Hero = submarine?
parker
you guys since it's so interesting.
Is a hero the same as a submarine? Is it also called by these names:
grinder, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo?
When referring to the sandwich, the plural of 'hero' is 'heros'
instead of 'heroes'?
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Although the m-w dictionary says so, I still would like to check with
>you guys since it's so interesting.
>
>Is a hero the same as a submarine? Is it also called by these names:
>grinder, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo?
>
Yes, but you must wait for the definitive answer from Areff.
Lars Eighner
<jopv70tc356e5o38v...@4ax.com>,
the lovely and talented parker
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Although the m-w dictionary says so, I still would like to check with
> you guys since it's so interesting.
> Is a hero the same as a submarine?
Yes.
> Is it also called by these names:
> grinder, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo?
Yes. These are all local names for essentially the same thing:
a sandwich with numerous ingredients on a baguette-shaped soft
bun. There is some local variation in the expectation of what
the ingredients will be.
> When referring to the sandwich, the plural of 'hero' is 'heros'
> instead of 'heroes'?
Usually.
--
Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- eig...@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
"The very essence of the creative is its novelty, and hence we have no
standard by which to judge it." --Carl R. Rogers, On Becoming a Person
John O'Flaherty
wrote:
>Although the m-w dictionary says so, I still would like to check with
>you guys since it's so interesting.
>
>Is a hero the same as a submarine? Is it also called by these names:
>grinder, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo?
If the hero is a submarine, the torpedo should be an anti-hero.
--
john
Areff
> Although the m-w dictionary says so, I still would like to check with
you guys since it's so interesting.
>
> Is a hero the same as a submarine? Is it also called by these names:
> grinder, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo?
These various terms are regional in nature, with the exception of "sub",
which seems to be getting close to being a GenAm national sort of word,
thanks in part to the success of those fast food sub chains that Coop
likes so much. I think of "sub" as a New England coastal name. (The
Subway chain started out in Connecticut IINM.)
Just as the terms are regional in nature, so too the definitions of these
things vary regionally. I grew up in New York, the home of the "hero",
and I do not believe that a hero is entirely the same thing as, say, a
"sub" or "grinder" or "hoagie", let alone a "po'boy". But no doubt all
these things, while different, are closely related.
> When referring to the sandwich, the plural of 'hero' is 'heros'
> instead of 'heroes'?
Note that it's not at all clear that a hero (the food) *is* a sandwich,
but as for the pluralization, I think both are acceptable. Check a
dictionary.
--
Stewart Gargis
"parker" <par...@midoftheroad.com> wrote in message
news:jopv70tc356e5o38v...@4ax.com...
Just occurred to me that the etymology might be from the Greek "gyros,"
since so many lunch counters are run by Greek immigrants. Any thoughts?
Areff
>
> "parker" <par...@midoftheroad.com> wrote in message
> news:jopv70tc356e5o38v...@4ax.com...
>> Although the m-w dictionary says so, I still would like to check with
>> you guys since it's so interesting.
>>
>> Is a hero the same as a submarine? Is it also called by these names:
>> grinder, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo?
> since so many lunch counters are run by Greek immigrants. Any thoughts?
Any thoughts? Yes, I have some thoughts. For Freck's sake, every year we
get someone who makes this ridiculous and offensive Brysonesque assertion.
Check the Google Groups archives. In particular, I recall that Lars Eighner
provided an effective response demolishing this absurd notion several
years ago.
The "hero" was invented by Italian-Americans, not Greek-Americans. The
gyro, which was historically pronounced /dZaIroU/ in the region in which
the hero was invented (the New York region), is nothing like a hero.
Moreover, the domination of lunch counter places by Greek immigrants was
not too noticeable back in the '50s when the hero was invented. Greek
immigration to the US really didn't get going till the '60s. My parents
grew up in Astoria, Queens, so this is something I know from. In the '50s
Astoria was still a German-Irish neighborhood. My mother's 1952 high
school yearbook has one or two Greek-surnamed students out of a class of
hundreds. By the end of the '60s Astoria had the largest Greek community
outside of Athens. (The changes in US immigration law that made this
possible didn't occur till the Johnson administration, IINM.) By the time
Greeks were arriving in large numbers the hero was already a staple of
New York cuisine.
Certainly Greek-Americans have appropriated certain food items developed
by other ethnic groups; for example, many of the worst pizzerias in New
York are Greek-American establishments (NTTAWWT, but I think their removal
from directly being part of the pizza tradition is one reason why the
pizza in such places is no good). Similarly, there are places run by
Greek immigrants where you can get a hero. And, BTW, Greek places are
excellent if what you want is a hamburger or a nize Reuben sandwich or the
like. I wouldn't want a hero from a Greek place, much as I wouldn't want
pizza, but the moussaka's probably going to be decent. Also, nothing's
better than a nize cup of coffee in one of those cups with the Greek
temple design thing and the pseudo-Hellenic lettering.
No one seems to know *why* heros were named heros, but I think one
possibility that's been suggested is that the 'sandwich' is of heroic
Herculean size (note: not "Heraklean"), or is fit for consumption by a
hungry War hero, of which there were many back in the early '50s.
--
Default User
> Yes. These are all local names for essentially the same thing:
> a sandwich with numerous ingredients on a baguette-shaped soft
> bun. There is some local variation in the expectation of what
> the ingredients will be.
They don't have to feature soft bread. Some of the Italian delis here
produce the sandwiches on half loaves of the crusty Italian bread.
Brian Rodenborn
Areff
Indeed, I think such is the traditional approach for the traditional hero.
I'm glad to see St. Louis is following the correct path.
--
Ben Zimmer
>
> No one seems to know *why* heros were named heros, but I think one
> possibility that's been suggested is that the 'sandwich' is of heroic
> Herculean size (note: not "Heraklean"), or is fit for consumption by a
> hungry War hero, of which there were many back in the early '50s.
The former explanation seems to have more historical backing. As I
pointed out last time this came up, there's a New York Times article
from May 30, 1957 with the headline, "Ave Heroes! The Sandwich of
Valiant Proportions May Be Bought or Home-Assembled." Though the
article says that the origins of the hero sandwich are murky, it gives
priority to Manganaro's, an Italian grocery and sandwich store at 492
Ninth Ave. near 37th St. The Manganaros had been selling jumbo-sized
sandwiches since 1905 (though they called them "hero-boys").
Michael Nitabach
news:c5pa19$4ds1l$1...@ID-201366.news.uni-berlin.de:
Philly hoagies require crusty Italian bread and cannot be made on any
sort of bun.
"Gimmee half an Italian!" == "Please supply me with a longitudinally-
sliced half loaf of crusty--but not hard--Italian bread piled with
capicola, salami, pepperoni, and provolone, and topped with shredded
lettuce, sliced tomato, sliced onion, oil, vinegar, and dried
oregano."
--
Mike Nitabach
Areff
> there's a New York Times article
> from May 30, 1957 with the headline, "Ave Heroes! The Sandwich of
> Valiant Proportions May Be Bought or Home-Assembled." Though the
> article says that the origins of the hero sandwich are murky, it gives
> priority to Manganaro's, an Italian grocery and sandwich store at 492
> Ninth Ave. near 37th St. The Manganaros had been selling jumbo-sized
> sandwiches since 1905 (though they called them "hero-boys").
I found an April 3, 1956 Times article that refers to the Hero Boy
Restaurant at that address, "a new undertaking of Manganaro's, the
grocery emporium for Italian foods of all kinds next door, at 488 Ninth
Avenue".
Overalled customers from near-by vegetable stands wait in line with gray
flannel-suiters to order the jaw-breaking sandwiches that are the
specialty of the house.
[...] The hero sandwich is an anomaly of Italian-American origin. The
only requisite is that the brad be one of those long Italian or French
loaves that can be split horizontally. What goes into the sandwich is
up to you.
At the new cafeteria-style restaurant, the sandwich may contain just one
ingredient, as mortadella or Italian bologna, salami, liverwurst,
provolone cheese or anchovies (all 35 cents each). Or, better, try one
of the hot sandwich ingredients such as sausage and pepper (65 cents), meat
balls and sauce (50 cents) or veal cutlet (55 cents).
