English as a reputed world language

[Vinny Burgoo]

It seems that the dominant meaning of 'reputed' in South Asia is
'respected' rather than 'purported'. For example:

Sheikh Hasina is a Bangladeshi politician and current Prime
Minister of Bangladesh. ... She is the eldest of five children
of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, the founding father (and first
president) of Bangladesh and widow of a reputed nuclear
scientist
-- Wikipedia (where commas are rationed)

Shanta Sriram, reputed builders in Hyderabad ...
-- a boast at Santa Shiram's website, India

Liaquat Ali Khan - The most reputed Prime Minister of Pakistan
-- a forum thread commemorating Pakistan's first PM

Whither one world, one language, in English usage?

--
VB

[Joachim Pense]

Am 04.02.2012 19:51, schrieb Vinny Burgoo:
> It seems that the dominant meaning of 'reputed' in South Asia is
> 'respected' rather than 'purported'. For example:

I thought this was the dominant meaning of "reputed" in standard English
as well. Am I mislead?

Joachim

[Donna Richoux]

COCA (the American collection) shows a small handful of uses like "a
wizard of great repute" but much larger list of ones like:

- a reputed stronghold of the New Breeds
- a reputed associate of the Gambino crime family
- a reputed campaign chest of some $21 million

As Vinny said, "purported," or "has the reputation of being." Handy
journalistic short-hand for "somebody says but not us."

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:10:31 +0100, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:

The OED gives both senses.

The one VB is commenting on may be the earlier by a few years judging by
the quotations.

1. Held in good or high repute; reputable.
Outside Indian English, now chiefly with adverbs, as
internationally reputed, etc.

See also well(-)reputed adj.

?1532 Glasse of Truthe sig. F3v, Dyuers of the moste reputed
personages in lernynge..haue sayd..that if this matrimony were to
be made, they wolde neuer condescende vnto it.
1549 T. Chaloner tr. Erasmus Praise of Folie 8 He preferred
also the Ideote, and simple vulgars, before other learned and
reputed persons.
a1625 F. Beaumont & J. Fletcher Captaine v. i, in Comedies &
Trag. (1647) sig. Ii3/1, Am I at length reputed?
a1641 R. Montagu Acts & Monuments (1642) 245 So grave and
reputed an Historian as is Iosephus.
....
2.
a. Generally believed, accounted, or reckoned (to be something
specified); spec. in legal phrases, as reputed owner, etc.

1559 J. Knox Copie of Epist. 92 He be of the reputed enemie to
God, and therfore vnworthie to reigne aboue his people.
1576 Act 18 Eliz. c. 3 §2 The Mother and reputed Father of such
Bastard Child.
a1616 Shakespeare King John (1623) i. i. 136 The reputed son of
Cordelion.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Leslie Danks]

Yes. Thesaurus.com defines "repute" (noun) as "fame", and as
"honor" [sic], and lists exclusively positive attributes, for example:

<quote>
character, chastity, courage, decency, dignity, fairness, good name, good
report, goodness, honestness, honesty
...
position, preeminence, prominence, public esteem, rank*, recognition,
regard, renown, rep, report, reputation, splendor, standing, stardom,
station, superiority, éclat
[/quote]

<http://thesaurus.com/browse/Repute?fromAsk=true&o=100074>

"Someone of repute" would always be interpreted positively.

Nonetheless, negative usages also exist: "a house of ill repute", for
example, would have negative associations for most people.

I, too, have met "repute" as a verb only in the sense of "purported" or
"imagined", etc.

--
Les
(BrE)

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 18:51:07 +0000, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>It seems that the dominant meaning of 'reputed' in South Asia is
>'respected' rather than 'purported'. For example:
>
> Sheikh Hasina is a Bangladeshi politician and current Prime
> Minister of Bangladesh. ... She is the eldest of five children
> of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, the founding father (and first
> president) of Bangladesh and widow of a reputed nuclear
> scientist
> -- Wikipedia (where commas are rationed)
>
> Shanta Sriram, reputed builders in Hyderabad ...
> -- a boast at Santa Shiram's website, India
>
> Liaquat Ali Khan - The most reputed Prime Minister of Pakistan

Malapropism for "reputable", Shirley.

> -- a forum thread commemorating Pakistan's first PM
>
>Whither one world, one language, in English usage?

--

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

You are misled.

[R H Draney]

Steve Hayes filted:

>
>On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 19:58:08 +0100, Joachim Pense <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>
>>Am 04.02.2012 19:51, schrieb Vinny Burgoo:
>>> It seems that the dominant meaning of 'reputed' in South Asia is
>>> 'respected' rather than 'purported'. For example:
>>
>>I thought this was the dominant meaning of "reputed" in standard English
>>as well. Am I mislead?
>
>You are misled.

To connect it with a related and perhaps more familiar word, the standard
meaning is "having a reputation"...the more recent refinement interprets this as
"having *only* a reputation"....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> >It seems that the dominant meaning of 'reputed' in South Asia is
> >'respected' rather than 'purported'. For example:
>

> Malapropism for "reputable", Shirley.

Merriam-Webster online:

reputed /adj/
1 : having a good repute : reputable
2 : being such according to reputation or general belief
<a reputed mobster>

... but they only give meaning (2) in their Learner's Dictionary.

There certainly are a lot more Google hits for "reputed mobster"
than for "reputed mathematician".

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[Stan Brown]

On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:10:31 +0100, Donna Richoux wrote:

> COCA (the American collection) shows a small handful of uses like "a
> wizard of great repute" but much larger list of ones like:
>
> - a reputed stronghold of the New Breeds
> - a reputed associate of the Gambino crime family
> - a reputed campaign chest of some $21 million
>
> As Vinny said, "purported," or "has the reputation of being." Handy
> journalistic short-hand for "somebody says but not us."

Sort of like "alleged". :-)

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Stan Brown]

On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 22:40:31 +0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
> There certainly are a lot more Google hits for "reputed mobster"
> than for "reputed mathematician".

Compare "admitted homosexual" and "admitted stockbroker".

[Duggy]

On Feb 5, 11:29 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:10:31 +0100, Donna Richoux wrote:
> > COCA (the American collection) shows a small handful of uses like "a
> > wizard of great repute" but  much larger list of ones like:
>
> >   - a reputed stronghold of the New Breeds
> >   - a reputed associate of the Gambino crime family
> >   - a reputed campaign chest of some $21 million
>
> > As Vinny said, "purported," or "has the reputation of being." Handy
> > journalistic short-hand for "somebody says but not us."
>
> Sort of like "alleged". :-)

Alleged means someone specific said it. Police alleged that attack
took place, or the vicitim alledges... leading to an alledged
perpetrator.

Repute means lots of people think it, but no one specific.

===
= DUG.
===

[Steve Hayes]

Or "said to be", or "I've heard that", or "people say that", or, in the
popular form nowadays, "there is a perception that".

So the widow of a reputed nuclear scientist would be the widow of a man said
to be a nuclear scientist, or "I've heard that her husband was a nuclear
scientist", or "there is a perception that her husband was a nuclear
scientist".

That doesn't mean that he *wasn't* a nuclear scientist, only that I don't have
first-hand knowledge of his having been one.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:30:01 -0500, Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm>
wrote:

>On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 22:40:31 +0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>
>> There certainly are a lot more Google hits for "reputed mobster"
>> than for "reputed mathematician".
>
>Compare "admitted homosexual" and "admitted stockbroker".

