'La-la land'
Christopher Johnson
(Fourth Edition 2000) says that the etymology of 'la-la
land' is "after L(os) A(ngeles)" and defines it as:
1. A place renowned for its frivolous activity.
2. A state of mind characterized by unrealistic
expectations or a lack of seriousness.
Is this not something of an insult to the people and
city of Los Angeles, or don't they even know (or care)
that 'la-la land' is apparently named after their city?
--
Christopher
CyberCypher
news:3F50120E...@yahoo.com:
It's so named because of Hollywood and the film industry. The
definition is not totally accurate, though, because the movie
producers are not only unrealistic in their expectations, but they
are deadly serious as well.
R F
On Sat, 30 Aug 2003, Christopher Johnson wrote:
> Is this not something of an insult to the people and
> city of Los Angeles, or don't they even know (or care)
> that 'la-la land' is apparently named after their city?
Would a BrE speaker say "named after" or "named for" there, or either
one? EMWTK (IWTK).
R J Valentine
The BrE speaker might be influenced by the quoted text just above it. I
know I tend to use terms and spellings consistent with what I'm commenting
on, where usually I might use different ones.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
LSMFT.
Bruce Tober
<chris_jo...@yahoo.com> on Sat, 30 Aug 2003 wrote:
>The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
>(Fourth Edition 2000) says that the etymology of 'la-la
>land' is "after L(os) A(ngeles)" and defines it as:
>
>1. A place renowned for its frivolous activity.
>2. A state of mind characterized by unrealistic
> expectations or a lack of seriousness.
>
>Is this not something of an insult to the people and
>city of Los Angeles,
Yes, and intended as such and to the people of Calif more generally.
> or don't they even know (or care)
The probably know, but not care.
>that 'la-la land' is apparently named after their city?
No apparent involved.
>
--
| Bruce Tober, <t...@star-dot-star.co.uk> , <http://www.star-dot-star.co.uk> |
| UK, +44-780-374-8255 (Mobile) +44-121-553-4284 (land) |
Bruce Tober
No, it's so-named (back in the '70s as I recall) due to the new-agey,
and other crazy attitudes and life-styles existent then and there.
Steve Hayes
Nah, it's that green hill nder the magic windmill, where La La lives with
Tinky Winky, Po and the other one.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Matti Lamprhey
> R F <rfon...@mail.wesleyan.edu> wrote:
> } On Sat, 30 Aug 2003, Christopher Johnson wrote:
> }
> }> Is this not something of an insult to the people and
> }> city of Los Angeles, or don't they even know (or care)
> }> that 'la-la land' is apparently named after their city?
> }
> } Would a BrE speaker say "named after" or "named for" there, or
> } either one? EMWTK (IWTK).
>
> The BrE speaker might be influenced by the quoted text just above it.
> I know I tend to use terms and spellings consistent with what I'm
> commenting on, where usually I might use different ones.
99.9% of BrE speakers would use "named after" there, the context
notwithstanding.
I must say that "named for" has a certain appeal, though. I might even
encourage its use for cases where, for example, a town names a new road
in honour of a town it's twinned with; "after" seems inappropriate
there.
Matti
Steve Howarth
"Christopher Johnson" <chris_jo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3F50120E...@yahoo.com...
There was a thread on this not so long ago, though maybe not on this NG.
I'm sure a search on Google would turn it up.
Steve Howarth
John Dean
How do you think the residents of Bumfuck Nebraska feel about it?
Disgusted
(of Tunbridge Wells)
John Varela
> In message <Xns93E7747F...@130.133.1.4>, CyberCypher
> <hui...@netscape.net> on Sat, 30 Aug 2003 wrote:
> >It's so named because of Hollywood and the film industry. The
> >definition is not totally accurate, though, because the movie
> >producers are not only unrealistic in their expectations, but they
> >are deadly serious as well.
>
> No, it's so-named (back in the '70s as I recall) due to the new-agey,
> and other crazy attitudes and life-styles existent then and there.
Superseding "the land of the fruits and the nuts".
--
John Varela
Michael West
"Bruce Tober" <t...@star-dot-star.co.uk> wrote in message
news:LnS4PLEH5DU$Ew...@btinternet.com...
> In message <Xns93E7747F...@130.133.1.4>, CyberCypher
> <hui...@netscape.net> on Sat, 30 Aug 2003 wrote:
> >Christopher Johnson <chris_jo...@yahoo.com> burbled
> >> Is this not something of an insult to the people and
> >> city of Los Angeles, or don't they even know (or care)
> >> that 'la-la land' is apparently named after their city?
> >
> >It's so named because of Hollywood and the film industry. The
> >definition is not totally accurate, though, because the movie
> >producers are not only unrealistic in their expectations, but they
> >are deadly serious as well.
>
> No, it's so-named (back in the '70s as I recall) due to the new-agey,
> and other crazy attitudes and life-styles existent then and there.
That may be part of the popular understanding of the term,
but as I understand your use of "new-agey" you are referring
to hippy and post-hippy culture, which was centered in the
Bay area and northward -- not Los Angeles.
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
(Expat Yank)
Bruce Tober
hington1.Level3.net>, John Varela <jav...@earthlink.net> on Sun, 31 Aug
thanks for the memories. I'd forgot it used to be called that also
(probably still is).
Bruce Tober
>That may be part of the popular understanding of the term,
>but as I understand your use of "new-agey" you are referring
>to hippy and post-hippy culture, which was centered in the
>Bay area and northward -- not Los Angeles.
I'm not talking hippies. I'm talking post hippy, new man, new woman,
tree and whale hugging, mantra spouting, primal screaming, politically
correct, I have very astute political opinions - trust them I'm an
actor, type new agey. And that was my understanding of why not just LA
but the entire state came to be known as LaLaLand.
