Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
To "Grow like Topsy"
1,534 views
Skip to first unread message
fabzorba
Apr 25, 2012, 11:31:26 PM4/25/12
to
In Harriet Beecher Stowe’s "Uncle Tom’s Cabin", Topsy, a wild young
slave girl says at one stage: "I s'pect I just growed. Don't think
nobody never made me." The phrase "growed [later 'grew'] like Topsy"
entered the language, and is still heard. For example, then Prime
Minister (of Australia) John Howard once pronounced: "The economy is
growing like Topsy".
Now, do you imagine that Topsy, a young girl, was in fact eight feet
tall and weighed 30 stones? No, I don't think so. "Growing like Topsy"
is now used mainly to signify prodigious growth, as John Howard
employed it, but its ORIGINAL meaning was a little more subtle. It
meant, as Topsy intended it to mean, growth without supervision or
prior planning. Thus, we could say "Usenet grew like Topsy", "The
shantytown of Soweto, like all such settlements, grew like Topsy" and
so on. But just about all the dictionaries I've looked at define
"growing like Topsy" to have the simple meaning of accelerated growth.
Aue should take a stand on this kind of thing...
Myles [And I hate that, I hate it so much...] paulsen
slave girl says at one stage: "I s'pect I just growed. Don't think
nobody never made me." The phrase "growed [later 'grew'] like Topsy"
entered the language, and is still heard. For example, then Prime
Minister (of Australia) John Howard once pronounced: "The economy is
growing like Topsy".
Now, do you imagine that Topsy, a young girl, was in fact eight feet
tall and weighed 30 stones? No, I don't think so. "Growing like Topsy"
is now used mainly to signify prodigious growth, as John Howard
employed it, but its ORIGINAL meaning was a little more subtle. It
meant, as Topsy intended it to mean, growth without supervision or
prior planning. Thus, we could say "Usenet grew like Topsy", "The
shantytown of Soweto, like all such settlements, grew like Topsy" and
so on. But just about all the dictionaries I've looked at define
"growing like Topsy" to have the simple meaning of accelerated growth.
Aue should take a stand on this kind of thing...
Myles [And I hate that, I hate it so much...] paulsen
fabzorba
Apr 25, 2012, 11:45:21 PM4/25/12
to
the term "Uncle Tom",
but the name Topsy also entered the language in "growed like Topsy".
Now, Trilby is novel by George du Maurier, whose eponymous heroine was
later played on the stage by an actress wearing a style of hat that
then took on the name Trilby. Like Uncle Tom's Cabin, the novel
"Trilby" portrays another character whose name has come down to us,
and is still used occasionally. WITHOUT googling it, can you tell me
who that character is, and what his special claim to fame is?
How many works of art can you think of that have given English more
than one name to denote some special characteristic?
myles [special Fabzorba Fabulous Fanzine backstage passes up for
grabs] paulsen
Eric Walker
Apr 26, 2012, 1:04:24 AM4/26/12
to
On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:31:26 -0700, fabzorba wrote:
> In Harriet Beecher Stowe’s "Uncle Tom’s Cabin", Topsy, a wild young
> slave girl says at one stage: "I s'pect I just growed. Don't think
> nobody never made me." The phrase "growed [later 'grew'] like Topsy"
> entered the language, and is still heard. For example, then Prime
> Minister (of Australia) John Howard once pronounced: "The economy is
> growing like Topsy". . . .
> In Harriet Beecher Stowe’s "Uncle Tom’s Cabin", Topsy, a wild young
> slave girl says at one stage: "I s'pect I just growed. Don't think
> nobody never made me." The phrase "growed [later 'grew'] like Topsy"
> entered the language, and is still heard. For example, then Prime
> Minister (of Australia) John Howard once pronounced: "The economy is
The phrase, which I always encountered as "jes' growed, like Topsy", was
in my experience at least invariably used to describe something whose
origin or founding or creation was shrouded in uncertainty, vagueness, or
mystery. The "growth" aspect was not really significant.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Jeff Urs
Apr 26, 2012, 1:18:13 AM4/26/12
to
"fabzorba" <myles....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0ce39786-ed48-4ab0...@h4g2000pbe.googlegroups.com...
of which on Trilby returned her to her boring self?