I came across a newspaper article about a "self-confessed zombie" the other
day. I'm still trying to work out what a self-confessed zombie would be
confessing to.

If anyone can provide enlightenment in this matter, please see my blog post
at:

http://methodius.blogspot.com/2012/02/bonking-zombie-is-back.html

[Peter Brooks]

On Feb 5, 6:00 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> On 4 Feb 2012 15:13:39 -0800, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Steve Hayes filted:
>

> >>On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 19:58:08 +0100, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>
> >>>Am 04.02.2012 19:51, schrieb Vinny Burgoo:
> >>>> It seems that the dominant meaning of 'reputed' in South Asia is
> >>>> 'respected' rather than 'purported'. For example:
>
> >>>I thought this was the dominant meaning of "reputed" in standard English
> >>>as well. Am I mislead?
>
> >>You are misled.
>
> >To connect it with a related and perhaps more familiar word, the standard
> >meaning is "having a reputation"...the more recent refinement interprets this as
> >"having *only* a reputation"....r
>
> Or "said to be", or "I've heard that", or "people say that", or, in the
> popular form nowadays, "there is a perception that".
>
> So the widow of a reputed nuclear scientist would be the widow of a man said
> to be a nuclear scientist, or "I've heard that her husband was a nuclear
> scientist", or "there is a perception that her husband was a nuclear
> scientist".
>
> That doesn't mean that he *wasn't* a nuclear scientist, only that I don't have
> first-hand knowledge of his having been one.
>

I'd consider 'said to be' to suggest a higher level of scepticism than
that.

[Peter Brooks]

On Feb 5, 6:09 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:30:01 -0500, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm>

> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 22:40:31 +0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
> >> There certainly are a lot more Google hits for "reputed mobster"
> >> than for "reputed mathematician".
>
> >Compare "admitted homosexual" and "admitted stockbroker".
>
> I came across a newspaper article about a "self-confessed zombie" the other
> day. I'm still trying to work out what a self-confessed zombie would be
> confessing to.
>
> If anyone can provide enlightenment in this matter, please see my blog post
> at:
>
> http://methodius.blogspot.com/2012/02/bonking-zombie-is-back.html
>

Firstly, Vampires are most common in the Transvaal, rather than
Transalvania - people who have an urge to drink blood and don't like
going out in the sun much suffer from porphyria, which is most
prevalent there. I'm not sure why.

I don't think that there has to be evidence of death or burial for
something to be a zombie. You could die at home, or at the barber, and
then be secretly zombied. So the mere lack of a death certificate
isn't evidence against being a zombie.

Zombies are supposed to be soulless too - but that makes me one as I
don't have a soul either.

That isn't the whole of it, though. The OED provides two other ways in
which one can be a zombie:
"
2. fig. A dull, apathetic, or slow-witted person. Also as a general
term of disparagement. colloq.
" [OED]

"
3. Canad. Mil. slang. In the war of 1939–45, an opprobrious nickname
applied to men conscripted for home defence.
" [OED]

My guess is that the most probable explanation is that your self-
confessed zombie is of type 2.

[David Kaye]

"Joachim Pense" <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote

> I thought this was the dominant meaning of "reputed" in standard English
> as well. Am I mislead?

This is a good question. I've always taken the meaning to be purported, not
respected, but when you think of it, both definitions come from the same
root. A reputation is the gauge of one's character as perceived by others.
So, if one's reputation is good, the "reputed" person would be respected.

Dang! I'd never thought of this before...

[Walter P. Zähl]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 22:40:31 +0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>
>> There certainly are a lot more Google hits for "reputed mobster"
>> than for "reputed mathematician".
>
> Compare "admitted homosexual" and "admitted stockbroker".

I like "practicing catholic" and "practicing homosexual".

Practice hours 9-12 and by appoinment, I guess.

/Walter

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes:

> On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:10:31 +0100, Donna Richoux wrote:
>
>> COCA (the American collection) shows a small handful of uses like "a
>> wizard of great repute" but much larger list of ones like:
>>
>> - a reputed stronghold of the New Breeds
>> - a reputed associate of the Gambino crime family
>> - a reputed campaign chest of some $21 million
>>
>> As Vinny said, "purported," or "has the reputation of being." Handy
>> journalistic short-hand for "somebody says but not us."
>
> Sort of like "alleged". :-)

Yes. No smiley. The difference is that "reputed" is sort of like
"widely alleged". Lots of people say so, but we're not going to
commit. But we're not implying they're wrong, either, or we would
have used "supposed".

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |"Algebra? But that's far too
SF Bay Area (1982-) |difficult for seven-year-olds!"
Chicago (1964-1982) |
|"Yes, but I didn't tell them that
evan.kir...@gmail.com |and so far they haven't found out,"
|said Susan.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Mike Lyle]

Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
"South Asia"?

--
Mike.

[Vinny Burgoo]

In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:

>Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
>bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
>"South Asia"?

'The Subcontinent'?

--
VB

[Leslie Danks]

It'a matter of context, really. "A reputed man" would have a different
meaning when referred to a henpecked husband than it would when referred
to a new eunuch in a harem in which there had been a sudden surge of
pregnancies.

--
Les
(BrE)

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 19:39:28 +0000, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

That would depend on what Mike has in mind for "local" in "local
expression". Is there an expression in SubcontinentalE(nglishes)?

[Robert Bannister]

I hope so because I can't even guess whether you mean Yemen, Sri Lanka
or Malaysia. I know what is meant by "South-East Asia" and I know that
in my country "Asia" by itself means SE Asia, but I have no idea what
*you* mean by "South Asia".

--
Robert Bannister

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister filted:

Note that a truly objective geographer would speak of France as part of
Northwest Asia....r

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

If Mike is using the BrE sense of "South Asia" then it is the land that
pre-independence and, crucially, pre-partition was India.

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/South-Asia

the part of Asia that contains the countries of India, Pakistan, and
Bangladesh

Extended senses are used.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/South%2BAsia?q=south+asia

South Asia

the southern part of Asia, in particular India, Pakistan,
Bangladesh, Nepal, and Sri Lanka.


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/South_Asia

South Asia

All the countries of the Indian subcontinent (principally India,
Pakistan and Bangladesh) and the Indian Ocean (principally Sri
Lanka)

Usage notes

Nepal, Afghanistan, Burma and even Iran are sometimes included in
this group

Wikipedia gives the three definitions of South Asia, "General
Definition", "Also sometimes included" and "Also included by the UN".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South-Asia

[bob]

On Feb 6, 1:52 am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> On 6/02/12 3:16 AM, Mike Lyle wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 4 Feb 2012 15:13:39 -0800, R H Draney<dadoc...@spamcop.net>  wrote:
>
> >> Steve Hayes filted:
>

> >>> On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 19:58:08 +0100, Joachim Pense<s...@pense-mainz.eu>  wrote:
>
> >>>> Am 04.02.2012 19:51, schrieb Vinny Burgoo:
> >>>>> It seems that the dominant meaning of 'reputed' in South Asia is
> >>>>> 'respected' rather than 'purported'. For example:
>
> >>>> I thought this was the dominant meaning of "reputed" in standard English
> >>>> as well. Am I mislead?
>
> >>> You are misled.
>
> >> To connect it with a related and perhaps more familiar word, the standard
> >> meaning is "having a reputation"...the more recent refinement interprets this as
> >> "having *only* a reputation"....r
>
> > Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
> > bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
> > "South Asia"?
>
> I hope so because I can't even guess whether you mean Yemen, Sri Lanka
> or Malaysia. I know what is meant by "South-East Asia" and I know that
> in my country "Asia" by itself means SE Asia, but I have no idea what
> *you* mean by "South Asia".

