"Spices" and "herbs"

[Pamela]

Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?

I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?

[Peter Moylan]

I can't answer for AmE, but they are distinct in AusE.

Actually, I'd assume that Americans also distinguish, because I remember
that Colonel Chicken advertised his "herbs and spices", implying two
separate categories.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-03-23, Pamela wrote:

> Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
>
> I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?

Semi-officially (i.e., in cookbooks) the distinction is that herbs are
leaves, whereas spices are seeds & bark (cinammon is the only bark I
can think of offhand).

Saffron is made from specific parts of a crocus flower & I think it's
usually a "spice".


--
Most Americans are too civilized to hang skulls from baskets, having
been headhunters, of course, only as recently as Vietnam.
---Kinky Friedman

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-03-23, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 23/03/22 21:54, Pamela wrote:
>
>> Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and
>> "herbs"?
>>
>> I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?
>
> I can't answer for AmE, but they are distinct in AusE.
>
> Actually, I'd assume that Americans also distinguish, because I remember
> that Colonel Chicken advertised his "herbs and spices", implying two
> separate categories.

That's for marketing purposes!


--
And awful things are happening: we've let this drama fold,
and now the time has come at last to crush the motif of the rose.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:30:07 AM UTC-6, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-03-23, Pamela wrote:
>
> > Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
> >
> > I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?
> Semi-officially (i.e., in cookbooks) the distinction is that herbs are
> leaves, whereas spices are seeds & bark (cinammon is the only bark I
> can think of offhand).

I think it's that herbs are leaves and spices are everything else, including
fruits (pepper, chile, and many others), fruit parts (mace), and roots (ginger).

> Saffron is made from specific parts of a crocus flower & I think it's
> usually a "spice".

The stigmas (not stigmata), and I agree.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Pamela]

On 11:17 23 Mar 2022, Adam Funk said:
> On 2022-03-23, Pamela wrote:
>
>> Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and
>> "herbs"?
>>
>> I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?
>
> Semi-officially (i.e., in cookbooks) the distinction is that herbs
> are leaves, whereas spices are seeds & bark (cinammon is the only
> bark I can think of offhand).
>
> Saffron is made from specific parts of a crocus flower & I think it's
> usually a "spice".

That is quite true but what about their usage in everyday speech?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:46:56 AM UTC-4, Pamela wrote:
> On 11:17 23 Mar 2022, Adam Funk said:
> > On 2022-03-23, Pamela wrote:

> >> Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and
> >> "herbs"?

Should it differ somehow from Other English?

> >> I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?
> > Semi-officially (i.e., in cookbooks) the distinction is that herbs
> > are leaves, whereas spices are seeds & bark (cinammon is the only
> > bark I can think of offhand).
> > Saffron is made from specific parts of a crocus flower & I think it's
> > usually a "spice".
>
> That is quite true but what about their usage in everyday speech?

What "everyday speech" would be talking about them other than
discussing or teaching recipes? The supplies of all of them are
kept on the spice shelf / in the spice rack, and they are distributed
by the spice trade..

[Sam Plusnet]

On 23-Mar-22 11:07, Stefan Ram wrote:

> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
>

> In my collection of texts I find,
>
> |imported spices and local herbs
>
> , which might hint to "spices" being imported and herbs being local.
>
> The Web explains that herbs, such as thyme, basil, or
> parsley, mainly grow in a moderate climate and are from
> small, green, herbaceous plants; spices, like cloves,
> coriander, and pepper, grow in a (sub) tropical climate and
> are from flower buds, stamens, seeds, fruits, bark and roots.

In my shorthand, herbs are things you may well grow in your own garden.
Spices are imported from exotic climes, and are usually sold in small
quantities.


--
Sam Plusnet

[bruce bowser]

"Herbs are typically thought of as non-woody plants"
-- USDA Forest Service
"Spices, on the other hand, come from the non-leafy parts, including roots, bark, berries, flowers, seeds and so on."
-- TreeHugger.com

[Peter Moylan]

On 23/03/22 22:07, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> writes:

>> Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and
>> "herbs"?
>

> In my collection of texts I find,
>
> |imported spices and local herbs
>
> , which might hint to "spices" being imported and herbs being local.
>
> The Web explains that herbs, such as thyme, basil, or parsley,
> mainly grow in a moderate climate and are from small, green,
> herbaceous plants; spices, like cloves, coriander, and pepper, grow
> in a (sub) tropical climate and are from flower buds, stamens, seeds,
> fruits, bark and roots.

The Spice Islands (now part of Indonesia) were probably the main
business of the Dutch East India Company, because spices commanded such
a high price in Europe.

Indirectly, this led to the white settlement of South Africa, because
the traders needed a halfway point for re-provisioning. The voortrekkers
were the ones who got sick of hanging around at the cape, and went to
look for good farming country.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 10:54:25 GMT, Pamela
<pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?

To some people, yes. To most people, no.

>I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?

Yes.

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 09:50:43 +1100
Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

[]

>
> The Spice Islands (now part of Indonesia) were probably the main
> business of the Dutch East India Company, because spices commanded such
> a high price in Europe.
>
> Indirectly, this led to the white settlement of South Africa, because
> the traders needed a halfway point for re-provisioning. The voortrekkers
> were the ones who got sick of hanging around at the cape, and went to
> look for good farming country.

I was startled to see that this message *wasn't* from JJ!

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[J. J. Lodder]

Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 23/03/22 22:07, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and
> >> "herbs"?
> >
> > In my collection of texts I find,
> >
> > |imported spices and local herbs
> >
> > , which might hint to "spices" being imported and herbs being local.
> >
> > The Web explains that herbs, such as thyme, basil, or parsley,
> > mainly grow in a moderate climate and are from small, green,
> > herbaceous plants; spices, like cloves, coriander, and pepper, grow
> > in a (sub) tropical climate and are from flower buds, stamens, seeds,
> > fruits, bark and roots.
>
> The Spice Islands (now part of Indonesia) were probably the main
> business of the Dutch East India Company, because spices commanded such
> a high price in Europe.
>
> Indirectly, this led to the white settlement of South Africa, because
> the traders needed a halfway point for re-provisioning.

It was convenient, but not really necessary.
The East India Company did without for the first fourty years.

> The voortrekkers were the ones who got sick of hanging around at the cape,
> and went to look for good farming country.

Not really. They got sick of being bossed around
by the Brits who had taken over their country/settlement.
In vain, as we know,

Jan

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-03-23, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:30:07 AM UTC-6, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2022-03-23, Pamela wrote:
>>
>> > Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
>> >
>> > I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?
>> Semi-officially (i.e., in cookbooks) the distinction is that herbs are
>> leaves, whereas spices are seeds & bark (cinammon is the only bark I
>> can think of offhand).
>
> I think it's that herbs are leaves and spices are everything else, including
> fruits (pepper, chile, and many others), fruit parts (mace), and roots (ginger).

Right, I forgot about the dried fruits & roots.

>> Saffron is made from specific parts of a crocus flower & I think it's
>> usually a "spice".
>
> The stigmas (not stigmata), and I agree.
>


--

A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not
preserved, except in memory. LLAP. ---Leonard Nimoy

[Quinn C]

* Kerr-Mudd, John:

A contribution from New Holland, for once.