My own New York dialectal intuition is that "hero" is an especially
appropriate term when the contents are "hot". Also, Italian-Americans in
New York were probably eating sausage-and-peppers sandwiches formed
with Italian bread before "hero" became a generally-known term, but I
suppose Manganaro's might have popularized the idea among the local
Italian-American communities. I don't know much about Manganaro's, but
that neighborhood of Manhattan was long a major food center for Italian
immigrants and their children from the entire metropolitan region
(especially for Italian immigrants in the more outlying regions who had
no good local sources for food).
I know that Subway has what they call meatball subs, but the "hot"
heros are the sort of "hero" that I'd generally expect *not* to find any
analogue in the "subs" or "grinders" or "hoagies" of other regions,
though I'm possibly wrong about that. Coop, you ever
order a sausage-and-peppers sub for lunch? (I remember ordering a
meatball sub from Subway once, but it was cold or lukewarm, and for some
reason they put mozzarella cheese in it.)
--
Michael Nitabach
news:c5p49f$4a9pj$2...@ID-201366.news.uni-berlin.de:
> parker wrote:
>> Although the m-w dictionary says so, I still would like to check
>> with
> you guys since it's so interesting.
>>
>> Is a hero the same as a submarine? Is it also called by these
>> names: grinder, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo?
>
> These various terms are regional in nature, with the exception of
> "sub", which seems to be getting close to being a GenAm national
> sort of word, thanks in part to the success of those fast food sub
> chains that Coop likes so much. I think of "sub" as a New England
> coastal name. (The Subway chain started out in Connecticut IINM.)
>
> Just as the terms are regional in nature, so too the definitions
> of these things vary regionally. I grew up in New York, the home
> of the "hero", and I do not believe that a hero is entirely the
> same thing as, say, a "sub" or "grinder" or "hoagie", let alone a
> "po'boy". But no doubt all these things, while different, are
> closely related.
An interesting and tasty variant is the New Orleans "muffaletta":
"muffuletta; muffaletta
[muhf-fuh-LEHT-tuh]
A specialty of New Orleans, this HERO-style sandwich originated in
1906 at the Central Grocery, which many think still makes the best
muffuletta in Louisiana. The sandwich consists of a round loaf of
crusty Italian bread, split and filled with layers of sliced
PROVOLONE, Genoa SALAMI and ham topped with "olive salad," a chopped
mixture of green, unstuffed olives, PIMIENTOS, celery, garlic,
cocktail onions, CAPERS, oregano, parsley, olive oil, red-wine
vinegar, salt and pepper. The olive salad is what sets the muffuletta
apart from any other sandwich of its ilk."
http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=2831
Just to clarify, the "round loaf of crusty Italian bread" has the
shape of a large hamburger bun and is split along the same axis. Once
the muffaletta is complete, it is usually sliced into quarters.
>> When referring to the sandwich, the plural of 'hero' is 'heros'
>> instead of 'heroes'?
>
> Note that it's not at all clear that a hero (the food) *is* a
> sandwich, but as for the pluralization, I think both are
> acceptable. Check a dictionary.
I would have no problem referring to any of these as sandwiches, and
I have frequently heard the term "submarine sandwich" used in
Northern New Jersey. In fact, there was a shop in my home town called
"Oscar's Sandwich Barn" (pronounced "Oscar's Sangwich Barn") that
specialized in subs.
--
Mike Nitabach
Lars Eighner
<c5p4aq$i0o$1...@news.netins.net>,
the lovely and talented Stewart Gargis
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
This one has been thoroughly hashed out. "Hero" occurs before
"gyros."
Lars Eighner
<40801E25...@boeing.com.invalid>,
the lovely and talented Default User
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Lars Eighner wrote:
Well, what I am trying to say here is that the loaves are
baguette-shaped but are not baguettes.
Michael Nitabach
news:c5pe53$4c9q5$1...@ID-201366.news.uni-berlin.de:
In Philly, a "cheese-steak hoagie" is a cheese-steak with shredded
lettuce, sliced tomato, sliced onion, oil, vinegar, and dried oregano
on top.
--
Mike Nitabach
david56
> In our last episode,
> <c5p4aq$i0o$1...@news.netins.net>,
> the lovely and talented Stewart Gargis
> broadcast on alt.usage.english:
>
> > "parker" <par...@midoftheroad.com> wrote in message
> > news:jopv70tc356e5o38v...@4ax.com...
> >> Although the m-w dictionary says so, I still would like to check with
> >> you guys since it's so interesting.
> >>
> >> Is a hero the same as a submarine? Is it also called by these names:
> >> grinder, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo?
> >>
> >> When referring to the sandwich, the plural of 'hero' is 'heros'
> >> instead of 'heroes'?
>
> > Just occurred to me that the etymology might be from the Greek "gyros,"
> > since so many lunch counters are run by Greek immigrants. Any thoughts?
>
> This one has been thoroughly hashed out. "Hero" occurs before
> "gyros."
I must have missed the previous hashing. I accept that there is no
relationship between Hero and Gyro. However, I have personally
bought and eaten a kebab in Crete which was cooked on a vertically
rotating spit, just like our UK "doner kebab", and which was
pronounced very much like "hero" by the Greek restaurant owner. My
Greek is very limited, but I can read the script - it was written
"gyro". (All this is 20 year old memory).
Are you saying that the Greek name for meat cooked on a rotating spit
got its name later than the US "Hero"? Or that the food was
introduced later?
--
David
=====
Stewart Gargis
"Areff" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:c5p6cf$4behh$1...@ID-201366.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Stewart Gargis wrote:
> >
> > "parker" <par...@midoftheroad.com> wrote in message
> > news:jopv70tc356e5o38v...@4ax.com...
> >> Although the m-w dictionary says so, I still would like to check with
> >> you guys since it's so interesting.
> >>
> >> Is a hero the same as a submarine? Is it also called by these names:
> >> grinder, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo?
> [...]
> > Just occurred to me that the etymology might be from the Greek "gyros,"
> > since so many lunch counters are run by Greek immigrants. Any thoughts?
>
> Any thoughts? Yes, I have some thoughts. For Freck's sake, every year we
> get someone who makes this ridiculous and offensive Brysonesque assertion.
> Check the Google Groups archives. In particular, I recall that Lars
Eighner
> provided an effective response demolishing this absurd notion several
> years ago.
>
I'll take mine flame-broiled.
John Varela
> The "hero" was invented by Italian-Americans, not Greek-Americans.
We've been around this bush before.
The po-boy, which elsewhere in this thread in equated with the hero, differs
in significant ways. In the first place, a proper po-boy is on crusty French,
not Italian bread (although a lot of places in New Orleans no longer have the
right kind of bread). And the fillings differ. There's no such thing as a
cold cut po-boy. You can get an oyster po-boy, but I doubt you'll encounter
an oyster hero (ICBWAT).
Compare the menu at http://www.acmeoyster.com/menu2.html with the menu of any
sub or hero shop. (A "loaf" is just an oversized po-boy.)
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much.
Areff
> An interesting and tasty variant is the New Orleans "muffaletta":
>
> "muffuletta; muffaletta
> [muhf-fuh-LEHT-tuh]
> A specialty of New Orleans, this HERO-style sandwich originated in
> 1906 at the Central Grocery, which many think still makes the best
> muffuletta in Louisiana. The sandwich consists of a round loaf of
> crusty Italian bread, split and filled with layers of sliced
> PROVOLONE, Genoa SALAMI and ham topped with "olive salad," a chopped
> mixture of green, unstuffed olives, PIMIENTOS, celery, garlic,
> cocktail onions, CAPERS, oregano, parsley, olive oil, red-wine
> vinegar, salt and pepper. The olive salad is what sets the muffuletta
> apart from any other sandwich of its ilk."
>
> http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=2831
Let's not suppose, though, that olive salad itself is particularly
associated with New Orleans. What's weird is putting it in a sandwich (or
the like). True olive salad is readily available in, for example,
Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in America). Their olive salad seems to be
oddly lacking certain important ingredients.
