Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
OT: Pope Francis suggest atheists may be redeemed
6 views
Skip to first unread message
Berkeley Brett
May 25, 2013, 8:16:36 AM5/25/13
to
I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
I share the following simply because it is rare for a sitting Pope to make controversial statements in a non-dogmatic direction.
For what it's worth, I am neither Roman Catholic nor atheist (my spiritual beliefs are a bit hard to summarize, but they are in the "neighborhood" of Buddhism, Quakerism, Unitarianism, etc....)
So here, for your consideration, is....
http://is.gd/UQbBqB
=== begin quoted text ===
Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics
Posted: 05/22/2013 2:25 pm EDT
Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.
During his homily at Wednesday Mass in Rome, Francis emphasized the importance of "doing good" as a principle that unites all humanity, and a "culture of encounter" to support peace.
Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, Francis explained how upset Jesus' disciples were that someone outside their group was doing good, according to a report from Vatican Radio.
“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”
Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:
"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
Responding to the leader of the Roman Catholic church's homily, Father James Martin, S.J. wrote in an email to The Huffington Post
"Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That's always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a "ransom for all." But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it's a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories.
Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don't believe will be redeemed, and the Pope's words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.
The pope's comment has also struck a chord on Reddit, where it is the second most-shared piece.
More from Reuters
Atheists should be seen as good people if they do good, Pope Francis said on Wednesday in his latest urging that people of all religions - or no religion - work together.
The leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made his comments in the homily of his morning Mass in his residence, a daily event where he speaks without prepared comments.
He told the story of a Catholic who asked a priest if even atheists had been redeemed by Jesus.
"Even them, everyone," the pope answered, according to Vatican Radio. "We all have the duty to do good," he said.
"Just do good and we'll find a meeting point," the pope said in a hypothetical conversation in which someone told a priest: "But I don't believe. I'm an atheist."
Francis's reaching out to atheists and people who belong to no religion is a marked contrast to the attitude of former Pope Benedict, who sometimes left non-Catholics feeling that he saw them as second-class believers.
=== end quoted text ===
For myself, I see this as a move toward greater tolerance, and therefore I am happy to read it.
Of course, there have long been broad-minded traditions within the Catholic church. One prominent Catholic theologian who was admired by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) held out the possibility of universal salvation for all people (Father Hans Urs von Balthasar -- elevated to Cardinal, but died before he was installed):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Urs_von_Balthasar
Well, may peace and good will be with you all....
--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.ForeverFunds.org/
My plan for saving the world!
(Micro-trusts & Micro-Endowments that survive you)
I share the following simply because it is rare for a sitting Pope to make controversial statements in a non-dogmatic direction.
For what it's worth, I am neither Roman Catholic nor atheist (my spiritual beliefs are a bit hard to summarize, but they are in the "neighborhood" of Buddhism, Quakerism, Unitarianism, etc....)
So here, for your consideration, is....
http://is.gd/UQbBqB
=== begin quoted text ===
Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics
Posted: 05/22/2013 2:25 pm EDT
Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.
During his homily at Wednesday Mass in Rome, Francis emphasized the importance of "doing good" as a principle that unites all humanity, and a "culture of encounter" to support peace.
Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, Francis explained how upset Jesus' disciples were that someone outside their group was doing good, according to a report from Vatican Radio.
“They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”
Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:
"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
Responding to the leader of the Roman Catholic church's homily, Father James Martin, S.J. wrote in an email to The Huffington Post
"Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That's always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a "ransom for all." But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it's a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories.
Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don't believe will be redeemed, and the Pope's words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.
The pope's comment has also struck a chord on Reddit, where it is the second most-shared piece.
More from Reuters
Atheists should be seen as good people if they do good, Pope Francis said on Wednesday in his latest urging that people of all religions - or no religion - work together.
The leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made his comments in the homily of his morning Mass in his residence, a daily event where he speaks without prepared comments.
He told the story of a Catholic who asked a priest if even atheists had been redeemed by Jesus.
"Even them, everyone," the pope answered, according to Vatican Radio. "We all have the duty to do good," he said.
"Just do good and we'll find a meeting point," the pope said in a hypothetical conversation in which someone told a priest: "But I don't believe. I'm an atheist."
Francis's reaching out to atheists and people who belong to no religion is a marked contrast to the attitude of former Pope Benedict, who sometimes left non-Catholics feeling that he saw them as second-class believers.
=== end quoted text ===
For myself, I see this as a move toward greater tolerance, and therefore I am happy to read it.
Of course, there have long been broad-minded traditions within the Catholic church. One prominent Catholic theologian who was admired by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) held out the possibility of universal salvation for all people (Father Hans Urs von Balthasar -- elevated to Cardinal, but died before he was installed):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Urs_von_Balthasar
Well, may peace and good will be with you all....
--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.ForeverFunds.org/
My plan for saving the world!
(Micro-trusts & Micro-Endowments that survive you)
Berkeley Brett
May 25, 2013, 8:29:45 AM5/25/13
to
Incidentally, this sublime piece from Handel's Messiah is based on a passage in the New Testament that seems to reflect a similar idea to that presented by Pope Francis.