R H Draney
>
>In message <XONIv5snBWKx-p...@dialup-171.75.33.189.Dial1.Was
>hington1.Level3.net>, John Varela <jav...@earthlink.net> on Sun, 31 Aug
>2003 wrote:
>>On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:03:51 UTC, Bruce Tober <t...@star-dot-star.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> No, it's so-named (back in the '70s as I recall) due to the new-agey,
>>> and other crazy attitudes and life-styles existent then and there.
>>
>>Superseding "the land of the fruits and the nuts".
>
>thanks for the memories. I'd forgot it used to be called that also
>(probably still is).
Go back still further...before the movies came along, Los Angeles and environs
were best known for their dairies...the nickname for the city circa 1900 was
"Queen of the Cow Counties"....r
Bruce Tober
<dado...@earthlink.net> on Sun, 31 Aug 2003 wrote:
>Bruce Tober filted:
>>
>>In message <XONIv5snBWKx-p...@dialup-171.75.33.189.Dial1.Was
>>hington1.Level3.net>, John Varela <jav...@earthlink.net> on Sun, 31 Aug
>>2003 wrote:
>>>star.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, it's so-named (back in the '70s as I recall) due to the new-agey,
>>>> and other crazy attitudes and life-styles existent then and there.
>>>
>>>Superseding "the land of the fruits and the nuts".
>>
>>thanks for the memories. I'd forgot it used to be called that also
>>(probably still is).
>
>Go back still further...before the movies came along, Los Angeles and environs
>were best known for their dairies...the nickname for the city circa 1900 was
>"Queen of the Cow Counties"....r
Never heard that one.
Anna Skipka
> In message <3f514237$0$97051$45be...@newscene.com>, Michael West
> <mbw...@removebigpond.net.au> on Sat, 30 Aug 2003 wrote:
> >
>
> >That may be part of the popular understanding of the term,
> >but as I understand your use of "new-agey" you are referring
> >to hippy and post-hippy culture, which was centered in the
> >Bay area and northward -- not Los Angeles.
>
> I'm not talking hippies. I'm talking post hippy, new man, new woman,
> tree and whale hugging, mantra spouting, primal screaming, politically
> correct, I have very astute political opinions - trust them I'm an
> actor, type new agey. And that was my understanding of why not just LA
> but the entire state came to be known as LaLaLand.
The New Age movement arose in the 1980s. Adherents take vitamins, wear
crystals, practice yoga, listen to whale song, read all those
pop-psychology books, and make remarks such as:
"It takes a village to raise a child."
"I feel you aren't really present in this conversation."
"I'm sensing a lot of deep aggression."
"The energy just wasn't right in the relationship, you know?"
"Science is a religion."
"You're such a linear thinker. Reality is circular, you know."
"Let's all try to channel positive thoughts!"
They don't throw parties, follow rock groups, smoke unknown herbal
substances, have orgies, dance, laugh, or borrow money from friends.
They think 41 and 43 were traumatized as children. They are deeply
suspicious about the goings-on at Roswell and Area 51.
New Agers are not confined to Southern California, unfortunately. I
personally have seen evidence of large contingents in Northern
California, Washington DC, and New England. At any rate, I don't think
New Agers can be blamed for the "La-la land" appellation. If I had to
guess, I'd say that Northern Californians invented the phrase in order
to distinguish themselves from those horrid movie-writing,
gas-guzzling, water-stealing Nixon lovers.
-skipka
Michael West
"Anna Skipka" <annas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> New Agers are not confined to Southern California, unfortunately. I
> personally have seen evidence of large contingents in Northern
> California, Washington DC, and New England. At any rate, I don't think
> New Agers can be blamed for the "La-la land" appellation. If I had to
> guess, I'd say that Northern Californians invented the phrase in order
> to distinguish themselves from those horrid movie-writing,
> gas-guzzling, water-stealing Nixon lovers.
To me, "La-la land" evokes the fantasy-living, superficial
qualities of the Hollywood beautiful people. All that other
new-agey stuff is not really central, though it may
or may not be a part of the lifestyle.
--
Michael West
Donna Richoux
Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang has 1984 as a first
cite for "La-La Land" meaning Los Angeles (in a list of nicknames).
Then, almost the same time, 1985, they have a first citation for a
different meaning, "a state of being out of touch with reality;
dreamland; also a tate of drunkenness -- usually constructed with 'in'."
I think I heard the second one first -- like 'being in cloud
cuckoo-land' -- before I heard it applied to LA. The coincidence in the
sounds was what made it clever.
--
Best - Donna Richoux
Steve Hayes
>Bruce Tober <t...@star-dot-star.co.uk> wrote in message news:<buUstKMepYU$Ew...@btinternet.com>...
>> In message <3f514237$0$97051$45be...@newscene.com>, Michael West
>> <mbw...@removebigpond.net.au> on Sat, 30 Aug 2003 wrote:
>> >
>>
>> >That may be part of the popular understanding of the term,
>> >but as I understand your use of "new-agey" you are referring
>> >to hippy and post-hippy culture, which was centered in the
>> >Bay area and northward -- not Los Angeles.
>>
>> I'm not talking hippies. I'm talking post hippy, new man, new woman,
>> tree and whale hugging, mantra spouting, primal screaming, politically
>> correct, I have very astute political opinions - trust them I'm an
>> actor, type new agey. And that was my understanding of why not just LA
>> but the entire state came to be known as LaLaLand.
>
>The New Age movement arose in the 1980s. Adherents take vitamins, wear
>crystals, practice yoga, listen to whale song, read all those
>pop-psychology books, and make remarks such as:
> "It takes a village to raise a child."