--
Areff
> I must have missed the previous hashing. I accept that there is no
> relationship between Hero and Gyro. However, I have personally
> bought and eaten a kebab in Crete which was cooked on a vertically
> rotating spit, just like our UK "doner kebab", and which was
> pronounced very much like "hero" by the Greek restaurant owner. My
> Greek is very limited, but I can read the script - it was written
> "gyro". (All this is 20 year old memory).
>
> Are you saying that the Greek name for meat cooked on a rotating spit
> got its name later than the US "Hero"? Or that the food was
> introduced later?
I think it's entirely possible that the Greek "gyro" comes from, or was
influenced by, the American English "hero", though it doesn't seem *too*
likely. That the food was introduced later seems basically certain. The
reverse is impossible based on history alone.
One thing that's dead clear is that in the US the "gyro" was introduced
long after the hero had been popularized. Another thing that's clear is
that the pronunciation of "gyro" was, in many places, including New York
(home of heros), anglicized, including by Greek-Americans themselves, as
/dZaIroU/ (like "gyroscope"). I recall an earlier discussion in which
Kirsh stated that during his Chicago childhood they were pronounced
"yeeros" or whatever, but that's neither here nor there, since Chicago
played no part whatsoever in the development of heros. In fact, Chicagoan
Murray Arnow pointed out that submarine sandwiches have only recently been
introduced to Chicago. And I haven't seen the word "hero" used at all
here -- "sub" seems to be the term.
Note that Greeks have been a more influential ethnic group in the US than
Turks, unlike, I gather, the situation in the UK. "Doner kebabs" are not
well known by that name.
In any event, I don't even see where there's even a remote similarity
between a gyro (or a doner kebab) and a hero/sub/grinder/hoagie. One
thing that is dead uncommon in the US is lamb as a filling for a submarine
sandwich. You think Coop orders a "lamb sub" over at Subway in
between his visits to Drs. Riviera and Hibbert? Moreover, gyros are not
much closer to the notion of sandwich than, say, a burrito. This is the
great logical flaw in the "yeero" myth. If gyros actually looked like
submarine sandwiches the theory might deserve some bit of examination.
--
Areff
> The po-boy, which elsewhere in this thread in equated with the hero, differs
> in significant ways. In the first place, a proper po-boy is on crusty French,
> not Italian bread (although a lot of places in New Orleans no longer have the
> right kind of bread). And the fillings differ. There's no such thing as a
> cold cut po-boy. You can get an oyster po-boy, but I doubt you'll encounter
> an oyster hero (ICBWAT).
I think you're probably right about that, not that there's anything wrong
notionally (to me) with an oyster hero.
One thing that I find curious, and this could just be a coincidence, is
that "heros" were, assuming the Manganaro's theory is true, originally
called "hero boys". Why the use of "boy" in this case as well as "po'boy"
down New Orleans way? With "po'boy" it makes more sense -- I assume the
idea is "this is a nourishing but inexpensive meal, the sort that might
appeal to a boy who's po'". Granted, the two things are significantly
different. Freck knows that a Connecticut "grinder", let alone an Upstate
"hoagie", is not quite the same as a "hero".
Colonel, were po'boys eaten, and called by that name, back in your
childhood? Or are they a more recent introduction?
--
Michael Nitabach
news:c5pjca$3hk4h$2...@ID-201366.news.uni-berlin.de:
> Michael Nitabach wrote:
>> An interesting and tasty variant is the New Orleans "muffaletta":
>>
>> "muffuletta; muffaletta
>> [muhf-fuh-LEHT-tuh]
>> A specialty of New Orleans, this HERO-style sandwich originated
>> in 1906 at the Central Grocery, which many think still makes the
>> best muffuletta in Louisiana. The sandwich consists of a round
>> loaf of crusty Italian bread, split and filled with layers of
>> sliced PROVOLONE, Genoa SALAMI and ham topped with "olive salad,"
>> a chopped mixture of green, unstuffed olives, PIMIENTOS, celery,
>> garlic, cocktail onions, CAPERS, oregano, parsley, olive oil,
>> red-wine vinegar, salt and pepper. The olive salad is what sets
>> the muffuletta apart from any other sandwich of its ilk."
>>
>> http://eat.epicurious.com/dictionary/food/index.ssf?DEF_ID=2831
>
> Let's not suppose, though, that olive salad itself is particularly
> associated with New Orleans.
I would never suppose that.
> What's weird is putting it in a
> sandwich (or the like).
Have you ever had a muffaletta? They are quite tasty.
> True olive salad is readily available in,
> for example, Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in America). Their
> olive salad seems to be oddly lacking certain important
> ingredients.
What are the ingredients of "true olive salad" made in Brooklyn?
--
Mike Nitabach
Areff
Green olives; black olives; celery; cauliflower; carrot wedges (hey, I
didn't invent it); onions; red pepper slices; and preferably those hot
green pepper things that aren't Chicago sport peppers. Take the
subway to Pastosa's -- B train, I think (aka "the West End Line").
--
Evan Kirshenbaum
> I recall an earlier discussion in which Kirsh stated that during his
> Chicago childhood they were pronounced "yeeros" or whatever,
/giroUs/, with a hard /g/. It seems to have become a /j/ recently, as
that's what I hear more often when I visit my parents. My brother-in-
law, from Buffalo, says /dZAIroU/
> but that's neither here nor there, since Chicago played no part
> whatsoever in the development of heros.
Certainly not by that name.
> In fact, Chicagoan Murray Arnow pointed out that submarine
> sandwiches have only recently been introduced to Chicago.
I don't recall seeing them there until the mid '70s at the earliest.
> And I haven't seen the word "hero" used at all here -- "sub" seems
> to be the term.
Right.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |When you're ready to break a rule,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you _know_ that you're ready; you
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |don't need anyone else to tell
|you. (If you're not that certain,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |then you're _not_ ready.)
(650)857-7572 | Tom Phoenix
Areff
"sandwich" - oy!) is a Sept. 4, 1971 New York Times article ("The Gyro, a
Greek Sandwich, Selling Like Hot Dogs"). This is also the earliest thing
I can find in ProQuest.
In this article it is said:
The sandwich, a Greek gyro, pronounced "year-oh" is a lamb, tomato and
onion concoction nestled in a fold of a soft bread called pita.
The article goes on to say that:
The increase in the snack's popularity may be related to the large
number of Americans who visit Greece and sample the local cuisine. The
Greek National Tourist Board reported that more than 300,000 Americans
visited the country last year, up 54 per cent over the previous year.
Recent changes in the government's quotas for immigrants from
Mediterranean countries have permitted more Greeks to come to the United
States. The Greek-American community in New York City totals nearly
200,000 and is growing by 3,500 new immigrants each year ...
The article mentions "doner kebab" as a synonym, but as we know that never
caught on in the US.
The gyro must have been too new to have developed the /dZaIroU/
pronunciation yet, which is interesting, since, I claim, by 1976 /dZaIroU/
must have been the standard New York pronunciation, whatever the situation
may have been in other cities.
--
Raymond S. Wise
news:MPG.1aea565ce...@news.individual.net...
I am amazed to find that MWCD11 dates the word "gyro" in the sense of the
sandwich to 1971. That is the very year I was introduced to them, when I was
a freshman at Georgetown University in Washington, DC.
The pronunciations given also surprised me: /'jiroU/ and /'ZIroU/. The
first one is close to, but not identical, to the pronunciation I have most
often heard for the word, /'jIroU/[1], which rhymes with "hero." I have
never encountered the /'ZIroU/ pronunciation (which also rhymes with
"hero"), but /'dZaIroU/[1], a pronunciation mentioned by Areff, is also one
I heard in Washington, and here in Minneapolis. I've also heard
/'jIroUs/[1], another pronunciation mentioned by Areff as having been
reported to be a Chicago pronunciation, and I cannot say whether I first
heard that pronunciation in Washington or here.
Note:
[1] Pronunciations marked with this are ones I have used at one time or
another. I generally use the pronunciation /'jIroU/ nowadays.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Raymond S. Wise
news:3c73wo...@hpl.hp.com...
