How would you pronounce the word "varies"?
Saskia Gartzen
I'm nterested in whether there is any variation between American and
English in the pronunciation of the word "varies". Any suggestions?
Bob Cunningham
Saskia Gartzen <desi...@euronet.nl> said:
>I'm nterested in whether there is any variation between American and
>English in the pronunciation of the word "varies". Any suggestions?
The phrase "between American and English" doesn't sit right with
me. American is a variety of English just as the language spoken in
Southern England is a variety of English. Would SG ask if there's any
difference between sheep and animals?
I assume SG meant to ask if there is any difference between the
pronunciation of "varies" in American English and in the variety of
English spoken in England. For people--like me--without training in
phonetics the question is impossible to answer without the use of shared
voice recordings. All that can be said is that the pronunciation of
"varies" probably varies as much between one variety of American English
and another as it does between American English and different varieties
of English English.
In my own idiolect of American English, the words "marry", "Mary",
"merry", "very", "vary", and "hairy" all have exactly the same first
vowel sound. I think someone in another thread has mentioned that the
sound of "a" in "marry" can vary from the sound of the "a" in "cat" to
the "e" in "met" in going from one part of England to another. I would
think that the same might be true of the "a" in "varies".
A British dictionary, _The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_
(1993 edition) (NSOED/93), gives the pronunciation of "vary" using an
IPA symbol that they exemplify by the vowel in "hair". That leaves me
completely in the dark because I don't really know how the English
English pronunciations of the vowels in "hairy" and "merry" differ.
Bob Cunningham
(This message has been modified after it was posted.)
Saskia Gartzen <desi...@euronet.nl> said:
>I'm nterested in whether there is any variation between American and
>English in the pronunciation of the word "varies". Any suggestions?
The phrase "between American and English" doesn't sit right with
me. American is a variety of English just as the language spoken in
Southern England is a variety of English. Would SG ask if there's any
difference between sheep and animals?
I assume SG meant to ask if there is any difference between the
pronunciation of "varies" in American English and in the variety of
English spoken in England. For people--like me--without training in
phonetics the question is impossible to answer without the use of shared
voice recordings. All that can be said is that the pronunciation of
"varies" probably varies as much between one variety of American English
and another as it does between American English and different varieties
of English English.
In my own idiolect of American English, the words "marry", "Mary",
"merry", "very", "vary", and "hairy" all have exactly the same first
vowel sound. Other American posters have said that the vowel sounds in
those words vary among themselves. I think someone in another thread
has mentioned that the sound of "a" in "marry" can vary from the sound
of the "a" in "cat" to the "e" in "met" in going from one part of
England to another. I would think that the same might be true of the
"a" in "varies".
A British dictionary, _The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_
(1993 edition) (NSOED/93), gives the pronunciation of "vary" using an
IPA symbol that they exemplify by the vowel in "hair". That leaves me
completely in the dark because I don't really know how the English
English pronunciations of the vowels in "hairy" and "merry" differ.
In answer to SG's question "any suggestions?", I suggest that we
abandon attempts to discuss pronunciation differences until we have
available sound files that we can listen to and learn how words are
pronounced in different parts of the world.
Mark Israel
In article <329586...@euronet.nl>, desi...@euronet.nl (Saskia Gartzen) writes:
> I'm interested in whether there is any variation between American and
> English in the pronunciation of the word "varies".
In article <3295a613...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) writes:
> The phrase "between American and English" doesn't sit right with
> me. American is a variety of English just as the language spoken in
> Southern England is a variety of English.
Maybe Saskia uses "Angloid" for the inclusive term. :-)
--
mis...@scripps.edu Mark Israel
"I *suggested* and have occasionally used the word 'Angloid' to
refer to world English as opposed to the English spoken in England.
