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albeit/notwithstanding/nevertheless interchangable?
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Wén Shào
Mar 23, 2012, 10:29:54 PM3/23/12
to
Hey Guys,
Are albeit/notwithstanding/nevertheless interchangable?
For example,
* He went, notwithstanding he was ordered to stay.
* Notwithstanding her naughtiness, I love my little girl.
* He tried to prevent the marriage but it still took place notwithstanding.
* His letter was published, albeit in an edited form.
* clear albeit cold weather.
Is it correct to replace "notwithstanding" with "albeit" in the first three sentences? I feel like it can't be right if "albeit" in the last two sentences is replaced by "notwithstanding" or "nevertheless"; however, I am not terribly sure about this.
Also the first three sentences use "notwithstanding" in different ways: the first one uses it to link to sentences; the second is more like a preposition "notwithstanding + something, ..."; I have no clue about the third one inasmuch as I was taught "outwithstanding" and "but" should never appear in one sentence in general.
Cheers,
Wén
Are albeit/notwithstanding/nevertheless interchangable?
For example,
* He went, notwithstanding he was ordered to stay.
* Notwithstanding her naughtiness, I love my little girl.
* He tried to prevent the marriage but it still took place notwithstanding.
* His letter was published, albeit in an edited form.
* clear albeit cold weather.
Is it correct to replace "notwithstanding" with "albeit" in the first three sentences? I feel like it can't be right if "albeit" in the last two sentences is replaced by "notwithstanding" or "nevertheless"; however, I am not terribly sure about this.
Also the first three sentences use "notwithstanding" in different ways: the first one uses it to link to sentences; the second is more like a preposition "notwithstanding + something, ..."; I have no clue about the third one inasmuch as I was taught "outwithstanding" and "but" should never appear in one sentence in general.
Cheers,
Wén
Jerry Friedman
Mar 24, 2012, 1:09:09 AM3/24/12
to
On Mar 23, 8:29 pm, Wén Shào <90b5.6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Guys,
>
> Are albeit/notwithstanding/nevertheless interchangable?
Not entirely.
> Hey Guys,
>
> Are albeit/notwithstanding/nevertheless interchangable?
> For example,
> * He went, notwithstanding he was ordered to stay.
> * Notwithstanding her naughtiness, I love my little girl.
> * He tried to prevent the marriage but it still took place notwithstanding.
> * His letter was published, albeit in an edited form.
> * clear albeit cold weather.
> Is it correct to replace "notwithstanding" with "albeit" in the first three sentences?
> I feel like it can't be right if "albeit" in the last two sentences is replaced by "notwithstanding" or "nevertheless"; however, I am not terribly sure about this.
> Also the first three sentences use "notwithstanding" in different ways: the first one uses it to link to sentences; the second is more like a preposition "notwithstanding + something, ...";
much more familiar to me--the other senses ("although" and
"nevertheless") look strange. It can also be a postposition: "Her
naughtiness notwithstanding, I love my little girl."
> I have no clue about the third one inasmuch as I was taught "outwithstanding" and "but" should never appear in one sentence in general.
never using them. You undoubtedly have different tastes in words, so
I'll just mention that my solution is completely workable--despite the
comments on different shades of meaning at
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/notwithstanding?s=t
I suppose I might conceivably use either word in verse.
"Miniver loved the Medici,
Albeit he had never seen one;
He would have sinned incessantly
Could he have been one."
--E. A. Robinson
--
Jerry Friedman is not comparing himself to Robinson.
Marius Hancu
Mar 24, 2012, 4:28:39 AM3/24/12
to
On Mar 23, 10:29 pm, Wén Shào <90b5.6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> * Notwithstanding her naughtiness, I love my little girl.
Don't use * for a marker, as it means "incorrect" in grammar/
> * Notwithstanding her naughtiness, I love my little girl.
linguistics.
"Notwithstanding" seems to me too formal/heavy for the context.