> Areff <m...@privacy.net> writes:
>
> > I recall an earlier discussion in which Kirsh stated that during his
> > Chicago childhood they were pronounced "yeeros" or whatever,
>
> /giroUs/, with a hard /g/. It seems to have become a /j/ recently, as
> that's what I hear more often when I visit my parents. My brother-in-
> law, from Buffalo, says /dZAIroU/
>
> > but that's neither here nor there, since Chicago played no part
> > whatsoever in the development of heros.
>
> Certainly not by that name.
>
> > In fact, Chicagoan Murray Arnow pointed out that submarine
> > sandwiches have only recently been introduced to Chicago.
>
> I don't recall seeing them there until the mid '70s at the earliest.
I was not only introduced to gyros when I was a freshman at Georgetown
University in Washington, DC in 1971, but I was also introduced to the
submarine sandwich, by way of the Blimpie sandwich shop chain. When I came
home to Central Illinois during a school break I introduced my family to
them by buying ingredients at the supermarket and making the sandwiches at
home. The ingredients weren't quite the same, but the results were good
enough to make a favorable impression.
>
> > And I haven't seen the word "hero" used at all here -- "sub" seems
> > to be the term.
>
> Right.
--
John Varela
> Colonel, were po'boys eaten, and called by that name, back in your
> childhood? Or are they a more recent introduction?
I was never more than a Second Lieutenant.
Yes, they had been around for decades, and were then more often called "poor
boys", if I recall correctly.
This history of po-boys is provided at
http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/HoagieSubmarinePoBoy.htm
which also tells the Hog Island story of the origin of the hoagie, among
others, and traces the sub to Paterson, NJ in 1927.
"(1) According to some accounts, this sandwich was created by a Mme. Begue,
owner of a coffee stall in New Orleans' Old French Market in 1895. She took a
long, thin loaf of French bread, slit it in half lengthwise, buttered it
generously, sliced it in thirds or fourths (not cutting through the bottom
crust) and put a different fillling into each section The name is said to
derive from the pleas of hungry black youths who begged, "Please give a
sandwich to a po' boy."
"(2) Another predecessor was the Peacemaker Sandwich, a loaf of French bread,
split and buttered and filled with fried oysters. The poetic name derives from
the fact that 19th-century husbands, coming in late from a carouse or spree,
would carry one home to cushion a possible rough reception from the lady of
the house.
"(3) The generally excepted history is that the Po' Boy sandwich was invented
by two brothers, Clovis and Benjamin Martin, in 1929 at their restaurant in
the French Market. It is said, true or not, that this sandwich extravaganza
began during a local transit worker's strike. The two brothers took pity on
those "poor boys" and began offering sandwiches made from leftovers to any
workers who came to their restaurant's back door at the end of the day. For
five cents, a striker could buy a sandwich filled with gravy and trimmings
(end pieces from beef roasts) or gravy and sliced potatoes."
John Varela
> I think it's entirely possible that the Greek "gyro" comes from, or was
> influenced by, the American English "hero", though it doesn't seem *too*
> likely. That the food was introduced later seems basically certain. The
> reverse is impossible based on history alone.
Introduced later to the US, perhaps, but almost certainly much older than the
hero. I say this based on the fact that essentially the same
meat-on-a-vertical-spit dish is made in both Greece and Turkey, and those
countries have hardly spoken to one another for 180 years.
According to www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAEgreece.htm there were 300,000
Greeks in the US at the time of World War I.
http://chnm.gmu.edu/greekam/timeline.html also gives a chronology of Greek
immigration starting in the 1890s.
It seems likely that the Greeks brought the gyro with them when they came.
I disagree with you when you say that gyro served on a rolled-up pita is not a
sandwich, but I agree with you that it doesn't look much like a hero, and fhat
the gyro meat is unlike any hero/sub/po-boy/hoagie filling known to man.
Well, maybe there's a faint, very faint, resemblance to the filling of a
Philly steak sandwich.
John Varela
> Let's not suppose, though, that olive salad itself is particularly
> associated with New Orleans. What's weird is putting it in a sandwich (or
> the like). True olive salad is readily available in, for example,
> Brooklyn (Fourth Largest City in America). Their olive salad seems to be
> oddly lacking certain important ingredients.
There's that New York provincialism at work again. "If it's not done the way
they do it in New York then it's not correct."
Ben Zimmer
>
> Ben Zimmer wrote:
> > there's a New York Times article
> > from May 30, 1957 with the headline, "Ave Heroes! The Sandwich of
> > Valiant Proportions May Be Bought or Home-Assembled." Though the
> > article says that the origins of the hero sandwich are murky, it gives
> > priority to Manganaro's, an Italian grocery and sandwich store at 492
> > Ninth Ave. near 37th St. The Manganaros had been selling jumbo-sized
> > sandwiches since 1905 (though they called them "hero-boys").
>
> I found an April 3, 1956 Times article that refers to the Hero Boy
> Restaurant at that address, "a new undertaking of Manganaro's, the
> grocery emporium for Italian foods of all kinds next door, at 488 Ninth
> Avenue".
> My own New York dialectal intuition is that "hero" is an especially
> appropriate term when the contents are "hot". Also, Italian-Americans in
> New York were probably eating sausage-and-peppers sandwiches formed
> with Italian bread before "hero" became a generally-known term, but I
> suppose Manganaro's might have popularized the idea among the local
> Italian-American communities. I don't know much about Manganaro's, but
> that neighborhood of Manhattan was long a major food center for Italian
> immigrants and their children from the entire metropolitan region
> (especially for Italian immigrants in the more outlying regions who had
> no good local sources for food).
Some more historical background, from the New York Times...
----------
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/15/dining/15HERO.html?ex=1082260800&en=77dbdc3f69446949&ei=5070
Hey, Po' Boy, Meet Some Real Heroes
By ED LEVINE
Published: October 15, 2003
In 1936, Clementine Paddleford, the legendary food writer on The New
York Herald Tribune, unwittingly named the sandwich, saying, "You'd have
to be a hero to finish one." [...]
Howard Robboy, a sociologist who is the co-author of two scholarly
papers on the subject, says that the hero, then called an Italian
sandwich, was first made in New York in the late 19th century, on the
premises of Petrucci's Wines and Brandies at 488 Ninth Avenue near 37th
Street. The site is now Manganaro Foods, which still serves O.K. heroes.
The Italian sandwich was mainly served, Mr. Robboy said, to southern
Italian manual laborers who wanted a taste of home — a big one. And from
this humble Hell's Kitchen start, the sandwich traveled to other Italian
neighborhoods throughout the city: Greenwich Village and Little Italy in
lower Manhattan; Carroll Gardens, Red Hook, north Williamsburg and
Bensonhurst in Brooklyn; Astoria and Corona Heights in Queens; Belmont
and Morris Park in the Bronx; wherever Italian cheeses, breads or pork
products were sold.
----------
Ben Zimmer
Perhaps the Manganaros were Byron fans:
I canter by the spot each afternoon
Where perish'd in his fame the hero-boy,
Who lived too long for men, but died too soon
For human vanity, the young De Foix!
--Don Juan, Canto 4, verse 103
Areff
> On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 21:42:25 UTC, Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> I think it's entirely possible that the Greek "gyro" comes from, or was
>> influenced by, the American English "hero", though it doesn't seem *too*
>> likely. That the food was introduced later seems basically certain. The
>> reverse is impossible based on history alone.
>
> Introduced later to the US, perhaps, but almost certainly much older than the
> hero. I say this based on the fact that essentially the same
> meat-on-a-vertical-spit dish is made in both Greece and Turkey, and those
> countries have hardly spoken to one another for 180 years.
Oh, I'm sure the gyro/"doner kebab" is centuries, maybe thousands of
years, old. What I was suggesting was that the name _gyro_ just might
have been an imitation of AmE "hero". It all depends on whether the term
"gyro" is used in Greece, and was so used before it was imported to
Lamerica.
I can see how Greeks might want to rename doner kebabs using something
nize and non-Turkish-sounding.
> According to www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAEgreece.htm there were 300,000
> Greeks in the US at the time of World War I.
>
> http://chnm.gmu.edu/greekam/timeline.html also gives a chronology of Greek
> immigration starting in the 1890s.
