Re: Calendars - sort of OT
Cheryl
> Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca>:
>> I knew that it is possible to get calendars that vary from Sunday to
>> Saturday across the top, but hadn't happened to use them.
>
> Most calendars in North America are like that, aren't they?
>
> Oops! Scrub that comment. On a tenth reading I see what you meant. Vary
> as in "don't go", not vary as in "go".
>
>> And if anyone had asked me how I use a calendar, I would have said I
>> read what is on it. This one, however, goes from Monday-Sunday,
>> and I quickly realized that I was not actually reading 'Wednesday',
>> looking a row down, and reading '6'. I was picking out the number in
>> the centre of the first row, reading that, and concluding 'Wednesday is
>> the 7th'.
>
> You obviously have a strong sense of place, as I do. I would never buy a
> calendar where weeks apparently started on Sunday. Also, somewhat
> irrelevantly, I have a strong preference for days of the week down the
> side, not across the top.
>
I've never seen one with the days down the side. That would really
confuse me!
Yes, I was confused above. Almost every calendar I have ever seen starts
the week on a Sunday. I know others exist, because those versions are
options sometimes when I use a template or some computer program to
generate a calendar, but I've never used one.
Conventions (like which day comes first)are only helpful so long as they
are observed!
--
Cheryl
Nick Spalding
on Wed, 06 Jan 2010 07:58:54 -0330:
> Yes, I was confused above. Almost every calendar I have ever seen starts
> the week on a Sunday. I know others exist, because those versions are
> options sometimes when I use a template or some computer program to
> generate a calendar, but I've never used one.
>
> Conventions (like which day comes first)are only helpful so long as they
> are observed!
The convention in the UK and Ireland is Monday first. Microsoft knows
this. With my normal regional settings for Ireland the Windows calendar
starts on Monday and the same if I set them to UK. If I change them to
USA it starts on Sunday.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Mike Barnes
>Mike Barnes wrote:
>> Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca>:
>>> I knew that it is possible to get calendars that vary from Sunday to
>>> Saturday across the top, but hadn't happened to use them.
>> Most calendars in North America are like that, aren't they?
>> Oops! Scrub that comment. On a tenth reading I see what you meant.
>>Vary
>> as in "don't go", not vary as in "go".
>>
>>> And if anyone had asked me how I use a calendar, I would have said I
>>> read what is on it. This one, however, goes from Monday-Sunday,
>>> and I quickly realized that I was not actually reading 'Wednesday',
>>> looking a row down, and reading '6'. I was picking out the number in
>>> the centre of the first row, reading that, and concluding 'Wednesday is
>>> the 7th'.
>> You obviously have a strong sense of place, as I do. I would never
>>buy a
>> calendar where weeks apparently started on Sunday. Also, somewhat
>> irrelevantly, I have a strong preference for days of the week down the
>> side, not across the top.
>>
>
>I've never seen one with the days down the side.
http://www.ataglance.uk.com/ataglance_website/images/90M-600.jpg
>That would really confuse me!
I imagine it would, but I like to cut off past weeks so that I can see
at least three weeks ahead. That's not possible with the traditional
design.
>Yes, I was confused above. Almost every calendar I have ever seen
>starts the week on a Sunday.
I think that's the North American tradition. In the UK, the weeks starts
on Monday and calendars generally reflect this. Of course there are
exceptions, usually designed for other markets and thoughtlessly
imported.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Cheryl
It must be the convention in New Zealand as well, since that's where the
calendar comes from.
I'm sure the ones from Australia I've had started on Sunday.
--
Cheryl
Mike Barnes
>I knew that it is possible to get calendars that vary from Sunday to
>Saturday across the top, but hadn't happened to use them.
Most calendars in North America are like that, aren't they?
Oops! Scrub that comment. On a tenth reading I see what you meant. Vary
as in "don't go", not vary as in "go".
>And if anyone had asked me how I use a calendar, I would have said I
>read what is on it. This one, however, goes from Monday-Sunday,
>and I quickly realized that I was not actually reading 'Wednesday',
>looking a row down, and reading '6'. I was picking out the number in
>the centre of the first row, reading that, and concluding 'Wednesday is
>the 7th'.
You obviously have a strong sense of place, as I do. I would never buy a
calendar where weeks apparently started on Sunday. Also, somewhat
irrelevantly, I have a strong preference for days of the week down the
side, not across the top.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Cheryl
interpreting printed words as in interpreting patterns.
I usually get a large wall calendar every year from a friend in
Australia, and every year I put it up in my office. This year, I rapidly
discovered Something was Wrong, so I examined the calendar more closely.
I knew that it is possible to get calendars that vary from Sunday to
Saturday across the top, but hadn't happened to use them. And if anyone
had asked me how I use a calendar, I would have said I read what is on
it. This one, however, goes from Monday-Sunday, and I quickly realized
that I was not actually reading 'Wednesday', looking a row down, and
reading '6'. I was picking out the number in the centre of the first
row, reading that, and concluding 'Wednesday is the 7th'.
I would never have thought such a minor change would confuse my reading
skills to that extent!
--
Cheryl
Bertel Lund Hansen
> I think that's the North American tradition. In the UK, the weeks starts
> on Monday and calendars generally reflect this. Of course there are
> exceptions, usually designed for other markets and thoughtlessly
> imported.
Danish calenders start on Monday. That may be because somebody
takes "weekend" literally.
--
Bertel, Denmark
James Hogg
It's also sensible to have Saturday and Sunday side by side, not only in
real life but also on the calendar.
--
James
Jonathan Morton
news:MPKFxPSN...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid...
>
>>Yes, I was confused above. Almost every calendar I have ever seen
>>starts the week on a Sunday.
>
> I think that's the North American tradition. In the UK, the weeks starts
> on Monday and calendars generally reflect this. Of course there are
> exceptions, usually designed for other markets and thoughtlessly
> imported.
I see both. But, as the OP observed, the advantage of Sunday first is that
the middle of the working week is the middle of the calendar also.
Outlook 2003 and earlier had Sat/Sun as (in effect) one day. I rather liked
that. Outlook 2007 has been improved so that Thursday appears to be way
before the weekend.
Regards
Jonathan
Mike Barnes
>"Mike Barnes" <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
>news:MPKFxPSN...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid...
>>
>>>Yes, I was confused above. Almost every calendar I have ever seen
>>>starts the week on a Sunday.
>>
>> I think that's the North American tradition. In the UK, the weeks starts
>> on Monday and calendars generally reflect this. Of course there are
>> exceptions, usually designed for other markets and thoughtlessly
>> imported.
>
>I see both. But, as the OP observed, the advantage of Sunday first is that
>the middle of the working week is the middle of the calendar also.
I think she used that as an example without claiming any particular
advantage. It's hardly an advantage over the start of the working week
being at the start of the calendar week. And both pale into
insignificance compared with advantage of the calendar days being where
you expect them to be.
Cheryl
in the middle and Sunday on the left where it belongs. That's an
advantage to me personally, because I expect to find Wednesday in the
middle, and as I have discovered, don't actually read the word on the
top of the column to see if it says 'Wednesday'. I can quite see that a
calendar with my preferred arrangement would cause a disadvantage to
someone used to both weekend days at one end, instead of one at each
end; or days of the week at the side. I looked at that one, and decided
it looked really odd to me.
It's mildly interesting to discover how much habit affects the use of
one of the commonest time-telling objects, like a calendar, and how many
versions there are that *don't* use the 'obvious' arrangement. Clocks,
in spite of the 12/24 options and the digital/analogue issue don't seem
to provide as varied options.
--
Cheryl
Mike Barnes
>It's mildly interesting to discover how much habit affects the use of
>one of the commonest time-telling objects, like a calendar, and how
>many versions there are that *don't* use the 'obvious' arrangement.
>Clocks, in spite of the 12/24 options and the digital/analogue issue
>don't seem to provide as varied options.
http://www.designboom.com/contemporary/timepieces/09.jpg
http://www.eatnineghost.com/wp-content/uploads/unusual-watch/watch02.jpg
http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/unusual-citizen-watches-01.jpg
http://www.designboom.com/contemporary/timepieces/06.jpg
http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/eleeno_cyber_lcd_watch.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7H17kbwrqqc/R0W125_mftI/AAAAAAAAAyI/5arutnaEafQ/s320/equilibrium-watch-250-projects-us.JPG
http://c0378172.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/11403_70409100519.jpg
R H Draney
American calendars start on Sunday because somebody takes "weekend"
literally...like a piece of rope, a week has two ends, one at the start and the
other at the finish....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Garrett Wollman
Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>I think she used that as an example without claiming any particular
>advantage. It's hardly an advantage over the start of the working week
>being at the start of the calendar week.
So what do they do in German-speaking countries, where Wednesday is
Mittwoch ("mid-week"), or in Finland (keskiviikko, a calque of the
German)?