I think there is considerable merit in the feeling of some residents
of England that the name 'English' should refer to their variety
only and that qualifying adjectives should be attached to 'English'
when referring to another variety or when referring to world English
generically." -- Bob Cunningham
"We should remember that Star Concertina [...] are concertina
experts in the Midwestern sense; that is, bandoneons and Chemnitzers
(the big square suckers). I don't know what their involvement with
Angloid boxes is, but you might try calling ahead and speaking to
John Bernhard." -- Peter Adler
Bob Cunningham
exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) said:
>
> (This message has been modified after it was posted.)
>
What I meant was that the message had been posted, then cancelled,
then modified, then posted again.
JC Dill
why?
jc
>
Bob Cunningham
mis...@scripps.edu (Mark Israel) said:
>In article <329586...@euronet.nl>, desi...@euronet.nl
> (Saskia Gartzen) writes:
>
>> I'm interested in whether there is any variation between American and
>> English in the pronunciation of the word "varies".
>
>In article <3295a613...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
> exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) writes:
>
>> The phrase "between American and English" doesn't sit right with
>> me. American is a variety of English just as the language spoken in
>> Southern England is a variety of English.
>
> Maybe Saskia uses "Angloid" for the inclusive term.
I doubt it.
>"I *suggested* and have occasionally used the word 'Angloid' to
>refer to world English as opposed to the English spoken in England.
>I think there is considerable merit in the feeling of some residents
>of England that the name 'English' should refer to their variety
>only and that qualifying adjectives should be attached to 'English'
>when referring to another variety or when referring to world English
>generically." -- Bob Cunningham
I still feel that way. My objection to SG's remark was that he or
she seemed to be contrasting "English" and "American". Until a more
suitable generic name is adopted for the world's Englishes, we have no
choice but to use "English" for that purpose. It follows that in
referring to the language spoken in England we need to qualify "English"
to show that we're not referring to the global family of English
languages.
The deplorable situation is that while we can speak of our language
as "American" and the Australians can speak of theirs as "Australian",
England has no unambiguous name available for its variety of English.
The term "British English" has been used, but it has been
criticized because it's not restrictive enough. The best compromise
seems to be "English English", which has been used by more than one
British author, including David Crystal in his _The Cambridge
Encyclopedia of the English Language_. (If I remember correctly,
someone in a.u.e. even criticized "English English" because it wasn't
restrictive enough.)
As for "Angloid", its construction is sound, and I haven't seen a
better suggestion. Someone suggested "Anglic" but that has already been
used for a system of reformed spelling. It's unfortunate that the
suffix "-oid", which basically means simply something resembling the
entity suggested by the stem that precedes it, has acquired the
connotation of something weirdly formed. It's also unfortunate that the
element "Anglo" suggests a name that Latinos use with about the same
meaning as the older word "gringo".
Maybe "Englic" would be a better suggestion.
How about "Anglish"? I think Richard Lederer wrote a book called
_Anguished English_. If the term "Anglish" were adopted, then the
language of England would be "English Anglish" and Lederer could write a
book called "Anguished English Anglish".
Keith C. Ivey
exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
> The deplorable situation is that while we can speak of our language
>as "American" and the Australians can speak of theirs as "Australian",
>England has no unambiguous name available for its variety of English.
I haven't noticed many people on a.u.e or elsewhere who refer to
US English as "American" (as opposed to "American English").
The few who do so generally seem to be British bigots who
believe that they own the English language and enjoy pretending
that what Americans speak is a different language, even though
the ability of people from many English-speaking countries to
communicate on this group shows that it isn't.
I'm not sure about "Australian", but it seems jocular to me.
I'm reminded of the book "How to Speak Strine" (or something
similar).
> The term "British English" has been used, but it has been
>criticized because it's not restrictive enough. The best compromise
>seems to be "English English", which has been used by more than one
>British author, including David Crystal in his _The Cambridge
>Encyclopedia of the English Language_. [...]
> As for "Angloid", its construction is sound, and I haven't seen a
>better suggestion.
Do you also propose new words for Spanish, French, Portuguese,
German, Chinese, and every other language that is spoken in a
country other than the one it is named after?
