Literal meaning of "swings and roundabouts?"

[Daniel P. B. Smith]

There seems to be a British saying, "What you lose on the swings you gain
on the roundabouts." The figurative meaning seems to be something like
"It's a wash," or "it's close to an even tradeoff" or "the law of averages
applies" or "it all evens out in the end."

Does anyone know what the origin and _literal_ meaning of the saying is?
Carnival rides, maybe?

--
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbs...@world.std.com

[Kenneth S.]

You are correct in your interpretation of the saying. And it
does relate to carnival (funfair) rides. Roundabouts are what are
called in the U.S. carousels, and swings are swings. Beyond that, I
can't go. I have no idea why, at a funfair, what you lose on the
swings would be gained on the roundabouts.

[Jonathan Mason]

More commonly swings and roundabouts are found in public parks and
recreation areas. This equipment is provided for young children, though
also used by adolescents who are too big for it. Usually where there are
swings and roundabouts, you will also find see-saws and slides.

A see-saw is essentially a long plank with a seat on each end and a
central pivot. A person sits on each end and pushes against the ground
with their feet so as to shoot up a few feet in the air.

A slide is essentially a ladder attached to a polished metal shute. You
are supposed to go down in a sitting position, but headfirst, preferably
backwards, provides a superior ride.

I guess everyone knows what swings are. Again, swinging sitting down is
recommended, though my cousin Richard, in a 1957 demonstration of the
standing mode for the benefit of myself and a younger sister, did
miscalculate and end up with a broken arm. He later recovered and is now
financial controller of a major company.

[Truly Donovan]

Jonathan Mason wrote:

> I guess everyone knows what swings are. Again, swinging sitting down is
> recommended, though my cousin Richard, in a 1957 demonstration of the
> standing mode for the benefit of myself and a younger sister, did
> miscalculate and end up with a broken arm. He later recovered and is now
> financial controller of a major company.

Gee, that seems almost as effective as polishing up the
handles so carefully.

--
Truly Donovan
reply to truly at lunemere dot com

[Vicki Parslow-Stafford]

Kenneth S. <nim...@erols.com> wrote in article

> You are correct in your interpretation of the saying. And it
> does relate to carnival (funfair) rides. Roundabouts are what are
> called in the U.S. carousels, and swings are swings. Beyond that, I
> can't go. I have no idea why, at a funfair, what you lose on the
> swings would be gained on the roundabouts.
>

Depends on whether you're a patron or an operator I suppose, and which
ride was more popular with the patrons at a venue. Funfair operators are
(or were) a fairly close-knit itinerant subculture. Perhaps this is
another instance of a "trade" expression moving into general use cf
costermongers, travellers etc.

Vicki PS
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vicki Parslow Stafford | "Oh, many a Cup of this
Ipswich, Qld, Australia | forbidden Wine must drown
Email vl...@gil.com.au | the memory of that
Ph/fax +61 7 3281 5010 | insolence!"

[Sam Hobbs]

On Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:20:34 GMT, dpbs...@world.std.com (Daniel P. B.
Smith) wrote:

>There seems to be a British saying, "What you lose on the swings you gain
>on the roundabouts." The figurative meaning seems to be something like
>"It's a wash," or "it's close to an even tradeoff" or "the law of averages
>applies" or "it all evens out in the end."
>
>Does anyone know what the origin and _literal_ meaning of the saying is?
>Carnival rides, maybe?
>
>--
>Daniel P. B. Smith
>dpbs...@world.std.com

How about square dancing as a source for the saying. This is not my
area of knowledge, but it seems it could relate to square dancing
instead of to carnivals.

[Brian J Goggin]

On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:46:32 -0700, Truly Donovan <tr...@lunemere.com>
wrote:

>Jonathan Mason wrote:
>
>> I guess everyone knows what swings are. Again, swinging sitting down is
>> recommended, though my cousin Richard, in a 1957 demonstration of the
>> standing mode for the benefit of myself and a younger sister, did
>> miscalculate and end up with a broken arm. He later recovered and is now
>> financial controller of a major company.
>
>Gee, that seems almost as effective as polishing up the
>handles so carefully.

Nice one.

But shouldn't that be "carefullee"?

bjg

[Stan Brown]

In article <3490a8cf....@news.indigo.ie>, b...@wordwrights.ie (Brian

J Goggin) wrote:
>>Gee, that seems almost as effective as polishing up the
>>handles so carefully.
>

>But shouldn't that be "carefullee"?

Why? Oh, I know it's to conform to the G&S spelling. But why did Gilbert
spell it that way? He took rhymes "carefully" and "Navy" and changed both
terminal "y"s to "ee". Is there some reason he couldn't just leave them
both as originally spelled?

(For those who may be totally mystified: This sub-thread refers to
Gilbert and Sullivan't operetta _HMS Pinafore_, and specifically to Sir
Joseph's big patter song, explaining how he became First Lord of the
Admiralty.
I polished up that handle so carefullee
That now I am the ruler of the Queen's Navee.
are the lines of interest.)

--

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://www.concentric.net/%7eBrownsta/

[Robert Lipton]

In article <MPG.eeb31e1e...@news.concentric.net>, Stan Brown wrote:
>In article <3490a8cf....@news.indigo.ie>, b...@wordwrights.ie (Brian
>J Goggin) wrote:
>>>Gee, that seems almost as effective as polishing up the
>>>handles so carefully.
>>
>>But shouldn't that be "carefullee"?
>
>Why? Oh, I know it's to conform to the G&S spelling. But why did Gilbert
>spell it that way? He took rhymes "carefully" and "Navy" and changed both
>terminal "y"s to "ee". Is there some reason he couldn't just leave them
>both as originally spelled?
>
>(For those who may be totally mystified: This sub-thread refers to
>Gilbert and Sullivan't operetta _HMS Pinafore_, and specifically to Sir
>Joseph's big patter song, explaining how he became First Lord of the
>Admiralty.
> I polished up that handle so carefullee
> That now I am the ruler of the Queen's Navee.
>are the lines of interest.)
>

I suspect that Gilbert's idiolect had the terminal 'y' pronounced as a
long 'i'. Consider this exchange from IOLANTHE, Act 1 (Modern Library
edition p.251)

STREPHON
A shepherd I --

ALL
A shepherd he!

STREPHON
Of Arcady --

ALL
Of Arcadee!

Alternate lines rhyme. The D'Oyley Carte recordings are in agreement
with this.

Perhaps this was considered a posh accent.

It has just struck me that this might be hypercorrection at work: the
lower-class Strephon (who, despite his fairy & noble ancestry is, after all,
but a lowly shepherd), believes that, as 'y' is pronounced as 'i' in the
middle of the word, it should likewise be sounded that way at the end.
Everyone else knows better.

Bob

[Robert Lieblich]

Stan Brown wrote:
>
> In article <3490a8cf....@news.indigo.ie>, b...@wordwrights.ie (Brian
> J Goggin) wrote:
> >>Gee, that seems almost as effective as polishing up the
> >>handles so carefully.
> >
> >But shouldn't that be "carefullee"?
>
> Why? Oh, I know it's to conform to the G&S spelling. But why did Gilbert
> spell it that way? He took rhymes "carefully" and "Navy" and changed both
> terminal "y"s to "ee". Is there some reason he couldn't just leave them
> both as originally spelled?
>
> (For those who may be totally mystified: This sub-thread refers to
> Gilbert and Sullivan't operetta _HMS Pinafore_, and specifically to Sir
> Joseph's big patter song, explaining how he became First Lord of the
> Admiralty.
> I polished up that handle so carefullee
> That now I am the ruler of the Queen's Navee.
> are the lines of interest.)

It's all Sullivan's fault. He wrote a tune that wouldn't accomodate a
feminine rhyme.

Bob Lieblich

[Mark Barton]

On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 5:19, Stan Brown <mailto:brow...@concentric.net> wrote:
>In article <3490a8cf....@news.indigo.ie>, b...@wordwrights.ie (Brian
>J Goggin) wrote:
>>>Gee, that seems almost as effective as polishing up the
>>>handles so carefully.
>>
>>But shouldn't that be "carefullee"?
>
>Why? Oh, I know it's to conform to the G&S spelling. But why did Gilbert
>spell it that way? He took rhymes "carefully" and "Navy" and changed both
>terminal "y"s to "ee". Is there some reason he couldn't just leave them
>both as originally spelled?
>
>(For those who may be totally mystified: This sub-thread refers to
>Gilbert and Sullivan't operetta _HMS Pinafore_, and specifically to Sir
>Joseph's big patter song, explaining how he became First Lord of the
>Admiralty.
> I polished up that handle so carefullee
> That now I am the ruler of the Queen's Navee.
>are the lines of interest.)

It's just to give notice, to Sullivan and to the cast, of the sort of
accentuation required to make the song work. I think that the rhythm that
Sullivan delivered for "Queen's Navee" is almost certainly what Gilbert had
in mind, but despite its familiarity it's actually quite unnatural and the
last thing that a competent composer would do if the aim were not comic
effect.

Cheers,

Mark B.

----------------
Please remove the spam filter from my address before replying.

[Geoff Butler]

Stan Brown <brow...@concentric.net> writes:
>Why? Oh, I know it's to conform to the G&S spelling. But why did Gilbert
>spell it that way? He took rhymes "carefully" and "Navy" and changed both
>terminal "y"s to "ee". Is there some reason he couldn't just leave them
>both as originally spelled?

I've always assumed it was a matter of the unnatural stress pattern.

