Deathless prose
Laura F Spira
writing some 'deathless prose'. As far as I know, the adjective
'deathless' is not used in any other context than this: where does the
expression come from? Is it a quotation? A Google search seems to
indicate that the phrase is generally used ironically. Any ideas?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Tootsie
Laura F Spira wrote in message
>A scholarly and cultured friend speculated today that I might be busy
>writing some 'deathless prose'. As far as I know, the adjective
>'deathless' is not used in any other context than this: where does the
>expression come from? Is it a quotation? A Google search seems to
>indicate that the phrase is generally used ironically. Any ideas?
Good topic, Laura.
In M-W online, they give, as an example, "deathless fame." I've never
heard that phrase used. (Incidentally, there's a click-on reference on
the M-W page for "deathless" that leads you to Britannica. Lots of stuff
there, but it seems mostly religion-related. I didn't explore.)
As you said, "deathless prose" seems to be the only way that "deathless"
is used these days in common conversation. The M-W meaning --
immortal -- indicates that the prose will live on long after its writer
has left this vale of tears. That would seem to put "deathless prose" in
the good-thing-to-say category.
But...when I hear "deathless prose," I automatically translate it to
mean that the prose just won't go away -- it never dies, it plagues us
forever. Definitely in the bad-thing-to-say column. Am I -- an American,
incapable of discerning irony ;-) -- hearing irony where it doesn't
exist? Or is my interpretation of "deathless prose" simply wrong, or at
best, uncommon?
Tootsie
Peter Prictoe
"Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote in message
news:39DDEB0B...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com...
> A scholarly and cultured friend speculated today that I might be busy
> writing some 'deathless prose'. As far as I know, the adjective
> 'deathless' is not used in any other context than this: where does the
> expression come from? Is it a quotation? A Google search seems to
> indicate that the phrase is generally used ironically. Any ideas?
>
> Laura
> (emulate St. George for email)
> PP I have never met the expression myself except in the ironic sense
and wonder at its origin.
Peter P
Perchprism
>From: "Tootsie" too...@sprynet.com
>Date: 10/7/00 1:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8rnkn7$8iq$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>
>
>
>Laura F Spira wrote in message
>
>>writing some 'deathless prose'. As far as I know, the adjective
>>'deathless' is not used in any other context than this: where does the
>>expression come from? Is it a quotation? A Google search seems to
>>indicate that the phrase is generally used ironically. Any ideas?
>
>
>
>In M-W online, they give, as an example, "deathless fame." I've never
>heard that phrase used. (Incidentally, there's a click-on reference on
>the M-W page for "deathless" that leads you to Britannica. Lots of stuff
>there, but it seems mostly religion-related. I didn't explore.)
>
>As you said, "deathless prose" seems to be the only way that "deathless"
>is used these days in common conversation. The M-W meaning --
>immortal -- indicates that the prose will live on long after its writer
>has left this vale of tears. That would seem to put "deathless prose" in
>the good-thing-to-say category.
>
>But...when I hear "deathless prose," I automatically translate it to
>mean that the prose just won't go away -- it never dies, it plagues us
>forever. Definitely in the bad-thing-to-say column. Am I -- an American,
>incapable of discerning irony ;-) -- hearing irony where it doesn't
>exist? Or is my interpretation of "deathless prose" simply wrong, or at
>best, uncommon?
I don't take it as literally as you do, but I do find it sarcastic. I imagine a
wretched, self-conscious scribbler writing for immortality, instead of for
money as any sane, capable writer does.
That'll be two dollars, please.
--
Perchprism
(southern New Jersey, near Philadelphia)
Robert Lipton
Tootsie wrote:
>
> Laura F Spira wrote in message
>
> >A scholarly and cultured friend speculated today that I might be busy
> >writing some 'deathless prose'. As far as I know, the adjective
> >'deathless' is not used in any other context than this: where does the
> >expression come from? Is it a quotation? A Google search seems to
> >indicate that the phrase is generally used ironically. Any ideas?
SNIP
> But...when I hear "deathless prose," I automatically translate it to
> mean that the prose just won't go away -- it never dies, it plagues us
> forever. Definitely in the bad-thing-to-say column. Am I -- an American,
> incapable of discerning irony ;-) -- hearing irony where it doesn't
> exist? Or is my interpretation of "deathless prose" simply wrong, or at
Ira Gershwin wrote, as best as I can remember it:
Got a little rhythm, a rhythm, a rhythm,
That pitter-pats through my brain:
So darned persistent, the day isn't distant
When it'll drive me insane.