I'd see:
Despite her naughtiness, I [still] love my little girl.
With all her naughtiness, I [still] love my little girl.
Naughtiness and all, I still love my little girl.
--
Gorgeous for God: The Power to Change the World by Changing Your Mind
- Page 270
Lisa Natoli - 2007 - 348 pages - Preview
You know that despite all your naughtiness, Santa still brought you
presents.
--
Marius Hancu
Harrison Hill
Mar 24, 2012, 4:40:21 AM3/24/12
to
On Saturday, March 24, 2012 2:29:54 AM UTC, Wén Shào wrote:
> Hey Guys,
>
> Are albeit/notwithstanding/nevertheless interchangable?
>
> For example,
> * He went, notwithstanding he was ordered to stay.
This is dreadful.
> Hey Guys,
>
> Are albeit/notwithstanding/nevertheless interchangable?
>
> For example,
> * He went, notwithstanding he was ordered to stay.
"He went notwithstanding *the fact that* he was ordered to stay", just about gets away with it.
> * Notwithstanding her naughtiness, I love my little girl.
> * He tried to prevent the marriage but it still took place notwithstanding.
> * His letter was published, albeit in an edited form.
> * clear albeit cold weather.
> Is it correct to replace "notwithstanding" with "albeit" in the first three sentences? I feel like it can't be right if "albeit" in the last two sentences is replaced by "notwithstanding" or "nevertheless"; however, I am not terribly sure about this.
>
> Also the first three sentences use "notwithstanding" in different ways: the first one uses it to link to sentences; the second is more like a preposition "notwithstanding + something, ..."; I have no clue about the third one inasmuch as I was taught "outwithstanding" and "but" should never appear in one sentence in general.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wén
Eric Walker
Mar 24, 2012, 6:19:42 AM3/24/12
to
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 19:29:54 -0700, Wén Shào wrote:
> Are albeit/notwithstanding/nevertheless interchangable?
No. "Albeit" and "nevertheless" are different parts of speech, and the
three have related senses (disjunction) but are not quite synonyms.
"Albeit" is a conjunction. It means "even if it be", so that A albeit B
suggests that A and B are normally felt to be contrary or unlikely
associates, as in "clear albeit cold weather" (from the AHD), because
there is a tendency to associate cold weather with overcast.
"Nevertheless" is an adverb meaning roughly "yet" (in the sense of
"but"), as in "a small, nevertheless fatal error".
"Notwithstanding" can be a conjunction or a preposition or an adjective.
As a preposition or as a conjunction, it signifies "despite" ("the teams
played notwithstanding the rain"). As an adjective, it signifies "all
the same; nevertheless") ("We proceeded, notwithstanding.") My sense of
it is that it is commonest as a preposition, though most often used as
what some call a "postposition" (trailing preposition): "His faults
notwithstanding, I like him."
I am not the word's greatest parser, but here is my take:
> 1 He went, notwithstanding he was ordered to stay.
I take that to be intended as a prepositional use (so that what follows
the preposition wants to be a noun phrase). It would thus want to be:
1a "He went, notwithstanding his having been ordered to stay."
(Or 1b, "He went, his having been ordered to stay notwithstanding.")
> 2 Notwithstanding her naughtiness, I love my little girl.
OK, but again I think more common as "Her naughtiness notwithstanding, &c
&c," which I again take to be a prepositional use.
> 3 He tried to prevent the marriage but it still took place
> notwithstanding.
One of "still" and "notwithstanding" is redundant. I reckon it would be:
3a "He tried to prevent the marriage[,] but it took place his
objections notwithstanding."
I think that is again prepositional--compare "He tried to prevent the
marriage[,] but it took place despite his objections."
> Is it correct to replace "notwithstanding" with "albeit" in the first
> three sentences?
In #1, it converts it to a proper form:
He went, albeit he was ordered to stay.
In #2 and #3 a preposition cannot be replaced by a conjunction.