>
> It seems likely that the Greeks brought the gyro with them when they came.
I dunno. The gyro doesn't seem to have made a dent on the public AmE
consciousness until the late 'Sixties, precisely the time when Greek
immigration to the US started really taking off. Sure, it's possible that
Greek-Americans were quietly eating gyros for years before that.
--
Areff
>
> Some more historical background, from the New York Times...
>
> ----------
> http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/15/dining/15HERO.html?ex=1082260800&en=77dbdc3f69446949&ei=5070
>
> Hey, Po' Boy, Meet Some Real Heroes
> By ED LEVINE
> Published: October 15, 2003
> Italian manual laborers who wanted a taste of home — a big one. And from
> this humble Hell's Kitchen start, the sandwich traveled to other Italian
> neighborhoods throughout the city: Greenwich Village and Little Italy in
> lower Manhattan; Carroll Gardens, Red Hook, north Williamsburg and
> Bensonhurst in Brooklyn;
Oy! There was no "Carroll Gardens" back then -- just "Red Hook"!
--
Areff
L.A. Times, June 27, 1943:
A favorite hot sandwich for an outdoor fling, high in food value and low
in ration points, is the picnic submarine. Made of juicy barbecued meat,
the entire filling is prepared at home and kept hot in the pot, carefully
wrapped in newspapers until time for serving. Place between split
frankfurt buns to make submarines, and serve with a macaroni-cabbage
slaw, carbonated beverages or cold milk and jelly filled cakes. The
preparations are simple, the equipment nominal.
Not quite the "sub" of later (?) years, but the common idea there is the
visual similarity of the sandwich to a submarine, due to the use of
"frankfurt buns" or the like. The way this article is written, it almost
sounds like "submarine" was a known style of making sandwiches (one where
you'd use buns "to make submarines").
I'm also reminded of something Kirsh said about how up there in the
Peninsula the hot dogs are all wrong because people use hard rolls rather
than normative frankfurter rolls. Maybe this has long been the
Californian way wrt hot dogs.
I found an article by Clementine Paddleford, whom I believe Zimms
mentioned, in the August 7, 1949 L.A. Times, describing "subs" in
Rehoboth Beach, Delaware.
It's a monster contraption, the double submarine that nosed into sight
along the East Coast late in the war.
She states that "long, soft finger rolls" were the proper sort of bread to
use, with "French flute bread" or "long Italian hard rolls" as a
substitute. The ingredients of the sub are:
three thin slices of pressed ham -- arranged overlapping, two thin
slices provoloni [sic] cheese, four crisp leaves of lettuce, four half
slices of tomato. Sprinkle with thyme, celery seed and salt; drizzle
over olive oil. Add a medium-sized onion cut into thin rings; overlay
with four one-half-inch-thick slices of dill pickle and a few sliver
slices of hot pickled peppers -- to set a fire in the mouth.
New York Times, August 21, 1950:
Speaking of the Italian cuisine brings us to incidental intelligence
from our good friend, Paul A. Schack, grocery buyer at Macy's. He
writes that those mammoth Italian-style sandwiches referred to recently
here as "grinders" also are known as "submarines".
"The exact definition," Mr. Schack says, "is a sandwich prepared on a
loaf of submarine-shaped Italian bread that has been split lengthwise.
--
Charles Riggs
>Default User wrote:
>> Lars Eighner wrote:
>>
>>> Yes. These are all local names for essentially the same thing:
>>> a sandwich with numerous ingredients on a baguette-shaped soft
>>> bun. There is some local variation in the expectation of what
>>> the ingredients will be.
>>
>>
>> They don't have to feature soft bread. Some of the Italian delis here
>> produce the sandwiches on half loaves of the crusty Italian bread.
>
>Indeed, I think such is the traditional approach for the traditional hero.
>I'm glad to see St. Louis is following the correct path.
Seeing that some Americans have slipped into calling hot dog rolls hot
dog buns, do the same ones, I wonder, call submarine rolls submarine
buns? Even sadder, AmE, if so.
--
Charles Riggs
My email address: chriggs/at/eircom/dot/net
Raymond S. Wise
news:v7f180ppjrfqhikci...@4ax.com...
A submarine sandwich is prepared using a loaf of bread. It is neither a roll
nor a bun. I'd say "Italian bread," and the shape is indeed that of Italian
bread, but at Subway sandwich shops, for example, "Italian" is used to
signify white as opposed to wheat bread.
Ben Zimmer
>
> OED scooped bwo ProQuest for "submarine" (sandwich):
>
> L.A. Times, June 27, 1943:
>
> A favorite hot sandwich for an outdoor fling, high in food value and low
> in ration points, is the picnic submarine. Made of juicy barbecued meat,
> the entire filling is prepared at home and kept hot in the pot, carefully
> wrapped in newspapers until time for serving. Place between split
> frankfurt buns to make submarines, and serve with a macaroni-cabbage
> slaw, carbonated beverages or cold milk and jelly filled cakes. The
> preparations are simple, the equipment nominal.
>
> Not quite the "sub" of later (?) years, but the common idea there is the
> visual similarity of the sandwich to a submarine, due to the use of
> "frankfurt buns" or the like. The way this article is written, it almost
> sounds like "submarine" was a known style of making sandwiches (one where
> you'd use buns "to make submarines").
I still like the explanation given in the article linked upthread by
John Varela [1], which claims that Dominic Conti of Paterson, NJ began
calling his grocery store's long sandwiches "submarines" in 1927 after
seeing the salvaged hull of the Holland I, the first modern submarine
(scuttled in the Upper Passaic River in 1878) [2]. This story is told
by food historian Linda Stradley in her book _I'll Have What They're
Having: Legendary Local Cuisine_, based on the reminiscences of Conti's
granddaughter, who said that "people came from miles around" to buy
Conti's subs. (No mention of this in the New York Times archives-- some
local newspaper research would probably be necessary to verify this.)
[1] http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/HoagieSubmarinePoBoy.htm
[2] http://www.geocities.com/gwmccue/Submarines/Holland_1.html
david56
> John Varela wrote:
> > On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 21:42:25 UTC, Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> I think it's entirely possible that the Greek "gyro" comes from, or was
> >> influenced by, the American English "hero", though it doesn't seem *too*
> >> likely. That the food was introduced later seems basically certain. The
> >> reverse is impossible based on history alone.
> >
> > Introduced later to the US, perhaps, but almost certainly much older than the
> > hero. I say this based on the fact that essentially the same
> > meat-on-a-vertical-spit dish is made in both Greece and Turkey, and those
> > countries have hardly spoken to one another for 180 years.
>
> Oh, I'm sure the gyro/"doner kebab" is centuries, maybe thousands of
> years, old. What I was suggesting was that the name _gyro_ just might
> have been an imitation of AmE "hero". It all depends on whether the term
> "gyro" is used in Greece,
Yes, as I mentioned earlier.
> and was so used before it was imported to Lamerica.
That, I can't say. I saw it in 1984. But I'd be astonished if not -
the spit rotates, so it's a gyro. A Greek term for a Greek food.
I'm surprised that anybody is bothering with this line.
--
David
=====
Spehro Pefhany
Vietnamese subs (banh mi) are prepared on crusty French bread that can
only be called a baguette.
http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/2004-01-08/goods_foodfeature.php
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Maria Conlon
>
> Seeing that some Americans have slipped into calling hot dog rolls
hot
> dog buns, do the same ones, I wonder, call submarine rolls
submarine
> buns? Even sadder, AmE, if so.
You know the language laws, Charles. If the people call it a bun,
it's a bun.
I don't think "egg rolls" will ever be called "egg buns," though.
Maria Conlon
Mike Lyle
Except that we have a katharevousa/demotike problem: I rate it a
Turkish food, not a Greek one. And perhaps you even remember when it
was eatable: at first (1970??) the conical meat thing was made of
slices of genuine lamb or maybe mutton, and duly delicious, while now
it is some sort of reconstituted sheep-style sausagey godawfulness
which you can ingest only if you've had the forethought to ask them
for several chillies.
(They should certainly be given back the Parthenon marbles, of course;
though I suspect that this time round the Turks might actually look
after them more efficiently.)
Mike.
