Oh dear. I must be deeply unfashionable, then. I said it only the day
before yesterday. (Irrelevant observation: Daughter will be getting
married at Pinewood studios next year.)
> Whence?
> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
> seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
> I ask again, "Whence?"
Googling suggests a biblical source (John, 9).
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
I've always taken it to be a "not tempting fate" thing such as
the theatrical "break a leg", but I've no idea of its origin.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Golly, impressive. I hope you've managed to get Puttnam. Or Ridley
Scott, perhaps.
--
David
[kohl again, or the bleeding edge of slang]
>> I ask again, "Whence?"
> I've always taken it to be a "not tempting fate" thing such as
> the theatrical "break a leg", but I've no idea of its origin.
I've always thought it was meant pretty literally. Turn glass
bottoms-up, get dregs in eye. Gan bei!
Longman's Dictionary of English Idioms suggests a WW1 origin,
in the trenches. I suppose there was plenty of alcohol available
there, wasn't there?
Philip Eden
Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang
for eye, based on the toast "here's mud in your eye". It says the toast
itself dates from the 1920s, and says it originated in the military --
possibly as a reference to the muddy trenches of WW1.
> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it was
> when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
Today, modern elitist socialites utter a more appropriate
and a more gentile toast for black-tie dinner events,
"Here's To Swimming With Bowlegged Women"
--
Purl Gurl
--
So many are stumped by what slips right off the top of my mind
like a man's bad fitting hairpiece.
> John Dean wrote:
> > "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it was
> > when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
> > Whence?
> > The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
> > seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
> > I ask again, "Whence?"
>
> Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang
> for eye,
You mean "necktie" there. My copy of Cassell's has two entries:
1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
final date of 1940s. (It gives it a starting date *earlier* than the
toast, which makes no sense.)
2) "here's mud in your eye," the toast.
>based on the toast "here's mud in your eye". It says the toast
> itself dates from the 1920s, and says it originated in the military --
> possibly as a reference to the muddy trenches of WW1.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
>Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> John Dean wrote:
>> > "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it was
>> > when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
>> > Whence?
>> > The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
>> > seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
>> > I ask again, "Whence?"
>>
>> Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang
>> for eye,
>
>You mean "necktie" there. My copy of Cassell's has two entries:
>
>1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
>rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
>this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?
>final date of 1940s. (It gives it a starting date *earlier* than the
>toast, which makes no sense.)
>
>2) "here's mud in your eye," the toast.
>
>>based on the toast "here's mud in your eye". It says the toast
>> itself dates from the 1920s, and says it originated in the military --
>> possibly as a reference to the muddy trenches of WW1.
If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
I'm pretty sure I've heard that one from Jews, too.
ŹR
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:56:47 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
>
> >Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> >> John Dean wrote:
> >> > "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast
> >> > it was when Pinewood studios were in their prime. Whence? The usual
> >> > suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
> >> > seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
> >> > I ask again, "Whence?"
> >>
> >> Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang
> >> for eye,
> >
> >You mean "necktie" there. My copy of Cassell's has two entries:
> >
> >1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
> >rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
> >this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
>
> They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?
There were trenches and trenches.
In the men's trenches, certainly not.
The officer's trenches were apart though.
I wouldn't be surprised at all to read
that the officers wore ties on special occasions.
Jan
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:56:47 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
> wrote:
>
> >Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Cassell's slang dictionary says that "mud in your eye" is rhyming slang
> >> for eye,
> >
> >You mean "necktie" there. My copy of Cassell's has two entries:
> >
> >1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
> >rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
> >this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
>
> They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?
Let's take this chronologically. Some time around 1920, people started
saying "Here's mud in your eye" as a toast, for unknown reasons (any
connection to WWI is flimsy). After that saying was established, a few
folks who were into rhyming slang spoke of "a mud's in your eye" to mean
"a necktie."
Yes of course -- stupid of me.
My copy of Cassell's has two entries:
>
> 1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
> rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
> this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
> final date of 1940s. (It gives it a starting date *earlier* than the
> toast, which makes no sense.)
Odd -- we must have different editions, because my copy gives it as "mud
in your eye", followed by [1940s+] which according to the system adopted
in that work means first used in the 1940s, and still in use now. Can't
say I've ever heard it myself, but I've never been much exposed to
rhyming slang. I've heard the toast quite a lot, but it's rather dated now.
My edition of Cassell's is the second, published 2005.
>
>> They wore a lot of neckties in the trenches in WWI?
>
>Let's take this chronologically. Some time around 1920, people started
>saying "Here's mud in your eye" as a toast, for unknown reasons (any
>connection to WWI is flimsy). After that saying was established, a few
>folks who were into rhyming slang spoke of "a mud's in your eye" to mean
>"a necktie."
Thank you. That clears it all up.
And I'm going to spend my time in the Officer's Trench.