> 4 His letter was published, albeit in an edited form.
> 5 clear albeit cold weather.
speech. If we try the conjunctive form of "notwithstanding", we change
the sense, because "albeit" signifies a direct contrast between A and B
(whole letter vs edited letter), whereas conjunctive "notwithstanding"
implies that B opposes A ("His letter was published notwithstanding its
attack on the newspaper's editor.")
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
> Are albeit/notwithstanding/nevertheless interchangable?
No. "Albeit" and "nevertheless" are different parts of speech, and the
three have related senses (disjunction) but are not quite synonyms.
"Albeit" is a conjunction. It means "even if it be", so that A albeit B
suggests that A and B are normally felt to be contrary or unlikely
associates, as in "clear albeit cold weather" (from the AHD), because
there is a tendency to associate cold weather with overcast.
"Nevertheless" is an adverb meaning roughly "yet" (in the sense of
"but"), as in "a small, nevertheless fatal error".
"Notwithstanding" can be a conjunction or a preposition or an adjective.
As a preposition or as a conjunction, it signifies "despite" ("the teams
played notwithstanding the rain"). As an adjective, it signifies "all
the same; nevertheless") ("We proceeded, notwithstanding.") My sense of
it is that it is commonest as a preposition, though most often used as
what some call a "postposition" (trailing preposition): "His faults
notwithstanding, I like him."
I am not the word's greatest parser, but here is my take:
> 1 He went, notwithstanding he was ordered to stay.
I take that to be intended as a prepositional use (so that what follows
the preposition wants to be a noun phrase). It would thus want to be:
1a "He went, notwithstanding his having been ordered to stay."
(Or 1b, "He went, his having been ordered to stay notwithstanding.")
> 2 Notwithstanding her naughtiness, I love my little girl.
OK, but again I think more common as "Her naughtiness notwithstanding, &c
&c," which I again take to be a prepositional use.
> 3 He tried to prevent the marriage but it still took place
> notwithstanding.
One of "still" and "notwithstanding" is redundant. I reckon it would be:
3a "He tried to prevent the marriage[,] but it took place his
objections notwithstanding."
I think that is again prepositional--compare "He tried to prevent the
marriage[,] but it took place despite his objections."
> Is it correct to replace "notwithstanding" with "albeit" in the first
> three sentences?
He went, albeit he was ordered to stay.
In #2 and #3 a preposition cannot be replaced by a conjunction.
> 4 His letter was published, albeit in an edited form.
> 5 clear albeit cold weather.
>
> I feel like it can't be right if "albeit" in the last two sentences is
> replaced by "notwithstanding" or "nevertheless"; however, I am not
> terribly sure about this.
"Nevertheless" would be wrong because it's just the wrong part of
> I feel like it can't be right if "albeit" in the last two sentences is
> replaced by "notwithstanding" or "nevertheless"; however, I am not
> terribly sure about this.
speech. If we try the conjunctive form of "notwithstanding", we change
the sense, because "albeit" signifies a direct contrast between A and B
(whole letter vs edited letter), whereas conjunctive "notwithstanding"
implies that B opposes A ("His letter was published notwithstanding its
attack on the newspaper's editor.")
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Jerry Friedman
Mar 24, 2012, 10:57:11 AM3/24/12
to
On Mar 24, 4:19 am, Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
...
> "Notwithstanding" can be a conjunction or a preposition or an adjective.
> As a preposition or as a conjunction, it signifies "despite" ("the teams
> played notwithstanding the rain"). As an adjective, it signifies "all
> the same; nevertheless") ("We proceeded, notwithstanding.")
I think you mean "adverb", not "adjective", both times.
> My sense of
> it is that it is commonest as a preposition, though most often used as
> what some call a "postposition" (trailing preposition): "His faults
> notwithstanding, I like him."
...
Agreed.
--
Jerry Friedman
...