--
If this guy wants to fight with weapons, I've got it covered
from A to Z. From axe to... zee other axe.
-- Buffy s05e03

[Quinn C]

* Adam Funk:

> On 2022-03-23, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:30:07 AM UTC-6, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> On 2022-03-23, Pamela wrote:
>>>
>>> > Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
>>> >
>>> > I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?
>>> Semi-officially (i.e., in cookbooks) the distinction is that herbs are
>>> leaves, whereas spices are seeds & bark (cinammon is the only bark I
>>> can think of offhand).
>>
>> I think it's that herbs are leaves and spices are everything else, including
>> fruits (pepper, chile, and many others), fruit parts (mace), and roots (ginger).
>
> Right, I forgot about the dried fruits & roots.

I'm hesitant to classify ginger - or garlic - as a spice.

Maybe only in dried form?

--
We say, 'If any lady or gentleman shall buy this article _____ shall
have it for five dollars.' The blank may be filled with he, she, it,
or they; or in any other manner; and yet the form of the expression
will be too vulgar to be uttered. -- Wkly Jrnl of Commerce (1839)

[J. J. Lodder]

Why? It isn't like anything I tend to write,

Jan

[Adam Funk]

On 2022-03-24, Quinn C wrote:

> * Adam Funk:
>
>> On 2022-03-23, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:30:07 AM UTC-6, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>> On 2022-03-23, Pamela wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
>>>> >
>>>> > I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?
>>>> Semi-officially (i.e., in cookbooks) the distinction is that herbs are
>>>> leaves, whereas spices are seeds & bark (cinammon is the only bark I
>>>> can think of offhand).
>>>
>>> I think it's that herbs are leaves and spices are everything else, including
>>> fruits (pepper, chile, and many others), fruit parts (mace), and roots (ginger).
>>
>> Right, I forgot about the dried fruits & roots.
>
> I'm hesitant to classify ginger - or garlic - as a spice.
>
> Maybe only in dried form?

FWIW, dried ginger & turmeric (also a root) are always (?!) on the
"spices" shelves, whereas not-dried ginger is in the produce section.


--
I am at the moment writing a lengthy indictment against our
century. When my brain begins to reel from my literary labors, I make
an occasional cheese dip. ---Ignatius J Reilly

[bruce bowser]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 10:11:27 PM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 10:54:25 GMT, Pamela
> <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
>
> To some people, yes. To most people, no.

And a few people might even just say: "Shut up and try the shit on your food, OK?"

[Pamela]

Perhaps where you live, food won't get eaten without that sort of
exhortation! Seems strange.

[Quinn C]

* Adam Funk:

> On 2022-03-24, Quinn C wrote:
>
>> * Adam Funk:
>>
>>> On 2022-03-23, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:30:07 AM UTC-6, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-03-23, Pamela wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?
>>>>> Semi-officially (i.e., in cookbooks) the distinction is that herbs are
>>>>> leaves, whereas spices are seeds & bark (cinammon is the only bark I
>>>>> can think of offhand).
>>>>
>>>> I think it's that herbs are leaves and spices are everything else, including
>>>> fruits (pepper, chile, and many others), fruit parts (mace), and roots (ginger).
>>>
>>> Right, I forgot about the dried fruits & roots.
>>
>> I'm hesitant to classify ginger - or garlic - as a spice.
>>
>> Maybe only in dried form?
>
> FWIW, dried ginger & turmeric (also a root) are always (?!) on the
> "spices" shelves, whereas not-dried ginger is in the produce section.

Right. I guess the difference is that in the recipes I use, turmeric
usually appears as so-and-so many teaspoons, ginger as so-and-so many
cm, i.e. for turmeric, the dried and powdered version is the default,
whereas for ginger and garlic, fresh is the default for me (although
I've bought them powdered, too.)

--
Learning the rules that govern intelligible speech is an
inculcation into normalized language, where the price of not
conforming is the loss of intelligibility itself.
-- Judith Butler

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 1:10:12 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Adam Funk:
> > On 2022-03-24, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Adam Funk:
> >>> On 2022-03-23, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:30:07 AM UTC-6, Adam Funk wrote:
> >>>>> On 2022-03-23, Pamela wrote:

> >>>>> > Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
> >>>>> > I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?
> >>>>> Semi-officially (i.e., in cookbooks) the distinction is that herbs are
> >>>>> leaves, whereas spices are seeds & bark (cinammon is the only bark I
> >>>>> can think of offhand).
> >>>> I think it's that herbs are leaves and spices are everything else, including
> >>>> fruits (pepper, chile, and many others), fruit parts (mace), and roots (ginger).
> >>> Right, I forgot about the dried fruits & roots.
> >> I'm hesitant to classify ginger - or garlic - as a spice.
> >> Maybe only in dried form?
> > FWIW, dried ginger & turmeric (also a root) are always (?!) on the
> > "spices" shelves, whereas not-dried ginger is in the produce section.
>
> Right. I guess the difference is that in the recipes I use, turmeric
> usually appears as so-and-so many teaspoons, ginger as so-and-so many
> cm, i.e. for turmeric, the dried and powdered version is the default,
> whereas for ginger and garlic, fresh is the default for me (although
> I've bought them powdered, too.)

Your "ginger" is our "ginger root."

You can't put ginger root in gingerbread.

Garlic is measured in "cloves." Occasionally an entire "head" of
garlic is called for,

[Ken Blake]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 08:53:08 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Adam Funk:
>
>> On 2022-03-23, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:30:07 AM UTC-6, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>> On 2022-03-23, Pamela wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
>>>> >
>>>> > I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?
>>>> Semi-officially (i.e., in cookbooks) the distinction is that herbs are
>>>> leaves, whereas spices are seeds & bark (cinammon is the only bark I
>>>> can think of offhand).
>>>
>>> I think it's that herbs are leaves and spices are everything else, including
>>> fruits (pepper, chile, and many others), fruit parts (mace), and roots (ginger).
>>
>> Right, I forgot about the dried fruits & roots.
>
>I'm hesitant to classify ginger - or garlic - as a spice.

I also wouldn't call either one a spice.

[Ken Blake]

For me I never use powdered ginger. As far as I'm concerned, it tastes
nothing like fresh ginger.

I occasionally use powdered garlic in some recipes, but it's very rare

[Sam Plusnet]

But when JJ _did_ pop up in this thread, it was the original - accept no
substitutes - guaranteed gen-u-wine article.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 11:10:12 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> * Adam Funk:
> > On 2022-03-24, Quinn C wrote:
> >
> >> * Adam Funk:
> >>
> >>> On 2022-03-23, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 5:30:07 AM UTC-6, Adam Funk wrote:
> >>>>> On 2022-03-23, Pamela wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > I wonder if "spice" often get used in AmE as shorthand for both?
> >>>>> Semi-officially (i.e., in cookbooks) the distinction is that herbs are
> >>>>> leaves, whereas spices are seeds & bark (cinammon is the only bark I
> >>>>> can think of offhand).
> >>>>
> >>>> I think it's that herbs are leaves and spices are everything else, including
> >>>> fruits (pepper, chile, and many others), fruit parts (mace), and roots (ginger).
> >>>
> >>> Right, I forgot about the dried fruits & roots.
> >>
> >> I'm hesitant to classify ginger - or garlic - as a spice.
> >>
> >> Maybe only in dried form?
> >
> > FWIW, dried ginger & turmeric (also a root) are always (?!) on the
> > "spices" shelves, whereas not-dried ginger is in the produce section.