> "I feel you aren't really present in this conversation."
> "I'm sensing a lot of deep aggression."
What about (crossthread alert):
"I know you believe you understood what you thought I said, but I am not sure
you realise that what you heard is not what I meant".
> "The energy just wasn't right in the relationship, you know?"
> "Science is a religion."
> "You're such a linear thinker. Reality is circular, you know."
> "Let's all try to channel positive thoughts!"
>They don't throw parties, follow rock groups, smoke unknown herbal
>substances, have orgies, dance, laugh, or borrow money from friends.
>They think 41 and 43 were traumatized as children. They are deeply
>suspicious about the goings-on at Roswell and Area 51.
And I thought that the New Age started with "Hair" and "This is the dawning of
the Age of Aquarius".
Richard Maurer
Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang has 1984 as a first
cite for "La-La Land" meaning Los Angeles (in a list of nicknames).
Then, almost the same time, 1985, they have a first citation for a
different meaning, "a state of being out of touch with reality;
dreamland; also a tate of drunkenness -- usually constructed with 'in'."
I think I heard the second one first -- like 'being in cloud
cuckoo-land' -- before I heard it applied to LA. The coincidence in the
sounds was what made it clever.
[end quote] >>
I'll second that. I am sure that I heard them in Donna's order,
but I can't recall the years.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
felix
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 02:54:02 GMT, Christopher Johnson
> <chris_jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
> >(Fourth Edition 2000) says that the etymology of 'la-la
> >land' is "after L(os) A(ngeles)" and defines it as:
> >
> >1. A place renowned for its frivolous activity.
> >2. A state of mind characterized by unrealistic
> > expectations or a lack of seriousness.
> >
> >Is this not something of an insult to the people and
> >city of Los Angeles, or don't they even know (or care)
> >that 'la-la land' is apparently named after their city?
>
> Nah, it's that green hill nder the magic windmill, where La La lives with
> Tinky Winky, Po and the other one.
Lala also means sleep in Swahili.
Lala salaama, peaceful sleep, is the common 'goodnight' phrase.
felix
Spehro Pefhany
Richoux) wrote:
>I think I heard the second one first -- like 'being in cloud
>cuckoo-land' -- before I heard it applied to LA.
That's also my recollection as well. The image is of an "out of it"
adult or a child softly singing to herself in a dream world. But AH4
also claims "la la land" is after Los Angeles.
>The coincidence in the sounds was what made it clever.
Sounds? I've never heard "LA" pronounced any other way than ell-eh,
which is why the connection seems clever- a pun on a homograph wrapped
up in a jab at a favorite target.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Spehro Pefhany
<sp...@interlog.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:46:41 +0200, the renowned tr...@euronet.nl (Donna
>Richoux) wrote:
>
>
>>I think I heard the second one first -- like 'being in cloud
>>cuckoo-land' -- before I heard it applied to LA.
>
>That's also my recollection as well.
<cough> Sorry about the above sentence.
There's also "lal·land", a "Scottish variant of LOWLAND".
R H Draney
>
>On 31 Aug 2003 12:28:27 -0700, annas...@yahoo.com (Anna Skipka) wrote:
>
>>The New Age movement arose in the 1980s. Adherents take vitamins, wear
>>crystals, practice yoga, listen to whale song, read all those
>>pop-psychology books, and make remarks such as:
>> "It takes a village to raise a child."
>> "I feel you aren't really present in this conversation."
>> "I'm sensing a lot of deep aggression."
>
>the Age of Aquarius".
That was neither Los Angeles nor San Francisco, but New York....
Any road, New Age started a lot earlier than any of that...I'm thinking Helena
Petrovna Blavatsky and Emile Coue would number among the pioneers....r
Spehro Pefhany
<dado...@earthlink.net> wrote:
M-W says:
Main Entry: New Age
Function: adjective
Date: 1956
1 : of, relating to, or being a late 20th century social movement
drawing on ancient concepts especially from Eastern and American
Indian traditions and incorporating such themes as holism, concern for
nature, spirituality, and metaphysics
2 : of, relating to, or being a soft soothing form of instrumental
music often used to promote relaxation
So, it's well into middle age by now.
Steve Hayes
>haye...@yahoo.com (Steve Hayes) wrote in message news:<3f504186....@news.saix.net>...
>> >Is this not something of an insult to the people and
>> >city of Los Angeles, or don't they even know (or care)
>> >that 'la-la land' is apparently named after their city?
>>
>> Nah, it's that green hill nder the magic windmill, where La La lives with
>> Tinky Winky, Po and the other one.
>
>Lala also means sleep in Swahili.
>Lala salaama, peaceful sleep, is the common 'goodnight' phrase.
As it does in Zulu.
Whenever I've heard "Lala land" I've thought of it as something "cloud-cuckoo
land", a dream-land far removed from reality.
Ben Zimmer
>
> << [Donna Richoux]
> Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang has 1984 as a first
> cite for "La-La Land" meaning Los Angeles (in a list of nicknames).
>
> Then, almost the same time, 1985, they have a first citation for a
> different meaning, "a state of being out of touch with reality;
> dreamland; also a tate of drunkenness -- usually constructed with 'in'."
>
> I think I heard the second one first -- like 'being in cloud
> cuckoo-land' -- before I heard it applied to LA. The coincidence in the
> sounds was what made it clever.
> [end quote] >>
>
> I'll second that. I am sure that I heard them in Donna's order,
> but I can't recall the years.