-ler

[William C Waterhouse]

In article <EKCyE...@world.std.com>, dpbs...@world.std.com

(Daniel P. B. Smith) writes:
> There seems to be a British saying, "What you lose on the swings you gain
> on the roundabouts." The figurative meaning seems to be something like
> "It's a wash," or "it's close to an even tradeoff" or "the law of averages
> applies" or "it all evens out in the end."
>
> Does anyone know what the origin and _literal_ meaning of the saying is?
> Carnival rides, maybe?

We have had some discussion of the "children's rides" idea,
but obviously it has not produced any good justification for the
meaning of the saying. I suggest that the idea is supposed to
be much more general, with roundabout used simply in the sense of
"so as to pass or turn right around" (OED II, sense 2 of "round about").
This seems to be supported by the first OED II citation of the saying,
from 1912 (a writer named P. R. Chalmers):

"For up an' down an' round, said 'e, goes all appointed things.
An' losses on the roundabouts means profits on the swings."

William C. Waterhouse
Penn State

[Stan Brown]

In article <NQ1pkLAe...@gbutler.demon.co.uk>,

That makes sense to me. Thanks to you and the others who posted that
explanation.

[Virginia E Hench]

: (Daniel P. B. Smith) writes:
: > There seems to be a British saying, "What you lose on the swings you gain
: > on the roundabouts." The figurative meaning seems to be something like
: > "It's a wash," or "it's close to an even tradeoff" or "the law of averages
: > applies" or "it all evens out in the end."
: >
: > Does anyone know what the origin and _literal_ meaning of the saying is?
: > Carnival rides, maybe?

A roundabout is also a term for what Americans call a
Merry-Go-Round.

My Oxford's Unabridged has the following:

"..4.b. Phr. To make up on the swings what one loses on
the roundabouts, (with allusion to two prominent features
of fairs), to make 'things' balance. ..."

Aloha, Ginny Hench
he...@hawaii.edu

[zoro...@zenofzero.net]

On Friday, November 28, 1997 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
> There seems to be a British saying, "What you lose on the swings you gain
> on the roundabouts." The figurative meaning seems to be something like
> "It's a wash," or "it's close to an even tradeoff" or "the law of averages
> applies" or "it all evens out in the end."
>
> Does anyone know what the origin and _literal_ meaning of the saying is?
> Carnival rides, maybe?
>

> --
> Daniel P. B. Smith

The origin:

Roundabouts and Swings
by
Patrick R Chalmers

It was early last September nigh to Framlin'am-on-Sea,
An' 'twas Fair-day come to-morrow, an' the time was after tea,
An' I met a painted caravan adown a dusty lane,
A Pharaoh with his waggons comin' jolt an' creak an' strain;
A cheery cove an' sunburnt, bold o' eye and wrinkled up,
An' beside him on the splashboard sat a brindled tarrier pup,
An' a lurcher wise as Solomon an' lean as fiddle-strings
Was joggin' in the dust along 'is roundabouts and swings.

"Goo'-day," said 'e; "Goo'-day," said I; "an' 'ow d'you find things go,
An' what's the chance o' millions when you runs a travellin' show?"
"I find," said 'e, "things very much as 'ow I've always found,
For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
Said 'e, "The job's the very spit o' what it always were,
It's bread and bacon mostly when the dog don't catch a 'are;
But lookin' at it broad, an' while it ain't no merchant king's,
What's lost upon the roundabouts we pulls up on the swings!"

"Goo' luck," said 'e; "Goo' luck," said I; "you've put it past a doubt;
An' keep that lurcher on the road, the gamekeepers is out."
'E thumped upon the footboard an' 'e lumbered on again
To meet a gold-dust sunset down the owl-light in the lane;
An' the moon she climbed the 'azels, while a night-jar seemed to spin
That Pharaoh's wisdom o'er again, 'is sooth of lose-and-win;
For "up an' down an' round," said 'e, "goes all appointed things,
An' losses on the roundabouts means profits on the swings!"

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2015-12-25 14:00:12 +0000, zoro...@zenofzero.net said:

> On Friday, November 28, 1997 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
>> There seems to be a British saying, "What you lose on the swings you gain
>> on the roundabouts." The figurative meaning seems to be something like
>> "It's a wash," or "it's close to an even tradeoff" or "the law of averages
>> applies" or "it all evens out in the end."
>>
>> Does anyone know what the origin and _literal_ meaning of the saying is?
>> Carnival rides, maybe?
>>
>> --
>> Daniel P. B. Smith

I expect Daniel P. B. Smith has been sitting anxiously in front of his
computer for 18 years waiting in increasing desperation for your reply.

--
athel

[Zoroaster]

On Friday, December 25, 2015 at 10:24:21 AM UTC-8, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

Why do you assume that I was attempting to inform Smith, rather than (for example) attempting to inform someone else who arrived at this page via an internet search or (as another example) seeking to identify snarky commentators? Was your goal to assist others or to try to bring someone down to your level?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Strange, that. When I see a message that begins

>On Friday, November 28, 1997 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
>>> There seems to be a British saying, "What you lose on the swings you gain
>>> on the roundabouts." The figurative meaning seems to be something like
>>> "It's a wash," or "it's close to an even tradeoff" or "the law of averages
>>> applies" or "it all evens out in the end."
>>>
>>> Does anyone know what the origin and _literal_ meaning of the saying is?
>>> Carnival rides, maybe?

I tend to assume that the response is a response to that.

If you'd lurked a bit before posting you'd have known that we get lots
of "answers" from Google Gropers to very old queries. They don't
usually assist anyone, and certainly not the person who asked the
original question. The only thing unusual about your contributions is
that you didn't immediately disappear without trace your first post.


--
athel

[Peter T. Daniels]

How many times do you have to be told that they are not "Google Gro[u]pers"
but users of Google-powered portable devices, such as (IIRC) Android phones?

> to very old queries. They don't
> usually assist anyone, and certainly not the person who asked the
> original question. The only thing unusual about your contributions is
> that you didn't immediately disappear without trace your first post.

Which suggests that either this one is _not_ of that origin, or else Google
has improved the Android(?) interface.

[Lewis]

In message <de7jhb...@mid.individual.net>

That's not really how USENET works. The reply is certainly prompted by
that, but often replies are not to the post being replyied to. They may
be simply to the general topic, they may be countering a point brought
up in an earlier post, or they may simply be to provide a reply to a
question even if the original poster is long gone.

Granted, the recent screw up by Google in the googlegroups interface
that conceals the age of the post and doesn't provide a "this post is
over 5 years old, are you sure you want to reply?" check makes
resurrected threads more common and therefore more annoying, so there is
that.

--
'What shall we do?' said Twoflower. 'Panic?' said Rincewind hopefully.

[Peter T. Daniels]

"Recent"? It hasn't done any such thing in 9-10 years.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <slrnn7t9vr....@amelia.local>,

I don't find the resurrected threads annoying. I think most of them are
on usage so they can be an additional source for discussion of English
usage. This one was interesting because I have been confused by swings
and roundabouts for some time and had even invented an explanation that
made sense to me so I could read over the phrase. This explanation is no
doubt without merit.

--
charles

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2015-12-26 14:42:41 +0000, Lewis said:

> [ … ]

>>> Why do you assume that I was attempting to inform Smith, rather than
>>> (for example) attempting to inform someone else who arrived at this
>>> page via an internet search or (as another example) seeking to identify
>>> snarky commentators? Was your goal to assist others or to try to bring
>>> someone down to your level?
>
>> Strange, that. When I see a message that begins
>
>>> On Friday, November 28, 1997 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:
>>>>> There seems to be a British saying, "What you lose on the swings you gain
>>>>> on the roundabouts." The figurative meaning seems to be something like
>>>>> "It's a wash," or "it's close to an even tradeoff" or "the law of averages
>>>>> applies" or "it all evens out in the end."
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know what the origin and _literal_ meaning of the saying is?
>>>>> Carnival rides, maybe?
>
>> I tend to assume that the response is a response to that.
>
> That's not really how USENET works. The reply is certainly prompted by
> that, but often replies are not to the post being replyied to. They may
> be simply to the general topic, they may be countering a point brought
> up in an earlier post, or they may simply be to provide a reply to a
> question even if the original poster is long gone.

OK, but even then it would be nice if the responder were to start by
saying: "This is a very old post, but I think it is not without
interest to revive it:"

>
> Granted, the recent screw up by Google in the googlegroups interface
> that conceals the age of the post and doesn't provide a "this post is
> over 5 years old, are you sure you want to reply?" check makes
> resurrected threads more common and therefore more annoying, so there is
> that.


--

athel

[Snidely]

Remember Friday, when zoro...@zenofzero.net asked plainitively:

This kind of sounds to me like someone taking a common spoken usage and
giving it an appearance in print.

Also, the images in the poem are getting awfully dusty these days.
"Sitting on the splashboard" suggests horse-drawn. Waggons (myE:
wagons) is plural but were they pulled by one team (and thus a limit of
one or two connections) or were there separate teams with silent
drivers on board? What does a waggon of swings and roundabouts look
like?

These days, the carnival rides I encountner move on trucks (1 truck per
ride, usually), the merry-go-round has a superstructure even if the
calliope is electronic, and swings would now be a capsule that rocks to
and then through an inverted vertical position. There will be at least
5 "kiddie rides", like little trucks followig a track, and maybe a
centipede that goes over little hills, and lately a bounce house or a
ball pool (plastic boalls about orange or grapefruit size). There may
be a slide race.

The bigger kids will ride The Hammer, or a bigger slide race, and the
Twirler with 3 arms each with 3 pods, and maybe a ferris wheel or a
drop ride. Oh, I forgot the Drum, where you get spun fast enough to be
stuck on the outside wall when they drop the floor.

All those trucks mean a lot of drivers, who are mostly the carnies
taking your tickets.

/dps

--
Trust, but verify.