The Grammer Genious
> Seeing that some Americans have slipped into calling hot dog rolls hot
> dog buns, <...>
*ALL* the Americans who speak standard American English slipped
into doing that before you and I were born, before the "hot dog
rolls" nonsense was invented.
The only place I have ever encountered "hot dog rolls" is in the
printing on the package. The toothpaste tube says "dentifrice" on
it, too. Any normal person who uses that kind of marketing
language is in the thrall of the marketers.
\\P. Schultz
david56
Actually, the foodstuff we got in Crete was made from thin flat
layers of pork threaded onto the skewer, so when it was cut you got
slivers of real meat. Served in a sort of flat fried bread more like
a nan than pitta. Delicious.
--
David
=====
Charles Riggs
I thought about my 'submarine rolls' of yesterday before reading AUE
this morning. I agree that 'rolls' doesn't fit exactly. I'm not sure
what word does.
I'm happy, at least, you don't call them 'buns'. 'Hot dog buns',
indeed. What's the world coming to?
Charles Riggs
I often make a sub using a baguette, but baguettes are not essential
to them. Another way, since submarine rolls aren't generally available
here, is to chop off a portion of French bread -- the diametrically
small kind -- and use that. Submarine rolls, even in submarine-loving
America, aren't generally of the best quality anyway. Well, bread
there isn't, in general.
Best countries for bread? India, Turkey, Germany, Ireland, France?
Each is famous for one or several types. America? Fucking Wonder
Bread, at least when I was growing up. Not a whole lot better now, if
the bread of San Diego is representative of the nation's.
Charles Riggs
<mariaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Charles Riggs wrote:
>>
>> Seeing that some Americans have slipped into calling hot dog rolls
>hot
>> dog buns, do the same ones, I wonder, call submarine rolls
>submarine
>> buns? Even sadder, AmE, if so.
>
>You know the language laws, Charles. If the people call it a bun,
>it's a bun.
Half an hour later. Let me try this again -- the electrical power in
all of Castlebar went out when I first tried. So much for that back-up
unit I bought. Nada.
Anyhoo, my question is 'What people?' Just because many of them are
fond of saying 'between you and I' doesn't mean we have to too, wot
wot? Same goes for missaying 'bun', when the proper word is and always
has been 'roll', when referring to what hot dogs are often put inside
of. (*Not* hamburgers, Richard. As a HU grad, I know from burgers.)
Charles Riggs
<schu...@erols.com> wrote:
>Charles Riggs wrote:
>
>> Seeing that some Americans have slipped into calling hot dog rolls hot
>> dog buns, <...>
>
>*ALL* the Americans who speak standard American English slipped
>into doing that before you and I were born, before the "hot dog
>rolls" nonsense was invented.
If they slipped, don't you mean 'reinvented'? 'Rediscovered' proper
English is how I'd put, but chacun à son goût.
>The only place I have ever encountered "hot dog rolls" is in the
>printing on the package. The toothpaste tube says "dentifrice" on
>it, too. Any normal person who uses that kind of marketing
>language is in the thrall of the marketers.
I wholeheartedly agree on that, but hot dog rolls are hot dog rolls,
just the same. Have any Britons weighed in on the question?
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> Best countries for bread? India, Turkey, Germany, Ireland, France?
> Each is famous for one or several types. America? Fucking Wonder
> Bread, at least when I was growing up. Not a whole lot better now, if
> the bread of San Diego is representative of the nation's.
Nothing of San Diego is representative of the nation's. Good thing,
too.
As for bread, there's a bakery within two miles of my residence in
Greater Laurel that makes all sorts of wonderful varieties. (If any
greater Laurelian cares: The Heidelberg on Lee Highway at Culpeper
St. in Arlington.) And plenty more like it around the area. Their
stuff doesn't sell in the volume that Wonder does, but they do all
right.
--
Liebs
Love their German rye with caraway seeds
Spehro Pefhany
It's like beer- the mass produced stuff tends to be dreck, but there
is enough of a market for specialized producers of quality stuff to
flourish. Ace Bakery is such a producer here in Ontario.
A quick search finds this place in San Diego, which, like Ace Bakery,
also distributes through grocery stores:
---
FIG-ANISE BREAD
Bread & Cie, Bakery & Cafe, 350 University
Avenue, Hillcrest, 619-683-9322 Thick and crusty, radiant with
the licorice-sweet scent of anise and the earthy warmth of
crushed wheat flavors, speckled with thick chunks of dark fig,
this rustic country loaf is worth every cent : $4.25 at the
bakery, a little more in grocery stores that carry the line.
Bread & Cie bakes upwards of two dozen different breads seven
days a week in an imported stone-hearth oven, using age-old
artisan bread making techniques - natural starters in some cases
instead of yeast, no added fats or preservatives - in full view
of those who come to buy bread, a sandwich or a sweet. Pick up a
list of their breads while you're there.
---
Areff
> Anyhoo, my question is 'What people?' Just because many of them are
> fond of saying 'between you and I' doesn't mean we have to too, wot
> wot? Same goes for missaying 'bun', when the proper word is and always
> has been 'roll', when referring to what hot dogs are often put inside
> of. (*Not* hamburgers, Richard. As a HU grad, I know from burgers.)
So what makes the hamburger thing a "bun" but the hot dog thing, which is
otherwise quite similar other than in shape, a "roll"? Maybe you are of
the view that a "bun" must be round or circular in shape.
Comments?
--
Mike Lyle
Without looking it up, I'd say that in Right-pondistan for hamburgers
and hot dogs "bun" and "roll" refer to shape. Otherwise there is no
detectable consensus, though in British usage a "bun" has
traditionally been sweet, and there are iced buns which are elongate;
though in some dialects a "bun" may be a small non-yeast cake such as
a fairy cake or madeleine. The only common factor I can find in the
1906 *Beeton* buns is that they are all sweet, and all shaped by hand,
not baked in a mould.
A bun-loaf is a fruit loaf made from the same yeast mixture as what
were once called "penny buns". (And I do just remember British bakers
giving you thirteen penny buns for the price of a dozen, though I
can't be completely sure that I remember that price being a shilling.
There were still old pennies about with the younger Queen Victoria
portrait, and these were aptly called "bun pennies", though from Her
Majesty's hair style rather than from their spending target.)
I distinctly remember a North-country fellow-student calling rolls
"dinner buns".
Usage has changed a bit lately, but the British equivalent of the
hamburger bun is usually called a "bap", though the word isn't in
Beeton's index.
Mike.
Areff
> Usage has changed a bit lately, but the British equivalent of the
> hamburger bun is usually called a "bap", though the word isn't in
> Beeton's index.
I thought a "bap" was more like a baguette. Are baps soft or hard? If
they're hard, they're not like hamburger buns, which are soft.
--
Matti Lamprhey
For me, a bap is a soft roll, roundish and flattish. I would split it,
butter it and fill it with ham and Colman's mustard. But it makes a
reasonable hamburger bun too.
It's nothing like a baguette.
Matti
Duggy
>Is a hero the same as a submarine? Is it also called by these names:
>grinder, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo?
I always call a Chicken Hero tautology.
===
= DUG.
===
Charles Riggs
Don't try to pin me down, Richard, on why certain English words mean
what they do. We'd be here forever, getting nowhere. The accepted term
for that thing hamburgers are often enclosed in, is 'bun', as we've
agreed. I claim, with little support from my fellow Americans (Hi,
LBJ, if you're up there!), that the somewhat similar thing that
surrounds a hot dog sausage is properly called by no other term than
'roll'. Little can be said about why, other than my earlier remarks
about cylindrical shapes. We'd need a survey that took a reasonable
sample of extant English speakers, in the US and elsewhere, to see if
I'm right or wrong. No Briton here has committed him or herself yet,
so I'm still waiting to hear from that corner.
Charles Riggs
wrote:
<more about buns than I needed to know>
Great. Now will you tell us whether British hot dog sausages are
typically enclosed in buns or rolls, thus making them hot dogs?
Buns, rolls: for the majority, it must be the one word or the other,
and curious minds want to know which.
Charles Riggs
<matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>...Colman's mustard.
