Near East or Middle East?

[Hibou]

"Middle East essentially supplanted Near East in the early 20th century,
although the two are now used interchangeably among English speakers.
So, for all intents and purposes, Middle East and Near East refer to the
same region when used today" -
<https://www.britannica.com/story/are-the-middle-east-and-the-near-east-the-same-thing>

So that's us oriented then.

[Dingbat]

Older terms:
The Orient Express terminated in Istanbul, but parts of Asia abutting the Mediterranean
Sea were Asia Minor and the Orient on one dated map I've seen. I haven't seen
the legend Levant on a map. To what extent was there overlap between areas
covered by these terms?

[Peter Moylan]

I listened to the USA ABC News today, and there was no mention of the
Middle East. There was instead news of "War in the Holy Land". (But
crusaders were not mentioned.)

Does that news broadcast emanate from the Bible Belt?

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

My Concise Oxford Atlas (dated around 1955, but I don't have it in
front of me at this moment) defined "near east" as the Levant, "middle
east" as India etc., and "far east" as China and Japan. I think that
even then this was totally outdated.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

[occam]

Yes, from the land of the dumb and dumber.

For an alternative source of (more balanced) news of Middle East, may I
recommend Al Jazeera news site. You'll get coverage from the other
perspective also:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/

[Madhu]

* Dingbat <31d3a7c0-6e1f-44e3...@googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 01:57:00 -0700 (PDT):

> On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 1:43:40 PM UTC+5:30, Hibou wrote:
>> "Middle East essentially supplanted Near East in the early 20th century,
>> although the two are now used interchangeably among English speakers.
>> So, for all intents and purposes, Middle East and Near East refer to the
>> same region when used today" -
>> <https://www.britannica.com/story/are-the-middle-east-and-the-near-east-the-same-thing>
>>
>> So that's us oriented then.

no doubt to balance the by-then significant mid-west.

> Older terms:
> The Orient Express terminated in Istanbul, but parts of Asia abutting
> the Mediterranean
> Sea were Asia Minor and the Orient on one dated map I've seen. I haven't seen
> the legend Levant on a map. To what extent was there overlap between areas
> covered by these terms?

The 60s "rd great world atlas" i have has a 2 page spread for THE MIDDLE
EAST (turkey, iraq, iran, afghanistan, saudi arabia, shows the kutch and
the thar on the border), and the next page is THE LEVANT (syria,
lebanon, israel, jordan)

[J. J. Lodder]

Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

How about this one?
<https://cdn.britannica.com/46/241346-050-B984E7C5/Locator-map-Levant.jpg>

This one has the present day national boundaries,
but you can also find maps in which it is somewhat larger,
and with a more diffuse boundary.
So 'the Levant' should not be used as a synonym for 'the Middle East',

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

On 25/10/23 21:11, occam wrote:
> On 25/10/2023 12:04, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 25/10/23 19:13, Hibou wrote:
>>
>>> "Middle East essentially supplanted Near East in the early 20th
>>> century, although the two are now used interchangeably among
>>> English speakers. So, for all intents and purposes, Middle East
>>> and Near East refer to the same region when used today" -
>>> <https://www.britannica.com/story/are-the-middle-east-and-the-near-east-the-same-thing>

>>>
>>>
So that's us oriented then.

>> I listened to the USA ABC News today, and there was no mention of
>> the Middle East. There was instead news of "War in the Holy Land".
>> (But crusaders were not mentioned.)
>>
>> Does that news broadcast emanate from the Bible Belt?

> Yes, from the land of the dumb and dumber.

Thanks. It did occur to me that I could have looked it up myself, but
the only address I could find for ABC News was in New York, NY. The
"Holy Land" label struck me as something a New Yorker would be unlikely
to say, though.

> For an alternative source of (more balanced) news of Middle East,
> may I recommend Al Jazeera news site. You'll get coverage from the
> other perspective also:
>
> https://www.aljazeera.com/news/

Al Jazeera leapt to prominence in Australia during the "weapons of mass
debating" Gulf War. At the time the US military came up with the concept
of "embedded reporters", which meant that all the news from the usual
sources was censored. Australian news media discovered that the only
good way to get uncensored reports was to get them from Al Jazeera. From
that time onwards, our news programs have often included Al Jazeera
content. The network is recognised as one of the best in the world for
accurate reporting.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2023-10-25 11:01:41 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 25/10/23 21:11, occam wrote:
>> On 25/10/2023 12:04, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 25/10/23 19:13, Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Middle East essentially supplanted Near East in the early 20th
>>>> century, although the two are now used interchangeably among
>>>> English speakers. So, for all intents and purposes, Middle East
>>>> and Near East refer to the same region when used today" -
>>>> <https://www.britannica.com/story/are-the-middle-east-and-the-near-east-the-same-thing>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>>>>
> So that's us oriented then.
>
>>> I listened to the USA ABC News today, and there was no mention of
>>> the Middle East. There was instead news of "War in the Holy Land".
>>> (But crusaders were not mentioned.)
>>>
>>> Does that news broadcast emanate from the Bible Belt?
>
>> Yes, from the land of the dumb and dumber.
>
> Thanks. It did occur to me that I could have looked it up myself, but
> the only address I could find for ABC News was in New York, NY. The
> "Holy Land" label struck me as something a New Yorker would be unlikely
> to say, though.

When I went to Israel as a student in 1963, my grandmother (born 1875)
referred to it as the Holy Land. I don't think anyone else did.

>
>> For an alternative source of (more balanced) news of Middle East,
>> may I recommend Al Jazeera news site. You'll get coverage from the
>> other perspective also:
>>
>> https://www.aljazeera.com/news/
>
> Al Jazeera leapt to prominence in Australia during the "weapons of mass
> debating" Gulf War. At the time the US military came up with the concept
> of "embedded reporters", which meant that all the news from the usual
> sources was censored. Australian news media discovered that the only
> good way to get uncensored reports was to get them from Al Jazeera. From
> that time onwards, our news programs have often included Al Jazeera
> content. The network is recognised as one of the best in the world for
> accurate reporting.


--

[Peter T. Daniels]

That's quite wrong.

The Near East refers to ancient times, the Middle East to modern times.
The same area, different scholars.

Apparently some Brits have tried using "Near East" for the western
(mostly Semitic-speaking) area and "Middle East" for Iran/Afghanistan
(mainly Iranian-speaking). It didn't catch on.

> So that's us oriented then.

If I were a big donor, I would have rescinded my donations to the
Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago because this year it
changed its name to "Institute for the Study of Ancient Cultures."

[Peter T. Daniels]

Really? A _newscast_ from the American Broadcasting Company,
one of the Big Four networks? "The Holy Land" is the term favored
by evangelicals and (perhaps formerly) Roman Catholics, so I might
expect it from FoxNews.

The ABC local stations (WABC in NYC, WLS is Chicago) are hard-
right -- the home of Rush Limbaugh for decades, for instance, and
Dr. Laura (don't ask); Curtis Sliwa in NY -- so maybe you somehow
got a local news or talk show from an ABC station?

[Peter T. Daniels]

"Levant" conveniently combines the Arabic name for the mountain
ridge that gives its name to Lebanon and the French for 'rising (sun)'
(from of course the European perspective). It's a conveniently non-
political term for Syria-Palestine.

[Dingbat]

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 8:14:44 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 4:13:40 AM UTC-4, Hibou wrote:
>
> > "Middle East essentially supplanted Near East in the early 20th century,
> > although the two are now used interchangeably among English speakers.
> > So, for all intents and purposes, Middle East and Near East refer to the
> > same region when used today" -
> > <https://www.britannica.com/story/are-the-middle-east-and-the-near-east-the-same-thing>
> That's quite wrong.
>
> The Near East refers to ancient times, the Middle East to modern times.
> The same area, different scholars.
>
> Apparently some Brits have tried using "Near East" for the western
> (mostly Semitic-speaking) area and "Middle East" for Iran/Afghanistan
> (mainly Iranian-speaking). It didn't catch on.
>

There's also a prefix Meso, as in MesoAmerica. MesoAsia should be
comprehensible but is not used.

