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Peter T. Daniels
Aug 1, 2015, 8:43:07 AM8/1/15
to
The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic parishes in the
Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the diocese' efforts" to balance
its budget: with /z/ at the end of the word to indicate the possessive.
"Diocese's" would have been fine, or maybe "diocese'" with /s/.
Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the diocese' efforts" to balance
its budget: with /z/ at the end of the word to indicate the possessive.
"Diocese's" would have been fine, or maybe "diocese'" with /s/.
Will Parsons
Aug 1, 2015, 10:55:45 AM8/1/15
to
"diocese", with the unaccented final syllable /sɪs/ and the possessive
not being particularly common. The pronunciation may even have been
to a desire to muddle competing pronunciations ending in "-se'" [s]
and "-se's" [səz] into a compromise [z].
--
Will
Jerry Friedman
Aug 1, 2015, 12:01:44 PM8/1/15
to
the same as the plural.
--
Jerry Friedman
Don Phillipson
Aug 1, 2015, 2:23:51 PM8/1/15
to
"Will Parsons" <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote in message
news:slrnmrpnfe...@anukis.local...
> I expect a lot of people would be unsure how to form the possessive of
> "diocese", with the unaccented final syllable /s?s/ and the possessive
> not being particularly common.
Perhaps, but it helps to know "diocesan" has been the standard
possessive form for several centuries. It remains jargon, i.e.
familiar to churchgoers but few others: but ought to be known
to competent news editors.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:slrnmrpnfe...@anukis.local...
> I expect a lot of people would be unsure how to form the possessive of
> not being particularly common.
Perhaps, but it helps to know "diocesan" has been the standard
possessive form for several centuries. It remains jargon, i.e.
familiar to churchgoers but few others: but ought to be known
to competent news editors.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Aug 1, 2015, 6:06:56 PM8/1/15
to
On Sat, 1 Aug 2015 14:13:18 -0400, "Don Phillipson"
<e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>"Will Parsons" <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote in message
>news:slrnmrpnfe...@anukis.local...
>
>> I expect a lot of people would be unsure how to form the possessive of
>> "diocese", with the unaccented final syllable /s?s/ and the possessive
>> not being particularly common.
>
>Perhaps, but it helps to know "diocesan" has been the standard
>possessive form for several centuries. It remains jargon, i.e.
>familiar to churchgoers but few others: but ought to be known
>to competent news editors.
I'm in a state of indecision about the use of "diocesan".
<e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>"Will Parsons" <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote in message
>news:slrnmrpnfe...@anukis.local...
>
>> I expect a lot of people would be unsure how to form the possessive of
>> "diocese", with the unaccented final syllable /s?s/ and the possessive
>> not being particularly common.
>
>Perhaps, but it helps to know "diocesan" has been the standard
>possessive form for several centuries. It remains jargon, i.e.
>familiar to churchgoers but few others: but ought to be known
>to competent news editors.
To me "diocesan" means "of a/the diocese". I'm not sure that "of" is the
sense of the possessive in the material PTD referred to:
The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic
parishes in the Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the
diocese' efforts" to balance its budget: with /z/ at the end of the
word to indicate the possessive.
"the efforts by the diocese to balance its budget".
To me the use of "diocesan" to mean "by (a/the) diocese" seems slightly
unnatural.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Will Parsons
Aug 1, 2015, 6:18:10 PM8/1/15
to
On Saturday, 1 Aug 2015 6:06 PM -0400, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Aug 2015 14:13:18 -0400, "Don Phillipson"
><e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>>"Will Parsons" <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:slrnmrpnfe...@anukis.local...
>>
>>> I expect a lot of people would be unsure how to form the possessive of
>>> "diocese", with the unaccented final syllable /sɪs/ and the possessive
> On Sat, 1 Aug 2015 14:13:18 -0400, "Don Phillipson"
><e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>>"Will Parsons" <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:slrnmrpnfe...@anukis.local...
>>
>>> I expect a lot of people would be unsure how to form the possessive of
>>> not being particularly common.
>>
>>Perhaps, but it helps to know "diocesan" has been the standard
>>possessive form for several centuries. It remains jargon, i.e.
>>familiar to churchgoers but few others: but ought to be known
>>to competent news editors.
>
> I'm in a state of indecision about the use of "diocesan".
>
> To me "diocesan" means "of a/the diocese". I'm not sure that "of" is the
> sense of the possessive in the material PTD referred to:
>
> The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic
> parishes in the Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the
> diocese' efforts" to balance its budget: with /z/ at the end of the
> word to indicate the possessive.
>
> I'd understand "the diocese'(s) efforts to balance its budget" to mean
> "the efforts by the diocese to balance its budget".
>
> To me the use of "diocesan" to mean "by (a/the) diocese" seems slightly
> unnatural.