> Right. I guess the difference is that in the recipes I use, turmeric
> usually appears as so-and-so many teaspoons, ginger as so-and-so many
> cm, i.e. for turmeric, the dried and powdered version is the default,
> whereas for ginger and garlic, fresh is the default for me (although
> I've bought them powdered, too.)

But if you put too much ginger root or not enough in something, it
will be too spicy or not spicy enough. And if a book covers the
history of the spice trade or the use of spices in cooking, it will
include ginger.

--
Jerry Friedman

[bruce bowser]

Really? Let me guess - rather than saying grace?

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

In that case, your "ginger" is my "ground ginger". At least that's what
is says on the package in my kitchen.

> You can't put ginger root in gingerbread.

I actually wondered about the name "gingerbread" until I learned that
cardamom is in the ginger family. German-style gingerbread (Lebkuchen)
typically uses cardamom, but not standard ginger.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Peter T. Daniels]

_Every_ powdered spice says "ground" on the bottle.

> > You can't put ginger root in gingerbread.
>
> I actually wondered about the name "gingerbread" until I learned that
> cardamom is in the ginger family. German-style gingerbread (Lebkuchen)
> typically uses cardamom, but not standard ginger.

Then it's not gingerbread innit. Can you even build a house with it?

No one ever suggested to me that Lebkuchen is gingerbread. It's
nothing like it.

[Sam Plusnet]

Ginger was one of the main commodities of the spice trade in historical
times - but that doesn't influence your use of it today.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 4:14:01 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:

...

> > You can't put ginger root in gingerbread.

> I actually wondered about the name "gingerbread" until I learned that
> cardamom is in the ginger family. German-style gingerbread (Lebkuchen)
> typically uses cardamom, but not standard ginger.

People on line refer to Lebkuchen as German gingerbread and to
Lebkuchen spice as German gingerbread spice, but I can't help feeling
that ginger is a sine qua non of gingerbread. There seem to be many
other differences--I don't remember ever having gingerbread with nuts or
candied fruit, though a few raisins might be all right. Maybe they're
cultural equivalents, eaten at Christmas?

A glance at the German Wikipedia suggests that a well-known witch lived
in a crispy house made of bread, cake, and sugar, not a gingerbread
house or Lebkuchen house.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Quinn C]

But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say "ginger root".
Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your usage is common.

>>> You can't put ginger root in gingerbread.
>>
>> I actually wondered about the name "gingerbread" until I learned that
>> cardamom is in the ginger family. German-style gingerbread (Lebkuchen)
>> typically uses cardamom, but not standard ginger.
>
> Then it's not gingerbread innit.

Another name used for similar baked goods is Pfefferkuchen; that doesn't
necessarily mean that they contain pepper. "Pepper" can simply stand for
spiciness.

And ginger can be used in Lebkuchen. It would be very fussy to
distinguish between Lebkuchen with ginger and those without. Do we need
to distinguish those with or without cloves, nutmeg or mace as well?

> Can you even build a house with it?

Of course.

> No one ever suggested to me that Lebkuchen is gingerbread. It's
> nothing like it.

That's a quite unique opinion. I've called Lebkuchen gingerbread and
gingerbread Lebkuchen for many years, so have friends of mine, and
nobody seems confused. It seems rather obvious.

But maybe your idea of gingerbread is very specific and doesn't even
encompass everything that goes under that name in English (some of which
can't be used for building houses.)

--
Veronica: You named your puppy "The Missus"?
Cliff: Says the owner of a dog named "Pony".
-- Veronica Mars, S04E05

[Pamela]

"Goodness gracious me" was a popular UK tv sitcom where they ate a lot of
spices.

[Ken Blake]

Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it for
sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just "ginger."

[Ken Blake]

The only time I've ever said grace was to a woman I knew whose name
was "Grace."

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-03-25 10:31, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:51:22 -0400, Quinn C

>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say "ginger root".
>> Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your usage is common.
>
>
> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it for
> sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just "ginger."
>

The same for 'Beet' vs. 'Beetroot'.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Patience is a virtue, Virtue is a grace and Grace is a little girl who
doesn't wash her face


--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[Ken Blake]

No, I don't think so. Some BrE should correct me if I'm wrong, but I
think it's called "beet" in AmE and "beetroot" in BrE.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes, at least as far as British English goes.

[charles]

In article <ja6at8...@mid.individual.net>,

my grand daughter certainly washes hers.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Adam Funk]

"Say goodnight, Gracie."


--
The kid's a hot prospect. He's got a good head for merchandising, an
agent who can take you downtown and one of the best urine samples I've
seen in a long time. (Dead Kennedys t-shirt)

[Sam Plusnet]

On 25-Mar-22 16:31, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:51:22 -0400, Quinn C

>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say "ginger root".
>> Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your usage is common.
>
>
> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it for
> sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just "ginger."

I was going to interject with:
"But what about 'stem ginger'?
However on checking, I find that 'stem ginger' is really root ginger
that's been peeled and cooked in syrup.

It's a swizz.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 19:03:05 +0000, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:

>On 25-Mar-22 16:31, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:51:22 -0400, Quinn C
>
>>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say "ginger root".
>>> Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your usage is common.
>>
>>
>> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it for
>> sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just "ginger."
>
>I was going to interject with:
>"But what about 'stem ginger'?

I've never heard of it.

>However on checking, I find that 'stem ginger' is really root ginger
>that's been peeled and cooked in syrup.
>
>It's a swizz.

--

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 17:30:30 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>On 2022-03-25, Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 11:37:03 GMT, Pamela
>><pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 20:00 24 Mar 2022, bruce bowser said:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 1:06:16 PM UTC-4, Pamela wrote:
>>>>> On 16:44 24 Mar 2022, bruce bowser said:
>>>>> > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 10:11:27 PM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> >> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 10:54:25 GMT, Pamela
>>>>> >> <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and
>>>>> >> > "herbs"?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> To some people, yes. To most people, no.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > And a few people might even just say: "Shut up and try the shit on
>>>>> > your food, OK?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps where you live, food won't get eaten without that sort of
>>>>> exhortation! Seems strange.
>>>>
>>>> Really? Let me guess - rather than saying grace?
>>>
>>>"Goodness gracious me" was a popular UK tv sitcom where they ate a lot of
>>>spices.
>>
>>
>> The only time I've ever said grace was to a woman I knew whose name
>> was "Grace."
>
>"Say goodnight, Gracie."

Nope, she wasn't the woman I knew.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:34:13 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 19:03:05 +0000, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>On 25-Mar-22 16:31, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:51:22 -0400, Quinn C
>>
>>>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say "ginger root".
>>>> Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your usage is common.
>>>
>>>
>>> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it for
>>> sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just "ginger."
>>
>>I was going to interject with:
>>"But what about 'stem ginger'?
>
>
>I've never heard of it.

There's an expression that sometimes appears as "He's got his ginger
up" that means the person is excited. It is alleged to come from the
practice of inserting ginger in a horse's rectum to make the horse
lively and hold its tail up.

It may be connected to "gin up".

Like many alleged sources of words or terms, there are other suggested
sources.



--

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

[lar3ryca]

My point exactly. When Quinn says 'here', it is the same as my 'here',
which is Canadian. When we see ginger for sale in Canada, it is never
labelled 'ginger root'. Beets are never called 'beetroot' here, or at
least not that I have ever heard.