[posted and mailed]
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> Washington, DC
Contributing Editor/Webmaster
The Editorial Eye <http://www.eeicom.com/eye/>
Bob Cunningham
kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey) said:
>exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>
>> The deplorable situation is that while we can speak of our language
>>as "American" and the Australians can speak of theirs as "Australian",
>>England has no unambiguous name available for its variety of English.
>
>I haven't noticed many people on a.u.e or elsewhere who refer to
>US English as "American" (as opposed to "American English").
>The few who do so generally seem to be British bigots who
>believe that they own the English language and enjoy pretending
>that what Americans speak is a different language, even though
>the ability of people from many English-speaking countries to
>communicate on this group shows that it isn't.
At least one poster from the UK has mentioned that he makes an
effort to refrain from using idioms that may not be well-known in the
US. I think I may do a similar thing sometimes. When I realize that
I'm using a word or phrase that I think may be US usage only, I change
it.
>I'm not sure about "Australian", but it seems jocular to me.
>I'm reminded of the book "How to Speak Strine" (or something
>similar).
My remark was that Australians *can* call their language
"Australian". I didn't say they do. The point was that the people of
England have no comparable option.
>> The term "British English" has been used, but it has been
>>criticized because it's not restrictive enough. The best compromise
>>seems to be "English English", which has been used by more than one
>>British author, including David Crystal in his _The Cambridge
>>Encyclopedia of the English Language_. [...]
>
>> As for "Angloid", its construction is sound, and I haven't seen a
>>better suggestion.
>
>Do you also propose new words for Spanish, French, Portuguese,
>German, Chinese, and every other language that is spoken in a
>country other than the one it is named after?
That question provides interesting food for thought. My first
reaction is that those languages are of no concern to me. A second
reaction is that since "Spanish" is an English word, not a Spanish word,
its use in English as a generic term for all the world's Spanishes may
not cause resentment in Spain. A similar remark could be made about the
other languages KI mentions.
Anyway, since we're just having fun thinking up new words and we're
not really going to change anything: sure, what the hell, why not have
generic names for other world languages?
Stian Oksavik
In article <329af4a3....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, exw...@ix.netcom.com
(Bob Cunningham) wrote:
> My remark was that Australians *can* call their language
> "Australian". I didn't say they do. The point was that the people of
> England have no comparable option.
May I suggest:
Anglian
?
;-)
-Stian (who learned Anglian English in school but speaks American English now :)
Rainer Thonnes
In article <329586...@euronet.nl>,
Saskia Gartzen <desi...@euronet.nl> writes:
> I'm nterested in whether there is any variation between American and
> English in the pronunciation of the word "varies". Any suggestions?
No more than usual, that is to say the answer is probably no, but
if you got an American and a Brit to say just that one word, you
could probably tell who was which. Strictly, that would mean the
answer is yes, but then they probably pronounce everything differently,
which renders the question meaningless, so the answer remains no.
Probably.
Chris G. Perrott
Rainer Thonnes wrote:
>
> In article <329586...@euronet.nl>,
> Saskia Gartzen <desi...@euronet.nl> writes:
>
> > I'm nterested in whether there is any variation between American and
> > English in the pronunciation of the word "varies". Any suggestions?
>
> No more than usual, that is to say the answer is probably no,
Since there are Americans who pronounce 'merry', 'marry' and 'Mary' all
the same, they would presumably pronounce 'varies' to rhyme with 'berries'
and 'marries'.
--
Chris Perrott
American Mark `)
The truth is, that we don't pronounce those words the same.. At least not
in the Northeast of the country (America).
"varies" would rhyme with "hairy" minus the "s" of course.
"merry" rhymes with "berry"
"Mary" rhymes with "hairy"
"marry" rhymes with "carry"
none of which are pronounced the same as indicated below.
Raymot
In article
<Pine.OSF.3.91.961127...@thunder.ocis.temple.edu>,
msim...@thunder.ocis.temple.edu says...