For this ordering to be plausible, someone needs to find a non-LA
attestation of "la-la land" before 1979, the date of the first Nexis
citation of the term as slang for LA (Wash. Post, Nov. 8, 1979, in an
article about SNL writer Michael O'Donoghue going to Hollywood: "But
now, it's off to La-La land, and his movie deal.").
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DD083F5...@midway.uchicago.edu
Brian Wickham
I agree with Donna also. Although I can't site any occurrences I'm
sure I heard the term La-La Land, for state of benign confusion, well
before it became applied to Los Angeles.
L.A. already had a long history as being considered a nutty place,
i.e. "Land of Fruits and Nuts" plus the idea that the USA was tilted
slightly toward the southeast and everything loose was rolling into
Southern California. The application of La-La Land to L.A. was a
simple jump to make.
Brian Wickham
Spehro Pefhany
<bwickham@NO~SPAM.nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>L.A. already had a long history as being considered a nutty place,
>i.e. "Land of Fruits and Nuts" plus the idea that the USA was tilted
>slightly toward the southeast and everything loose was rolling into
>Southern California. The application of La-La Land to L.A. was a
>simple jump to make.
When did California become (known as) the "land of fruits, nuts and
flakes"?
Anna Skipka
>
> M-W says:
>
> Main Entry: New Age
> Function: adjective
> Date: 1956
> 1 : of, relating to, or being a late 20th century social movement
> drawing on ancient concepts especially from Eastern and American
> Indian traditions and incorporating such themes as holism, concern for
> nature, spirituality, and metaphysics
How odd. Is 1956 now considered late 20th century? Or is M-W
suggesting that the term was coined by a predictor of future words and
trends? (As in _Predicting New Words_, Allan Metcalf.)
Other sources give later dates:
[AHD4]
New Age
adj.
1. Of or relating to a complex of spiritual and consciousness-raising
movements originating in the 1980s and covering a range of themes from
a belief in spiritualism and reincarnation to advocacy of holistic
approaches to health and ecology.
----
[encarta]
New Age adjective
of modern movement emphasizing spirituality: relating to a cultural
movement dating from the 1980s that emphasizes spiritual
consciousness, and often involves belief in reincarnation and
astrology and the practice of meditation, vegetarianism, and holistic
medicine
----
[columbia encyclopedia, 6th ed.]
a term popularized in the 1980s to describe a wide-ranging set of
beliefs and practices that are an outgrowth of the counterculture of
the 1960s and 70s in the United States.
----
[britannica]
New Age movement
movement that spread through the occult and metaphysical religious
communities in the 1970s and '80s.
----
-skipka
Spehro Pefhany
Skipka) wrote:
>Spehro Pefhany <sp...@interlog.com> wrote in message news:<7lv7lvcdjp1i6rs3k...@4ax.com>...
>>
>> M-W says:
>>
>> Main Entry: New Age
>> Function: adjective
>> Date: 1956
>> 1 : of, relating to, or being a late 20th century social movement
>> drawing on ancient concepts especially from Eastern and American
>> Indian traditions and incorporating such themes as holism, concern for
>> nature, spirituality, and metaphysics
>
>How odd. Is 1956 now considered late 20th century?
Don't think so.
>Or is M-W
>suggesting that the term was coined by a predictor of future words and
>trends? (As in _Predicting New Words_, Allan Metcalf.)
That's my guess- the word was coined in relation to some prototype
early movement, well before it became popular and settled in Sedona.
This dangerously purple web page:
http://religion-cults.com/Secret/New-Age/New_Age.htm claims:
"The term "New Age", was coined by the spirit medium "Alice Bailey" of
the Theosophical Society of America, who died in 1949, but it became
common parlance after the musical "Hair" launched the concept of the
Age of Aquarius on a popular and international scale."
Could Alice have coined it in 1956, 7 years after her death? Here's a
web page that references "New Age Magazine" from 1950.
http://freemasonwatch.freepress-freespeech.com/masonry_kabbalah.html
Christopher Johnson
[..]
I've followed this thread pretty carefully (especially since I
was the one who started it) and I'm beginning to suspect that
la-la land did not originate as a reference to Los Angeles at
all, based on the various posts I've read.
I'm almost beginning to think that la-la land (as a 'dream world')...
http://ikenam.netian.com/homepage/slang/peak-english/L.htm#la la land
.... may indeed have originated from something like the
Swahili/Zulu words (meaning 'sleep' )that others have mentioned
in this thread.
Also, is it just a coincidence that 'la-la' and 'lulla(by)' sound
so similar? AHD (4th edition) says this about the etymology of
'lullaby':
"Obsolete lulla, word used in lullabies (from Middle English
lullai, from lullen, to lull; see lull)"
Is there a connection, even if it's just a similarity of
alliteration, between 'la-la' (land) and 'lulla' (by)?
--
Christopher
Spehro Pefhany
<chris_jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I've followed this thread pretty carefully (especially since I
>was the one who started it) and I'm beginning to suspect that
>la-la land did not originate as a reference to Los Angeles at
>all, based on the various posts I've read.
>
>I'm almost beginning to think that la-la land (as a 'dream world')...
>
>http://ikenam.netian.com/homepage/slang/peak-english/L.htm#la la land
>
>.... may indeed have originated from something like the
>Swahili/Zulu words (meaning 'sleep' )that others have mentioned
>in this thread.
>
>Also, is it just a coincidence that 'la-la' and 'lulla(by)' sound
>so similar? AHD (4th edition) says this about the etymology of
>'lullaby':
Isn't "Rock-a-bye Baby" traditionally sung with a soft la-la-la chorus
as the baby is drifting off?
> "Obsolete lulla, word used in lullabies (from Middle English
> lullai, from lullen, to lull; see lull)"
>
>Is there a connection, even if it's just a similarity of
>alliteration, between 'la-la' (land) and 'lulla' (by)?