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Jonathan Morton
news:7qjs51...@mid.individual.net...
>
> It's mildly interesting to discover how much habit affects the use of one
> of the commonest time-telling objects, like a calendar, and how many
> versions there are that *don't* use the 'obvious' arrangement. Clocks, in
> spite of the 12/24 options and the digital/analogue issue don't seem to
> provide as varied options.
No, but the analogue clock is a good example of the phenomenon you
described. I have just glanced at my watch and noticed that it's sort of
half-way between quarter-past and half-past something that's in the bottom
left-hand quadrant of the dial. So in split second, I know exactly what time
it is. You tried to do the same with the calendar.
Regards
Jonathan
John Varela
I've always assumed it has to do with differing opinion as to which
is the seventh day, the Sabbath.
--
John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email
John Varela
<jonathan.mortonb...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> "Mike Barnes" <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
> news:MPKFxPSN...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid...
> >
> >>Yes, I was confused above. Almost every calendar I have ever seen
> >>starts the week on a Sunday.
> >
> > I think that's the North American tradition. In the UK, the weeks starts
> > on Monday and calendars generally reflect this. Of course there are
> > exceptions, usually designed for other markets and thoughtlessly
> > imported.
>
> I see both. But, as the OP observed, the advantage of Sunday first is that
> the middle of the working week is the middle of the calendar also.
In defiance of local custom I have my computer calendar set up with
Sunday as the last day because I want to see the weekend days side
by side.
Mike Barnes
>American calendars start on Sunday because somebody takes "weekend"
>literally...like a piece of rope, a week has two ends, one at the start and the
>other at the finish....r
That would make it "weekends". Which it isn't.
British calendars start on Monday so that the weekend is at the end of
the week. Our brains are too small to cope with anything more
complicated than that.
Mike Barnes
>In article <GBhnCpZh...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,
>Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>>I think she used that as an example without claiming any particular
>>advantage. It's hardly an advantage over the start of the working week
>>being at the start of the calendar week.
>
>So what do they do in German-speaking countries, where Wednesday is
>Mittwoch ("mid-week"), or in Finland (keskiviikko, a calque of the
>German)?
I expected German calendars to run Mo-So, and a quick web search
provides some confirmation.
http://www.stop-in-esslingen.de/attachments/Image/KALENDAR.png
http://enkler.tempw7.internet1.de/dasblog/dasblogce/content/binary/KAlendar.png
I don't imagine for one moment that Mittwoch not being the central
column on a calendar is in any way troublesome.
Prai Jei
> I knew that it is possible to get calendars that vary from Sunday to
> Saturday across the top, but hadn't happened to use them.
Some people are quibbling about "vary" here. No problem - it's like
the "For" statement in computer language like Basic and C:
For X = 1 To 10
means that X "varies" from 1 to 10 i.e. take each value in turn.
> This one, however, goes from Monday-Sunday,
Heresy!!! Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day of the
week. For Christians it's the most important day and is so designated in
the Gospels, coming the day after Jewish Sabbath (the seventh day of the
previous week).
Monday only begins the week in the world of Mammon, where Sunday is
relegated to the end of the week, frequently scrunched into the same square
as Saturday.
> I would never have thought such a minor change would confuse my reading
> skills to that extent!
It's not a minor change but a total paradigm shift. (Good expression that -
what does it mean?) My advice: scrub that calendar and get a proper one.
You may even be able to get one half price now the year has started.
Alternately if you have an old calendar from 1999 re-use it since the dates
and days of the week will match, though Easter and dates relative to
Easter, won't match.
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Prai Jei
continuum:
> No, but the analogue clock is a good example of the phenomenon you
> described. I have just glanced at my watch and noticed that it's sort of
> half-way between quarter-past and half-past something that's in the bottom
> left-hand quadrant of the dial. So in split second, I know exactly what
> time it is. You tried to do the same with the calendar.
I have encountered an extreme example of knowing things by position rather
than name/number. I could not remember a customer's phone number despite
having called them many times over the past few days. It turned out what I
had remembered was not the sequence of digits, but the sequence of finger
movements required to dial it. Only by tapping the number out on an
imaginary keyboard could I translate the number into actual digits for
somebody else to key in on a mobile.
R H Draney
>
>Alternately if you have an old calendar from 1999 re-use it since the dates
>and days of the week will match, though Easter and dates relative to
>Easter, won't match.
And if that's a concern to you, put the calendar away and bring it back out in
2021....r
annily
Yes, most Australian calendars I have seen start on Sunday.
--
Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.
Evan Kirshenbaum
So the North Americans go with the older Jewish sabbath and the
Europeans with the Christian one that replaced it?
I'm curious, though, do Christians (Seventh-Day Adventists excepted)
really think of Sunday as the sabbath described in the Genesis story?
That would be hard to reconcile with the gospels, which had Jesus
crucified on Friday because it had to be finished before the sabbath
and the women finding him missing on Sunday morning, after the sabbath
was over.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Other computer companies have spent
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |15 years working on fault-tolerant
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |computers. Microsoft has spent
|its time more fruitfully, working
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |on fault-tolerant *users*.
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Cheryl set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum:
>
>> I knew that it is possible to get calendars that vary from Sunday to
>> Saturday across the top, but hadn't happened to use them.
>
> Some people are quibbling about "vary" here. No problem - it's like
> the "For" statement in computer language like Basic and C:
> For X = 1 To 10
> means that X "varies" from 1 to 10 i.e. take each value in turn.
And that's the sense she *didn't* mean, right?
>> This one, however, goes from Monday-Sunday,
It normally runs Sunday to Saturday, and this one "varies" by being
different.
> Heresy!!! Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day of the
> week. For Christians it's the most important day and is so designated in
> the Gospels, coming the day after Jewish Sabbath (the seventh day of the
> previous week).
I don't recall anywhere in the Gospels that it's called "the most
important day". It's designated as "the first day of the week" (Matt
28:1, Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:19), presumably because that's the
way it would likely have been designated in Aramaic by Jews (and is
today in Hebrew (/jom riSon/)) due to it being the day after the
Sabbath, which is the seventh day.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It's gotten to the point where the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |only place you can get work done is
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |at home, because no one bugs you,
|and the best place to entertain
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |yourself is at work, because the
(650)857-7572 |Internet connections are faster.
| Scott Adams
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
the Omrud
> Heresy!!! Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day of the
> week. For Christians it's the most important day and is so designated in
> the Gospels, coming the day after Jewish Sabbath (the seventh day of the
> previous week).
That's probably illegal talk in Ireland these days.
--
David
Bertel Lund Hansen
> American calendars start on Sunday because somebody takes "weekend"
> literally...like a piece of rope, a week has two ends, one at the start and the
> other at the finish....r
A piece of rope can be turned either way.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
> No, but the analogue clock is a good example of the phenomenon you
> described. I have just glanced at my watch and noticed that it's sort of
> half-way between quarter-past and half-past something that's in the bottom
> left-hand quadrant of the dial. So in split second, I know exactly what time
> it is.
This is why I prefer an analog clock display. As a teacher I
needed to look at the clock and know immediately how many minutes
remained of the lesson.
--
Bertel, Denmark
James Hogg
Some early Christians thought of Sunday as the eighth day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity
--
James
Bertel Lund Hansen
> I have encountered an extreme example of knowing things by position rather
> than name/number. I could not remember a customer's phone number despite
> having called them many times over the past few days. It turned out what I
> had remembered was not the sequence of digits, but the sequence of finger
> movements required to dial it. Only by tapping the number out on an
> imaginary keyboard could I translate the number into actual digits for
> somebody else to key in on a mobile.
A type of Danish bike lock (not safe enough anymore - picture
here):
http://www.fototime.com/photos/st/1ED5A22E52E84C6EA80967B6BA1791AC/Basta.jpg
has six pins that can be pushed, left untouched or pulled out. It
happened all the time when somebody wanted to borrow a bike, that
the owner had to physically unlock the bike because his fingers
and not his brain remembered the combination.
--
Bertel, Denmark
franzi
> "John Varela" <OLDla...@verizon.net> writes:
> > On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:50:30 UTC, Bertel Lund Hansen
> > <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
> >> Mike Barnes skrev:
>
> >> > I think that's the North American tradition. In the UK, the weeks
> >> > starts on Monday and calendars generally reflect this. Of course
> >> > there are exceptions, usually designed for other markets and
> >> > thoughtlessly imported.
>
> >> Danish calenders start on Monday. That may be because somebody
> >> takes "weekend" literally.
>
> > I've always assumed it has to do with differing opinion as to which
> > is the seventh day, the Sabbath.
>
> So the North Americans go with the older Jewish sabbath and the
> Europeans with the Christian one that replaced it?
>
> I'm curious, though, do Christians (Seventh-Day Adventists excepted)
> really think of Sunday as the sabbath described in the Genesis story?