If you consider the southern part of Asia, Yemen and the Arabian
peninsula are generally refered to as the "Middle East" while the
region from Burma to Indonesia is "South East Asia". In between there
exists a very highly polulous region, with a shared history distinct
from those either side. To me this is the area I think of when people
say "South Asia" as there is no other inoffensive way to describe this
region other than by listing a bunch of countries (India, Pakistan,
Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka) and risk forgetting some. You
could say "the subcontinent", I suppose, but that feels somehow old
fashionned to my ear.

Robin

[Peter Moylan]

I assume that you are not including what I would call "Asia", so perhaps
the desired term is "South-West Asia".

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Peter Moylan]

If you were unwell, would you be willing to trust your life to a doctor
in a medical practice?

[Christian Weisgerber]

Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> > Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
> > bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
> > "South Asia"?
>
> I hope so because I can't even guess whether you mean Yemen, Sri Lanka
> or Malaysia.

I assumed he meant British India.

[Mike Lyle]

On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 20:45:04 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 19:39:28 +0000, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
>>
>>>Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
>>>bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
>>>"South Asia"?
>>
>>'The Subcontinent'?
>
>That would depend on what Mike has in mind for "local" in "local
>expression". Is there an expression in SubcontinentalE(nglishes)?

I was ruling out "the Subcontinent" because it isn't a unique
signifier; but I certainly prefer it when situation or context make it
clear.

But I'm interested to see that several among us were unfamiliar with
the expression "South Asia", which I had thought enjoyed official and
scholarly status. That makes my question the more pertinent.

--
Mike.

[Mike Lyle]

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 00:39:46 +1100, Peter Moylan
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>Mike Lyle wrote:
[...]

>>
>> Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
>> bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
>> "South Asia"?
>>
>I assume that you are not including what I would call "Asia", so perhaps
>the desired term is "South-West Asia".

That would be the Arabian Peninsula.

--
Mike.

[John Varela]

Are Vietnam, Singapore, and Thailand in South Asia? Is Southeast
Asia not part of South Asia?

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 01:30:01 UTC, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 22:40:31 +0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> >
> > There certainly are a lot more Google hits for "reputed mobster"
> > than for "reputed mathematician".
>
> Compare "admitted homosexual" and "admitted stockbroker".

The latter presumably being admitted to prison.

--
John Varela

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

Not the way _South Asia_ is conventionally used. It is not a simple
geographical label.

You are an American living in the country commonly referred to as
America. Is Argentina not part of America?

The OED has this obsolete sense of South Asian:

2. = Australasian adj. Obs.

1827 Hobart Town Gaz. 1 Sept. 5/1 On the 1st of October, the
South Asian Register, a quarterly work is to be published at
Sydney, by Mr. Hill.
1844 Asiatic Jrnl. Feb. 20 In after-ages, these colonies shall
have extended over the five millions of geographical miles, which
is about the superficies of New Holland alone, and a magnificent
South-Asian empire..shall have developed.
1883 J. Dye Coin Encycl. 291 Australia..forms a principal part
of the Australasian (South Asian) division of the globe.

[Mike Lyle]

On 6 Feb 2012 20:17:27 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

I did say "a bit wrongly"; but as we've been seeing in this thread,
the expression isn't anything like as generally accepted as I thought.
But, as has been said here, the term is used in the region. For
example, according to Wikipedia, The South Asian Association for
Regional Cooperation (SAARC) has the following members: Sri Lanka,
Bhutan, India, the Maldives, Nepal, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and
Afghanistan. The strapline on the Oxford Faculty of Oriental Studies
website reads: "Islamic World Hebrew & Jewish Studies Eastern
Christianity Egyptology & Ancient Near East South & Inner Asia
East Asia" (they don't seem to offer courses in Indonesian etc
studies).

--
Mike.

[tony cooper]

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 21:19:22 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>You are an American living in the country commonly referred to as
>America. Is Argentina not part of America?

No, not the country recognized as "America", and "America" is part of
"North America". Argentina is part of the country known as "South
America".

No Argentinean would say "I'm from America".

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

I know that. My question was rhetorical and was intended to illustrate
that names of places and regions cannot always be interpreted literally.

[Mark Brader]

Tony Cooper:

>> No, not the country recognized as "America", and "America" is part of
>> "North America". Argentina is part of the country known as "South
>> America".
>>
>> No Argentinean would say "I'm from America".

Peter Duncanson:
> I know that. My question was rhetorical...

I thought so. However, Tony needed to pick a better example. As
I pointed out here in 1993, when Paul Theroux made the trip to South
America that he recounts in his memoir "The Old Patagonian Express",
he was surprised to hear "America" being used to mean "South America".
--
Mark Brader | "There are no nations! There is only humanity.
Toronto | And if we don't come to understand that right
m...@vex.net | soon, there will be no nations, because there
| will be no humanity." --Isaac Asimov

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[R H Draney]

BrE filted:

I've known that ever since I learned that "the Midwest" was to my east, and "the
Far East" was west of me....r

[tony cooper]

On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:36:01 -0600, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Tony Cooper:
>>> No, not the country recognized as "America", and "America" is part of
>>> "North America". Argentina is part of the country known as "South
>>> America".
>>>
>>> No Argentinean would say "I'm from America".
>
>Peter Duncanson:
>> I know that. My question was rhetorical...
>
>I thought so. However, Tony needed to pick a better example. As
>I pointed out here in 1993, when Paul Theroux made the trip to South
>America that he recounts in his memoir "The Old Patagonian Express",
>he was surprised to hear "America" being used to mean "South America".

I don't see why Theroux's experience with an unknown number of people
make this a bad example.

[Peter Moylan]

In my case the West is east of me, and the East is north.

[Peter Brooks]

On Feb 7, 1:36 am, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
> Tony Cooper:
>
> >> No, not the country recognized as "America", and "America" is part of
> >> "North America".  Argentina is part of the country known as "South
> >> America".
>
> >> No Argentinean would say "I'm from America".
>
> Peter Duncanson:
>
> > I know that. My question was rhetorical...
>
> I thought so.  However, Tony needed to pick a better example.  As
> I pointed out here in 1993, when Paul Theroux made the trip to South
> America that he recounts in his memoir "The Old Patagonian Express",
> he was surprised to hear "America" being used to mean "South America".
>

Odd that he should be surprised, I'd expect it. People in North Africa
refer to where they are as 'Africa', as to people in East, South &
West Africa - why should it be different for the American continent?

People say that they're 'African', usually, before saying that they're
Zimbabwean or Tchadian. Similarly people from North and South Europe
refer to themselves as 'Europeans'.

[Robert Bannister]

But "South Asia", conventionally, is not used at all.

>
> You are an American living in the country commonly referred to as
> America. Is Argentina not part of America?

