the gloomy Dane, origin of
Isabelle Cecchini
Does anyone know when the phrase "the gloomy Dane" was first used to
refer to Hamlet? I've looked in the OED, in the text of the play and in
the sacred vault of the aue archives, but I've found nothing of interest
regarding the matter.
Google helpfully provided a link to a very interesting review
of Zeffirelli's film written by Frank Kermode* who uses the phrase:
"People talk about Hamlet as a gloomy Dane ..." without giving any hint
as to its origin.
http://www.geocities.com/queeniemab/ZeffHamlet.htm
*aka Professor Kermode? Sir Frank Kermode?
--
Isabelle Cecchini
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
<isabelle.cecch...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
> Hello
>
> Does anyone know when the phrase "the gloomy Dane" was first used to
> refer to Hamlet? I've looked in the OED, in the text of the play and in
> the sacred vault of the aue archives, but I've found nothing of interest
> regarding the matter.
What about the real sacred vault, Google Books?
*clang* *crunch* *echo* The first hit on "gloomy Dane" is from 1858,
but it seems to have nothing to do with Hamlet [*].
The second is from "A Masquerade", an apparently anonymous novelette
that appeared in a magazine called /Frank Leslie's Pleasant Hours/ in
1882. It seems to be set at a costume party in which a fair maiden,
garbed as Lalla Rookh [**], converses with an admirable young man in
the character of Hamlet. "Surely, oh, [sic] gloomy Dane, you should
know that the time and the hour comes [sic] which says go, and we can
only obey." A few lines later, she tells him, "You forget I am not a
gloomy Dane who..."
http://books.google.com/books?id=Dr8RAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA405
Hard to tell whether it was a fixed phrase by that time.
[*] From "Raven Hill, or The Danish Fort", a narrative poem by one
Richard Vasey, set in Anglo-Saxon times.
http://books.google.com/books?id=bH8OAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA10
[**] Sic again--transit gloria mundi this time.
--
Jerry Friedman
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
<jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 16, 4:23 am, Isabelle Cecchini<isabelle.cecch...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
> > Hello
>
> > Does anyone know when the phrase "the gloomy Dane" was first used to
> > refer to Hamlet? I've looked in the OED, in the text of the play and in
> > the sacred vault of the aue archives, but I've found nothing of interest
> > regarding the matter.
>
> ...
>
> What about the real sacred vault, Google Books?
>
> *clang* *crunch* *echo* The first hit on "gloomy Dane" is from 1858,
> but it seems to have nothing to do with Hamlet [*].
>
> The second is from "A Masquerade", an apparently anonymous novelette
> that appeared in a magazine called /Frank Leslie's Pleasant Hours/ in
> 1882. It seems to be set at a costume party in which a fair maiden,
> garbed as Lalla Rookh [**], converses with an admirable young man in
> the character of Hamlet.
For those with a pedantic liking for the facts, it's probably more a
short story than a novelette, and the man is a colonel and not young--
though at least he's single.
--
Jerry Friedman
tinwhistler
I think the epithet, Gloomy Dean, was started by journalists as a
playful comparison with Hamlet; consider
http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Gloomy_Dean/
Gloomy Dean: William Ralph Inge (June 6 1860 - February 26 1954) was
an English author, Anglican prelate and professor of divinity at
Cambridge. .. He was nicknamed The Gloomy Dean because of his
pessimistic views on his Evening Standard articles.
--
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> On Feb 16, 1:56 pm, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
>
>
>
> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 16, 3:15 pm, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
>
> > <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On Feb 16, 4:23 am, Isabelle Cecchini<isabelle.cecch...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
> > > > Hello
>
> > > > Does anyone know when the phrase "the gloomy Dane" was first used to
> > > > refer to Hamlet? I've looked in the OED, in the text of the play and in
> > > > the sacred vault of the aue archives, but I've found nothing of interest
> > > > regarding the matter.
>
> > > ...
>
> > > What about the real sacred vault, Google Books?
>
> > > *clang* *crunch* *echo* The first hit on "gloomy Dane" is from 1858,
> > > but it seems to have nothing to do with Hamlet [*].
>
> > > The second is from "A Masquerade", an apparently anonymous novelette
> > > that appeared in a magazine called /Frank Leslie's Pleasant Hours/ in
> > > 1882. It seems to be set at a costume party in which a fair maiden,
> > > garbed as Lalla Rookh [**], converses with an admirable young man in
> > > the character of Hamlet.
>
> > ...
>
> > For those with a pedantic liking for the facts, it's probably more a
> > short story than a novelette, and the man is a colonel and not young--
> > though at least he's single.
> I think the epithet, Gloomy Dean, was started by journalists as a
> playful comparison with Hamlet;
Obaue: I wouldn't have put any commas in the preceding clause.
> consider
> http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Gloomy_Dean/
> Gloomy Dean: William Ralph Inge (June 6 1860 - February 26 1954) was
> an English author, Anglican prelate and professor of divinity at
> Cambridge. .. He was nicknamed The Gloomy Dean because of his
> pessimistic views on his Evening Standard articles.
No doubt you're right, and since he apparently got the epithet shortly
after becoming Dean of St. Paul's in 1911
http://books.google.com/books?id=H_60c74giMQC&pg=PA215
the phrase must have been familiar by then. In fact, it seems to have
been familiar by 1906:
http://books.google.com/books?id=8ekPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA301
--
Jerry Friedman
Isabelle Cecchini
Thanks. So it seems that the phrase must have cropped up at some point
during the second half of the 19th century.