[Snidely]

On Saturday, Snidely queried:

As a special holiday treat for would-be editors, I have provided some
sample material.

/dps


--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>

[Zoroaster]

On Saturday, December 26, 2015 at 12:00:32 PM UTC-8, Snidely wrote:
> On Saturday, Snidely queried:

> > Remember Friday, when zoroaster asked plainitively:

Gees, this is a strange group / forum! I'll just mention how I arrived here and then leave.

A week-or-so ago, I tried to console my (grown) daughter with the phrase that my (Irish) mother would say to me in similar circumstances, more than 60 years ago: "What you lose upon the roundabouts, you gain upon the swings."

I was surprised when my daughter responded, "Whaddya mean?" So, after commenting on the sad state of American education, I tried to explain the meaning and then searched on the internet for the (~ century) old poem in which the phrase first appeared (and which I had read in school when I was a kid): the quoted poem by (the Irishman!) Chalmers, which I consider to be one of the greatest poems ever written. Seeking further information for my daughter, I then searched further on the internet, leading me to this site (among many other sites).

Here, I was surprised to see that so many posters not only didn't know the source (although one did!) but also confused the issue (such as the post I've quoted here). I thought I might be able to help future searchers if I displayed the (beautiful) poem by Chalmers. I was then disappointed that someone (Athel) just responded with a snarky comment, making me feel like an unwelcome guest. Well, fine: I don't want to join any group (if that's what this is); all I wanted to do was set the record straight -- maybe for some other father trying to help his daughter.

[Katy Jennison]

On 27/12/2015 10:58, Zoroaster wrote:
> On Saturday, December 26, 2015 at 12:00:32 PM UTC-8, Snidely wrote:
>> On Saturday, Snidely queried:
>>> Remember Friday, when zoroaster asked plainitively:
>>>> On Friday, November 28, 1997 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, Daniel P. B. Smith
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> There seems to be a British saying, "What you lose on the swings you gain
>>>>> on the roundabouts." The figurative meaning seems to be something like
>>>>> "It's a wash," or "it's close to an even tradeoff" or "the law of averages
>>>>> applies" or "it all evens out in the end."
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know what the origin and _literal_ meaning of the saying is?
>>>>> Carnival rides, maybe?
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Daniel P. B. Smith
>>>>
>>>> The origin:
>>>>
>>>> Roundabouts and Swings
>>>> by Patrick R Chalmers

{Lots snipped]

>> As a special holiday treat for would-be editors, I have provided some
>> sample material.

>> The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
>> a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
>> <http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>
>

> Gees, this is a strange group / forum! I'll just mention how I arrived hereand then leave.

>
> A week-or-so ago, I tried to console my (grown) daughter with the phrase that my (Irish) mother would say to me in similar circumstances, more than 60 years ago: "What you lose upon the roundabouts, you gain upon the swings."
>
> I was surprised when my daughter responded, "Whaddya mean?" So, after commenting on the sad state of American education, I tried to explain the meaning and then searched on the internet for the (~ century) old poem in which the phrase first appeared (and which I had read in school when I was a kid): the quoted poem by (the Irishman!) Chalmers, which I consider to be one of the greatest poems ever written. Seeking further information for my daughter, I then searched further on the internet, leading me to this site (among many other sites).
>
> Here, I was surprised to see that so many posters not only didn't know the source (although one did!) but also confused the issue (such as the post I've quoted here). I thought I might be able to help future searchers if I displayed the (beautiful) poem by Chalmers. I was then disappointed that someone (Athel) just responded with a snarky comment, making me feel like an unwelcome guest. Well, fine: I don't want to join any group (if that's what this is); all I wanted to do was set the record straight -- maybe for some other father trying to help his daughter.
>

Don't feel you have to disappear. There are things you need to know
about this group, though, in order to make sense of what's happening.

One is that every now and again a post (a message) will re-surface from
several years back (in this case, from 1997), and sometimes people reply
to it without noticing the date, and as if they expected the original
questioner to be still hanging around waiting for a reply. That often
draws the equivalent of laughter from other people who did notice the
date. So if you're picking up on an old post which has current
relevance, it's wise to add a sentence or two of explanation (which of
course you've now done).

Second, many of the people who post in this group have been posting for
some years, and so they know each other fairly well (in an on-line
sense). There's a certain amount of banter and in-joking.

Third, the original topic, which appears in the Subject line, may be no
guide at all to the current subject of a particular thread. Like any
real-life conversation, ideas trigger different ideas and the discussion
goes off at a tangent, as a train of thought does. Regular posters (and
presumably regular lurkers) value the twists and turns of discussion and
argument, and learn to ignore threads which aren't interesting to them.

Fourth, there are contributors here from all over the world, and it's
also fascinating (to some of us) to find out about the differences of
meaning which different countries assign to the same English word, and
by extension to find out more about their culture and customs.

Fifth, some contributors are among the top scholars in their field;
others of us are amateurs (in both senses of the word).

And finally, there are a few personal animosities between particular
individuals here, as there are in any group of people: don't take it
personally!

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 5:58:35 AM UTC-5, Zoroaster wrote:

> A week-or-so ago, I tried to console my (grown) daughter with the phrase that my (Irish) mother would say to me in similar circumstances, more than 60 years ago: "What you lose upon the roundabouts, you gain upon the swings."

It was discussed here a lot more recently than 1997, when various Brits
insisted that it referred to playground equipment rather than to the
explanation I was given when I first heard the expression (not part
of American English) that "roundabouts" are 'traffic circles' (what you
call "rotaries") and "swings" are straight parts of roads.

I don't recall that anyone mentioned a poem. The one you quote above is
so crammed with alien vocabulary as to be all but incomprehensible,
and doesn't illuminate the literal meaning of the phrase. As Snidely,
also American, suggests, it looks like it might be an attempt at a "folk
etymology" of a familiar but opaque phrase (what do you suppose is the
background of "raining cats and dogs"?)

[Charles Bishop]

In article <de855m...@mid.individual.net>,

Part of the problem with that may be the reviver may not recognize the
age of the post. If I understand correctly, someone, searching for
information, finds, as one source, a long ago post from aue. They may
not know what USENET is and think they are replying to a current
discussion.

>
> >
> > Granted, the recent screw up by Google in the googlegroups interface
> > that conceals the age of the post and doesn't provide a "this post is
> > over 5 years old, are you sure you want to reply?" check makes
> > resurrected threads more common and therefore more annoying, so there is
> > that.

What I said.

--
charles

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 06:14:46 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 5:58:35 AM UTC-5, Zoroaster wrote:
>
>> A week-or-so ago, I tried to console my (grown) daughter with the phrase that my (Irish) mother would say to me in similar circumstances, more than 60 years ago: "What you lose upon the roundabouts, you gain upon the swings."
>
>It was discussed here a lot more recently than 1997, when various Brits
>insisted that it referred to playground equipment rather than to the
>explanation I was given when I first heard the expression (not part
>of American English) that "roundabouts" are 'traffic circles' (what you
>call "rotaries") and "swings" are straight parts of roads.

There were good reasons for that insistence by Brits.

The swings-and-roundabouts phrase predates the use of "roundabout" for a
traffic circle by some years.

OED:

roundabout, n. and adj.

4. orig. and chiefly Brit.
a. A revolving machine or apparatus on which people (esp. children)
may ride for amusement, spec. one in a fairground or playground;
= merry-go-round n. 1.
to gain on the swings and lose on the roundabouts: see swing n.2
11b.
1763 Brit. Mag. 4 50 There was a round-about for children to
ride in, and all sorts of toys sold as at other fairs.
1795 C. Este Journey through Flanders 53 There is a round-about
as in the apparatus for second childhood at Chantilli.
....

swing, n.2

11.
b. Colloq. phr. to gain on the swings and lose on the roundabouts
and varr., according to which one's losses in one quarter balance
one's gains in another. Also allusively.

1912 P. R. Chalmers Green Days & Blue Days 20 For ‘up an' down

an' round,’ said 'e, goes all appointed things, An' losses on the
roundabouts means profits on the swings!

....
That refers to swings and roundabouts in a fairground (carnival rides)
in which customers pay per ride on the swing or roundabout.

merry-go-round, n. and adj.

A. n.
1.
a. An amusement at a fairground or similar entertainment, consisting
of a large revolving mechanism with model horses, cars, etc., on
which people (esp. children) ride round and round (sometimes also
up and down), often to musical accompaniment; a carousel.

Back to "roundabout":

8. orig. and chiefly Brit. A junction of several roads consisting of
a central (usually circular) island around which traffic moves in
one direction.
Vehicular roundabouts developed from large-scale circuses or
rond-points in France and America (cf. rond-point n. 1). Typically
smaller in size, British roundabouts are sometimes distinguished
from similar junctions by the rule in which oncoming traffic must
give way to traffic moving around the central island. traffic
circle and rotary are the more common terms in America

1926 Times 27 Apr. 17/5 A protest should be made..against the
uncouth, Latinese word ‘gyratory’ to express the new traffic
arrangements... Why not use the simple English word ‘round-about’?
1926 Times 02 Nov. 18 (heading) Marble Arch roundabout.
....