America has meant North America and more specifically the United States
for a very long time now and in most countries of the world.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 7/02/12 7:56 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> R H Draney wrote:
>> BrE filted:
>>> On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:33:51 -0500, tony cooper
>>> <tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> No Argentinean would say "I'm from America".
>>> I know that. My question was rhetorical and was intended to illustrate
>>> that names of places and regions cannot always be interpreted literally.
>>
>> I've known that ever since I learned that "the Midwest" was to my east, and "the
>> Far East" was west of me....r
>
> In my case the West is east of me, and the East is north.
>

Humph! [from Western Australia.]
The Far East is in the north. The East is where you live.

--
Robert Bannister

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

It is used in the UK, although "the sub-continent" competes with it.
"South Asian" is certainly used and has been noticed by the OED:

2002 Sight & Sound Apr. 72/1 As a South Asian, I find it
heartening that Sight and Sound has begun to appreciate that
Bollywood cinema has broken through into the UK mainstream.

Sight and Sound is the magazine of the British Film Institute.

[John Varela]

Now you remind me of the existence of ASEAN, the Association of
Southeast Asian Nations, whose members are: Brunei, Cambodia,
Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Burma, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand,
and VietNam.

--
John Varela

[Mark Brader]

Peter Brooks:

> Odd that he should be surprised, I'd expect it. People in North Africa
> refer to where they are as 'Africa', as to people in East, South &
> West Africa - why should it be different for the American continent?

Because there isn't one, in English usage. As you well know.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "I don't _want_ people using Linux for ideological
m...@vex.net | reasons. I think ideology sucks." -- Torvalds

[Peter Brooks]

On Feb 7, 9:56 am, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
> Peter Brooks:
>
> > Odd that he should be surprised, I'd expect it. People in North Africa
> > refer to where they are as 'Africa', as to people in East, South &
> > West Africa - why should it be different for the American continent?
>
> Because there isn't one, in English usage.  As you well know.
>

[OED]
"
1834 Chambers's Edinb. Jrnl. 21 June 168/1 A bird, called the
partridge,‥is found all over the American continent; they are of two
sorts, the spruce and the birch, so called from the different buds
which they select for their food.
"
QED

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:40:26 -0800 (PST), Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:

>On Feb 5, 11:29 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:10:31 +0100, Donna Richoux wrote:
>> > COCA (the American collection) shows a small handful of uses like "a
>> > wizard of great repute" but  much larger list of ones like:
>>
>> >   - a reputed stronghold of the New Breeds
>> >   - a reputed associate of the Gambino crime family
>> >   - a reputed campaign chest of some $21 million
>>
>> > As Vinny said, "purported," or "has the reputation of being." Handy
>> > journalistic short-hand for "somebody says but not us."
>>
>> Sort of like "alleged". :-)
>
>Alleged means someone specific said it. Police alleged that attack
>took place, or the vicitim alledges... leading to an alledged
>perpetrator.

Except when you have an "alleged suspect", which is only slightly better than
an "unknown suspect".


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 19:39:28 +0000, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
>
>>Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
>>bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
>>"South Asia"?
>
>'The Subcontinent'?

Except that in this neck of the woods that means "southern Africa".

[Vinny Burgoo]

In alt.usage.english, John Varela wrote:

>Now you remind me of the existence of ASEAN, the Association of
>Southeast Asian Nations, whose members are: Brunei, Cambodia,
>Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Burma, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand,
>and VietNam.

There's also Greater Mekong, which is supposed to be all those nations
and Chinese provinces and autonomous regions that are all or partly
drained by the Mekong but doesn't officially include Tibet or Qinghai.

An abandoned SDC question (too annoying): If Greater Greater Mekong is
all those nations and Chinese provinces etc. that are all or partly
drained by all watersheds that all or partly drain Greater Mekong
(including Tibet and Qinghai), how many Greaters are required to define
a region that includes the whole of mainland Asia? Ignore canals.
Ganges-Brahmaputra-Meghna is one watershed. Landlocked rivers count as
drainage.

I don't know the answer. There's a chance that by the time mainland Asia
has been snaffled, mainland Europe will have been snaffled too.

As an example, by my reckoning Greater Greater Mekong includes the
following:

Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Myanmar, Yunnan, Qinghai, Tibet,
India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Gansu, Shaanxi,
Henan, Anhui, Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Jiangxi, Hubei, Sichuan, Guizhou,
Hunan, Fujian, Guangdong, Guangxi Zhuang, Shanghai (brackishly), Ningxia
Hui, Shanxi, Inner Mongolia, Shandong, Hebei and (just) Xingiang Uygur.

--
VB

[Vinny Burgoo]

In alt.usage.english, Vinny Burgoo wrote:

[...]

>As an example, by my reckoning Greater Greater Mekong includes the
>following:
>
>Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Myanmar, Yunnan, Qinghai, Tibet,
>India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Gansu,
>Shaanxi, Henan, Anhui, Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Jiangxi, Hubei, Sichuan,
>Guizhou, Hunan, Fujian, Guangdong, Guangxi Zhuang, Shanghai
>(brackishly), Ningxia Hui, Shanxi, Inner Mongolia, Shandong, Hebei and
>(just) Xingiang Uygur.

And Chongqing.

--
VB

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 00:39:46 +1100, Peter Moylan
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>Mike Lyle wrote:

>> Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
>> bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
>> "South Asia"?
>>

>I assume that you are not including what I would call "Asia", so perhaps
>the desired term is "South-West Asia".

I'm not sure what you would call Asia, but to me "South-West Asia" means the
Arabian peninsula.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 02:45:56 -0800, "David Kaye" <sfdavi...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>"Joachim Pense" <sn...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote
>
>> I thought this was the dominant meaning of "reputed" in standard English
>> as well. Am I mislead?
>
>This is a good question. I've always taken the meaning to be purported, not
>respected, but when you think of it, both definitions come from the same
>root. A reputation is the gauge of one's character as perceived by others.
>So, if one's reputation is good, the "reputed" person would be respected.

A bit like "prestigious", perhaps.

It originally meant having a rather dodgy reputation, but now most people seem
to assume that it means having a good one.

[Jack Campin]

> Firstly, Vampires are most common in the Transvaal, rather than
> Transalvania - people who have an urge to drink blood and don't like
> going out in the sun much suffer from porphyria, which is most
> prevalent there. I'm not sure why.

Porphyria has no connection with vampirism except in the imagination
of some pop science hack from the 1980s.

http://64.8.116.193/archive/2010/11/01/the-myth-of-vampires-and-porphyria.aspx

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Peter Brooks]

On Feb 7, 8:07 pm, Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Firstly, Vampires are most common in the Transvaal, rather than
> > Transalvania - people who have an urge to drink blood and don't like
> > going out in the sun much suffer from porphyria, which is most
> > prevalent there. I'm not sure why.
>
> Porphyria has no connection with vampirism except in the imagination
> of some pop science hack from the 1980s.
>

It seems to have rather more of a connection than anything else. Or
are you going to say that there are real vampires out there?

[John Varela]

On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 06:56:17 UTC, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

> Peter Brooks:
> > Odd that he should be surprised, I'd expect it. People in North Africa
> > refer to where they are as 'Africa', as to people in East, South &
> > West Africa - why should it be different for the American continent?
>
> Because there isn't one, in English usage. As you well know.

There isn't one continent in the Americas; there are two. Europe,
however, is really a peninsula or, better, an omnium-gatherum of
peninsulas and islands.