Is that sound particularly lulling to babies? This looks like it might
scare the beejeezus out of a little baby, but is apparently lyrics for
Brahms' lullaby:
---
Guten Abend, gute Nacht, Mit Rosen bedacht,
Mit Naeglein besteckt, schlupf unter die Deck'
Morgen frueh, wenn Gott will, wirst du wieder geweckt
Morgen frueh, wenn Gott will, wirst du wieder geweckt
Guten Abend, gute Nacht, Von Englein bewacht
Die zeigen im Traum, dir Christkindleins Baum
Schlaf nun selig und suess, Schau im Traum's Paradies
Schlaf nun selig und suess, Schau im Traum's Paradies
---
Richard Maurer
[end quote] >>
<< []
[end quote] >>
Richard Maurer
Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang has 1984 as a first
cite for "La-La Land" meaning Los Angeles (in a list of nicknames).
Then, almost the same time, 1985, they have a first citation for a
different meaning, "a state of being out of touch with reality;
dreamland; also a tate of drunkenness -- usually constructed with 'in'."
I think I heard the second one first -- like 'being in cloud
cuckoo-land' -- before I heard it applied to LA. The coincidence in the
sounds was what made it clever.
[end quote] >>
<< [Richard Maurer]
I'll second that. I am sure that I heard them in Donna's order,
but I can't recall the years.
[end quote] >>
<< [Ben Zimmer]
For this ordering to be plausible, someone needs to find a non-LA
attestation of "la-la land" before 1979, the date of the first Nexis
citation of the term as slang for LA (Wash. Post, Nov. 8, 1979, in an
article about SNL writer Michael O'Donoghue going to Hollywood: "But
now, it's off to La-La land, and his movie deal.").
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DD083F5...@midway.uchicago.edu
[end quote] >>
I mostly agree [1]. I was reporting what I heard.
If the first published uses are as reported, the word seems to have gone
underground for a few years before popping up again.
Maybe it was one of those words that was just too slangy to print,
except in magazines even less mainstream than Rolling Stone.
The first usenet use I saw is on Jun 1, 1985. by Steven List
[ ... ]
The ls command went bananas, especially with the -R
option. The du command went off into lalaland.
but Usenet archives are pretty skimpy before that time.
Do the Nexis searches include the Los Angeles Times?
That is where I first saw the LA use. First use in LA Times?
[1] I still think it likely that the FantasyLand use preceded the
LA use by at least days or minutes. There was plenty of time --
Shangri-La was filmed in 1937, and Disneyland (if needed)
opened in 1955.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> The first usenet use I saw is on Jun 1, 1985. by Steven List
> [ ... ]
> The ls command went bananas, especially with the -R
> option. The du command went off into lalaland.
>
> but Usenet archives are pretty skimpy before that time.
There's an earlier one on June 24, 1983, by toms@syteka, in
net.sf-lovers (AKA the SF-LOVERS mailing list):
At last a cogent, logical and appropriate posting about
Lucas-lala-land films.
But that's neither early enough to settle the question nor unambiguous
enough in meaning.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |As the judge remarked the day that
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | he acquitted my Aunt Hortense,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |To be smut
|It must be ut-
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |Terly without redeeming social
(650)857-7572 | importance.
| Tom Lehrer
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Christopher Johnson
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:40:04 GMT, the renowned Christopher Johnson
> <chris_jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I've followed this thread pretty carefully (especially since I
> >was the one who started it) and I'm beginning to suspect that
> >la-la land did not originate as a reference to Los Angeles at
> >all, based on the various posts I've read.
> >
> >I'm almost beginning to think that la-la land (as a 'dream world')...
> >
> >http://ikenam.netian.com/homepage/slang/peak-english/L.htm#la la land
> >
> >.... may indeed have originated from something like the
> >Swahili/Zulu words (meaning 'sleep' )that others have mentioned
> >in this thread.
> >
> >Also, is it just a coincidence that 'la-la' and 'lulla(by)' sound
> >so similar? AHD (4th edition) says this about the etymology of
> >'lullaby':
>
> Isn't "Rock-a-bye Baby" traditionally sung with a soft la-la-la chorus
> as the baby is drifting off?
>
> > "Obsolete lulla, word used in lullabies (from Middle English
> > lullai, from lullen, to lull; see lull)"
> >
> >Is there a connection, even if it's just a similarity of
> >alliteration, between 'la-la' (land) and 'lulla' (by)?
>
> Is that sound particularly lulling to babies? This looks like it might
> scare the beejeezus out of a little baby, but is apparently lyrics for
> Brahms' lullaby:
I do rememeber an episode of 'The Simpsons' in which the
true potential horror of "Rock-a-bye Baby" was focussed
on in graphic detail; funny and scary at the same time...
--
Christopher
Aaron J. Dinkin
Here's OED's first definition for "New Age" and first five citations:
: A new era of human history; spec. a name given to the Age of Aquarius
: which (according to astrological progression) the world has recently
: entered or is due to enter in the 21st cent., and which is believed to
: signal the beginning of a new spiritual awareness and collective
: consciousness. Cf. AQUARIUS n. 3 and CONCORDIUM n.
: ?á?áIn the specific sense orig. heralded in theosophical and mystical
: writings of the late 19th cent., and from the 1970s associated more
: generally with a popular ÔÇÿalternativeÔÇÖ culture which involves a
: rejection of many modern Western-style values in favour of a more
: integrated or ÔÇÿholisticÔÇÖ approach combining aspects of astrology,
: Christianity, and other religious and philosophical thought, and
: extending into such additional areas as medicine and ecology.