>"varies" would rhyme with "hairy" minus the "s" of course.
Nitpick:
There is no "s" in hairy. I'd be inclined to say (if I had to) :
"varies" would rhyme with "hairy" plus an "s", or:
"varies" minus the "s" rhymes with "hairy": or
"varies" rhymes with "hairy"--minus the "s" of course.
[Yes, I've had too much free time this week]
I would rhyme vary with hairy too, but then you don't know
how I say hairy! :)
>"merry" rhymes with "berry"
>"Mary" rhymes with "hairy"
>"marry" rhymes with "carry"
No. "Marry" has a long "a" as in Barry and Larry and Garry.
"Carry" has a short "a" as in parry, tarry, Harry and Carrie.
Raymot
[[[[[[[[[[[[
Markus Laker
kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey):
> I haven't noticed many people on a.u.e or elsewhere who refer to
> US English as "American" (as opposed to "American English").
> The few who do so generally seem to be British bigots who
> believe that they own the English language and enjoy pretending
> that what Americans speak is a different language, even though
> the ability of people from many English-speaking countries to
> communicate on this group shows that it isn't.
Hold on there, Keith. You could probably find some postings from me
calling your language 'American'. It's a convenient shorthand, and I
usually contrast it with one of those two other mythical languages,
British and Brit. If 'Australian' can be jocular, why can't 'American'?
> I'm not sure about "Australian", but it seems jocular to me.
> I'm reminded of the book "How to Speak Strine" (or something
> similar).
Markus Laker.
(Are you Yanking my chain?)
[Posted and mailed.]
--
If you quote this message, I would appreciate an email copy of your reply.
Roots
Raymot <rmot...@powerup.com.au> wrote in article
<57nsp9$r...@grissom.powerup.com.au>...
>
> >"varies" would rhyme with "hairy" minus the "s" of course.
>
No. It would rhyme with Larry's. VAH-rees
Rev. Robert W. Schaibley
"Larry" rhymes with "hairy."
Keith C. Ivey
la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) wrote:
>kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey):
>> I haven't noticed many people on a.u.e or elsewhere who refer to
>> US English as "American" (as opposed to "American English").
>> The few who do so generally seem to be British bigots who
>> believe that they own the English language and enjoy pretending
>> that what Americans speak is a different language, even though
>> the ability of people from many English-speaking countries to
>> communicate on this group shows that it isn't.
>Hold on there, Keith. You could probably find some postings from me
>calling your language 'American'. It's a convenient shorthand, and I
>usually contrast it with one of those two other mythical languages,
>British and Brit. If 'Australian' can be jocular, why can't 'American'?
I don't remember any such postings from you, but you're right,
of course. I got carried away with my condemnation. Talking
facetiously about "American" and "British" as two different
languages is not offensive. It's only contrasting "American"
and "English" that's offensive, and even that might be okay if
it's coming from someone I know and it's clear that it's not
meant seriously.
What's the difference between the two mythical languages British
and Brit?
By the way, here's an example of something mildly offensive that
someone (posting, surprisingly, from Australia) wrote on Usenet:
Actually I think you'll find that Davis speaks accentless
English ie English spoken without any mispronunciation.
Americans seem to often confuse an english accent with
accentless English.
Markus Laker
kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey):
> la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) wrote:
>
> >Hold on there, Keith. You could probably find some postings from me
> >calling your language 'American'. It's a convenient shorthand, and I
> >usually contrast it with one of those two other mythical languages,
> >British and Brit. If 'Australian' can be jocular, why can't 'American'?
[Intelligent response deleted]
> What's the difference between the two mythical languages British
> and Brit?
None other than their names, and the fact that some people perceive the
term 'Brit' to be mildly derogatory. (I don't.)
To drive home the point that you will have understood but others may
have missed, there is of course no single British version of English;
there isn't even a single variety spoken throughout England. That's why
I describe Brit as mythical.
Markus Laker.