one fell swoop, or is it foul?
Robert Devereaux
: Personally, I would have used "one foul swoop" any day, and stupidly
: challenged my colleague on this. Every dictionary we consulted backed
: her up, with no mention of "one foul swoop", even though several other
: members of staff also seem to prefer "foul" to "fell".
: Is this an example of native speaker error? Popular etymology? Or
: are we WRONG?????
I've never heard of "one foul swoop." It's always been "one fell swoop,"
quite often consciously spoonerized & rendered "one swell foop." :^)
scharle
What would be the meaning of "one foul swoop"? One fell swoop
is (at least in my mind) the behavior of an eagle plummeting down
on a prey in a single deadly motion.
Or is that "one fowl swoop"?
--
Tom Scharle sch...@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu
G003 CC/MB, Notre Dame, IN 46556-0539 USA "standard disclaimer"
Truly Donovan
>An argument rages in our staff room. One of our middle management
>staff today posted a notice including the phrase "in one foul swoop".
>This was instantly corrected by another member of staff to "one *fell*
>swoop".
>Personally, I would have used "one foul swoop" any day, and stupidly
>challenged my colleague on this. Every dictionary we consulted backed
>her up, with no mention of "one foul swoop", even though several other
>members of staff also seem to prefer "foul" to "fell".
>Is this an example of native speaker error? Popular etymology? Or
>are we WRONG?????
>What does anyone else say?
Why do you suppose all those dictionary makers have included "one fell swoop"
*with an undisputed etymology* and not "one foul swoop"? My bet is that it is
because you are WRONG.
Of course, the expression in my family has been "one swell foop" for several
generations -- try and make a folk etymology out of that one!
Truly Donovan
Sian Baldwin
staff today posted a notice including the phrase "in one foul swoop".
This was instantly corrected by another member of staff to "one *fell*
swoop".
Personally, I would have used "one foul swoop" any day, and stupidly
challenged my colleague on this. Every dictionary we consulted backed
her up, with no mention of "one foul swoop", even though several other
members of staff also seem to prefer "foul" to "fell".
Is this an example of native speaker error? Popular etymology? Or
are we WRONG?????
What does anyone else say?
Sian Baldwin
Dick Durbin
: An argument rages in our staff room. One of our middle management
: staff today posted a notice including the phrase "in one foul swoop".
: This was instantly corrected by another member of staff to "one *fell*
: swoop".
The term "fell" in this case means deadly. The "swoop" refers to an
attack by a bird of prey. Thus, the expression refers to a deadly
attack.
--
Dick Durbin * "Who is out there to inspire us with a
Tallahassee, FL * personal example of virtue and self
* sacrifice in the name of a higher good?"
- CALVIN
Markus Laker
> Why do you suppose all those dictionary makers have included "one fell swoop"
> *with an undisputed etymology* and not "one foul swoop"? My bet is that it is
> because you are WRONG.
Agreed. COD9 defines this sense of 'fell' as 'fierce, ruthless; terible,
destructive'. However, 'one foul swoop' is common in the UK; it's only
recently that I learnt what the real saying is.
Markus.
Stephen T MacGregor
>What does anyone else say?
Although I sometimes hear "one foul swoop", I chalk it to to someone's
having misheard the phrase, but never having read it. I don't recall
having seen it in print, but I have seen "one fell swoop".
--
---------------------------------------------------------
Whom are you going to call? GRAMMAR BUSTERS!!!
---------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Pscheidt
>
>An argument rages in our staff room. One of our middle management
>staff today posted a notice including the phrase "in one foul swoop".
>This was instantly corrected by another member of staff to "one *fell*
>swoop".
>
>Personally, I would have used "one foul swoop" any day, and stupidly
>challenged my colleague on this. Every dictionary we consulted backed
>her up, with no mention of "one foul swoop", even though several other
>members of staff also seem to prefer "foul" to "fell".
>
>Is this an example of native speaker error? Popular etymology? Or
>are we WRONG?????
>
>What does anyone else say?
>
I have never heard "one foul swoop." I have always heard "one fell
swoop." Except of course my mother usually said "one swell foop" and I
have had trouble with that phrase to this day.