--
John Varela

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-02-05, Vinny Burgoo wrote:

> In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
>
>>Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
>>bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
>>"South Asia"?
>

> 'The Subcontinent'?

I'm under the impression that "the Subcontinent" has colonial
connotations so "South Asia" is the more polite choice.


--
Unix is a user-friendly operating system. It's just very choosy about
its friends.

[Mike Lyle]

On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:59:35 -0800 (PST), Peter Brooks
<peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Feb 7, 9:56 am, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>> Peter Brooks:
>>
>> > Odd that he should be surprised, I'd expect it. People in North Africa
>> > refer to where they are as 'Africa', as to people in East, South &
>> > West Africa - why should it be different for the American continent?
>>
>> Because there isn't one, in English usage.  As you well know.
>>
>[OED]
>"
>1834 Chambers's Edinb. Jrnl. 21 June 168/1 A bird, called the

>partridge,?is found all over the American continent; they are of two

>sorts, the spruce and the birch, so called from the different buds
>which they select for their food.
>"
>QED

What have you done with The BBC Home Service Schools' Broadcasts'
Reporter From the Past, Jim Smith? If he isn't returned unharmed
within twenty-four hours, we'll send in John Snagge.

--
Mike.

[Jack Campin]

>> Porphyria has no connection with vampirism except in the imagination
>> of some pop science hack from the 1980s.
> It seems to have rather more of a connection than anything else.
> Or are you going to say that there are real vampires out there?

This book gives a pretty convincing explanation for where vampire
beliefs came from:

http://reviews.media-culture.org.au/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4418
http://stevereads.com/weblog/category/books/barber-paul/vampires-burial-and-death/

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:21:41 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

>On 2012-02-05, Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
>>
>>>Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
>>>bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
>>>"South Asia"?
>>
>> 'The Subcontinent'?
>
>I'm under the impression that "the Subcontinent" has colonial
>connotations so "South Asia" is the more polite choice.

What gave you that impression?

[Steve Hayes]

It depends on what you mean by "real".

Until a couple of years ago I believed that both vampires and zombies were
primarily creatures of folklore, the former from Eastern Europe and the
Balkans, and the latter from Haiti. Both were "walking dead", the difference
being that zombies were corpses that had been rescuscitated by witchcraft for
perform certain tasks, while vampires required no human intervention.

In South Africa "zombie" has been the English word used by newspapers to refer
to the creatures believed to be controlled by witches, and when people were
accused of being witches, it was often because neighbours believed they had
seen zombies in the house or working in the garden.

Both vampires and zombies have become known outside their areas of origin
mainly through horror fiction.

By metaphorical extension the terms were applied to living human beings. In
Greece, for example, a "vampire" (vrykolakas) is a sexual predator -- a rapist
etc. And living people have been called "zombies" as an insult because of
unquestioning obedience to orders and so on -- like animated corpses they are
unable to think for themselves.

A couple of years ago I discovered that there were human beings who identified
themselves as vampires, and regarded themselves as part of the "vampire
community", and were a distinct sub-culture, because they liked drinking human
blood.

I was not aware of any "zombie community" until last week's article in the
Daily Sun.

So what I am asking is what exactly a "self-confessed zombie" is confessing
to. Has anyone else heard of zombies being other than walking dead, but as
people who have not yet died (apart from metaphorical extensions, where a
person is accused of behaving like a zombie, an animated corpse rather than
like a living, thinking human being).

Is "zombie" changing in English usage from referring to walking dead to
something else? And if so, what is that something else?

[Duggy]

On Feb 8, 6:21 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2012-02-05, Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>
> > In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
>
> >>Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
> >>bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
> >>"South Asia"?
>
> > 'The Subcontinent'?
>
> I'm under the impression that "the Subcontinent" has colonial
> connotations so "South Asia" is the more polite choice.

Malaysia and Indonesia are further south.

===
= DUG.
===

[Robert Bannister]

I would take this to mean "North America". I don't believe there is such
an place as "the American continent" even though it looks like one on a map.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 8/02/12 4:21 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2012-02-05, Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
>>> bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
>>> "South Asia"?
>>
>> 'The Subcontinent'?
>
> I'm under the impression that "the Subcontinent" has colonial
> connotations so "South Asia" is the more polite choice.
>
>

Considering it is not the most southerly point in Asia by thousands of
kilometres, it seems pretty stupid.

Whoops! I just checked: hundreds, not thousands - (taking Kota Bharu as
being roughly the same latitude as the most southerly point of Sri Lanka).

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 6/02/12 7:13 PM, bob wrote:
> On Feb 6, 1:52 am, Robert Bannister<robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> On 6/02/12 3:16 AM, Mike Lyle wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 4 Feb 2012 15:13:39 -0800, R H Draney<dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> Steve Hayes filted:
>>
>>>>> On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 19:58:08 +0100, Joachim Pense<s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Am 04.02.2012 19:51, schrieb Vinny Burgoo:
>>>>>>> It seems that the dominant meaning of 'reputed' in South Asia is
>>>>>>> 'respected' rather than 'purported'. For example:

>>
>>>>>> I thought this was the dominant meaning of "reputed" in standard English
>>>>>> as well. Am I mislead?
>>

>>>>> You are misled.
>>
>>>> To connect it with a related and perhaps more familiar word, the standard
>>>> meaning is "having a reputation"...the more recent refinement interprets this as
>>>> "having *only* a reputation"....r

>>
>>> Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
>>> bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
>>> "South Asia"?
>>

>> I hope so because I can't even guess whether you mean Yemen, Sri Lanka
>> or Malaysia. I know what is meant by "South-East Asia" and I know that
>> in my country "Asia" by itself means SE Asia, but I have no idea what
>> *you* mean by "South Asia".
>
> If you consider the southern part of Asia, Yemen and the Arabian
> peninsula are generally refered to as the "Middle East" while the
> region from Burma to Indonesia is "South East Asia". In between there
> exists a very highly polulous region, with a shared history distinct
> from those either side. To me this is the area I think of when people
> say "South Asia" as there is no other inoffensive way to describe this
> region other than by listing a bunch of countries (India, Pakistan,
> Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka) and risk forgetting some. You
> could say "the subcontinent", I suppose, but that feels somehow old
> fashionned to my ear.

It seems a fairly recent innovation to me. Moreover, I find it strange
lumping the Himalayan countries Afghanistan, Nepal and Bhutan in with
the others - you might as well add Burma, Tadjikistan, Kyrgyzstan and
possibly Tibet and Iran. I find a lot of Indians, Pakistanis and
Bangladeshis use "the Subcontinent".


--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 8/02/12 7:04 AM, Jack Campin wrote:
>>> Porphyria has no connection with vampirism except in the imagination
>>> of some pop science hack from the 1980s.
>> It seems to have rather more of a connection than anything else.
>> Or are you going to say that there are real vampires out there?
>
> This book gives a pretty convincing explanation for where vampire
> beliefs came from:
>
> http://reviews.media-culture.org.au/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4418
> http://stevereads.com/weblog/category/books/barber-paul/vampires-burial-and-death/

In Macedonian and I think Bulgarian, the word for magician is "vampir"
(vapir in some dialects). I should qualify that: dictionaries have other
words for "magician", but the village people I have asked know only вампир.


