"Harassment" - pronunciation

[Guy Barry]

This may be one of those BrE/AmE things, but I've just heard a BBC
newsreader pronounce "harassment" with the stress on the second
syllable, and I still find that pronunciation difficult to accept. As
far as I'm concerned "harass" rhymes with "embarrass", as in the
following quote from "The Garden Party" by Hilaire Belloc:

The People In Between
Looked underdone and harassed,
And our of place and mean,
And horribly embarrassed.

(See http://www.quoteland.com/share/Hilaire-Belloc-Quotes/6126/ )

Those who remember the 1970s BBC sitcom "Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em" may
remember that the lead character Frank Spencer would often exclaim
"I've been getting a lot of harASSment", to much amusement from the
audience. I can't help thinking of that character every time I hear
that pronunciation, and it makes it hard for me to take it seriously.

--
Guy Barry

[James Silverton]

I don't know when I last heard someone else in the US saying
"harassment" but I think I would also accent the second syllable with
the first vowel being a schwa: /h@rasment/ (I think the ASCII IPA is
correct.)
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I agree.


--
athel

[Jerry Friedman]

Me too. I consider this the normal pronunciation in American English,
though there are Americans who accent the first syllable and consider
the rest of us to be wrong.

> /h@rasment/ (I think the ASCII IPA is correct.)

Not to be pedantic, but I believe it would be /h@'r&smEnt/ or /
h@'r&sm@nt/. /e/ is the first element of the "day" diphthong or the
vowel of French "été". /a/ is the vowel of French "chat". It's used
a lot as the "cat" vowel in Britain, especially in the north (?), but
not usually written as a phoneme in American English.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 24, 9:24 am, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 24, 8:51 am, James Silverton <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 5/24/2012 10:02 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
>
> > > This may be one of those BrE/AmE things, but I've just heard a BBC
> > > newsreader pronounce "harassment" with the stress on the second
> > > syllable, and I still find that pronunciation difficult to accept.

...

> > I don't know when I last heard someone else in the US saying
> > "harassment" but I think I would also accent the second syllable with
> > the first vowel being a schwa:
>
> Me too.  I consider this the normal pronunciation in American English,
> though there are Americans who accent the first syllable and consider
> the rest of us to be wrong.

...

Dictionary.com says,

"harass, a 17th-century French borrowing, has traditionally been
pronounced  /ˈhærəs/ [har-uhs] , with stress on the first syllable. A
newer pronunciation,  /həˈræs/ [huh-ras], has developed in North
American (but not British) English. While this newer pronunciation is
sometimes criticized by older educated speakers, it has become the
more common one in the U.S., especially among younger educated
speakers, some of whom have only minimal familiarity with the older
form."

AHD4 says, "Educated usage appears to be evenly divided on the
pronunciation of _harass_.... Curiously, the Panelists' comments
appear to indicate that each side regards itself as an embattled
minority."

--
Jerry Friedman

[James Silverton]

> vowel of French "�t�". /a/ is the vowel of French "chat". It's used

> a lot as the "cat" vowel in Britain, especially in the north (?), but
> not usually written as a phoneme in American English.
>

Thanks, I agree with you on the use of two schwas and I just wrote /e/
rather than /E/ without thinking. However, I can't really tell much
difference in examples given in
http://alt-usage-english.org/ipa/ascii_ipa_combined.shtml
for /&/ and /a/ and I've never mastered the markings for stress.

[Peter Moylan]

James Silverton wrote:

> However, I can't really tell much difference in examples given in
> http://alt-usage-english.org/ipa/ascii_ipa_combined.shtml for /&/ and
> /a/ and I've never mastered the markings for stress.

Interesting. For me /&/ and /a/ are totally different from each other,
but I can't always reliably distinguish between /a/ and /A/.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Mike L]

On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:02:31 -0700 (PDT), Guy Barry
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>This may be one of those BrE/AmE things, but I've just heard a BBC
>newsreader pronounce "harassment" with the stress on the second
>syllable, and I still find that pronunciation difficult to accept. As
>far as I'm concerned "harass" rhymes with "embarrass", as in the
>following quote from "The Garden Party" by Hilaire Belloc:
>
>The People In Between
>Looked underdone and harassed,
>And our of place and mean,
>And horribly embarrassed.
>
>(See http://www.quoteland.com/share/Hilaire-Belloc-Quotes/6126/ )

That's how I say it.