>
> > So that's us oriented then.
> If I were a big donor, I would have rescinded my donations to the
> Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago because this year it
> changed its name to "Institute for the Study of Ancient Cultures."
>

Which scholars were called Orientalists immediately before Edward Said
redefined the term to mean those who are condescending to Asians?
Are any called that now?

[lar3ryca]

Probably by occident.

--
Q: What happens to a politician when he takes Viagra?
A: He gets taller.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Said, a rightwing Christian (IIRC) ex-Palestinian born in Egypt (at Columbia),
was supremely ignorant of the field. As the Englishman Bernard Lewis, the
US's leading Islamist (at Princeton), pointed out, Said did not read German,
so the vast majority of Oriental Studies was closed to him.

The answer to your question is, basically all of us. The American Oriental
Society (founded 1842) has five sections: Ancient Near East, South Asia,
East Asia, Inner Asia, and Islamic Civilization.

The Oriental Institute (founded 1919, with John D. Rockefeller Jr.'s
money) originally included Chinese (and maybe Indian?) studies,
but the University of Chicago soon set up separate departments
for those areas, so by the time the building was built in 1931,
it housed just Assyriology, Egyptology, and Semitics. (Bible study
and theology were separated from Semitic studies from the beginning
in 1892 and housed in the Divinity School [which was descended from
the Baptist Seminary], because William Rainey Harper, distinguished
Hebraist and biblical scholar, who was the University's first president,
would not have his Languages/Philology department under the control
of the divines in the seminary.)

You can read my two historical articles here

https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/ar/71-80/78-79/78-79_Chicago_Oriental_Studies.pdf

and here

https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/rockefeller_centenary.pdf

(they didn't do a ToC; the essay is on pp. 6-17. The byline is on p. 24.)

[Sam Plusnet]

On 25-Oct-23 11:11, occam wrote:

> For an alternative source of (more balanced) news of Middle East, may I
> recommend Al Jazeera news site. You'll get coverage from the other
> perspective also:
>
> https://www.aljazeera.com/news/

Up to a point.
It is owned by the Qatari government.
That government has said that 'the network is politically and
editorially independent', however that independence is "relative and
conditional.
I doubt if it will be criticising Qatar anytime soon.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Peter Moylan]

The program is called "ABC World News Tonight with David Muir". Our SBS
TV network, whose major focus is foreign-language programs, rebroadcasts
the news programs from a number of other countries. It gets its USA news
from ABC and PBS.

I like to watch the news while eating my lunch. Usually that means the
Australian ABC, which of course has no connection with the US ABC.
Sometimes, though, that time slot is preempted by something boring like
Parliament Question Time, so then I watch the foreign news. Sometimes
PBS, so that I can follow the trials of *onald *rump, and sometimes BBC,
which has a broader view of the world. If all else fails then it's "ABC
World News", which seems to be unaware that most of the world exists.

[Peter T. Daniels]

(I thought it was radio because you said "listened.")

That is indeed the network nightly news half-hour. I don't watch it,
but I'm astounded that they used the term, unless it was prompted
by something in the context. Such as, "A group of American tourists
making a pilgrimage to the Holy Land ...."

The last time I was in Haifa, and we went to the church atop Mt. Carmel
(where Elijah heard the "still, small voice"), there were tour groups from
both US and Australian evangelical churches, and the guides were
pointing out the direction that the voice came from.

The church has lovely little terra cotta plaques for the Stations of the
Cross, but the gift shop doesn't offer post cards or a brochure of them.

> I like to watch the news while eating my lunch. Usually that means the
> Australian ABC, which of course has no connection with the US ABC.
> Sometimes, though, that time slot is preempted by something boring like
> Parliament Question Time, so then I watch the foreign news. Sometimes
> PBS, so that I can follow the trials of *onald *rump, and sometimes BBC,
> which has a broader view of the world. If all else fails then it's "ABC
> World News", which seems to be unaware that most of the world exists.

Mr. Muir is one of those peripatetic news anchors. Has he been in Tel
Aviv the last few weeks?

[Dingbat]

Thanks, most interesting. Was JDR a wannable orientalist? If not, what
motivated him to be a patron of Orientalists?

[Jerry Friedman]

That doesn't surprise me tremendously as an occasional "elegant variation",
not that I watch ABC news. (When I'm visiting my mother I see CNN.) I couldn't
find it at third-part transcripts of the two most recent shows, but they weren't
very good transcripts.

In another post you said it didn't sound like something a New Yorker would
say. But it's a national news show that tries to appeal to the whole
country.

> I like to watch the news while eating my lunch. Usually that means the
> Australian ABC, which of course has no connection with the US ABC.
> Sometimes, though, that time slot is preempted by something boring like
> Parliament Question Time, so then I watch the foreign news. Sometimes
> PBS, so that I can follow the trials of *onald *rump, and sometimes BBC,
> which has a broader view of the world. If all else fails then it's "ABC
> World News", which seems to be unaware that most of the world exists.

Except the Holy Land.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter T. Daniels]

Surely that's covered in "A Productive Collaboration"! He inherited a great
deal of money and couldn't spend it fast enough. The OI, the Cloisters,
Colonial Williamsburg, Rockefeller Center, ....

His first job was assembling the land for his daddy's University of
Chicago without raising suspicion among the city fathers -- whose World's
Columbian Exposition (the 1893 world's fair) was going up across the street.

Nelson Rockefeller (former governor of New York) was supposed to come
to the centennial dinner, but inconveniently got named Vice President a few
days earlier.

I would have liked to meet David Rockefeller, head of Chase Manhattan
Bank (the youngest brother), but he was rather shy and didn't do public
appearances.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Incidentally, JDR3's main project was Lincoln Center.

Nelson, his younger brother, built a huge campus for NY's state government
in Albany -- it's colloquially called Rockefeller Center North., but he didn't
pay for it. And architecturally it has no business stretching out from H. H.
Richardson's masterpiece (well, one of them), the NYS Capitol.

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 7:51:11 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 7:58:43 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 5:57:54 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 10:50:27 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > > > You can read my two historical articles here
> > > > https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/ar/71-80/78-79/78-79_Chicago_Oriental_Studies.pdf
> > > > and here
> > > > https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/rockefeller_centenary.pdf
> > > > (they didn't do a ToC; the essay is on pp. 6-17. The byline is on p. 24.)
> > > Thanks, most interesting. Was JDR a wannable orientalist? If not, what
> > > motivated him to be a patron of Orientalists?
> >
> > Surely that's covered in "A Productive Collaboration"! He inherited a great
> > deal of money and couldn't spend it fast enough. The OI, the Cloisters,
> > Colonial Williamsburg, Rockefeller Center, ....
> Incidentally, JDR3's main project was Lincoln Center.
>

Whose project was Rockefeller Plaza and Radio City?

>
> Nelson, his younger brother, built a huge campus for NY's state government
> in Albany -- it's colloquially called Rockefeller Center North., but he didn't
> pay for it. And architecturally it has no business stretching out from H. H.
> Richardson's masterpiece (well, one of them), the NYS Capitol.
>

Reminds me of being dismayed to find a new shopping center blocking the
view of RI's Capitol in Providence from I-95.
I seem to remember a Henry Hobson from desultory readings about
architecture. Was that by any chance the expansion of H H in
Richardson's name?