:
:?á1843 (title) The new age, concordium gazette and temperance advocate.
: 1894 (title) The new age: a weekly record of Christian culture, social
: service, and literary life.
: 1908 New Age Mag. I. 377/2, I am the Glory of the Glad New Age; I sing
: of Freedom and of Power.
: 1944 A. A. BAILEY Discipleship in New Age i. 32 This will usher in The
: New Age wherein five kingdoms in nature will be recognised as existing
: side by side on earth.
: 1971 D. SPANGLER Revelation (1976) xi. 108 We are now leaving one age
: and entering another; hence, the scientific basis for calling this a
: New Age.
So I guess the term really was coined to refer to future trends.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Ben Zimmer
Oddly enough, the LA Times only offers a rolling six-month archive on
LexisNexis Academic. And ProQuest only covers 1985 to the present (with
1881-1923 in the Historical Newspapers database). So we're missing the
crucial years.
As support for the idea that "La-La Land" first referred to LA (and was
only generalized in the mid-'80s), here are the first half-dozen
citations on Nexis (all are from the Washington Post-- the first is
slightly earlier than the one mentioned above):
Washington Post; February 4, 1979
Fashion Notes
LOS ANGELES -- Monday night in Lalaland is not like Monday
night in, say, Washington.
Washington Post; November 8, 1979
Mr. Mike's Mania; Sick Humor, Very Well Indulged
But now, it's off to La-La land, and his movie deal.
Washington Post; May 30, 1980
Personalities
Meanwhile, in LaLaLand, Beverly Hills hairstylist Vidal
Sassoon has settled his divorce case by agreeing to pay his
ex-wife about $5 million over the next 10 years.
Washington Post; October 8, 1980
Players; Serious Playing
"Catching the red-eye back from Lalaland," he says.
This means he took a late flight from Los Angeles.
Washington Post; October 14, 1980
'Reunion': Winning an 'H' for Heart
Dobson flew all the way from Los Angeles to New Jersey...
Dobson is waiting for his plane to fly him back to Lalaland...
Washington Post; January 2, 1981, Friday, Final Edition
Cranks and Quirks in Lala Land,
The Planet's Last Off-Center Frontier
In Part Five of our survey of American eccentrics and their
habitats we embrace Southern California. Frankly, there were
those who cautioned the editors against including this region
and its peoples, saying: "There is nothing eccentric about
Lala land, insofar as it profits itself by intentional
strangeness; therefore it should be excluded from your study."
Writers for the Post's Style section regularly referred to LA as
"La(-)la Land" well into the mid-'80s (seems like it was practically
house style for a while).
Richard Maurer
[end quote] >>
I was against the idea before, but I thought of a way that it might have
started with the city.
Suppose Spiro Angnew was considering the significance of the
repeated sounds in the address 99 New Avenue, NY, NY.
What would happen if other cities repeated their names?
NO, NO -- New Orleans
KC, KC -- Kansas City
LA, LA -- Los Angeles
Add the "land" and it is irresistable.
Lars Eighner
<01c37387$cd522dc0$5609510c@default>,
the lovely and talented Richard Maurer
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Suppose Spiro Angnew was considering the significance of the
> repeated sounds in the address 99 New Avenue, NY, NY.
> What would happen if other cities repeated their names?
> NO, NO -- New Orleans
Not necessary as it has already stolen a LA to be NO-LA.
> KC, KC -- Kansas City
> LA, LA -- Los Angeles
> Add the "land" and it is irresistable.
> -- ---------------------------------------------
> Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
> Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Somebody really ought to be collecting spam-proofed addresses and
their sig clues.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eig...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
War on Terrorism: Treat Viewers like Mushrooms
"It seems perverse to focus too much on the casualties or hardship in
Afghanistan." -Walter Isaacson, _CNN_
Mike Lyle
[...]
> > -- ---------------------------------------------
> > Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
> > Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Somebody really ought to be collecting spam-proofed addresses and
> their sig clues.
Bet Evan's on the case already. A couple of years ago in these pages I
explained the origin of the Usenet motto, "Semper Nospam in addressum
ponite".
Mike.
R H Draney
>
>Suppose Spiro Angnew was considering the significance of the
>repeated sounds in the address 99 New Avenue, NY, NY.
>What would happen if other cities repeated their names?
>
> NO, NO -- New Orleans
> KC, KC -- Kansas City
> LA, LA -- Los Angeles
Might actually work if Los Angeles were in Louisiana, but apart from "NY, NY",
the only states that have real "populated places" with such reduplication are
"WY, WY" and "ME, ME"...(it'd be nice if they'd switch places; then you could
address a letter to "WY, ME")....
I've got a database of towns named for states, begun when it struck me that they
cover such a vast range on the scale of importance...Oklahoma City is the
capital and largest city in Oklahoma...but Kansas City, Kansas is a relatively
unimportant suburb of the larger Kansas City across the river in Missouri...and
Arizona City, Arizona is little more than two filling stations and a fruit
stand....
Now, if you're in the market for irrelevant minutia, I found a list of such
towns in reciprocal distribution, such as Alabama, Kentucky and Kentucky,
Alabama...I can't seem to find where I jotted them down, but there were about
eight such pairs, and the same state figured in three of them....
>Add the "land" and it is irresistable.
Well, sure...land is the most valuable thing there is in Los Angeles....r
Jerry Friedman
...
> The New Age movement arose in the 1980s. Adherents take vitamins,
And herbal supplements. Well, at *least* echinacea.
> wear
> crystals, practice yoga, listen to whale song, read all those
> pop-psychology books, and make remarks such as:
> "It takes a village to raise a child."
> "I feel you aren't really present in this conversation."