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Thanks for these comments, Katie. I agree with all of them, but I have
a couple of additions:

>>
>
> Don't feel you have to disappear. There are things you need to know
> about this group, though, in order to make sense of what's happening.
>
> One is that every now and again a post (a message) will re-surface from
> several years back (in this case, from 1997), and sometimes people
> reply to it without noticing the date, and as if they expected the
> original questioner to be still hanging around waiting for a reply.
> That often draws the equivalent of laughter from other people who did
> notice the date. So if you're picking up on an old post which has
> current relevance, it's wise to add a sentence or two of explanation
> (which of course you've now done).
>
> Second, many of the people who post in this group have been posting for
> some years, and so they know each other fairly well (in an on-line
> sense). There's a certain amount of banter and in-joking.
>
> Third, the original topic, which appears in the Subject line, may be no
> guide at all to the current subject of a particular thread. Like any
> real-life conversation, ideas trigger different ideas and the
> discussion goes off at a tangent, as a train of thought does. Regular
> posters (and presumably regular lurkers) value the twists and turns of
> discussion and argument, and learn to ignore threads which aren't
> interesting to them.

Wandering off topic is, of course, very common, but it doesn't usually
start with the very first reply. Lewis was saying upthread that I was
wrong to say that just because a post is presented as a reply to a
question doesn't mean that it is a reply to that question, but it
nearly all cases, it is. I have just check 20 recent threads, and in 19
of them the first reponse was clearly responding to the first post. The
exception ("The date of a piece of information") may not be an
exception because I only have a small part of the first reponse, or it
may just be because it comes from Stefan.

>
> Fourth, there are contributors here from all over the world, and it's
> also fascinating (to some of us) to find out about the differences of
> meaning which different countries assign to the same English word, and
> by extension to find out more about their culture and customs.
>
> Fifth, some contributors are among the top scholars in their field;
> others of us are amateurs (in both senses of the word).
>
> And finally, there are a few personal animosities between particular
> individuals here, as there are in any group of people: don't take it
> personally!

I'm interested to see that you count "second, third, fourth, fifth,
finally", because that's what I do, but I think most people don't. I
was told WIWAL that one should say "first, secondly, thirdly …", but I
always thought that was ridiculous, and that if I couldn't add -ly to
"first" I wouldn't add it to the others either.


--
athel

[Katy Jennison]

On 27/12/2015 14:14, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 5:58:35 AM UTC-5, Zoroaster wrote:
>
>> A week-or-so ago, I tried to console my (grown) daughter with the phrase that my (Irish) mother would say to me in similar circumstances, more than 60 years ago: "What you lose upon the roundabouts, you gain upon the swings."
>
> It was discussed here a lot more recently than 1997, when various Brits
> insisted that it referred to playground equipment rather than to the
> explanation I was given when I first heard the expression (not part
> of American English) that "roundabouts" are 'traffic circles' (what you
> call "rotaries") and "swings" are straight parts of roads.

Playground, or fair-ground. In the old days, swing-boats, and the big
roundabouts with horses going up and down - called carousels in the US
and,increasingly, here in the UK.

>
> I don't recall that anyone mentioned a poem. The one you quote above is
> so crammed with alien vocabulary as to be all but incomprehensible,
> and doesn't illuminate the literal meaning of the phrase.

No? The main character is a travelling showman who takes his set of
swings and his roundabout with him and sets it up for a day or two at
fairs in towns and villages, where people come and pay for rides. And
if, at one location, not many are interested in swinging on the swings,
the chances are that the roundabouts will do well, and vice versa.

What I'm not entirely convinced of, however, is that the poem is the
origin of the saying, though I see Wikipedia thinks it is. I've known
the saying since my childhood (I was born the year Chalmers died), but I
haven't met the poem until now. But here's a website about Chalmers and
the relevance of the poem to his other profession of banking:

http://interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/the-interesting-origins-of-the-phrase-swings-and-roundabouts/

As Snidely,
> also American, suggests, it looks like it might be an attempt at a "folk
> etymology" of a familiar but opaque phrase (what do you suppose is the
> background of "raining cats and dogs"?)
>
>> I was surprised when my daughter responded, "Whaddya mean?" So, after commenting on the sad state of American education, I tried to explain the meaning and then searched on the internet for the (~ century) old poem in which the phrase first appeared (and which I had read in school when I was a kid): the quoted poem by (the Irishman!) Chalmers, which I consider to be one of the greatest poems ever written. Seeking further information for my daughter, I then searched further on the internet, leading me to this site (among many other sites).
>>
>> Here, I was surprised to see that so many posters not only didn't know the source (although one did!) but also confused the issue (such as the post I've quoted here). I thought I might be able to help future searchers if I displayed the (beautiful) poem by Chalmers. I was then disappointed that someone (Athel) just responded with a snarky comment, making me feel like an unwelcome guest. Well, fine: I don't want to join any group (if that's what this is); all I wanted to do was set the record straight -- maybe for some other father trying to help his daughter.
>

--
Katy Jennison

[Katy Jennison]

On 27/12/2015 16:39, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2015-12-27 12:31:54 +0000, Katy Jennison said:

[Lots snipped]

>> Fourth, there are contributors here from all over the world, and it's
>> also fascinating (to some of us) to find out about the differences of
>> meaning which different countries assign to the same English word, and
>> by extension to find out more about their culture and customs.
>>
>> Fifth, some contributors are among the top scholars in their field;
>> others of us are amateurs (in both senses of the word).
>>
>> And finally, there are a few personal animosities between particular
>> individuals here, as there are in any group of people: don't take it
>> personally!
>
> I'm interested to see that you count "second, third, fourth, fifth,
> finally", because that's what I do, but I think most people don't. I was
> told WIWAL that one should say "first, secondly, thirdly …", but I
> always thought that was ridiculous, and that if I couldn't add -ly to
> "first" I wouldn't add it to the others either.
>

I don't think I ever heard that instruction, and in this case I didn't
give it any thought, but I agree that I wouldn't be likely to say
"thirdly", "fourthly", etc, purely because it sounds both unnecessary
and less euphonious. But ... "finally"? No-one would say "final" in
this context. Contrariwise, I might equally have chosen "last" but not
"lastly". Hmm.

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

An obvious difficulty with accepting that poem as the origin of the
saying is that the saying could have been in use in the enclosed world
of itinerant showmen for years before it escaped into the wider world
via the poem.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 11:39:49 AM UTC-5, Katy Jennison wrote:
> On 27/12/2015 14:14, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 5:58:35 AM UTC-5, Zoroaster wrote:
> >
> >> A week-or-so ago, I tried to console my (grown) daughter with the phrase that my (Irish) mother would say to me in similar circumstances, more than 60 years ago: "What you lose upon the roundabouts, you gain upon the swings."
> >
> > It was discussed here a lot more recently than 1997, when various Brits
> > insisted that it referred to playground equipment rather than to the
> > explanation I was given when I first heard the expression (not part
> > of American English) that "roundabouts" are 'traffic circles' (what you
> > call "rotaries") and "swings" are straight parts of roads.
>
> Playground, or fair-ground. In the old days, swing-boats, and the big
> roundabouts with horses going up and down - called carousels in the US
> and,increasingly, here in the UK.
>
> >
> > I don't recall that anyone mentioned a poem. The one you quote above is
> > so crammed with alien vocabulary as to be all but incomprehensible,
> > and doesn't illuminate the literal meaning of the phrase.
>
> No? The main character is a travelling showman who takes his set of
> swings and his roundabout with him and sets it up for a day or two at
> fairs in towns and villages, where people come and pay for rides. And
> if, at one location, not many are interested in swinging on the swings,
> the chances are that the roundabouts will do well, and vice versa.

As I said, none of that is apparent to someone who doesn't know the areal,
social, and professional jargon deployed in the doggerel.

[David Kleinecke]

Whatever the origin of the saying it hadn't reached California in my youth.
The carnies came through and we kids did the rides. But none of the rides
we rode were called "swings" and none "roundabouts".

And I never heard of Chalmers before or saw that poem.

[Isabelle C]

Le 27/12/2015 17:39, Katy Jennison a écrit :
[about Chalmers's poem as the origin of the saying "What you lose on the
swings you gain on the roundabouts"]

>
> What I'm not entirely convinced of, however, is that the poem is the
> origin of the saying, though I see Wikipedia thinks it is. I've known
> the saying since my childhood (I was born the year Chalmers died), but I
> haven't met the poem until now. But here's a website about Chalmers and
> the relevance of the poem to his other profession of banking:
>
> http://interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/the-interesting-origins-of-the-phrase-swings-and-roundabouts/

Searching books.google for occurences of "gain on the roundabouts" or
some of its variations, with "made", "made up", "gained" and so on
before 1912, the date of publication of Chalmers's poem, has proved
quite infuriating as Google mostly provides snippets, which for the main
part seem to come from rather technical publications, and which are
difficult to decipher.

Two quotes which I found interesting and which both predate Chalmers's poem:

The first one is to be found in Fore's Sporting Notes & Sketches,
published in 1907
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Fores_Sporting_Notes_Sketches_v10_1000518999/301

"It should be possible for a racecourse to pay its way, even if a
sovereign only were charged to cover all admission expenses, and
probably less than that. What would be lost on the swings would be
gained on the roundabouts"

The second quote is taken from Via Rhodesia; a journey through Southern
Africa, by Charlotte Mansfield, published in 1911. It's on page 77. The
author describes Salisbury:

"In Salisbury what one loses on the cocoanut shies one makes up on the
roundabouts; one may complain of the unnecessary space between the
public buildings for a busy man or woman, but no one can find fault wuth
the delightful sports grounds..."

I don't know if the "cocoanut shies" is Charlotte Mansfield's own
invention or if, as I suspect, it is an alternative version of the
saying as we know it and which she repeated.

I'd say we're firmly on carnival ground here.

--
Isabelle

[Janet]

In article <n5peo8$pj0$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid says...

Coconut shies are a classic component of travelling fairgrounds in UK
Coconuts are balanced on a stand, you pay to try to knock them off by
throwing (shying) a ball. In my childhood, if you knocked off a coconut
you could either win the coconut or a live goldfish.