>
>Those who remember the 1970s BBC sitcom "Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em" may
>remember that the lead character Frank Spencer would often exclaim
>"I've been getting a lot of harASSment", to much amusement from the
>audience. I can't help thinking of that character every time I hear
>that pronunciation, and it makes it hard for me to take it seriously.

--

Mike.

[tony cooper]

On Thu, 24 May 2012 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Me too. I consider this the normal pronunciation in American English,
>though there are Americans who accent the first syllable and consider
>the rest of us to be wrong.
>

I deliberately avoid using the word aloud. Sure as I do, it will be
to someone who pronounces it differently and wants to correct me. I
don't like being harassed.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Guy Barry]

On May 24, 4:33 pm, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dictionary.com says,
>
> "harass, a 17th-century French borrowing, has traditionally been
> pronounced  /ˈhærəs/ [har-uhs] ,  with stress on the first syllable. A
> newer pronunciation,  /həˈræs/ [huh-ras], has developed in North
> American (but not British) English.

It seems to have spread over here now, certainly amongst younger
people. A report at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11642588 says:

"Once upon a time, there were gales of laughter when Frank Spencer in
Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em pronounced 'harass' with the emphasis on the
second syllable.

Now, according to the British Library, evidence suggests that for
people under the age of 35, it is becoming the favoured
pronunciation."

I've heard a couple more oddly stressed words recently. Yesterday a
BBC newsreader pronounced "irrevocable" with the stress on the third
syllable and this morning a professor being interviewed pronounced
"plethora" with the stress on the second. Do people just see these
things written down and guess at the pronunciation?

--
Guy Barry

[James Hogg]

Guy Barry wrote:
> On May 24, 4:33 pm, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Dictionary.com says,
>>
>> "harass, a 17th-century French borrowing, has traditionally been
>> pronounced  /ˈhærəs/ [har-uhs] , with stress on the first syllable. A
>> newer pronunciation,  /həˈræs/ [huh-ras], has developed in North
>> American (but not British) English.
>
> It seems to have spread over here now, certainly amongst younger
> people. A report at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11642588 says:
>
> "Once upon a time, there were gales of laughter when Frank Spencer in
> Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em pronounced 'harass' with the emphasis on the
> second syllable.
>
> Now, according to the British Library, evidence suggests that for
> people under the age of 35, it is becoming the favoured
> pronunciation."
>
> I've heard a couple more oddly stressed words recently. Yesterday a
> BBC newsreader pronounced "irrevocable" with the stress on the third
> syllable

That would be correct if he was talking about letters of credit, but I
suppose that wasn't the case. Do remember which vowel he used? Was it
"vock" or "voke"?

> and this morning a professor being interviewed pronounced
> "plethora" with the stress on the second.

Maybe he was influenced by the Greek pronunciation?

> Do people just see these
> things written down and guess at the pronunciation?

That's a distinct possibility.

--
James

[Guy Barry]

On May 25, 8:12 am, James Hogg <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote:

> Guy Barry wrote:

> > I've heard a couple more oddly stressed words recently.  Yesterday a
> > BBC newsreader pronounced "irrevocable" with the stress on the third
> > syllable
>
> That would be correct if he was talking about letters of credit, but I
> suppose that wasn't the case.  Do remember which vowel he used? Was it
> "vock" or "voke"?

(Why do you assume the newsreader was male?) She used a short "o" -
irre-VOCK-able. She was Scottish so I suppose it may be a dialectal
difference.

> > and this morning a professor being interviewed pronounced
> > "plethora" with the stress on the second.
>
> Maybe he was influenced by the Greek pronunciation?

I didn't know the etymology and was surprised to discover that there
was a long "o" (omega) in Greek. I wonder how the stress moved to the
first syllable in English?