--
Isabelle Cecchini
CDB
>>> On Feb 16, 1:56 pm, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" wrote:
>>>> On Feb 16, 3:15 pm, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" wrote:
I may have missed some postings. Is there a reason for insisting on
"gloomy"? The more familiar form, to me, is "melancholy Dane",
meaning HPOD, and that occurs well back into the eighteenth century.
I haven't made an exhaustive search, and don't know how far back the
phrase goes, but here's an example from 1763 -- the earliest I could
find on GooB:
The penfive melancholy Dane
Deep mourns his royal father flain;
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PsgqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA212&dq=%22melancholy+Dane%22+date:1700-1800&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES
http://tinyurl.com/balww2 .
tinwhistler
> Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
> > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com a écrit :
No reason at all for insisting on gloomy -- I bow to the pensive,
literate Canuck.
Isabelle Cecchini
[answering my question about "the gloomy Dane"]
> I may have missed some postings. Is there a reason for insisting on
> "gloomy"?
Not really. The phrase has recently cropped up in the Foreigner(s)
thread. It was already at the back of my mind to enquire about it, as I
had read a review in the Guardian, I think, about David Tennant's
performance as "the gloomy Dane".
I wondered whether it might be a piece of theatrical slang, like "the
Scottish play", but I couldn't find any evidence for that.
> The more familiar form, to me, is "melancholy Dane",
> meaning HPOD, and that occurs well back into the eighteenth century.
> I haven't made an exhaustive search, and don't know how far back the
> phrase goes, but here's an example from 1763 -- the earliest I could
> find on GooB:
>
> The penfive melancholy Dane
> Deep mourns his royal father flain;
>
> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PsgqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA212&dq=%22melancholy+Dane%22+date:1700-1800&lr=&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES
> http://tinyurl.com/balww2 .
Thank you. I suppose that "gloomy" is a just a variation on "melancholy"
then.
--
Isabelle Cecchini, penfive but not melancholy
James Hogg
<isabelle...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:
>Hello
>
>Does anyone know when the phrase "the gloomy Dane" was first used to
>refer to Hamlet? I've looked in the OED, in the text of the play and in
>the sacred vault of the aue archives, but I've found nothing of interest
>regarding the matter.
It seems to be commonly used about Kierkegaard, but I can't tell
whether he's the original gloomy Dane or it's just a transfer of
the epithet from Hamlet to him.
I also found it applied to Hans Christian Andersen.
James
Mike Lyle
depression, so I wonder if it was translated from a more clinical or
formal expression. Hamlet, of course, was also better described in the
original way as "melancholy" than with the later-applied "gloomy".
--
Mike.
James Hogg
From what I remember of my idle Googling two days ago, the
expression was used in original English texts. I don't think the
Danes would refer to either gentleman as a gloomy Dane. There are
very few hits for "tungsindig(e) dansker" or "melankolsk(e)
dansker". I don't know what else I could search for - maybe some
word beginning with the ubiquitous Danish prefix røv-.
My hunch is that Hamlet was first called a melancholy Dane in
English, and then Kierkegaard came along and got the epithet
gloomy, which was then transferred to Hamlet.
I have absolutely no proof for that, though. This newsgroup is
suddenly full of Danes, but not one of them is of any assistance
on this.
James
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
The first hit I found at Google Books for "'gloomy Dane' Kierkegaard"
is from 1936..
As late as 1897, someone named Edward C. Hegeler wrote, "The
personality of S. Kierkegaard, although a commanding figure in Danish
life and thought, is little known outside the boundaries of his native
country, ..."
http://books.google.com/books?id=8EoUAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA137
The Wikipedia article says the first "academic English translations"
of K.'s work appeared in the 1930s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kierkegaard#Influence_and_reception
I doubt that the third-rate story from 1882 with Hamlet as the gloomy
Dane could have been influenced by a phrase for someone as little
known in the English-speaking world as K. seems to have been then.
--
Jerry Friedman
R H Draney
>
>Was that in translated or original texts? IIRC, Andersen suffered from
>depression, so I wonder if it was translated from a more clinical or
>formal expression. Hamlet, of course, was also better described in the
>original way as "melancholy" than with the later-applied "gloomy".
"She was a melancholy baby; she had a head like a melon and a face like a
collie"
-- Milton Berle
....r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Skitt
> Mike Lyle filted:
>> Was that in translated or original texts? IIRC, Andersen suffered
>> from depression, so I wonder if it was translated from a more
>> clinical or formal expression. Hamlet, of course, was also better
>> described in the original way as "melancholy" than with the
>> later-applied "gloomy".
>
> "She was a melancholy baby; she had a head like a melon and a face
> like a collie"
> -- Milton Berle
Can you play that for me? <hic>
--
Skitt
I may not understand what you say, but
I'll defend to your death my right to deny it.
--Albert Alligator
R H Draney
>
>R H Draney wrote:
>> Mike Lyle filted:
>
>>> Was that in translated or original texts? IIRC, Andersen suffered
>>> from depression, so I wonder if it was translated from a more
>>> clinical or formal expression. Hamlet, of course, was also better
>>> described in the original way as "melancholy" than with the
>>> later-applied "gloomy".
>>
>> "She was a melancholy baby; she had a head like a melon and a face
>> like a collie"
>> -- Milton Berle
>
>Can you play that for me? <hic>
I'll kiww you a miwwion times....r
CDB
Yes, same idea, of course. Depression was fashionable at the time, as
Romeo's friends and relations remark in Act I, and John Dowland built
a career on it. In Darkness Let Me Dwell. Even Milton spent some of
his time in a state of Penferofity.
John Dean
And let's not forget Robert Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/10800
--
John "Gloomy" Dean
Oxford
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>John "Gloomy" Dean
That rings a bell. Hearken: "IngIngIngIngIngInge...".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)