> "Notwithstanding" can be a conjunction or a preposition or an adjective.
> As a preposition or as a conjunction, it signifies "despite" ("the teams
> played notwithstanding the rain"). As an adjective, it signifies "all
> the same; nevertheless") ("We proceeded, notwithstanding.")
> My sense of
> it is that it is commonest as a preposition, though most often used as
> what some call a "postposition" (trailing preposition): "His faults
> notwithstanding, I like him."
Agreed.
--
Jerry Friedman
Eric Walker
Mar 24, 2012, 5:55:47 PM3/24/12
to
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 07:57:11 -0700, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Mar 24, 4:19 am, Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote: ...
>
>> "Notwithstanding" can be a conjunction or a preposition or an
>> adjective. As a preposition or as a conjunction, it signifies "despite"
>> ("the teams played notwithstanding the rain"). As an adjective, it
>> signifies "all the same; nevertheless") ("We proceeded,
>> notwithstanding.")
>
> I think you mean "adverb", not "adjective", both times. . . .
> On Mar 24, 4:19 am, Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote: ...
>
>> "Notwithstanding" can be a conjunction or a preposition or an
>> adjective. As a preposition or as a conjunction, it signifies "despite"
>> ("the teams played notwithstanding the rain"). As an adjective, it
>> signifies "all the same; nevertheless") ("We proceeded,
>> notwithstanding.")
>
Yes. Caught myself once (on a sentence later deleted), but apparently
just reverted. Weird.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Robert Bannister
Mar 24, 2012, 8:20:56 PM3/24/12
to
I was a trifle uncomfortable with "He went, albeit he was ordered to
stay", but maybe that's just the way I am used to using "albeit".
--
Robert Bannister
Wén Shào
Mar 30, 2012, 8:29:31 AM3/30/12
to
On Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:28:39 PM UTC+11, Marius Hancu wrote:
> On Mar 23, 10:29 pm, Wén Shào <90b5.6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > * Notwithstanding her naughtiness, I love my little girl.
>
> Don't use * for a marker, as it means "incorrect" in grammar/
> linguistics.
>
Interesting, I didn't know this. What I should use then to make enumerations in plain text mode?
> On Mar 23, 10:29 pm, Wén Shào <90b5.6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > * Notwithstanding her naughtiness, I love my little girl.
>
> Don't use * for a marker, as it means "incorrect" in grammar/
> linguistics.
>
>
> "Notwithstanding" seems to me too formal/heavy for the context.
>
Thanks heaps, :)
Mark Brader
Apr 2, 2012, 6:31:24 PM4/2/12
to
Wén Shào:
consider it appropriate to use that linguists' notation here.
However, in alt.usage.english a numbered list is often convennient,
because it allows people to say things like "1 or 3 is better than 2"
in their followups.
--
Mark Brader | The "I didn't think of that" type of failure occurs because
Toronto | I didn't think of that, and the reason I didn't think of it
m...@vex.net | is because it never occurred to me. If we'd been able to
| think of 'em, we would have. -- John W. Campbell
My text in this article is in the public domain.
>>> * Notwithstanding her naughtiness, I love my little girl.
Marius Hancu:
>> Don't use * for a marker, as it means "incorrect" in grammar/
>> linguistics.
Wén Shào:
>> linguistics.
> Interesting, I didn't know this. What I should use then to make
> enumerations in plain text mode?
Well, * is the usual bullet character in plain ASCII text. I don't
> enumerations in plain text mode?
consider it appropriate to use that linguists' notation here.
However, in alt.usage.english a numbered list is often convennient,
because it allows people to say things like "1 or 3 is better than 2"
in their followups.
--
Mark Brader | The "I didn't think of that" type of failure occurs because
Toronto | I didn't think of that, and the reason I didn't think of it
m...@vex.net | is because it never occurred to me. If we'd been able to
| think of 'em, we would have. -- John W. Campbell
My text in this article is in the public domain.
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