--
Guy Barry

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:02:31 -0700 (PDT), Guy Barry
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>This may be one of those BrE/AmE things, but I've just heard a BBC
>newsreader pronounce "harassment" with the stress on the second
>syllable, and I still find that pronunciation difficult to accept. As
>far as I'm concerned "harass" rhymes with "embarrass", as in the
>following quote from "The Garden Party" by Hilaire Belloc:
>
>The People In Between
>Looked underdone and harassed,
>And our of place and mean,
>And horribly embarrassed.

I grew up with that pronunciation, but since "Cagney and Lacey" appeared on
the TV screens I've heard it both ways.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Eric Walker]

On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:02:31 -0700, Guy Barry wrote:

> This may be one of those BrE/AmE things, but I've just heard a BBC
> newsreader pronounce "harassment" with the stress on the second

> syllable, and I still find that pronunciation difficult to accept. . . .

I think we've had this discussion before.

There are several words where the use as a noun is accented on the first
syllable and as a verb on the second, "record" being a familiar example,
and I daresay folk unsure of the pronunciation of apparently parallel
cases will go by that presumed parallelism.

Thus, the verb form here would be har-ASS. There is no exact noun, but
by obvious extension, that would suggest HAR-ass-ment as the noun form.


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 24 May 2012 23:29:17 -0700 (PDT), Guy Barry
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>I've heard a couple more oddly stressed words recently. Yesterday a
>BBC newsreader pronounced "irrevocable" with the stress on the third
>syllable and this morning a professor being interviewed pronounced
>"plethora" with the stress on the second. Do people just see these
>things written down and guess at the pronunciation?

Yes, sometimes they do.

While I can't think of any at the moment, there are several words I first
encountered in books, and only heard them spoken much later.

[Guy Barry]

On May 25, 10:19 am, Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:

> There are several words where the use as a noun is accented on the first
> syllable and as a verb on the second, "record" being a familiar example,
> and I daresay folk unsure of the pronunciation of apparently parallel
> cases will go by that presumed parallelism.
>
> Thus, the verb form here would be har-ASS.  There is no exact noun, but
> by obvious extension, that would suggest HAR-ass-ment as the noun form.

There's no parallel here that I can see, because "harass" isn't used
as a noun. The addition of "-ment" to transform a verb to a noun
doesn't normally change the stress pattern, e.g.
"require"/"requirement", "improve"/"improvement". An individual
speaker might pronounce "harass" and "harassment" both with the
stress on the first syllable, or both with the stress on the second,
but it would be odd to use one pattern for the verb and one for the
noun.

--
Guy Barry

[James Hogg]

My Pronouncing Dictionary of American English is from 1953. It gives the
British pronunciation first and adds a note that the form har-ASS
"appears to be on the increase". It seems that a lot has happened in
half a century.

--
James

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 25, 3:19 am, Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:02:31 -0700, Guy Barry wrote:
> > This may be one of those BrE/AmE things, but I've just heard a BBC
> > newsreader pronounce "harassment" with the stress on the second
> > syllable, and I still find that pronunciation difficult to accept. . . .
>
> I think we've had this discussion before.
>
> There are several words where the use as a noun is accented on the first
> syllable and as a verb on the second, "record" being a familiar example,
> and I daresay folk unsure of the pronunciation of apparently parallel
> cases will go by that presumed parallelism.

Also, I believe many English speakers, or at least Americans, have a
tendency to assume that a syllable ending in a double letter is
accented (with exceptions such as the suffix -ness). Remember Tony
Dorsett?

> Thus, the verb form here would be har-ASS.  There is no exact noun, but
> by obvious extension, that would suggest HAR-ass-ment as the noun form.

I can't think of a case where adding -ment changes the stress.
ReCRUITment, deFERment, alLOTment, eQUIPment. So for those of us who
say harASS, the natural pronunciation of the noun is harASSment.

--
Jerry Friedman

[James Hogg]

There is the word "advertisement", but it's not a good example, not only
because the pronunciation of the noun varies but also because the verb
"advertise" has undergone a change of pronunciation since Shakespeare's
day ("I have advertised him by secret means").

--
James

[Katy Jennison]

On 25/05/2012 07:29, Guy Barry wrote:

>
> I've heard a couple more oddly stressed words recently. Yesterday a
> BBC newsreader pronounced "irrevocable" with the stress on the third
> syllable and this morning a professor being interviewed pronounced
> "plethora" with the stress on the second.