--
Jeff (introduced to trilby hats by Alistair McLean long ago)
news:0ce39786-ed48-4ab0...@h4g2000pbe.googlegroups.com...
> Now, Trilby is novel by George du Maurier, whose eponymous heroine was
> later played on the stage by an actress wearing a style of hat that
> then took on the name Trilby. Like Uncle Tom's Cabin, the novel
> "Trilby" portrays another character whose name has come down to us,
> and is still used occasionally. WITHOUT googling it, can you tell me
> who that character is, and what his special claim to fame is?
Svengali, isn't it? For his hypnotic powers, the end of the practice
> later played on the stage by an actress wearing a style of hat that
> then took on the name Trilby. Like Uncle Tom's Cabin, the novel
> "Trilby" portrays another character whose name has come down to us,
> and is still used occasionally. WITHOUT googling it, can you tell me
> who that character is, and what his special claim to fame is?
of which on Trilby returned her to her boring self?
--
Jeff (introduced to trilby hats by Alistair McLean long ago)
Tom P
Apr 26, 2012, 5:58:25 AM4/26/12
to
an 1882 play by Victorien Sardou, Fédora, written for Sarah Bernhardt,
and a variety of the fedora became known as the "homburg" after Edward
VII acquired one on a visit to Bad Homburg.
(I shamelessly plagiarized this from Wikipedia)
tony cooper
Apr 26, 2012, 7:26:37 AM4/26/12
to
paraphrase it to "it just happened" indicating that there's no
particular known reason.
The size reference is completely unknown to me.
I would have taken Howard's remark to mean "The growth in the economy
just happened. I have no idea why.".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
David Hatunen
Apr 26, 2012, 2:43:33 PM4/26/12
to
On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:45:21 -0700, fabzorba wrote:
> Now, Trilby is novel by George du Maurier, whose eponymous heroine was
> later played on the stage by an actress wearing a style of hat that then
> took on the name Trilby. Like Uncle Tom's Cabin, the novel "Trilby"
> portrays another character whose name has come down to us, and is still
> used occasionally. WITHOUT googling it, can you tell me who that
> character is, and what his special claim to fame is?
She seems to have invented a hat...
> Now, Trilby is novel by George du Maurier, whose eponymous heroine was
> later played on the stage by an actress wearing a style of hat that then
> took on the name Trilby. Like Uncle Tom's Cabin, the novel "Trilby"
> portrays another character whose name has come down to us, and is still
> used occasionally. WITHOUT googling it, can you tell me who that
> character is, and what his special claim to fame is?
--
Dave Hatunen, Tucson, Baja Arizona
Jerry Friedman
Apr 26, 2012, 3:26:42 PM4/26/12
to
On Apr 26, 5:26 am, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 05:04:24 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker
>
> <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
> >On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:31:26 -0700, fabzorba wrote:
>
> >> In Harriet Beecher Stowe’s "Uncle Tom’s Cabin", Topsy, a wild young
> >> slave girl says at one stage: "I s'pect I just growed. Don't think
> >> nobody never made me." The phrase "growed [later 'grew'] like Topsy"
> >> entered the language, and is still heard. For example, then Prime
> >> Minister (of Australia) John Howard once pronounced: "The economy is
> >> growing like Topsy". . . .
>
> >The phrase, which I always encountered as "jes' growed, like Topsy", was
> >in my experience at least invariably used to describe something whose
> >origin or founding or creation was shrouded in uncertainty, vagueness, or
> >mystery. The "growth" aspect was not really significant.
>
> This is the meaning that I've always thought to be the right one.