British Christians do, no doubt with some hidden dissenters. Sunday is
the Sabbath in this country at the Protestant end of the Christian
scale especially, and at the northwestern end of the Protestant scale
especially.
The Scotsman reported on Hebridean Sabbath-breaking six months ago:
<http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Breakdown-of-Sabbath-ferry-is.
5471947.jp>
> That would be hard to reconcile with the gospels, which had Jesus
> crucified on Friday because it had to be finished before the sabbath
> and the women finding him missing on Sunday morning, after the sabbath
> was over.
>
That would be the Jewish sabbath, a different thing altogether.
Here's another straw in the British Christian Sabbath wind:
Monday's child is fair of face,
Tuesday's child is full of grace.
Wednesday's child is full of woe,
Thursday's child has far to go.
Friday's child is loving and giving,
Saturday's child works hard for his living.
But the child that is born on the Sabbath day
Is bonny and blithe, and good and gay.
The seventh day on which God rested was Sunday, of course. Why else
should Sunday be the day of rest?
Irony alert, for those that need it.
But now I too am curious. Given that no-one was counting the days
accurately from the creation, who is to say with any authority which
named day of the hebdomadal cycle should be nominated to commemorate
God's successful week's work?
--
franzi
Redshade
> Cheryl set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum:
>
>
> Heresy!!! Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day of the
> week. For Christians it's the most important day and is so designated in
> the Gospels, coming the day after Jewish Sabbath (the seventh day of the
> previous week).
>
> Monday only begins the week in the world of Mammon, where Sunday is
> relegated to the end of the week, frequently scrunched into the same square
> as Saturday.
>
> ξ:) Proud to be curly
>
> Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
I am a new poster to this site and have obviously missed a lot of
ongoing debates so please excuse my bringing up a point that may well
be an old chestnut.
The "Christian " calendar seems to be made up of days/months that are
named after non-christian/pagan objects of deification.
Please discuss. And I have no objection whatsoever to being pilloried
and poo-pooed.
Perhaps we could meet for lunch?
All the calendars/diaries/filofaxes (bit embarrassed about that latter
admission-but then aren't we all?) that I ever had always started with
Sunday.
Redshade (TFIC)
Ps.
TUT and PHOOEY if you don't know what "paradigm" means. It's that old
Amen Corner hit innit: "If Paradigm was half as nice as Heaven that
you sent me to/ who needs paradigm-I'd rather have you".
Mike Barnes
>Cheryl set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum:
>Heresy!!!
There's nothing wrong with a bit of heresy AFAICS.
>Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day of the
>week. For Christians it's the most important day
That has nothing to do with me. I'll stick with the practical system, if
you don't mind.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Jan 6, 10:51锟絧m, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>> "John Varela" <OLDla...@verizon.net> writes:
>> > On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:50:30 UTC, Bertel Lund Hansen
>> > <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>
>> >> Mike Barnes skrev:
>>
>> >> > I think that's the North American tradition. In the UK, the
>> >> > weeks starts on Monday and calendars generally reflect
>> >> > this. Of course there are exceptions, usually designed for
>> >> > other markets and thoughtlessly imported.
>>
>> >> Danish calenders start on Monday. That may be because somebody
>> >> takes "weekend" literally.
>>
>> > I've always assumed it has to do with differing opinion as to
>> > which is the seventh day, the Sabbath.
>>
>> So the North Americans go with the older Jewish sabbath and the
>> Europeans with the Christian one that replaced it?
>>
>> I'm curious, though, do Christians (Seventh-Day Adventists
>> excepted) really think of Sunday as the sabbath described in the
>> Genesis story?
>
> British Christians do, no doubt with some hidden dissenters. Sunday
> is the Sabbath in this country at the Protestant end of the
> Christian scale especially, and at the northwestern end of the
> Protestant scale especially.
I have no doubt that they consider it the sabbath. What I find harder
to believe is that they also consider it the "seventh day", since
their very own book calls it the "first day".
>> That would be hard to reconcile with the gospels, which had Jesus
>> crucified on Friday because it had to be finished before the sabbath
>> and the women finding him missing on Sunday morning, after the sabbath
>> was over.
>>
> That would be the Jewish sabbath, a different thing altogether.
Right, but that's the "seventh day" sabbath. I had thought that the
popular notion was that the "Christian sabbath" was thought of as a
new thing, commemorating Jesus, and *not* the "and on the seventh day
God rested" sabbath of the creation story.
> Here's another straw in the British Christian Sabbath wind:
>
> Monday's child is fair of face,
> Tuesday's child is full of grace.
> Wednesday's child is full of woe,
> Thursday's child has far to go.
> Friday's child is loving and giving,
> Saturday's child works hard for his living.
> But the child that is born on the Sabbath day
> Is bonny and blithe, and good and gay.
>
> The seventh day on which God rested was Sunday, of course. Why else
> should Sunday be the day of rest?
Spanish speakers also rest on Sunday, but their word for Saturday is
"s锟絙ado". Interestingly, the DRAE defines this as
Sexto d锟絘 de la semana, s锟絧timo de la semana lit锟絩gica.
Sixth day of the week, seventh of the liturgical week.
Their word for Sunday is "domingo", "the Lord's [day]"
> Irony alert, for those that need it.
>
> But now I too am curious. Given that no-one was counting the days
> accurately from the creation, who is to say with any authority which
> named day of the hebdomadal cycle should be nominated to commemorate
> God's successful week's work?
Why, God, of course. No manna on Saturday; a double portion on Friday
to tide you over. It's the kind of thing you notice, especially when
it appears right around the injunction to remember the sabbath.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |People think it must be fun to be a
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |super genius, but they don't
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |realize how hard it is to put up
|with all the idiots in the world.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572
tony cooper
My bank offers on-line bill paying. To get on-line, I have to enter
my seven digit account number. At least once a week, I access my
account on-line by entering these seven digits.
When I go to the bank to make a transaction, it's not uncommon for me
to not remember this number. There's something automatic about my
keystrokes that doesn't work when I have to write down the number.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<stephe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am a new poster to this site and have obviously missed a lot of
>ongoing debates so please excuse my bringing up a point that may well
>be an old chestnut.
>
>The "Christian " calendar seems to be made up of days/months that are
>named after non-christian/pagan objects of deification.
>
>Please discuss. And I have no objection whatsoever to being pilloried
>and poo-pooed.
>
The origins of names and the meanings of words do not necessarily have
any connection with their meanings today. History happens -- things
change.
Beware the Etymological fallacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy
The etymological fallacy holds, erroneously, that the original or
historical meaning of a word or phrase is necessarily similar to its
actual present-day meaning. This is a linguistic misconception,
based on a mistaken idea concerning the etymology of words.
Words, like buildings and other physical objects, can be "repurposed".
>Perhaps we could meet for lunch?
>
>All the calendars/diaries/filofaxes (bit embarrassed about that latter
>admission-but then aren't we all?) that I ever had always started with
>Sunday.
>
The wall calendars that I have start the week on Sunday.
My Filofax and Time/System personal organisers start the week on Monday.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Robert Bannister
> Nick Spalding wrote:
>> Cheryl wrote, in <7qjafn...@mid.individual.net>
>> on Wed, 06 Jan 2010 07:58:54 -0330:
>>
>>> Yes, I was confused above. Almost every calendar I have ever seen
>>> starts the week on a Sunday. I know others exist, because those
>>> versions are options sometimes when I use a template or some computer
>>> program to generate a calendar, but I've never used one.
>>>
>>> Conventions (like which day comes first)are only helpful so long as
>>> they are observed!
>>
>> The convention in the UK and Ireland is Monday first. Microsoft knows
>> this. With my normal regional settings for Ireland the Windows calendar
>> starts on Monday and the same if I set them to UK. If I change them to
>> USA it starts on Sunday.
>
> It must be the convention in New Zealand as well, since that's where the
> calendar comes from.
>
> I'm sure the ones from Australia I've had started on Sunday.
>
Last year I had both. (This year, I was only given one calendar, so I
had buy one - I think they're both Sunday starters, but there's no
reason to expect that).
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
That's because you're not looking at the Monday start ones. They're
definitely around.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Moreover, why did He start on the moon's day before He had even created
the moon?
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Mike Barnes wrote:
>> Jonathan Morton <jonathan.mortonb...@btinternet.com>:
>>> "Mike Barnes" <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote in message
>>> news:MPKFxPSN...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid...
>>>>> starts the week on a Sunday.
>>>> starts
>>>> on Monday and calendars generally reflect this. Of course there are
>>>> exceptions, usually designed for other markets and thoughtlessly
>>>> imported.
>>> that
>>> the middle of the working week is the middle of the calendar also.
>>
>> advantage. It's hardly an advantage over the start of the working week
>> insignificance compared with advantage of the calendar days being where
>> you expect them to be.