The one getting my goat at the moment is "jubilee", with the stress put
on the third syllable.

--
Katy Jennison

[Rich Ulrich]

On Fri, 25 May 2012 06:58:08 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On May 25, 3:19 am, Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:02:31 -0700, Guy Barry wrote:
>> > This may be one of those BrE/AmE things, but I've just heard a BBC
>> > newsreader pronounce "harassment" with the stress on the second
>> > syllable, and I still find that pronunciation difficult to accept. . . .
>>
>> I think we've had this discussion before.
>>
>> There are several words where the use as a noun is accented on the first
>> syllable and as a verb on the second, "record" being a familiar example,
>> and I daresay folk unsure of the pronunciation of apparently parallel
>> cases will go by that presumed parallelism.
>
>Also, I believe many English speakers, or at least Americans, have a
>tendency to assume that a syllable ending in a double letter is
>accented (with exceptions such as the suffix -ness). Remember Tony
>Dorsett?

That is an ambiguous example.
While starring at the University of Pittsburgh, Tony Dorsett had
the accent on the DOR. I believe that was dictated by his coaches,
for subtle reasons. He was Dorsett with the final accent as a pro.

Between the end of the Heissman voting and its announcement,
the press was introduced to Dorsett's girlfriend and their
illegitimate child. I think that his preferred pronunciation of his
name came out then, too.

>
>> Thus, the verb form here would be har-ASS.  There is no exact noun, but
>> by obvious extension, that would suggest HAR-ass-ment as the noun form.
>
>I can't think of a case where adding -ment changes the stress.
>ReCRUITment, deFERment, alLOTment, eQUIPment. So for those of us who
>say harASS, the natural pronunciation of the noun is harASSment.

--

Rich Ulrich

[Guy Barry]

"James Hogg" <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> wrote in message
news:jpo3hl$ii2$1...@dont-email.me...

Also, the shift in stress pattern works the opposite way to the one
suggested: adding "-ment" to "AD-ver-tise" creates "ad-VER-tise-ment".

--
Guy Barry

[John Doe]

According to Saturday Night Live...

Her ass meant!

[Guy Barry]

Yes, that bothered me in 1977 and 2002. I'm sure it'll pass this time
as well.

(I liked one reporter's reference to the "Jubilympics" though.)

--
Guy Barry

[musika]

Not to mention the knapsack.
--
Ray
UK

[R H Draney]

Steve Hayes filted:

>
>On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:02:31 -0700 (PDT), Guy Barry
><guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>This may be one of those BrE/AmE things, but I've just heard a BBC
>>newsreader pronounce "harassment" with the stress on the second
>>syllable, and I still find that pronunciation difficult to accept. As
>>far as I'm concerned "harass" rhymes with "embarrass", as in the
>>following quote from "The Garden Party" by Hilaire Belloc:
>>
>>The People In Between
>>Looked underdone and harassed,
>>And our of place and mean,
>>And horribly embarrassed.
>
>I grew up with that pronunciation, but since "Cagney and Lacey" appeared on
>the TV screens I've heard it both ways.

"Her words said no, but harassment yes"....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Mike L]

That would, I imagine, have been lifted from the very funny series
_Twenty-Twelve_: the marketing team had it as one of their brainwaves.

--
Mike.

[Robert Bannister]

On 25/05/12 2:29 PM, Guy Barry wrote:

> I've heard a couple more oddly stressed words recently. Yesterday a
> BBC newsreader pronounced "irrevocable" with the stress on the third
> syllable

I have never heard it pronounced any other way. My best guess is that
you like second syllable stress - each to their own - I hate "CONtribue"
as opposed to "conTRIbute", but I don't try to fight it.