Me too.
> On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 05:04:24 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker
>
> <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
> >On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 20:31:26 -0700, fabzorba wrote:
>
> >> In Harriet Beecher Stowe’s "Uncle Tom’s Cabin", Topsy, a wild young
> >> slave girl says at one stage: "I s'pect I just growed. Don't think
> >> nobody never made me." The phrase "growed [later 'grew'] like Topsy"
> >> entered the language, and is still heard. For example, then Prime
> >> Minister (of Australia) John Howard once pronounced: "The economy is
> >> growing like Topsy". . . .
>
> >The phrase, which I always encountered as "jes' growed, like Topsy", was
> >in my experience at least invariably used to describe something whose
> >origin or founding or creation was shrouded in uncertainty, vagueness, or
> >mystery. The "growth" aspect was not really significant.
>
> This is the meaning that I've always thought to be the right one.
> I'd
> paraphrase it to "it just happened" indicating that there's no
> particular known reason.
>
> The size reference is completely unknown to me.
rug", only with less disparate meanings. (There's a better example,
but I can't remember it.)
> I would have taken Howard's remark to mean "The growth in the economy
> just happened. I have no idea why.".
candid.
--
Jerry Friedman
musika
Apr 26, 2012, 3:28:34 PM4/26/12
to
--
Ray
UK
R H Draney
Apr 26, 2012, 4:10:50 PM4/26/12
to
tony cooper filted:
One could charitably suggest that he was trying to suggest that the economy was
growing without that being anyone's intent...people and companies are just
trying to better their own individual lots, with the incidental result that the
economy grows as well....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
growing without that being anyone's intent...people and companies are just
trying to better their own individual lots, with the incidental result that the
economy grows as well....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Mike L
Apr 26, 2012, 6:23:55 PM4/26/12
to
opus*, but I know the significance of Topsy's remark. British
politicians, too, are always doing it. Sometimes you'll even hear
"Growed and growed, like Topsy": they're getting her mixed up with
_The Great Big Enormous Turnip_, with a hint of _The Magic Porridge
Pot_. These Ladybird-level clods have the effrontery to tinker with
the nation's education system.
*But I have mentioned in a.u.e. that the soft of heart will get a good
weep out of her short _Free Joe_.
--
Mike.
Peter Moylan
Apr 26, 2012, 8:30:04 PM4/26/12
to
marketeer, Howard saw government's role as one of removing barriers to
corporate greed.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
R H Draney
Apr 26, 2012, 10:32:01 PM4/26/12
to
Mike L filted:
>
>*But I have mentioned in a.u.e. that the soft of heart will get a good
>weep out of her short _Free Joe_.
I would prefer not to get a weep out of another person's shorts....r
>*But I have mentioned in a.u.e. that the soft of heart will get a good
>weep out of her short _Free Joe_.
fabzorba
Apr 27, 2012, 3:07:07 AM4/27/12
to
He most certainly did not intend the meaning that the economy grows
without anybody's intent. He would, in contrast, wish to be seen as
the helmsman who made it all possible.
I don't know about elsewhere, but in Oz, "growing like Topsy" is used
almost invariably to refer to prodigous growth. Quite a few reputable
dictionaries have this meaning, some have it as the ONLY meaning.
I knit my great hairy boomerang eyebrows in puzzlement when Tony
Cooper et al declare that they have never come across the phrase used
in this way. They must restrict their company to a very knowledgeable
coterie of purists.
myles [of which of course I am not one] paulsen
fabzorba
Apr 27, 2012, 3:13:32 AM4/27/12
to
is by Joel Chandler Harris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Joe_and_the_Rest_of_the_World
You must have been weeping so hard, the name on the dust jacket just
swam and dissolved in front of your eyes.
myles [or is this some kind of aue frouper in joke which I just fell
for?] paulsen
fabzorba
Apr 27, 2012, 3:14:53 AM4/27/12
to
On Apr 27, 12:32 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Mike L filted:
>
>
>
> >*But I have mentioned in a.u.e. that the soft of heart will get a good
> >weep out of her short _Free Joe_.