On YouTube:
"Since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead; For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (I Corinthians 15:21,22):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cWWJMuqbSE
--
Brett
On YouTube:
"Since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead; For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (I Corinthians 15:21,22):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cWWJMuqbSE
--
Brett
Cheryl
May 25, 2013, 8:44:32 AM5/25/13
to
although of course like may other ideas that some Christians have
suggested, you'll find others who oppose it.
--
Cheryl
Berkeley Brett
May 25, 2013, 9:00:25 AM5/25/13
to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Universalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocatastasis
Best wishes....
--
Brett
Don Phillipson
May 25, 2013, 12:01:52 PM5/25/13
to
"Berkeley Brett" <roya...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:53b3b9cd-b58b-4ed9...@googlegroups.com...
> . . . it is rare for a sitting Pope to make controversial statements in a
> non-dogmatic direction.
Is this really true? History suggests there is no such thing as a "sitting
Pope." All those historical figures were either (a) Pope or (b) dead. (Not
one (in 500+ years before Benedict) retired from office while living. Like
all
leaders we know, popes' attitudes towards controversy vary. Most seek
to avoid controversy, a few occasionally seek to provoke discussion or
reform.
What popes say has no dogmatic or non-dogmatic "direction:" this
"direction" has no status in theology. Official doctrine since 1870
is that papal statements _ex cathedra_ are infallible on questions
of morals or dogma (faith) only. This doctrine is complex and difficult,
so
far as some of the dogma concerns historical events in time (e.g. 1950
dogma of the bodily assumption into heaven of the BVM, mother of Christ):
some matters of dogmatic faith allege miracles happened materially in time.
Catholics are familiar with several discrepancies persisting after the 1870
official doctrine. A familiar discrepancy concerns the status in the
afterlife
of virtuous people who died before Christ was born. The doctrine of "Nulla
salus extra ecclesiam" entails that Moses, Socrates, Confucious etc. cannot
be in heaven because they were never Christians. Liberal Catholics
have since before Dante sought some way around this.
The big change in living memory is that not nearly so many people
now take any pope so seriously as in 1950. The big continuity is
that some serious Catholics believe controversy is good because
it makes people think while other serious Catholics believe it is
a harmful sin.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:53b3b9cd-b58b-4ed9...@googlegroups.com...
> . . . it is rare for a sitting Pope to make controversial statements in a
> non-dogmatic direction.
Is this really true? History suggests there is no such thing as a "sitting
Pope." All those historical figures were either (a) Pope or (b) dead. (Not
one (in 500+ years before Benedict) retired from office while living. Like
all
leaders we know, popes' attitudes towards controversy vary. Most seek
to avoid controversy, a few occasionally seek to provoke discussion or
reform.
What popes say has no dogmatic or non-dogmatic "direction:" this
"direction" has no status in theology. Official doctrine since 1870
is that papal statements _ex cathedra_ are infallible on questions
of morals or dogma (faith) only. This doctrine is complex and difficult,
so
far as some of the dogma concerns historical events in time (e.g. 1950
dogma of the bodily assumption into heaven of the BVM, mother of Christ):
some matters of dogmatic faith allege miracles happened materially in time.
Catholics are familiar with several discrepancies persisting after the 1870
official doctrine. A familiar discrepancy concerns the status in the
afterlife
of virtuous people who died before Christ was born. The doctrine of "Nulla
salus extra ecclesiam" entails that Moses, Socrates, Confucious etc. cannot
be in heaven because they were never Christians. Liberal Catholics
have since before Dante sought some way around this.
The big change in living memory is that not nearly so many people
now take any pope so seriously as in 1950. The big continuity is
that some serious Catholics believe controversy is good because
it makes people think while other serious Catholics believe it is
a harmful sin.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
May 31, 2013, 1:38:57 AM5/31/13
to
Berkeley "Little Miss Sunshine" Brett keeps writing:
>
> "As always, your feedback is most welcome...."
and
> "Thank you in advance for anything you might care to share."
>
O.K., Sunny, since you keep on asking us for our feedback and thanking
us for sharing our thoughts:
Knock off your goddamn obnoxious goody-goody, ingratiating, saccharine introduction
>
> "I hope you're all well & in good spirits."
>
as well as your two above-cited cloying phrases.
Lemme *share* something else: Whenever you use any of your three pukey
sentences, may you suffer from severe anal leakage!
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
>
> "As always, your feedback is most welcome...."
and
> "Thank you in advance for anything you might care to share."
>
O.K., Sunny, since you keep on asking us for our feedback and thanking
us for sharing our thoughts:
Knock off your goddamn obnoxious goody-goody, ingratiating, saccharine introduction
>
> "I hope you're all well & in good spirits."
>
as well as your two above-cited cloying phrases.
Lemme *share* something else: Whenever you use any of your three pukey
sentences, may you suffer from severe anal leakage!
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
May 31, 2013, 1:39:10 AM5/31/13
to
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
May 31, 2013, 1:39:27 AM5/31/13
to
0 new messages