--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

On 25/05/12 9:58 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On May 25, 3:19 am, Eric Walker<em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 May 2012 07:02:31 -0700, Guy Barry wrote:
>>> This may be one of those BrE/AmE things, but I've just heard a BBC
>>> newsreader pronounce "harassment" with the stress on the second
>>> syllable, and I still find that pronunciation difficult to accept. . . .
>>
>> I think we've had this discussion before.
>>
>> There are several words where the use as a noun is accented on the first
>> syllable and as a verb on the second, "record" being a familiar example,
>> and I daresay folk unsure of the pronunciation of apparently parallel
>> cases will go by that presumed parallelism.
>
> Also, I believe many English speakers, or at least Americans, have a
> tendency to assume that a syllable ending in a double letter is
> accented (with exceptions such as the suffix -ness). Remember Tony
> Dorsett?

The surname Barnett is always stressed on the last syllable over here -
our Western Australian Premier is Colin Barnett. In England, I knew two
Barnett families who stressed their name on the first syllable.

However, last week I heard a TV presenter call our premier "Colon".


--
Robert Bannister

[Peter Moylan]

Knapsack? Do you mean as in "jubilee, jubilah, jubilah, jubilahahahahahaha"?

[Peter Moylan]

Robert Bannister wrote:

> The surname Barnett is always stressed on the last syllable over here -
> our Western Australian Premier is Colin Barnett. In England, I knew two
> Barnett families who stressed their name on the first syllable.
>
> However, last week I heard a TV presenter call our premier "Colon".

It's easy to fall into that sort of trap. Didn't we have a whole
generation of people who couldn't remember how to spell "beetle"?

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 26 May 2012 09:29:34 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com>
wrote:

That's probably because "controversy" was used as a shibboleth for
newsreaders, and they were just being extra careful.

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 25, 12:16 pm, "Guy Barry" <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "James Hogg" <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> wrote in message

>
> news:jpo3hl$ii2$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> > Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > On May 25, 3:19 am, Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com> wrote:
> > >> Thus, the verb form here would be har-ASS.  There is no exact noun, but
> > >> by obvious extension, that would suggest HAR-ass-ment as the noun form.
>
> > > I can't think of a case where adding -ment changes the stress.
> > > ReCRUITment, deFERment, alLOTment, eQUIPment.  So for those of us who
> > > say harASS, the natural pronunciation of the noun is harASSment.
>
> > There is the word "advertisement", but it's not a good example, not only
> > because the pronunciation of the noun varies

I'd never have come up with that example, though I know the RP of it.
I say ADvertise, as you might guess.

> > but also because the verb
> > "advertise" has undergone a change of pronunciation since Shakespeare's
> > day ("I have advertised him by secret means").
>
> Also, the shift in stress pattern works the opposite way to the one
> suggested: adding "-ment" to "AD-ver-tise" creates "ad-VER-tise-ment".

But in one way it might be similar. "Advertisement" seems to retain
the historical stress in BrE, though "advertise" has changed.
Likewise if there are people who say "harASS" but "HARassment", as
Eric thought would be natural, the "-ment" form would retain the old
pronunciation though the verb had changed.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

...

I think the timing is right.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8-4uAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PdsFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3798,2263859

but in this story Dorsett says his brothers had told him their name
was French, and he just wanted to see what feedback he'd get on the
new pronunciation.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YmwfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=L9UEAAAAIBAJ&pg=906,1104882

Your suggestion about his coaches at Pitt is new to me.

Anyway, I feel sure the name was originally pronounced like Dorset,
and that whenever the change occurred, it had to do with the double t.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Nick Spalding]

Jerry Friedman wrote, in
<beea163d-8bc4-46f0...@t35g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>
on Fri, 25 May 2012 22:32:13 -0700 (PDT):

Here in Dublin Dorset Street is pronounced as DorSETT.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Sat, 26 May 2012 11:49:12 +0100, Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie>
wrote:

Do you recall the Irish actor Noel Purcell?

I'm trying to remember the pronunciation of his name. I seem to recall
that there was a difference between the way he and his fellow Irish
pronounced it and the way that British people said it.

I *think* Brits said it as PurCELL (like the composer) and the Irish as
PURcell with the e indistinct. To BrE ears that made him sound rather
similar to the Persil washing powder.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 26, 4:49 am, Nick Spalding <spald...@iol.ie> wrote:
> Jerry Friedman wrote, in

> <beea163d-8bc4-46f0-a15c-ed0281ac8...@t35g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>

> >http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8-4uAAAAIBAJ&sjid=PdsFAAAAIBAJ&p...