>
> I would prefer not to get a weep out of another person's shorts....r
>
You COULD however, blow your nose in them...
> Mike L filted:
>
>
>
> >*But I have mentioned in a.u.e. that the soft of heart will get a good
> >weep out of her short _Free Joe_.
>
> I would prefer not to get a weep out of another person's shorts....r
>
myles [for some reason, I see polka dots] paulsen
Robert Bannister
Apr 27, 2012, 7:05:36 PM4/27/12
to
misunderstanding. I took St. John to mean the economy had grown without
anyone directing it, which was pretty much true of the Howard years.
--
Robert Bannister
tony cooper
Apr 27, 2012, 7:38:49 PM4/27/12
to
in Orlando, Florida only by special order. I have not placed such an
order. I have not been made aware of any visits by Australian
government officials or been privy to remarks public or private by
Australian dignitaries.
I'm a bit chary of any dictionary that uses a definition of a phrase
that is completely different from the meaning of the phrase as
originally used when that phrase has a relatively modern origin.
The meaning of some words and phrases have transmogrified over time,
but this phrase - appearing first in 1852 - is barely out of the nest
for American readers, and probably an even more recent hatchling in
Oz. It wouldn't seem as if even a country with the ability to produce
a great manipulator of words and phrases such as Rupert Murdoch could
pull off a change like this.
Perhaps Howard can drop back a few centuries and refer to the economic
growth as Brobdingnagian unless Australia's economic growth was merely
haphazard, undirected, and not really all that prodigious. Even if
inappropriate, he could still use it. We expect politicians to play
fast and loose with facts, but not with phrase meanings.
censu...@gmail.com
Sep 11, 2014, 3:34:38 AM9/11/14
to
Ever since I was a small boy (I'm over 50 now), I've heard people (mostly older people) say something "grew like Topsy" (usually not "grow'd" or "growed") to mean that it grew very rapidly or to great size, usually both. I never knew where the phrase came from until I looked it up today. Clearly, the fictional Topsy meant only that she grew without design or assistance, not that she was unusually large. Yet I have seldom heard "grow/grew like Topsy" used with that original meaning. Maybe the meaning of "grow prodigiously" is more common here in Texas than elsewhere.
In closing, I will note that my grandparents in Crowell, Texas. had a neighbor who was universally known by the nickname Topsy. I was acquainted with that Topsy, but never heard why she was called that. She was a woman of ordinary size, neither tall nor short nor obese nor unusually thin. Crowell's Topsy would have been born around 1900, when talk of the fictional Topsy was apparently more common than it is now.
Gary
In closing, I will note that my grandparents in Crowell, Texas. had a neighbor who was universally known by the nickname Topsy. I was acquainted with that Topsy, but never heard why she was called that. She was a woman of ordinary size, neither tall nor short nor obese nor unusually thin. Crowell's Topsy would have been born around 1900, when talk of the fictional Topsy was apparently more common than it is now.
Gary
Tony Cooper
Sep 11, 2014, 11:00:19 AM9/11/14
to
anyone or anything having anything to do with it. Topsy wasn't taking
about growth or size. She was saying that she didn't have parents or
that anyone made her. The following sentence is " Don't think nobody
never made me."
However, people hear the "I spect I grow'd" part and associate it with
an increase in size. They don't think of the original use.
Today we hear about city budgets "growing like Topsy" implying that
they keep increasing in size. It's the wrong use of a reference, but
we know what is meant because the wrong use has been used to much.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 11, 2014, 11:12:27 AM9/11/14
to
On Thursday, September 11, 2014 11:00:19 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> Today we hear about city budgets "growing like Topsy" implying that
> they keep increasing in size. It's the wrong use of a reference, but
> we know what is meant because the wrong use has been used to much.
to much effect? to much discomfit the pedant?