Just for the record, although the phrase is well known, possibly from
the movies, I don't believe it's ever used to mean "tie" (we don't say
"necktie") in BrE.
--
David
Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and accommodation
of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der Gemütlichkeit"
I suspect it was a loan translation from Pig Latin "Udmay inay ouryay
eyeay".
--
Woody Wordpecker
Greater Los Angeles, California
USA
I like French toast, but I don't believe I've ever tried Alsatian toast....r
--
Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.
> Purl Gurl wrote:
Oh no, not Jewish men; they are smart. A Jewish man
would not utter such a toast, not if he wants to get
laid by his Jewish Princess in the next ten years.
Here's three hoary old favourites to get the ball rolling:
"Here's looking up your kilt" -- said of course in a cod Scots accent.
The naval toast: "To wives and sweethearts" -- to which the response is
"May they never meet".
"Here's to the girl who lives on the hill; She won't but her sister
will" -- and the roared response: "Here's to her sister".
Fancy seeing a thread here and now concerning this particular
phrase... I wish John had started it about two months ago, when I went
(almost) crazy looking it up, as it appeared in a 1938 British book I
was translating.
I understand there is no conclusive evidence linking the toasting
version to the trenches in WWI, but at the time (of my translation,
not the Great war) I remember reading something along the lines of
soldiers being temporarily blinded by mud in their eyes after an
explosion close by, and being thankful for it because it meant they
were still alive... hence the auspicious meaning. A charming
explanation, I think, even if it were phoney.
Ciao,
--
Isa
Work like you don't need money,
Love like you've never been hurt,
And dance like no one's watching
> "John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote in message
> news:6gdg8qF...@mid.individual.net...
> > "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it
> > was when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
> > Whence?
> > The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
> > seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
> > I ask again, "Whence?"
>
> Like 'plonk' and 'toodleoo', it is an English shortening and accommodation
> of the traditional Alsatian toast "Ein Prosit der Gemütlichkeit"
I like that! "Gemütlichkeit" has the right similarity to "mud in your
eye." All along, I vaguely assumed that "mud in your eye" was an
Anglicization of some foreign toast, but I didn't know which.
You mean the same phenomenon by which "Enfanta de Castilla" turned
into "Elephant and Castle"? Interesting!
> Donna Richoux wrote:
> >
> > 1) "mud's in your eye" (with an "s) as a noun meaning necktie, from
> > rhyming slang. With or without an "s," I don't find any examples of
> > this particular necktie meaning in Google Books. Cassell's gives it a
> > final date of 1940s. (It gives it a starting date *earlier* than the
> > toast, which makes no sense.)
>
> Odd -- we must have different editions, because my copy gives it as "mud
> in your eye", followed by [1940s+] which according to the system adopted
> in that work means first used in the 1940s, and still in use now. Can't
> say I've ever heard it myself, but I've never been much exposed to
> rhyming slang. I've heard the toast quite a lot, but it's rather dated now.
>
> My edition of Cassell's is the second, published 2005.
Mine is marked "First published 1998, First paperback edition 2000" so
yours is newer. The entry in mine for "mud's in your eye" said [late
19C-1940s]. So between my edition and yours, they dropped the 19th
century and added a plus to the 1940s.
Anyway, I'm a convert to the "gemütlichkeit" theory.
Maybe we can blame the automobile. Fewer people today had
impromptu races while getting around on horses in their youth.
Second one to finish gets mud in an eye flung by the hooves
of the lead horse.
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(Or in an octopus's garden, in the shade.)
It's the dog's bollocks ...
--
John Dean
Oxford
Désolé. I do apologise for being tardy. Is there some other thread I could
start in the next few days by way of compensation?
--
John Dean
Oxford
Ah, a favourite UL. See,eg:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ele1.htm
The only 'infanta' the Brits took any notice of had nothing to do with
Castile, and the only Castilian princess who impinged on our consciousness
wasn't an infanta. And the name has only been used since the mid-18th
Century anyway. As we say hereabouts, God Encompasseth Us.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Oh! How gentlemanly of you! Well, I do have a little problem with
"blue-sky ideas" (but I haven't researched it much yet!), and also I'd
like to know what you make of this passage and especially the part
between **:
"Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then
gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold
medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
(Well, the general meaning and the single words are clear. It's the
construction that baffles me a bit, and also the fact that I don't see
napping as a specialty at the "Grump" Olympics.)
(The John in question is DI John Rebus, should anyone happen to be
familiar with the character.)
Thanks a lot...!
>Isabella Z wrote:
...
>> You mean the same phenomenon by which "Enfanta de Castilla" turned
>> into "Elephant and Castle"? Interesting!
>> Ciao,
>
>Ah, a favourite UL. See,eg:
>http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ele1.htm
My, this is great. This is more than enough compensation for being
late elsewhere. (Shame about the Post That Already Got Sent!)