>
> >but in this story Dorsett says his brothers had told him their name
> >was French, and he just wanted to see what feedback he'd get on the
> >new pronunciation.
>

> >http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YmwfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=L9UEAAAAIBAJ&p...

>
> >Your suggestion about his coaches at Pitt is new to me.
>
> >Anyway, I feel sure the name was originally pronounced like Dorset,
> >and that whenever the change occurred, it had to do with the double t.
>
> Here in Dublin Dorset Street is pronounced as DorSETT.

Well, maybe the double t isn't that important. Wikipedia says the
street was named after the first Duke of Dorset, so Dubliners must
have changed the pronunciation.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Nick Spalding]

Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote, in
<3pf1s7thnts1u618i...@4ax.com>
on Sat, 26 May 2012 12:37:13 +0100:

You are quite right, that's just how he was pronounced.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Nick Spalding]

Jerry Friedman wrote, in
<27695ee9-4a2c-44c1...@c19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>
on Sat, 26 May 2012 06:15:51 -0700 (PDT):

As they did to Ely Place which is pronounced with the 'ly' like 'lie',
both syllables having nearly equal weight.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[musika]

Peter Moylan wrote:
> musika wrote:
>> Katy Jennison wrote:
>>> On 25/05/2012 07:29, Guy Barry wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've heard a couple more oddly stressed words recently. Yesterday
>>>> a BBC newsreader pronounced "irrevocable" with the stress on the
>>>> third syllable and this morning a professor being interviewed
>>>> pronounced "plethora" with the stress on the second.
>>>
>>> The one getting my goat at the moment is "jubilee", with the stress
>>> put on the third syllable.
>>
>> Not to mention the knapsack.
>
> Knapsack? Do you mean as in "jubilee, jubilah, jubilah,
> jubilahahahahahaha"?

Indeed.
--
Ray
UK

[Rich Ulrich]

- It doesn't say whether his brothers told him that a few
months before, or 15 years before. The fact that he stuck
with it *tends* to confirm what I recollect reading at the time,
that the "new pronunciation" was the family's pronunciation.

>
>http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YmwfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=L9UEAAAAIBAJ&pg=906,1104882
>
>Your suggestion about his coaches at Pitt is new to me.

Both articles confirm the timing.
I can't say that I ever saw a change in accent put directly
on the coaches.

I can't swear that hiding the illegitimate child was done
by the coaches, either, but (a) Johnny Majors was careful
with the press, (b) having an illegitimate kid would certainly
have hurt TD's Heisman chances in 1977, and (c) the timing
was what it was. I know that some sports columist pointed
out the timing, because I wouldn't have known about it.

Using a "bigheaded" pronunciation (Tony's quoted comment)
would have hurt his chances, too. I was probably influenced
by the earlier story of Joe Theismann,
[Wikip]
Notre Dame publicity man Roger Valdiserri insisted that he change
the pronunciation of his name to rhyme with "Heisman", Theismann
recounted later,[6] but he finished second to Jim Plunkett of
Stanford University.[1][5][7]

>
>Anyway, I feel sure the name was originally pronounced like Dorset,
>and that whenever the change occurred, it had to do with the double t.

--

Rich Ulrich

[Mike L]

On Sat, 26 May 2012 14:34:11 +0100, Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie>

I pronounce the composer "PURcell". Two-syllable English surnames
rarely have a natural second-syll stress: when you meet, for example,
a "ChapELL" he's a vicitim of the "Smythe" tendency.

--
Mike.

[Andrew B]

On 26/05/2012 22:33, Mike L wrote:

> I pronounce the composer "PURcell". Two-syllable English surnames
> rarely have a natural second-syll stress: when you meet, for example,
> a "ChapELL" he's a vicitim of the "Smythe" tendency.

I thought I'd check this theory by scanning through a list of England
Test cricketers. Those with two-syllable names ending with a double
letter: TREMlett, TREDwell, PLUNKett, BLACKwell, FLINToff, BICKnell,
TUFnell, RUSSell, BARnett, ALLott, RANDall, DenNESS, BOYcott, COLDwell,
PARfitt, PADgett, EMMett, GIMblett, HARDstaff, MITCHell, BAKEwell,
TURNbull, BARRatt, WYatt, WHYsall, BROCKwell, LOHmann.