> Today we hear about city budgets "growing like Topsy" implying that
> they keep increasing in size. It's the wrong use of a reference, but
> we know what is meant because the wrong use has been used to much.
Harrison Hill
Sep 11, 2014, 11:40:00 AM9/11/14
to
Mike L
Sep 11, 2014, 6:02:55 PM9/11/14
to
bad, but shafting literary allusions is criminal. I thought till now
that it was only British politicians who committed this solecism: I'm
further depressed to find that US pollies are so ignorant of their own
literary heritage. I don't know how it arose over there, but what I
thought had happened here was that the speechers had got three other
Ladybird books mixed in: _The Great Big Enormous Turnip_, _The Magic
Porridge Pot_, and the one about the ever-growing pancake. Topsy's
remark is one of the more touching moments of Western literature -
immensely better than the death of Little Nell, which prompted Wilde
to remark "He must have a heart of stone who can read of the death of
Little Nell without roaring with laughter", OWTTE.
--
Mike.
Don Phillipson
Sep 11, 2014, 3:08:52 PM9/11/14
to
<censu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f51e15c8-89a3-4820...@googlegroups.com...
<<
Ever since I was a small boy (I'm over 50 now), I've heard people (mostly
older people) say something "grew like Topsy" (usually not "grow'd" or
"growed") to mean that it grew very rapidly or to great size, usually both.
I never knew where the phrase came from until I looked it up today. Clearly,
the fictional Topsy meant only that she grew without design or assistance,
not that she was unusually large. Yet I have seldom heard "grow/grew like
Topsy" used with that original meaning. Maybe the meaning of "grow
prodigiously" is more common here in Texas than elsewhere.
>>
Wikipedia provides the essence at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom%27s_Cabin
A later investigator concluded "The phrase "growed like Topsy" (later "grew
like Topsy")
passed into the English language, originally with the specific meaning of
unplanned growth, later sometimes just meaning enormous growth."
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:f51e15c8-89a3-4820...@googlegroups.com...
<<
Ever since I was a small boy (I'm over 50 now), I've heard people (mostly
older people) say something "grew like Topsy" (usually not "grow'd" or
"growed") to mean that it grew very rapidly or to great size, usually both.
I never knew where the phrase came from until I looked it up today. Clearly,
the fictional Topsy meant only that she grew without design or assistance,
not that she was unusually large. Yet I have seldom heard "grow/grew like
Topsy" used with that original meaning. Maybe the meaning of "grow
prodigiously" is more common here in Texas than elsewhere.
>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom%27s_Cabin
A later investigator concluded "The phrase "growed like Topsy" (later "grew
like Topsy")
passed into the English language, originally with the specific meaning of
unplanned growth, later sometimes just meaning enormous growth."
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Tony Cooper
Sep 11, 2014, 8:01:42 PM9/11/14
to
book was written by an American who wrote in English. The phrase
started in that language; it didn't pass into that language.
I'd go along with "The phrase was mistakenly adapted to mean unplanned
growth or enormous growth".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
Robert Bannister
Sep 11, 2014, 8:28:58 PM9/11/14
to
On 11/09/2014 3:34 pm, censu...@gmail.com wrote:
> Ever since I was a small boy (I'm over 50 now), I've heard people
> (mostly older people) say something "grew like Topsy" (usually not
> "grow'd" or "growed") to mean that it grew very rapidly or to great
> size, usually both. I never knew where the phrase came from until I
> looked it up today. Clearly, the fictional Topsy meant only that she
> grew without design or assistance, not that she was unusually large.
> Yet I have seldom heard "grow/grew like Topsy" used with that
> original meaning. Maybe the meaning of "grow prodigiously" is more
> common here in Texas than elsewhere.