>
> > His first job was assembling the land for his daddy's University of
> > Chicago without raising suspicion among the city fathers -- whose World's
> > Columbian Exposition (the 1893 world's fair) was going up across the street.
> >
> > Nelson Rockefeller (former governor of New York) was supposed to come
> > to the centennial dinner, but inconveniently got named Vice President a few
> > days earlier.
> >
> > I would have liked to meet David Rockefeller, head of Chase Manhattan
> > Bank (the youngest brother), but he was rather shy and didn't do public
> > appearances.
>

What did you have to say to him? (i usually don't want to meet someone if I
can't think of what to say)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 11:00:26 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 7:51:11 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 7:58:43 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 5:57:54 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 10:50:27 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > > > > You can read my two historical articles here
> > > > > https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/ar/71-80/78-79/78-79_Chicago_Oriental_Studies.pdf
> > > > > and here
> > > > > https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/rockefeller_centenary.pdf
> > > > > (they didn't do a ToC; the essay is on pp. 6-17. The byline is on p. 24.)
> > > > Thanks, most interesting. Was JDR a wannable orientalist? If not, what
> > > > motivated him to be a patron of Orientalists?
> > > Surely that's covered in "A Productive Collaboration"! He inherited a great
> > > deal of money and couldn't spend it fast enough. The OI, the Cloisters,
> > > Colonial Williamsburg, Rockefeller Center, ....
> > Incidentally, JDR3's main project was Lincoln Center.
>
> Whose project was Rockefeller Plaza and Radio City?

What are those two components of?

> > Nelson, his younger brother, built a huge campus for NY's state government
> > in Albany -- it's colloquially called Rockefeller Center North., but he didn't
> > pay for it. And architecturally it has no business stretching out from H. H.
> > Richardson's masterpiece (well, one of them), the NYS Capitol.
>
> Reminds me of being dismayed to find a new shopping center blocking the
> view of RI's Capitol in Providence from I-95.
> I seem to remember a Henry Hobson from desultory readings about
> architecture. Was that by any chance the expansion of H H in
> Richardson's name?

yes

> > > His first job was assembling the land for his daddy's University of
> > > Chicago without raising suspicion among the city fathers -- whose World's
> > > Columbian Exposition (the 1893 world's fair) was going up across the street.
> > > Nelson Rockefeller (former governor of New York) was supposed to come
> > > to the centennial dinner, but inconveniently got named Vice President a few
> > > days earlier.
> > > I would have liked to meet David Rockefeller, head of Chase Manhattan
> > > Bank (the youngest brother), but he was rather shy and didn't do public
> > > appearances.
> >
> What did you have to say to him? (i usually don't want to meet someone if I
> can't think of what to say)

I wanted to ask what he remembered about the trip to Egypt with Breasted
-- when he (at 14) was the only one recorded as climbing a pyramid. And
what he remembered of James Henry Breasted. I talked to all the people
at the OI who had known him, and the one thing all of them recalled was
his voice. (Which doesn't come over well in his documentary about the OI's
early work -- there's a DVD of it on eBay but the OI site and YouTube don't
have it.).

John Wilson remembered that when the family toured the new OI building,
little Nelson (already the politician, and apparently a Republican) pointed to
the yellow rosettes on the reconstruction of the Ishtar Gate and said "Kansas!"
-- the state's sunflower symbol, which had featured in Alf Landon's campaign
for president in 1936.

[Dingbat]

On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 9:55:32 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 11:00:26 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 7:51:11 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 7:58:43 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 5:57:54 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 10:50:27 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > > > > > You can read my two historical articles here
> > > > > > https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/ar/71-80/78-79/78-79_Chicago_Oriental_Studies.pdf
> > > > > > and here
> > > > > > https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/rockefeller_centenary.pdf
> > > > > > (they didn't do a ToC; the essay is on pp. 6-17. The byline is on p. 24.)
> > > > > Thanks, most interesting. Was JDR a wannable orientalist? If not, what
> > > > > motivated him to be a patron of Orientalists?
> > > > Surely that's covered in "A Productive Collaboration"! He inherited a great
> > > > deal of money and couldn't spend it fast enough. The OI, the Cloisters,
> > > > Colonial Williamsburg, Rockefeller Center, ....
> > > Incidentally, JDR3's main project was Lincoln Center.
> >
> > Whose project was Rockefeller Plaza and Radio City?
> What are those two components of?
>

Rockefeller Center, alternatively called Radio City, whence the name
Radio City Music Hall. Now, I notice Rockefeller Center on your list,
so ignore the question. I was thrown off by your calling Lincoln
Center his main project. Rockefeller Center is bigger, so I figured
that would be his main project if it too was his project, so I didn't
think of looking for it on your list. Lincoln Center might well have
been closer to his heart. If so, that would make it his pet project
more than his main project, IMHO.
>
JDR told this anecdote: He complained to a Ma Bell operator that a
payphone ate his dime. "Give us your name and address and we'll
mail you a refund," offered the operator. "Never mind," he said
and hung up.

>
> > > > I would have liked to meet David Rockefeller, head of Chase Manhattan
> > > > Bank (the youngest brother), but he was rather shy and didn't do public
> > > > appearances.
> > >
> > What did you have to say to him? (i usually don't want to meet someone if I
> > can't think of what to say)
> I wanted to ask what he remembered about the trip to Egypt with Breasted
> -- when he (at 14) was the only one recorded as climbing a pyramid. And
> what he remembered of James Henry Breasted. I talked to all the people
> at the OI who had known him, and the one thing all of them recalled was
> his voice. (Which doesn't come over well in his documentary about the OI's
> early work -- there's a DVD of it on eBay but the OI site and YouTube don't
> have it.).
>

Did he coin 'Fertile Crescent' or borrow it from someone else? He married
2 sisters. In succession, that is. Curious that the 2nd sister was still
available when her sister, his 1st wife, died.

>
> John Wilson remembered that when the family toured the new OI building,
> little Nelson (already the politician, and apparently a Republican) pointed to
> the yellow rosettes on the reconstruction of the Ishtar Gate and said "Kansas!"
> -- the state's sunflower symbol, which had featured in Alf Landon's campaign
> for president in 1936.
>

Odd that a symbol for a sunflower is named for a rose or that a symbol of
a rose evoked an image of a different flower.

[Dingbat]

Perhaps David Rockefeller wrote about it. You can read here what he wrote
about a trip when he was 13.
<https://magazine.uchicago.edu/0212/features/pyramids.html>
If this is the trip you have in mind, you're mistaken that he was 14 since the
trip was in 1928 and he was born in 1915.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Whilst there were rumblings (but not too much, don't want to upset an
oi-producing nation, doncher know) about lack of LGBTetc
support, or even letting women in to watch some games for the recentish
footy cup (with the odd mention of the plight of the sla^w low paid
workers driven to complete the stadiums in time) on the BBC, there was
nowt about that on AlJ.

[Excercise for Reader - redo the above paragraph in simpler English]

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 4:33:24 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 9:55:32 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 11:00:26 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 7:51:11 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 7:58:43 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 5:57:54 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 10:50:27 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > You can read my two historical articles here
> > > > > > > https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/ar/71-80/78-79/78-79_Chicago_Oriental_Studies.pdf
> > > > > > > and here
> > > > > > > https://isac.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/shared/docs/rockefeller_centenary.pdf
> > > > > > > (they didn't do a ToC; the essay is on pp. 6-17. The byline is on p. 24.)
> > > > > > Thanks, most interesting. Was JDR a wannable orientalist? If not, what
> > > > > > motivated him to be a patron of Orientalists?
> > > > > Surely that's covered in "A Productive Collaboration"! He inherited a great
> > > > > deal of money and couldn't spend it fast enough. The OI, the Cloisters,
> > > > > Colonial Williamsburg, Rockefeller Center, ....
> > > > Incidentally, JDR3's main project was Lincoln Center.
> > >
> > > Whose project was Rockefeller Plaza and Radio City?
> > What are those two components of?
> >
> Rockefeller Center, alternatively called Radio City, whence the name
> Radio City Music Hall. Now, I notice Rockefeller Center on your list,
> so ignore the question. I was thrown off by your calling Lincoln
> Center his main project. Rockefeller Center is bigger, so I figured

Now study the difference between JDRJr and JDR3.