> "I'm sensing a lot of deep aggression."
> "The energy just wasn't right in the relationship, you know?"
> "Science is a religion."
> "You're such a linear thinker. Reality is circular, you know."
> "Let's all try to channel positive thoughts!"
> They don't throw parties,
I think they do, but nothing stronger than wine is served, and only
microbrewery beer. I mean, what are the Rainbow Warrior and Burning
Man Festivals but parties?
> follow rock groups, smoke unknown herbal
> substances, have orgies, dance,
Maybe in tribal styles.
> laugh, or borrow money from friends.
> They think 41 and 43
Who?
> were traumatized as children. They are deeply
> suspicious about the goings-on at Roswell and Area 51.
Suspicious nothing. They *know*.
I like your list, and it could go on. A high point may have been
reached ten or fifteen years ago when you could buy tachyon
generators. Those zippy little particles are good for your health.
> New Agers are not confined to Southern California, unfortunately. I
> personally have seen evidence of large contingents in Northern
> California,
For possibly inaccurate reasons, I think of Marin County as the source
of the whole thing.
> Washington DC, and New England.
You can add northern New Mexico.
> At any rate, I don't think
> New Agers can be blamed for the "La-la land" appellation. If I had to
> guess, I'd say that Northern Californians invented the phrase in order
> to distinguish themselves from those horrid movie-writing,
> gas-guzzling, water-stealing Nixon lovers.
The phrase I've heard is "the Southland", but that may be out of
style.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:38:30 GMT, the renowned Brian Wickham
> <bwickham@NO~SPAM.nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >L.A. already had a long history as being considered a nutty place,
> >i.e. "Land of Fruits and Nuts" plus the idea that the USA was tilted
> >slightly toward the southeast
Southwest?
> and everything loose was rolling into
> >Southern California. The application of La-La Land to L.A. was a
> >simple jump to make.
>
> When did California become (known as) the "land of fruits, nuts and
> flakes"?
Finally! The canonical form is
Why is California the Granola State?
I give up.
Because once you get through the fruits and nuts, there's nothing left
but flakes.
I'm pretty sure I heard that in the mid or late '70s from one of my
Marin cousins.
The earliest reference I've come across to the craziness of
California, especially SoCal, is the beginning of Robert Heinlein's
1941 short story "...And He Built a Crooked House"
<http://tinyurl.com/me7t>
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Oliver
> and Arizona City, Arizona is little more than two filling stations
> and a fruit stand....
California City, California is about like that, I think. But
they do have a drop zone.
mickwick
[...]
>> New Agers are not confined to Southern California, unfortunately. I
>> personally have seen evidence of large contingents in Northern
>> California,
>
>For possibly inaccurate reasons, I think of Marin County as the source
>of the whole thing.
>
>> Washington DC, and New England.
>
>You can add northern New Mexico.
And Totnes in Devon, and Camden Lock in London.
There's also the annual Festival of Mind and Body. I actually attended
that one year. A writer-friend was going and I assumed that he was going
either for research or to have a laugh, so I went with him (to the Royal
Horticultural Society of all places) and sniggered and sneered in the
best metropolitan fashion until I found myself wandering around the
exhibits alone - it turned out that the poor chap was actually there to
find something that would give meaning to his life.
Anyway, the Festival was a mess, a ragbag of disparate and often
mutually contradictory beliefs. The sincere lunacy of aural photography
was sandwiched between a man in a suit selling overpriced electronic
back massagers (As seen on TV!) and a woman behind a curtain
demonstrating tantric sex yoga techniques. Baha'i, which I had always
thought of as a respectable religion, was there alongside David Icke and
his track-suited lizards. Crystals and whale-song tapes at one stall,
heavy metal Goth bondage gear at the next. Homeopathy competed with
ginseng (at the same stall). The amiable nutters of the Interplanetary
Society faced a wall of books on Freudian psychology.
Holistic? I don't think so.
--
Mick 'Kiss my aura, Dora' wick
Don Aitken
wrote:
>There's also the annual Festival of Mind and Body. I actually attended
>that one year. A writer-friend was going and I assumed that he was going
>either for research or to have a laugh, so I went with him (to the Royal
>Horticultural Society of all places) and sniggered and sneered in the
>best metropolitan fashion until I found myself wandering around the
>exhibits alone - it turned out that the poor chap was actually there to
>find something that would give meaning to his life.
>
>Anyway, the Festival was a mess, a ragbag of disparate and often
>mutually contradictory beliefs. The sincere lunacy of aural photography
>was sandwiched between a man in a suit selling overpriced electronic
>back massagers (As seen on TV!) and a woman behind a curtain
>demonstrating tantric sex yoga techniques. Baha'i, which I had always
>thought of as a respectable religion, was there alongside David Icke and
>his track-suited lizards. Crystals and whale-song tapes at one stall,
>heavy metal Goth bondage gear at the next. Homeopathy competed with
>ginseng (at the same stall). The amiable nutters of the Interplanetary
>Society faced a wall of books on Freudian psychology.
>
Splendid description, but I think you have the wrong target in the
last sentence. It sounds like the Aetherius Society ("voice of the
Interplanetary Parliament"). The British Interplanetary Society is a
scientifically respectable body, and I don't think they would have
anything to do with this event.
--
Don Aitken
R H Draney
>
>There's also the annual Festival of Mind and Body. I actually attended
>that one year. A writer-friend was going and I assumed that he was going
>either for research or to have a laugh, so I went with him (to the Royal
>Horticultural Society of all places) and sniggered and sneered in the
>best metropolitan fashion until I found myself wandering around the
>exhibits alone - it turned out that the poor chap was actually there to
>find something that would give meaning to his life.