Thanks again,
Ciao
"Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse
which is the runaway favourite to win a race. I rather like the
cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done
before. Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck
me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere
near as badly off as one without.
Philip Eden
"to maudle" is so obscure and obsolete that I'd never seen it before.
> "Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse
> which is the runaway favourite to win a race. I rather like the
> cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done
> before. Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck
> me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere
> near as badly off as one without.
Perhaps he went to Maudlin College Oxford.
--
David
(Yeah, right!)
>"Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse
>which is the runaway favourite to win a race.
Of bloody course. NOW it all makes sense, and thanks a lot for that. I
mean it. Good for my and my translation.
>I rather like the
>cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done
>before.
Yes, I like that too, and it's one of the beauties of English that it
can do that.
>Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck
>me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere
>near as badly off as one without.
Though it seems now, melancholy and his insight into it are the only
company he has, which is rather sad. I like him because he's so real,
and yet I keep hoping for a spot of happiness for him.
Thanks again!
>"John Dean" <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>
>> "Here's mud in your eye" no longer seems to be the fashionable toast it
>> was when Pinewood studios were in their prime.
>> Whence?
>> The usual suspects suggest it began as rhyming sling for a (neck)tie. That
>> seems (a) improbable and (b) unlikely to lead to an alcoholic toast.
>> I ask again, "Whence?"
>> --
>Longman's Dictionary of English Idioms suggests a WW1 origin,
>in the trenches. I suppose there was plenty of alcohol available
>there, wasn't there?
Exactly, for it was during the Roaring Twenties in America that booze
flowed, prohibited or not. From the many films I've watched portraying
that era, I associate the phrase with the 1920s.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
But was rhyming slang popular in 1920s America? I didn't think so.
>Purl Gurl wrote:
>> and a more gentile toast for black-tie dinner events,
>> "Here's To Swimming With Bowlegged Women"
>
>I'm pretty sure I've heard that one from Jews, too.
I first heard it from the boat captain in the movie Jaws. His toast
went, Here's to Swimmin' with Bowlegged Women, which rhymes better.
So that must be where "Prosit!" comes from, which I've heard many
times in German bars.
Uh huh. It looks at first as if "gold medal" has been verbed but the
construction is "... [a] gold medal [would be a] nap ..." ie the medal would
be a certainty. I would disagree that 'nap' in horse racing means a runaway
favourite. In the parlance of the tipsters, they pick their selections for
the card at a meeting and designate one horse as the 'best bet'. This is
their 'nap' and may well not be a favourite at all. In the league tables of
newspaper tipsters, they are usually judged on their 'nap' selections so
it's to their advantage to get the occasional nap at longer odds than the
favourite. The expression probably comes from the card game of Nap where a
'nap' hand' takes all tricks.
The OED cites for the tipsters' 'nap' shows the ideas:
"1895 Starting Price 30 Mar. 1/2 Our 'Outsider's' nap of Docker for the
Hainton Stakes. 1926 Westm. Gaz. 20 July 1/4 The Whip, who yesterday gave
Lightstep, Nap (won 3-1),+continues to hold a strong lead in Naps over the
selections of the other racing critics. 1927 W. E. Collinson Contemp. Eng.
30 He stars this one, and the horse so starred is the nap selection. 1937
E. Rickman On & off Racecourse ix. 195 Every racing writer gives a single
'nap' or starred selection each day. It is his idea of the most promising
bet the programme affords. 1960 Which? Mar. 60/1 The figures in the table
are based on the correspondent's 'nap' selection-the word comes from a card
game-for each day's racing, the horse that he thinks is the best bet."
>
>> I rather like the
>> cod backformation of maudle, though I dare say it's been done
>> before.
>
> Yes, I like that too, and it's one of the beauties of English that it
> can do that.
It's real enough in OED though it *was* originally a back formation:
"1706 Phillips (ed. Kersey), To Maudle, to besot, or put out of Order, as
drinking strong Liquors does in a Morning. Ibid., Maudlin, maudled, half
drunk. 1826 Examiner 124/1 Leaving John Bull to suck his thumbs, and maudle
about 'his good Queen Anne'."
>
>> Rebus is a real grump, although it's occasionally struck
>> me that someone with such insight into his melancholy is nowhere
>> near as badly off as one without.
>
> Though it seems now, melancholy and his insight into it are the only
> company he has, which is rather sad. I like him because he's so real,
> and yet I keep hoping for a spot of happiness for him.
Being a grump is becoming something of a badge of honour. The TV show
"Grumpy Old Men" where elderly slebs complain fetchingly of the trials of
modern life is into its 3rd or 4th series and has spawned '"Grumpy Old
Women" which has, in its turn, become a travelling stage show. Vive les
grognards!