> that would be his main project if it too was his project, so I didn't
> think of looking for it on your list. Lincoln Center might well have
> been closer to his heart. If so, that would make it his pet project
> more than his main project, IMHO.
> >
> JDR told this anecdote: He complained to a Ma Bell operator that a
> payphone ate his dime. "Give us your name and address and we'll
> mail you a refund," offered the operator. "Never mind," he said
> and hung up.

Who are you referring to?

> > > > > I would have liked to meet David Rockefeller, head of Chase Manhattan
> > > > > Bank (the youngest brother), but he was rather shy and didn't do public
> > > > > appearances.
> > > What did you have to say to him? (i usually don't want to meet someone if I
> > > can't think of what to say)
> > I wanted to ask what he remembered about the trip to Egypt with Breasted
> > -- when he (at 14) was the only one recorded as climbing a pyramid. And
> > what he remembered of James Henry Breasted. I talked to all the people
> > at the OI who had known him, and the one thing all of them recalled was
> > his voice. (Which doesn't come over well in his documentary about the OI's
> > early work -- there's a DVD of it on eBay but the OI site and YouTube don't
> > have it.).
>
> Did he coin 'Fertile Crescent'

yes

> or borrow it from someone else? He married
> 2 sisters. In succession, that is. Curious that the 2nd sister was still
> available when her sister, his 1st wife, died.
>
> > John Wilson remembered that when the family toured the new OI building,
> > little Nelson (already the politician, and apparently a Republican) pointed to
> > the yellow rosettes on the reconstruction of the Ishtar Gate and said "Kansas!"
> > -- the state's sunflower symbol, which had featured in Alf Landon's campaign
> > for president in 1936.
>
> Odd that a symbol for a sunflower is named for a rose or that a symbol of
> a rose evoked an image of a different flower.

Rosette does not mean rose.

[Dingbat]

Father and son, or son and grandson from another perspective. You
didn't mention JDRJr, so if you meant that Rockefeller Center was his
baby whereas Lincoln Center was JDR3's, I missed that.

>
> > that would be his main project if it too was his project, so I didn't
> > think of looking for it on your list. Lincoln Center might well have
> > been closer to his heart. If so, that would make it his pet project
> > more than his main project, IMHO.
> > >
> > JDR told this anecdote: He complained to a Ma Bell operator that a
> > payphone ate his dime. "Give us your name and address and we'll
> > mail you a refund," offered the operator. "Never mind," he said
> > and hung up.
> Who are you referring to?
>

I don't know whether it was JDR Jr or JDR3; when I read that anecdote,
I didn't know of multiple JDRs. It sure wasn't JDR Sr.

>
> >
> > > John Wilson remembered that when the family toured the new OI building,
> > > little Nelson (already the politician, and apparently a Republican) pointed to
> > > the yellow rosettes on the reconstruction of the Ishtar Gate and said "Kansas!"
> > > -- the state's sunflower symbol, which had featured in Alf Landon's campaign
> > > for president in 1936.
> >
> > Odd that a symbol for a sunflower is named for a rose or that a symbol of
> > a rose evoked an image of a different flower.
> Rosette does not mean rose.
>

How curious. If it can refer to a non-rose-flower-like pattern, it should be
fleurette, IMHO.

[Peter T. Daniels]

I 'splained that his first job was secretly assembling the land for the
U of C -- he did the same thing half a century later for the UN headquarters
on the East River, which was actually a big reason it ended up there and
not in, say, Geneva -- and sent you to my account of his relationship with
the OI.

> > > that would be his main project if it too was his project, so I didn't
> > > think of looking for it on your list. Lincoln Center might well have
> > > been closer to his heart. If so, that would make it his pet project
> > > more than his main project, IMHO.
> > > JDR told this anecdote: He complained to a Ma Bell operator that a
> > > payphone ate his dime. "Give us your name and address and we'll
> > > mail you a refund," offered the operator. "Never mind," he said
> > > and hung up.
> > Who are you referring to?
>
> I don't know whether it was JDR Jr or JDR3; when I read that anecdote,
> I didn't know of multiple JDRs. It sure wasn't JDR Sr.
>
> > > > John Wilson remembered that when the family toured the new OI building,
> > > > little Nelson (already the politician, and apparently a Republican) pointed to
> > > > the yellow rosettes on the reconstruction of the Ishtar Gate and said "Kansas!"
> > > > -- the state's sunflower symbol, which had featured in Alf Landon's campaign
> > > > for president in 1936.
> > > Odd that a symbol for a sunflower is named for a rose or that a symbol of
> > > a rose evoked an image of a different flower.
> > Rosette does not mean rose.
>
> How curious. If it can refer to a non-rose-flower-like pattern, it should be
> fleurette, IMHO.

I can't find a picture of the Chicago version, but here's the Berlin one:

https://www.hellotickets.co.uk/germany/berlin/pergamo-museum/sc-158-3781

The centers of the rosettes are very yellow innthe Chicago one.

Many of the Pergamon's treasures were displayed at the Met Museum in NY
while the Pergamon was being renovated.

[Peter Moylan]

Drifting sideways a little: when Qatar was in the news a couple of years
ago, our newsreaders took the effort to pronounce the name correctly.
(It sounds a bit like "cutter", with first-syllable stress.) When it was
again newsworthy just recently, they all seemed to have forgotten the
pronunciation lessons, and were back to called it Catarrh.

[lar3ryca]

I don't pronounce Paris, Moscow, or many other cities and countries as
the citizens of them do. If Qatar wants us to pronounce it even close to
they way they do, they should supply us with a bettertransliteration.

The Indians have done that with Mumbai, Kolkatta, etc.

--
For sale. CD of Snoozy McGregor's Bagpipe Lullabies.

[Dingbat]

People in India don't have trouble with the transliteration Qatar.
They use two of the same vowel, as appears in the transliteration.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Peter Moylan wrote:

> Drifting sideways a little: when Qatar was in the news a couple of years
> ago, our newsreaders took the effort to pronounce the name correctly.
> (It sounds a bit like "cutter", with first-syllable stress.) When it was
> again newsworthy just recently, they all seemed to have forgotten the
> pronunciation lessons, and were back to called it Catarrh.

Our Danish newsreaders (in casu not programs) have only said "Catarrh".

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Silvano]

lar3ryca hat am 28.10.2023 um 01:20 geschrieben:

I don't get it. I won't discuss about the quality of the "a" vowels or
the Arabic sound "q", which is non-existent in European languages,
AFAIK. But why do many native English speakers use second-syllable
stress in the word Qatar even after being told that the stress goes on
the first vowel?

About transliteration: do you know it better than generations of
European and American linguists?
As an aside: Qataris never need to transliterate Arabic. They can read it!

By the way: the correct name is romanization or transcription. The
transliteration - i.e. one foreign letter = one letter of the Latin
alphabet - would be qṭr or even qtr.
For beginners: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic>

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Silvano wrote:

> I don't get it. I won't discuss about the quality of the "a" vowels or
> the Arabic sound "q", which is non-existent in European languages,
> AFAIK. But why do many native English speakers use second-syllable
> stress in the word Qatar even after being told that the stress goes on
> the first vowel?

Because it comes natural - also for Danes.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Peter Moylan]

I have just realised that the English spelling (and presumably also the
Danish spelling) is partly to blame. If it was written Qater, we'd
naturally choose first-syllable stress.

Presumably the 'a' was deduced by some dot pattern in the Arabic, but I
don't know enough about Arabic to say.

