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Fishmonger and Ironmonger
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fabzorba
Jul 8, 2012, 1:44:47 AM7/8/12
to
I have been intrigued by the use of the term "monger", which refers to
a dealer, or more pejoratively, a "peddler" of a specific form of
goods. The little thing that puzzled me was why of all the produce
and goods being bought and sold, ONLY two have retained "monger"
status: fishmonger and ironmonger.
Why is that these two specialties, so widely different, are still in
the public mind, whereas all the others have disappeared, but for
those which are essentially derogatory, and represent back-formations
of the suffix "monger"? These include "newsmonger, rumormonger,
gossipmonger, hatemonger, scandalmonger and scaremonger to denote
those fomenting slander and civic strife (you could add the prefix
"arch" and apply all of these to Rupert Murdoch), and warmonger and
whoremonger for those purveying and promoting those activities (and
ditto Murdoch for these as well).
Such applications are now more readily understood and used than any
primary uses of the monger words, except for the humble ironmonger and
fishmonger. In Britain, I read, the ironmonger is the person who is
elsewhere called the "hardware store person". Certainly, here in
Australia, we know of, but do not use, the term "ironmonger". I like
the feel and sound of "haberdashery", but why would the sale of
hardware qualify for a monger, but not the sale of linen, or pets, or
fishing equipment, or maternity fittings, or books for that matter, or
quite literally thousands of other things?
Researching this just now, I was interested to see two other primary
uses of the monger, and they are in costermonger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costermonger
which the wonderful Wikipedia tells us is a fruit and veg. barrow man
(which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
or even know what it would mean) and fellmonger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellmonger
, a dealer in animal hides and skins, as opposed to human ones, and is
sufficiently rare to be the only one of the collection mentioned here
which Microsoft Word accords a red underline as a misspelling.
Lastly, there is the fashionmonger, who, in other words, is a fop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashion-monger, or as it notes there, a
coxcomb, a fribble, a popinjay (meaning parrot), and a ninny. Whatever
happened to people who overdid the dressing up? Doesn't happen now.
Walk down George Street in Sydney, and everyone looks like they have
been dressed by the Catholic Mission in Soweto. Lucky if you can get
someone without mismatched thongs.
Myles [not that Fabzorba is known as a clotheshorse himself, mind...]
paulsen
a dealer, or more pejoratively, a "peddler" of a specific form of
goods. The little thing that puzzled me was why of all the produce
and goods being bought and sold, ONLY two have retained "monger"
status: fishmonger and ironmonger.
Why is that these two specialties, so widely different, are still in
the public mind, whereas all the others have disappeared, but for
those which are essentially derogatory, and represent back-formations
of the suffix "monger"? These include "newsmonger, rumormonger,
gossipmonger, hatemonger, scandalmonger and scaremonger to denote
those fomenting slander and civic strife (you could add the prefix
"arch" and apply all of these to Rupert Murdoch), and warmonger and
whoremonger for those purveying and promoting those activities (and
ditto Murdoch for these as well).
Such applications are now more readily understood and used than any
primary uses of the monger words, except for the humble ironmonger and
fishmonger. In Britain, I read, the ironmonger is the person who is
elsewhere called the "hardware store person". Certainly, here in
Australia, we know of, but do not use, the term "ironmonger". I like
the feel and sound of "haberdashery", but why would the sale of
hardware qualify for a monger, but not the sale of linen, or pets, or
fishing equipment, or maternity fittings, or books for that matter, or
quite literally thousands of other things?
Researching this just now, I was interested to see two other primary
uses of the monger, and they are in costermonger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costermonger
which the wonderful Wikipedia tells us is a fruit and veg. barrow man
(which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
or even know what it would mean) and fellmonger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellmonger
, a dealer in animal hides and skins, as opposed to human ones, and is
sufficiently rare to be the only one of the collection mentioned here
which Microsoft Word accords a red underline as a misspelling.
Lastly, there is the fashionmonger, who, in other words, is a fop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashion-monger, or as it notes there, a
coxcomb, a fribble, a popinjay (meaning parrot), and a ninny. Whatever
happened to people who overdid the dressing up? Doesn't happen now.
Walk down George Street in Sydney, and everyone looks like they have
been dressed by the Catholic Mission in Soweto. Lucky if you can get
someone without mismatched thongs.
Myles [not that Fabzorba is known as a clotheshorse himself, mind...]
paulsen
Guy Barry
Jul 8, 2012, 3:42:38 AM7/8/12
to
On Jul 8, 6:44 am, fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have been intrigued by the use of the term "monger", which refers to
> a dealer, or more pejoratively, a "peddler" of a specific form of
> goods. The little thing that puzzled me was why of all the produce
> and goods being bought and sold, ONLY two have retained "monger"
> status: fishmonger and ironmonger.
You missed "cheesemonger", but I think it's the only other one in
> I have been intrigued by the use of the term "monger", which refers to
> a dealer, or more pejoratively, a "peddler" of a specific form of
> goods. The little thing that puzzled me was why of all the produce
> and goods being bought and sold, ONLY two have retained "monger"
> status: fishmonger and ironmonger.
current usage (although, as you mention later, "costermonger" is still
occasionally heard, even though "coster" isn't).
> Why is that these two specialties, so widely different, are still in
> the public mind, whereas all the others have disappeared, but for
> those which are essentially derogatory, and represent back-formations
> of the suffix "monger"?
a verb "mong" meaning "to sell".
However, you're correct in saying that the suffix is otherwise only
used in a pejorative sense. I had noticed this previously, but I'm
afraid I can't tell you why. My guess it that it must have started
with a specific term like "warmonger" and then spread by analogy.
--
Guy Barry
![Peter Duncanson [BrE]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjU1GGYFBCZgBCNB-pRgkosMu-ej0qpnECw3jc8uGYOTiF8a=s40-c)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Jul 8, 2012, 4:14:08 AM7/8/12
to
has been used freely for centuries.
warmonger, n.
†a. a mercenary soldier (obs. rare—1).
b. one who seeks to bring about war.
1590 Spenser Faerie Queene iii. x. sig. Mm5, As much disdeigning
to be so misdempt, Or a war-monger to be basely nempt.
monger, n1
early OE...
....
c1540 (1400) Gest Historiale Destr. Troy 1590 Marchandes,
Monymakers, Mongers of fyche.
1567–9 J. Jewel Def. Apol. Churche Eng. (1611) 615 Against these
Mongers of Miracles, my God hath armed me.
1601 P. Holland tr. Pliny Hist. World II. 485 One rich munger or
other, buying vp a commodity,..for to haue the Monopoly of it,
raiseth the market.
1639 J. Ford Ladies Triall i. sig. B, Fvt. I am..no monopolist
Of forged Corantos, monger of Gazets. Pie. Monger of courtezans,
fine Futelli.
....
2. As the final element in compounds designating a dealer, trader,
or trafficker in a particular commodity. (Now the principal
use.)
Originally literally a trader, as cheese-, coster-, fish-, flesh-,
ironmonger, etc.; but in formations dating from the 16th cent.
also in extended use (freq. derogatory), as ceremony-, fashion-,
mass-, merit-, news-, pardon-, scandal-monger, etc.
The more important compounds of both kinds are treated as main
entries or under their first element; the following are examples of
occasional or nonce-formations.
early OE ...
....
1550 J. Bale Image Both Churches xviii. sig. Bbvj, Foule
priestes,..and holy water mongers dayly peruerting the ignorant
people.
....
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
CDB
Jul 8, 2012, 4:12:55 AM7/8/12
to
> which the wonderful Wikipedia tells us is a fruit and veg. barrow man
> (which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
> or even know what it would mean) and fellmonger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellmonger
> , a dealer in animal hides and skins, as opposed to human ones, and is
> sufficiently rare to be the only one of the collection mentioned here
> which Microsoft Word accords a red underline as a misspelling.
>
> Lastly, there is the fashionmonger, who, in other words, is a fophttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashion-monger, or as it notes there, a
> (which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
> or even know what it would mean) and fellmonger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellmonger
> , a dealer in animal hides and skins, as opposed to human ones, and is
> sufficiently rare to be the only one of the collection mentioned here
> which Microsoft Word accords a red underline as a misspelling.
>
> coxcomb, a fribble, a popinjay (meaning parrot), and a ninny. Whatever
> happened to people who overdid the dressing up? Doesn't happen now.
> Walk down George Street in Sydney, and everyone looks like they have
> been dressed by the Catholic Mission in Soweto. Lucky if you can get
> someone without mismatched thongs.
>
> Myles [not that Fabzorba is known as a clotheshorse himself, mind...]
> paulsen
>
Interesting. Typing "*monger" into the search box at OneLook gives
> happened to people who overdid the dressing up? Doesn't happen now.
> Walk down George Street in Sydney, and everyone looks like they have
> been dressed by the Catholic Mission in Soweto. Lucky if you can get
> someone without mismatched thongs.
>
> Myles [not that Fabzorba is known as a clotheshorse himself, mind...]
> paulsen
>
quite a few more compounds, but the commonly-known ones are as you say
(although Shakespeare has a few of the others*).
Wiktionary says the Latin etymonwas "mango". Mangones were especially
dealers in slaves, and apparently a notoriously shifty crew: the
_Lewis and Short_ entry in Perseus has
"a dealer, monger in slaves or wares, to which he tries to give an
appearance of greater value, by adorning them (post-Aug.)".
My old paper dictionary says the Latin word is borrowed from the Greek
"manganon". Perseus unaccountably won't give any result for the word;
that might be my incompetence, because we have just seen that I can't
type an acute accent over the first "a" in the Greek word above. I
searched on "m/agganon", if anybody else would like to try it.
My old _Liddell and Scott_ is more helpful. A manganon is "any means
for tricking or bewitching, a philtre, drug; a juggler's apparatus."
It can also be the same as a "gangamon" (same stress-pattern), a
(small, round) hunting-net.
So there might be the reason nobody likes a monger. That seems to
show remarkable persistence for a connotation based on what many would
call "the etymological fallacy", but there it is in pixels. Trust,
but verify.
__________________
* http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/search/search-results.php
I don't know if this will connect to the result; I searched for
"monger".
the Omrud
Jul 8, 2012, 6:13:38 AM7/8/12
to
On 08/07/2012 08:42, Guy Barry wrote:
> On Jul 8, 6:44 am, fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have been intrigued by the use of the term "monger", which refers to
>> a dealer, or more pejoratively, a "peddler" of a specific form of
>> goods. The little thing that puzzled me was why of all the produce
>> and goods being bought and sold, ONLY two have retained "monger"
>> status: fishmonger and ironmonger.
>
> You missed "cheesemonger", but I think it's the only other one in
> current usage (although, as you mention later, "costermonger" is still
> occasionally heard, even though "coster" isn't).
My great grandfather's occupation was given on the 1881 census as
> On Jul 8, 6:44 am, fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have been intrigued by the use of the term "monger", which refers to
>> a dealer, or more pejoratively, a "peddler" of a specific form of
>> goods. The little thing that puzzled me was why of all the produce
>> and goods being bought and sold, ONLY two have retained "monger"
>> status: fishmonger and ironmonger.
>
> You missed "cheesemonger", but I think it's the only other one in
> current usage (although, as you mention later, "costermonger" is still
> occasionally heard, even though "coster" isn't).
costermonger.
--
David
James Hogg
Jul 8, 2012, 6:23:45 AM7/8/12
to
--
James
the Omrud
Jul 8, 2012, 8:51:42 AM7/8/12
to
illiterate.
--
David
Don Phillipson
Jul 8, 2012, 9:09:09 AM7/8/12
to
"fabzorba" <myles....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:870da687-ad83-4a3b...@y3g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
>I have been intrigued by the use of the term "monger", which refers to
> a dealer, or more pejoratively, a "peddler" of a specific form of goods.
Over-brief dictionaries may have misled you.
"-monger" is an old English suffix meaning someone who lives by
selling (cf. fishmonger, ironmonger etc.) usually in a shop at a fixed
location. This is because selling was strictly controlled by law in
premodern England.
By contrast pedlars were uncontrolled since itinerant. They lived
by selling door to door (on foot, hence ped-) and did not specialize
like alemongers etc. In the 20th century the verb peddle was formed
as a back-formation from this noun: in print the noun dope pedlar
(new in the early 20th century) became the noun dope peddler,
invoking the new verb peddle.
> The little thing that puzzled me was why of all the produce
> and goods being bought and sold, ONLY two have retained "monger"
> status: fishmonger and ironmonger.
>
> Why is that these two specialties, so widely different, are still in
> the public mind, whereas all the others have disappeared, but for
> those which are essentially derogatory, and represent back-formations
> of the suffix "monger"? These include "newsmonger, rumormonger, . . .
These are not back-formations. They are standard English uses, viz.
attaching a standard suffix to a standard word. (Back-formation is
the invention of a new word by "reverse engineering" its supposed
characteristics.)
London livery companies also include Lightmongers: and other
formations are plausible, e.g. soapmonger, tilemonger, even if not
used in everyday speech.
> Lastly, there is the fashionmonger. . .
clothes fashion industry profits from change. The most visible changes
in my lifetime are:
1. Adoption of Euro-American dress by people elsewhere (with their
own history and tradition of costume.)
2. Abundance: Europeans and Americans nowadays own many more
items of clothing than was usual 1800-1950.
3. Abandon of the social tradition of emulating the upper social class
(cf. hats and neckties for men, suits for church on Sunday, etc.)
4. Adoption of non-traditional materials as fashion goods, most
obviously serge denim (light cotton sailcloth, used mainly for
work overalls for its first 150 years, now a high fashion fabric with
scores of pre-engineered subspecies.)
The changes obviously combine material changes (most obviously
synthetic fabrics and needle trade methods) with advertising (persuading
people to spend on social ideas more than they need for protection
for the weather.) The chief novelty is the new norm of non-conformity.
Most people, most of the time, used to aspire to dress uniformly.
Nowadays the social norm is to defy convention (as by deliberately
wearing clothing with patches or holes) so that this notional diversity
has become a new variety of uniformity.
Knowledgeable explorers used to know whether they were in
Azerbaijan or Zululand because of the way the local people
dressed, and often whether they were in Bavaria or Lombardy
too. This has ceased to be the case: whether for cheapness
or fashion, the whole population of the world is equally likely to
wear a Chicago Bulls or Microsoft or Yale University T-shirt.
(Boys in England when I was a boy saw plenty of uniforms,
e.g. military formations, railway staff, soccer teams etc: and
were expected themselves to wear uniform clothing only for
the organizations to which they belonged, e.g. Boy Scouts,
local schools, church clubs etc. An early discovery when I came
to Canada in 1959 was that a 20-year-old had painted on the
dashboard of his car a bunny's head because he enjoyed a new
magazine called Playboy. This seemed most curious.)
news:870da687-ad83-4a3b...@y3g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
>I have been intrigued by the use of the term "monger", which refers to
> a dealer, or more pejoratively, a "peddler" of a specific form of goods.
"-monger" is an old English suffix meaning someone who lives by
selling (cf. fishmonger, ironmonger etc.) usually in a shop at a fixed
location. This is because selling was strictly controlled by law in
premodern England.
By contrast pedlars were uncontrolled since itinerant. They lived
by selling door to door (on foot, hence ped-) and did not specialize
like alemongers etc. In the 20th century the verb peddle was formed
as a back-formation from this noun: in print the noun dope pedlar
(new in the early 20th century) became the noun dope peddler,
invoking the new verb peddle.
> The little thing that puzzled me was why of all the produce
> and goods being bought and sold, ONLY two have retained "monger"
> status: fishmonger and ironmonger.
>
> Why is that these two specialties, so widely different, are still in
> the public mind, whereas all the others have disappeared, but for
> those which are essentially derogatory, and represent back-formations
These are not back-formations. They are standard English uses, viz.
attaching a standard suffix to a standard word. (Back-formation is
the invention of a new word by "reverse engineering" its supposed
characteristics.)
London livery companies also include Lightmongers: and other
formations are plausible, e.g. soapmonger, tilemonger, even if not
used in everyday speech.
> Lastly, there is the fashionmonger. . .
> Walk down George Street in Sydney, and everyone looks like they have
> been dressed by the Catholic Mission in Soweto. Lucky if you can get
> someone without mismatched thongs.
As you know, fashion changes behavior (as well as speech) and the
> been dressed by the Catholic Mission in Soweto. Lucky if you can get
> someone without mismatched thongs.
clothes fashion industry profits from change. The most visible changes
in my lifetime are:
1. Adoption of Euro-American dress by people elsewhere (with their
own history and tradition of costume.)
2. Abundance: Europeans and Americans nowadays own many more
items of clothing than was usual 1800-1950.
3. Abandon of the social tradition of emulating the upper social class
(cf. hats and neckties for men, suits for church on Sunday, etc.)
4. Adoption of non-traditional materials as fashion goods, most
obviously serge denim (light cotton sailcloth, used mainly for
work overalls for its first 150 years, now a high fashion fabric with
scores of pre-engineered subspecies.)
The changes obviously combine material changes (most obviously
synthetic fabrics and needle trade methods) with advertising (persuading
people to spend on social ideas more than they need for protection
for the weather.) The chief novelty is the new norm of non-conformity.
Most people, most of the time, used to aspire to dress uniformly.
Nowadays the social norm is to defy convention (as by deliberately
wearing clothing with patches or holes) so that this notional diversity
has become a new variety of uniformity.
Knowledgeable explorers used to know whether they were in
Azerbaijan or Zululand because of the way the local people
dressed, and often whether they were in Bavaria or Lombardy
too. This has ceased to be the case: whether for cheapness
or fashion, the whole population of the world is equally likely to
wear a Chicago Bulls or Microsoft or Yale University T-shirt.
(Boys in England when I was a boy saw plenty of uniforms,
e.g. military formations, railway staff, soccer teams etc: and
were expected themselves to wear uniform clothing only for
the organizations to which they belonged, e.g. Boy Scouts,
local schools, church clubs etc. An early discovery when I came
to Canada in 1959 was that a 20-year-old had painted on the
dashboard of his car a bunny's head because he enjoyed a new
magazine called Playboy. This seemed most curious.)
Ian Noble
Jul 8, 2012, 12:22:51 PM7/8/12
to
On Sat, 7 Jul 2012 22:44:47 -0700 (PDT), fabzorba
<myles....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Researching this just now, I was interested to see two other primary
>uses of the monger, and they are in costermonger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costermonger
>which the wonderful Wikipedia tells us is a fruit and veg. barrow man
>(which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
I don't think I've heard the term in the wild for a while, but it's
<myles....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Researching this just now, I was interested to see two other primary
>uses of the monger, and they are in costermonger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costermonger
>which the wonderful Wikipedia tells us is a fruit and veg. barrow man
>(which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
one I'm very familiar with. I was going to post a reply to that effect
until about it until I got to the above part of your post, in fact.
Cheers - Ian
(BrE: Yorks., Hants.)
abc
Jul 8, 2012, 6:45:20 PM7/8/12
to
one about the difference between a costermonger and a dachshund ...
fabzorba
Jul 8, 2012, 11:11:20 PM7/8/12
to
On Jul 8, 11:09 pm, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> "fabzorba" <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Thank you for this most excellent response.
myles (good to see aue in fine form) paulsen
> "fabzorba" <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
myles (good to see aue in fine form) paulsen
fabzorba
Jul 8, 2012, 11:13:56 PM7/8/12
to
underscore (meaning "not known") and the Wikipedia article caused me
to raise an eyebrow like someone launching a great hairy boomerang
into space. Search in WP for said "cheesemongers", and you are
redirected to an article on the 1st Regiment of Life Guards. There is
no explanation there or in the associated talk page as to how this
came about. Am I the only person who might be wondering what the
connection is twixt the peddlers of the "fromage de la belle France"
and this august and time-honoured military institution?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Regiment_of_Life_Guards
OneLook has cheesemonger, but no ref to Regiment of Life Guards. Did
they do a little providoring of said cheese on the side.
myles [it's very clean this cheese shop, innit?] paulsen
fabzorba
Jul 8, 2012, 11:48:38 PM7/8/12
to
> By contrast pedlars were uncontrolled since itinerant. They lived
> by selling door to door (on foot, hence ped-) and did not specialize
> like alemongers etc. In the 20th century the verb peddle was formed
> as a back-formation from this noun: in print the noun dope pedlar
> (new in the early 20th century) became the noun dope peddler,
> invoking the new verb peddle.
>
I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
> by selling door to door (on foot, hence ped-) and did not specialize
> like alemongers etc. In the 20th century the verb peddle was formed
> as a back-formation from this noun: in print the noun dope pedlar
> (new in the early 20th century) became the noun dope peddler,
> invoking the new verb peddle.
>
than top draw came about initially coz it had to do with those
involved in trade, even if they were not literally peddlers (as they
had shops). The English have the world's most sensitive barometer
measuring matters to do with class on a social level, and "trade" was
always sniffed at. So it would have been quite natural for the word
"monge" to segue towards those dealing in war, or gossip or the like.
myles [I may engage in being a wordsmith, but a wordmonger? Never]
paulsen
Message has been deleted
Evan Kirshenbaum
Jul 9, 2012, 12:07:58 AM7/9/12
to
fabzorba <myles....@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jul 8, 8:13�pm, the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 08/07/2012 08:42, Guy Barry wrote:
>>
>> > On Jul 8, 6:44 am, fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> I have been intrigued by the use of the term "monger", which refers to
>> >> a dealer, or more pejoratively, a "peddler" of a specific form of
>> >> goods. �The little thing that puzzled me was why of all the produce
>> >> and goods being bought and sold, ONLY two have retained "monger"
>> >> status: fishmonger and ironmonger.
>>
>> > You missed "cheesemonger", but I think it's the only other one in
>> > current usage (although, as you mention later, "costermonger" is still
>> > occasionally heard, even though "coster" isn't).
>>
>> My great grandfather's occupation was given on the 1881 census as
>> costermonger.
>>
> Thanks for that. MS Word provides "cheesemongers" with a red
> underscore (meaning "not known") and the Wikipedia article caused me
> to raise an eyebrow like someone launching a great hairy boomerang
> into space. Search in WP for said "cheesemongers", and you are
> redirected to an article on the 1st Regiment of Life Guards. There is
> no explanation there or in the associated talk page as to how this
> came about. Am I the only person who might be wondering what the
> connection is twixt the peddlers of the "fromage de la belle France"
> and this august and time-honoured military institution?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Regiment_of_Life_Guards
I see that somebody has answered your talk page query and pointed to
> On Jul 8, 8:13�pm, the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 08/07/2012 08:42, Guy Barry wrote:
>>
>> > On Jul 8, 6:44 am, fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> I have been intrigued by the use of the term "monger", which refers to
>> >> a dealer, or more pejoratively, a "peddler" of a specific form of
>> >> goods. �The little thing that puzzled me was why of all the produce
>> >> and goods being bought and sold, ONLY two have retained "monger"
>> >> status: fishmonger and ironmonger.
>>
>> > You missed "cheesemonger", but I think it's the only other one in
>> > current usage (although, as you mention later, "costermonger" is still
>> > occasionally heard, even though "coster" isn't).
>>
>> My great grandfather's occupation was given on the 1881 census as
>> costermonger.
>>
> Thanks for that. MS Word provides "cheesemongers" with a red
> underscore (meaning "not known") and the Wikipedia article caused me
> to raise an eyebrow like someone launching a great hairy boomerang
> into space. Search in WP for said "cheesemongers", and you are
> redirected to an article on the 1st Regiment of Life Guards. There is
> no explanation there or in the associated talk page as to how this
> came about. Am I the only person who might be wondering what the
> connection is twixt the peddlers of the "fromage de la belle France"
> and this august and time-honoured military institution?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Regiment_of_Life_Guards
the "Horse Grenadier Guards" page, which says
In 1788, army reforms broke up the "gentlemen's club" of the Horse
Guards. The two extant troops of Horse Guards became the Life
Guards, and the private gentlemen who had heretofore made up the
ranks of the regiment were largely pensioned off.[3][10] The Horse
Grenadier Guards were disbanded at the same time, and many of the
men transferred to the Life Guards,[11] making up the bulk of the
new regiment. The wholesale replacement of aristocrats by common
troopers gave the Life Guards the derisory nickname of "Cheeses"
or "Cheesemongers".[3][4]
> OneLook has cheesemonger, but no ref to Regiment of Life Guards. Did
> they do a little providoring of said cheese on the side.
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |If all else fails, embarrass the
SF Bay Area (1982-) |industry into doing the right
Chicago (1964-1982) |thing.
| Dean Thompson
evan.kir...@gmail.com
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Evan Kirshenbaum
Jul 9, 2012, 12:09:36 AM7/9/12
to
fabzorba <myles....@gmail.com> writes:
> I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
> than top draw
Typo, eggcorn, or dialect? I learned this as "top drawer", and it's
> I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
> than top draw
the only form the OED has.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |A specification which calls for
SF Bay Area (1982-) |network-wide use of encryption, but
Chicago (1964-1982) |invokes the Tooth Fairy to handle
|key distribution, is a useless
evan.kir...@gmail.com |farce.
| Henry Spencer
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Robert Bannister
Jul 9, 2012, 12:13:37 AM7/9/12
to
On 8/07/12 1:44 PM, fabzorba wrote:
> Researching this just now, I was interested to see two other primary
> uses of the monger, and they are in costermonger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costermonger
> which the wonderful Wikipedia tells us is a fruit and veg. barrow man
> (which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
> or even know what it would mean)
"costermonger" was still alive if somewhat moribund when I was a boy.
> Researching this just now, I was interested to see two other primary
> uses of the monger, and they are in costermonger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costermonger
> which the wonderful Wikipedia tells us is a fruit and veg. barrow man
> (which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
> or even know what it would mean)
and fellmonger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellmonger
> , a dealer in animal hides and skins, as opposed to human ones, and is
> sufficiently rare to be the only one of the collection mentioned here
> which Microsoft Word accords a red underline as a misspelling.
decades ago.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jul 9, 2012, 12:25:20 AM7/9/12
to
On 8/07/12 9:09 PM, Don Phillipson wrote:
> Knowledgeable explorers used to know whether they were in
> Azerbaijan or Zululand because of the way the local people
> dressed, and often whether they were in Bavaria or Lombardy
> too. This has ceased to be the case: whether for cheapness
> or fashion, the whole population of the world is equally likely to
> wear a Chicago Bulls or Microsoft or Yale University T-shirt.
> (Boys in England when I was a boy saw plenty of uniforms,
> e.g. military formations, railway staff, soccer teams etc: and
> were expected themselves to wear uniform clothing only for
> the organizations to which they belonged, e.g. Boy Scouts,
> local schools, church clubs etc. An early discovery when I came
> to Canada in 1959 was that a 20-year-old had painted on the
> dashboard of his car a bunny's head because he enjoyed a new
> magazine called Playboy. This seemed most curious.)
I would have been in my mid-twenties before I finally realised that that
> Knowledgeable explorers used to know whether they were in
> Azerbaijan or Zululand because of the way the local people
> dressed, and often whether they were in Bavaria or Lombardy
> too. This has ceased to be the case: whether for cheapness
> or fashion, the whole population of the world is equally likely to
> wear a Chicago Bulls or Microsoft or Yale University T-shirt.
> (Boys in England when I was a boy saw plenty of uniforms,
> e.g. military formations, railway staff, soccer teams etc: and
> were expected themselves to wear uniform clothing only for
> the organizations to which they belonged, e.g. Boy Scouts,
> local schools, church clubs etc. An early discovery when I came
> to Canada in 1959 was that a 20-year-old had painted on the
> dashboard of his car a bunny's head because he enjoyed a new
> magazine called Playboy. This seemed most curious.)
person wearing a "University of [wherever]" t-shirt had neither attended
the institution nor swapped shirts with someone who had a right to it.
We still wore our college or university scarves with pride up till then.
It was much later than that when I discovered I could buy picture
postcards of Paris, Honolulu or Hong Kong without setting foot outside
my own town. The world has become much more boring and if you stay in a
five star hotel, there's a good chance you won't even notice you're in a
foreign country.
--
Robert Bannister
fabzorba
Jul 9, 2012, 12:53:21 AM7/9/12
to
On Jul 9, 2:09 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Fabzorba's FauxFuckup. Send details, and tickets to Faborgy will be in
mail*.
Of course, "top draw" as indicating the very first and finest
selection from an entire crop, is a possibility, as compared with
"first fruits" or "extra virgin", which designates olives that have
yet to be stuffed. Does "top drawer" REALLY designate true worth. Does
not one keep the least perishable, and most "common" and utilitarian
of their artifacts in the most readily available drawer - the top one?
Where would you keep your best crystal, and your finest china, and
your family heirlooms, in the "top drawer", or in the least visible
one, the "bottom drawer"?
myles [of course, bottoms can be found in drawers, as well, but that's
another thread...] paulsen
myles [*that is, by special courier, blonde and buxom, and in chain
mail, with a whip...] paulsen
wrote:
> fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> writes:
> > I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
> > than top draw
>
> Typo, eggcorn, or dialect? I learned this as "top drawer", and it's
> the only form the OED has.
>
Ding, ding, ding... Of course, you have caught yourself another fine
> > I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
> > than top draw
>
> Typo, eggcorn, or dialect? I learned this as "top drawer", and it's
> the only form the OED has.
>
Fabzorba's FauxFuckup. Send details, and tickets to Faborgy will be in
mail*.
Of course, "top draw" as indicating the very first and finest
selection from an entire crop, is a possibility, as compared with
"first fruits" or "extra virgin", which designates olives that have
yet to be stuffed. Does "top drawer" REALLY designate true worth. Does
not one keep the least perishable, and most "common" and utilitarian
of their artifacts in the most readily available drawer - the top one?
Where would you keep your best crystal, and your finest china, and
your family heirlooms, in the "top drawer", or in the least visible
one, the "bottom drawer"?
myles [of course, bottoms can be found in drawers, as well, but that's
another thread...] paulsen
myles [*that is, by special courier, blonde and buxom, and in chain
mail, with a whip...] paulsen
Peter Brooks
Jul 9, 2012, 12:47:14 AM7/9/12
to
week before last.
fabzorba
Jul 9, 2012, 2:03:47 AM7/9/12
to
On Jul 9, 2:25 pm, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> I would have been in my mid-twenties before I finally realised that that
> person wearing a "University of [wherever]" t-shirt had neither attended
> the institution nor swapped shirts with someone who had a right to it.
> We still wore our college or university scarves with pride up till then.
> It was much later than that when I discovered I could buy picture
> postcards of Paris, Honolulu or Hong Kong without setting foot outside
> my own town. The world has become much more boring and if you stay in a
> five star hotel, there's a good chance you won't even notice you're in a
> foreign country.
> --
This reminded me of a plan a mate of mine had years ago, when American
>
> I would have been in my mid-twenties before I finally realised that that
> person wearing a "University of [wherever]" t-shirt had neither attended
> the institution nor swapped shirts with someone who had a right to it.
> We still wore our college or university scarves with pride up till then.
> It was much later than that when I discovered I could buy picture
> postcards of Paris, Honolulu or Hong Kong without setting foot outside
> my own town. The world has become much more boring and if you stay in a
> five star hotel, there's a good chance you won't even notice you're in a
> foreign country.
> --
marines and soldiers would do their R & R (Rest and Recreation) here
in Sydney. Aussie sheilas would treat them like celebrities and do
anything to meet them, and were very easily bedded. Idea was to
procure an American service uniform and hang out in King's Cross, and
wait for the hordes of gals to turn up. Could have worked like a
dream.
myles [when in Rome, as they say...] paulsen
Guy Barry
Jul 9, 2012, 3:04:40 AM7/9/12
to
On Jul 9, 4:13 am, fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for that. MS Word provides "cheesemongers" with a red
> underscore (meaning "not known") and the Wikipedia article caused me
> to raise an eyebrow like someone launching a great hairy boomerang
> into space. Search in WP for said "cheesemongers", and you are
> redirected to an article on the 1st Regiment of Life Guards. There is
> no explanation there or in the associated talk page as to how this
> came about.
I was going to give you a link to my local cheesemongers, Paxton and
> Thanks for that. MS Word provides "cheesemongers" with a red
> underscore (meaning "not known") and the Wikipedia article caused me
> to raise an eyebrow like someone launching a great hairy boomerang
> into space. Search in WP for said "cheesemongers", and you are
> redirected to an article on the 1st Regiment of Life Guards. There is
> no explanation there or in the associated talk page as to how this
> came about.
Whitfield, listed on Google as "Britain's leading cheesemonger for
over 200 years, sourcing and maturing exceptional cheeses", but the
word "cheesemonger" doesn't seem to appear on their site! Still a
search for "cheesemonger" lists plenty of others, such as I.J. Mellis:
http://www.mellischeese.co.uk/
Cheesemongers are something of a specialist concern here but the term
still seems to be in general use. Is it another UK-only thing?
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
Jul 9, 2012, 3:08:17 AM7/9/12
to
On Jul 9, 4:48 am, fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
> than top draw
Another deliberate mistake?
> I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
> than top draw
--
Guy Barry
Peter Young
Jul 9, 2012, 3:26:33 AM7/9/12
to
Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Ian Noble
Jul 9, 2012, 11:13:33 AM7/9/12
to
On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 08:26:33 +0100, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk>
wrote:
>On 8 Jul 2012 abc <a...@abc.net> wrote:
>
>> Ian Noble wrote:
>>> On Sat, 7 Jul 2012 22:44:47 -0700 (PDT), fabzorba
>>> <myles....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Researching this just now, I was interested to see two other primary
>>>> uses of the monger, and they are in costermonger
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costermonger
>>>> which the wonderful Wikipedia tells us is a fruit and veg. barrow man
>>>> (which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
>>>
>>> I don't think I've heard the term in the wild for a while, but it's
>>> one I'm very familiar with. I was going to post a reply to that effect
>>> until about it until I got to the above part of your post, in fact.
>
>> Since we're on the subject, someone please please also mention the
>> one about the difference between a costermonger and a dachshund ...
>
>A costermonger bawls his wares on the pavement (AmE sidewalk).
"... and a dachsund is a short-legged, long-bodied dog (AmE dog) of a
breed belonging to the hound family."
Nope, I don't get it. Must be alternative comedy.
wrote:
>On 8 Jul 2012 abc <a...@abc.net> wrote:
>
>> Ian Noble wrote:
>>> On Sat, 7 Jul 2012 22:44:47 -0700 (PDT), fabzorba
>>> <myles....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Researching this just now, I was interested to see two other primary
>>>> uses of the monger, and they are in costermonger
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costermonger
>>>> which the wonderful Wikipedia tells us is a fruit and veg. barrow man
>>>> (which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
>>>
>>> I don't think I've heard the term in the wild for a while, but it's
>>> one I'm very familiar with. I was going to post a reply to that effect
>>> until about it until I got to the above part of your post, in fact.
>
>> Since we're on the subject, someone please please also mention the
>> one about the difference between a costermonger and a dachshund ...
>
>A costermonger bawls his wares on the pavement (AmE sidewalk).
breed belonging to the hound family."
Nope, I don't get it. Must be alternative comedy.
Guy Barry
Jul 9, 2012, 11:26:40 AM7/9/12
to
> Search in WP for said "cheesemongers", and you are
> redirected to an article on the 1st Regiment of Life Guards.
I'm reminded of an incident on the British TV quiz show "University
> redirected to an article on the 1st Regiment of Life Guards.
Challenge" in 2000, when the quizmaster Jeremy Paxman asked: "The
names 'Cheesemongers', 'CherryPickers', 'Bob's Own', 'The Emperor's
Chambermaids' and 'The Immortals' are or have been used for which
groups of men?" One unfortunate contestant from UMIST [the then
University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology] buzzed
in and said, "Homosexuals". Paxman's (somewhat shocked) response was,
"No! They're regiments in the British Army - and they're going to be
very upset with you, UMIST!"
(Source: http://www.ukgameshows.com/ukgs/University_Challenge )
How would one go about creating a "disambiguation" page for
"cheesemonger"? I think there ought to be some sort of reference to
the literal sense.
--
Guy Barry
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Jul 9, 2012, 11:36:30 AM7/9/12
to
Same principle as:
What's the difference between a Foot Spa and Ringo Starr?
A Foot Spa bucks up the feet.
Ringo Starr fucks up the beat.
A Foot Spa:
http://tana.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Footspa-from-BrookstoneMassageChasirs1.jpeg
Ringo Starr:
http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drumpics10/ringo1.jpg
>Cheers - Ian
>(BrE: Yorks., Hants.)
Evan Kirshenbaum
Jul 9, 2012, 11:37:59 AM7/9/12
to
fabzorba <myles....@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jul 9, 2:09 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
>> > than top draw
>>
>> Typo, eggcorn, or dialect? I learned this as "top drawer", and it's
>> the only form the OED has.
>>
> Ding, ding, ding... Of course, you have caught yourself another fine
> Fabzorba's FauxFuckup. Send details, and tickets to Faborgy will be in
> mail*.
Thanks. I'll put you down for "typo".
> On Jul 9, 2:09 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kirshenb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
>> > than top draw
>>
>> Typo, eggcorn, or dialect? I learned this as "top drawer", and it's
>> the only form the OED has.
>>
> Ding, ding, ding... Of course, you have caught yourself another fine
> Fabzorba's FauxFuckup. Send details, and tickets to Faborgy will be in
> mail*.
> Of course, "top draw" as indicating the very first and finest
> selection from an entire crop, is a possibility, as compared with
> "first fruits" or "extra virgin", which designates olives that have
> yet to be stuffed. Does "top drawer" REALLY designate true worth. Does
> not one keep the least perishable, and most "common" and utilitarian
> of their artifacts in the most readily available drawer - the top one?
> Where would you keep your best crystal, and your finest china, and
> your family heirlooms, in the "top drawer", or in the least visible
> one, the "bottom drawer"?
>
> myles [of course, bottoms can be found in drawers, as well, but that's
> another thread...] paulsen
>
> myles [*that is, by special courier, blonde and buxom, and in chain
> mail, with a whip...] paulsen
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Usenet is like Tetris for people
SF Bay Area (1982-) |who still remember how to read.
Chicago (1964-1982)
evan.kir...@gmail.com
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
David Hatunen
Jul 9, 2012, 12:52:55 PM7/9/12
to
On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 12:25:20 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> ... The world has become much more boring and if you stay in a
Dave Hatunen
Viva Baja Arizona
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> ... The world has become much more boring and if you stay in a
>five star hotel, there's a good chance you won't even notice you're in a
>foreign country.
That's the whole point, isn't it?
>foreign country.
Dave Hatunen
Viva Baja Arizona
Jerry Friedman
Jul 9, 2012, 1:44:31 PM7/9/12
to
On Jul 9, 9:26 am, Guy Barry <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> On Jul 9, 4:13 am, fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Search in WP for said "cheesemongers", and you are
> > redirected to an article on the 1st Regiment of Life Guards.
[snip amusing story]
> On Jul 9, 4:13 am, fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Search in WP for said "cheesemongers", and you are
> > redirected to an article on the 1st Regiment of Life Guards.
> How would one go about creating a "disambiguation" page for
> "cheesemonger"? I think there ought to be some sort of reference to
> the literal sense.
how, in which case I'd be happy to tell you, or were you just making
the suggestion, in which case I'd be happy to do it?
--
Jerry Friedman
Don Phillipson
Jul 9, 2012, 4:58:23 PM7/9/12
to
"fabzorba" <myles....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9664f2e8-ae41-4742...@tu6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
<<
I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
than top draw came about initially coz it had to do with those
involved in trade, even if they were not literally peddlers (as they
had shops). The English have the world's most sensitive barometer
measuring matters to do with class on a social level, and "trade" was
always sniffed at.
>>
the merchants of London were the local aristocracy, many of them
richer than aristocrats with titles: and they maintained their wealth
by giving themselves monopoly power through the livery guilds
(in the self-governing City of London, separate from Westminster
etc.) and in the House of Commons, which in the 17th century
often carried more weight than the House of Lords.
So in 1500 AD a fishmonger or an ironmonger ranked high, at
least among non-aristocrats, not least because he had a permanent
economic base, protected by law rather than subject to the king's whim.
The aristocrat's disdain for "trade" seems to be a 19th-century
invention (perhaps also helping the non-trade bourgeoisie to feel
they were going up in the world, sending their boys to the same
"public schools" as lordlings, etc.)
Non olet pecunia, as someone said. This has usually been true.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Mike L
Jul 9, 2012, 5:00:06 PM7/9/12
to
of Paradise for constantly talking about things like girly pates?
--
Mike.
Ian Noble
Jul 9, 2012, 6:40:23 PM7/9/12
to
Cheers - ian
R H Draney
Jul 9, 2012, 7:28:08 PM7/9/12
to
Peter Duncanson [BrE]" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> filted:
Q: What's the difference between a violist and a seamstress?
A: A seamstress tucks up the frills.
(Neither of which can compete with "What's the difference between a nun in
church and one in the bath?")...r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
>
> What's the difference between a Foot Spa and Ringo Starr?
> A Foot Spa bucks up the feet.
> Ringo Starr fucks up the beat.
A poor adaptation of one of the better viola jokes:
> What's the difference between a Foot Spa and Ringo Starr?
> A Foot Spa bucks up the feet.
> Ringo Starr fucks up the beat.
Q: What's the difference between a violist and a seamstress?
A: A seamstress tucks up the frills.
(Neither of which can compete with "What's the difference between a nun in
church and one in the bath?")...r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
fabzorba
Jul 9, 2012, 9:36:10 PM7/9/12
to
posted your find a little earlier, you would have been eligible for
tickets to my next Faborgy.
myles [but "top draw" COULD work, in the sense of "first fruits"]
paulsen
fabzorba
Jul 9, 2012, 9:50:24 PM7/9/12
to
comes to matters more technically complex than editing text.
Disambiguation page is need here, as is a page for "Cheesemongers" as
there are pages for costermonger, ironmongery, and even fellmonger,
and probably others (Why can't you search with initial wild card *
there like you can with OneLook??) There is now a talk page reply to
my question there as to what cheesemongers had to do with the 1st
regiment, and poster there notes that articles on matters to do with
these and other British guards are in a mess. Olympics coming up, my
dear Poms. Best lift your GAME here and fix it.
myles (and it's good to see cheesemongers are still about and
advertising!) paulsen
fabzorba
Jul 9, 2012, 10:01:19 PM7/9/12
to
On Jul 10, 11:50 am, fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > How would one go about creating a "disambiguation" page for
> > > "cheesemonger"? I think there ought to be some sort of reference to
> > > the literal sense.
>
> > I agree with you (and Myles, I take it). Do you really want to know
> > how, in which case I'd be happy to tell you, or were you just making
> > the suggestion, in which case I'd be happy to do it?
>
> Yes, I occasionally write for WP, but am a babe in the woods when it
> comes to matters more technically complex than editing text.
> Disambiguation page is need here, as is a page for "Cheesemongers" as
> there are pages for costermonger, ironmongery, and even fellmonger,
> and probably others (Why can't you search with initial wild card *
> there like you can with OneLook??) There is now a talk page reply to
> my question there as to what cheesemongers had to do with the 1st
> regiment, and poster there notes that articles on matters to do with
> these and other British guards are in a mess. Olympics coming up, my
> dear Poms. Best lift your GAME here and fix it.
>
And I forgot to mention Wikipedia also has page for Fishmongers. A
>
> > > How would one go about creating a "disambiguation" page for
> > > "cheesemonger"? I think there ought to be some sort of reference to
> > > the literal sense.
>
> > I agree with you (and Myles, I take it). Do you really want to know
> > how, in which case I'd be happy to tell you, or were you just making
> > the suggestion, in which case I'd be happy to do it?
>
> Yes, I occasionally write for WP, but am a babe in the woods when it
> comes to matters more technically complex than editing text.
> Disambiguation page is need here, as is a page for "Cheesemongers" as
> there are pages for costermonger, ironmongery, and even fellmonger,
> and probably others (Why can't you search with initial wild card *
> there like you can with OneLook??) There is now a talk page reply to
> my question there as to what cheesemongers had to do with the 1st
> regiment, and poster there notes that articles on matters to do with
> these and other British guards are in a mess. Olympics coming up, my
> dear Poms. Best lift your GAME here and fix it.
>
link from there leads one to "Fishwife". And there I found out that
fishwives were women (wif means woman rather than "wife") who sold
fish. As their produce was especially perishable, they had to yell
extra loud and long to attract customers, and thus it came about that
fishwives were women with very loud and grating voices. Bloody
marvellous! Here's the page, which has a piccie of nice statue of
aforesaid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishwife
myles [have known some fishwives. Looked like 'em, sounded like 'em,
and parts of 'em smelled..well no need to go on...] paulsen
Robert Bannister
Jul 9, 2012, 11:12:10 PM7/9/12
to
On 9/07/12 12:09 PM, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> fabzorba <myles....@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
>> than top draw
>
> Typo, eggcorn, or dialect? I learned this as "top drawer", and it's
> the only form the OED has.
>
Wish I could remember the name, but I heard an American (or American
> fabzorba <myles....@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
>> than top draw
>
> Typo, eggcorn, or dialect? I learned this as "top drawer", and it's
> the only form the OED has.
>
sounding) singer on the radio the other day who sang "draw" with a
distinct R on the end.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jul 9, 2012, 11:13:55 PM7/9/12
to
On 9/07/12 12:53 PM, fabzorba wrote:
> Of course, "top draw" as indicating the very first and finest
> selection from an entire crop, is a possibility, as compared with
> "first fruits" or "extra virgin", which designates olives that have
> yet to be stuffed. Does "top drawer" REALLY designate true worth. Does
> not one keep the least perishable, and most "common" and utilitarian
> of their artifacts in the most readily available drawer - the top one?
> Where would you keep your best crystal, and your finest china, and
> your family heirlooms, in the "top drawer", or in the least visible
> one, the "bottom drawer"?
Surely you keep your tops in the top drawer and your drawers in the bottom.
> Of course, "top draw" as indicating the very first and finest
> selection from an entire crop, is a possibility, as compared with
> "first fruits" or "extra virgin", which designates olives that have
> yet to be stuffed. Does "top drawer" REALLY designate true worth. Does
> not one keep the least perishable, and most "common" and utilitarian
> of their artifacts in the most readily available drawer - the top one?
> Where would you keep your best crystal, and your finest china, and
> your family heirlooms, in the "top drawer", or in the least visible
> one, the "bottom drawer"?
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jul 9, 2012, 11:19:09 PM7/9/12
to
On 10/07/12 4:58 AM, Don Phillipson wrote:
> So in 1500 AD a fishmonger or an ironmonger ranked high, at
> least among non-aristocrats, not least because he had a permanent
> economic base, protected by law rather than subject to the king's whim.
> The aristocrat's disdain for "trade" seems to be a 19th-century
> invention (perhaps also helping the non-trade bourgeoisie to feel
> they were going up in the world, sending their boys to the same
> "public schools" as lordlings, etc.)
Without checking, I would suggest the distinction started somewhat
> So in 1500 AD a fishmonger or an ironmonger ranked high, at
> least among non-aristocrats, not least because he had a permanent
> economic base, protected by law rather than subject to the king's whim.
> The aristocrat's disdain for "trade" seems to be a 19th-century
> invention (perhaps also helping the non-trade bourgeoisie to feel
> they were going up in the world, sending their boys to the same
> "public schools" as lordlings, etc.)
earlier in the 18th century. My memory tells me that some aristocrats
were already investing in coal and iron mines at that time. Those whose
wealth still consisted entirely in land could not have felt entirely
happy about this.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jul 9, 2012, 11:25:05 PM7/9/12
to
nylon stockings and chocolates would have been more important than the
uniform. Of the three "overs", it was the "overpaid" that made the men
so jealous, plus even when rationing was long gone, the Americans had
access to a number of things that were still largely unavailable at an
affordable price elsewhere. There is also the problem that, by and
large, they were a lot cleaner and more polite than our own guys.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jul 9, 2012, 11:26:51 PM7/9/12
to
--
Robert Bannister
Message has been deleted
fabzorba
Jul 10, 2012, 1:17:58 AM7/10/12
to
On 7월10일, 오후1시25분, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >> --
> > This reminded me of a plan a mate of mine had years ago, when American
> > marines and soldiers would do their R & R (Rest and Recreation) here
> > in Sydney. Aussie sheilas would treat them like celebrities and do
> > anything to meet them, and were very easily bedded. Idea was to
> > procure an American service uniform and hang out in King's Cross, and
> > wait for the hordes of gals to turn up. Could have worked like a
> > dream.
>
> If it was anything like England after the War, the modern equivalent of
> nylon stockings and chocolates would have been more important than the
> uniform. Of the three "overs", it was the "overpaid" that made the men
> so jealous, plus even when rationing was long gone, the Americans had
> access to a number of things that were still largely unavailable at an
> affordable price elsewhere. There is also the problem that, by and
> large, they were a lot cleaner and more polite than our own guys.
Hell, I'd give the sheilas some chocs and nylons for a chance of a leg
> >> --
> > This reminded me of a plan a mate of mine had years ago, when American
> > marines and soldiers would do their R & R (Rest and Recreation) here
> > in Sydney. Aussie sheilas would treat them like celebrities and do
> > anything to meet them, and were very easily bedded. Idea was to
> > procure an American service uniform and hang out in King's Cross, and
> > wait for the hordes of gals to turn up. Could have worked like a
> > dream.
>
> If it was anything like England after the War, the modern equivalent of
> nylon stockings and chocolates would have been more important than the
> uniform. Of the three "overs", it was the "overpaid" that made the men
> so jealous, plus even when rationing was long gone, the Americans had
> access to a number of things that were still largely unavailable at an
> affordable price elsewhere. There is also the problem that, by and
> large, they were a lot cleaner and more polite than our own guys.
over. Be the least I could do. Literally.
myles [is a river to sheilas needing choccies] paulsen
fabzorba
Jul 10, 2012, 1:19:53 AM7/10/12
to
On 7월10일, 오후1시19분, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> Without checking, I would suggest the distinction started somewhat
> earlier in the 18th century. My memory tells me that some aristocrats
> were already investing in coal and iron mines at that time. Those whose
> wealth still consisted entirely in land could not have felt entirely
> happy about this.
>
A thousand pardons, dear sir. Had I known of your venerable years, I
>
> Without checking, I would suggest the distinction started somewhat
> earlier in the 18th century. My memory tells me that some aristocrats
> were already investing in coal and iron mines at that time. Those whose
> wealth still consisted entirely in land could not have felt entirely
> happy about this.
>
would have been ever so much more accommodating.
myles [is a spring chicken by comparison - see veg thread] paulsen
fabzorba
Jul 10, 2012, 1:34:41 AM7/10/12
to
On 7월10일, 오후1시33분, Lewis <g.kr...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <a61kvjFqs...@mid.individual.net>
> Oddly enough, exactly the opposite of that.
>
> Socks and underwear are in the top drawer. Shorts or pants (Nov-Feb
> only) next, and shirts last.
>
> Doesn't everyone?
>
No everyone doesn't. Im someone who loses things easily and gets lost
a lot, and is generally absent minded, rather like ahhh...Einstein,
that's who. You know, apart from Relativity, Einstein has given people
like us who button their shirts skew whiff and so on a wonderful
mentor and apologist.
I could put this into a self-help book, and now someone certainly
will. But if you have trouble remembering where you stored things, and
you are reluctant to label drawers and cupboards, then I invite you
Follow Fabzorba and do it the Fabzorba Fashion way, i.e. the smart,
Fun way.
In my setup, I have beanies and hats in the top drawer, then come
ties, then T-shirts, then shorts, then underpants and condoms, and
lastly slippers and shoes. Shirts and trousers are hung separately.
You see the logic? The set of drawers are mapped out as if they were a
homunculus of the human body itself, with the head on top and the feet
at the bottom. You always know exactly where anything is!
myles [thank you, thank you, I solve problems, that's what I do...]
paulsen
> In message <a61kvjFqs...@mid.individual.net>
>
> Socks and underwear are in the top drawer. Shorts or pants (Nov-Feb
> only) next, and shirts last.
>
> Doesn't everyone?
>
No everyone doesn't. Im someone who loses things easily and gets lost
a lot, and is generally absent minded, rather like ahhh...Einstein,
that's who. You know, apart from Relativity, Einstein has given people
like us who button their shirts skew whiff and so on a wonderful
mentor and apologist.
I could put this into a self-help book, and now someone certainly
will. But if you have trouble remembering where you stored things, and
you are reluctant to label drawers and cupboards, then I invite you
Follow Fabzorba and do it the Fabzorba Fashion way, i.e. the smart,
Fun way.
In my setup, I have beanies and hats in the top drawer, then come
ties, then T-shirts, then shorts, then underpants and condoms, and
lastly slippers and shoes. Shirts and trousers are hung separately.
You see the logic? The set of drawers are mapped out as if they were a
homunculus of the human body itself, with the head on top and the feet
at the bottom. You always know exactly where anything is!
myles [thank you, thank you, I solve problems, that's what I do...]
paulsen
Message has been deleted
Dr Nick
Jul 10, 2012, 2:15:53 AM7/10/12
to
Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> writes:
> In message <a61kvj...@mid.individual.net>
shirts) but otherwise, yes. Except if I'm not careful the three drawers
for my stuff get annexed by the owners of the 20+ other drawers in the
house.
> In message <a61kvj...@mid.individual.net>
> Oddly enough, exactly the opposite of that.
>
> Socks and underwear are in the top drawer. Shorts or pants (Nov-Feb
> only) next, and shirts last.
>
> Doesn't everyone?
I hang my trousers (and my work shirts [US:dress shirts] and my dress
>
> Socks and underwear are in the top drawer. Shorts or pants (Nov-Feb
> only) next, and shirts last.
>
> Doesn't everyone?
shirts) but otherwise, yes. Except if I'm not careful the three drawers
for my stuff get annexed by the owners of the 20+ other drawers in the
house.
fabzorba
Jul 10, 2012, 2:16:30 AM7/10/12
to
On 7월10일, 오후3시58분, Lewis <g.kr...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <78fd66b4-4ddc-4b0c-9472-dfeb9aa0f...@f8g2000pbf.googlegroups.com>
> then shorts (or pants in blistering cold), then shirts. Socks are last,
> but they are up top with the underwear because of space constraints and
> to remind me to get my keys, wallet, and phone off the top of the
> dresser.
>
> Ties? We don't need no ties. We don't have to show you no stinking ties!
>
Well, I know what they call you when you DO wear a tie: the defendant.
myles [did I really just say that? ] paulsen
> In message <78fd66b4-4ddc-4b0c-9472-dfeb9aa0f...@f8g2000pbf.googlegroups.com>
> fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In my setup, I have beanies and hats in the top drawer, then come
> > ties, then T-shirts, then shorts, then underpants and condoms, and
> > lastly slippers and shoes. Shirts and trousers are hung separately.
> > You see the logic? The set of drawers are mapped out as if they were a
> > homunculus of the human body itself, with the head on top and the feet
> > at the bottom. You always know exactly where anything is!
>
> My system is simply the order that clothes are put on. Underwear first,
>
> > In my setup, I have beanies and hats in the top drawer, then come
> > ties, then T-shirts, then shorts, then underpants and condoms, and
> > lastly slippers and shoes. Shirts and trousers are hung separately.
> > You see the logic? The set of drawers are mapped out as if they were a
> > homunculus of the human body itself, with the head on top and the feet
> > at the bottom. You always know exactly where anything is!
>
> then shorts (or pants in blistering cold), then shirts. Socks are last,
> but they are up top with the underwear because of space constraints and
> to remind me to get my keys, wallet, and phone off the top of the
> dresser.
>
> Ties? We don't need no ties. We don't have to show you no stinking ties!
>
Well, I know what they call you when you DO wear a tie: the defendant.
myles [did I really just say that? ] paulsen
abc
Jul 10, 2012, 2:30:05 AM7/10/12
to
Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>
>>>> Since we're on the subject, someone please please also mention the
>>>> one about the difference between a costermonger and a dachshund ...
>>>
>>> A costermonger bawls his wares on the pavement (AmE sidewalk).
>>
>> "... and a dachsund is a short-legged, long-bodied dog (AmE dog) of a
>> breed belonging to the hound family."
>>
>> Nope, I don't get it. Must be alternative comedy.
>>
>> Cheers - Ian
>> (BrE: Yorks., Hants.)
>>
>
> I think the addition of "out" makes it more comprehensible.
Yep, the "out" was missing there.
>>>
>>>> Since we're on the subject, someone please please also mention the
>>>> one about the difference between a costermonger and a dachshund ...
>>>
>>> A costermonger bawls his wares on the pavement (AmE sidewalk).
>>
>> "... and a dachsund is a short-legged, long-bodied dog (AmE dog) of a
>> breed belonging to the hound family."
>>
>> Nope, I don't get it. Must be alternative comedy.
>>
>> Cheers - Ian
>> (BrE: Yorks., Hants.)
>>
>
> I think the addition of "out" makes it more comprehensible.
abc
Jul 10, 2012, 2:30:54 AM7/10/12
to
R H Draney wrote:
>
> (Neither of which can compete with "What's the difference between a nun in
> church and one in the bath?")...r
>
Not familiar with that one. Please elaborate.
>
> (Neither of which can compete with "What's the difference between a nun in
> church and one in the bath?")...r
>
/abc
abc
Jul 10, 2012, 2:32:11 AM7/10/12
to
R H Draney
Jul 10, 2012, 11:36:11 AM7/10/12
to
fabzorba filted:
eyedrops/cold remedies/toothpaste just below that, stuff for the
belly/bowels/bum on subsequently lower shelves, and the corn pads at the
bottom....r
>
>In my setup, I have beanies and hats in the top drawer, then come
>ties, then T-shirts, then shorts, then underpants and condoms, and
>lastly slippers and shoes. Shirts and trousers are hung separately.
>You see the logic? The set of drawers are mapped out as if they were a
>homunculus of the human body itself, with the head on top and the feet
>at the bottom. You always know exactly where anything is!
For years I've been doing this with the medicine cabinet...aspirin on top,
>In my setup, I have beanies and hats in the top drawer, then come
>ties, then T-shirts, then shorts, then underpants and condoms, and
>lastly slippers and shoes. Shirts and trousers are hung separately.
>You see the logic? The set of drawers are mapped out as if they were a
>homunculus of the human body itself, with the head on top and the feet
>at the bottom. You always know exactly where anything is!
eyedrops/cold remedies/toothpaste just below that, stuff for the
belly/bowels/bum on subsequently lower shelves, and the corn pads at the
bottom....r
Message has been deleted
Robert Bannister
Jul 10, 2012, 11:25:10 PM7/10/12
to
On 10/07/12 1:19 PM, fabzorba wrote:
reign of good King George the Second' was good enough for us, but we
start forgetting these things as we get older. Please don't venerate me;
I don't want to go to the veterinarian.
--
Robert Bannister
> On 7占쏙옙10占쏙옙, 占쏙옙占쏙옙1占쏙옙19占쏙옙, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>
>> Without checking, I would suggest the distinction started somewhat
>> earlier in the 18th century. My memory tells me that some aristocrats
>> were already investing in coal and iron mines at that time. Those whose
>> wealth still consisted entirely in land could not have felt entirely
>> happy about this.
>>
> A thousand pardons, dear sir. Had I known of your venerable years, I
> would have been ever so much more accommodating.
Of course, back then we didn't talk about centuries and such. 'In the
>>
>> Without checking, I would suggest the distinction started somewhat
>> earlier in the 18th century. My memory tells me that some aristocrats
>> were already investing in coal and iron mines at that time. Those whose
>> wealth still consisted entirely in land could not have felt entirely
>> happy about this.
>>
> A thousand pardons, dear sir. Had I known of your venerable years, I
> would have been ever so much more accommodating.
reign of good King George the Second' was good enough for us, but we
start forgetting these things as we get older. Please don't venerate me;
I don't want to go to the veterinarian.
--
Robert Bannister
Guy Barry
Jul 11, 2012, 2:07:42 AM7/11/12
to
On Jul 9, 6:44 pm, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
anything with Wikipedia beyond simple edits. I once tried to follow
the procedures for creating a new article and eventually gave up in
frustration.
--
Guy Barry
> On Jul 9, 9:26 am, Guy Barry <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > How would one go about creating a "disambiguation" page for
> > "cheesemonger"? I think there ought to be some sort of reference to
> > the literal sense.
>
> I agree with you (and Myles, I take it). Do you really want to know
> how, in which case I'd be happy to tell you, or were you just making
> the suggestion, in which case I'd be happy to do it?
It'd be interesting to know how, as I have great difficulty doing
> > How would one go about creating a "disambiguation" page for
> > "cheesemonger"? I think there ought to be some sort of reference to
> > the literal sense.
>
> I agree with you (and Myles, I take it). Do you really want to know
> how, in which case I'd be happy to tell you, or were you just making
> the suggestion, in which case I'd be happy to do it?
anything with Wikipedia beyond simple edits. I once tried to follow
the procedures for creating a new article and eventually gave up in
frustration.
--
Guy Barry
Snidely
Jul 12, 2012, 1:33:04 AM7/12/12
to
Guy Barry was thinking very hard :
Making a new article is extremely easy. Making it available to others
is the hard part. (Done once)
/dps
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
is the hard part. (Done once)
/dps
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
fabzorba
Jul 12, 2012, 3:00:26 AM7/12/12
to
On Jul 10, 3:58 pm, Lewis <g.kr...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <78fd66b4-4ddc-4b0c-9472-dfeb9aa0f...@f8g2000pbf.googlegroups.com>
email in-box has been crammed with letters asking for elucidation on
this point. I DO wear 'em, you know. A lot of Ozzies do, contrary to
myth.
myles [was this worth it? Who can tell?] paulsen
> In message <78fd66b4-4ddc-4b0c-9472-dfeb9aa0f...@f8g2000pbf.googlegroups.com>
> fabzorba <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In my setup, I have beanies and hats in the top drawer, then come
> > ties, then T-shirts, then shorts, then underpants and condoms, and
> > lastly slippers and shoes. Shirts and trousers are hung separately.
> > You see the logic? The set of drawers are mapped out as if they were a
> > homunculus of the human body itself, with the head on top and the feet
> > at the bottom. You always know exactly where anything is!
>
>
> > In my setup, I have beanies and hats in the top drawer, then come
> > ties, then T-shirts, then shorts, then underpants and condoms, and
> > lastly slippers and shoes. Shirts and trousers are hung separately.
> > You see the logic? The set of drawers are mapped out as if they were a
> > homunculus of the human body itself, with the head on top and the feet
> > at the bottom. You always know exactly where anything is!
>
> My system is simply the order that clothes are put on. Underwear first,
> then shorts (or pants in blistering cold), then shirts. Socks are last,
> but they are up top with the underwear because of space constraints and
> to remind me to get my keys, wallet, and phone off the top of the
> dresser.
>
Sorry, I left out socks which are just above the slippers draw. My
> then shorts (or pants in blistering cold), then shirts. Socks are last,
> but they are up top with the underwear because of space constraints and
> to remind me to get my keys, wallet, and phone off the top of the
> dresser.
>
email in-box has been crammed with letters asking for elucidation on
this point. I DO wear 'em, you know. A lot of Ozzies do, contrary to
myth.
myles [was this worth it? Who can tell?] paulsen
fabzorba
Jul 12, 2012, 3:14:24 AM7/12/12
to
They are by far the worst thing in that wonderful site, and appear to
be written by very long-winded geeks with no sense of style or even
the pedagogic practicalities of EXPLAINING something to a newbie.
There are a lot of newsgroup FAQs like that too.
Something that in common with all these is that the original writers
of this dreck simply have no idea that anything at all is amiss, and
one's attempts to clean these aegean stables is met with overt
hostility towards your attempts to override their writing with your
"personal" preferences. Some of the efforts of editors in these areas,
many with senior authority, have to be seen to be believed.
This has the makings of a decent new thread here, and one which may do
some good in the virtual world. The identification of the very worst
of in these FAQs (not aue's, which is very good), and in Wikipedia
might lead to better writing there.
myles [will edit for a roll in the hay] paulsen
fabzorba
Jul 12, 2012, 3:33:30 AM7/12/12
to
On Jul 10, 6:58 am, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> "fabzorba" <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9664f2e8-ae41-4742...@tu6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
> involved in trade, even if they were not literally peddlers (as they
> had shops). The English have the world's most sensitive barometer
> measuring matters to do with class on a social level, and "trade" was
> always sniffed at.
>
>
>
> It is more complicated than that . . . By the late mediaeval period,
> the merchants of London were the local aristocracy, many of them
> richer than aristocrats with titles: and they maintained their wealth
> by giving themselves monopoly power through the livery guilds
> (in the self-governing City of London, separate from Westminster
> etc.) and in the House of Commons, which in the 17th century
> often carried more weight than the House of Lords.
> --
Thanks for this erudite reply. I am supposing that the rather tacky
feel of a lot of these -monger words has to do with the long era of
British snobbery towards "trade". The first born son might become an
officer, others might go into medicine or "take silk", and the fool of
the family is straight for the Church (the CoE of course), but no son
of the aristocracy ever went into "trade".
I have the feeling that matters were very different in Europe,
particularly in France. This is where providores had the status of
artists, and culinary matters are very highly regarded. They gave us
delicatessens, and restaurants, and charcuteries, and much else
besides. No "cheesemongers" there. It is impossible to think of a
French version of the "cheese shop sketch".
I remember what Australian food was like in the 1950s and '60s. There
was ONE cheese - Kraft's Processed. I have to admit that after decades
of grilling it on toast, and trying some REAL cheese for the first
time when I was 17, I was surprised to find that it MELTED. I soon
determined that it was ONLY Kraft's PROCESSED cheese that simply
blistered and burned under heat.
Of course, since the late '70s, Aussie food has become vastly more
interesting, and places like Sydney are food capitals of the world. I
see British cooking shows now, and see how much it has changed since
Elizabeth David tried to do something about "decent English grub". Ah,
but do the Scots still pine for a slab of smoked haddock, and complain
"that's nae how you make the porridge?"
myles [will eat haggis when losing a bet...] paulsen
> "fabzorba" <myles.abzo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9664f2e8-ae41-4742...@tu6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
>
> <<
> I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
> than top draw came about initially coz it had to do with those
> <<
> I am speculating that the connotation of "monger" with something less
> involved in trade, even if they were not literally peddlers (as they
> had shops). The English have the world's most sensitive barometer
> measuring matters to do with class on a social level, and "trade" was
> always sniffed at.
>
>
>
> It is more complicated than that . . . By the late mediaeval period,
> the merchants of London were the local aristocracy, many of them
> richer than aristocrats with titles: and they maintained their wealth
> by giving themselves monopoly power through the livery guilds
> (in the self-governing City of London, separate from Westminster
> etc.) and in the House of Commons, which in the 17th century
> often carried more weight than the House of Lords.
>
> So in 1500 AD a fishmonger or an ironmonger ranked high, at
> least among non-aristocrats, not least because he had a permanent
> economic base, protected by law rather than subject to the king's whim.
> The aristocrat's disdain for "trade" seems to be a 19th-century
> invention (perhaps also helping the non-trade bourgeoisie to feel
> they were going up in the world, sending their boys to the same
> "public schools" as lordlings, etc.)
>
> Non olet pecunia, as someone said. This has usually been true.
> So in 1500 AD a fishmonger or an ironmonger ranked high, at
> least among non-aristocrats, not least because he had a permanent
> economic base, protected by law rather than subject to the king's whim.
> The aristocrat's disdain for "trade" seems to be a 19th-century
> invention (perhaps also helping the non-trade bourgeoisie to feel
> they were going up in the world, sending their boys to the same
> "public schools" as lordlings, etc.)
>
> --
Thanks for this erudite reply. I am supposing that the rather tacky
feel of a lot of these -monger words has to do with the long era of
British snobbery towards "trade". The first born son might become an
officer, others might go into medicine or "take silk", and the fool of
the family is straight for the Church (the CoE of course), but no son
of the aristocracy ever went into "trade".
I have the feeling that matters were very different in Europe,
particularly in France. This is where providores had the status of
artists, and culinary matters are very highly regarded. They gave us
delicatessens, and restaurants, and charcuteries, and much else
besides. No "cheesemongers" there. It is impossible to think of a
French version of the "cheese shop sketch".
I remember what Australian food was like in the 1950s and '60s. There
was ONE cheese - Kraft's Processed. I have to admit that after decades
of grilling it on toast, and trying some REAL cheese for the first
time when I was 17, I was surprised to find that it MELTED. I soon
determined that it was ONLY Kraft's PROCESSED cheese that simply
blistered and burned under heat.
Of course, since the late '70s, Aussie food has become vastly more
interesting, and places like Sydney are food capitals of the world. I
see British cooking shows now, and see how much it has changed since
Elizabeth David tried to do something about "decent English grub". Ah,
but do the Scots still pine for a slab of smoked haddock, and complain
"that's nae how you make the porridge?"
myles [will eat haggis when losing a bet...] paulsen
Robert Bannister
Jul 12, 2012, 11:30:05 PM7/12/12
to
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jul 12, 2012, 11:37:38 PM7/12/12
to
On 12/07/12 3:33 PM, fabzorba wrote:
> I have the feeling that matters were very different in Europe,
> particularly in France. This is where providores had the status of
> artists, and culinary matters are very highly regarded. They gave us
> delicatessens,
Ahem. Point of order: "delikat Essen" is German, so such shops were most
> I have the feeling that matters were very different in Europe,
> particularly in France. This is where providores had the status of
> artists, and culinary matters are very highly regarded. They gave us
> delicatessens,
likely introduced by Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe.
and restaurants, and charcuteries, and much else
> besides. No "cheesemongers" there. It is impossible to think of a
> French version of the "cheese shop sketch".
>
> I remember what Australian food was like in the 1950s and '60s. There
> was ONE cheese - Kraft's Processed.
you could get freshly caught squid sometimes free, unless it was going
for bait.
>
> Of course, since the late '70s, Aussie food has become vastly more
> interesting, and places like Sydney are food capitals of the world.
dogs in everything in Australia these days, but especially in sport and
food (and drive-by shootings).
--
Robert Bannister
James Hogg
Jul 13, 2012, 1:27:35 AM7/13/12
to
Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 12/07/12 3:33 PM, fabzorba wrote:
>
>> I have the feeling that matters were very different in Europe,
>> particularly in France. This is where providores had the status of
>> artists, and culinary matters are very highly regarded. They gave us
>> delicatessens,
>
> Ahem. Point of order: "delikat Essen" is German, so such shops were most
> likely introduced by Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe.
Possibly, but your etymology is wrong. It has nothing to do with
> On 12/07/12 3:33 PM, fabzorba wrote:
>
>> I have the feeling that matters were very different in Europe,
>> particularly in France. This is where providores had the status of
>> artists, and culinary matters are very highly regarded. They gave us
>> delicatessens,
>
> Ahem. Point of order: "delikat Essen" is German, so such shops were most
> likely introduced by Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe.
"Essen". The German singular is "Delikatesse", borrowed from the French
"délicatesse" (cf. "finesse"). Kulge says that the Austrians got their
word from Italian "delicatezza".
--
James
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
Jul 13, 2012, 2:13:38 AM7/13/12
to
fabzorba wrote:
>
> Sorry, I left out socks which are just above the slippers draw.
>
Are yours Wollongong socks or Woolloomooloo socks?
>
> Sorry, I left out socks which are just above the slippers draw.
>
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
fabzorba
Jul 13, 2012, 2:27:51 AM7/13/12
to
On Jul 13, 1:37 pm, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> But there was meat. Oodles of lamb and beef and all very cheap. And then
> you could get freshly caught squid sometimes free, unless it was going
> for bait.
>
> > Of course, since the late '70s, Aussie food has become vastly more
> > interesting, and places like Sydney are food capitals of the world.
>
> Don't say that in front of a Melburnian. They seem to think they are top
> dogs in everything in Australia these days, but especially in sport and
> food (and drive-by shootings).
Of course, squid was only eaten by the Greeks, and no Aussie would
>
> But there was meat. Oodles of lamb and beef and all very cheap. And then
> you could get freshly caught squid sometimes free, unless it was going
> for bait.
>
> > Of course, since the late '70s, Aussie food has become vastly more
> > interesting, and places like Sydney are food capitals of the world.
>
> Don't say that in front of a Melburnian. They seem to think they are top
> dogs in everything in Australia these days, but especially in sport and
> food (and drive-by shootings).
touch back then. Like the Yanks, and unlike the Brits, we had a
massive taste for steaks. (Perhaps the Brits could not afford them, or
the colder climate meant the BBQ was not a permanent fixture there,
and roasts were preferred.) Otoh, real Aussies had their steak done
well, which over here meant "Just like it was nailed to a gum tree in
a bushfire." Back then, if you ordered a steak medium, it would be
what is now "well done". For that reason, the very few who had a taste
for seeing some pink in their meat, might explain to the waiter: "Just
knock its horns off, wipe its arse and dump it on the plate".
myles [our version of sushi...] paulsen
Peter Moylan
Jul 13, 2012, 10:00:48 AM7/13/12
to
On 13/07/12 13:37, Robert Bannister wrote:
> On 12/07/12 3:33 PM, fabzorba wrote:
>
>> I have the feeling that matters were very different in Europe,
>> particularly in France. This is where providores had the status of
>> artists, and culinary matters are very highly regarded. They gave us
>> delicatessens,
>
> Ahem. Point of order: "delikat Essen" is German, so such shops were most
> likely introduced by Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe.
When a delicatessen opened in the town I grew up in, we native
> On 12/07/12 3:33 PM, fabzorba wrote:
>
>> I have the feeling that matters were very different in Europe,
>> particularly in France. This is where providores had the status of
>> artists, and culinary matters are very highly regarded. They gave us
>> delicatessens,
>
> Ahem. Point of order: "delikat Essen" is German, so such shops were most
> likely introduced by Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe.
Australians wouldn't go near it. It sold only to immigrants.
They weren't Jews, because there was only one Jewish family in the town.
I can remember only one German family and one Polish family, for that
matter. We had a lot of Italians and Greeks and Slavs. I suspect that
the Italians were the main customers.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Robert Bannister
Jul 13, 2012, 10:53:12 PM7/13/12
to
--
Robert Bannister
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
Jul 13, 2012, 11:30:08 PM7/13/12
to
Peter Moylan
Jul 14, 2012, 12:37:04 AM7/14/12
to
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
Jul 14, 2012, 1:12:32 AM7/14/12
to
Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> James Hogg wrote:
>>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>>>>> Ahem. Point of order: "delikat Essen" is German, so such shops were
>>>>> most likely introduced by Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe.
>
>>>> Possibly, but your etymology is wrong. It has nothing to do with
>>>> "Essen". The German singular is "Delikatesse", borrowed from the
>>>> French "délicatesse" (cf. "finesse"). Kulge says that the Austrians
>>>> got their word from Italian "delicatezza".
>
>>> You learn something every day on Usenet.
>
>> Ja, unser James ist sehr kulg! :-)
>
> Kulg? Is that Italian for klug?
>
No. It's a disguised "Oy!" James will understand.
>
> Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>> James Hogg wrote:
>>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>>>>> Ahem. Point of order: "delikat Essen" is German, so such shops were
>>>>> most likely introduced by Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe.
>
>>>> Possibly, but your etymology is wrong. It has nothing to do with
>>>> "Essen". The German singular is "Delikatesse", borrowed from the
>>>> French "délicatesse" (cf. "finesse"). Kulge says that the Austrians
>>>> got their word from Italian "delicatezza".
>
>>> You learn something every day on Usenet.
>
>> Ja, unser James ist sehr kulg! :-)
>
> Kulg? Is that Italian for klug?
>
Peter Moylan
Jul 14, 2012, 3:04:36 AM7/14/12
to
Mike L
Jul 14, 2012, 1:48:32 PM7/14/12
to
On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 17:04:36 +1000, Peter Moylan
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>On 14/07/12 15:12, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>> Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>> James Hogg wrote:
>>>>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Ahem. Point of order: "delikat Essen" is German, so such shops were
>>>>>>> most likely introduced by Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe.
>>>
>>>>>> Possibly, but your etymology is wrong. It has nothing to do with
>>>>>> "Essen". The German singular is "Delikatesse", borrowed from the
>>>>>> French "délicatesse" (cf. "finesse"). Kulge says that the Austrians
>>>>>> got their word from Italian "delicatezza".
>>>
>>>>> You learn something every day on Usenet.
>>>
>>>> Ja, unser James ist sehr kulg! :-)
>>>
>>> Kulg? Is that Italian for klug?
>>>
>> No. It's a disguised "Oy!" James will understand.
>>
>Now I see it. Expressed with great délicatesse.
Mind you, I'd like to see Frances M's cookery notes.
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>On 14/07/12 15:12, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>> Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
>>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>> James Hogg wrote:
>>>>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Ahem. Point of order: "delikat Essen" is German, so such shops were
>>>>>>> most likely introduced by Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe.
>>>
>>>>>> Possibly, but your etymology is wrong. It has nothing to do with
>>>>>> "Essen". The German singular is "Delikatesse", borrowed from the
>>>>>> French "délicatesse" (cf. "finesse"). Kulge says that the Austrians
>>>>>> got their word from Italian "delicatezza".
>>>
>>>>> You learn something every day on Usenet.
>>>
>>>> Ja, unser James ist sehr kulg! :-)
>>>
>>> Kulg? Is that Italian for klug?
>>>
>> No. It's a disguised "Oy!" James will understand.
>>
>Now I see it. Expressed with great délicatesse.
--
Mike.
Mack A. Damia
Jul 14, 2012, 2:53:33 PM7/14/12
to
I heard a reporter on NBC's "Rock Center" pronounce the word "deity"
as "DATEY".
Any legitimate foundation to this, or is it just plain ignorance?
There is a news reader on MSNBC who couldn't pronounce "Trafalgar"
last year.
--
Message has been deleted
LFS
Jul 14, 2012, 6:02:19 PM7/14/12
to
On 14/07/2012 19:53, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>
>
> I heard a reporter on NBC's "Rock Center" pronounce the word "deity"
> as "DATEY".
>
> Any legitimate foundation to this, or is it just plain ignorance?
Ignorance, I'd say.
>
>
> I heard a reporter on NBC's "Rock Center" pronounce the word "deity"
> as "DATEY".
>
> Any legitimate foundation to this, or is it just plain ignorance?
>
> There is a news reader on MSNBC who couldn't pronounce "Trafalgar"
> last year.
>
heard one emphasises the second syllable and is the name of a famous
square in London. The other emphasises the final syllable and is
sometimes used to say the name of the famous battle which the square
commemorates.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Mack A. Damia
Jul 14, 2012, 6:19:38 PM7/14/12
to
with the word as if she was unfamiliar with it.
Thanks all for your responses!
--
Andrew B
Jul 14, 2012, 7:10:20 PM7/14/12
to
On 09/07/2012 16:36, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 16:13:33 +0100, Ian Noble
> <ipn...@killspam.o2.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 08:26:33 +0100, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8 Jul 2012 abc <a...@abc.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ian Noble wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 7 Jul 2012 22:44:47 -0700 (PDT), fabzorba
>>>>> <myles....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Researching this just now, I was interested to see two other primary
>>>>>> uses of the monger, and they are in costermonger
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costermonger
>>>>>> which the wonderful Wikipedia tells us is a fruit and veg. barrow man
>>>>>> (which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think I've heard the term in the wild for a while, but it's
>>>>> one I'm very familiar with. I was going to post a reply to that effect
>>>>> until about it until I got to the above part of your post, in fact.
>>>
>>>> Since we're on the subject, someone please please also mention the
>>>> one about the difference between a costermonger and a dachshund ...
>>>
>>> A costermonger bawls his wares on the pavement (AmE sidewalk).
>>
>> "... and a dachsund is a short-legged, long-bodied dog (AmE dog) of a
>> breed belonging to the hound family."
>>
>> Nope, I don't get it. Must be alternative comedy.
>>
> A costermonger bawls his wares on the pavement (AmE sidewalk).
> A dachshund wears his balls on the pavement (AmE sidewalk).
>
> Same principle as:
> What's the difference between a Foot Spa and Ringo Starr?
> A Foot Spa bucks up the feet.
> Ringo Starr fucks up the beat.
Wouldn't that make it "A dachshund walls his bears on the pavement"?
> On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 16:13:33 +0100, Ian Noble
> <ipn...@killspam.o2.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 08:26:33 +0100, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8 Jul 2012 abc <a...@abc.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ian Noble wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 7 Jul 2012 22:44:47 -0700 (PDT), fabzorba
>>>>> <myles....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Researching this just now, I was interested to see two other primary
>>>>>> uses of the monger, and they are in costermonger
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costermonger
>>>>>> which the wonderful Wikipedia tells us is a fruit and veg. barrow man
>>>>>> (which we have here but no one would refer to him as a costermonger,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think I've heard the term in the wild for a while, but it's
>>>>> one I'm very familiar with. I was going to post a reply to that effect
>>>>> until about it until I got to the above part of your post, in fact.
>>>
>>>> Since we're on the subject, someone please please also mention the
>>>> one about the difference between a costermonger and a dachshund ...
>>>
>>> A costermonger bawls his wares on the pavement (AmE sidewalk).
>>
>> "... and a dachsund is a short-legged, long-bodied dog (AmE dog) of a
>> breed belonging to the hound family."
>>
>> Nope, I don't get it. Must be alternative comedy.
>>
> A costermonger bawls his wares on the pavement (AmE sidewalk).
> A dachshund wears his balls on the pavement (AmE sidewalk).
>
> Same principle as:
> What's the difference between a Foot Spa and Ringo Starr?
> A Foot Spa bucks up the feet.
> Ringo Starr fucks up the beat.
Wouldn't that make it "A dachshund walls his bears on the pavement"?
Robert Bannister
Jul 14, 2012, 7:41:47 PM7/14/12
to
On 14/07/12 11:30 AM, Reinhold {Rey} Aman wrote:
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> James Hogg wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ahem. Point of order: "delikat Essen" is German, so such shops were
>>>> most likely introduced by Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe.
>>>
>>> Possibly, but your etymology is wrong. It has nothing to do with
>>> "Essen". The German singular is "Delikatesse", borrowed from the
>>> French "d�licatesse" (cf. "finesse"). Kulge says that the Austrians
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> James Hogg wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ahem. Point of order: "delikat Essen" is German, so such shops were
>>>> most likely introduced by Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe.
>>>
>>> Possibly, but your etymology is wrong. It has nothing to do with
>>> "Essen". The German singular is "Delikatesse", borrowed from the
>>> got their word from Italian "delicatezza".
>>
>> You learn something every day on Usenet.
>>
> Ja, unser James ist sehr kulg!
>
I have to admit that after sending that reply, I had a quick look in my
>>
>> You learn something every day on Usenet.
>>
> Ja, unser James ist sehr kulg!
>
trusty Wahrig "Deutsches W�rterbuch" just to make sure I wasn't being
had, but of course James is correct.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jul 14, 2012, 7:44:20 PM7/14/12
to
"TRUFFle-gah".
--
Robert Bannister
Jerry Friedman
Jul 14, 2012, 8:25:28 PM7/14/12
to
On Jul 14, 3:25 pm, Lewis <g.kr...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <4rf308d82e2gh3f2d2dtfef8igqan6v...@4ax.com>
> I consider right, though it seems less common). I've never heard DATEY,
> but maybe the mumbled/stumbled DAY-ity?
...
Was that "the" typo for "he", "she", or "they"? Not that it matters.
AHD4 gives both "ee" and "ay" for "deity", "deify", "reify", and
"simultaneity", with "ee" first. I toyed with the idea of looking up
"velleity", but it didn't seem worth while.
--
Jerry Friedman
> In message <4rf308d82e2gh3f2d2dtfef8igqan6v...@4ax.com>
> Mack A Damia <mybaconbu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I heard a reporter on NBC's "Rock Center" pronounce the word "deity"
> > as "DATEY".
> > Any legitimate foundation to this, or is it just plain ignorance?
>
> I've only heard "DEE-ity" (which I consider wrong) and "DAY-ity" (which
>
> > I heard a reporter on NBC's "Rock Center" pronounce the word "deity"
> > as "DATEY".
> > Any legitimate foundation to this, or is it just plain ignorance?
>
> I consider right, though it seems less common). I've never heard DATEY,
> but maybe the mumbled/stumbled DAY-ity?
...
Was that "the" typo for "he", "she", or "they"? Not that it matters.
AHD4 gives both "ee" and "ay" for "deity", "deify", "reify", and
"simultaneity", with "ee" first. I toyed with the idea of looking up
"velleity", but it didn't seem worth while.
--
Jerry Friedman
R H Draney
Jul 14, 2012, 8:33:26 PM7/14/12
to
Jerry Friedman filted:
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
>
>On Jul 14, 3:25=A0pm, Lewis <g.kr...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <4rf308d82e2gh3f2d2dtfef8igqan6v...@4ax.com>
>On Jul 14, 3:25=A0pm, Lewis <g.kr...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <4rf308d82e2gh3f2d2dtfef8igqan6v...@4ax.com>
>> =A0 Mack A =A0Damia <mybaconbu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I heard a reporter on NBC's "Rock Center" pronounce the word "deity"
>> > as "DATEY".
>> > Any legitimate foundation to this, or is it just plain ignorance?
>>
>> I've only heard "DEE-ity" (which I consider wrong) and "DAY-ity" (which
>> I consider right, though it seems less common). I've never heard DATEY,
>> but maybe the mumbled/stumbled DAY-ity?
>...
>
>Was that "the" typo for "he", "she", or "they"? Not that it matters.
>
>AHD4 gives both "ee" and "ay" for "deity", "deify", "reify", and
>"simultaneity", with "ee" first. I toyed with the idea of looking up
>"velleity", but it didn't seem worth while.
It would seem natural to anyone used to "surveillance"....r
>>
>> > I heard a reporter on NBC's "Rock Center" pronounce the word "deity"
>> > as "DATEY".
>> > Any legitimate foundation to this, or is it just plain ignorance?
>>
>> I've only heard "DEE-ity" (which I consider wrong) and "DAY-ity" (which
>> I consider right, though it seems less common). I've never heard DATEY,
>> but maybe the mumbled/stumbled DAY-ity?
>...
>
>Was that "the" typo for "he", "she", or "they"? Not that it matters.
>
>AHD4 gives both "ee" and "ay" for "deity", "deify", "reify", and
>"simultaneity", with "ee" first. I toyed with the idea of looking up
>"velleity", but it didn't seem worth while.
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Peter Moylan
Jul 14, 2012, 11:34:25 PM7/14/12
to
On 15/07/12 07:25, Lewis wrote:
> In message <4rf308d82e2gh3f2d...@4ax.com>
> In message <4rf308d82e2gh3f2d...@4ax.com>
> Mack A Damia <mybaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I heard a reporter on NBC's "Rock Center" pronounce the word "deity"
>> as "DATEY".
>
>> Any legitimate foundation to this, or is it just plain ignorance?
>
>> I heard a reporter on NBC's "Rock Center" pronounce the word "deity"
>> as "DATEY".
>
>> Any legitimate foundation to this, or is it just plain ignorance?
>
> I've only heard "DEE-ity" (which I consider wrong) and "DAY-ity" (which
> I consider right, though it seems less common). I've never heard DATEY,
> but maybe the mumbled/stumbled DAY-ity?
I have both seen and heard "diety".
> I consider right, though it seems less common). I've never heard DATEY,
> but maybe the mumbled/stumbled DAY-ity?
Guy Barry
Jul 15, 2012, 2:48:50 AM7/15/12
to
"Lewis" <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote in message
news:slrnk03ouf....@mbp55.local...
> > I heard a reporter on NBC's "Rock Center" pronounce the word "deity"
> > as "DATEY".
>
> > Any legitimate foundation to this, or is it just plain ignorance?
>
> > as "DATEY".
>
> > Any legitimate foundation to this, or is it just plain ignorance?
>
> I've only heard "DEE-ity" (which I consider wrong) and "DAY-ity" (which
> I consider right, though it seems less common). I've never heard DATEY,
> but maybe the mumbled/stumbled DAY-ity?
"DEE-ity" (/'di:ItI/) is the traditional pronunciation, which I prefer, and
> I consider right, though it seems less common). I've never heard DATEY,
> but maybe the mumbled/stumbled DAY-ity?
"DAY-ity" (/'deIItI/) is a more recent one that seems to be taking over,
much to my regret. (It can be the cause of problems when choirs are singing
the line "Hail th'incarnate Deity" in "Hark the Herald Angels Sing".) This
issue also seems to affect words like "spontaneity" and "simultaneity".
Words like "deify" and "deism" don't seem to be affected so much, though.
The combination "ei" isn't a digraph in these words; it represents two
separate syllables, and "e" on its own isn't normally pronounced "ay" (/eI/)
in English. "Datey" ('/deItI/) is clearly wrong, as it treats "ei" as a
single syllable. Whether it was down to ignorance or simply swallowing a
syllable I wouldn't like to judge.
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
Jul 15, 2012, 3:02:44 AM7/15/12
to
On Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:25:28 AM UTC+1, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> I toyed with the idea of looking up
> "velleity", but it didn't seem worth while.
Just got that one.
> I toyed with the idea of looking up
> "velleity", but it didn't seem worth while.
(This is a test post from the new Google Groups, by the way, and yes it is truly horrible. Punctuation in above text edited to match the original.)
--
Guy Barry
Guy Barry
Jul 15, 2012, 4:44:51 AM7/15/12
to
Wikipedia disambiguation page for "cheesemonger" now created (thanks to
Jerry Friedman for his help). Any comments?
--
Guy Barry
Jerry Friedman for his help). Any comments?
--
Guy Barry
Message has been deleted
Guy Barry
Jul 15, 2012, 6:51:35 AM7/15/12
to
On Jul 14, 11:02 pm, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
> There are two possible ways of pronouncing Trafalgar. The more commonly
> heard one emphasises the second syllable and is the name of a famous
> square in London. The other emphasises the final syllable and is
> sometimes used to say the name of the famous battle which the square
> commemorates.
How's it pronounced in the shipping forecast?
> There are two possible ways of pronouncing Trafalgar. The more commonly
> heard one emphasises the second syllable and is the name of a famous
> square in London. The other emphasises the final syllable and is
> sometimes used to say the name of the famous battle which the square
> commemorates.
--
Guy Barry
LFS
Jul 15, 2012, 6:58:07 AM7/15/12
to
CDB
Jul 15, 2012, 7:13:20 AM7/15/12
to
On Saturday, July 14, 2012 11:34:25 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
[give a god a bad name]
> I have both seen and heard "diety"
>
Possibly a local pronunciation of "dayity"?
[give a god a bad name]
> I have both seen and heard "diety"
>
Guy Barry
Jul 15, 2012, 10:50:12 AM7/15/12
to
Thames.
--
Guy Barry
Whiskers
Jul 15, 2012, 4:10:33 PM7/15/12
to
the Latin "deus", and that a Latin e always sounds like the e in "eh"
or like the same sound lengthened. So "day'iti" is closer than
"dee'iti".
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
James Hogg
Jul 15, 2012, 4:53:50 PM7/15/12
to
equal
femur
republic
semen
senile
and probably a thousand others.
--
James
Mike L
Jul 15, 2012, 6:03:45 PM7/15/12
to
found it was so obsolete that no pronunciation was offered, until I
clicked "Show more". The dictionary then rather grudgingly admitted
that its NED first edition had recorded the "ee" version. I haven't
said it very often, but it's always been the "ay" version for me,
following its origins. "Vineity", I should mention, seems even rarer,
and they give no pronunciation at all for it.
--
Mike.
Robert Bannister
Jul 15, 2012, 8:24:42 PM7/15/12
to
On 15/07/12 8:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> AHD4 gives both "ee" and "ay" for "deity", "deify", "reify", and
> "simultaneity", with "ee" first. I toyed with the idea of looking up
> "velleity", but it didn't seem worth while.
Which syllable do they stress in "sumultaneity"? If it's the "ta" then
> AHD4 gives both "ee" and "ay" for "deity", "deify", "reify", and
> "simultaneity", with "ee" first. I toyed with the idea of looking up
> "velleity", but it didn't seem worth while.
"ee" or just "i" seem natural; if it's the "ne" then I would expect "ay".
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jul 15, 2012, 8:26:26 PM7/15/12
to
On 16/07/12 6:03 AM, Mike L wrote:
> Boom, boom! I fancied a slice of paneity, but when I looked in OED,
> found it was so obsolete that no pronunciation was offered, until I
> clicked "Show more". The dictionary then rather grudgingly admitted
> that its NED first edition had recorded the "ee" version. I haven't
> said it very often, but it's always been the "ay" version for me,
> following its origins. "Vineity", I should mention, seems even rarer,
> and they give no pronunciation at all for it.
Is the dictionary indicating that the word should never be uttered aloud?
> Boom, boom! I fancied a slice of paneity, but when I looked in OED,
> found it was so obsolete that no pronunciation was offered, until I
> clicked "Show more". The dictionary then rather grudgingly admitted
> that its NED first edition had recorded the "ee" version. I haven't
> said it very often, but it's always been the "ay" version for me,
> following its origins. "Vineity", I should mention, seems even rarer,
> and they give no pronunciation at all for it.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Jul 15, 2012, 8:30:30 PM7/15/12
to
On 16/07/12 4:53 AM, James Hogg wrote:
French words like "f�te" and "cr�pe (paper)"?
--
Robert Bannister
> Whiskers wrote:
>> I've always understood that "deity" "deify" and so on, are derived from
>> the Latin "deus", and that a Latin e always sounds like the e in "eh"
>> or like the same sound lengthened.
>
> Exceptions to that "always" rule would include words of Latin origin like:
>
> equal
> femur
> republic
> semen
> senile
>
> and probably a thousand others.
So it's to do with how anglicised we feel the words to be. What about
>> I've always understood that "deity" "deify" and so on, are derived from
>> the Latin "deus", and that a Latin e always sounds like the e in "eh"
>> or like the same sound lengthened.
>
> Exceptions to that "always" rule would include words of Latin origin like:
>
> equal
> femur
> republic
> semen
> senile
>
> and probably a thousand others.
French words like "f�te" and "cr�pe (paper)"?
--
Robert Bannister
Jerry Friedman
Jul 15, 2012, 9:44:52 PM7/15/12
to
On Jul 15, 2:59 am, Lewis <g.kr...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <baf76811-aeca-47f8-8a0e-777ddb5c2...@o7g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
> > AHD4 gives both "ee" and "ay" for "deity", "deify", "reify", and
> > "simultaneity", with "ee" first. I toyed with the idea of looking up
> > "velleity", but it didn't seem worth while.
>
> SO there is my inconsistency. I say DAY-ity but DEE-ify.
>
> That makes no sense at all.
I say all of them with "ee" except "simultaneity", which is almost as
inconsistent. I'm not sure I've ever heard "simulta-NEE-
ity" /,saIm@lt@'ni@ti/.
--
Jerry Friedman mentions simultaneity in physics classes.
> In message <baf76811-aeca-47f8-8a0e-777ddb5c2...@o7g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
...
> > AHD4 gives both "ee" and "ay" for "deity", "deify", "reify", and
> > "simultaneity", with "ee" first. I toyed with the idea of looking up
> > "velleity", but it didn't seem worth while.
>
>
> That makes no sense at all.
I say all of them with "ee" except "simultaneity", which is almost as
inconsistent. I'm not sure I've ever heard "simulta-NEE-
ity" /,saIm@lt@'ni@ti/.
--
Jerry Friedman mentions simultaneity in physics classes.
Jerry Friedman
Jul 15, 2012, 9:49:47 PM7/15/12
to
be very unusual in American English, and would suggest having read the
word but not heard it.
--
Jerry Friedman
James Hogg
Jul 16, 2012, 1:31:55 AM7/16/12
to
French pronunciation. Long "e" in words of Latin origin naturally
becomes "ee" in English. One can speculate as to why people have started
breaking that rule in words like "deity". Perhaps they feel that the two
vowel sounds are too close together - a kind of dissimilation. Perhaps
they hear things like "in excelsis deo" with a Latinate pronunciation at
Christmas.
--
James
Guy Barry
Jul 16, 2012, 3:04:29 AM7/16/12
to
On Jul 15, 9:10 pm, Whiskers <catwhee...@operamail.com> wrote:
> I've always understood that "deity" "deify" and so on, are derived from
> the Latin "deus", and that a Latin e always sounds like the e in "eh"
> or like the same sound lengthened. So "day'iti" is closer than
> "dee'iti".
Not in English words of Latin origin. The Great Vowel Shift that
> I've always understood that "deity" "deify" and so on, are derived from
> the Latin "deus", and that a Latin e always sounds like the e in "eh"
> or like the same sound lengthened. So "day'iti" is closer than
> "dee'iti".
affected long vowels in English (creating the sounds "ay", "ee",
"eye", "oh", "yoo") affected words that had been adopted from Latin as
well as native words, and the rule is pretty much universal. For
instance, we would pronounce "creator" as kree-AY-tuh(r), whereas the
Latin word of the same spelling would have been more similar to kray-
AH-tor.
I can't offhand think of *any* words (other than those in -eity) where
a Latin long "e" is pronounced with an "eh" or "ay" sound in English.
"Series", "concede", "obesity", "deplete" (for example) all have the
"ee" sound. James Hogg has listed a few other examples.
--
Guy Barry
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