Comes in the morning without any warning,
And hangs around me all day.
I'll have to sneak up to it,
Someday and speak up to it.
I hope it listens when I say:
Fascinating rhythm, you've got me on the go.
Fascinating rhythm, I'll all aquiver.
What a mess you're making! The neighbors want to know
Why I'm always shaking just like a flivver.
Each morning I get up with the sun,
To find at night no work has been done.
I know that once it didn't matter, but now you're doing wrong
When you start to patter, I'm so unhappy.
Won't you take a day off, decide to run along
Somewhere far away off, and make it snappy?
Oh, how I long to be the man I used to be!
Fascinating rhythm, won't you stop picking on me?
Bob
Mike Page
<la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
>A scholarly and cultured friend speculated today that I might be busy
>writing some 'deathless prose'.
Surely, not *that* scholarly if he or she is addicted to cliches.
Mike Page
Let the ape escape for e-mail
Laura F Spira
> On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:08:59 +0100, Laura F Spira
> <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
>
> >A scholarly and cultured friend speculated today that I might be busy
> >writing some 'deathless prose'.
>
> Surely, not *that* scholarly if he or she is addicted to cliches.
>
>
Don't you think that cliches have a certain power, though - rather like
cheap music, perhaps?
Schainbaum, Robert
Deathless anything is ironic. Deathless prose is even more ironic. Two
possibilities. Only you can decide. Either the speaker doesn't think very
much of your writing or he does, but he's embarassed to display unqualified
enthusiasm. You might have to ask Oprah about the latter.
/r
Laura F Spira
A wonderful suggestion, but I am happy to report that the comment caused me no
anxiety whatsoever, so drastic measures such as this are not needed. My query
was about the origin of the expression. I note with interest your assumption
that my friend is male.
Mike Page
<la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
>Mike Page wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:08:59 +0100, Laura F Spira
>> <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
>>
>> >A scholarly and cultured friend speculated today that I might be busy
>> >writing some 'deathless prose'.
>>
>> Surely, not *that* scholarly if he or she is addicted to cliches.
>>
>>
>
>Don't you think that cliches have a certain power, though - rather like
>cheap music, perhaps?
Very similar. Aren't cliches a kind of meme? A phrase becomes a
cliche because it encapsulates a concept people wish to
communicate. Subsequently it becomes tired through repetition
and over-extension of meaning and loses its force. In some ways
what happens afterwards is the most interesting bit. Usually the
tired cliche expires but it may retreat so that it holds a fairly
specific meaning and becomes a useful addition to the language.
Let me pick a couple of examples at random: 'one horse town' and
'jerrymandering'. I bet they were quite fresh and funny for a
while and then became cliches. But now they are useful ways of
expressing an idea.
In the 'deathless prose' example, however, it's probable your
correspondent or interlocutor was just too idle to think up
anything better.
gnohm...@my-deja.com
da...@pagedm.orang.fsnet.co.uk wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 08:50:28 +0100, Laura F Spira
> <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
>
> >Mike Page wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:08:59 +0100, Laura F Spira
> >> <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >A scholarly and cultured friend speculated today that I might be busy
> >> >writing some 'deathless prose'.
> >>
> >> Surely, not *that* scholarly if he or she is addicted to cliches.
> >Don't you think that cliches have a certain power,
Have you noticed that every phrase in _Elegy in a Country Churchyard_ is a
cliche?
When it was written, I suppose they were not cliches but gems of purest ray
serene.
===
Speaking of which, why does the phrase deathless *prose* make me think of
marble and gilded monuments, which ain't prose?
====
Oh, and one more thing. No use of the word deathless in Ira's lyric.
The word deathless is used rather strangely in
http://home.flash.net/~gshields/Sultana.html -- must be an error. Better is
http://faq.Macedonia.org/history/alexander.arrian.html, where the word is
supposed to have been used by Alexander.
However, serching for deathless & lyric doesn't seem to find it in a song
lyric.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Laura F Spira
> Laura F Spira wrote in message
>
> >A scholarly and cultured friend speculated today that I might be busy
> >writing some 'deathless prose'. As far as I know, the adjective
> >'deathless' is not used in any other context than this: where does the
> >expression come from? Is it a quotation? A Google search seems to
> >indicate that the phrase is generally used ironically. Any ideas?