Does English have any two-syllable words ending in "ar" that don't have
final-syllable stress? For now I can't think of any, although I can
think of three-syllable examples.

[Janet]

In article <uhhet2$2gid1$1...@dont-email.me>,
pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid says...

>
> Drifting sideways a little: when Qatar was in the news a couple of years
> ago, our newsreaders took the effort to pronounce the name correctly.
> (It sounds a bit like "cutter", with first-syllable stress.) When it was
> again newsworthy just recently, they all seemed to have forgotten the
> pronunciation lessons, and were back to called it Catarrh.

I'm wondering how they pronounce Paris, Copenhagen,
Munich? Probably the same way ours do.

Janet

[Janet]

In article <uhimtf$2r1i2$1...@dont-email.me>,
pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid says...

>
> On 28/10/23 20:54, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> > Silvano wrote:
> >
> >> I don't get it. I won't discuss about the quality of the "a" vowels
> >> or the Arabic sound "q", which is non-existent in European
> >> languages, AFAIK. But why do many native English speakers use
> >> second-syllable stress in the word Qatar even after being told that
> >> the stress goes on the first vowel?

For the same reason we don't stress the final syllable
of Paris ?

> >
> > Because it comes natural - also for Danes.
>
> I have just realised that the English spelling (and presumably also the
> Danish spelling) is partly to blame. If it was written Qater, we'd
> naturally choose first-syllable stress.
>
> Presumably the 'a' was deduced by some dot pattern in the Arabic, but I
> don't know enough about Arabic to say.
>
> Does English have any two-syllable words ending in "ar" that don't have
> final-syllable stress? For now I can't think of any, although I can
> think of three-syllable examples.

First syllable stress on

Cedar, altar,sugar, lunar, sonar, solar, polar

Janet

[Peter Moylan]

On 28/10/23 22:12, Janet wrote:
> In article <uhimtf$2r1i2$1...@dont-email.me>,
> pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid says...

>> Does English have any two-syllable words ending in "ar" that don't have
>> final-syllable stress? For now I can't think of any, although I can
>> think of three-syllable examples.
>
> First syllable stress on
>
> Cedar, altar,sugar, lunar, sonar, solar, polar

Thanks. More common than I'd guessed, then.

[Peter Moylan]

Western European big-city names are a special case, I think. They got
their English names in an era when English speakers were reluctant to
even attempt the "foreign" pronunciations, and perhaps even had a snooty
attitude that those foreigners really ought to learn English. Some of
the results were silly, e.g. Leghorn in Italy, or the confusion over
whether all French place names had to end in 's', but mostly we're stuck
with the results.

(And of course in some cases the originals were too hard to say.
München, for example, contains TWO sounds that don't occur in English.)

Australia was settled by English speakers after than period, so of
course we kept the same versions as used in England.

The present-day attitude is to attempt a pronunciation that's closer to
the native original. The result is never perfect, but at least we get a
good approximation. That applies to place names that never got a
traditional English pronunciation, and Qatar is one of those.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

That's basically how they say it on French TV, though with no
particular stress of the second syllable.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2023-10-28 10:14:03 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 28/10/23 20:54, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Silvano wrote:
>>
>>> I don't get it. I won't discuss about the quality of the "a" vowels
>>> or the Arabic sound "q", which is non-existent in European
>>> languages, AFAIK. But why do many native English speakers use
>>> second-syllable stress in the word Qatar even after being told that
>>> the stress goes on the first vowel?
>>
>> Because it comes natural - also for Danes.
>
> I have just realised that the English spelling (and presumably also the
> Danish spelling) is partly to blame. If it was written Qater, we'd
> naturally choose first-syllable stress.
>
> Presumably the 'a' was deduced by some dot pattern in the Arabic, but I
> don't know enough about Arabic to say.
>
> Does English have any two-syllable words ending in "ar" that don't have
> final-syllable stress?

Stellar

> For now I can't think of any, although I can
> think of three-syllable examples.


--

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2023-10-28 11:44:55 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 28/10/23 22:05, Janet wrote:
>> In article <uhhet2$2gid1$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>> says...
>>
>>> Drifting sideways a little: when Qatar was in the news a couple of
>>> years ago, our newsreaders took the effort to pronounce the name
>>> correctly. (It sounds a bit like "cutter", with first-syllable
>>> stress.) When it was again newsworthy just recently, they all
>>> seemed to have forgotten the pronunciation lessons, and were back
>>> to called it Catarrh.
>>
>> I'm wondering how they pronounce Paris, Copenhagen, Munich? Probably
>> the same way ours do.
>
> Western European big-city names are a special case, I think. They got
> their English names in an era when English speakers were reluctant to
> even attempt the "foreign" pronunciations, and perhaps even had a snooty
> attitude that those foreigners really ought to learn English. Some of
> the results were silly, e.g. Leghorn in Italy, or the confusion over
> whether all French place names had to end in 's',

The French have the same idea about place names in England: the only
four specifically French names that I can think of are Londres,
Douvres, Cornouailles and Cantorbéry, of which none have s in English
but 3/4 have s in French.

> but mostly we're stuck
> with the results.
>
> (And of course in some cases the originals were too hard to say.
> München, for example, contains TWO sounds that don't occur in English.)
>
> Australia was settled by English speakers after than period, so of
> course we kept the same versions as used in England.
>
> The present-day attitude is to attempt a pronunciation that's closer to
> the native original. The result is never perfect, but at least we get a
> good approximation. That applies to place names that never got a
> traditional English pronunciation, and Qatar is one of those.


--

[Peter T. Daniels]

The difference between Vernacular and Standard Arabic.

Our newspeople seem to have widely been told to say "gutter.," not too
complimentary. (Maybe that will change if their negotiators have dfurther
success in freeing hostages.)

Wikip has "Qatar (US: /ˈkɑːtɑːr, kəˈtɑːr/;Arabic: قطر Qaṭar [ˈqɑtˤɑr], local
vernacular pronunciation: [ˈɡɪtˤɑr]).

https://arabic.fi/words/1886

gives the Standard pronunciation (and the written vocalization).

Two things: both syllables have a short /a/, which would point to
something shwa-like in both of them -- but the t is a t-underdot,
which causes adjacent vowels to be drawn down and back, hence [ɑ].
(The initial q doesn't hurt in that effect, either.)

[musika]

On 28/10/2023 12:44, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Western European big-city names are a special case, I think. They got
> their English names in an era when English speakers were reluctant to
> even attempt the "foreign" pronunciations, and perhaps even had a snooty
> attitude that those foreigners really ought to learn English. Some of
> the results were silly, e.g. Leghorn in Italy, or the confusion over
> whether all French place names had to end in 's', but mostly we're stuck
> with the results.
>

Might I point out that Leghorn derives from its Genoese name "Ligorna".

--
Ray
UK

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 4:08:19 AM UTC-4, Silvano wrote:
> lar3ryca hat am 28.10.2023 um 01:20 geschrieben:
> > On 2023-10-27 16:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> Drifting sideways a little: when Qatar was in the news a couple of years
> >> ago, our newsreaders took the effort to pronounce the name correctly.
> >> (It sounds a bit like "cutter", with first-syllable stress.) When it was
> >> again newsworthy just recently, they all seemed to have forgotten the
> >> pronunciation lessons, and were back to called it Catarrh.
> >
> > I don't pronounce Paris, Moscow, or many other cities and countries as
> > the citizens of them do. If Qatar wants us to pronounce it even close to
> > they way they do, they should supply us with a bettertransliteration.
>
> I don't get it. I won't discuss about the quality of the "a" vowels or
> the Arabic sound "q", which is non-existent in European languages,
> AFAIK. But why do many native English speakers use second-syllable
> stress in the word Qatar even after being told that the stress goes on
> the first vowel?
>
> About transliteration: do you know it better than generations of
> European and American linguists?