There's also Astill, who I think has first-syllable stress, and Flavell,
for whom I don't know.

Would many of these pronunciations surprise an American?

The one definite exception (Mike Denness) is a Scot, incidentally.

[R H Draney]

Andrew B filted:

Not a Bunn, Wackett, Buzzard, Stubble nor Boot in the lot....r

[Mark Brader]

Earlier today I overheard a co-worker's phone call. He hadn't received
reimbursement for some expense because he hadn't kept the receipt, but
only the credit card slip; and he was asking (repeatedly) for another
receipt.

Not pronounced "re-SEET" as I would say it, but "REE-seet". New to me.

I just asked and he's always lived in Southern Ontario -- Toronto and London.
--
Mark Brader We say, "But it wasn't designed to do that!";
Toronto our managers say, "Our customers want this!";
m...@vex.net we say, "Small is beautiful!"; and they say,
"Money is beautiful!" -- Andrew Tannenbaum

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Curlytop]

Mark Brader set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> Earlier today I overheard a co-worker's phone call. He hadn't received
> reimbursement for some expense because he hadn't kept the receipt, but
> only the credit card slip; and he was asking (repeatedly) for another
> receipt.
>
> Not pronounced "re-SEET" as I would say it, but "REE-seet". New to me.
>
> I just asked and he's always lived in Southern Ontario -- Toronto and
> London.

Not current BrE where the -SET bit is always stressed.
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

[vaffa...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, May 27, 2012 9:22:40 AM UTC, Andrew B wrote:
> On 26/05/2012 22:33, Mike L wrote:
>
>
> > I pronounce the composer "PURcell". Two-syllable English surnames
>
> > rarely have a natural second-syll stress: when you meet, for example,
>
> > a "ChapELL" he's a vicitim of the "Smythe" tendency.
>
>
>
> I thought I'd check this theory by scanning through a list of England
>
> Test cricketers. Those with two-syllable names ending with a double
>
> letter: TREMlett, TREDwell, PLUNKett, BLACKwell, FLINToff, BICKnell,
>
> TUFnell, RUSSell, BARnett, ALLott, RANDall, DenNESS, BOYcott, COLDwell,
>
> PARfitt, PADgett, EMMett, GIMblett, HARDstaff, MITCHell, BAKEwell,
>
> TURNbull, BARRatt, WYatt, WHYsall, BROCKwell, LOHmann.
>
>

> Would many of these pronunciations surprise an American?

In the States Barnett is typically pronounced BarNETT, but it's not a useful shibboleth--you can't extrapolate anything systematic--as it's not consistent with the pronunciations GARnet and HARTnett.

One legacy of America's immigrant heritage is a gallimaufry of linguistic paradigms that influences pronunciation to near-arbitrary effect: Dick TRICkle, Travis BICkle, Edie BricKELL, Howard CosSELL, Lefty DrieSELL, Vin DIEsel.

[Joe Fineman]

vaffa...@gmail.com writes:

> One legacy of America's immigrant heritage is a gallimaufry of
> linguistic paradigms that influences pronunciation to near-arbitrary
> effect: Dick TRICkle, Travis BICkle, Edie BricKELL, Howard CosSELL,
> Lefty DrieSELL, Vin DIEsel.

Note Theodore BiKEL, the singer, and Charles KitTEL, the physicist.
Those stresses are perverse deviations from those in the original
languages of those names. (I don't know how the bearers of those
names themselves pronounced them.)
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: Don't Run Away from a Fight married Don't Walk Away from a :||
||: Mess. :||

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Joe Fineman wrote:
>
> Note Theodore BiKEL, the singer, and Charles KitTEL, the physicist.
> Those stresses are perverse deviations from those in the original
> languages of those names.
>

There's also Elie Wiesel (meaning "weasel" in German), who
(mis-)pronounces his name WeZELL. Also heard: WyZELL.