CdnE <> BrE <> AmE.

[bruce bowser]

And mace can also wash a face.

[Pamela]

Can a face sponge be used as a spice?

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 22:02:56 GMT, Pamela

There are terms that don't easily translate from UK to US speak.

On our first trip to the UK we were leaving a B&B in the morning when
the lady who ran it came out and told us we'd left a "sponge bag" in
the room.

To me, it was my "Dopp kit" and to my wife it's my "toiletry bag".

(We've discussed "Dopp kit" here before. It's the brand name of what
was the most popular style of case in which men pack their razor,
shaving soap, etc when traveling.)

"Sponge bag", though? Who has one that contains sponges?

I assume that "face sponge" above is what I would call a "face cloth"
or "wash rag". It's a small terrycloth square used to wash one's
face. Do some actually use a sponge?



--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

[Sam Plusnet]

On 25-Mar-22 19:34, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 19:03:05 +0000, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 25-Mar-22 16:31, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:51:22 -0400, Quinn C
>>
>>>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say "ginger root".
>>>> Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your usage is common.
>>>
>>>
>>> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it for
>>> sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just "ginger."
>>
>> I was going to interject with:
>> "But what about 'stem ginger'?
>
>
> I've never heard of it.

We used to see it in decorative china jars, somewhat like this:

<https://www.amazon.co.uk/Opies-Crystalised-Ginger-Chinese-2x200g/dp/B00FEWRTCQ>

But now it seems to come in utilitarian glass jars.

Some of the earlier ginger jars are collectors items.

https://www.homedit.com/ginger-jars/


--
Sam Plusnet

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 9:51:29 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 6:14:01 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Peter T. Daniels:
> >>> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 1:10:12 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >>>> * Adam Funk:

> >>>>> FWIW, dried ginger & turmeric (also a root) are always (?!) on the
> >>>>> "spices" shelves, whereas not-dried ginger is in the produce section.
> >>>> Right. I guess the difference is that in the recipes I use, turmeric
> >>>> usually appears as so-and-so many teaspoons, ginger as so-and-so many
> >>>> cm, i.e. for turmeric, the dried and powdered version is the default,
> >>>> whereas for ginger and garlic, fresh is the default for me (although
> >>>> I've bought them powdered, too.)
> >>> Your "ginger" is our "ginger root."
> >> In that case, your "ginger" is my "ground ginger". At least that's what
> >> is says on the package in my kitchen.
> > _Every_ powdered spice says "ground" on the bottle.
>
> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say "ginger root".

I didn't say anything different.

> Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your usage is common.

When you're reading a recipe, it makes a rather big difference.

For many, many years, I never tried making Susan Stamberg's
horseradish relish, because every year when she gave the recipe
she never said whether it used horseradish root or "prepared"
horseradish.

[Ken Blake]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 22:02:56 GMT, Pamela

I don't know, but I know a mace can smash a face.

[Peter Moylan]

Both of which are shorthand for the troot of a bee.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Janet]

In article <4nfs3hdqhl090559l...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

> There are terms that don't easily translate from UK to US speak.
>
> On our first trip to the UK we were leaving a B&B in the morning when
> the lady who ran it came out and told us we'd left a "sponge bag" in
> the room.
>
> To me, it was my "Dopp kit" and to my wife it's my "toiletry bag".
>
> (We've discussed "Dopp kit" here before. It's the brand name of what
> was the most popular style of case in which men pack their razor,
> shaving soap, etc when traveling.)
>
> "Sponge bag", though? Who has one that contains sponges?

Traditionally, yes.

>
> I assume that "face sponge" above is what I would call a "face cloth"
> or "wash rag". It's a small terrycloth square used to wash one's
> face.

In Br.E a facecloth is a small square of terry towelling.

> Do some actually use a sponge?

Yes, if they can afford one. Sponges harvested from the sea are
expensive nowadays. Softer and more luxurious than a facecloth.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unbleached-Honeycomb-Natural-Sponge-
Hypoallergenic/dp/B00VD954Z8?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1&psc=1



Janet





>

[Janet]

In article <mjtr3hhu7bc8na5c8...@4ax.com>,
K...@invalid.news.com says...

In Br. E we distinguish between beetroot, (a tasty purple root used in
salad, pickle, soup and borscht), and sugarbeet, not-purple root, grown
to produce sugar in Europe.

https://www.britannica.com/plant/sugar-beet

Janet

[CDB]

On 3/25/2022 6:24 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> bruce bowser said:
>>> charles wrote:
>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

[But we hae meat, and we can eat, and sae the Laird be thankit]

>>>>> Patience is a virtue, Virtue is a grace and Grace is a little
>>>>> girl who doesn't wash her face
>>>> my grand daughter certainly washes hers.

=

>>> And mace can also wash a face.

>> Can a face sponge be used as a spice?

> There are terms that don't easily translate from UK to US speak.

> On our first trip to the UK we were leaving a B&B in the morning
> when the lady who ran it came out and told us we'd left a "sponge
> bag" in the room.

> To me, it was my "Dopp kit" and to my wife it's my "toiletry bag".

> (We've discussed "Dopp kit" here before. It's the brand name of
> what was the most popular style of case in which men pack their
> razor, shaving soap, etc when traveling.)

> "Sponge bag", though? Who has one that contains sponges?

> I assume that "face sponge" above is what I would call a "face
> cloth" or "wash rag". It's a small terrycloth square used to wash
> one's face. Do some actually use a sponge?

Resorting to fiction once again: I remember an episode of the Jeremy
Brett series of Sherlock Holmes stories in which Holmes removed a
character's makeup with a bucket of soapy water and a large sponge.
Maybe the custom is old-fashioned but the expression persists.

Yes, here it is: "The Man with the Twisted Lip".

https://youtu.be/AFYSc1ziA2A?t=2401

If they broadcast that series agin, I would gladly watch it.

[Janet]

In article <t1mg0d$cqf$4...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...

If Australian cattle are fed such a miniscule diet as the troot of
bees, they must be puny beests indeed.

Janet

[CDB]

On 3/25/2022 4:06 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:

>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> Quinn C

>>>>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say
>>>>> "ginger root". Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your
>>>>> usage is common.

>>>> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it
>>>> for sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just
>>>> "ginger."

>>> I was going to interject with: "But what about 'stem ginger'?

>> I've never heard of it.

> There's an expression that sometimes appears as "He's got his ginger
> up" that means the person is excited. It is alleged to come from
> the practice of inserting ginger in a horse's rectum to make the
> horse lively and hold its tail up.

> It may be connected to "gin up".

> Like many alleged sources of words or terms, there are other
> suggested sources.

I think that that "ginger" is more likely to be red hair, as in "he's
got his Irish up".

Horse abuse is more likely to be a verb: "to ginger him up".

> Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And we do our beast.

[Janet]

In article <r86s3htr9j25jct10...@4ax.com>,
K...@invalid.news.com says...

>
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 19:03:05 +0000, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >On 25-Mar-22 16:31, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:51:22 -0400, Quinn C
> >
> >>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say "ginger root".
> >>> Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your usage is common.

In UK it's ginger root. I always have some ginger root in stock (it
freezes we;; and you can grate the frozen lump for use in Asian
recipes.)

Dried ground ginger is only suitable for use in baking.

> >>
> >>
> >> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it for
> >> sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just "ginger."
> >
> >I was going to interject with:
> >"But what about 'stem ginger'?
>
>
> I've never heard of it.

All the more for me, and you have missed one of life's sneaky treats.

>
>
> >However on checking, I find that 'stem ginger' is really root ginger
> >that's been peeled and cooked in syrup.
> >
> >It's a swizz.

If you're making gingerbread , or apple pie, or anything with pears,
I recommend adding some finely chopped stem ginger.

Janet

[Pamela]

Face sponges are smaller than those for the body. They are usually gentler
although some are mildly exfoliating. They must be available in the U.S.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/NATUCE/dp/B085SVKFFG/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Buf-Puf/dp/B087H8WM2B/

On a slight tangent, body exfoliating loofahs can be eaten when fresh as
they are actually gourds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luffa

[Pamela]

Also hallucinogenic if too much is eaten.

In some regions of Italy, as you may know from your time there, nutmeg is
added to tomato sauces and makes a distinctive contribution to the taste.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:40:54 AM UTC-4, Janet wrote:

> In Br. E we distinguish between beetroot, (a tasty purple root used in
> salad, pickle, soup and borscht), and sugarbeet, not-purple root, grown
> to produce sugar in Europe.

We have "beets" and "sugar beets" respectively. (Note the article
title in your link.) The root is also what is used in sugar beets.
>
> https://www.britannica.com/plant/sugar-beet

[CDB]

On 3/25/2022 1:02 PM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> Ken Blake said:

>> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> bruce bowser said:

>>>> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 1:06:16 PM UTC-4, Pamela wrote:
>>>>> On 16:44 24 Mar 2022, bruce bowser said:>>> > On Wednesday,
>>>>> March 23, 2022 at 10:11:27 PM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:>>> >>
>>>>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 10:54:25 GMT, Pamela>>> >>
>>>>> <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:>>> >> >>>> >> > Does
>>>>> everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and>>>
>>>>> >> > "herbs"?>>> >>>>> >> To some people, yes. To most
>>>>> people, no.>>> >>>> > And a few people might even just say:
>>>>> "Shut up and try the shit on>>> > your food, OK?"

>>>>> Perhaps where you live, food won't get eaten without that
>>>>> sort of>>> exhortation! Seems strange.

>>>> Really? Let me guess - rather than saying grace?

>>> "Goodness gracious me" was a popular UK tv sitcom where they ate
>>> a lot of>spices.

>> The only time I've ever said grace was to a woman I knew whose
>> name was "Grace."

> Patience is a virtue, Virtue is a grace and Grace is a little girl
> who doesn't wash her face

The Lard is with her.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:41:27 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:

> Resorting to fiction once again: I remember an episode of the Jeremy
> Brett series of Sherlock Holmes stories in which Holmes removed a
> character's makeup with a bucket of soapy water and a large sponge.
> Maybe the custom is old-fashioned but the expression persists.

After I read a long book about the century of post-Doyle Holmes,
I was interested in seeing the Brett versions -- the first attempt to
film the entire canon as a set (though there were two Watsons).
Thirteen (the NY PBS station) showed them for about a season;
they differed strikingly from the source material, including changing
almost all the titles.

The CUNY station has a Thursday night hour called simply "Sherlock
Holmes," which they fill with episodes from various series (best is
the early 50s one made in Paris with Ronald Howard, who is presumably
why Ron(nie) Howard had to be called that). The last few weeks they
showed some of the Bretts, and one could see why the series didn't
succeed on US TV: they are way more sadistic than the original stories
-- and it becomes apparent that over the years Brett declined physically,
and his identification with the character literally drove him mad and he
died at an early age.

[Ken Blake]

Or, as Zarela the well-known Mexican cook and cookbook author, likes
to say, "Praise the Lard."

[bruce bowser]

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:25:48 AM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:41:27 AM UTC-4, CDB wrote:
>
> > Resorting to fiction once again: I remember an episode of the Jeremy
> > Brett series of Sherlock Holmes stories in which Holmes removed a
> > character's makeup with a bucket of soapy water and a large sponge.
> > Maybe the custom is old-fashioned but the expression persists.
> After I read a long book about the century of post-Doyle Holmes,
> I was interested in seeing the Brett versions -- the first attempt to
> film the entire canon as a set (though there were two Watsons).
> Thirteen (the NY PBS station) showed them for about a season;
> they differed strikingly from the source material, including changing
> almost all the titles.
>
> The CUNY station has a Thursday night hour called simply "Sherlock
> Holmes," which they fill with episodes from various series (best is
> the early 50s one made in Paris with Ronald Howard, who is presumably
> why Ron(nie) Howard had to be called that). The last few weeks they
> showed some of the Bretts, and one could see why the series didn't
> succeed on US TV: they are way more sadistic than the original stories
> -- and it becomes apparent that over the years Brett declined physically,
> and his identification with the character literally drove him mad and he
> died at an early age.

He guest starred in a few other series before the 1980s, including the early 70s international thriller series "The Protectors" 1973 episode titled "The Last Frontier" (sheesh, talk about sinister ! !)

[Quinn C]

* lar3ryca:

> On 2022-03-25 11:07, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 10:57:37 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-03-25 10:31, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:51:22 -0400, Quinn C
>>>>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say "ginger root".
>>>>> Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your usage is common.
>
>>>> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it for
>>>> sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just "ginger.">>>
>>>
>>> The same for 'Beet' vs. 'Beetroot'.
>
>> No, I don't think so. Some BrE should correct me if I'm wrong, but I
>> think it's called "beet" in AmE and "beetroot" in BrE.
>
> My point exactly. When Quinn says 'here', it is the same as my 'here',
> which is Canadian.

Sometimes it's different, because my "here" is Quebec. The big sign in
the store will say "gingembre", maybe with smaller "ginger" below, maybe
not. But the English description on prepackaged items will be the same.

--
Some of the most horrific things ever done to humans
were done by the politest, best-dressed, most well-spoken
people from the very best homes and neighborhoods.
-- Jerry Springer

[Quinn C]

* Janet:

> In article <r86s3htr9j25jct10...@4ax.com>,
> K...@invalid.news.com says...
>>
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 19:03:05 +0000, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 25-Mar-22 16:31, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:51:22 -0400, Quinn C
>>>
>>>>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say "ginger root".
>>>>> Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your usage is common.
>
> In UK it's ginger root. I always have some ginger root in stock (it
> freezes we;; and you can grate the frozen lump for use in Asian
> recipes.)
>
> Dried ground ginger is only suitable for use in baking.
>>>>
>>>> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it for
>>>> sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just "ginger."
>>>
>>>I was going to interject with:
>>>"But what about 'stem ginger'?
>>
>> I've never heard of it.
>
> All the more for me, and you have missed one of life's sneaky treats.

I have a mundane plastic container here marked CRYSTALLISZED GINGER
[sic], but the name "stem ginger", or that it could come in liquid, was
unknown to me.

I also have a jar of Robertson's ginger marmelade a lot of the time,
which disproves that marmelade has to be made of citrus fruits.

>>>However on checking, I find that 'stem ginger' is really root ginger
>>>that's been peeled and cooked in syrup.
>>>
>>>It's a swizz.
>
> If you're making gingerbread , or apple pie, or anything with pears,
> I recommend adding some finely chopped stem ginger.

I'll keep that in mind.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 23 Mar 2022 13:11:25 -0700 (PDT), bruce bowser
<bruce2...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 4:06:14 PM UTC-4, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 23-Mar-22 11:07, Stefan Ram wrote:

>> > Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> Does everyday American English distinguish between "spices" and "herbs"?
>> >

>> > In my collection of texts I find,
>> >
>> > |imported spices and local herbs
>> >
>> > , which might hint to "spices" being imported and herbs being local.
>> >
>> > The Web explains that herbs, such as thyme, basil, or
>> > parsley, mainly grow in a moderate climate and are from
>> > small, green, herbaceous plants; spices, like cloves,
>> > coriander, and pepper, grow in a (sub) tropical climate and
>> > are from flower buds, stamens, seeds, fruits, bark and roots.
>>
>> In my shorthand, herbs are things you may well grow in your own garden.
>> Spices are imported from exotic climes, and are usually sold in small
>> quantities.
>
I agree.

See this article on the Spice Trade:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spice_trade


>"Herbs are typically thought of as non-woody plants"
> -- USDA Forest Service
>"Spices, on the other hand, come from the non-leafy parts, including roots, bark, berries, flowers, seeds and so on."
> -- TreeHugger.com

I don't challenge those definitions.

However, historically from a British/West-European perspective herbs
were local and spices were foreign.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 12:59:34 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Janet:

> > If you're making gingerbread , or apple pie, or anything with pears,
> > I recommend adding some finely chopped stem ginger.
>
> I'll keep that in mind.

Remember, one of the main lessons of *The Great British
Baking Show* is that they like their stuff sickly-sweet. This
seems to fit.

[Sam Plusnet]

To thine own self beetroot - as Polonious was wont to say.

(Some poor hack used an early version of google translate, and turned it
into a word salad.)




--
Sam Plusnet

[bil...@shaw.ca]

I add freshly grated nutmeg to a lot of dishes. It comes with being Dutch.
When you've discovered the Spice Islands, you get nutmeg.

Aside: I have noticed that commentators for English and European football
(NA soccer) use "nutmeg" to describe a pass between an opponent's legs.
I've wondered, but haven't actually dared to ask.

bill

[Paul Wolff]

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022, at 12:45:20, bil...@shaw.ca posted:

You're right. But I don't know why nutmeg rather than, say, nutcracker,
which seems even better adapted to the circumstances.
--
Paul

[bruce bowser]

Antonio Pigafetta 1521 is niet Nederlands.

[Lewis]

In message <MPG.3ca918dc7...@news.individual.net> Janet <nob...@hame.cock> wrote:
> In article <4nfs3hdqhl090559l...@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
> @gmail.com says...
>> There are terms that don't easily translate from UK to US speak.
>>
>> On our first trip to the UK we were leaving a B&B in the morning when
>> the lady who ran it came out and told us we'd left a "sponge bag" in
>> the room.
>>
>> To me, it was my "Dopp kit" and to my wife it's my "toiletry bag".
>>
>> (We've discussed "Dopp kit" here before. It's the brand name of what
>> was the most popular style of case in which men pack their razor,
>> shaving soap, etc when traveling.)

I wonder if there is a regional aspect to the term; while my father had
a doppkit, I never heard him use that term. I learned it from a
classmate late in high school.

>> "Sponge bag", though? Who has one that contains sponges?

> Traditionally, yes.

I am not sure I've seen a sponge bag without at least one sponge in it,
though usually it is a small one, like a face sponge. However, it's not
a term widely used around here, toilet kit or toilet bag. However, if
you wanted to be sure you were talking about a waterproof one, I suspect
sponge bag would be the term to use.

>> I assume that "face sponge" above is what I would call a "face cloth"
>> or "wash rag". It's a small terrycloth square used to wash one's
>> face.
>
> In Br.E a facecloth is a small square of terry towelling.

A face sponge is not a cloth, it is a sponge (natural or not) that is
small and has quite small pores (is that what you call the holes in a
sponge). They are used often for applying or removing makeup, face
cream, lotion, etc.

>> Do some actually use a sponge?

> Yes, if they can afford one. Sponges harvested from the sea are
> expensive nowadays. Softer and more luxurious than a facecloth.

> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unbleached-Honeycomb-Natural-Sponge-Hypoallergenic/dp/B00VD954Z8?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1&psc=1

Face sponges:
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cellulose-Facial-Sponges-Natural-Cleansing/dp/B083S6Q3KV/>

--
Can I borrow your underpants for 10 minutes?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

https://www.lexico.com/definition/nutmeg

noun,3
Soccer
informal An instance of playing the ball through an opponent's legs.

Origin
Extended use of obsolete nutmegs ‘testicles’.

verb
Play the ball through the legs of (an opponent)

The OED is uncertain about the etymology of this sense:

Sense A. 4 [soccer] is often said to be a survival in a transferred
use of sense A. 3 [testicles], but the lack of 20th-cent. evidence
of the latter suggests that there may be some other origin. It has
also often been suggested that this sense arose from rhyming slang
for leg, but there is no independent evidence to support this
assumption.

[Quinn C]

* Quinn C:

> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> No one ever suggested to me that Lebkuchen is gingerbread. It's
>> nothing like it.
>
> That's a quite unique opinion. I've called Lebkuchen gingerbread and
> gingerbread Lebkuchen for many years, so have friends of mine, and
> nobody seems confused. It seems rather obvious.

I happened to open the book The Art of the Dessert today (Sandy Lesberg
1977; someone had been throwing it out in this building, and I picked it
up.) In the index, I noticed this entry:

Gingerbread
Cookies, see Lebkuchen, 35
Plantain, 47

[Quinn C]

* bil...@shaw.ca:

For some reason, I intuitively knew the answer to the recent Jeopardy
clue about the spice depicted on the flag of Grenada. It wasn't solid
knowledge on my part, but felt like nutmeg was the obvious choice.

--
Bring home one dismembered body part, once, mind you, once,
and people get twitchy about checking your luggage ever after.
-- Vicereine Cordelia
in L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 7:22:06 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Quinn C:
> > * Peter T. Daniels:

> >> No one ever suggested to me that Lebkuchen is gingerbread. It's
> >> nothing like it.
> > That's a quite unique opinion. I've called Lebkuchen gingerbread and
> > gingerbread Lebkuchen for many years, so have friends of mine, and
> > nobody seems confused. It seems rather obvious.
>
> I happened to open the book The Art of the Dessert today (Sandy Lesberg
> 1977; someone had been throwing it out in this building, and I picked it
> up.) In the index, I noticed this entry:
>
> Gingerbread
> Cookies, see Lebkuchen, 35
> Plantain, 47

Don't know what a gingerbread cookie might be; gingersnaps
are excellent in very small quantities.

Nor what plantains might have to do with it.

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-03-26 06:47, CDB wrote:
> On 3/25/2022 4:06 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> Quinn C
>
>>>>>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say
>>>>>> "ginger root". Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your
>>>>>> usage is common.
>
>>>>> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it
>>>>> for sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just
>>>>> "ginger."
>
>>>> I was going to interject with: "But what about 'stem ginger'?
>
>>> I've never heard of it.
>
>> There's an expression that sometimes appears as "He's got his ginger
>> up" that means the person is excited.  It is alleged to come from
>> the practice of inserting ginger in a horse's rectum to make the
>> horse lively and hold its tail up.
>
>> It may be connected to "gin up".
>
>> Like many alleged sources of words or terms, there are other
>> suggested sources.
>
> I think that that "ginger" is more likely to be red hair, as in "he's
> got his Irish up".

I think the Harry Potter films are not very realistic. I mean, a ginger
kid with TWO friends? C'mon!

[lar3ryca]

Rosanne! Barr the door!

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

A gingerbread cookie is the hardish kind that you can make houses with.

The other recipe in the book is a soft, cake-like gingerbread with
plantain, supposedly a recipe from Liberia. I might call that kind of
thing "spice cake".

Both recipes use (powdered) ginger.

[Peter Moylan]

On 26/03/22 23:40, Janet wrote:
> In article <mjtr3hhu7bc8na5c8...@4ax.com>,
> K...@invalid.news.com says...

>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 10:57:37 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca>

>> wrote:
>>> On 2022-03-25 10:31, Ken Blake wrote:

>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:51:22 -0400, Quinn C

>>>>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say
>>>>> "ginger root". Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your
>>>>> usage is common.
>>>>
>>>> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it
>>>> for sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just
>>>> "ginger."
>>>

>>> The same for 'Beet' vs. 'Beetroot'.
>>

>> No, I don't think so. Some BrE should correct me if I'm wrong, but
>> I think it's called "beet" in AmE and "beetroot" in BrE.
>

> In Br. E we distinguish between beetroot, (a tasty purple root used
> in salad, pickle, soup and borscht), and sugarbeet, not-purple root,
> grown to produce sugar in Europe.
>

> https://www.britannica.com/plant/sugar-beet

In AusE "beet" usually means "silver beet", a leafy vegetable that looks
like spinach.

My current crop has just been wiped out by snails and grasshoppers.
Cabbage moths might also have been involved.

My wife uses a lot of ginger in cooking, but never the pre-powdered
stuff. It's much better to grate it on the spot.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[CDB]

On 3/26/2022 12:31 PM, bruce bowser wrote:

> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> CDB wrote:

>>> Resorting to fiction once again: I remember an episode of the
>>> Jeremy Brett series of Sherlock Holmes stories in which Holmes
>>> removed a character's makeup with a bucket of soapy water and a
>>> large sponge. Maybe the custom is old-fashioned but the
>>> expression persists.
>> After I read a long book about the century of post-Doyle Holmes, I
>> was interested in seeing the Brett versions -- the first attempt to
>> film the entire canon as a set (though there were two Watsons).
>> Thirteen (the NY PBS station) showed them for about a season; they
>> differed strikingly from the source material, including changing
>> almost all the titles.

>> The CUNY station has a Thursday night hour called simply "Sherlock
>> Holmes," which they fill with episodes from various series (best
>> is the early 50s one made in Paris with Ronald Howard, who is
>> presumably why Ron(nie) Howard had to be called that). The last
>> few weeks they showed some of the Bretts, and one could see why
>> the series didn't succeed on US TV: they are way more sadistic than
>> the original stories -- and it becomes apparent that over the
>> years Brett declined physically, and his identification with the
>> character literally drove him mad and he died at an early age.

For some reason, I have never read the originals. I liked the series
for the same reason I like many British productions, because it was very
well made.

I liked Brett in the role, and Hardwicke, the second Watson; and I
enjoyed Charles Gray's performance as Mycroft ("The Greek
Interpreter"!). Brett's performance during his obvious illness seemed
reasonable to me, considering the passsage of time for his character -
who, after all, lived a strenuous life.

> He guest starred in a few other series before the 1980s, including
> the early 70s international thriller series "The Protectors" 1973
> episode titled "The Last Frontier" (sheesh, talk about sinister ! !)

And, on the sunnier side, he was Freddy in the movie version of _My Fair
Lady_.

[CDB]

On 3/26/2022 3:45 PM, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> Pamela wrote:

[from grace to mace]

>> In some regions of Italy, as you may know from your time there,
>> nutmeg is added to tomato sauces and makes a distinctive
>> contribution to the taste.

> I add freshly grated nutmeg to a lot of dishes. It comes with being
> Dutch. When you've discovered the Spice Islands, you get nutmeg.

> Aside: I have noticed that commentators for English and European
> football (NA soccer) use "nutmeg" to describe a pass between an
> opponent's legs. I've wondered, but haven't actually dared to ask.

Maybe "meg" for "ball", as in "pill" for "baseball"? A meg used to be a
silver coin.

[CDB]

On 3/26/2022 7:57 PM, lar3ryca wrote:

She was a strange and annoying presence, but I haven't bothered to watch
the show since she was forced out.

[Janet]

In article <t1o94k$qom$3...@dont-email.me>, la...@invalid.ca says...

Cultural difference? Here in Scotland (location of Hogwarts school)
red hair is a source of pride, and relatively common.


Janet

[CDB]

On 3/26/2022 7:55 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
> CDB wrote:

I have never understood that prejudice, unless it is like Mony Python's
attempt to stir up a hatred of Belgies.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 7:55:04 PM UTC-4, lar3ryca wrote:

> I think the Harry Potter films are not very realistic. I mean, a ginger
> kid with TWO friends? C'mon!

Bigot.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:18:31 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 7:22:06 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >> * Quinn C:
> >>> * Peter T. Daniels:

> >>>> No one ever suggested to me that Lebkuchen is gingerbread. It's
> >>>> nothing like it.
> >>> That's a quite unique opinion. I've called Lebkuchen gingerbread and
> >>> gingerbread Lebkuchen for many years, so have friends of mine, and
> >>> nobody seems confused. It seems rather obvious.
> >> I happened to open the book The Art of the Dessert today (Sandy Lesberg
> >> 1977; someone had been throwing it out in this building, and I picked it
> >> up.) In the index, I noticed this entry:
> >> Gingerbread
> >> Cookies, see Lebkuchen, 35
> >> Plantain, 47
> > Don't know what a gingerbread cookie might be; gingersnaps
> > are excellent in very small quantities.
> > Nor what plantains might have to do with it.
>
> A gingerbread cookie is the hardish kind that you can make houses with.

That stretches the meaning of "cookie" beyond the snapping point.

> The other recipe in the book is a soft, cake-like gingerbread with
> plantain, supposedly a recipe from Liberia. I might call that kind of
> thing "spice cake".

Sounds right. Cream cheese icing.

> Both recipes use (powdered) ginger.

"Ground." Like it says on the bottle/can. (Does any brand of spice
still come in those little rectangular cans with two kinds of shaker
top, or a shaker top and a spooning top?)

[Richard Heathfield]

On 27/03/2022 2:17 pm, CDB wrote:
> On 3/26/2022 7:55 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
>> CDB wrote:
>>> I think that that "ginger" is more likely to be red hair, as in
>>> "he's got his Irish up".
>
>> I think the Harry Potter films are not very realistic. I mean, a
>> ginger kid with TWO friends? C'mon!
>
> I have never understood that prejudice, unless it is like Mony Python's
> attempt to stir up a hatred of Belgies.

It's racism, UK style.

"Britain has racism; it's just not very good at it. Y'all give it a
go... I mean, you know, like, ginger-haired people, that ain't even a
race." - Reginald D Hunter

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Tony Cooper]

I don't remember any Python sketches where Gingers were the foil, but
there probably were some. However, I do remember Catherine Tate's
sketches on this subject. Including this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_DVHUEjnuU

"Ginger Hair Safe House" was one of several she did.

--

[CDB]

On 3/27/2022 9:37 AM, Tony Cooper wrote:

I don't remember any either. What I was thinking of was a mock campaign
to stir up public hatred of Belgians, chosen (before British EU
membership) as the least offensive nation they could find.

I remember thinking that we had had a narrow escape.

[Tony Cooper]

Are you suggesting that he should be beaten like a red-headed
step-child?

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

[Madhu]

* Richard Heathfield <t1pomg$tj2$1 @dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Sun, 27 Mar 2022 14:26:39 +0100:

> On 27/03/2022 2:17 pm, CDB wrote:
>> On 3/26/2022 7:55 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
>>> CDB wrote:
>>>> I think that that "ginger" is more likely to be red hair, as in
>>>> "he's got his Irish up".
>>> I think the Harry Potter films are not very realistic. I mean, a
>>> ginger kid with TWO friends? C'mon!
>> I have never understood that prejudice, unless it is like Mony
>> Python's attempt to stir up a hatred of Belgies.
>
> It's racism, UK style.
>
> "Britain has racism; it's just not very good at it. Y'all give it a
> go... I mean, you know, like, ginger-haired people, that ain't even a
> race." - Reginald D Hunter

It's been over two years since i posted this here, so here goes:


"With my gold I purchased my palace in the midst of this city of
Misawan, entertained guests who asked nothing of my origin, bought
(after a careful survey of prices) the excellent post of Chief
Sweeper to his Majesty (which carried with it the conduct of The
Treasury) and paid for a few laws which happened to suit my
convenience, such as one to prevent street cries and another for the
strangling of the red-headed poor: it is a colour of hair I cannot
abide."

-- Hillaire Belloc. THE MERCY OF ALLAH, (CHAPTER XIII) 1922
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/47860

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 12:59:34 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Janet:
>
>>> If you're making gingerbread , or apple pie, or anything with pears,
>>> I recommend adding some finely chopped stem ginger.
>>
>> I'll keep that in mind.
>
> Remember, one of the main lessons of *The Great British
> Baking Show* is that they like their stuff sickly-sweet. This
> seems to fit.

One, I can't "remember" it, because I never "knew" it, and haven't seen
the show (not from principle - I got many recommendations in favor, it
just never rose quite high enough in my to-watch rankings.)

Two, I'm not sure how to interpret your statement when I already have a
similar impression of North American baked goods. So what are you
measuring that against? In every country, some people prefer their baked
goods very sweet and some don't; the proportions may differ.

Three, the crystallized ginger I buy, the dry sort, is sweet, but it
also is real ginger, i.e. it has bite.

[Quinn C]

* Peter Moylan:

> On 26/03/22 23:40, Janet wrote:
>> In article <mjtr3hhu7bc8na5c8...@4ax.com>,
>> K...@invalid.news.com says...
>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 10:57:37 -0600, lar3ryca <la...@invalid.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 2022-03-25 10:31, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:51:22 -0400, Quinn C
>
>>>>>> But when I buy fresh ginger in a store, it doesn't say
>>>>>> "ginger root". Just "ginger". I'm not convinced yet that your
>>>>>> usage is common.
>>>>>
>>>>> Same here. I've seen the term "ginger root," but when I see it
>>>>> for sale in a store, it's always (almost always?) just
>>>>> "ginger."
>>>>
>>>> The same for 'Beet' vs. 'Beetroot'.
>>>
>>> No, I don't think so. Some BrE should correct me if I'm wrong, but
>>> I think it's called "beet" in AmE and "beetroot" in BrE.
>>
>> In Br. E we distinguish between beetroot, (a tasty purple root used
>> in salad, pickle, soup and borscht), and sugarbeet, not-purple root,
>> grown to produce sugar in Europe.
>>
>> https://www.britannica.com/plant/sugar-beet
>
> In AusE "beet" usually means "silver beet", a leafy vegetable that looks
> like spinach.

Also known as chard (and of course some other names); another cultivar
of the same plant, where mainly the leaves are eaten. I'm not sure what
it's called here when it's not Swiss chard, the one with extra thick
stalks.

A further cultivar is the mangelwurzel, mostly used as fodder. Obviously
a German name, but I'm not familiar with "Mangelwurzel" in German. It
sounds related to Mangold, which is chard. I know the mangelwurzel as
Futterrübe (fodder beet) or Runkelrübe (no idea what the first part
means), and German Wikipedia lists about 25 additional (regional) names
for it, but Mangelwurzel is not one of them.

--
Just because we had a thing for 150 years, don't presume that
you know me.
-- Darla, Angel S02E09

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 8:18:31 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 7:22:06 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Quinn C:
>>>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
>>>>>> No one ever suggested to me that Lebkuchen is gingerbread. It's
>>>>>> nothing like it.
>>>>> That's a quite unique opinion. I've called Lebkuchen gingerbread and
>>>>> gingerbread Lebkuchen for many years, so have friends of mine, and
>>>>> nobody seems confused. It seems rather obvious.
>>>> I happened to open the book The Art of the Dessert today (Sandy Lesberg
>>>> 1977; someone had been throwing it out in this building, and I picked it
>>>> up.) In the index, I noticed this entry:
>>>> Gingerbread
>>>> Cookies, see Lebkuchen, 35
>>>> Plantain, 47
>>> Don't know what a gingerbread cookie might be; gingersnaps
>>> are excellent in very small quantities.
>>> Nor what plantains might have to do with it.
>>
>> A gingerbread cookie is the hardish kind that you can make houses with.
>
> That stretches the meaning of "cookie" beyond the snapping point.

Not at all. It just challenges your overly narrow ideas.

| A gingerbread man is a biscuit or cookie made of gingerbread, usually
| in the shape of a stylized human being,

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gingerbread_man>

I'm pretty certain that this is unremarkable for most speakers of
English.

--
I found the Forshan religion restful. I found the Forshan
religious war less so.
-- J. Scalzi, Redshirts

[Ken Blake]

On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 20:18:21 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 7:22:06 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Quinn C:
>>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>
>>>>> No one ever suggested to me that Lebkuchen is gingerbread. It's
>>>>> nothing like it.
>>>> That's a quite unique opinion. I've called Lebkuchen gingerbread and
>>>> gingerbread Lebkuchen for many years, so have friends of mine, and
>>>> nobody seems confused. It seems rather obvious.
>>>
>>> I happened to open the book The Art of the Dessert today (Sandy Lesberg
>>> 1977; someone had been throwing it out in this building, and I picked it
>>> up.) In the index, I noticed this entry:
>>>
>>> Gingerbread
>>> Cookies, see Lebkuchen, 35
>>> Plantain, 47
>>
>> Don't know what a gingerbread cookie might be; gingersnaps
>> are excellent in very small quantities.
>>
>> Nor what plantains might have to do with it.
>
>A gingerbread cookie is the hardish kind that you can make houses with.

Maybe, but I'm glad that's not what my house is made of.

--
The real, original Ken Blake, not some other newcomer

[lar3ryca]

I don't understand it either.

Before anyone attributes malice or bigotry toward redheads, I assure you
that I have nothing against people with any of the multitudes of hair
colours, including the dyed ones.

I saw a similar statement a few years ago, and got a good laugh out of it.

If anyone missed the actual joke, please feel free to ask me to explain it.