He also apparently is unaware that Arabic is pronounced differently
in virtually every Arabic-speaking community.

> As an aside: Qataris never need to transliterate Arabic. They can read it!
>
> By the way: the correct name is romanization or transcription. The
> transliteration - i.e. one foreign letter = one letter of the Latin
> alphabet - would be qṭr or even qtr.

(Only if you ignore the two fatHa's.)

> For beginners: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic>

[Peter T. Daniels]

Which English? I'm given to understand that "SEE-gar" used to be common
in some cultures for "cigar."

You probably won't cavil about "cedar," though.

Don't Brits say BER-ser for "bursar," presumably giving rise to "purser"?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 7:30:36 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 28/10/23 22:12, Janet wrote:
> > In article <uhimtf$2r1i2$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid says...
> >> Does English have any two-syllable words ending in "ar" that don't have
> >> final-syllable stress? For now I can't think of any, although I can
> >> think of three-syllable examples.
> >
> > First syllable stress on
> >
> > Cedar, altar,sugar, lunar, sonar, solar, polar
> Thanks. More common than I'd guessed, then.

Sonar has secondary stress on the second syllable Like radar.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 7:45:04 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:

> (And of course in some cases the originals were too hard to say.
> München, for example, contains TWO sounds that don't occur in English.)

Hence "Monaco."

Which can be confusing!

[Chris Elvidge]

You could use a foghorn to make the point more forcibly.


--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT HIDE THE TEACHER'S PROZAC

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 21:14:03 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 28/10/23 20:54, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Silvano wrote:
>>
>>> I don't get it. I won't discuss about the quality of the "a" vowels
>>> or the Arabic sound "q", which is non-existent in European
>>> languages, AFAIK. But why do many native English speakers use
>>> second-syllable stress in the word Qatar even after being told that
>>> the stress goes on the first vowel?
>>
>> Because it comes natural - also for Danes.
>
>I have just realised that the English spelling (and presumably also the
>Danish spelling) is partly to blame. If it was written Qater, we'd
>naturally choose first-syllable stress.

Or even better, Qatter or Catter.

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:44:55 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 28/10/23 22:05, Janet wrote:
>> In article <uhhet2$2gid1$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>> says...
>>
>>> Drifting sideways a little: when Qatar was in the news a couple of
>>> years ago, our newsreaders took the effort to pronounce the name
>>> correctly. (It sounds a bit like "cutter", with first-syllable
>>> stress.) When it was again newsworthy just recently, they all
>>> seemed to have forgotten the pronunciation lessons, and were back
>>> to called it Catarrh.
>>
>> I'm wondering how they pronounce Paris, Copenhagen, Munich? Probably
>> the same way ours do.
>
>Western European big-city names are a special case, I think. They got
>their English names in an era when English speakers were reluctant to
>even attempt the "foreign" pronunciations, and perhaps even had a snooty
>attitude that those foreigners really ought to learn English. Some of
>the results were silly, e.g. Leghorn in Italy, or the confusion over
>whether all French place names had to end in 's', but mostly we're stuck
>with the results.

One of the things that's always seemed strange to me is the
spelling/pronunciation of some Italian cities. Most northern cities
have English spelling/pronunciation (Rome, Naples, Florence, Venice,
Milan, Turin), but some (Bologna, Assissi, Siena) and most in Sicily
(Palermo, Catania, Taormina--but not Siracusa) do not. Why so much
inconsistency?

[lar3ryca]

On 2023-10-28 02:07, Silvano wrote:
> lar3ryca hat am 28.10.2023 um 01:20 geschrieben:
>> On 2023-10-27 16:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Drifting sideways a little: when Qatar was in the news a couple of years
>>> ago, our newsreaders took the effort to pronounce the name correctly.
>>> (It sounds a bit like "cutter", with first-syllable stress.) When it was
>>> again newsworthy just recently, they all seemed to have forgotten the
>>> pronunciation lessons, and were back to called it Catarrh.
>>
>> I don't pronounce Paris, Moscow, or many other cities and countries as
>> the citizens of them do. If Qatar wants us to pronounce it even close to
>> they way they do, they should supply us with a bettertransliteration.
>
>
> I don't get it. I won't discuss about the quality of the "a" vowels or
> the Arabic sound "q", which is non-existent in European languages,
> AFAIK. But why do many native English speakers use second-syllable
> stress in the word Qatar even after being told that the stress goes on
> the first vowel?

A 'q' in English, with an immediately following vowel that is not 'u'
would tend to be pronounced like a 'k'. I suspect many native English
speakers stress the second syllable for no other reason than that it
sounds 'right' to them. If it were spelled Qattar, it would likely be
stressed on the first syllable.

As for the 'even after being told', comment, I would point out that
having been told once, it would likely be trumped before long by the
stress expected by the spelling.

Another example, the pronunciation of 'Kiev', which is the long
established (in English) spelling of the city, has been pronounced by
most native English speakers as "key-'ev" (short e, as in "left"). We
have been told by newscasters that the proper pronunciation varies
between...

"Keeve" (vowel as in "reeve" or "heave"), which of course is stressed on
the only syllable. [1]

and

"Key-iv" ('i' vowel as in "give", and usually equally stressed.

Personally, the 'keeve' pronunciation bugs me, and as far as I can tell,
the "key-iv" pronunciation is how I hear Ukrainians say it, so that's
the way I say it.

> About transliteration: do you know it better than generations of
> European and American linguists?

No, and I have never claimed to know more. I do know how I speak, and
how I pronounce any given word, and the reason(s) for that pronunciation.

> As an aside: Qataris never need to transliterate Arabic. They can read it!

91] Thanks for that information, Captain Obvious.

> By the way: the correct name is romanization or transcription. The
> transliteration - i.e. one foreign letter = one letter of the Latin
> alphabet - would be qṭr or even qtr.

Big deal. So I used the wrong term. Did you understand what I meant?
If not, I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain it to you.

> For beginners: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic>

--
The large print giveth, and
the small print taketh away.

[lar3ryca]

On 2023-10-28 02:07, Silvano wrote:

> lar3ryca hat am 28.10.2023 um 01:20 geschrieben:
>> On 2023-10-27 16:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> Drifting sideways a little: when Qatar was in the news a couple of years
>>> ago, our newsreaders took the effort to pronounce the name correctly.
>>> (It sounds a bit like "cutter", with first-syllable stress.) When it was
>>> again newsworthy just recently, they all seemed to have forgotten the
>>> pronunciation lessons, and were back to called it Catarrh.
>>
>> I don't pronounce Paris, Moscow, or many other cities and countries as
>> the citizens of them do. If Qatar wants us to pronounce it even close to
>> they way they do, they should supply us with a bettertransliteration.
>
>
> I don't get it. I won't discuss about the quality of the "a" vowels or
> the Arabic sound "q", which is non-existent in European languages,
> AFAIK. But why do many native English speakers use second-syllable
> stress in the word Qatar even after being told that the stress goes on
> the first vowel?

A 'q' in English, with an immediately following vowel that is not 'u'
would tend to be pronounced like a 'k'. I suspect many native English
speakers stress the second syllable for no other reason than that it
sounds 'right' to them. If it were spelled Qattar, it would likely be
stressed on the first syllable.

As for the 'even after being told', comment, I would point out that
having been told once, it would likely be trumped before long by the
stress expected by the spelling.

Another example, the pronunciation of 'Kiev', which is the long
established (in English) spelling of the city, has been pronounced by
most native English speakers as "key-'ev" (short e, as in "left"). We
have been told by newscasters that the proper pronunciation varies
between...

"Keeve" (vowel as in "reeve" or "heave"), which of course is stressed on
the only syllable. [1]

and

"Key-iv" ('i' vowel as in "give", and usually equally stressed.