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[David Kleinecke]

Anybody want to guess how my family pronounces Kleinecke?

[Jerry Friedman]

I hear it in my head as /'klaIn@ki/.

--
Jerry Friedman

[David Kleinecke]

You might have it right. But I have never mastered the kind of phonemics
(slashes) used here - I would write /klay'n^kiy/ - or in really vulgar
form KLEYE-NUH-KEY.

I thought it was harder to guess given how many garbles I hear.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Jerry Friedman wrote:

>
> David Kleinecke wrote:
>> Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>>> Joe Fineman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Note Theodore BiKEL, the singer, and Charles KitTEL,
>>>> the physicist.
>>>> Those stresses are perverse deviations from those in the
>>>> original languages of those names.
>>>>
>>> There's also Elie Wiesel (meaning "weasel" in German), who
>>> (mis-)pronounces his name WeZELL. Also heard: WyZELL.
>>
>> Anybody want to guess how my family pronounces Kleinecke?
>>
> I hear it in my head as /'klaIn@ki/.
>

Which is pretty close to the "correct" German pronunciation. But in
America (and France), *anything* is possible. I shudder but would not be
surprised to hear it pronounced "KLEENeck" or even "kleenECK".

[R H Draney]

Reinhold {Rey} Aman filted:

The plural of which would no doubt be "Kleenex"....

A friend of mine in high school always thought that product name was
silly...after all, he explained, nobody uses them to clean their necks....r

[Jerry Friedman]

On 3/8/14 8:59 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
> On Saturday, March 8, 2014 7:29:51 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On 3/8/14 8:20 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
>
>>> Anybody want to guess how my family pronounces Kleinecke?
>
>> I hear it in my head as /'klaIn@ki/.
>
> You might have it right. But I have never mastered the kind of phonemics
> (slashes) used here - I would write /klay'n^kiy/ - or in really vulgar
> form KLEYE-NUH-KEY.

Yes, that's what I meant. What convention uses the caret for the schwa?

> I thought it was harder to guess given how many garbles I hear.

It probably depends on what kind of pronunciations you've run into.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Django Cat]

Jerry Friedman wrote:

> On 3/8/14 8:59 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 8, 2014 7:29:51 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > On 3/8/14 8:20 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
> >
> > > > Anybody want to guess how my family pronounces Kleinecke?
> >
> > > I hear it in my head as /'klaIn@ki/.
> >
> > You might have it right. But I have never mastered the kind of
> > phonemics (slashes) used here - I would write /klay'n^kiy/ - or in
> > really vulgar form KLEYE-NUH-KEY.
>
> Yes, that's what I meant. What convention uses the caret for the
> schwa?
>
> > I thought it was harder to guess given how many garbles I hear.
>
> It probably depends on what kind of pronunciations you've run into.

Let's hear it for COlin Powell. More a vowel thing than a stress thing,
but let's hear it anyway...

DC

--

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, March 9, 2014 11:19:28 AM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 3/8/14 8:59 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 8, 2014 7:29:51 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On 3/8/14 8:20 PM, David Kleinecke wrote:

> >>> Anybody want to guess how my family pronounces Kleinecke?
> >> I hear it in my head as /'klaIn@ki/.
> > You might have it right. But I have never mastered the kind of phonemics
> > (slashes) used here - I would write /klay'n^kiy/ - or in really vulgar
> > form KLEYE-NUH-KEY.
>
> Yes, that's what I meant. What convention uses the caret for the schwa?

The IPA? It's the "turned v" for the "uh" sound.

[Mike L]

ISTR that I'm not the only Aueista who used to use the plural
"kleenices".

--
Mike.

[pauljk]

"Reinhold {Rey} Aman" <am...@sonic.net> wrote in message news:531BE74D...@sonic.net...

And plural is Kleenex?

pjk

[pauljk]

"pauljk" <paul....@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message news:lfpf57$1q9$1...@dont-email.me...

Whoops, already done, that.
Drats, should read all posts first.
pjk

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:09:39 AM UTC-4, pauljk wrote:

> > And plural is Kleenex?
> Whoops, already done, that.
> Drats, should read all posts first.

Eric Hamp insists that the plural of Xerox is Xeroges.