"Invisible" Letters
C Porter9
Raspberry. Salmon. Often. Knight. Arkansas
No P, no L, no T, no K, no S.
Leaving out those words with pn, kn, or silent e (too numerously easy), what
other words have invisible letters in them? The first words above should give a
hint at what I'm searching for . . .
just for a fun diversion,
Chris
PaulArris
Take a bough.
Paul
(My dog thought of that one. Wough!;-)
Thomas Schenk
C Porter9 wrote:
>
> Raspberry. Salmon. Often. Knight. Arkansas
> No P, no L, no T, no K, no S.
> Leaving out those words with pn, kn, or silent e (too numerously easy), what
> other words have invisible letters in them? The first words above should give a
> hint at what I'm searching for . . .
> just for a fun diversion,
I can't see that any of these letters is "invisible"--I can see every
one of them.
Perhaps you meant "silent" or "unvoiced". Since English orthography is
a hopeless but glorious morass of evolutionary ideograms, it's safe to
say that there are thousands of words which contain unpronounced
letters.
Tom
--
*******************
Dr Thomas M Schenk
Laguna Beach, California
Robert Lieblich
Craig Welch wrote:
>
> cpor...@aol.com (C Porter9) wrote:
>
> >Raspberry. Salmon. Often. Knight. Arkansas
> >No P, no L, no T, no K, no S.
>
>
> I've never heard "arkansas" spoken, but always assumed that it was
> spoken as written, with a couple of "s"s. How is it pronounced?
The state is "AR-k@n-saw." The river of the same name that runs through
the state of Arkansas has its source in the state of Kansas ("KAN-z@s");
traditionally, it's the "ar-KAN-z@s" river in Kansas and the
"AR-k@m-saw" river in the state of Arkansas. The AR-k@n-saw
pronunciation is used in most other places and may be spreading into
Kansas.
Then there's the second "c" in Connecticut. And the "s" in Illinois.
And the first "i" in looze-ee-ANN-uh.
And the first "e' in "interesting." And the "t" in "thistle." The
first "m" in "mnemonic." The "o" in "Oedipal." The "a" in "aesthete."
The "ch" in "chthonian." The "b" in "debt." The "h" in "ghastly."
Good thing we have a few letters we *do* pronounce.
Bob Lieblich
Larry Phillips
Craig Welch wrote:
> I've never heard "arkansas" spoken, but always assumed that it was
> spoken as written, with a couple of "s"s. How is it pronounced?
Are can saw
--
------------------------------------------------------------
Sixty billion gigabits can do much. It even does windows.
-- Fred Pohl, Beyond the Blue Event Horizon, 1980
http://home.bc.rogers.wave.ca/larryp
------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Mason
Craig Welch wrote:
>
> I've never heard "arkansas" spoken, but always assumed that it was
> spoken as written, with a couple of "s"s. How is it pronounced?
Arkan-saw.
--
Richard Mason
mason at robby dot caltech dot edu
N.Mitchum
Craig Welch wrote:
-----
> I've never heard "arkansas" spoken, but always assumed that it was
> spoken as written, with a couple of "s"s. How is it pronounced?
Never heard any background on Bill Clinton, the former governor of
the state?
It's pronounced AR-kun-saw. But the river is sometimes the
ar-KAN-zuss.
--- NM
Mailed copies of replies always appreciated. (Mailers: drop HINTS.)
C Porter9
Tom wrote:
>C Porter9 wrote:
>>
>> Raspberry. Salmon. Often. Knight. Arkansas
>> No P, no L, no T, no K, no S.
>> other words have invisible letters in them? The first words above should
give a
>> hint at what I'm searching for . . .
>> just for a fun diversion,
>
>I can't see that any of these letters is "invisible"--I can see every
>one of them.
>Perhaps you meant "silent" or "unvoiced". Since English orthography is
>a hopeless but glorious morass of evolutionary ideograms, it's safe to
>say that there are thousands of words which contain unpronounced
>letters.
>
>Tom
It would (u, l) be from the third definition in my dictionary-not easily (a)
noticed or detected. But still, I owe (we) you (o) a debt (b) for pointing out
my "mistake" (e). I really (l) was just looking for words where a usually
voiced consonent (in other words) went suddenly (d) quiet. (u).
Walking into pitfalls is my speciality. I pronounced salmon wrong for years.
Chris
Cheers, Chris
http://members.aol.com/cporter9/index.html
Stan Brown
cpor...@aol.com (C Porter9) skrev i meddelelsen
<199804092258...@ladder01.news.aol.com>:
>Raspberry. Salmon. Often. Knight. Arkansas
>No P, no L, no T, no K, no S.