Janet.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 3:41:23 PM UTC-5, Janet wrote:
> In article <n5peo8$pj0$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid says...

> > Le 27/12/2015 17:39, Katy Jennison a écrit :
> > [about Chalmers's poem as the origin of the saying "What you lose on the
> > swings you gain on the roundabouts"]
> > > What I'm not entirely convinced of, however, is that the poem is the
> > > origin of the saying, though I see Wikipedia thinks it is. I've known
> > > the saying since my childhood (I was born the year Chalmers died), but I
> > > haven't met the poem until now. But here's a website about Chalmers and
> > > the relevance of the poem to his other profession of banking:
> > >
> > > http://interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/the-interesting-origins-of-the-phrase-swings-and-roundabouts/
> >
> > Searching books.google for occurences of "gain on the roundabouts" or
> > some of its variations, with "made", "made up", "gained" and so on
> > before 1912, the date of publication of Chalmers's poem, has proved
> > quite infuriating as Google mostly provides snippets, which for the main
> > part seem to come from rather technical publications, and which are
> > difficult to decipher.

But search "lose on the roundabouts," because you go slower when driving
around a traffic circle than when driving on a straightaway. That's probably
how an American would say it because that's the explanation we were given
for the quaint British expression.

Plus, the prosody is better: ending on a single strong syllable rather than
two weak syllables of a three-syllable word.

> > Two quotes which I found interesting and which both predate Chalmers's poem:
> > The first one is to be found in Fore's Sporting Notes & Sketches,
> > published in 1907
> > http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Fores_Sporting_Notes_Sketches_v10_1000518999/301
> > "It should be possible for a racecourse to pay its way, even if a
> > sovereign only were charged to cover all admission expenses, and
> > probably less than that. What would be lost on the swings would be
> > gained on the roundabouts"

literal.

> > The second quote is taken from Via Rhodesia; a journey through Southern
> > Africa, by Charlotte Mansfield, published in 1911. It's on page 77. The
> > author describes Salisbury:
> > "In Salisbury what one loses on the cocoanut shies one makes up on the
> > roundabouts; one may complain of the unnecessary space between the
> > public buildings for a busy man or woman, but no one can find fault wuth
> > the delightful sports grounds..."
> > I don't know if the "cocoanut shies" is Charlotte Mansfield's own
> > invention or if, as I suspect, it is an alternative version of the
> > saying as we know it and which she repeated.
> > I'd say we're firmly on carnival ground here.

again, literal. But why would it have escaped into proverbial use?

> Coconut shies are a classic component of travelling fairgrounds in UK
> Coconuts are balanced on a stand, you pay to try to knock them off by
> throwing (shying) a ball. In my childhood, if you knocked off a coconut
> you could either win the coconut or a live goldfish.

Take the coconunt. It'll last longer.

[Intertextuality.]

[James Hogg]

Indeed. Another variant, this time completely roundabout-free, from 1908:
"What one loses on the cocoanuts one makes up for on the swings."

--
James

[James Hogg]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 3:41:23 PM UTC-5, Janet wrote:
>>> Searching books.google for occurences of "gain on the
>>> roundabouts" or some of its variations, with "made", "made up",
>>> "gained" and so on before 1912, the date of publication of
>>> Chalmers's poem, has proved quite infuriating as Google mostly
>>> provides snippets, which for the main part seem to come from
>>> rather technical publications, and which are difficult to
>>> decipher.
>
> But search "lose on the roundabouts," because you go slower when
> driving around a traffic circle than when driving on a straightaway.
> That's probably how an American would say it because that's the
> explanation we were given for the quaint British expression.

That folk etymology is wrong and you should forget you ever heard it.
Peter Duncanson has shown that the fairground saying existed well before
any vehicle ever had to slow down to negotiate a roundabout, and
Isabelle's examples confirm the primacy of the fairground context.

--
James

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 20:41:14 -0000, Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote:

>>
>> I'd say we're firmly on carnival ground here.
>
> Coconut shies are a classic component of travelling fairgrounds in UK
> Coconuts are balanced on a stand, you pay to try to knock them off by
>throwing (shying) a ball. In my childhood, if you knocked off a coconut
>you could either win the coconut or a live goldfish.
>
> Janet.

Not that I'm relating it to this discussion, but we have the same
"game of skill" at our fairs. Instead of coconuts, they are usually
stacked (what look like) pint milk bottles. They are actually
concrete or some other heavy material.

http://www.unitedrent-all-omaha.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/milkbottletoss-530x552.jpg

The above photo shows six, but the arrangement I've seen usually has
just three. The object is to throw three balls at the stack and knock
all three bottles completely off the platform. At least one of the
bottles on the bottom will be so heavy that it's almost impossible to
dislodge it from the platform. It doesn't count just to knock down
the stack; the bottles must be knocked completely off the supporting
platform.

We don't have the word "shies/shying", though.

Also related, many Americans have heard the song "I've got a lovely
bunch of coconuts" with the words "a penny a pitch", we might know the
coconut connection.

The song was in a Judy Garland movie ("I Could Go On Singing"), but I
don't know the context.

Another American connection:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf670orHKcA


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Katy Jennison]

On 27/12/2015 21:08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> But search "lose on the roundabouts," because you go slower when driving
> around a traffic circle than when driving on a straightaway. That's probably
> how an American would say it because that's the explanation we were given
> for the quaint British expression.

Who exactly gave you this explanation?

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter T. Daniels]

That explains neither the inferior prosody of the early examples so far found,
nor how and why it escaped into proverbhood.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 4:39:28 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 20:41:14 -0000, Janet <nob...@home.org> wrote:

> >> I'd say we're firmly on carnival ground here.
> > Coconut shies are a classic component of travelling fairgrounds in UK
> > Coconuts are balanced on a stand, you pay to try to knock them off by
> >throwing (shying) a ball. In my childhood, if you knocked off a coconut
> >you could either win the coconut or a live goldfish.
>

> Not that I'm relating it to this discussion, but we have the same
> "game of skill" at our fairs. Instead of coconuts, they are usually
> stacked (what look like) pint milk bottles. They are actually
> concrete or some other heavy material.
>
> http://www.unitedrent-all-omaha.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/milkbottletoss-530x552.jpg
>
> The above photo shows six, but the arrangement I've seen usually has
> just three. The object is to throw three balls at the stack and knock
> all three bottles completely off the platform. At least one of the
> bottles on the bottom will be so heavy that it's almost impossible to
> dislodge it from the platform. It doesn't count just to knock down
> the stack; the bottles must be knocked completely off the supporting
> platform.
>
> We don't have the word "shies/shying", though.

Of course _we_ do. Maybe you don't in Orlando. I probably first saw it in
Mark Twain, i.e. originating fairly close to Hoosierland.

> Also related, many Americans have heard the song "I've got a lovely
> bunch of coconuts" with the words "a penny a pitch", we might know the
> coconut connection.

Tropical-themed musicals and scenes in musicals were very common in 30s and
40s musicals. Maybe you've heard of Carmen Miranda.

[charles]

In article <5b6e735e-ca3e-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>, Peter

T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 3:41:23 PM UTC-5, Janet wrote:
> > In article <n5peo8$pj0$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> > isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid says...

> > > Le 27/12/2015 17:39, Katy Jennison a écrit : [about Chalmers's poem
> > > as the origin of the saying "What you lose on the swings you gain on
> > > the roundabouts"]
> > > > What I'm not entirely convinced of, however, is that the poem is
> > > > the origin of the saying, though I see Wikipedia thinks it is.
> > > > I've known the saying since my childhood (I was born the year
> > > > Chalmers died), but I haven't met the poem until now. But here's
> > > > a website about Chalmers and the relevance of the poem to his
> > > > other profession of banking:
> > > >
> > > > http://interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/the-interesting-origins-of-the-phrase-swings-and-roundabouts/
> > >
> > > Searching books.google for occurences of "gain on the roundabouts" or
> > > some of its variations, with "made", "made up", "gained" and so on
> > > before 1912, the date of publication of Chalmers's poem, has proved
> > > quite infuriating as Google mostly provides snippets, which for the
> > > main part seem to come from rather technical publications, and which
> > > are difficult to decipher.

> But search "lose on the roundabouts," because you go slower when driving
> around a traffic circle than when driving on a straightaway. That's
> probably how an American would say it because that's the explanation we
> were given for the quaint British expression.

[Snip]

Sounds to me like a tale told to gullible foreigners.

--
Please note new email address:
cha...@CandEhope.me.uk

[Peter T. Daniels]

I've no idea. It must have been decades ago.

[Peter T. Daniels]

> Sounds to me like a tale told to gullible foreigners.

Because it's a lot more credible than the current explanation. Which, however,
prevails because of the philological principle of "lectio difficilior."

[James Hogg]

Is that good enough reason for you to cling to the folk etymology you
once heard?

--
James

[Katy Jennison]

How is it more credible? As has been demonstrated, the saying is older
than the existence of roundabouts of the traffic variety, and "swings"
has no road-related meaning (as far as I know) in either BrE or AmE. The
fairground terms may be unfamiliar to you, but they've been common
currency for generations of Brits.

--
Katy Jennison

[James Hogg]

And my example from 1908, with no mention of roundabouts and antedating
the existence of road roundabouts, must be enough to convince anyone of
the fairground origin of a phrase that allowed various combinations:

[David Kleinecke]

I favor the carnival origin. But I think we cannot assume 1908 is earlier
than traffic roundabouts. Maybe the Romans didn't use traffic roundabouts
but I am certain traffic circles existed in horse-and-buggy days. I think
photos of them (usually with a flag pole in the middle) would be
discovered were one to look for them.