'Colman's Mustard'
Ross Howard
wrought:
>On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:06:34 +0100, "Matti Lamprhey"
><matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>
>>...Colman's mustard.
>
>'Colman's Mustard'
For the company, sure, but not for the product:
He's an executive at Colman's Mustard.
I like steak rare with lashings of Colman's mustard.
He directed a Volvo Cars commercial.
Volvo cars may be safe but, God, are they boring.
--
Ross Howard
Matti Lamprhey
> mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) wrote:
>
> <more about buns than I needed to know>
>
> Great. Now will you tell us whether British hot dog sausages are
> typically enclosed in buns or rolls, thus making them hot dogs?
>
> Buns, rolls: for the majority, it must be the one word or the other,
> and curious minds want to know which.
The hot dog consists of 'sausage' and roll, together with fried onions
and tomato ketchup.
The scare quotes are required to avoid causing offence to proper
sausages, of course.
Matti
Donna Richoux
"Needless repetition of an idea, statement, or word" -- that sort of
tautology? Are you sure you aren't thinking of oxymoron? (Although Bob
will tell us that's wrong, too.)
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Mike Lyle
> "Charles Riggs" <CHA...@eircom.net> wrote...
> > mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) wrote:
> >
> > <more about buns than I needed to know>
You'll be grateful one day, kid.
> > Great. Now will you tell us whether British hot dog sausages are
> > typically enclosed in buns or rolls, thus making them hot dogs?
Sorry, I thought I'd covered that. It's rolls, as Matti says.
> > Buns, rolls: for the majority, it must be the one word or the other,
> > and curious minds want to know which.
>
> The hot dog consists of 'sausage' and roll, together with fried onions
> and tomato ketchup.
>
> The scare quotes are required to avoid causing offence to proper
> sausages, of course.
For God's sake, Matti! You know better than to even hint at the
definition of "sausage" round here! The Conlon-Lorimer axis has
probably mobilized already.
Mike.
Richard R. Hershberger
> parker wrote:
> > Although the m-w dictionary says so, I still would like to check with
> you guys since it's so interesting.
> >
> > Is a hero the same as a submarine? Is it also called by these names:
> > grinder, hoagie, Italian sandwich, poor boy, sub, torpedo?
>
> which seems to be getting close to being a GenAm national sort of word,
> thanks in part to the success of those fast food sub chains that Coop
> likes so much. I think of "sub" as a New England coastal name. (The
> Subway chain started out in Connecticut IINM.)
>
> Just as the terms are regional in nature, so too the definitions of these
> things vary regionally. I grew up in New York, the home of the "hero",
> and I do not believe that a hero is entirely the same thing as, say, a
> "sub" or "grinder" or "hoagie", let alone a "po'boy". But no doubt all
> these things, while different, are closely related.
And, as I routinely add whenever this discussion arises, in the
Philadelphia region a distinction is sometimes (but by no means
always) made between the cold sandwich invariably called a "hoagie"
and the same sandwich heated up in the pizza oven, often called a
"grinder". I have never seen this distinction made outside of the
Philly area.
Richard R. Hershberger
Mike Lyle
Obviously a generation thing: older folk might call it an oxymoron.
I'm with you, though: better to be a coward for a few hours than dead
for the rest of your life.
Mike.
Charles Riggs
wrote:
OK, but my jar is clearly labeled 'Colman's Mustard', so that is what
I think it is.
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>"Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote in message news:<c60bbj$6cm9q$1...@ID-103223.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>> "Charles Riggs" <CHA...@eircom.net> wrote...
>> > mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) wrote:
>> >
>> > <more about buns than I needed to know>
>
>You'll be grateful one day, kid.
>
>> > Great. Now will you tell us whether British hot dog sausages are
>> > typically enclosed in buns or rolls, thus making them hot dogs?
>
>Sorry, I thought I'd covered that. It's rolls, as Matti says.
Good men, although it appears Matti got mixed up when it came to
ketchup or mustard. Ketchup must never be put on a hot dog, whereas
mustard is required: not Colman's Mustard, but Dijon mustard. American
restaurants often serve them with French's mustard, a piss poor
substitute, as the only option. I agree with his fried onion
recommendation, although they are optional. Mustard is not.
Funny how some Americans, best unnamed, have lost touch with the
correct word, thinking it is 'bun'! Whoa, far out.
Maria Conlon
> For God's sake, Matti! You know better than to even hint at the
> definition of "sausage" round here! The Conlon-Lorimer axis has
> probably mobilized already.
ITYM the Fontana-Conlon Agreement. The Axis probably won't get involved
in this.
Maria Conlon
Co-Founder, A of M.
Maria Conlon
> Funny how some Americans, best unnamed, have lost touch with the
> correct word, thinking it is 'bun'! Whoa, far out.
Funny, too, how some people who have moved to other shores have
forgotten the lingo here.
Can you imagine -- "hot dog roll"?
Me neither.
Maria Conlon
Mustard only (as already said)
Areff
> Charles Riggs wrote:
>
>> Funny how some Americans, best unnamed, have lost touch with the
>> correct word, thinking it is 'bun'! Whoa, far out.
>
> Funny, too, how some people who have moved to other shores have
> forgotten the lingo here.
>
> Can you imagine -- "hot dog roll"?
>
> Me neither.
I can *imagine* it, but I wouldn't expect to hear an alive American say
it. In addition to Bessie Smith, whom I mentioned upthread, I'm reminded
of a _Twilight Zone_ episode where a character keeps reliving a day in his
childhood that had caused him to have various neuroses. In the repeated
sequence, he walks by an old guy who's selling hot dogs, who says to him
"Frank on a roll?". But I'd bet that in the 1950s this would have sounded
old-fashioned -- hence its use in the relived childhood scene, which
probably was supposed to take place in the 1930s or so. "Roll" for (hot
dog) bun is about as archaic-sounding as "frank" for 'hot dog', I'd say.
Maybe a little bit more.
Incidentally, I searched for some images of "baps", the apparent UK
cousin to the AmE roll/bun. Some of them look soft, like hamburger buns;
others look like they have a tougher exterior, like a Kaiser roll or
similar sort of roll.
--
Matti Lamprhey
> >
> >> > Now will you tell us whether British hot dog sausages are
> >> > typically enclosed in buns or rolls, thus making them hot dogs?
> >
> >Sorry, I thought I'd covered that. It's rolls, as Matti says.
>
> Good men, although it appears Matti got mixed up when it came to
> ketchup or mustard. Ketchup must never be put on a hot dog, whereas
> mustard is required: not Colman's Mustard, but Dijon mustard. American
> restaurants often serve them with French's mustard, a piss poor
> substitute, as the only option. I agree with his fried onion
> recommendation, although they are optional. Mustard is not.
Let me explain -- I was DESCRIBING how hot dogs are usually served in
Britain; I was NOT RECOMMENDING anything. I find them almost
completely disgusting.
Matti
Bob Cunningham
[...]
> [...] he walks by an old guy who's
> selling hot dogs, who says to him "Frank on a roll?".
> But I'd bet that in the 1950s this would have sounded
> old-fashioned -- hence its use in the relived childhood
> scene, which probably was supposed to take place in the
> 1930s or so
When I was a kid in the 1930s, I wouldn't have been sure
what "frank on a roll" was supposed to mean, and I would
have been surprised to learn that it referred to a hot dog.
I probably had learned that "frankfurter" was another word
for a wienie, but neither "frankfurter" nor "frank" would
have been in my active vocabulary.
I would have known what a roll was, but I wouldn't have used
that word for the bun you put a wienie on to make a hot dog.
Sara Lorimer
> Mike Lyle wrote:
>
> > For God's sake, Matti! You know better than to even hint at the
> > definition of "sausage" round here! The Conlon-Lorimer axis has
> > probably mobilized already.
>
> ITYM the Fontana-Conlon Agreement.
Oh good. I'd spent the night tossing and turning, confused about my
identity (and posting habits).
--
SML
Dalg! Glidj! Blimlimlim!
http://pirate-women.com
Mike Lyle
> Maria Conlon wrote:
>
> > Mike Lyle wrote:
> >
> > > For God's sake, Matti! You know better than to even hint at the
> > > definition of "sausage" round here! The Conlon-Lorimer axis has
> > > probably mobilized already.