I am sure that the original phrase was "fell swoop" and that it has
been corrupted to "foul swoop" by people to whom this use of "fell" is
foreign.
Daan Sandee
|>
|>An argument rages in our staff room. One of our middle management
|>staff today posted a notice including the phrase "in one foul swoop".
|>This was instantly corrected by another member of staff to "one *fell*
|>swoop".
|>
|>Personally, I would have used "one foul swoop" any day, and stupidly
|>challenged my colleague on this. Every dictionary we consulted backed
|>her up, with no mention of "one foul swoop", even though several other
|>members of staff also seem to prefer "foul" to "fell".
|>
|>Is this an example of native speaker error? Popular etymology? Or
|>are we WRONG?????
It is a quotation from "Macbeth", a play by the late W. Shakespeare.
Macduff : "What! all my pretty chickens and their dam,
At one fell swoop ?"
(For the meaning of 'fell' (and 'dam') see any dictionary.)
Daan Sandee san...@think.com
Burlington, MA
Spy
Try telling Macduff all the family has been wiped out.
Macduff:
He has no children. All my pretty ones?
Did you say all? O hell-kite! All?
What, all my pretty chickens and their dam.
At one fell swoop?
Spy
Mark Baker
la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) writes:
> However, 'one foul swoop' is common in the UK;
Is it? I've never heard it.
scharle
dumpling -- "won fowl soup".
Linda Baty
>An argument rages in our staff room. One of our middle management
>staff today posted a notice including the phrase "in one foul swoop".
>This was instantly corrected by another member of staff to "one *fell*
>swoop".
>
>Personally, I would have used "one foul swoop" any day, and stupidly
>challenged my colleague on this. Every dictionary we consulted backed
>her up, with no mention of "one foul swoop", even though several other
>members of staff also seem to prefer "foul" to "fell".
>
>Is this an example of native speaker error? Popular etymology? Or
>are we WRONG?????
>
>
>
>
>
I've lived in twelve different states (I'm speaking of the United States,
not "hysteria," despair," etc.) and I've never heard "one foul swoop."
I've heard "one fell swoop" all over the country. But I think I've
actually heard "one swell foop" more often.
Linda Thrasher Baty
Henrik Soderstrom
<snip>
>Why do you suppose all those dictionary makers have included "one fell >swoop"
>*with an undisputed etymology* and not "one foul swoop"? My bet is that >it is
>because you are WRONG.
>Truly Donovan
Hmmm... But can an expression like "one foul swoop" really be faulted
just because it is similar, but not identical, to an existing idiomatic
expression with a well established "undisputed etymology".
You'll probably not find an expression like "one big house" in any
dictionary either, because it's a simple straightforward grammatical
construct and there's no need to mention it separately - imagine
the kind of dictionary we'd end up with if they were to include
every conceivable correct expression in the language ...
Would it not be of some interest to know the original intentions
of whoever wrote this: Did he intend (and fail) to use the established
expression ? Did he deliberately paraphrase it ? - or whatever else ?
HS
Bill Fisher
> An argument rages in our staff room. One of our middle management
> staff today posted a notice including the phrase "in one foul swoop".
> This was instantly corrected by another member of staff to "one *fell*
> swoop".
>
> Personally, I would have used "one foul swoop" any day, and stupidly
> challenged my colleague on this. Every dictionary we consulted backed
> her up, with no mention of "one foul swoop", even though several other
> members of staff also seem to prefer "foul" to "fell".
>
> Is this an example of native speaker error? Popular etymology? Or
> are we WRONG?????
>
> What does anyone else say?
>
>
> Sian Baldwin
>
>
others have pointed out. But I personally, while loving cliches in
general, never understood the semantic contribution made by "fell",
and I think it's neat to riff it differently. How about using
"one foul swoop" to show disapproval, "one fool swoop" to mean it
was a dumb thing to do, "one failed swoop" to mean it didn't work,
"one Fall swoop" if it happened in the Autumn, ... ?