>
>Anyway, the Festival was a mess, a ragbag of disparate and often
>mutually contradictory beliefs. The sincere lunacy of aural photography
>was sandwiched between a man in a suit selling overpriced electronic
>back massagers (As seen on TV!) and a woman behind a curtain
>demonstrating tantric sex yoga techniques. Baha'i, which I had always
>thought of as a respectable religion, was there alongside David Icke and
>his track-suited lizards. Crystals and whale-song tapes at one stall,
>heavy metal Goth bondage gear at the next. Homeopathy competed with
>ginseng (at the same stall). The amiable nutters of the Interplanetary
>Society faced a wall of books on Freudian psychology.
Sorry I missed it; it sounds like a hoot...the best I can offer in return for
your review comes from a recent visit I made to a health-food store (ran out of
lysine and DLPA)...as I'm amusing myself reading the label of a bottle of Dr
Bronner's liquid soap, I notice on the top shelf a display of ear candles...aha,
sez I, and pick up a bagged pair to look closer...there, at the bottom of the
label, read the legend: "for entertainment purposes only"....
In a world of reality TV, monster-truck rallies, and Adam Sandler movies, it's
nice to know there are still people who can be entertained by sticking things in
their ears and setting them on fire....r
mickwick
>Splendid description, but I think you have the wrong target in the
>last sentence. It sounds like the Aetherius Society ("voice of the
>Interplanetary Parliament"). The British Interplanetary Society is a
>scientifically respectable body, and I don't think they would have
>anything to do with this event.
Thanks. You are spot on. It was the Aetherius Society, not the other lot
(who I believe used to have offices overlooking Vauxhall Bridge).
The Aetherius Society was founded by a Shropshire taxi-driver who had
come close to death in a Bayswater bedsit. Here in Shropshire, my
nearest taxi firm doubles as a funeral parlour. Do you think there's a
connection?
--
Mickwick
M. J. Powell
<mick...@use.reply.to> writes
Depends on how they drive.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Anna Skipka
> annas...@yahoo.com (Anna Skipka) wrote in message news:<712e5608.03083...@posting.google.com>...
> ...
>
> > The New Age movement arose in the 1980s. Adherents take vitamins,
>
> And herbal supplements. Well, at *least* echinacea.
You're absolutely right! I'd forgotten about the echinacea.
>
> > wear
> > crystals, practice yoga, listen to whale song, read all those
> > pop-psychology books, and make remarks such as:
> > "It takes a village to raise a child."
> > "I feel you aren't really present in this conversation."
> > "I'm sensing a lot of deep aggression."
> > "The energy just wasn't right in the relationship, you know?"
> > "Science is a religion."
> > "You're such a linear thinker. Reality is circular, you know."
> > "Let's all try to channel positive thoughts!"
> > They don't throw parties,
>
> I think they do, but nothing stronger than wine is served, and only
> microbrewery beer. I mean, what are the Rainbow Warrior and Burning
> Man Festivals but parties?
Burning Man is one wild party. But is it New Age-y? I think of it as
the product of hippie culture's late fling with guerrilla marketing.
> > follow rock groups, smoke unknown herbal
> > substances, have orgies, dance,
>
> Maybe in tribal styles.
>
> > laugh, or borrow money from friends.
> > They think 41 and 43
>
> Who?
Sorry. Bush and Bush.
> > were traumatized as children. They are deeply
> > suspicious about the goings-on at Roswell and Area 51.
>
> Suspicious nothing. They *know*.
>
> I like your list, and it could go on. A high point may have been
> reached ten or fifteen years ago when you could buy tachyon
> generators. Those zippy little particles are good for your health.
Any relation to orgone boxes?
> > New Agers are not confined to Southern California, unfortunately. I
> > personally have seen evidence of large contingents in Northern
> > California,
>
> For possibly inaccurate reasons, I think of Marin County as the source
> of the whole thing.
I wouldn't be at all surprised. If not the originators, Marinizens
certainly would have been among the early adopters.
-skipka
mickwick
>In a world of reality TV, monster-truck rallies, and Adam Sandler
>movies, it's nice to know there are still people who can be entertained
>by sticking things in their ears and setting them on fire....r
Ear candles - who could resist a Google like that?
Returns worldwide: 21,600
Returns UK only: 4,430
See in particular:
--
Mickwick
mickwick
>In message <ghidjnA4cfW$Ew...@shropshire.plus.com>, mickwick
>>The Aetherius Society was founded by a Shropshire taxi-driver who had
>>come close to death in a Bayswater bedsit. Here in Shropshire, my
>>nearest taxi firm doubles as a funeral parlour. Do you think there's a
>>connection?
>
>Depends on how they drive.
Slowly.
I know this is unfair, because we all die and we all need to be dealt
with after death, but it's very creepy being driven home after dark by
someone you know has been handling corpses all day. Perhaps that's why
I've only summoned one taxi in eight years.
--
Mickwick
Jerry Friedman
Did the drivers ever 'ave that Elvis in the back of the cab?
--
Jerry Friedman
mickwick
>Did the drivers ever 'ave that Elvis in the back of the cab?
No, but they've probably had Pete Postlethwaite.
--
Mickwick
david56
> In alt.usage.english, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> >Did the drivers ever 'ave that Elvis in the back of the cab?
>
> No, but they've probably had Pete Postlethwaite.
Warrington's favourite son.
--
David
I say what it occurs to me to say.
=====
The address is valid today, but I change it periodically.
mickwick
>mick...@use.reply.to spake thus:
>> No, but they've probably had Pete Postlethwaite.
>
>Warrington's favourite son.
By 'eck, he's ours now. Wanna make some'at of it?
--
Mickwick