> >
> > ITYM the Fontana-Conlon Agreement.
>
> Oh good. I'd spent the night tossing and turning, confused about my
> identity (and posting habits).
Sorry about the lost sleep: nice to be taken so seriously! I
misremembered you as among the Conlonian tendency on cold cuts and
wursts and saucissons and such salumeria-sourced delicacies. If it's
any consolation, my conscience will ensure that I sleep but fitfully
tonight.
Mike.
Skitt
> Charles Riggs wrote:
>> Funny how some Americans, best unnamed, have lost touch with the
>> correct word, thinking it is 'bun'! Whoa, far out.
>
> Funny, too, how some people who have moved to other shores have
> forgotten the lingo here.
>
> Can you imagine -- "hot dog roll"?
>
> Me neither.
Well, I can, but it would be a speed contest where hot dogs are rolled along
something. Something like that.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
John Varela
<Robert....@Verizon.net> wrote:
> As for bread, there's a bakery within two miles of my residence in
> Greater Laurel that makes all sorts of wonderful varieties. (If any
> greater Laurelian cares: The Heidelberg on Lee Highway at Culpeper
> St. in Arlington.)
I never much cared for them, though my niece worked there for a while. Now
Randolph's, which is in Heidelberg's old location, has super pastries. I
don't know about their breads.
We had a great bread bakery in McLean called "Baker's Place", but it was
bought out by the "Marvelous Market" chain and while still good it's no longer
great.
By the way, I passed Ray's on my way home from lunch at Red, Hot, and Blue
yesterday. You didn't mention that the full name of the place is "Ray's the
Steaks".
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much.
John Varela
> I claim, with little support from my fellow Americans (Hi,
> LBJ, if you're up there!), that the somewhat similar thing that
> surrounds a hot dog sausage is properly called by no other term than
> 'roll'. Little can be said about why, other than my earlier remarks
> about cylindrical shapes. We'd need a survey that took a reasonable
> sample of extant English speakers, in the US and elsewhere, to see if
> I'm right or wrong.
I dunno, Charles. I think I've been calling them "hot dog buns" for over 60
years. So has my wife. That settles it for the deep South and the Midwest.
Brooklyn (FLCIA) may differ.
I checked the larder but we don't seem to have in our possession at this time
a package of hot dog buns/rolls for me to check current industry nomenclature.
"Hot dog bun" gets 7,710 hits, while "hot dog roll" gets 1,490.
Areff
> I dunno, Charles. I think I've been calling them "hot dog buns" for over 60
> years. So has my wife. That settles it for the deep South and the Midwest.
> Brooklyn (FLCIA) may differ.
I don't think so. Certainly when I were growing up in Brooklyn the term
was "hot dog bun", not "hot dog roll". Hamburgers were usually served on
buns, but on occasion they might instead be served on a roll.
Note that particular commercial renditions of hot dog buns (and hamburger
buns) may use the term "roll". This doesn't change the fact that in the
dialects in question "bun" is the term used to describe these things.
Sister Sara Lorimer (ADOQ) made some reference to older terms for things
being in use in New England. I wonder whether Chuck Riggs picked up the
"roll" habit during his years down east.
> I checked the larder but we don't seem to have in our possession at this time
> a package of hot dog buns/rolls for me to check current industry nomenclature.
>
> "Hot dog bun" gets 7,710 hits, while "hot dog roll" gets 1,490.
Pepperidge Faaaahm(s) (based in Connecticut, but founded by New Yorkers)
seems to call them "frankfurter rolls". But it's possible that that's a
deliberate old-fashionedism on their part.
--
John Varela
> Incidentally, I searched for some images of "baps", the apparent UK
> cousin to the AmE roll/bun. Some of them look soft, like hamburger buns;
> others look like they have a tougher exterior, like a Kaiser roll or
> similar sort of roll.
Further to that, in Boston that which is called a "Kaiser" roll elsewhere is
called a "boulkie", pronounced "bulky". (I think I spelled boulkie
correctly.)
John Varela
> Good men, although it appears Matti got mixed up when it came to
> ketchup or mustard. Ketchup must never be put on a hot dog, whereas
> mustard is required: not Colman's Mustard, but Dijon mustard. American
> restaurants often serve them with French's mustard, a piss poor
> substitute, as the only option. I agree with his fried onion
> recommendation, although they are optional. Mustard is not.
You are correct about the ketchup, but French's mustard is traditional and
superior. The onions should be raw and chopped. Chili is an option, as is
pickle relish.
John Varela
> Oh, I'm sure the gyro/"doner kebab" is centuries, maybe thousands of
> years, old. What I was suggesting was that the name _gyro_ just might
> have been an imitation of AmE "hero". It all depends on whether the term
> "gyro" is used in Greece, and was so used before it was imported to
> Lamerica.
I had a gyro in the Plaka in Athens in 1976. As I recall, it was served in a
paper cone, was very greasy, and I didn't much care for it. I had never had
gyro before, but I wanted to try one because I had heard the term, I'm pretty
sure before I left home.
John Varela
> Pepperidge Faaaahm(s) (based in Connecticut, but founded by New Yorkers)
> seems to call them "frankfurter rolls". But it's possible that that's a
> deliberate old-fashionedism on their part.
That may be a New Englandism. In Boston, at least, they use a thing that
might well be called a "roll" for hot dogs, that differs from the normative
hot dog bun and is slitted on the top instead of on the side. You may recall
that Howard Johnson's used to serve their hot dogs on that sort of bun.
Donna Richoux
> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:27:45 UTC, Areff <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > Pepperidge Faaaahm(s) (based in Connecticut, but founded by New Yorkers)
> > seems to call them "frankfurter rolls". But it's possible that that's a
> > deliberate old-fashionedism on their part.
>
> That may be a New Englandism. In Boston, at least, they use a thing that
> might well be called a "roll" for hot dogs, that differs from the normative
> hot dog bun and is slitted on the top instead of on the side. You may recall
> that Howard Johnson's used to serve their hot dogs on that sort of bun.
I think it "roll" is often said in Boston, but I can't find proof in a
hurry. "Roll" is a word used in too many ways, like "rock'n'roll."
Here's a review of a Boston restaurant specializing in hot dogs that
uses roll/rolls about as often as bun/buns:
http://www.inmamaskitchen.com/SEASONS/hotdogs.html
Duggy
Yeah, must have had a brain melt there...
===
= DUG.
===
Maria Conlon
> Maria Conlon wrote:
>> Charles Riggs wrote:
>
>>> Funny how some Americans, best unnamed, have lost touch with the
>>> correct word, thinking it is 'bun'! Whoa, far out.
>>
>> Funny, too, how some people who have moved to other shores have
>> forgotten the lingo here.
>>
>> Can you imagine -- "hot dog roll"?
>>
>> Me neither.
>
> Well, I can, but it would be a speed contest where hot dogs are
> rolled along something. Something like that.
Maybe, then, a hot dog roll is something like a log-rolling contest. I
guess it'd have to be for very little people...
Maria Conlon
Charles Riggs
I'm little? Oh well, at least you didn't imply that about my hot dog.
Maria Conlon
> Maria Conlon wrote:
>> Skitt wrote:
>>> Maria Conlon wrote:
>>>> Charles Riggs wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Funny how some Americans, best unnamed, have lost touch with
>>>>> the correct word, thinking it is 'bun'! Whoa, far out.
>>>>
>>>> Funny, too, how some people who have moved to other shores have
>>>> forgotten the lingo here.
>>>>
>>>> Can you imagine -- "hot dog roll"?
>>>>
>>>> Me neither.
>>>
>>> Well, I can, but it would be a speed contest where hot dogs are
>>> rolled along something. Something like that.
>>
>> Maybe, then, a hot dog roll is something like a log-rolling
>> contest. I guess it'd have to be for very little people...
>
> I'm little?
Did I say that? No, I did not. I just said the contest would have to be
for very little people.
>... Oh well, at least you didn't imply that about my hot dog.
Should I have?
Maria Conlon
Ball Park Franks plump when you cook them.