- billf
Truly Donovan
><snip>
>>Why do you suppose all those dictionary makers have included "one fell >swoop"
>>*with an undisputed etymology* and not "one foul swoop"? My bet is that >it is
>>because you are WRONG.
><snip>
>>Truly Donovan
>
>Hmmm... But can an expression like "one foul swoop" really be faulted
>just because it is similar, but not identical, to an existing idiomatic
>expression with a well established "undisputed etymology".
Yes, if you can reasonably assume that the expression is really a mishearing
of the original which, if not created by Shakespeare, was used by him. And
how come it is always just one foul swoop, rather than a couple or three or
four? There's a reason for there only being one "fell" swoop.
>>You'll probably not find an expression like "one big house" in any
>dictionary either, because it's a simple straightforward grammatical
>construct and there's no need to mention it separately - imagine
>the kind of dictionary we'd end up with if they were to include
>every conceivable correct expression in the language ...
Well, if you really believe in your heart of hearts that the expression "one
foul swoop" grew up on its own and just coincidentally sounds an awful lot
like "one fell swoop" I suppose you could take it to this length.
Of course, no one has explained why it is "foul" and not "fowl," for that
matter. A swooping fowl is easier for me to imagine than a foul swoop.
>
>Would it not be of some interest to know the original intentions
>of whoever wrote this: Did he intend (and fail) to use the established
>expression ? Did he deliberately paraphrase it ? - or whatever else ?
>
He's dead. We'll never know. However, the scholars who have studied him seem
not to have thought it a misinterpretation of the original "one foul swoop."
Truly
Gavin J Dormand
>is (at least in my mind) the behavior of an eagle plummeting down
>on a prey in a single deadly motion.
>
> Or is that "one fowl swoop"?
"Fell" is also a word meaning "evil".
Peter Hoogenboom
: It is a quotation from "Macbeth", a play by the late W. Shakespeare.
: Macduff : "What! all my pretty chickens and their dam,
: At one fell swoop ?"
How do you know that we are all quoting Shakespeare? Maybe we're just
using a common phrase which he also used.
Peter
--
Peter Hoogenboom phoo...@wlu.edu
Department of Music, DuPont 208 hoogen...@fs.sciences.wlu.edu
Washington and Lee University phoog...@wesleyan.edu
Lexington, VA 24450 (540) 463-8697
Bob Cunningham
>Daan Sandee (san...@think.com) wrote:
>: It is a quotation from "Macbeth", a play by the late W. Shakespeare.
>: Macduff : "What! all my pretty chickens and their dam,
>: At one fell swoop ?"
>How do you know that we are all quoting Shakespeare? Maybe we're just
>using a common phrase which he also used.
If someone said it before he did, Bartlett's 16th Edition doesn't
tell us about it. Nor does Oxford Dictionary of Quotations 4th
Edition, although ODOQ says that a contemporary of Shakespeare's named
John Webster said "That she may take away all at one swoop".
The quotations books seem to do a pretty good job of tracking
down earlier uses. For example, several cross references are given
for "Moderation in all things".
---
BC | "[Fowler] was a 'prescriptive grammarian',
LA | and prescriptive grammar is not now in
| favour outside the schoolroom."
| -- Sir Ernest Gowers
| (In the preface to MEU2)
Michael B. Quinion
> How about using
> "one foul swoop" to show disapproval, "one fool swoop" to mean it
> was a dumb thing to do, "one failed swoop" to mean it didn't work,
> "one Fall swoop" if it happened in the Autumn, ... ?
.. one small swoop for mankind ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Quinion Thornbury, Bristol, UK
Michael Quinion Associates home page : <http://clever.net/mqa/>
World Wide Words : <http://clever.net/quinion/words/>
Robert Devereaux
: Agreed. COD9 defines this sense of 'fell' as 'fierce, ruthless; terible,
: destructive'. However, 'one foul swoop' is common in the UK; it's only
: recently that I learnt what the real saying is.
Yes.
Another use of "fell" just popped into my head. Quoting W. S. Gilbert
from the early G&S opera *The Sorcerer*:o
Some most extraordinary spell
O'er us has cast its magic fell; (i.e., its fell magic)
The consequence we need not tell.