>>
> I wasn't thinking that it was an advantage to everyone to have Wednesday
> in the middle and Sunday on the left where it belongs. That's an
> advantage to me personally, because I expect to find Wednesday in the
> middle, and as I have discovered, don't actually read the word on the
> top of the column to see if it says 'Wednesday'. I can quite see that a
> calendar with my preferred arrangement would cause a disadvantage to
> someone used to both weekend days at one end, instead of one at each
> end; or days of the week at the side. I looked at that one, and decided
> it looked really odd to me.
For family planning of weekends, having Saturday and Sunday together is
pretty handy if you're one of those people who writes activities on the
calendar. Reading the calendar is a different matter, but it does help
if the weekend days are in a different colour from the workdays.
>
> It's mildly interesting to discover how much habit affects the use of
> one of the commonest time-telling objects, like a calendar, and how many
> versions there are that *don't* use the 'obvious' arrangement.
"Obvious" and "habit" are obviously only what you are used to, and once
you become exposed to other "obvious" methods, you will be surprised at
how quickly you become adept at reading various formats including days
going vertically instead of in the "proper" way.
Clocks,
> in spite of the 12/24 options and the digital/analogue issue don't seem
> to provide as varied options.
>
The main variation I find is that there an increasing number of watches
that I can't read even with my glasses on.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
I'm sure the many people here who play musical instruments, or at least
keyboard instruments, would be totally familiar with being only able to
remember tunes with the hands rather than the memory.
--
Rob Bannister
Yusuf B Gursey
> Cheryl wrote, in <7qjafnFka...@mid.individual.net>
> on Wed, 06 Jan 2010 07:58:54 -0330:
>
> > options sometimes when I use a template or some computer program to
> > generate a calendar, but I've never used one.
>
> > Conventions (like which day comes first)are only helpful so long as they
> > are observed!
>
> The convention in the UK and Ireland is Monday first. Microsoft knows
> this. With my normal regional settings for Ireland the Windows calendar
> starts on Monday and the same if I set them to UK. If I change them to
> USA it starts on Sunday.
the week starting on Sunday is older, Hebrew yom ri:*sh*on (from the
word "head", i.e. beginning), yawmu~l'aHad in arabic ("first day").
> --
> Nick Spalding
> BrE/IrE
Yusuf B Gursey
> franzi <et.in.arcadia.fra...@googlemail.com> writes:
that's what I know, unless it is another contamination of the Roman
Sun (Sol Invictus) cult in Christainity.
>
> > Here's another straw in the British Christian Sabbath wind:
>
> > Monday's child is fair of face,
> > Tuesday's child is full of grace.
> > Wednesday's child is full of woe,
> > Thursday's child has far to go.
> > Friday's child is loving and giving,
> > Saturday's child works hard for his living.
> > But the child that is born on the Sabbath day
> > Is bonny and blithe, and good and gay.
>
> > The seventh day on which God rested was Sunday, of course. Why else
> > should Sunday be the day of rest?
>
> Spanish speakers also rest on Sunday, but their word for Saturday is
> "s bado". Interestingly, the DRAE defines this as
>
> Sexto d a de la semana, s ptimo de la semana lit rgica.
Garrett Wollman
tony cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>My bank offers on-line bill paying. To get on-line, I have to enter
>my seven digit account number. At least once a week, I access my
>account on-line by entering these seven digits.
My bank ("Too Big To Fail, N.A.") requires the full sixteen-digit ATM
card number. It takes me about half a dozen uses before I find I have
the new number memorized (and probably a similar number of times after
that before I stop thinking that I need to check the card to be
certain).
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>British calendars start on Monday so that the weekend is at the end of
>the week. Our brains are too small to cope with anything more
>complicated than that.
When did they start doing that?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
annily
My brain is more attuned to text and numbers than images, so I prefer
digital clocks.
annily
Well, I don't actually look at calendars that much, but perhaps the
Monday start ones are a newer invention here in Australia. I still
suspect they'd be in the minority though.
R H Draney
ObTopology: but that doesn't change the number of ends....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Paul Schmitz-Josten
>> I knew that it is possible to get calendars that vary from Sunday to
>> Saturday across the top, but hadn't happened to use them.
[...]
>> This one, however, goes from Monday-Sunday,
>Heresy!!! Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day of the
>week. For Christians it's the most important day and is so designated in
>the Gospels, coming the day after Jewish Sabbath (the seventh day of the
>previous week).
Correct - if you accept wikipedia as a proof:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week-day_names#Weekdays_numbered_from_Sunday>
>Monday only begins the week in the world of Mammon, where Sunday is
>relegated to the end of the week, frequently scrunched into the same square
>as Saturday.
Correct again - it's the satanic UNO which decided on this in 1978 (the
Germans leading as a heresetic (sp?) spearhead in 1976), cemented by the
diabolic norm ISO-8601 in 1988:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week-day_names#Weekdays_numbered_from_Monday>
Ciao,
Paul
Bertel Lund Hansen
> >A piece of rope can be turned either way.
> ObTopology: but that doesn't change the number of ends....r
No, but it explains why you can't designate one of them as the
start.
Alas, the week can be 'turned around', which ruins my argument.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
> Moreover, why did He start on the moon's day before He had even created
> the moon?
I suppose he couldn't even start on the first day? Were numbers
invented? Had ordinal numbers evolved?
--
Bertel, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
> I'm sure the many people here who play musical instruments, or at least
> keyboard instruments, would be totally familiar with being only able to
> remember tunes with the hands rather than the memory.
I have experienced nothing of the sort. I have played since
childhood, first piano but ehn mostly guitar as an adult, and
lately keyboard. I cannot learn a tune that I would not be able
to sing - in fact I am able to sing unisone to my improvisations
on the guitar.
It would really surprise me if anyone could learn a tune without
it first entering his mind independent of his hands. And how
could one forget it afterwards?
--
Bertel, Denmark
Mike Barnes
>On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:17:13 +0000, Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com>
>wrote:
>
>>British calendars start on Monday so that the weekend is at the end of
>>the week. Our brains are too small to cope with anything more
>>complicated than that.
>
>When did they start doing that?
I've no idea. I don't remember things being any different.
Nick Spalding
on Thu, 07 Jan 2010 09:18:43 +0800:
Windows thinks it should be Monday.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Cheryl
> Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca>:
>> It's mildly interesting to discover how much habit affects the use of
>> one of the commonest time-telling objects, like a calendar, and how
>> many versions there are that *don't* use the 'obvious' arrangement.
>> don't seem to provide as varied options.
>
> http://www.eatnineghost.com/wp-content/uploads/unusual-watch/watch02.jpg
> http://www.funis2cool.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/unusual-citizen-watches-01.jpg
> http://www.designboom.com/contemporary/timepieces/06.jpg
> http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/eleeno_cyber_lcd_watch.jpg
> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7H17kbwrqqc/R0W125_mftI/AAAAAAAAAyI/5arutnaEafQ/s320/equilibrium-watch-250-projects-us.JPG
> http://c0378172.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/11403_70409100519.jpg
>
I am sincerely glad I didn't have to learn to tell time using some of those.
--
Cheryl
HVS
All of them are excellent examples of the triumph of form over
function.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Cheryl
> Jonathan Morton set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
> continuum:
>
>> described. I have just glanced at my watch and noticed that it's sort of
>> half-way between quarter-past and half-past something that's in the bottom
>> left-hand quadrant of the dial. So in split second, I know exactly what
>
> I have encountered an extreme example of knowing things by position rather
> than name/number. I could not remember a customer's phone number despite
> having called them many times over the past few days. It turned out what I
> had remembered was not the sequence of digits, but the sequence of finger
> movements required to dial it. Only by tapping the number out on an
> imaginary keyboard could I translate the number into actual digits for
> somebody else to key in on a mobile.
That happens to me a lot, too. I have to use a code on the office
photocopier, and I'm sure that when students ask to photocopy something
they think I am protecting our resources by refusing to trust them with
the Secret Code. In fact, I can't remember it unless I'm standing at the
machine typing it in.
And I have used it almost daily for over five years.
--
Cheryl
Cheryl
> "John Varela" <OLDl...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:50:30 UTC, Bertel Lund Hansen
>> <splittemi...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Barnes skrev:
>>>
>>>> I think that's the North American tradition. In the UK, the weeks
>>>> starts on Monday and calendars generally reflect this. Of course
>>>> there are exceptions, usually designed for other markets and
>>>> thoughtlessly imported.
>>> Danish calenders start on Monday. That may be because somebody
>>> takes "weekend" literally.
>>
>> I've always assumed it has to do with differing opinion as to which
>> is the seventh day, the Sabbath.
>
> So the North Americans go with the older Jewish sabbath and the
> Europeans with the Christian one that replaced it?
>
> I'm curious, though, do Christians (Seventh-Day Adventists excepted)
> really think of Sunday as the sabbath described in the Genesis story?