I think I'd agree. "Diocesan" is an adjective, rather than a
>>
>>Perhaps, but it helps to know "diocesan" has been the standard
>>possessive form for several centuries. It remains jargon, i.e.
>>familiar to churchgoers but few others: but ought to be known
>>to competent news editors.
>
> I'm in a state of indecision about the use of "diocesan".
>
> To me "diocesan" means "of a/the diocese". I'm not sure that "of" is the
> sense of the possessive in the material PTD referred to:
>
> The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic
> parishes in the Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the
> diocese' efforts" to balance its budget: with /z/ at the end of the
> word to indicate the possessive.
>
> I'd understand "the diocese'(s) efforts to balance its budget" to mean
> "the efforts by the diocese to balance its budget".
>
> To me the use of "diocesan" to mean "by (a/the) diocese" seems slightly
> unnatural.
possessive, and while an adjective of this type may include the notion
of possession, it's not synonymous with a possessive, and so can't
simply be substituted for one.
--
Will
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 1, 2015, 11:17:06 PM8/1/15
to
On Saturday, August 1, 2015 at 2:23:51 PM UTC-4, Don Phillipson wrote:
> "Will Parsons" <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote in message
> news:slrnmrpnfe...@anukis.local...
>
> > I expect a lot of people would be unsure how to form the possessive of
> > "diocese", with the unaccented final syllable /s?s/ and the possessive
> > not being particularly common.
>
> Perhaps, but it helps to know "diocesan" has been the standard
> possessive form for several centuries. It remains jargon, i.e.
> familiar to churchgoers but few others: but ought to be known
> to competent news editors.
Certainly not in the context given. PeterWD is completely right.
> "Will Parsons" <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote in message
> news:slrnmrpnfe...@anukis.local...
>
> > I expect a lot of people would be unsure how to form the possessive of
> > "diocese", with the unaccented final syllable /s?s/ and the possessive
> > not being particularly common.
>
> Perhaps, but it helps to know "diocesan" has been the standard
> possessive form for several centuries. It remains jargon, i.e.
> familiar to churchgoers but few others: but ought to be known
> to competent news editors.
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 1, 2015, 11:18:14 PM8/1/15
to
I'd say tertiary rather than secondary).
micky
Aug 2, 2015, 12:48:11 AM8/2/15
to
In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 1 Aug 2015 05:43:05 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T.
Obviously the possessive of diocee. Do you have a problem with that?
JK
--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.
JK
--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 2, 2015, 9:19:37 AM8/2/15
to
On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 12:48:11 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
> In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 1 Aug 2015 05:43:05 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T.
> Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic parishes in the
> >Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the diocese' efforts" to balance
> >its budget: with /z/ at the end of the word to indicate the possessive.
> >"Diocese's" would have been fine, or maybe "diocese'" with /s/.
>
> Obviously the possessive of diocee. Do you have a problem with that?
Alas that would end with /z/ because <ee> is voiced and non-sibilant!
> In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 1 Aug 2015 05:43:05 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T.
> Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic parishes in the
> >Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the diocese' efforts" to balance
> >its budget: with /z/ at the end of the word to indicate the possessive.
> >"Diocese's" would have been fine, or maybe "diocese'" with /s/.
>
> Obviously the possessive of diocee. Do you have a problem with that?
Don Phillipson
Aug 2, 2015, 12:12:35 PM8/2/15
to
> On Saturday, 1 Aug 2015 6:06 PM -0400, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>> The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic
>> parishes in the Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the
>> diocese' efforts" to balance its budget: with /z/ at the end of the
>> word to indicate the possessive.
>>
>> I'd understand "the diocese'(s) efforts to balance its budget" to mean
>> "the efforts by the diocese to balance its budget".
>>
>> To me the use of "diocesan" to mean "by (a/the) diocese" seems slightly
>> unnatural.
>> The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic
>> parishes in the Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the
>> diocese' efforts" to balance its budget: with /z/ at the end of the
>> word to indicate the possessive.
>>
>> I'd understand "the diocese'(s) efforts to balance its budget" to mean
>> "the efforts by the diocese to balance its budget".
>>
>> To me the use of "diocesan" to mean "by (a/the) diocese" seems slightly
>> unnatural.
"Will Parsons" <va...@nodomain.invalid> wrote in message
news:slrnmrqhcu...@anukis.local...
> I think I'd agree. "Diocesan" is an adjective, rather than a
> possessive, and while an adjective of this type may include the notion
> of possession, it's not synonymous with a possessive, and so can't
> simply be substituted for one.
diocesan turned out the commonest usage in the 20th century,
this would be enough to rule it natural today.
When correcting "the diocese'(s) efforts to balance its budget"
we are not obliged to swap parts of speech one for one like Lego.
Instead of constructive rules (like that) English approves the usual
and accepted (statistically numerous) way of speaking
or writing -- hence (I think) diocesan.