We pity, pity you.
Dean
writes:
>In article <4ejc38$2...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, bob...@fc.hp.com (Robert Devereaux)
writes:
>|> Sian Baldwin (si...@kuwait.net) wrote:
>|> : Personally, I would have used "one foul swoop" any day, and stupidly
I've never heard anything but "fell". from middle English *fel* meaning
fierce, ruthless, terrible, or destructive.
Ceon Ramon
Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
>
>Of course, the expression in my family has been "one swell foop" for several
>generations -- try and make a folk etymology out of that one!
My family uses "swell foop," too. I've never heard "foul swoop," which
sounds like one of Lewis Carroll's creations -- "Beware the Foul Swoop,
especially while playing croquet with hedgehogs!"
--Barbara, off to make fowl soup for dinner
Mark Brader
> Of course, the expression in my family has been "one swell foop" for
> several generations -- try and make a folk etymology out of that one!
All right, I will. The foop is onomatopoeia, representing the sound
of one ocean swell slapping against an obstruction -- from which, as
it does so, many little items sitting loosely on that obstruction will
be swept away together in ___ _____ ____.
Next? :-)
--
Mark Brader "In a case like this, where the idiom is old and
m...@sq.com its wiring probably a mess, we tamper with nothing.
SoftQuad Inc. There is always the danger it will blow up in
Toronto your face." -- Matthew Hart
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Esther Vail
MB> Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com> wrote:
> Of course, the expression in my family has been "one swell
> foop" for several generations -- try and make a folk
> etymology out of that one!
MB> All right, I will. The foop is onomatopoeia, representing the
MB> sound of one ocean swell slapping against an obstruction --
MB> from which, as it does so, many little items sitting loosely
MB> on that obstruction will be swept away together in ___ _____
MB> ____.
MB> Next? :-)
In our family's vocabulary "foop" is the ersatz "whipped cream" that
comes in a can. "A swell foop," then, is a particularly generous
portion of the stuff on your jello.
Esther H. Vail, Rochester NY USA
(est...@rochgte.fidonet.org)
Bob Cunningham
>Bob Cunningham (exw...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: phoo...@liberty.uc.wlu.edu (Peter Hoogenboom) wrote:
>: >How do you know that we are all quoting Shakespeare? Maybe we're just
>: >using a common phrase which he also used.
>: If someone said it before he did, Bartlett's 16th Edition doesn't
>: tell us about it. Nor does Oxford Dictionary of Quotations 4th
>: Edition, although ODOQ says that a contemporary of Shakespeare's named
>: John Webster said "That she may take away all at one swoop".
>You miss an important point: Your first sentence should read "If someone
>wrote it before he did..."
You may be right, although it seems to me when I quote Bartlett's
it should be clear I'm speaking about something that was said in
writing, rather than something that was literally spoken. While I
know that expressions like "the book says", "the road sign says", or
"it says in the Bible" are all good idiomatic English, I suppose there
are times when it's important to make clear the distinction.
>It's possible that Shakespeare was the first to write down (in a place we
>know about) an expression that was common in speech.
That sounds right to me.
William C Waterhouse
writes:
> phoo...@liberty.uc.wlu.edu (Peter Hoogenboom) wrote:
> ....
> > >It's possible that Shakespeare was the first to write down (in a place we
> >know about) an expression that was common in speech.
>
> That sounds right to me.
Anything is possible, of course, but it should be mentioned that
the phrase "one fell swoop" in Macbeth gives every impression of
having been invented precisely to fit its context there.
Specifically, in IV.iii MacDuff has just been told that Macbeth has
had MacDuff's wife and children murdered. Part of his reaction is
...."Oh hell-kite! All?
What, all my pretty chickens, and their dam,
At one fell swoop?"
The metaphor of a bird of prey starts with "kite" and continues
with "chickens," before ending with "swoop"; and "fell" is more
suitable in a metaphor for murder than it would be in a
description of swoops in general.
William C. Waterhouse
Penn State
Dan Lehman
traditional expresssion) is indicated by humorist Roy Blount's book
entitled "One Fell Soup".
---Dan
------- *