> crucified on Friday because it had to be finished before the sabbath
> and the women finding him missing on Sunday morning, after the sabbath
> was over.
>
No, at least I don't. Sunday is a celebration of the Resurrection, not a
continuation of the Jewish Sabbath.
Of course, in a movement spanning a couple thousand years and quite a
few cultures, you do get some differences of opinion, and as you point
out, the SDA would disagree with me. I think there's one or two other
small Christian groups that observe Saturday as the Sabbath, too.
Now I've been thinking about it a bit, I wonder if it has something to
do with Sunday being the first day of the week, while Monday is only the
first day of the work week? The idea of a week-end, whether at one end
or both, must surely be fairly recent historically.
--
Cheryl
Cheryl
>>> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:50:30 UTC, Bertel Lund Hansen
>>> <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>> Mike Barnes skrev:
>>>>> I think that's the North American tradition. In the UK, the weeks
>>>>> starts on Monday and calendars generally reflect this. Of course
>>>>> there are exceptions, usually designed for other markets and
>>>>> thoughtlessly imported.
>>>> Danish calenders start on Monday. That may be because somebody
>>>> takes "weekend" literally.
>>> I've always assumed it has to do with differing opinion as to which
>>> is the seventh day, the Sabbath.
>> So the North Americans go with the older Jewish sabbath and the
>> Europeans with the Christian one that replaced it?
>>
>> I'm curious, though, do Christians (Seventh-Day Adventists excepted)
>> really think of Sunday as the sabbath described in the Genesis story?
>
> the Sabbath in this country at the Protestant end of the Christian
> scale especially, and at the northwestern end of the Protestant scale
> especially.
>
> <http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Breakdown-of-Sabbath-ferry-is.
> 5471947.jp>
I've always thought of that use of 'Sabbath' as being merely a fancy
word for 'Sunday', not of a continuation of the Jewish idea of Sabbath.
But ideas vary.
>> That would be hard to reconcile with the gospels, which had Jesus
>> crucified on Friday because it had to be finished before the sabbath
>> and the women finding him missing on Sunday morning, after the sabbath
>> was over.
>>
> That would be the Jewish sabbath, a different thing altogether.
>
> Here's another straw in the British Christian Sabbath wind:
>
> Monday's child is fair of face,
> Tuesday's child is full of grace.
> Wednesday's child is full of woe,
> Thursday's child has far to go.
> Friday's child is loving and giving,
> Saturday's child works hard for his living.
> But the child that is born on the Sabbath day
> Is bonny and blithe, and good and gay.
>
> The seventh day on which God rested was Sunday, of course. Why else
> should Sunday be the day of rest?
>
> Irony alert, for those that need it.
>
> But now I too am curious. Given that no-one was counting the days
> accurately from the creation, who is to say with any authority which
> named day of the hebdomadal cycle should be nominated to commemorate
> God's successful week's work?
> --
> franzi
>
I don't think it was such a big issue in the past, before everyone had
calendars on their walls and thought that there was was something
unchangeable about their way of calculating dates. Someone picked a day
to commemorate the day of rest, and eventually everyone nearby found it
convenient to do the same thing on the same day. Later, people who
didn't know much about the situation took the choice as literal truth,
something like the date of Christmas.
I don't know why this is so hard for people. We pick convenient days to
commemorate everything from Labor to Secretaries.
--
Cheryl
James Hogg
I was surprised that the earliest example in the OED is as old as it is,
from 1638:
"The greatest weight of the said exaction will fall upon very poor
people..who making every week a coarse kersey and being compelled to
sell the same at the week end..are nevertheless constrained to yield one
half penny apiece."
Perhaps a good indication of the relative recency of the concept is that
the English word "weekend" has been borrowed into other languages, such
as French and Danish.
--
James
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I understood it to be the use of Sabbath to mean a day devoted to
worship rather than work.
Where I live, Northern Ireland, most protestant churches run Sunday
Schools, on Sundays. A few small and purist denominations run Sabbath
Schools, on the Sabbath (Sunday to the rest of us). They reject the use
of a day name that originated with Sun-worship.
>>> That would be hard to reconcile with the gospels, which had Jesus
>>> crucified on Friday because it had to be finished before the sabbath
>>> and the women finding him missing on Sunday morning, after the sabbath
>>> was over.
>>>
>> That would be the Jewish sabbath, a different thing altogether.
>>
There is a very long article here:
http://www.biblehistory.com/The%20Origin%20of%20Sunday%20Worship.html
It appears from what the writer says that Christians in the Roman sphere
of influence observed their Sabbath on Saturday. But on March 7, 321 the
emperor Constantine the Great issued a law:
"On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people
residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the
country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and
lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that
another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for
vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such
operations the bounty of heaven should be lost." This was the first
in a series of steps taken by Constantine and by later "Christian
emperors" in regulating Sunday observance. It is obvious that this
first Sunday law was not particularly Christian in orientation (note
the pagan designation "venerable Day of the Sun"); but very likely
Constantine, on political and social grounds, endeavored to merge
together heathen and Christian elements of his constituency by
focusing on a common practice. In A.D. 386, Theodosius I and Gratian
Valentinian extended Sunday restrictions so that litigation should
entirely cease on that day and there would be no public or private
payment of debt. Laws forbidding circus, theater, and horse racing
also followed and were reiterated as felt necessary.
The article goes on to describe how Christians adapted, over time, by
moving their sabbath observances from Saturday to Sunday.
The concept of the "Christian Sabbath" has been around for a very long
time even if the use the phrase is now limited.
Ilpo
> Mike Barnes <mikebar...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
> >I think she used that as an example without claiming any particular
> >advantage. It's hardly an advantage over the start of the working week
> >being at the start of the calendar week.
>
> Mittwoch ("mid-week"), or in Finland (keskiviikko, a calque of the
> German)?
Presumably the Finnish calendar week did start on Sunday in the past,
and hence the name for the day. I wasn't able to confirm that it is a
calque of the German - it may be, but it could be endogenous as well.
But the shift into Monday being the first day took place long enough
ago that I'm not sure if there are many still alive who even remember
a time when it was otherwise. For me the apparent illogicality has
never been an issue; I've always taken it to be the middle of a
workweek.
The biggest practical advantage for me in having the weekend days next
to each other is that you may be travelling somewhere for the weekend
or having visitors etc., and it's easier to read the calendar with the
weekend as one unit. The week splits quite naturally into two parts,
the workdays and the days off, and to me it makes sense to keep these
parts undivided.
Chuck Riggs
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
<snip>
>I'm curious, though, do Christians (Seventh-Day Adventists excepted)
>really think of Sunday as the sabbath described in the Genesis story?
Strict ones do, I believe, but even as an Episcopalian, a liberal
Christian sect, I was taught this.
>That would be hard to reconcile with the gospels, which had Jesus
>crucified on Friday because it had to be finished before the sabbath
>and the women finding him missing on Sunday morning, after the sabbath
>was over.
I think most Christians take the gospels for gospel without worrying
about the details.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs,
An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE
Chuck Riggs
Everyone knows that God's favourite language is Latin, not English.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Jonathan Morton skrev:
>>
>>> No, but the analogue clock is a good example of the phenomenon you
>>> described. I have just glanced at my watch and noticed that it's sort of
>>> half-way between quarter-past and half-past something that's in the bottom
>>> left-hand quadrant of the dial. So in split second, I know exactly what time
>>> it is.
>>
>> This is why I prefer an analog clock display. As a teacher I
>> needed to look at the clock and know immediately how many minutes
>> remained of the lesson.
>>
>
>My brain is more attuned to text and numbers than images, so I prefer
>digital clocks.
If they weren't so tacky I'd like them a lot more.
Chuck Riggs
<usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote:
>On 06/01/2010 20:33, Prai Jei wrote:
>
>> Heresy!!! Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day of the
>> week. For Christians it's the most important day and is so designated in
>> the Gospels, coming the day after Jewish Sabbath (the seventh day of the
>> previous week).
>
>That's probably illegal talk in Ireland these days.
Ah yes, that law. The content is bollocks, but even the length of the
Defamation Act 2009 should make it repealable, IMO. If you're not
easily bored, here it is:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2009/a3109.pdf
Mike Barnes
>I don't think it was such a big issue in the past, before everyone had
>calendars on their walls and thought that there was was something
>unchangeable about their way of calculating dates. Someone picked a day
>to commemorate the day of rest, and eventually everyone nearby found it
>convenient to do the same thing on the same day. Later, people who
>didn't know much about the situation took the choice as literal truth,
>something like the date of Christmas.
>
>I don't know why this is so hard for people. We pick convenient days to
>commemorate everything from Labor to Secretaries.
Quite so. Also different cultures settle on different days, and there's
nothing remarkable about that either.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Robert Bannister skrev:
>
>> I'm sure the many people here who play musical instruments, or at
>> least keyboard instruments, would be totally familiar with being
>> only able to remember tunes with the hands rather than the memory.