>Leaving out those words with pn, kn, or silent e (too numerously easy), what
>other words have invisible letters in them
Invisible letters? You mean like the x in 'more"?
*Silent* letters occur in many, many English words, but invisible letters
only in those written with lemon juice.
--
My reply address is correct as is. The courtesy of providing a correct
reply address is more important to me than time spent deleting spam.
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
http://www.concentric.net/%7eBrownsta/
SLHinton17
C Porter9 writes
>Raspberry. Salmon. Often. Knight. Arkansas
>No P, no L, no T, no K, no S.
>Leaving out those words with pn, kn, or silent e (too numerously easy), what
a
>hint at what I'm searching for . . .
>just for a fun diversion,
****************************
In zoological terminology, there are some terms that have derived from Greek
and Latin words in which a "K" sound is folowed by a consonant. This "k" sound
is now sometimes represented by a "c" and is not usually pronounced in such
words as that for the phylum "Ctenophora" or the lizard genus
_Cnemidophorus_."
Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA
John Cheung
Some would pronounce "often" with silent "t" while others would pronounce
the "t" clearly. Is this again one of those differences between
American and British pronounciations ?
John Cheung
Craig Welch <cr...@pacific.net.sg> wrote
> cpor...@aol.com (C Porter9) wrote:
>
> >Raspberry. Salmon. Often. Knight. Arkansas
> >No P, no L, no T, no K, no S.
>
Orne Batmagoo
In article <352D96...@erols.com>,
Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> writes:
> Craig Welch wrote:
>>
>> cpor...@aol.com (C Porter9) wrote:
>>
>> >Raspberry. Salmon. Often. Knight. Arkansas
[Bob's many fine examples deleted.]
These are probably of interest only to geography freaks, but I will add
Mackinac, an island in Michigan (pronounced "Mackinaw"), and the Willamette
River valley in Oregon (pronounced "Will-AM-it").
I know that "Willamette" has no silent letters -- save its final 'e' --
but its pronunciation is not what I'd default to, given the orthography.
The local citizens of these areas are quite proud of the correct way to
pronounce the names, to the extent that rhyming exhortations have arisen
about them, in both cases:
"It's Mackinac, and that's the law!"
And:
"It's Willamette, damn it!"
But for silent letters, or otherwise "strange" -- and I mean that in a good
way -- orthography, especially with regard to proper names, I think it nigh
impossible to top Mother England.
Featherstoneshaugh is pronounced "Fanshaw", Cholmondley is pronounced "Chumly",
and then there are all those "-cesters" like Worcester, Glocester, and
Leicester, pronounced "Wooster", "Gloster", and "Lester", respectively.
[Note: I was going to omit the word "respectively", but in this case I put
it in, since it now seems conceivable that an English name could be spelled
as Sathferkneighbellimapsomeforth, and pronounced "Smith".]
I've forgotten, if I knew. Was Lancashire once spelled as "Lancastershire"?
Her Majesty's Royal Navy also came up with some good ones: boatswain,
pronounced "bosun"; forecastle, pronounced "focsle"; topgallant, pronounced
"t'gallant"; etc. Spelling variations, by which such authors as Richard
Henry Dana conveyed the actual pronunciation of these terms, use apostrophes
to indicate which letters of the original spelling were to remain silent.
The list goes on and on. Tonight, I'm going to sit down with the OED, and
read it from cover to cover, and find the rest of these.
Speaking of the OED, I recently became very intrigued by the entries for
"scotsemnail" and "scotnail". I won't try to type them in here, but those
with access may wish to read these entries also. I hope you'll enjoy them
as I did. And if you can understand any of it, I'd appreciate it if you'd
clue me in.
--
Orne Batmagoo
Orne Batmagoo
Just a quick followup to my own earlier posting:
In article <6gle5f$d94$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
r...@darkstar.uwsa.edu.SPAM (Orne Batmagoo) writes:
> The local citizens of these areas are quite proud of the correct way to
Regarding the pronunciation of local place names, I remembered a humorous
tale I read in a comic strip a few years ago, which I shall share:
A husband and wife are driving through the country, and happen to travel
through a small hamlet by the name of Bypass.
"It's pronounced 'BYE-pass', I tell you!"
"No, I'm sure I read somewhere that the locals pronounce it "BIPPuz".
"All right, we'll never settle this by arguing; Let's stop somewhere and
ask one of the locals."
They pull into a gas station (petrol shoppe?) where a young lad is pumping
gas. "Just how _do_ you pronounce the name of this place, anyway?"
The fellow stares blankly at them for a moment, and then proudly says,
"MURLZ".
--
Orne Batmagoo
N.Mitchum
Craig Welch wrote:
-----
> >the state?
>
> about him.
>.....
You surprise me. You say you've never heard much of what has been
said about Paula Jones? Never heard reports about the Whitewater
affair? I'd have thought any mention of either would be prefaced
by a short line of explanation, which should include the word
"Arkansas."
Skitt
Craig Welch wrote in message
<3539770d...@news.ozemail.com.au>...
>I've never heard "arkansas" spoken, but always assumed that it was
>spoken as written, with a couple of "s"s. How is it pronounced?
Arkansaw
Avi.Ja...@pbdir.com
In article <352D96...@erols.com>,
Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
[in a long thread containing a long list of silent letters:]
> And the first "e' in "interesting."
Not quite, not everywhere. Here in the Bay Area, many pronounce this word
"inner-resting", with a healthy portion of secondary stress on precisely that
"e".
--
Avi Jacobson, email: Avi.Ja...@pbdir.com | When an idea is
or: Av...@amdocs.com | wanting, a word
| can always be found
Opinions are those of the poster, =NOT= of | to take its place.
Amdocs, Inc. or Pacific Bell Directory. | -- Goethe
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
C Porter9
(Orne Batmagoo)
writes:
>
<These are probably of interest only to geography freaks, but I will add
>Mackinac, an island in Michigan (pronounced "Mackinaw"), and the Willamette
>River valley in Oregon (pronounced "Will-AM-it").
>
>I know that "Willamette" has no silent letters -- save its final 'e' --
>but its pronunciation is not what I'd default to, given the orthography.
So that's where Mackinaw is hiding! And I would have said Willa-met, too. I
enjoy these kinds of letteral surprises-they make speaking words you've only
read more exciting.
. . .
>Featherstoneshaugh is pronounced "Fanshaw", Cholmondley is pronounced
"Chumly",
>and then there are all those "-cesters" like Worcester, Glocester, and
>Leicester, pronounced "Wooster", "Gloster", and "Lester", respectively.
. . .
And folks accuse us midwesterners (U.S.) of lazy tongues. Hm.
>Her Majesty's Royal Navy also came up with some good ones: boatswain,
>pronounced "bosun"; forecastle, pronounced "focsle"; topgallant, pronounced
>"t'gallant"; etc. Spelling variations, by which such authors as Richard
>Henry Dana conveyed the actual pronunciation of these terms, use apostrophes
>to indicate which letters of the original spelling were to remain silent.
Bosun-this one I've heard, not seen. Must be completely invisible, if not
silent.
>The list goes on and on. Tonight, I'm going to sit down with the OED, and
>read it from cover to cover, and find the rest of these.
That's how I started. I was looking for such startling words in AHD after I
happened to casually glance at "salmon".
Cheers, Chris
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
On 10 Apr 1998 15:34:07 GMT, r...@darkstar.uwsa.edu.SPAM (Orne
Batmagoo) wrote:
>In article <352D96...@erols.com>,
>Speaking of the OED, I recently became very intrigued by the entries for
>"scotsemnail" and "scotnail". I won't try to type them in here, but those
>with access may wish to read these entries also. I hope you'll enjoy them
>as I did. And if you can understand any of it, I'd appreciate it if you'd
>clue me in.
>
It seems perfectly clear to me. Surely it's an obsolete term for a
small rivet, evidently used in the fabric of churches?
Mush
Some words with Latin connotation pronounces P, etc
E.g. Pneumatic.
In English it is (P) (Neumatic.) but in French it is Pneumatic where
the P.
is not silent and is pronounced.
SLHinton17 wrote in message
<199804101331...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>C Porter9 writes
>>Raspberry. Salmon. Often. Knight. Arkansas
>>No P, no L, no T, no K, no S.
Truly Donovan
>The state is "AR-k@n-saw." The river of the same name that runs through
>the state of Arkansas has its source in the state of Kansas ("KAN-z@s");
>traditionally, it's the "ar-KAN-z@s" river in Kansas and the
>"AR-k@m-saw" river in the state of Arkansas. The AR-k@n-saw
>pronunciation is used in most other places and may be spreading into
>Kansas.
You mean it starts in Kansas, loops back through Colorado so it can
provide white-water rafting in the Rockies, and *then* heads for
Arkansas?
I've been to Kansas, and there's nothing there that could *start* a
river. A wading pool maybe, but no river.
--
Truly Donovan
reply to truly at lunemere dot com
Robert Lieblich
I see that I'll have to replace my current atlas, which shows Colorado
as a county in Kansas.