Personally, the 'keeve' pronunciation bugs me, and as far as I can tell,
the "key-iv" pronunciation is how I hear Ukrainians say it, so that's
the way I say it.

> About transliteration: do you know it better than generations of
> European and American linguists?

No, and I have never claimed to know more. I do know how I speak, and
how I pronounce any given word, and the reason(s) for that pronunciation.

> As an aside: Qataris never need to transliterate Arabic. They can read it!

[1] Thanks for that information, Captain Obvious.

> By the way: the correct name is romanization or transcription. The
> transliteration - i.e. one foreign letter = one letter of the Latin
> alphabet - would be qṭr or even qtr.

[Dingbat]

Egyptian Skt is transcribed as Seket. Why are different vowels chosen
for transcribing Skt and Qtr?

[Dingbat]

How would Arabs pronounce it if the t were not underdot?

[Paul Wolff]

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023, at 06:35:44, Peter T. Daniels posted:

Yes to part 1, no to the subsequent presumption. Bursars do
disbursements from a treasury, pursers look after mere purses.
--
Paul W

[Paul Wolff]

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023, at 14:30:03, musika posted:

What about its Genovese name?
--
Paul W

[Paul Wolff]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, at 07:44:41, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 4:13:400 >
>> "Middle East essentially supplanted Near East in the early 20th century,
>> although the two are now used interchangeably among English speakers.
>> So, for all intents and purposes, Middle East and Near East refer to the
>> same region when used today" -
>>
>><https://www.britannica.com/story/are-the-middle-east-and-the-near-east
>>-the-same-thing>
>
>That's quite wrong.
>
>The Near East refers to ancient times, the Middle East to modern times.
>The same area, different scholars.
>
>Apparently some Brits have tried using "Near East" for the western
>(mostly Semitic-speaking) area and "Middle East" for Iran/Afghanistan
>(mainly Iranian-speaking). It didn't catch on.

I come late to this thread. One of my books dealing with the area
between modern Iran and the Mediterranean Sea consistently uses the
phrase "South-west Asia" and if I could find which book it was, which I
couldn't in just the past ten minutes, I could give the reason the
author gave and the specific area he/she meant it to mean. It was
probably to avoid some perceived ambiguity.
--
Paul W

[musika]

Probably Vito.

[Hibou]

Le 28/10/2023 à 12:44, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>
> Western European big-city names are a special case, I think. They got
> their English names in an era when English speakers were reluctant to
> even attempt the "foreign" pronunciations, and perhaps even had a snooty
> attitude that those foreigners really ought to learn English.

Perhaps that wasn't so unreasonable. Most have now done so.

> Some of
> the results were silly, e.g. Leghorn in Italy, or the confusion over
> whether all French place names had to end in 's', but mostly we're stuck

> with the results. [...]

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 08:34:12 -0700
Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
[]

>
> One of the things that's always seemed strange to me is the
> spelling/pronunciation of some Italian cities. Most northern cities
> have English spelling/pronunciation (Rome, Naples, Florence, Venice,
> Milan, Turin), but some (Bologna, Assissi, Siena) and most in Sicily
> (Palermo, Catania, Taormina--but not Siracusa) do not. Why so much
> inconsistency?
>

Only those on the Continental Tour got English names would be my guess.

I was too late to go to Ratisbon.


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Janet]

In article <8899ec16-bc36-4cd3-9d04-470bdf2e54e2
@invalid.ca>, la...@invalid.ca says...

> Another example, the pronunciation of 'Kiev', which is the long
> established (in English) spelling of the city, has been pronounced by
> most native English speakers as "key-'ev" (short e, as in "left"). We
> have been told by newscasters that the proper pronunciation varies
> between...
>
> "Keeve" (vowel as in "reeve" or "heave"), which of course is stressed on
> the only syllable. [1]

Just heard this on TV; cooks discussing the recipe
Chicken Kiev (kee-ev ) and one of them added "or Keeve, as
we say now".

It's been Chicken Kee-ev in Br.E for 50 years, ever
since the recipe became popular in the 1970's.

Until events in Ukraine hit the news headlines.

Janet

[Janet]

In article <j84MCExh...@wolff.co.uk>,
boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk says...

British navy pursers pronounce it pusser.
Doesnt rhyme with bursar.

Janet

[Chris Elvidge]

Kiev is the romanised Russian spelling of the name of the Ukranian capital.
Kyiv is the romanised Ukranian spelling (and is preferred now 'cos of
the war.)

From Wikipedia:
English: Kyiv (/ˈkiːjɪv/ KEE-yiv,[14] /kiːv/ KEEV[15]) or Kiev (/ˈkiːɛv/
KEE-ev)[16][17]
Ukrainian: Київ, romanized: Kyiv, pronounced [ˈkɪjiu̯]
Russian: Киев (pre-1918 Кіевъ), romanized: Kiev, pronounced [ˈkʲi(j)ɪf]


--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT BRING SHEEP TO CLASS

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 6:19:33 PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

> Egyptian Skt is transcribed as Seket. Why are different vowels chosen
> for transcribing Skt and Qtr?

Any vowels added to Egyptian consonants are sheer guesses.

The pair of e's mean simply a way to get the three consonants out.

lar3 is ignorant and unteachable (as the late Franz used to say, unlearnable).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Ragular dental t, vowels sort of kike the Sanskrit ones

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 7:21:22 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, at 07:44:41, Peter T. Daniels posted:
> >On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 4:13:400 >

> >> "Middle East essentially supplanted Near East in the early 20th century,
> >> although the two are now used interchangeably among English speakers.
> >> So, for all intents and purposes, Middle East and Near East refer to the
> >> same region when used today" -
> >><https://www.britannica.com/story/are-the-middle-east-and-the-near-east
> >>-the-same-thing>
> >That's quite wrong.
> >The Near East refers to ancient times, the Middle East to modern times.
> >The same area, different scholars.
> >Apparently some Brits have tried using "Near East" for the western
> >(mostly Semitic-speaking) area and "Middle East" for Iran/Afghanistan
> >(mainly Iranian-speaking). It didn't catch on.

Athel mentioned a 1955 Oxford atlas using those and noted they were
already obsolete then.

> I come late to this thread. One of my books dealing with the area
> between modern Iran and the Mediterranean Sea consistently uses the
> phrase "South-west Asia" and if I could find which book it was, which I

That's used generally now, to avoid the European p.o.v.

[Peter T. Daniels]

It's really very simple. KEE-ev is Russian, the other choices
are attempts to imitate the Ukrainian pronunciation.

It's unlikely that anyone connects Chicken Kiev with Ukrainian
cuisine (it isn't on the menus at Ukrainian restaurants n the
Lower East Side), any more than Peach Melba is associated
with Australia.

(Ukrainian Village, around 8th St. & Second Ave., Manhattan, NYC,
is still where their churches and businesses are, but the people, like
most Lower East Siders, have mostly been gentrified away and return
for the community.)

[Paul Wolff]

On Sun, 29 Oct 2023, at 06:10:10, Peter T. Daniels posted:
>On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 7:21:220 >> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, at 07:44:41, Peter T. Daniels posted:

>> >On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 4:13:400 >
>
>> >> "Middle East essentially supplanted Near East in the early 20th century,
>> >> although the two are now used interchangeably among English speakers.
>> >> So, for all intents and purposes, Middle East and Near East refer to the
>> >> same region when used today" -
>> >><https://www.britannica.com/story/are-the-middle-east-and-the-near-east
>> >>-the-same-thing>
>> >That's quite wrong.
>> >The Near East refers to ancient times, the Middle East to modern times.
>> >The same area, different scholars.
>> >Apparently some Brits have tried using "Near East" for the western
>> >(mostly Semitic-speaking) area and "Middle East" for Iran/Afghanistan
>> >(mainly Iranian-speaking). It didn't catch on.
>
>Athel mentioned a 1955 Oxford atlas using those and noted they were
>already obsolete then.
>
>> I come late to this thread. One of my books dealing with the area
>> between modern Iran and the Mediterranean Sea consistently uses the
>> phrase "South-west Asia" and if I could find which book it was, which I
>
>That's used generally now, to avoid the European p.o.v.