[Tony Cooper]

You are a master of the non sequitur. The song "I've got a lovely
bunch of coconuts" is not from a tropical-themed musical. Not unless
you consider "an English fair" to be a tropical setting.

>> The song was in a Judy Garland movie ("I Could Go On Singing"), but I
>> don't know the context.
>>
>> Another American connection:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf670orHKcA

[RH Draney]

On 12/27/2015 1:41 PM, Janet wrote:
>
> Coconut shies are a classic component of travelling fairgrounds in UK
> Coconuts are balanced on a stand, you pay to try to knock them off by
> throwing (shying) a ball. In my childhood, if you knocked off a coconut
> you could either win the coconut or a live goldfish.

I've got a lovely bunch....r

[Peter T. Daniels]

Well, do you have a credible explanation for those two things?

[Mark Brader]

David Kleinecke:
> ... I am certain traffic circles existed in horse-and-buggy days.

> I think photos of them (usually with a flag pole in the middle)
> would be discovered were one to look for them.

The trouble with pictures like these:

http://www.histoire-fr.com/images/place_de_etoile_1867.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Piazza_della_repubblica_in_1895.jpg

is that there's so little traffic, you can't really tell if they show
it in a circular pattern or not.
--
Mark Brader | "... There are three kinds of death in this world.
Toronto | There's heart death, there's brain death, and
m...@vex.net | there's being off the network." -- Guy Almes

[Peter T. Daniels]

You are _still_ a master of inability to comprehend a generalization.

> >> The song was in a Judy Garland movie ("I Could Go On Singing"), but I
> >> don't know the context.

So you don't know (a) that it isn't from a tropical-themed scene or (b) that
it was written for that movie.

Given that it was an anthology film --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Could_Go_On_Singing

and her last movie --

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057168/

and doesn't seem to include the song in question --

http://www.jgdb.com/singing.htm

I wonder why you mentioned it.

Especially since it happens to be an _English_, not an American song, though
it was a US hit for both Merv Griffin and Danny Kaye --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27ve_Got_a_Lovely_Bunch_of_Coconuts

Why this article mentions the Garland movie when two presumably authoritative
sites (and a fellow wikiparticle) do not is a puzzlement.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 20:31:49 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> You are a master of the non sequitur. The song "I've got a lovely
>> bunch of coconuts" is not from a tropical-themed musical. Not unless
>> you consider "an English fair" to be a tropical setting.
>
>You are _still_ a master of inability to comprehend a generalization.
>
>> >> The song was in a Judy Garland movie ("I Could Go On Singing"), but I
>> >> don't know the context.
>
>So you don't know (a) that it isn't from a tropical-themed scene or (b) that
>it was written for that movie.
>
>Given that it was an anthology film --
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Could_Go_On_Singing
>
>and her last movie --
>
>http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057168/
>
>and doesn't seem to include the song in question --
>
>http://www.jgdb.com/singing.htm
>
>I wonder why you mentioned it.
>
>Especially since it happens to be an _English_, not an American song, though
>it was a US hit for both Merv Griffin and Danny Kaye --

I sometimes have great trouble thinking of you as anything resembling
a "scholar" as you are described. It would seem to me that "scholars"
are at least minimally capable of fact-checking statements before they
blurt them out.

The plot of the movie "I Could Go On Singing" is that singer "Jenny
Bowman" travels to London (that's in England, not in southern
Illinois) for a big show at the Palladium. London (the one in
England) is not considered to be a tropical setting, and English songs
are quite often heard in England.

The song appears at :30:40 into the movie. Enter "lovely bunch of
coconuts" in the search box.

http://www.cswap.com/1963/I_Could_Go_on_Singing

What gets me is that you've linked to a page that describes the plot,
but have not twigged to the fact that an English song might be
included in the movie. Evidently, you don't read what you link to.

>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27ve_Got_a_Lovely_Bunch_of_Coconuts
>
>Why this article mentions the Garland movie when two presumably authoritative
>sites (and a fellow wikiparticle) do not is a puzzlement.

Could it be because it's a minor aspect of the movie and only the
major aspects are mentioned by your authoritative sources?

It was not written for the movie unless Box, Cox, and Ilda composed it
19 years before the movie was made thinking it might be right for the
scene with "Jenny" inviting her son to her performance.

[James Hogg]

No explanation is necessary in the absence of any credible alternative
etymology.

--
James

[Snidely]

Remember when Zoroaster ragged on us outrageously? That was Sunday:

[My post elided]

> Here, I was surprised to see that so many posters not only didn't know the
> source (although one did!) but also confused the issue (such as the post I've
> quoted here).

It's a nice poem, but I'm likely to pick a Frost piece ahead of it for
greatest ever ("Fog", say). Maybe even a Blake, although "Tiger,
Tiger" is the only one I've memorized.

As to confusing the issue: Huh, what confusion? I completely accept
the fairground origin of the phrase (I recognized swings and
roundabouts as fairground staples), and others in this branch have
enhanced this acceptance. I made bold to claim that this didn't seem
like the genesis of the phrase, though it might have proven to be the
first time in print (later shown not the case).

But perhaps you were confused by speculation as to the nature of the
caravan and its rolling stock. Yeah, widening the topic can promote
confusion, but it can also lead to interesting insights, and threads
tend to wander all over the map in this group. Sometimes the thread
will expand upon the original topic and simultaneously end up in some
far away land, with the same people contributing to both branches.

(And there's a mental picture for you ... a length of sewing thread
that has branches. I suppose one could open up the twisted strands at
various points and divert a strand to twist up with a new one. Hmmm,
isn't that how some modelers do the armature for the trees in their
scenery?)

(ObNotedInPassing: I was stuck on "arm", so I called up a thesaurus
and asked about "skeleton". Many useful synonyms, no "arm*". Then I
remembered "ature", and asked the thesaurus about the synonyms of the
now-retrieved word ... many of the same synonyms + "skeleton". Goes to
show ya.)

/dps

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

[Katy Jennison]

Perhaps. Then what about the "swings"? Or, indeed, the coconut shy?

--
Katy Jennison

[Janet]

In article <n5plcs$3c1$5...@dont-email.me>, Jas....@gOUTmail.com says...

long before road roundabouts even existed :-)

and
> Isabelle's examples confirm the primacy of the fairground context.

Janet

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 20:38:50 +0100, Isabelle C
<isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote:

>Le 27/12/2015 17:39, Katy Jennison a écrit :
>[about Chalmers's poem as the origin of the saying "What you lose on the
>swings you gain on the roundabouts"]
>>
>> What I'm not entirely convinced of, however, is that the poem is the
>> origin of the saying, though I see Wikipedia thinks it is. I've known
>> the saying since my childhood (I was born the year Chalmers died), but I
>> haven't met the poem until now. But here's a website about Chalmers and
>> the relevance of the poem to his other profession of banking:
>>
>> http://interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/the-interesting-origins-of-the-phrase-swings-and-roundabouts/
>

>Searching books.google for occurences of "gain on the roundabouts" or
>some of its variations, with "made", "made up", "gained" and so on
>before 1912, the date of publication of Chalmers's poem, has proved
>quite infuriating as Google mostly provides snippets, which for the main
>part seem to come from rather technical publications, and which are
>difficult to decipher.
>

>Two quotes which I found interesting and which both predate Chalmers's poem:
>
>The first one is to be found in Fore's Sporting Notes & Sketches,
>published in 1907
>http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Fores_Sporting_Notes_Sketches_v10_1000518999/301
>
>"It should be possible for a racecourse to pay its way, even if a
>sovereign only were charged to cover all admission expenses, and
>probably less than that. What would be lost on the swings would be
>gained on the roundabouts"
>
>The second quote is taken from Via Rhodesia; a journey through Southern
>Africa, by Charlotte Mansfield, published in 1911. It's on page 77. The
>author describes Salisbury:
>
>"In Salisbury what one loses on the cocoanut shies one makes up on the
>roundabouts; one may complain of the unnecessary space between the
>public buildings for a busy man or woman, but no one can find fault wuth
>the delightful sports grounds..."
>
>I don't know if the "cocoanut shies" is Charlotte Mansfield's own
>invention or if, as I suspect, it is an alternative version of the
>saying as we know it and which she repeated.
>

>I'd say we're firmly on carnival ground here.

Yes.

There might have been several sayings of the same type referring to
different fairground rides and attractions. Different groups of showmen
might have had their own versions.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I think the crucial point here is not when did things we would describe
as traffic "roundabouts" exist, but when was the word "roundabout" first
applied to them.

[Janet]

In article <gpl08b10fcmoemrno...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

I went to a tiny village fair last summer, where they had a stall with
chipped and cracked old cups and plates balanced on each other into
towers 5 or 6 high. There was a sweetie in each top cup. If children
managed to hit the tower with a ball it would collapse with a satisfying
smash, child gets the sweet that fell out, any plates and cups that
didn't break are built into new towers. Looked like a great little
community fund-raiser.

Janet.

[Janet]

In article <5b6e735e-ca3e-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

>
> On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 3:41:23 PM UTC-5, Janet wrote:
> > In article <n5peo8$pj0$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> > isab...@lewanadoo.fr.invalid says...
>
> > > Le 27/12/2015 17:39, Katy Jennison a écrit :
> > > [about Chalmers's poem as the origin of the saying "What you lose on the
> > > swings you gain on the roundabouts"]
> > > > What I'm not entirely convinced of, however, is that the poem is the
> > > > origin of the saying, though I see Wikipedia thinks it is. I've known
> > > > the saying since my childhood (I was born the year Chalmers died), but I
> > > > haven't met the poem until now. But here's a website about Chalmers and
> > > > the relevance of the poem to his other profession of banking:
> > > >
> > > > http://interestingliterature.com/2015/09/03/the-interesting-origins-of-the-phrase-swings-and-roundabouts/
> > >
> > > Searching books.google for occurences of "gain on the roundabouts" or
> > > some of its variations, with "made", "made up", "gained" and so on
> > > before 1912, the date of publication of Chalmers's poem, has proved
> > > quite infuriating as Google mostly provides snippets, which for the main
> > > part seem to come from rather technical publications, and which are
> > > difficult to decipher.
>
> But search "lose on the roundabouts," because you go slower when driving
> around a traffic circle than when driving on a straightaway. That's probably
> how an American would say it because that's the explanation we were given
> for the quaint British expression.
>

> Plus, the prosody is better: ending on a single strong syllable rather than
> two weak syllables of a three-syllable word.