--
John Dean
Oxford
I won't spoil your fun (unless you insist) but I will say that "blue sky"
ideas seemed to follow on, in the business world, from "green field" ideas.
--
John Dean
Oxford
'Prosit' is pretty much the standard German for "Cheers" though it's used in
other expressions too. It may interest you to know it derives from Latin
"may it benefit [you]".
--
John Dean
Oxford
In the middle-late 1960s I had a subscription to the monthly magazine,
"GRUMP". It included, as I remember it, articles by well-known grumps
who were quite articulate in expressing their dismay and/or irritation
at government activities in particular, but quite a spread of
offensive features of modern life. My collection is complete but
misplaced. I do have the button proclaiming, "Watch it—I'm a GRUMP".
http://www.flicklives.com/Magazines/Grump/Grump.htm
--
Frank ess
A few thousand years ago, you could have heard it in Roman bars too.
--
Rob Bannister
>> Oh! How gentlemanly of you! Well, I do have a little problem with
>> "blue-sky ideas" (but I haven't researched it much yet!)
>I won't spoil your fun (unless you insist) but I will say that "blue sky"
>ideas seemed to follow on, in the business world, from "green field" ideas.
The Oxford University Press on line provided help re. blue-sky, and of
course I had a look into greenfield too, since you'd piqued my
curiosity. There indeed seems to be a connection here, like a blue-sky
idea is a greenfield project that has lost all touch with reality. A
bit like the Strait of Messina Bridge, I'd say (or is that a blue-sea
idea?)
Thanks, John.
>Isabella Z wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:05:08 +0100, "Philip Eden"
>> <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:
>>> "Isabella Z" <isabel...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote :
>>>> "Bit maudlin tonight, are we, John?" he asked himself out loud. Then
>>>> gave a little chuckle, knowing he could maudle for Scotland, *gold
>>>> medal a nap* at the Grump Olympics.
...
>>> "Nap", here, is a horse-racing expression which describes a horse
>>> which is the runaway favourite to win a race.
>>
>> Of bloody course. NOW it all makes sense...
You, again! :-)
>Uh huh. It looks at first as if "gold medal" has been verbed but the
>construction is "... [a] gold medal [would be a] nap ..."
I see, a sort of ablative absolute then. (Though I liked the idea of
"gold-medalling a nap"...) The idea is that the gold medal would be a
walkover, right...? (Thanks for all the rest, too.)
>>> Rebus is a real grump...
>Being a grump is becoming something of a badge of honour. The TV show
>"Grumpy Old Men" where elderly slebs complain fetchingly of the trials of
>modern life is into its 3rd or 4th series and has spawned '"Grumpy Old
>Women" which has, in its turn, become a travelling stage show. Vive les
>grognards!
This adds substance to my choice of an Italian equivalent. *That* one
I've nailed, I think.
[toast]
> 'Prosit' is pretty much the standard German for "Cheers" though
> it's used in other expressions too. It may interest you to know it
> derives from Latin "may it benefit [you]".
Ah, yes. I remember seeing (a photo of) a Pompeian graffito, with a
picture of a nice little ass and the motto LABORA ASELLE QVOMODO EGO
LABORAVI ET PRODERIT TIBI: "Work, little donkey, as I have worked, and
it will do you good." Interesting that there is a "d" before forms of
"-esse" beginning with vowels but no doubling of initial consonants
(*prossit). Thought it might be a matter of vowel length, but my
dictionary says the "o" is long in all forms.
>Fred Springer <fred.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Yes, that seems a more likely scenario than a reference to soldiers
having mud in their eyes. Who'd drink to that?
>On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:36:18 +0100, "John Dean"
><john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>>Isabella Z wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:10:45 +0100, "John Dean"
>>> <john...@fraglineone.net> wrote:
>...
>>>> Is there some other thread I
>>>> could start in the next few days by way of compensation?
>
>>> Oh! How gentlemanly of you! Well, I do have a little problem with
>>> "blue-sky ideas" (but I haven't researched it much yet!)
>
>>I won't spoil your fun (unless you insist) but I will say that "blue sky"
>>ideas seemed to follow on, in the business world, from "green field" ideas.
>
>The Oxford University Press on line provided help re. blue-sky, and of
>course I had a look into greenfield too, since you'd piqued my
>curiosity. There indeed seems to be a connection here, like a blue-sky
>idea is a greenfield project that has lost all touch with reality. A
>bit like the Strait of Messina Bridge, I'd say (or is that a blue-sea
>idea?)
In the US, "blue-sky" thinking is out-of-the-box thinking...'way
out-of-the-box. An executive might charge his underlings to "blue-sky
this concept" meaning "come up with any possible idea, problem,
solution, technique, plan, etc that can even remotely be considered
applicable". It opens the discussion to suggestions that might not
make sense on their own, but might lead to modifications or
elaboration that do make sense.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida