The catbird seat

spains...@gmail.com

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Jun 4, 2021, 12:45:53 PM6/4/21

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"The catbird seat" (as I remember it) used to have the steering
wheel and the windscreen immediately in front of it; which is to
say it was at the rear of the vehicle.

Are any present day vehicles configured in such an unlikely way?

Tony Cooper

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Jun 4, 2021, 1:48:30 PM6/4/21

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I have never heard "catbird seat" used in that way, but I suppose it
may have been used in some places.

To me, the "catbird seat" is an expression that means "in a position
of advantage".

--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

Peter T. Daniels

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Jun 4, 2021, 2:16:24 PM6/4/21

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It was a favorite expression of the sportscaster Red Barber, who in
his later years was a regular commentator on NPR.

I believe it was Thurber who built a very funny story around the phrase.

Lewis

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Jun 5, 2021, 9:08:08 AM6/5/21

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In message <8mpkbg1ufag2jdvql...@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Jun 2021 09:45:50 -0700 (PDT), "spains...@gmail.com"
> <spains...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>"The catbird seat" (as I remember it) used to have the steering
>>wheel and the windscreen immediately in front of it; which is to
>>say it was at the rear of the vehicle.
>>
>>Are any present day vehicles configured in such an unlikely way?

> I have never heard "catbird seat" used in that way, but I suppose it
> may have been used in some places.

Neither have I, and I thought it came from carriages, not cars. The
rear-most seat in a car is the LEAST desirable seat, not at all what
"cat bird's seat" means.

ODE and NOAD say "[said to be an allusion to a baseball player in the
fortunate position of having no strikes and therefore three balls still
to play (a reference made in James Thurber's short story The Catbird
Seat).]"

> To me, the "catbird seat" is an expression that means "in a position
> of advantage".

Yes, that is how I've heard it too.

--
“I want my $2!”

spains...@gmail.com

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Jun 5, 2021, 1:42:51 PM6/5/21

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The USA "La France" fire trucks were so long they required steering
from the back wheels as well as the front? Normal for very long
vehicles nowadays; but with all wheels being steered from the front.

Lewis

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Jun 5, 2021, 10:08:33 PM6/5/21

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Are you suggesting this has something to do with catbird seat?

--
Space Directive 723: Terraformers are expressly forbidden from
recreating Swindon.

Peter Moylan

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Jun 5, 2021, 10:22:42 PM6/5/21

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I finally got around to looking up "catbird seat". Wikipedia says "The
phrase derives from the common catbird's habit of making mocking calls
from a secluded perch."

That sounds a bit like a back-seat driver.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

spains...@gmail.com

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Jun 6, 2021, 5:38:26 AM6/6/21

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On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 3:22:42 AM UTC+1, Peter Moylan wrote:
> I finally got around to looking up "catbird seat". Wikipedia says "The
> phrase derives from the common catbird's habit of making mocking calls
> from a secluded perch."
>
> That sounds a bit like a back-seat driver.

This film calls the position "tiller driver".

<https://www.ocregister.com/2020/01/09/whats-it-like-to-steer-the-back-end-of-a-long-fire-truck-these-guys-know/>

Peter Moylan

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Jun 6, 2021, 6:15:37 AM6/6/21

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Oops,
>
I didn't realise that the term "back-seat driver" had different
meanings in different countries. In MyE a back-driver is not a driver,
but a passenger who is criticising or giving orders to the driver. That
is, making mocking calls from a secluded perch (any one of the passenger
seats).

spains...@gmail.com

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Jun 6, 2021, 8:21:15 AM6/6/21

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The same in England. We don't have catbirds and we don't have "tiller"
drivers on our fire engines.

Mark Brader

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Jun 6, 2021, 4:22:17 PM6/6/21

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Peter Moylan:

> I didn't realise that the term "back-seat driver" had different

> meanings in different countries. In MyE a back-driver is not a driver...

> but a passenger who is criticising or giving orders to the driver.

"Back-seat driver" in my English, but not "back-driver".
--
Mark Brader | Given the degree of bitterness... here recently, it might
Toronto | [be better described] as an againstum than a forum.
m...@vex.net | --Peter Moylan

Lewis

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Jun 6, 2021, 6:43:45 PM6/6/21

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In message <vpOdnZ_cK_HssyD9...@giganews.com> Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
> Peter Moylan:
>> I didn't realise that the term "back-seat driver" had different
>> meanings in different countries. In MyE a back-driver is not a driver...
>> but a passenger who is criticising or giving orders to the driver.

> "Back-seat driver" in my English, but not "back-driver".

And back-seat-driver is not being in the catbird's seat.

--
Stone circles were common enough everywhere in the mountains. Druids
built them as weather computers, and since it was always cheaper
to build a new 33-Megalith circle than to upgrade an old slow
one, there were generally plenty of ancient ones around --Lords
and Ladies

Peter Moylan

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Jun 6, 2021, 8:16:17 PM6/6/21

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On 07/06/21 07:22, Mark Brader wrote:
> Peter Moylan:

>> I didn't realise that the term "back-seat driver" had different
>> meanings in different countries. In MyE a back-driver is not a
>> driver... but a passenger who is criticising or giving orders to
>> the driver.
>
> "Back-seat driver" in my English, but not "back-driver".

Sorry, that was my typo.

Technically, I suppose, not a typo but a different kind of error.
Leaving out an entire word is something I do now and then. I'm thinking
several words ahead, so it's possible for one of the words to go through
my brain but not reach the fingers.

musika

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Jun 6, 2021, 8:42:34 PM6/6/21

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Yes, there are several posters here who do that regularly. I don't think
of you as being in that group.

--
Ray
UK

Mark Brader

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Jun 6, 2021, 11:10:00 PM6/6/21

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Peter Moylan:

> Sorry, that was my typo.
>
> Technically, I suppose, not a typo but a different kind of error.
> Leaving out an entire word is something I do now and then. I'm thinking
> several words ahead, so it's possible for one of the words to go through
> my brain but not reach the fingers.

I think it still qualifies as a typo.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Tools, not solutions. :-)"
m...@vex.net -- Henry Spencer

Ross Clark

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Jun 7, 2021, 12:10:09 AM6/7/21

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I hardly knew it except from Thurber's story, which if I read, it was so
long ago I've forgotten everything else about it.

Green has some interesting light on it:

"catbird (Dumatella carolinensis), known for its harassing of fellow
birds. The catbird takes up a high, exposed position to deliver its
song. The image is of a cat looking down on a targeted bird. Orig. a
term used by a poker opponent of the sportscaster Red Barber (1908–92)
and popularized first by him and latterly by a James Thurber story, ‘The
Catbird Seat’ (14/11/1942)."

1 (US) a person of authority or power.

1924 W.E. Woodward Lottery 200: He's a catbird, all right. He's a leader
in the advertising field.
1931 W.E. Atkins Economic Behavior 182: Garrison, the ‘Holdfast’ button
king, liked Connelly, said ‘He's a catbird’.
1968 ‘Hy Lit’ Hy Lit's Unbelievable Dict. of Hip Words 8: cat bird – The
main man, the leader, top guy, the boss.

Then comes the "catbird seat", starting with Thurber:

1942 J. Thurber in New Yorker 14 Nov. 17: ‘Sitting in the catbird seat’
meant sitting pretty, like a batter with three balls and no strikes on him.

But the Thurber story itself refers back to Barber (a broadcaster whose
earliest use of the expression appears not to be dated):

[In the Thurber story] "Mrs. Barrows likes to use the phrase. Another
character, Joey Hart, explains that Mrs. Barrows must have picked up the
expression from the baseball broadcaster Red Barber and that to Barber,
"sitting in the catbird seat" meant "'sitting pretty,' like a batter
with three balls and no strikes on him."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Catbird_Seat

Notice that the last is just an example of a situation in which it might
be used, rather than a specific meaning. Elsewhere it is mentioned among
Barber's numerous catchphrases:

"Sittin' in the catbird seat" – used when a player or team was
performing exceptionally well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Barber

And later uses are by no means restricted to baseball:

1952 Wall Street Journal 3 June 11: A week of homage to secretaries,
whom a public poll already had indicated are in the catbird's seat at
the business of snaring a spouse.
1958 Wodehouse Cocktail Time 114: ‘I get you. If we swing it, we'll be
sitting pretty,’ ‘In the catbird seat.’
1978 W. Diehl Sharky's Machine 135: You're in the catbird seat there.
1992 R. Price Clockers 575: The first guy comes in voluntarily […] that
guy's gold, that guy's in the catbird seat.
2001 Pittsburgh Business Times 22 Jan. [Internet] Who could blame Mr.
Murphy for being a little giddy at the opportunity to sit in the catbird
seat for a change.

Though there is always the possibility of a play with a literal seat of
some kind:

1953 Mad mag. Jan.–Feb. 19: He'll be riding in the cat-bird seat of the
emperor's chariot
1962 T. Berger Reinhart in Love (1963) 152: He led Reinhart to his own
swivel chair and forced him into it. ‘How do you feel in the catbird
seat, boy?’

Nevertheless the origin of this expression does not seem to owe anything
to a particular seat in a motor vehicle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catbird_seat