>
> > > Two quotes which I found interesting and which both predate Chalmers's poem:
> > > The first one is to be found in Fore's Sporting Notes & Sketches,
> > > published in 1907
> > > http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Fores_Sporting_Notes_Sketches_v10_1000518999/301
> > > "It should be possible for a racecourse to pay its way, even if a
> > > sovereign only were charged to cover all admission expenses, and
> > > probably less than that. What would be lost on the swings would be
> > > gained on the roundabouts"
>

> literal.

>
> > > The second quote is taken from Via Rhodesia; a journey through Southern
> > > Africa, by Charlotte Mansfield, published in 1911. It's on page 77. The
> > > author describes Salisbury:
> > > "In Salisbury what one loses on the cocoanut shies one makes up on the
> > > roundabouts; one may complain of the unnecessary space between the
> > > public buildings for a busy man or woman, but no one can find fault wuth
> > > the delightful sports grounds..."
> > > I don't know if the "cocoanut shies" is Charlotte Mansfield's own
> > > invention or if, as I suspect, it is an alternative version of the
> > > saying as we know it and which she repeated.

> > > I'd say we're firmly on carnival ground here.
>

> again, literal. But why would it have escaped into proverbial use?

>
> > Coconut shies are a classic component of travelling fairgrounds in UK
> > Coconuts are balanced on a stand, you pay to try to knock them off by
> > throwing (shying) a ball. In my childhood, if you knocked off a coconut
> > you could either win the coconut or a live goldfish.
>

> Take the coconunt. It'll last longer.

I always chose the fish. I knew my Dad would win a coconut :-)

Janet

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 15:25:22 -0800 (PST), David Kleinecke

ObCarnival: The word "carnival" seems to have a meaning in AmE that is
doesn't have in OtherE.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/carnival

carnival

noun
1 A period of public revelry at a regular time each year, typically
during the week before Lent in Roman Catholic countries, involving
processions, music, dancing, and the use of masquerade:

2 North American A traveling amusement show or circus.

OED:

carnival, n.

Etymology: < Italian carnevale, carnovale (whence French carnaval),
evidently related to the medieval Latin (11–12th cent.) names
carnelevarium, carnilevaria, carnilevamen, cited by Carpentier in
additions to Du Cange. These appear to originate in a Latin *carnem
levare, or Italian *carne levare (with infinitive used subst. as in
il levar del sole sunrise), meaning ‘the putting away or removal of
flesh (as food)’, the name being originally proper to the eve of Ash
Wednesday. The actual Italian carnevale appears to have come through
the intermediate carnelevale, cited by Carpentier from a document of
1130.

1. The season immediately preceding Lent, devoted in Italy and other
Roman Catholic countries to revelry and riotous amusement,
Shrove-tide; the festivity of this season. High Carnival: the
revelry of the Carnival at its height.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnival

Carnival (see other spellings and names) is a festive season that
occurs before the Christian season of Lent. The main events
typically occur during February or early March. Carnival typically
involves a public celebration and/or parade combining some elements
of a circus, masks and public street party. People wear masks during
many such celebrations, an overturning of life's normal things. The
celebrations have long been associated with heavy alcohol
consumption.

In various cultures carnivals are now purely secular events.

In the UK today, "carnival" usually means a parade based on or deriving
from Caribbean tradition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean_Carnival#United_Kingdom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notting_Hill_Carnival

The Notting Hill Carnival is an annual event that since 1966 has
taken place on the streets of Notting Hill, Royal Borough of
Kensington and Chelsea, London, England, each August over two days
(the August bank holiday Monday and the preceding Sunday). It is led
by members of the British West Indian community, and attracts around
one million people annually, making it one of the world's largest
street festivals, and a significant event in British culture. In
2006, the UK public voted it onto the list of icons of England.
Despite its name, it is not part of the global Carnival season
preceding Lent.

[charles]

In article <MPG.30eb2c8...@news.individual.net>,

The Safety Elf would have a fit round here.

[charles]

In article <MPG.30eb2d6...@news.individual.net>, Janet

we got coconuts with a stamp on the outside sent by my dad when he was
stationed in West Africa during WW2

[Peter T. Daniels]

You mean, in a "list of musical numbers"?

> It was not written for the movie unless Box, Cox, and Ilda composed it
> 19 years before the movie was made thinking it might be right for the
> scene with "Jenny" inviting her son to her performance.

Which is precisely why it is _not_ evidence of US familiarity with "coconut-
shying"!!!!!! The movie _itself_ was made in England by English creators.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On the contrary, hat makes the necessity of an explanation _even greater_.

[James Hogg]

But hat necessity is felt only by you.

--
James

[CDB]

On 27/12/2015 11:21 PM, Mark Brader wrote:
> David Kleinecke:

>> ... I am certain traffic circles existed in horse-and-buggy days. I
>> think photos of them (usually with a flag pole in the middle) would
>> be discovered were one to look for them.

> The trouble with pictures like these:

> http://www.histoire-fr.com/images/place_de_etoile_1867.jpg

> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Piazza_della_repubblica_in_1895.jpg

> is that there's so little traffic, you can't really tell if they
> show it in a circular pattern or not.

But you can be pretty sure they didn't have to slow down on the curve.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 04:41:47 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

In the source provided, it seems that Garland broke into song during
the meeting with her son and his father, but it may not have reached
the "musical number" status if not instrumentally accompanied.

>
>> It was not written for the movie unless Box, Cox, and Ilda composed it
>> 19 years before the movie was made thinking it might be right for the
>> scene with "Jenny" inviting her son to her performance.
>
>Which is precisely why it is _not_ evidence of US familiarity with "coconut-
>shying"!!!!!! The movie _itself_ was made in England by English creators.

How have you come around to this gem? What has been said by anyone
that indicates there is US familiarity with "coconut shying"? There
is familiarity with the song to those of a certain age, and there is
familiarity with the concept to any American who has seen the milk
bottle toss at a fair, but what deserves six !s?

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 14:06:25 +0100, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com>

Anyone here can cap that pun.

[Peter T. Daniels]

It would be felt by any lexicographer. Does Partridge deal with it anywjere?

[Peter T. Daniels]

BECAUSE YOU CITED THE SONG AS EVIDENCE IN THE DISCUSSION !!!!!!!

And strongly implied that it was written for and is associated with and
would be known from Judy Garland, though you have very conveniently deleted
the remarks.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 06:26:08 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Now what? Evidence? All I said was "The song was in a Judy Garland

movie ("I Could Go On Singing"), but I don't know the context."
>

>And strongly implied that it was written for and is associated with and
>would be known from Judy Garland, though you have very conveniently deleted
>the remarks.

How is that a strong implication of anything other than it was in a
movie? What a strange conclusion to jump to.

[James Hogg]

I can't find it anywjere in Partridge but the OED has it under "swing"
II. 11:

a. A contrivance used for recreation, consisting of a seat which is
suspended from above on ropes or rods and on which a person may sit and
swing to and fro.

b. Colloq. phr. to gain on the swings and lose on the roundabouts and
varr., according to which one's losses in one quarter balance one's
gains in another.

No mention of swings in roads, for blindingly obvious reasons.

--
James

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 9:52:59 AM UTC-5, James Hogg wrote:
> "Editor" Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 8:06:26 AM UTC-5, James Hogg wrote:
> >> Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> >>> On the contrary, hat makes the necessity of an explanation _even
> >>> greater_.
> >> But hat necessity is felt only by you.
> > It would be felt by any lexicographer. Does Partridge deal with it

> > anywhere?

>
> I can't find it anywjere in Partridge but the OED has it under "swing"
> II. 11:
>
> a. A contrivance used for recreation, consisting of a seat which is
> suspended from above on ropes or rods and on which a person may sit and
> swing to and fro.
>
> b. Colloq. phr. to gain on the swings and lose on the roundabouts and
> varr., according to which one's losses in one quarter balance one's
> gains in another.
>
> No mention of swings in roads, for blindingly obvious reasons.

And no hint (as none would be expected,since OED is not a dictionary of catch
phrases and cliches) of how the expression made its way from supposed carnie
(or gypsy?) usage into general use. Such hints and speculations would be
expected from Partridge (who was not, and never claimed to be, trained in lexicography).

[Jack Campin]

>> b. Colloq. phr. to gain on the swings and lose on the roundabouts
>> and varr., according to which one's losses in one quarter balance
>> one's gains in another.

> And no hint (as none would be expected,since OED is not a dictionary
> of catch phrases and cliches) of how the expression made its way from
> supposed carnie (or gypsy?) usage into general use.

Surely the phrase would have started among the patrons of carnival
rides rather than the operators?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Traddict]

<zoro...@zenofzero.net> a écrit dans le message de groupe de discussion :
41cc6c9b-d7bd-4245...@googlegroups.com...
> On Friday, November 28, 1997 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-8, Daniel P. B. Smith
> wrote:
>> There seems to be a British saying, "What you lose on the swings you gain
>> on the roundabouts." The figurative meaning seems to be something like
>> "It's a wash," or "it's close to an even tradeoff" or "the law of
>> averages
>> applies" or "it all evens out in the end."
>>
>> Does anyone know what the origin and _literal_ meaning of the saying is?
>> Carnival rides, maybe?