--
Robert Bannister

[Peter Brooks]

Interesting. I'd take it to mean the whole continent. I suppose that
it's a matter of research now - is a bird, called the partridge, found
from Alaska to Argentina?

[Peter Brooks]

[OED]
"
ˈsubˌcontinent

(Now also with main stress on second syllable.)

[sub- 5 b.]

A land mass of great extent, but smaller than those generally called
continents; a large section of a continent having a certain
geographical or political independence; spec. applied formerly to
South Africa, and more recently to India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and
Sri Lanka.

   1863 Huxley Man's Place Nat. iii. 154 From central Asia eastward to
the Pacific islands and subcontinents on the one hand, and to America
on the other.    1901 Scotsman 16 Oct. 11/1 In South Africa‥the
inhabitants of the sub-continent.    1911 United Empire June 389
Rhodesia might have seemed the Never-never-land of the sub-continent,
a Cinderella among South African States.    1947 J. Stevenson-Hamilton
Wild Life S. Afr. xiii. 94 The springbuck‥is the only representative
of the gazelle group, which is found in the sub-continent.    1954 B.
& R. North tr. M. Duverger's Pol. Parties ii. i. 210 In Latin America,
a general tendency towards the two-party system is perceptible, though
it is generally‥deformed by the revolutions, coups d'état,
gerrymandering‥characteristic of‥that sub-continent.    1971 R.
Russell in Aziz Ahmad's Shore & Wave 7 The novel in Urdu, as in all
the modern languages of the South Asian sub-continent, is of very
recent growth.    1972 Times of India 28 Nov. 11/4 Mr. Azad outlined
his Government's views on the political problems of the sub-continent.
   1978 L. Heren Growing up on The Times v. 175 Many Indians refused
to accept the partition of the sub-continent.
"

[Peter Brooks]

That's probably because they live there. I've thought of it as a
standard, current, English usage. It replaced 'India', after
partition, to refer, essentially, to the same place. Technically, as
you say, it refers to a geographic region, so should involve Nepal,
and Bhutan, at least - I'd think Afghanistan was going too far...

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:

> On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:40:26 -0800 (PST), Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>
>>On Feb 5, 11:29 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:10:31 +0100, Donna Richoux wrote:
>>> > COCA (the American collection) shows a small handful of uses like "a
>>> > wizard of great repute" but  much larger list of ones like:
>>>
>>> >   - a reputed stronghold of the New Breeds
>>> >   - a reputed associate of the Gambino crime family
>>> >   - a reputed campaign chest of some $21 million
>>>
>>> > As Vinny said, "purported," or "has the reputation of being."
>>> > Handy journalistic short-hand for "somebody says but not us."
>>>
>>> Sort of like "alleged". :-)
>>
>>Alleged means someone specific said it. Police alleged that attack
>>took place, or the vicitim alledges... leading to an alledged
>>perpetrator.
>
> Except when you have an "alleged suspect", which is only slightly
> better than an "unknown suspect".

We've been through this before. An "alleged suspect" is nearly always
someone whose identity we know, but the police haven't officially said
that they're a suspect. (They might be a possible witness or have
some other information the police are looking for. But the word on
the street is that they're a suspect.) An "unknown suspect" is
definitely (we're asserting) a suspect, but we don't know who they
are.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The General Theorem of Usenet
SF Bay Area (1982-) |Information: If you really want to
Chicago (1964-1982) |know the definitive answer, post
|the wrong information, and wait for
evan.kir...@gmail.com |someone to come by and explain in
|excruciating detail precisely how
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |wrong you are.
| Eric The Read

[R H Draney]

Peter Brooks filted:
>
>>
>[OED]
>"
>=CB=88sub=CB=8Ccontinent

>
>(Now also with main stress on second syllable.)
>

>[sub- 5=E2=80=86b.]

>
>A land mass of great extent, but smaller than those generally called
>continents; a large section of a continent having a certain
>geographical or political independence; spec. applied formerly to
>South Africa, and more recently to India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and
>Sri Lanka.

Sub-continent: what Jared Fogle was as big as before he started his diet....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

And there's about as much geological justification for calling North
and South America one continent as there is calling Asia and Africa
one continent. Both pairs only bumped together relatively recently.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |A handgun is like a Lawyer. You
SF Bay Area (1982-) |don't want it lying around where
Chicago (1964-1982) |the children might be exposed to
|it, but when you need one, you need
evan.kir...@gmail.com |it RIGHT NOW, and nothing else will
|do.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Bill McNutt

[Vinny Burgoo]

In alt.usage.english, Peter Brooks wrote:
>On Feb 8, 6:26 am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> > [OED]
>> > "
>> > 1834 Chambers's Edinb. Jrnl. 21 June 168/1 A bird, called the

>> > partridge,0 >> > sorts, the spruce and the birch, so called from the different buds

>> > which they select for their food.
>> > "
>> > QED
>>
>> I would take this to mean "North America". I don't believe there is such
>> an place as "the American continent" even though it looks like one on a map.
>>
>Interesting. I'd take it to mean the whole continent. I suppose that
>it's a matter of research now - is a bird, called the partridge, found
>from Alaska to Argentina?

The OED Chambers's quote is about grouse(s), not partridges. The Spruce
Grouse is found in northern North America - Canada and Alaska,
essentially. The Birch Partridge is the Ruffed Grouse, whose
distribution is like the Spruce's, only shifted slightly southwards.

The quote originally appeared in _Statistical Sketches of Upper Canada
for the Use of Emigrants_ by 'A Backwoodsman', an alias used by William
'Tiger' Dunlop. There, 'Tiger' explained that these 'partridges' were
'in reality of the pheasant kind', then went on to talk about grouse(s)
as though they were different beasts. That's backwoodsmen for you. (I
bet he thought there was only one type of edible mushroom.)

'Tiger' appears not have travelled much beyond Upper Canada in, er,
America, so in this case 'The American Continent' means 'The Great Lakes
Region plus Hearsay'.

--
VB

[bob]

I would regard the "-stan" (except Pakistan) as Central Asia rather
than South Asia, and Burma is on the wrong side of the Bay of Bengal,
hence is South-East Asia rather than South Asia. I suppoes a case
could be made that Nepal, Bhutan and Tibet ought to be a separate
grouping, but as India extends a long way up into the mountains,
including Nepal and Bhutan seems reasonable to me. Tibet is a whole
can of worms that can be opened another time.

Robin

[Pablo]

John Varela escribió:

>
> Are Vietnam, Singapore, and Thailand in South Asia? Is Southeast
> Asia not part of South Asia?
>

We need a venn diagram.

--
Pablo

[Pablo]

Robert Bannister escribió:
>
> America has meant North America and more specifically the United States
> for a very long time now and in most countries of the world.
>

Most? I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that I'm surprised.

--
Pablo

[Pablo]

Peter Duncanson (BrE) escribió:

> On Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:33:51 -0500, tony cooper
> <tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>
>>No Argentinean would say "I'm from America".
>
> I know that. My question was rhetorical and was intended to illustrate
> that names of places and regions cannot always be interpreted literally.
>

I was just browsing a Spanish grammar book (like one does) (Manuel Seco,
RAE) that refers to the Spanish spoken in America.