Interesting. I have only heard it with the "it just happened" meaning
> Ever since I was a small boy (I'm over 50 now), I've heard people
> (mostly older people) say something "grew like Topsy" (usually not
> "grow'd" or "growed") to mean that it grew very rapidly or to great
> size, usually both. I never knew where the phrase came from until I
> looked it up today. Clearly, the fictional Topsy meant only that she
> grew without design or assistance, not that she was unusually large.
> Yet I have seldom heard "grow/grew like Topsy" used with that
> original meaning. Maybe the meaning of "grow prodigiously" is more
> common here in Texas than elsewhere.
and usually with "grow'd".
--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Sep 12, 2014, 7:03:48 AM9/12/14
to
The phrase became detached from its origin and achieved a life of its
own in the wider English language (and apparently acquired a different
meaning).
>I'd go along with "The phrase was mistakenly adapted to mean unplanned
>growth or enormous growth".
--
(in alt.usage.english)
HVS
Sep 12, 2014, 12:39:42 PM9/12/14
to
On 12 Sep 2014, Robert Bannister wrote
I always thought that for something to qualify for Topsy-like growth, the
result had to look odd. It's not just that the growth "just happened", but
that the grow'd thing was something that you would never have designed.
Related to camels, horses, and committees.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
result had to look odd. It's not just that the growth "just happened", but
that the grow'd thing was something that you would never have designed.
Related to camels, horses, and committees.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Helen Lacedaemonian
Sep 12, 2014, 1:42:21 PM9/12/14
to
On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:45:21 PM UTC-7, fabzorba wrote:
>
> How many works of art can you think of that have given English more
> than one name to denote some special characteristic?
>
From The Pickwick Papers:
Pickwickian -- marked by simplicity and generosity
Wellerism -- a humorous juxtaposition of an old saw and a facetious sequel (as " 'every one to his own taste,' said the old woman as she kissed the cow")
From Through the Looking Glass:
the Red Queen hypothesis -- organisms must continually evolve to avoid being left behind in an ever-changing environment
jabberwocky -- nonsensical language
From Alice in Wonderland:
Alice-in-Wonderland -- resembling a dream or fantasy; unreal.
Tweedledum and Tweedledee -- two who are different in name only. Note that Carroll did not invent these names, but only popularized them.
to grin like a Cheshire Cat -- with a conspicuous, inscrutable, long-lasting smile
From the Tempest:
Ariel -- prankish spirit
Caliban -- brutish man
From Romeo and Juliet:
Romeo and Juliet -- star-crossed lovers
The Capulets and the Montagues -- the Hatfields and the McCoys
Best,
Helen
>
> How many works of art can you think of that have given English more
> than one name to denote some special characteristic?
>
From The Pickwick Papers:
Pickwickian -- marked by simplicity and generosity
Wellerism -- a humorous juxtaposition of an old saw and a facetious sequel (as " 'every one to his own taste,' said the old woman as she kissed the cow")
From Through the Looking Glass:
the Red Queen hypothesis -- organisms must continually evolve to avoid being left behind in an ever-changing environment
jabberwocky -- nonsensical language
From Alice in Wonderland:
Alice-in-Wonderland -- resembling a dream or fantasy; unreal.
Tweedledum and Tweedledee -- two who are different in name only. Note that Carroll did not invent these names, but only popularized them.
to grin like a Cheshire Cat -- with a conspicuous, inscrutable, long-lasting smile
From the Tempest:
Ariel -- prankish spirit
Caliban -- brutish man
From Romeo and Juliet:
Romeo and Juliet -- star-crossed lovers
The Capulets and the Montagues -- the Hatfields and the McCoys
Best,
Helen
Mike L
Sep 12, 2014, 5:29:45 PM9/12/14
to
--
Mike.
John Varela
Sep 12, 2014, 9:50:18 PM9/12/14
to
both unplanned and enormous, and that politicians are apt to comment
on.
--
John Varela
0 new messages