>
> I have experienced nothing of the sort. I have played since
> childhood, first piano but ehn mostly guitar as an adult, and
> lately keyboard. I cannot learn a tune that I would not be able
> to sing - in fact I am able to sing unisone to my improvisations
> on the guitar.
That's "in unison with". Assuming that you mean that you sing the
same thing (strictly speaking, in the same octave) as what you play on
the guitar.
> It would really surprise me if anyone could learn a tune without
> it first entering his mind independent of his hands.
I don't think anybody's claiming that.
> And how could one forget it afterwards?
Put me down in Rob's camp, but I suspect that he meant more by "tune".
It's not a matter of not remembering the melody line, but rather not
remembering the specific notes and chords that you play for the full
arrangement. When I played took piano as a kid, the result of my
practicing would be the ability to play the song without needing
music, but if I had to write down the song or even tell you what
chords I was playing (unless it was blues or something else very
regular) I would have to actually play it on a keyboard or at least
form the handshapes on the table in front of me. Thirty years later,
there are still a few (parts of) pieces (e.g., Joplins "Maple Leaf
Rag" and one of Haydn's sonatinas) that my hands remember how to play.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |This case--and I must be careful
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |not to fall into Spooner's trap
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |here--concerns a group of warring
|bankers.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 08:59:59 -0330, Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>
> I understood it to be the use of Sabbath to mean a day devoted to
> worship rather than work.
>
> Where I live, Northern Ireland, most protestant churches run Sunday
> Schools, on Sundays. A few small and purist denominations run
> Sabbath Schools, on the Sabbath (Sunday to the rest of us). They
> reject the use of a day name that originated with Sun-worship.
Interestingly, Jewish congregations I'm familiar with have their
religious schools on Sundays, as well, since it wouldn't be reasonable
to make the teachers work on the sabbath.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Voting in the House of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Representatives is done by means of a
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |little plastic card with a magnetic
|strip on the back--like a VISA card,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |but with no, that is, absolutely
(650)857-7572 |*no*, spending limit.
| P.J. O'Rourke
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Bertel Lund Hansen
> Put me down in Rob's camp, but I suspect that he meant more by "tune".
> It's not a matter of not remembering the melody line, but rather not
> remembering the specific notes and chords that you play for the full
> arrangement.
That I can understand.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 23:11:08 GMT, the Omrud
> <usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 06/01/2010 20:33, Prai Jei wrote:
>>
>>> Heresy!!! Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day of the
>>> week. For Christians it's the most important day and is so designated in
>>> the Gospels, coming the day after Jewish Sabbath (the seventh day of the
>>> previous week).
>>
>>That's probably illegal talk in Ireland these days.
>
> Ah yes, that law. The content is bollocks, but even the length of the
> Defamation Act 2009 should make it repealable, IMO. If you're not
> easily bored, here it is:
>
> http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2009/a3109.pdf
Well, that's all of "defamation", not merely blasphemy but mostly
libel and slander. "Publishing or uttering blasphemous matter" is
just sections 36 and 37 on pp. 26-7, reproduced below, and the bulk
(section 37) only has to do with seizing material upon conviction. I
note that to be actionable, there are two prongs that both need to be
met.
(2) For the purposes of this section, a person publishes or utters
blasphemous matter if--
(a) he or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly
abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any
religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number
of the adherents of that religion, and
(b) he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the
matter concerned, to cause such outrage.
So it has to *intentionally* cause outrage among a substantial number
of adherents to the religion. Merely having your words taken as
offensive, or even intending to piss off a specific person or small
group wouldn't seem to be covered.
Also,
(3) It shall be a defence to proceedings for an offence under this
section for the defendant to prove that a reasonable person would
find genuine literary, artistic, political, scientific, or
academic value in the matter to which the offence relates.
although I note that this doesn't include the American obscenity
notion of "the work *taken as a whole*".
The full sections:
36.--(1) A person who publishes or utters blasphemous matter
shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable upon conviction on
indictment to a fine not exceeding EUR25,000.
(2) For the purposes of this section, a person publishes or utters
blasphemous matter if--
(a) he or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly
abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any
religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number
of the adherents of that religion, and
(b) he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the
matter concerned, to cause such outrage.
(3) It shall be a defence to proceedings for an offence under this
section for the defendant to prove that a reasonable person would
find genuine literary, artistic, political, scientific, or
academic value in the matter to which the offence relates.
(4) In this section "religion" does not include an organisation or
cult--
(a) the principal object of which is the making of profit, or
(b) that employs oppressive psychological manipulation--
(i) of its followers, or
(ii) for the purpose of gaining new followers.
37.--(1) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section
36, the court may issue a warrant--
(a) authorising any member of the Garda S�och�na to enter (if
necessary by the use of reasonable force) at all reasonable
times any premises (including a dwelling) at which he or she
has reasonable grounds for believing that copies of the
statement to which the offence related are to be found, and to
search those premises and seize and remove all copies of the
statement found therein,
(b) directing the seizure and removal by any member of the
Garda S�och�na of all copies of the statement to which the
offence related that are in the possession of any person,
(c) specifying the manner in which copies so seized and
removed shall be detained and stored by the Garda S�'ocha' na.
(2) A member of the Garda S�och�na may--
(a) enter and search any premises,
(b) seize, remove and detain any copy of a statement to which
an offence under section 36 relates found therein or in the
possession of any person, in accordance with a warrant under
subsection (1).
(3) Upon final judgment being given in proceedings for an offence
under section 36, anything seized and removed under subsection (2)
shall be disposed of in accordance with such directions as the
court may give upon an application by a member of the Garda
S�och�na in that behalf.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If the human brain were so simple
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |That we could understand it,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |We would be so simple
|That we couldn't.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
I've got a BCD clock on my desk at work (a present from my
mother-in-law). I can read it right off, but it's amazing how many
people with computer science PhDs who stop by have trouble figuring it
out.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |And the wildest dreams of Kew
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | are the facts of Khatmandhu,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |And the crimes of Clapham
| chaste in Martaban.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |
(650)857-7572 | Rudyard Kipling
Prai Jei
continuum:
> Prai Jei <pvstownse...@ntlworld.com>:
>>Cheryl set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
>>continuum:
>>> This one, however, goes from Monday-Sunday,
>>Heresy!!!
>
> There's nothing wrong with a bit of heresy AFAICS.
>
>>Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day of the
>>week. For Christians it's the most important day
>
> That has nothing to do with me. I'll stick with the practical system, if
> you don't mind.
For the believing Christian practical systems must take second place to the
Truth.
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
James Hogg
> Mike Barnes set the following eddies spiralling through the
> space-time continuum:
>
>> Prai Jei <pvstownse...@ntlworld.com>:
>>> Cheryl set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
>>> continuum:
>>>> This one, however, goes from Monday-Sunday,
>>> Heresy!!!
>> There's nothing wrong with a bit of heresy AFAICS.
>>
>>> Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day of the
>>> week. For Christians it's the most important day
>> That has nothing to do with me. I'll stick with the practical
>> system, if you don't mind.
>
> For the believing Christian practical systems must take second place
> to the Truth.
This could lead to a discussion of when the day begins. It's rather
practical to have our modern convention which rules that a day begins at
midnight, but in the Bible it begins at sunset.
When do you start observing the Sabbath?
--
James
Prai Jei
continuum:
> I am a new poster to this site and have obviously missed a lot of
> ongoing debates so please excuse my bringing up a point that may well
> be an old chestnut.
Welcome, croeso, faílte, bienvenu, wilkommen, terve, etc.
> The "Christian " calendar seems to be made up of days/months that are
> named after non-christian/pagan objects of deification.
>
> Please discuss. And I have no objection whatsoever to being pilloried
> and poo-pooed.
As hinted elsewhere, the names have hung about long after they were of any
significance. Most Latin languages say "The Lord's Day" (Dimanche,
Domenico, etc.) for Sunday but dedicate the next day to the moon and the
rest to a selection of old Roman deities. German no longer names Wednesday
after a Wagner character but (along with Finnish) calls it "Midweek"
(Mittwoch, Keskiviikko). Portuguese is the only Latin language I'm aware of
that has totally chucked pagan names for the days of the week.
Welsh doesn't say "The Lord's Day" but sticks with "Sunday" (Dydd sul) then
follows Latin practice, so for a noted God-fearing nation we're as pagan as
E*****h with our day names. Ach-y-fi!
I'm one of the nice guys here (yes there are a few) so don't panic, you
won't get pilloried or pooh-poohed (or even tutted or phooied) by me.
> Perhaps we could meet for lunch?
Somehow I get the feeling that here we're seeing the female POV. Am I right?
(Date? Time? Place?)
> All the calendars/diaries/filofaxes (bit embarrassed about that latter
> admission-but then aren't we all?) that I ever had always started with
> Sunday.