--
Pablo

[Adam Funk]

On 2012-02-08, Steve Hayes wrote:

> On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:21:41 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2012-02-05, Vinny Burgoo wrote:
>>
>>> In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
>>>
>>>>Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
>>>>bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
>>>>"South Asia"?
>>>
>>> 'The Subcontinent'?
>>
>>I'm under the impression that "the Subcontinent" has colonial
>>connotations so "South Asia" is the more polite choice.
>
> What gave you that impression?

I'm not sure, TBH. It's just a vague impression.


--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. (David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995)

[Jerry Friedman]

...

I'd have guessed Nepal and Bhutan were part of it too. And I'm
somewhat surprised it includes Sri Lanka, since the Continent (of
Europe) so definitely excludes Britain and Ireland.

--
Jerry Friedman

[tony cooper]

The statement that "most countries" understand "America" to mean just
the United States is rather meaningless. If we want to determine what
"America" describes, we should consider what most people in most
English-speaking countries understand it to mean. If we find some
people in some countries - or even most countries - using it to mean
all of North and South America, we haven't discerned anything except
that there are always some people who embrace an unsupportable
position.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Jerry Friedman]

On Feb 8, 4:23 am, Vinny Burgoo <hlu...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> In alt.usage.english, Peter Brooks wrote:
>
> >On Feb 8, 6:26 am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >> > [OED]
> >> > "
> >> > 1834 Chambers's Edinb. Jrnl. 21 June 168/1 A bird, called the
> >> > partridge,0 >> > sorts, the spruce and the birch, so called from the different buds
> >> > which they select for their food.
> >> > "
> >> > QED
>
> >> I would take this to mean "North America". I don't believe there is such
> >> an place as "the American continent" even though it looks like one on a map.
>
> >Interesting. I'd take it to mean the whole continent. I suppose that
> >it's a matter of research now - is a bird, called the partridge, found
> >from Alaska to Argentina?
>
> The OED Chambers's quote is about grouse(s), not partridges. The Spruce
> Grouse is found in northern North America - Canada and Alaska,
> essentially. The Birch Partridge is the Ruffed Grouse, whose
> distribution is like the Spruce's, only shifted slightly southwards.

Thanks, I was wondering about that.

> The quote originally appeared in _Statistical Sketches of Upper Canada
> for the Use of Emigrants_ by 'A Backwoodsman', an alias used by William
> 'Tiger' Dunlop. There, 'Tiger' explained that these 'partridges' were
> 'in reality of the pheasant kind', then went on to talk about grouse(s)
> as though they were different beasts. That's backwoodsmen for you. (I
> bet he thought there was only one type of edible mushroom.)
>
> 'Tiger' appears not have travelled much beyond Upper Canada in, er,
> America, so in this case 'The American Continent' means 'The Great Lakes
> Region plus Hearsay'.

He may have been misled because the Bobwhite, a quail, is or was
called "partridge" in the southeastern U. S., south of the range of
the Ruffed Grouse. I believe that in Newfoundland and Labrador,
"partridge" means ptarmigan (both the Rock Ptarmigan and the Willow
Ptarmigan, =BrE Ptarmigan and Willow Grouse, except... never mind).
Perhaps, if we dug into it, we'd find that birds known informally as
"partridge" (or Spanish "perdiz") are found in most of the North
American continent.

By the way, I usually don't capitalize species names in a.u.e., but I
did this time to harmonize with Vinny. Any preferences?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 08:33:41 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Feb 7, 10:35 pm, Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 8, 8:27 am, Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Feb 8, 6:26 am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > On 7/02/12 2:59 PM, Peter Brooks wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Feb 7, 9:56 am, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>> > > >> Peter Brooks:
>>
>> > > >>> Odd that he should be surprised, I'd expect it. People in North Africa
>> > > >>> refer to where they are as 'Africa', as to people in East, South&
>> > > >>> West Africa - why should it be different for the American continent?
>>
>> > > >> Because there isn't one, in English usage.  As you well know.
>>
>> > > > [OED]
>> > > > "
>> > > > 1834 Chambers's Edinb. Jrnl. 21 June 168/1 A bird, called the

>> > > > partridge,?is found all over the American continent; they are of two

>> > > > sorts, the spruce and the birch, so called from the different buds
>> > > > which they select for their food.
>> > > > "
>> > > > QED
>>
>> > > I would take this to mean "North America". I don't believe there is such
>> > > an place as "the American continent" even though it looks like one on a map.
>>
>> > Interesting. I'd take it to mean the whole continent. I suppose that
>> > it's a matter of research now - is a bird, called the partridge, found
>> > from Alaska to Argentina?
>>
>> [OED]
>> "

>> ?sub?continent

>>
>> (Now also with main stress on second syllable.)
>>

>> [sub- 5?b.]

>>
>> A land mass of great extent, but smaller than those generally called
>> continents; a large section of a continent having a certain
>> geographical or political independence; spec. applied formerly to
>> South Africa, and more recently to India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and
>> Sri Lanka.
>...
>
>I'd have guessed Nepal and Bhutan were part of it too. And I'm
>somewhat surprised it includes Sri Lanka, since the Continent (of
>Europe) so definitely excludes Britain and Ireland.

For some purposes, although Britain and Ireland are on the continental
shelf of Europe.

If the question is: which continent are Britain and Ireland part of?

1. Asia
2. Africa
3. North America
4. South America
5. Antarctica
6. Europe
7. Australia

then the answer is indubitably "4. Europe".

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Brooks]

On Feb 8, 8:23 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

I like your style in answering multiple choice questions. I think I
might adopt it.

My answer, in your style, would be "-1. Pangæa" or, if you prefer "0:
Eurasia".

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

*************!!

I added continents and did not change the answer.

>My answer, in your style, would be "-1. Pangća" or, if you prefer "0:
>Eurasia".
>

[Robin Bignall]

On Tue, 07 Feb 2012 21:07:10 +0000, Mike Lyle <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 22:59:35 -0800 (PST), Peter Brooks
><peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Feb 7, 9:56 am, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>> Peter Brooks:
>>>
>>> > Odd that he should be surprised, I'd expect it. People in North Africa
>>> > refer to where they are as 'Africa', as to people in East, South &
>>> > West Africa - why should it be different for the American continent?
>>>
>>> Because there isn't one, in English usage.  As you well know.
>>>
>>[OED]
>>"
>>1834 Chambers's Edinb. Jrnl. 21 June 168/1 A bird, called the
>>partridge,?is found all over the American continent; they are of two
>>sorts, the spruce and the birch, so called from the different buds
>>which they select for their food.
>>"
>>QED
>

>What have you done with The BBC Home Service Schools' Broadcasts'
>Reporter From the Past, Jim Smith? If he isn't returned unharmed
>within twenty-four hours, we'll send in John Snagge.

I'll see your John Snagge and raise you an Alvar Liddell.
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England

[Mike Lyle]

On 7 Feb 2012 20:15:48 GMT, "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

>On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 06:56:17 UTC, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>
>> Peter Brooks:
>> > Odd that he should be surprised, I'd expect it. People in North Africa
>> > refer to where they are as 'Africa', as to people in East, South &
>> > West Africa - why should it be different for the American continent?
>>
>> Because there isn't one, in English usage. As you well know.
>

>There isn't one continent in the Americas; there are two. Europe,
>however, is really a peninsula or, better, an omnium-gatherum of
>peninsulas and islands.

Well, if one wanted to get smart-arse about it, one could enjoy
floating a case for calling it "Asia Minor".

--
Mike.