English is not uniformly symmetrical. Most nouns have both
adjectival forms (e.g. episcopal, diocesan) and possessive
forms (episcopal, diocese's) but no rule requires that they
be distinguishable, as in the former of these two cases. We
know some forms come into or go out of use in time. That's life.
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 2, 2015, 1:16:45 PM8/2/15
to
On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 12:12:35 PM UTC-4, Don Phillipson wrote:
> > On Saturday, 1 Aug 2015 6:06 PM -0400, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
[no, he did not]
> > On Saturday, 1 Aug 2015 6:06 PM -0400, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
(How would PWD have heard a WNYC broadcast?)
policies or practices of a diocese', administered by a diocese'.
Will Parsons
Aug 2, 2015, 3:33:44 PM8/2/15
to
--
Will
Don Phillipson
Aug 3, 2015, 12:22:05 PM8/3/15
to
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:e5d134c3-bdc0-4e44...@googlegroups.com...
> "Diocesan" simply _does not mean_ 'diocese's'. It means 'pertaining to the
> policies or practices of a diocese', administered by a diocese'.
"Simply" may be the problem here when (as always) meaning is
determined partly by context. When we speak of diocesan mail
it does indeed mean mail 'pertaining to the policies or practices
of a diocese.' When we speak of the diocesan budget or the
diocesan almoner it does not: it means something like "diocese's"
i.e. the budget or office belonging to the diocese. English is like that.
news:e5d134c3-bdc0-4e44...@googlegroups.com...
> "Diocesan" simply _does not mean_ 'diocese's'. It means 'pertaining to the
> policies or practices of a diocese', administered by a diocese'.
determined partly by context. When we speak of diocesan mail
it does indeed mean mail 'pertaining to the policies or practices
of a diocese.' When we speak of the diocesan budget or the
diocesan almoner it does not: it means something like "diocese's"
i.e. the budget or office belonging to the diocese. English is like that.
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 3, 2015, 1:05:59 PM8/3/15
to
The word "diocesan" cannot be substituted for "diocese's" in the original news
headline.
micky
Aug 4, 2015, 9:32:25 AM8/4/15
to
In alt.usage.english, on Sun, 2 Aug 2015 06:19:35 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T.
the top.
Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 12:48:11 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 1 Aug 2015 05:43:05 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T.
>> Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> >The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic parishes in the
>> >Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the diocese' efforts" to balance
>> >its budget: with /z/ at the end of the word to indicate the possessive.
>> >"Diocese's" would have been fine, or maybe "diocese'" with /s/.
>>
>> Obviously the possessive of diocee. Do you have a problem with that?
>
>Alas that would end with /z/ because <ee> is voiced and non-sibilant!
Exactly. That's what you said it ended with. Your words are still at
>On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 12:48:11 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 1 Aug 2015 05:43:05 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T.
>> Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> >The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic parishes in the
>> >Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the diocese' efforts" to balance
>> >its budget: with /z/ at the end of the word to indicate the possessive.
>> >"Diocese's" would have been fine, or maybe "diocese'" with /s/.
>>
>> Obviously the possessive of diocee. Do you have a problem with that?
>
>Alas that would end with /z/ because <ee> is voiced and non-sibilant!
the top.
Peter T. Daniels
Aug 4, 2015, 11:28:40 PM8/4/15
to
On Tuesday, August 4, 2015 at 9:32:25 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
> In alt.usage.english, on Sun, 2 Aug 2015 06:19:35 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T.
> Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 12:48:11 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
> >> In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 1 Aug 2015 05:43:05 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T.
> >> Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> >The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic parishes in the
> >> >Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the diocese' efforts" to balance
> >> >its budget: with /z/ at the end of the word to indicate the possessive.
> >> >"Diocese's" would have been fine, or maybe "diocese'" with /s/.
> >>
> >> Obviously the possessive of diocee. Do you have a problem with that?
> >
> >Alas that would end with /z/ because <ee> is voiced and non-sibilant!
>
> Exactly. That's what you said it ended with. Your words are still at
> the top.
He knew perfectly well that the word is not diocee.
> In alt.usage.english, on Sun, 2 Aug 2015 06:19:35 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T.
> Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 12:48:11 AM UTC-4, micky wrote:
> >> In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 1 Aug 2015 05:43:05 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T.
> >> Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> >The WNYC reporter describing the closure of many Roman Catholic parishes in the
> >> >Archdiocese of New York said it was part of "the diocese' efforts" to balance
> >> >its budget: with /z/ at the end of the word to indicate the possessive.
> >> >"Diocese's" would have been fine, or maybe "diocese'" with /s/.
> >>
> >> Obviously the possessive of diocee. Do you have a problem with that?
> >
> >Alas that would end with /z/ because <ee> is voiced and non-sibilant!
>
> Exactly. That's what you said it ended with. Your words are still at
> the top.
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