Don't worry about remembering the Filofax, I've still got one somewhere.
> TUT and PHOOEY if you don't know what "paradigm" means. It's that old
> Amen Corner hit innit: "If Paradigm was half as nice as Heaven that
> you sent me to/ who needs paradigm-I'd rather have you".
I remember Amen Corner well (used to work at Bracknell, just down the road)
but somehow I didn't connect the song with paradigms. I was of course using
the word facetiously, all the while perfectly aware of its normal meaning.
Prai Jei
continuum:
> Chuck Riggs <chr...@eircom.net> writes:
> [ & mucel mo vpon þis wyse, ysnoppen ]
Er - um - sorry, where is the alleged defamation in what I wrote?
Prai Jei
continuum:
> Prai Jei <pvstownse...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
>> Cheryl set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
>> continuum:
>>
>>> I knew that it is possible to get calendars that vary from Sunday to
>>> Saturday across the top, but hadn't happened to use them.
>>
>> Some people are quibbling about "vary" here. No problem - it's like
>> the "For" statement in computer language like Basic and C:
>> For X = 1 To 10
>> means that X "varies" from 1 to 10 i.e. take each value in turn.
>
> And that's the sense she *didn't* mean, right?
>
>>> This one, however, goes from Monday-Sunday,
>
> It normally runs Sunday to Saturday, and this one "varies" by being
> different.
>
>> Heresy!!! Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day of the
>> week. For Christians it's the most important day and is so designated in
>> the Gospels, coming the day after Jewish Sabbath (the seventh day of the
>> previous week).
>
> I don't recall anywhere in the Gospels that it's called "the most
> important day". It's designated as "the first day of the week" (Matt
> 28:1, Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:19), presumably because that's the
> way it would likely have been designated in Aramaic by Jews (and is
> today in Hebrew (/jom riSon/)) due to it being the day after the
> Sabbath, which is the seventh day.
It became the most important day of the week because it was the day of the
week on which Christ rose from the dead.
James Hogg
>
> Er - um - sorry, where is the alleged defamation in what I wrote?
Probably the accusation of heresy. I don't remember who the alleged
heretic was. You might escape legal action in Ireland if the following
clause applies:
(4) There shall be no publication for the purposes of the tort of
defamation if the defamatory statement concerned is published to
the person to whom it relates and to a person other than the person
to whom it relates in circumstances where�
(a) it was not intended that the statement would be published
to the second-mentioned person, and
(b) it was not reasonably foreseeable that publication of the
statement to the first-mentioned person would result in
its being published to the second-mentioned person.
I hope that's sufficiently clear.
--
James
Prai Jei
continuum:
> (4) There shall be no publication for the purposes of the tort of
> defamation if the defamatory statement concerned is published to
> the person to whom it relates and to a person other than the person
> to whom it relates in circumstances where—
> (a) it was not intended that the statement would be published
> to the second-mentioned person, and
> (b) it was not reasonably foreseeable that publication of the
> statement to the first-mentioned person would result in
> its being published to the second-mentioned person.
>
> I hope that's sufficiently clear.
As mud.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> This could lead to a discussion of when the day begins. It's rather
> practical to have our modern convention which rules that a day begins at
> midnight, but in the Bible it begins at sunset.
>
> When do you start observing the Sabbath?
Jews start theirs at sundown on Friday night, and all holidays also
start at sundown "the night before". But in my experience even
observent Jews think of the two main services as taking place "Friday
evening" and "Saturday morning" in English.
Looking at schedules for TV in Israel, their broadcast days for a
given date seem to run from morning to night.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Pious Jews have a category of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |questions that can harmlessly be
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |allowed to go without an answer
|until the Messiah comes. I suspect
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |that this is one of them.
(650)857-7572 | Joseph C. Fineman
Garrett Wollman
James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>This could lead to a discussion of when the day begins. It's rather
>practical to have our modern convention which rules that a day begins at
>midnight, but in the Bible it begins at sunset.
In broadcasting it begins at 5 AM. (4 AM Central and Mountain.)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Skitt
> Prai Jei wrote:
>> I have encountered an extreme example of knowing things by position
>> rather than name/number. I could not remember a customer's phone
>> number despite having called them many times over the past few days.
>> It turned out what I had remembered was not the sequence of digits,
>> but the sequence of finger movements required to dial it. Only by
>> tapping the number out on an imaginary keyboard could I translate
>> the number into actual digits for somebody else to key in on a
>> mobile.
>
> That happens to me a lot, too. I have to use a code on the office
> photocopier, and I'm sure that when students ask to photocopy
> something they think I am protecting our resources by refusing to
> trust them with the Secret Code. In fact, I can't remember it unless
> I'm standing at the machine typing it in.
>
> And I have used it almost daily for over five years.
At my last place of employment I had to enter a numerical code to gain
access to my work building. All I remembered was the pattern of the buttons
to be pushed, not the numerical identities of them.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Evan Kirshenbaum
Oh, sure. But the claim was that
it's the most important day and is so designated in the Gospels
and that's what I didn't remember. I don't even recall it from the
epistles. I figured it happened sometime after the canonical books
were written.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |ActiveX is pretty harmless anyway.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |It can't affect you unless you
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |install Windows, and who would be
|foolish enough to do that?
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Peter Moylan
(650)857-7572
Skitt
> Everyone knows that God's favourite language is Latin, not English.
Well, he had to learn it, because the Catholics were going to use it in
their services.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>Cheryl wrote:
>> Prai Jei wrote:
>
>>> I have encountered an extreme example of knowing things by position
>>> rather than name/number. I could not remember a customer's phone
>>> number despite having called them many times over the past few days.
>>> It turned out what I had remembered was not the sequence of digits,
>>> but the sequence of finger movements required to dial it. Only by
>>> tapping the number out on an imaginary keyboard could I translate
>>> the number into actual digits for somebody else to key in on a
>>> mobile.
>>
>> That happens to me a lot, too. I have to use a code on the office
>> photocopier, and I'm sure that when students ask to photocopy
>> something they think I am protecting our resources by refusing to
>> trust them with the Secret Code. In fact, I can't remember it unless
>> I'm standing at the machine typing it in.
>>
>> And I have used it almost daily for over five years.
>
>At my last place of employment I had to enter a numerical code to gain
>access to my work building.
Ditto.
>All I remembered was the pattern of the buttons
>to be pushed, not the numerical identities of them.
I had to remember my personal numerical code. For security reasons the
digits associated with each key were allocated randomly on pressing a
start key and then displayed so as to be visible only through a narrow
angle. This made it impossible for someone nearby to see what number was
being keyed in.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
You don't know that! <smile>
Jesus was found to be absent from the tomb on that day. There were no
witnesses who saw him coming back to life and leaving the tomb.
He could have come back to life soon after being entombed.
Skitt
> Prai Jei wrote:
>> Evan Kirshenbaum set the following:
>>>> Heresy!!! Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day
>>>> of the week. For Christians it's the most important day and is so
>>>> designated in the Gospels, coming the day after Jewish Sabbath
>>>> (the seventh day of the previous week).
>>>
>>> I don't recall anywhere in the Gospels that it's called "the most
>>> important day". It's designated as "the first day of the week"
>>> (Matt 28:1, Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:19), presumably because
>>> that's the way it would likely have been designated in Aramaic by
>>> Jews (and is today in Hebrew (/jom riSon/)) due to it being the day
>>> after the Sabbath, which is the seventh day.
>>
>> It became the most important day of the week because it was the day
>> of the week on which Christ rose from the dead.
>
> You don't know that! <smile>
>
> Jesus was found to be absent from the tomb on that day. There were no
> witnesses who saw him coming back to life and leaving the tomb.
> He could have come back to life soon after being entombed.
Don't ask me why, but it made me think of a dingo ...
--
Skitt (AmE)
tony cooper
wrote:
>Cheryl wrote:
The "Time of Day" phone number in this area is 407 646 3131. Before
using the area code on all calls in this area, the number could be
dialed if you could remember to touch the opposites on a touch-tone
phone. It was also a pattern dialing situation.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>:
>>On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:17:13 +0000, Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>British calendars start on Monday so that the weekend is at the end of
>>>the week. Our brains are too small to cope with anything more
>>>complicated than that.
>>
>>When did they start doing that?
>
>I've no idea. I don't remember things being any different.
I first enountered the Monday start to diaries etc among the Dutch in the
1960s. In both Britian and South Africa they started with Sunday. Now it's
impossible to get one that starts with Sunday, but some computer versions let
you choose.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
James Silverton
Given my visual decrepitude I have to do that too for the lock box that
contains my emergency house keys.
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
annily
> On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 16:30:33 +1030, annily <ann...@annily.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> Jonathan Morton skrev:
>>>
>>>> No, but the analogue clock is a good example of the phenomenon you
>>>> described. I have just glanced at my watch and noticed that it's sort of
>>>> half-way between quarter-past and half-past something that's in the bottom
>>>> left-hand quadrant of the dial. So in split second, I know exactly what time
>>>> it is.