[Mike Lyle]

I did think of threatening him with both at once, but that would have
been against the Geneva Convention - either alone would have been
overkill.

--
Mike.

[Mike Lyle]

I thought it was standard practice to cap up: there are several swamp
warblers, only one of which is a Marsh Warbler. I think I do it in any
company unless it's obviously unnecessary: your usage above is both
exemplary and a good example, as well as setting a good example.

--
Mike.

[Mike Lyle]

Language was made for man, not man for language. Afghanistan is so
intimately connected culturally, economically, and politically that
for some purposes such as the SAARC it would be as mad to leave it out
as to exclude Iceland from Europe. Bhutan and Nepal are indeed
generally included as of geographical right.

--
Mike.

[John Varela]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 17:23:18 UTC, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> If the question is: which continent are Britain and Ireland part of?
>
> 1. Asia
> 2. Africa
> 3. North America
> 4. South America
> 5. Antarctica
> 6. Europe
> 7. Australia
>
> then the answer is indubitably "4. Europe".

For certain values of 4.

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 16:46:59 UTC, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> He may have been misled because the Bobwhite, a quail, is or was
> called "partridge" in the southeastern U. S., south of the range of
> the Ruffed Grouse.

WIWAL in southern Louisiana they were called bobwhites. I used to
hear them when we visited my grandmother, who lived on a farm with
her sister and brother-in-law. We heard them but I never saw one
until a few years ago when a half-dozen of them decided to spend a
week walking around our back yard in Virginia.

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 06:16:37 UTC, Evan Kirshenbaum
<evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

> "John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net> writes:
>
> > On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 06:56:17 UTC, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
> >
> >> Peter Brooks:
> >> > Odd that he should be surprised, I'd expect it. People in North Africa
> >> > refer to where they are as 'Africa', as to people in East, South &
> >> > West Africa - why should it be different for the American continent?
> >>
> >> Because there isn't one, in English usage. As you well know.
> >
> > There isn't one continent in the Americas; there are two. Europe,
> > however, is really a peninsula or, better, an omnium-gatherum of
> > peninsulas and islands.
>
> And there's about as much geological justification for calling North
> and South America one continent as there is calling Asia and Africa
> one continent. Both pairs only bumped together relatively recently.

Not in my lifetime, however.

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 14:05:26 UTC, Pablo <no...@nowhere.net> wrote:

> I was just browsing a Spanish grammar book (like one does) (Manuel Seco,
> RAE) that refers to the Spanish spoken in America.

Should have said "the Americas" since Mexico is in North America and
Central America is ambiguous. As it reads, your grammar book must
have been talking about California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

When a Taliban exclaims "The Americans are coming!" does anyone here
think he's talking about the Argentines?

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 03:39:11 UTC, Robert Bannister
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> On 8/02/12 4:21 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> > On 2012-02-05, Vinny Burgoo wrote:
> >
> >> In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
> >>

> >>> Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
> >>> bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
> >>> "South Asia"?
> >>

> >> 'The Subcontinent'?
> >
> > I'm under the impression that "the Subcontinent" has colonial
> > connotations so "South Asia" is the more polite choice.
> >
> >
>

> Considering it is not the most southerly point in Asia by thousands of
> kilometres, it seems pretty stupid.
>
> Whoops! I just checked: hundreds, not thousands - (taking Kota Bharu as
> being roughly the same latitude as the most southerly point of Sri Lanka).

This conversation leads to the thought that what we need to do,
instead of merging Europe and Asia into Eurasia as (what logically
is) a single continent, is for clarity to make more arbitrary
divisions of Asia into SW, S, SE, N, and a few other continents.
Europe would then become "West Asia".

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 02:19:14 UTC, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>
wrote:

> Has anyone else heard of zombies being other than walking dead, but as
> people who have not yet died (apart from metaphorical extensions, where a
> person is accused of behaving like a zombie, an animated corpse rather than
> like a living, thinking human being).

Sorry, I can't give any reasonable citations, but a few years ago I
did read a magazine article that reported a study (in Haiti?) that
claimed that (a) zombies are real and (b) they are people, either
feeble-minded or mentally ill, who have been brainwashed into
servitude.

--
John Varela

[Robert Bannister]

On 8/02/12 1:30 PM, Peter Brooks wrote:
> On Feb 8, 6:47 am, Robert Bannister<robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> On 6/02/12 7:13 PM, bob wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 6, 1:52 am, Robert Bannister<robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>> On 6/02/12 3:16 AM, Mike Lyle wrote:
>>
>>>>> On 4 Feb 2012 15:13:39 -0800, R H Draney<dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Steve Hayes filted:
>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 19:58:08 +0100, Joachim Pense<s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> Am 04.02.2012 19:51, schrieb Vinny Burgoo:
>>>>>>>>> It seems that the dominant meaning of 'reputed' in South Asia is
>>>>>>>>> 'respected' rather than 'purported'. For example:
>>
>>>>>>>> I thought this was the dominant meaning of "reputed" in standard English
>>>>>>>> as well. Am I mislead?
>>
>>>>>>> You are misled.
>>
>>>>>> To connect it with a related and perhaps more familiar word, the standard
>>>>>> meaning is "having a reputation"...the more recent refinement interprets this as
>>>>>> "having *only* a reputation"....r
>>

>>>>> Is there a local expression which, without any offensive political
>>>>> bias, covers all the countries we politely and a bit wrongly call
>>>>> "South Asia"?
>>

>>>> I hope so because I can't even guess whether you mean Yemen, Sri Lanka
>>>> or Malaysia. I know what is meant by "South-East Asia" and I know that
>>>> in my country "Asia" by itself means SE Asia, but I have no idea what
>>>> *you* mean by "South Asia".
>>
>>> If you consider the southern part of Asia, Yemen and the Arabian
>>> peninsula are generally refered to as the "Middle East" while the
>>> region from Burma to Indonesia is "South East Asia". In between there
>>> exists a very highly polulous region, with a shared history distinct
>>> from those either side. To me this is the area I think of when people
>>> say "South Asia" as there is no other inoffensive way to describe this
>>> region other than by listing a bunch of countries (India, Pakistan,
>>> Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka) and risk forgetting some. You
>>> could say "the subcontinent", I suppose, but that feels somehow old
>>> fashionned to my ear.
>>
>> It seems a fairly recent innovation to me. Moreover, I find it strange
>> lumping the Himalayan countries Afghanistan, Nepal and Bhutan in with
>> the others - you might as well add Burma, Tadjikistan, Kyrgyzstan and
>> possibly Tibet and Iran. I find a lot of Indians, Pakistanis and
>> Bangladeshis use "the Subcontinent".
>>
> That's probably because they live there. I've thought of it as a
> standard, current, English usage. It replaced 'India', after
> partition, to refer, essentially, to the same place. Technically, as
> you say, it refers to a geographic region, so should involve Nepal,
> and Bhutan, at least - I'd think Afghanistan was going too far...
>
>

My (often faulty) memory tells me that Burma, for some strange
historical reason, was often included in this. I don't think many people
had even heard of Bhutan back then - it used to be pretty inaccessible,
although for various reasons Assam, Sikkim and Nagaland are difficult to
get to as well. Then there's Kashmir.

[Robert Bannister]

Afghanistan is just as much linked with Persia/Iran and Tajikistan. This
is part of the problem.