Yes probably. If so, the meaning of the saying may be very matter-of-fact.

Indeed, "What you lose on the swings you gain on the roundabouts" may
actually simply refer to the fact that someone can easily lose something on
a swing (as objects can fall out of their pockets), and gain something on a
roundabout, as some varieties of roundabouts include a "pom-pom" children
must catch to win a free ride. See for instance
www.ladepeche.fr/content/media/image/350/2010/09/11/201009111887.jpg

>>
>> --
>> Daniel P. B. Smith
>
> The origin:
>
> Roundabouts and Swings
> by
> Patrick R Chalmers
>
> It was early last September nigh to Framlin'am-on-Sea,
> An' 'twas Fair-day come to-morrow, an' the time was after tea,
> An' I met a painted caravan adown a dusty lane,
> A Pharaoh with his waggons comin' jolt an' creak an' strain;
> A cheery cove an' sunburnt, bold o' eye and wrinkled up,
> An' beside him on the splashboard sat a brindled tarrier pup,
> An' a lurcher wise as Solomon an' lean as fiddle-strings
> Was joggin' in the dust along 'is roundabouts and swings.
>
> "Goo'-day," said 'e; "Goo'-day," said I; "an' 'ow d'you find things go,
> An' what's the chance o' millions when you runs a travellin' show?"
> "I find," said 'e, "things very much as 'ow I've always found,
> For mostly they goes up and down or else goes round and round."
> Said 'e, "The job's the very spit o' what it always were,
> It's bread and bacon mostly when the dog don't catch a 'are;
> But lookin' at it broad, an' while it ain't no merchant king's,
> What's lost upon the roundabouts we pulls up on the swings!"
>
> "Goo' luck," said 'e; "Goo' luck," said I; "you've put it past a doubt;
> An' keep that lurcher on the road, the gamekeepers is out."
> 'E thumped upon the footboard an' 'e lumbered on again
> To meet a gold-dust sunset down the owl-light in the lane;
> An' the moon she climbed the 'azels, while a night-jar seemed to spin
> That Pharaoh's wisdom o'er again, 'is sooth of lose-and-win;
> For "up an' down an' round," said 'e, "goes all appointed things,
> An' losses on the roundabouts means profits on the swings!"

[David Kleinecke]

I was only arguing the notion that 1908 is earlier than the year traffic
roundabouts were invented. I don't know what earlier instances of the
traffic kind were called. In my youth we called them "circles" and they
were quite common. Most, in my experience, have now been re-engineered
into ordinary intersections.

Swings were, again in my youth, standard equipment in every playground
and we would have surprised to find either roundabouts, which we had
never heard of, or swings at a carnival. But then we had never heard
"What we lose on the swings we make on the roundabouts",

[musika]

Nice.

--
Ray
UK

[snide...@gmail.com]

You don't have to top *everything*.

/dps

[Tony Cooper]

Are you trying to put a lid on the hat puns?

[Katy Jennison]

Looks like titfer tat.

--
Katy Jennison

[James Hogg]

Instead of this childish niggling, could you instead suggest a plausible
alternative origin for these phrases about gains and losses on
roundabouts, swings and coconut shies that started to appear in print
around 1907?

--
James

[David Kleinecke]

Cause and effect. Rather than the poem inducing the usage the usage might
have induced the poem.

[James Hogg]

Evidently. The poem was published in 1912 and seems to be incorporating
a well-known trendy phrase as a punch line. P. G. Wodehouse, in "Psmith
in the City", 1910, likewise uses it as an established proverbial phrase:

'How curious, Comrade Gregory,' mused Psmith, as they went, 'are the
workings of Fate! A moment back, and your life was a blank. Comrade
Jackson, that prince of Fixed Depositors, had gone. How, you said to
yourself despairingly, can his place be filled? Then the cloud broke,
and the sun shone out again. _I_ came to help you. What you lose on the
swings, you make up on the roundabouts. Now show me what I have to do,
and then let us make this department sizzle. You have drawn a good
ticket, Comrade Gregory.'

--
James

[Robin Bignall]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 09:54:42 -0800 (PST), David Kleinecke
<dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Swings were, again in my youth, standard equipment in every playground
>and we would have surprised to find either roundabouts, which we had
>never heard of, or swings at a carnival. But then we had never heard
>"What we lose on the swings we make on the roundabouts",

WIWAL, the major fairs would have large swings operated by steam. My
memory is telling me that they were large, holding 10 or 12 people, but
the photos I've found look more like 4 or 6 seaters.
http://www.visit.carters-steamfair.co.uk/rides/swingboats/swingboats.html

The roundabouts varied from simple, hand-cranked devices for very small
children, up to the huge carousels with horses that went up and down,
again powered by steam.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=carousel+fairground&biw=1600&bih=710&tbm=isch&imgil=u_lTBw6eUyu0SM%253A%253BuAMARkk91h4mZM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.irvinleisure.co.uk%25252Frides-for-hire%25252Fcarousel%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=u_lTBw6eUyu0SM%253A%252CuAMARkk91h4mZM%252C_&usg=__bM-RehMlkC5bUv8ucwxqto6Z3-I%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjxr-XP4P_JAhXKuhQKHfn-A4QQyjcIMg&ei=7suBVvGABMr1Uvn9j6AI#imgrc=u_lTBw6eUyu0SM%3A&usg=__bM-RehMlkC5bUv8ucwxqto6Z3-I%3D
http://tinyurl.com/po7s4xd

I've not seen a steam fair advertised locally this century, but they do
still exist.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)

[Mark Brader]

Robin Bignall:

> WIWAL, the major fairs would have large swings operated by steam.

...

> I've not seen a steam fair advertised locally this century, but they do
> still exist.

Oddly enough, a game I received at Christmas is called "Steam Park".
"Park" in the context of the game means an amusement park, with rides.
--
Mark Brader "Men are animals."
Toronto "What are women? Plants, birds, fish?"
m...@vex.net -- Spider Robinson, "Night of Power"

[Robin Bignall]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:13:18 -0600, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Robin Bignall:
>> WIWAL, the major fairs would have large swings operated by steam.
> ...
>> I've not seen a steam fair advertised locally this century, but they do
>> still exist.
>
>Oddly enough, a game I received at Christmas is called "Steam Park".
>"Park" in the context of the game means an amusement park, with rides.

The steam swings I was seeing in my memory are these,
https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1600&bih=710&q=steam+swings&oq=steam+swings&gs_l=img.12...10024.16654.0.21340.12.8.0.4.4.0.65.465.8.8.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..2.10.470.VeHktFgSdkw#imgrc=NtCu00isGWnIxM%3A
http://tinyurl.com/hmqzjdz
which are huge, about half the size of a single-decker bus, holding
maybe 20 people.

[Peter Moylan]

On 2015-Dec-27 04:44, Charles Bishop wrote:
> In article <slrnn7t9vr....@amelia.local>,
> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> Granted, the recent screw up by Google in the googlegroups interface
>> that conceals the age of the post and doesn't provide a "this post is
>> over 5 years old, are you sure you want to reply?" check makes
>> resurrected threads more common and therefore more annoying, so there is
>> that.
>
> I don't find the resurrected threads annoying. I think most of them are
> on usage so they can be an additional source for discussion of English
> usage. This one was interesting because I have been confused by swings
> and roundabouts for some time and had even invented an explanation that
> made sense to me so I could read over the phrase. This explanation is no
> doubt without merit.

Besides, there are some regulars in this group who weren't here in 1997,
and didn't see the original post.

Resurrecting ancient threads is not evil in itself. What makes it
annoying is that it's almost done by drive-by posters who throw in their
pearls of wisdom and then disappear without trace, which is impolite to
say the least. They don't respect the rule that it's traditional to lurk
in a group for a while, to work out what the local traditions are,
before posting, and most of the time they don't even realise that Google
Groups is not Usenet.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter Moylan]

On 2015-Dec-28 08:53, Katy Jennison wrote:

> On 27/12/2015 21:08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> But search "lose on the roundabouts," because you go slower when driving
>> around a traffic circle than when driving on a straightaway. That's
>> probably
>> how an American would say it because that's the explanation we were given
>> for the quaint British expression.
>

> Who exactly gave you this explanation?

And which countries have swings and coconut shies on public roads?

[snide...@gmail.com]

Following one of those thumbnails gets
<URL:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hlvoIIF8sa0/UWJ09T9-ywI/AAAAAAAAJ_E/aO9FI6V1nE0/s320/swings3.png>

which looks a lot like our Pirate Boat rides (and various other styles)
<URL:http://jeanhasbeenshopping.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/DragonSwing02.jpg>

(I see that one's called "Dragon Swing")

I'd have guessed something like
<URL:http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/63919849.jpg>

I still want to know about the wag[g]ons.

/dps

[snide...@gmail.com]

And then there's
<URL:https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/0c/7c/18/0c7c1876f66b95071b8c118dc340df25.jpg>

[Peter T. Daniels]

Oh, you don't like the carnival-equipment explanation either? Despite the
fairly large array of evidence provided for it? (Was it "lectio difficilior"
that perplexed you?)

What no one has even suggested an answer to, other than that peculiar poem,
is how the expression _came into common use among the general public_,
which is not generally concerned with or exposed to the economics of carnivals.

[James Hogg]

Perhaps, as with so many etymologies, no one knows HOW it escaped. What
is obvious to everyone is that it DID happen.

--
James