Or else I'll have to look things up rather than post from memory. As I
just did on the question of whether any rivers rise in Kansas. Many do,
although not the Arkansas.
Can we at least agree that at some point in its meanderings the Arkansas
River does pass through Kansas? Where it's called the ar-KAN-z@s.
Bob Lieblich
Bob Cunningham
On 10 Apr 1998 08:46:34 EDT, brow...@concentric.net (Stan Brown) said:
[ . . . ]
>*Silent* letters occur in many, many English words, but invisible letters
>only in those written with lemon juice.
How about the invisible 'p' in 'comfortable' and 'something'?
PaulArris
Orne Batmagoo wrote:
{Major snipping, fore and aft]
> Featherstoneshaugh is pronounced "Fanshaw", Cholmondley is pronounced "Chumly",
> and then there are all those "-cesters" like Worcester, Glocester, and
> Leicester, pronounced "Wooster", "Gloster", and "Lester", respectively.
> [Note: I was going to omit the word "respectively", but in this case I put
> it in, since it now seems conceivable that an English name could be spelled
> as Sathferkneighbellimapsomeforth, and pronounced "Smith".]
>
> Orne Batmagoo
Back in my old neighborhood in Massachusetts the eponymous town is spelt
"Gloucester", (mispronounced "Glowster"), the same as the English one. Little
Rhody's version is indeed "Glocester".
Paul Sathferkneighbellimapsomeforth ;-)
(aka Paul Smith)
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
There is a visible 'p' in sump thing, but we usually say 'handle'.
Brian Duguid
>You surprise me. You say you've never heard much of what has been
>said about Paula Jones? Never heard reports about the Whitewater
>affair?
Oddly enough, the whole world does not take a great and detailed
interest in American domestic politics. I notice that Mr Welch was
posting from a Singapore address.
Brian Duguid
brian....@iname.com www.hyperreal.org/~duguid/
Peter Buchwald
Another place name which is not pronounced as it is written, is Beauchamp
Place, London SW3 (pronounced "Beecham Place").
PAB
http://www.buchwald.dircon.co.uk/
Orne Batmagoo wrote in message <6gle5f$d94$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>...
>In article <352D96...@erols.com>,
Aaron J. Dinkin
In article <35329aff...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, exw...@ix.netcom.com
(Bob Cunningham) wrote:
> On 10 Apr 1998 08:46:34 EDT, brow...@concentric.net (Stan Brown) said:
>
> [ . . . ]
>
> >*Silent* letters occur in many, many English words, but invisible letters
> >only in those written with lemon juice.
>
> How about the invisible 'p' in 'comfortable' and 'something'?
I don't pronounce a /p/ in either of those words. Hey, here's something:
how about words is which the letters are written in a different order than
the phonemes are pronounced: "comfortable" /'kVmft@rb@l/, with /t/ before
/r/; "Wednesday" /'wEndzde/, perhaps; any others?
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
DK
In Dutch, the words for psychiatrist, pterodactyl and pneumonia
are spelled almost identically to the English, but you pronounce
the "P". Very odd to an English speaker.
--Katrina
Bob Cunningham
>In article <35329aff...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, exw...@ix.netcom.com
>(Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>> On 10 Apr 1998 08:46:34 EDT, brow...@concentric.net (Stan Brown) said:
>> [ . . . ]
>> >*Silent* letters occur in many, many English words, but invisible letters
>> >only in those written with lemon juice.
>> How about the invisible 'p' in 'comfortable' and 'something'?
>I don't pronounce a /p/ in either of those words.
I don't think I always do, but apparently enough people do to have the
phenomenon recognized by MWCD10. They show the pronunciations
['kVm(p)(f)t@(r)b@l] (from which eight different pronunciations can be
inferred), and ['sVm(p)TIN]. (MWCD10 also shows ['kVm(p)f@(r)t@b@l],
but the metathetic version is first, which may or may not mean that it's
heard more frequently than the other one.)
>Hey, here's something:
>how about words is which the letters are written in a different order than
>the phonemes are pronounced: "comfortable" /'kVmft@rb@l/, with /t/ before
>/r/; "Wednesday" /'wEndzde/, perhaps; any others?
That's called metathesis, as you probably already knew. I've read of
English words whose present forms were produced by metathesis from
earlier words. An example from WNWCD is 'clasp', which in Middle
English was 'clapse'. (AHD3 doesn't have that etymology, but MWCD10
does.)