>
> Good topic, Laura.
>
> In M-W online, they give, as an example, "deathless fame." I've never
> heard that phrase used. (Incidentally, there's a click-on reference on
> the M-W page for "deathless" that leads you to Britannica. Lots of stuff
> there, but it seems mostly religion-related. I didn't explore.)
>
> As you said, "deathless prose" seems to be the only way that "deathless"
> is used these days in common conversation. The M-W meaning --
> immortal -- indicates that the prose will live on long after its writer
> has left this vale of tears. That would seem to put "deathless prose" in
> the good-thing-to-say category.
>
> But...when I hear "deathless prose," I automatically translate it to
> mean that the prose just won't go away -- it never dies, it plagues us
> forever. Definitely in the bad-thing-to-say column. Am I -- an American,
> incapable of discerning irony ;-) -- hearing irony where it doesn't
> exist? Or is my interpretation of "deathless prose" simply wrong, or at
> best, uncommon?
>
>
I think your irony detector is working perfectly well, Tootsie, but I am
looking forward to my US trip next month to escape the irony that pervades
life over here.
Laura F Spira
> On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 08:50:28 +0100, Laura F Spira
> <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
>
> >Mike Page wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:08:59 +0100, Laura F Spira
> >> <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >A scholarly and cultured friend speculated today that I might be busy
> >> >writing some 'deathless prose'.
> >>
> >> Surely, not *that* scholarly if he or she is addicted to cliches.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Don't you think that cliches have a certain power, though - rather like
> >cheap music, perhaps?
>
> Very similar. Aren't cliches a kind of meme? A phrase becomes a
> cliche because it encapsulates a concept people wish to
> communicate. Subsequently it becomes tired through repetition
> and over-extension of meaning and loses its force. In some ways
> what happens afterwards is the most interesting bit. Usually the
> tired cliche expires but it may retreat so that it holds a fairly
> specific meaning and becomes a useful addition to the language.
> Let me pick a couple of examples at random: 'one horse town' and
> 'jerrymandering'. I bet they were quite fresh and funny for a
> while and then became cliches. But now they are useful ways of
> expressing an idea.
>
> In the 'deathless prose' example, however, it's probable your
> correspondent or interlocutor was just too idle to think up
> anything better.
>
>
We can but speculate about this since I would not dream of raising the
subject with said individual. I find it most interesting that a number of
respondents to my post seem to have focused on the intention behind the
remark, rather than my request for some clue as to its origin. (I am still
pondering the suggestion about seeking advice from Oprah.) If anyone is
interested, I append the response received from Nigel Rees (deviser and
presenter of BBC Radio 4's 'Quote Unquote' programme: see
http://www1c.btwebworld.com/quote-unquote/)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good question - a phase ignored by the OED and not a quotation, I don't
think. This is what I put in my book PHRASES AND SAYINGS (Bloomsbury,
1995):
deathless prose/verse. An (often ironical) description of writing,
sometimes used self-deprecatingly about one's own poor stuff. 'He would
embody the suggestion about the nose in deathless verse' (Rudyard Kipling,
'Slaves of the Lamp, Part 1', 1897); 'Robert Burns once expressed in
deathless verse a Great Wish. His wish, translated into my far from
deathless prose, was to the effect ... ' (Collie Knox, For Ever England,
1943). 'A passionate devotion to your deathless prose' - 1963 letter from
M. Lincoln Schuster to Groucho Marx in The Groucho Letters (1967). 'No
piece of prose, however deathless, is worth a human life' - Kenneth Tynan,
The Observer (13 March 1966). From an actor's diary: 'The writer ...
concentrates his most vicious verbal gymnastics [in these scenes]. After we
've mangled the deathless prose we have another cup of tea' (Independent on
Sunday, 13 May 1990).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Laura F Spira
[..]
>
> > Very similar. Aren't cliches a kind of meme? A phrase becomes a
> > cliche because it encapsulates a concept people wish to
> > communicate. Subsequently it becomes tired through repetition
> > and over-extension of meaning and loses its force. In some ways
> > what happens afterwards is the most interesting bit. Usually the
> > tired cliche expires but it may retreat so that it holds a fairly
> > specific meaning and becomes a useful addition to the language.
> > Let me pick a couple of examples at random: 'one horse town' and
> > 'jerrymandering'. I bet they were quite fresh and funny for a
> > while and then became cliches. But now they are useful ways of
> > expressing an idea.
>
> Let's keep an eye on the word "meme"; it is following that selfsame
> path.
>
How very true. And have you ever strayed into alt.memetics?
Skitt
"Laura F Spira" <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote in message
news:39E36478...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com...
Are they into mimetics, or act like emetics?
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://i.am/skitt/
Wayward in Hayward
R. Fontana
> Tootsie wrote:
>
> > Laura F Spira wrote in message
> >
> > >A scholarly and cultured friend speculated today that I might be busy
I have gotten the impression that Milton Keynes is also an irony-free
zone.
--
Richard
Laura F Spira
Hardly. It is the home of the Open University and some part of the Institute of
Chartered Accountants in England and Wales.
Alex Chernavsky
>I find it most interesting that a number of respondents
>to my post seem to have focused on the intention behind
>the remark, rather than my request for some clue as to its
>origin.
Well I, for one, am starting to feel bad for you. One of your friends tells
you that you have bad taste in opera. Another friend (or is it the same
one?) makes sarcastic comments about your writing.
With friends like those, who needs enemas?
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
hed...@my-deja.com
Laura F Spira <la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
[...]
>I find it most interesting that a number of
> respondents to my post seem to have focused on the intention behind
the
> Laura
> (emulate St. George for email)
>
>
It's because of the way you asked the question. To paraphrase you said:
Someone called your prose "deathless."
You don't know where the phrase comes from.
You seem to think it might often be used ironically.
Does anybody have any ideas?
It is not clear in what you wrote whether you were attempting to elicit
comments on the origin of the phrase or on its ironic usage or both.
Harold
Robert Lieblich
[ . . . ]
> > How very true. And have you ever strayed into alt.memetics?
>
> Are they into mimetics, or act like emetics?
Two postings up (on my newsreader, anyway) Alex Chernavsky is offering
enemas. And on another thread we have coprophagous canines.
Truly a hard day at the orifices.
Laura F Spira
> Laura F. Spira wrote, in part:
>
> >I find it most interesting that a number of respondents
> >to my post seem to have focused on the intention behind
> >the remark, rather than my request for some clue as to its
> >origin.
>
> Well I, for one, am starting to feel bad for you. One of your friends tells
> you that you have bad taste in opera. Another friend (or is it the same
> one?) makes sarcastic comments about your writing.
>
> With friends like those, who needs enemas?
>
>
Alex, I am touched by your concern, but neither friend has offended me. After
all, a friend is someone who knows you and still likes you.
--
Charles Riggs
<la...@DRAGONspira.u-net.com> wrote:
>I think your irony detector is working perfectly well, Tootsie, but I am
>looking forward to my US trip next month to escape the irony that pervades
>life over here.
Hmm. Tell us more when you return.
Charles Riggs
Stephen Toogood
<lieb...@erols.com> writes
>
>Two postings up (on my newsreader, anyway) Alex Chernavsky is offering
>enemas. And on another thread we have coprophagous canines.
>
>Truly a hard day at the orifices.
My candidate for <laugh of the week>. Excellent.
--
Stephen Toogood
Matti Lamprhey
> >I find it most interesting that a number of
> > respondents to my post seem to have focused on the intention behind
> It's because of the way you asked the question. To paraphrase you said:
>
> Someone called your prose "deathless."
> You don't know where the phrase comes from.
> You seem to think it might often be used ironically.
> Does anybody have any ideas?
>
>
> It is not clear in what you wrote whether you were attempting to elicit
> comments on the origin of the phrase or on its ironic usage or both.
I think Laura was very clear -- "where does the phrase come from?" can have
only the former interpretation.
_Pace_ Nigel Rees, I am sure it must be a "quote", just one which hasn't
turned up yet.
Matti
hed...@my-deja.com
The last two sentences from the original post:
"A Google search seems to indicate that the phrase is generally
used ironically. Any ideas? "
The way that I figured it, Laura was asking for ideas both about the
origin of the expression and its ironical usage.
My post was not intended to find fault, by the way, I was trying to
explain why other responses went the way they did. It does appear
rather abrupt, I guess, and for that I apologize.