My author actually wrote "I have deliberately avoided employing the more
usual label 'ancient near East'. To be blunt, it is Western-centric and
freighted with colonial baggage (much like its older metonym, 'the
Orient'). Instead, I refer to 'ancient south-west Asia'."

>
>> couldn't in just the past ten minutes, I could give the reason the
>> author gave and the specific area he/she meant it to mean. It was
>> probably to avoid some perceived ambiguity.

--
Paul W

[Sam Plusnet]

Marks & Spenser (or M&S, since they rebranded themselves) were quite
quick to change the text on their ready-made "Chicken Kyiv".

--
Sam Plusnet

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

There's fancy!
It's been decades since I've entered one of Marks and Spencers stores.

[Sam Plusnet]

We have groceries etc. delivered by Ocado.
M&S supply a large proportion of the stuff Ocado sell.
It used to be Waitrose stuff, but those two firms fell out of love with
each other.

--
Sam Plusnet

[J. J. Lodder]

Don't. They'll stop laying eggs for you if you shout at them,

Jan

[occam]

On 25/10/2023 12:34, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Dingbat <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>> On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 1:43:40?PM UTC+5:30, Hibou wrote:
>>> "Middle East essentially supplanted Near East in the early 20th century,
>>> although the two are now used interchangeably among English speakers.
>>> So, for all intents and purposes, Middle East and Near East refer to the
>>> same region when used today" -
>>> <https://www.britannica.com/story/are-the-middle-east-and-the-near-east-the-
> same-thing>
>>>

>>> So that's us oriented then.
>>>
>> Older terms:
>> The Orient Express terminated in Istanbul, but parts of Asia abutting the
>> Mediterranean Sea were Asia Minor and the Orient on one dated map I've
>> seen. I haven't seen the legend Levant on a map. To what extent was there
>> overlap between areas covered by these terms?
>
> How about this one?
> <https://cdn.britannica.com/46/241346-050-B984E7C5/Locator-map-Levant.jpg>
>
> This one has the present day national boundaries,
> but you can also find maps in which it is somewhat larger,
> and with a more diffuse boundary.


> So 'the Levant' should not be used as a synonym for 'the Middle East',
>

Quite right. The Levant is a proper subset of 'the Middle-East'. The
problem is that - for me - Middle-East contains the north of parts of a
number of African countries (Egypt, Libya etc) as well as non-Levant
countries like Iraq, Turkey. However I would not accept the Britannica
depiction, including the Sudan, Afghanistan and other countries of the
Arabian peninsula.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Ancient South Arabian and Aksum (classical Ethiopia) are certainly
part of Near Eastern Studies.

[J. J. Lodder]

It is something of a mystery that English has gotten stuck
with that strange German-looking name for it,
while the Germans themselves use the Italian name of the place,

Jan

spoiler below





































PS, Yes, I know the answer,
English takes the name from the old Italian form 'Legorno'.
Dutch has 'Livorno' for the place, and 'Leghorn' for the egg-layers,
as an English loan word.

[J. J. Lodder]

Guess it is more like 'our traditional business partners',
(in the Eastern Mediterranean)
or 'the part of the world that we had crusades in',
(and some environs)

Jan

[Paul Wolff]

On Mon, 30 Oct 2023, at 16:05:30, J. J. Lodder posted:

>Paul Wolff <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023, at 14:30:03, musika posted:
>> >On 28/10/2023 12:44, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> >> Western European big-city names are a special case, I think. They got
>> >> their English names in an era when English speakers were reluctant to
>> >> even attempt the "foreign" pronunciations, and perhaps even had a snooty
>> >> attitude that those foreigners really ought to learn English. Some of
>> >> the results were silly, e.g. Leghorn in Italy, or the confusion over
>> >> whether all French place names had to end in 's', but mostly we're stuck
>> >> with the results.
>> >>
>> >Might I point out that Leghorn derives from its Genoese name "Ligorna".
>> >
>> What about its Genovese name?
>
>It is something of a mystery that English has gotten stuck
>with that strange German-looking name for it,
>while the Germans themselves use the Italian name of the place,

Nothing wrong with what follows, but my remark was just to flag up that
in Italy, Genoa is Genova, and there's an English word Genovese too.

>
>Jan
>
>spoiler below
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>PS, Yes, I know the answer,
>English takes the name from the old Italian form 'Legorno'.
>Dutch has 'Livorno' for the place, and 'Leghorn' for the egg-layers,
>as an English loan word.

--
Paul W

[J. J. Lodder]

Paul Wolff <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023, at 16:05:30, J. J. Lodder posted:
> >Paul Wolff <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023, at 14:30:03, musika posted:
> >> >On 28/10/2023 12:44, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> >> Western European big-city names are a special case, I think. They got
> >> >> their English names in an era when English speakers were reluctant to
> >> >> even attempt the "foreign" pronunciations, and perhaps even had a snooty
> >> >> attitude that those foreigners really ought to learn English. Some of
> >> >> the results were silly, e.g. Leghorn in Italy, or the confusion over
> >> >> whether all French place names had to end in 's', but mostly we're stuck
> >> >> with the results.
> >> >>
> >> >Might I point out that Leghorn derives from its Genoese name "Ligorna".
> >> >
> >> What about its Genovese name?
> >
> >It is something of a mystery that English has gotten stuck
> >with that strange German-looking name for it,
> >while the Germans themselves use the Italian name of the place,
>
> Nothing wrong with what follows, but my remark was just to flag up that
> in Italy, Genoa is Genova, and there's an English word Genovese too.

Same as in Dutch, with Genovees and Genuees. (when used as adjectives)
However the inhabitantats are 'een Genuees', and 'de Genuezen',
no other form.
I guess it is the same in English, but I'm not sure,

Jan

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

It can be confusing if you're driving on the autoroute in the vicinity
of Nice and your geography is a bit vague. You see a sign for Gênes: it
that Genoa or is it Geneva?

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

[Dingbat]

On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 1:15:24 AM UTC+5:30, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023, at 16:05:30, J. J. Lodder posted:
> >Paul Wolff <boun...@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 28 Oct 2023, at 14:30:03, musika posted:
> >> >On 28/10/2023 12:44, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> >> Western European big-city names are a special case, I think. They got
> >> >> their English names in an era when English speakers were reluctant to
> >> >> even attempt the "foreign" pronunciations, and perhaps even had a snooty
> >> >> attitude that those foreigners really ought to learn English. Some of
> >> >> the results were silly, e.g. Leghorn in Italy, or the confusion over
> >> >> whether all French place names had to end in 's', but mostly we're stuck
> >> >> with the results.
> >> >>
> >> >Might I point out that Leghorn derives from its Genoese name "Ligorna".
> >> >
> >> What about its Genovese name?
> >
> >It is something of a mystery that English has gotten stuck
> >with that strange German-looking name for it,
> >while the Germans themselves use the Italian name of the place,
> Nothing wrong with what follows, but my remark was just to flag up that
> in Italy, Genoa is Genova, and there's an English word Genovese too.
> >

There's a fabric genoa presumably named after Genoa. It's different
from sailcloth fabric 'bleu de Gênes' (also named after Genoa) which
was repurposed to make jeans, but in due course, jeans were also made
with a different cloth Serge de Nimes, whence Denim.

[Dingbat]

A sign for Geneva would say Geneve.