>>> This is why I prefer an analog clock display. As a teacher I
>>> needed to look at the clock and know immediately how many minutes
>>> remained of the lesson.
>>>
>> My brain is more attuned to text and numbers than images, so I prefer
>> digital clocks.
>
> If they weren't so tacky I'd like them a lot more.
Why do you consider them "tacky"? They look fine to me.
--
Long-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia,
which may or may not influence my opinions.
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister skrev:
>
>> Moreover, why did He start on the moon's day before He had even created
>> the moon?
>
> I suppose he couldn't even start on the first day? Were numbers
> invented? Had ordinal numbers evolved?
>
I'm beginning to think the whole thing was a bit like the moon landing -
a conspiracy faked in a Hollywood studio.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> franzi wrote:
>> On Jan 6, 10:51 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>>> "John Varela" <OLDla...@verizon.net> writes:
>>>> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 14:50:30 UTC, Bertel Lund Hansen
>>>> <splitteminebrams...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>>> Mike Barnes skrev:
>>>>>> I think that's the North American tradition. In the UK, the weeks
>>>>>> starts on Monday and calendars generally reflect this. Of course
>>>>>> there are exceptions, usually designed for other markets and
>>>>>> thoughtlessly imported.
>>>>> Danish calenders start on Monday. That may be because somebody
>>>>> takes "weekend" literally.
>>>> I've always assumed it has to do with differing opinion as to which
>>>> is the seventh day, the Sabbath.
>>> So the North Americans go with the older Jewish sabbath and the
>>> Europeans with the Christian one that replaced it?
>>>
>>> I'm curious, though, do Christians (Seventh-Day Adventists excepted)
>>> really think of Sunday as the sabbath described in the Genesis story?
>>
>> British Christians do, no doubt with some hidden dissenters. Sunday is
>> the Sabbath in this country at the Protestant end of the Christian
>> scale especially, and at the northwestern end of the Protestant scale
>> especially.
>>
>> The Scotsman reported on Hebridean Sabbath-breaking six months ago:
>> <http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Breakdown-of-Sabbath-ferry-is.
>> 5471947.jp>
>
> I've always thought of that use of 'Sabbath' as being merely a fancy
> word for 'Sunday', not of a continuation of the Jewish idea of Sabbath.
> But ideas vary.
>
>>> That would be hard to reconcile with the gospels, which had Jesus
>>> crucified on Friday because it had to be finished before the sabbath
>>> and the women finding him missing on Sunday morning, after the sabbath
>>> was over.
>>>
>> That would be the Jewish sabbath, a different thing altogether.
>>
>> Here's another straw in the British Christian Sabbath wind:
>>
>> Monday's child is fair of face,
>> Tuesday's child is full of grace.
>> Wednesday's child is full of woe,
>> Thursday's child has far to go.
>> Friday's child is loving and giving,
>> Saturday's child works hard for his living.
>> But the child that is born on the Sabbath day
>> Is bonny and blithe, and good and gay.
>>
>> The seventh day on which God rested was Sunday, of course. Why else
>> should Sunday be the day of rest?
>>
>> Irony alert, for those that need it.
>>
>> But now I too am curious. Given that no-one was counting the days
>> accurately from the creation, who is to say with any authority which
>> named day of the hebdomadal cycle should be nominated to commemorate
>> God's successful week's work?
>> --
>> franzi
>>
>
> I don't think it was such a big issue in the past, before everyone had
> calendars on their walls and thought that there was was something
> unchangeable about their way of calculating dates. Someone picked a day
> to commemorate the day of rest, and eventually everyone nearby found it
> convenient to do the same thing on the same day. Later, people who
> didn't know much about the situation took the choice as literal truth,
> something like the date of Christmas.
>
> I don't know why this is so hard for people. We pick convenient days to
> commemorate everything from Labor to Secretaries.
>
And then we make sure all the shops and restaurants are open, so that
only the chosen few get a rest.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Robert Bannister skrev:
>
>> keyboard instruments, would be totally familiar with being only able to
>> remember tunes with the hands rather than the memory.
>
> I have experienced nothing of the sort. I have played since
> childhood, first piano but ehn mostly guitar as an adult, and
> lately keyboard. I cannot learn a tune that I would not be able
> to sing - in fact I am able to sing unisone to my improvisations
> on the guitar.
>
> It would really surprise me if anyone could learn a tune without
> it first entering his mind independent of his hands. And how
> could one forget it afterwards?
>
I too find it difficult to learn a new tune if I can't sing/hum/whistle
it, but when it comes to remembering a tune previously learnt, my hands
are much better at than "I" am.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Prai Jei wrote:
>> space-time
>> continuum:
>>
>>> No, but the analogue clock is a good example of the phenomenon you
>>> described. I have just glanced at my watch and noticed that it's sort of
>>> half-way between quarter-past and half-past something that's in the
>>> bottom
>>> left-hand quadrant of the dial. So in split second, I know exactly what
>>
>> I have encountered an extreme example of knowing things by position
>> rather
>> than name/number. I could not remember a customer's phone number despite
>> having called them many times over the past few days. It turned out
>> what I
>> had remembered was not the sequence of digits, but the sequence of finger
>> movements required to dial it. Only by tapping the number out on an
>> imaginary keyboard could I translate the number into actual digits for
>> somebody else to key in on a mobile.
>
> That happens to me a lot, too. I have to use a code on the office
> photocopier, and I'm sure that when students ask to photocopy something
> they think I am protecting our resources by refusing to trust them with
> the Secret Code. In fact, I can't remember it unless I'm standing at the
> machine typing it in.
>
> And I have used it almost daily for over five years.
>
For much of my life - previously as a teacher, and now as a sufferer at
the gym - I wrote the date down at least once a day, and yet I had to
think really hard to remember what the date was. It must have been an
unconscious action: place a blackboard or workout chart in front of me,
and the brain switches to "write next date" function; ask me "What's the
date today?" and my brain goes into "Wha'?" mode.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Prai Jei <pvstownse...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
>> Evan Kirshenbaum set the following eddies spiralling through the
>> space-time continuum:
>>
>>> Prai Jei <pvstownse...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Heresy!!! Sunday is and should always be shown as, the first day
>>>> of the week. For Christians it's the most important day and is so
>>>> designated in the Gospels, coming the day after Jewish Sabbath
>>>> (the seventh day of the previous week).
>>> I don't recall anywhere in the Gospels that it's called "the most
>>> important day". It's designated as "the first day of the week"
>>> (Matt 28:1, Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:19), presumably because
>>> that's the way it would likely have been designated in Aramaic by
>>> Jews (and is today in Hebrew (/jom riSon/)) due to it being the day
>>> after the Sabbath, which is the seventh day.
>>
>> It became the most important day of the week because it was the day
>> of the week on which Christ rose from the dead.
>
> Oh, sure. But the claim was that
>
> it's the most important day and is so designated in the Gospels
>
> and that's what I didn't remember. I don't even recall it from the
> epistles. I figured it happened sometime after the canonical books
> were written.
>
Almost certainly at that dreadful meeting at Nokia - sorry, Nikea, when
they made up a whole pile of rules like the date of Christmas.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> The wall calendars that I have start the week on Sunday.
I misread that for "start a week on Sunday".
--
Rob Bannister
R H Draney
At least one of my guitar books suggested that musicians fall into three
different classes when "internalizing" a piece: there's the motor-tactile group
(yours, apparently), who remember the movements of the hands...then there's the
auditory group (like my old songwriting partner), who can play anything, new or
familiar, so long as they know how it's supposed to sound...and finally the
visual group (that's me!); we picture the printed score in our eidetic memory
and play from that....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Bertel Lund Hansen
> I first enountered the Monday start to diaries etc among the Dutch in the
> 1960s. In both Britian and South Africa they started with Sunday. Now it's
> impossible to get one that starts with Sunday, but some computer versions let
> you choose.
My Sony-Ericsson cell phone (a few years old) lets me choose to
start the calender with Sunday or Monday.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Steve Hayes
And so does Google calendar and similar kinds of calendar software.
My problem is with printed diaries.
Some of them do not print the date very clearly, and as I get older I can't
see as well. As others have mentioned there, one remembers numbers as a series
of fingerstrokes. So I don't go off to fetch my reading glasses to disarm the
burglar alarm. I just press the keys from knowing their positions.
So with diaries -- I note an appointment by the space on the page. And on a
few occasions I've turned up a day early, because the stupid diary publishers
began the week on Monday instead of Sunday.
I had the same problem when I used MS Outlook, where the days and dates are
hard to see. And though I had set it to begin the week with Sunday, it didn't
seem to work, and so I entered appointments in the wrong space. I stopped
using MS Outlook for that reason.