A Word Hunter search in AHD3 on 'metathesis' turns up 'threshold', which
may have come from Old English 'therscold'. OED has a citation from
A.D. 1000 with the spelling 'therxolde' (I've substituted 'th' for the
symbol that's called 'thorn'.)
Then there's 'third'. In Middle English there were 'thridde' and
'thirde', and in Old English there were 'thridda' and 'thirdda'.
I think I've read that the word 'riding' -- in the sense of a division
of territory -- came from an earlier word 'thriding', which was
metathetically related to dividing into 'thirds'.
Metathesis has apparently been around a long time. _Cassell's Latin
Dictionary_ seems to be saying that in the expression 'three at a time',
'three' may be translated into Latin 'trini' or 'terni'.
SLHinton17
Aaron J. Dinkin writes:
>........ Hey, here's something: how about words is which the letters are
written in a >different order than the phonemes are pronounced: "comfortable"
/'kVmft@rb@l/, >with /t/ before /r/; "Wednesday" /'wEndzde/, perhaps; any
others?
Yes, there's at least one oither -- everything with a "wh" in it, which we
prounce "hw".
-
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
Hi Sam. If you have selected this NG take a look at Bob Cunningham's
taking-a-look. But as far as "wh" is concerned, spoken with an
aspirated "h", that is, some people here will tell you they do not
know what you are talking about. Then read Fowler, if you are still
interested. It is not _every_ "wh". BTW -- there's never been a "w" in
a 'whoresome knave', to *my* knowledge. Nor is the "wh" an "hw".
Truly Donovan
On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:28:00 -0400, Robert Lieblich
<lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>...As I
>just did on the question of whether any rivers rise in Kansas. Many do,
>although not the Arkansas.
I knew *somebody* would do that. I must commend your restraint in not
listing them. It just means somebody drained the wading pool, anyway.
Markus Laker
exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
> On 10 Apr 1998 08:46:34 EDT, brow...@concentric.net (Stan Brown) said:
>
> [ . . . ]
>
> >*Silent* letters occur in many, many English words, but invisible letters
> >only in those written with lemon juice.
>
> How about the invisible 'p' in 'comfortable' and 'something'?
I don't have an invisible 'p' in those words, but everyone[1] puts an
invisible 'p' in 'hamster'. There's none in 'hamstring', though, and
I'm at a loss to explain the difference.
Markus
[1] nearly
--
a.u.e resources: http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~laker/aue/
Remove the 'skip this bit' bit of my email address to reply.
Peter Buchwald
>Aaron J. Dinkin writes:
>>........ Hey, here's something: how about words is which the letters are
>written in a >different order than the phonemes are pronounced:
"comfortable"
>/'kVmft@rb@l/, >with /t/ before /r/; "Wednesday" /'wEndzde/, perhaps; any
>others?
I pronounce all these words as they are spelt - but then someone once told
me I have a speech defect.
Other pronounciations I have heard people use:
nucular (nuclear)
vetinary (veterinary)
pecification (specification).
(The chap who pronounced specification with a silent "s" had a daughter who
pronounced it the same way, but who always had a worried look on her face
when she said this word, as if she knew she was saying something not quite
right, but didn't know what it was.)
PAB
http://www.buchwald.dircon.co.uk/
SLHinton17
This gets complicated, but I'll try . . .
On 11 Apr 1998 23:52:22 GMT, slhin...@aol.com (SLHinton17) [that's me] wrote:
>Aaron J. Dinkin writes:
>>........ Hey, here's something: how about words is which the letters are
>written in a >different order than the phonemes are pronounced: "comfortable"
>/'kVmft@rb@l/, >with /t/ before /r/; "Wednesday" /'wEndzde/, perhaps; any
>others?
>***********************
To which I answered:
>Yes, there's at least one other -- everything with a "wh" in it, which we
>pronounce "hw".
To which <a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca> answered:
>-
>Hi Sam. If you have selected this NG take a look at Bob Cunningham's
taking-a-look But as far as "wh" is concerned, spoken with an
>aspirated "h", that is, some people here will tell you they do not
>know what you are talking about. Then read Fowler, if you are still
>interested. It is not _every_ "wh". BTW -- there's never been a "w" in
>a 'whoresome knave', to *my* knowledge. Nor is the "wh" an "hw".
************************************
I'm sorry to have submitted such an ill-edited posting. I should have left out
the comma after "in it", and somehow stressed the "WE", which would have
better conveyed my intended meaning: "...all those words with "wh" which WE
(meaning most of the people I hear in the US) pronounce 'hw'" But I must
confess that I had not read the pertinent paragraph in Fowler, and am surprised
to learn that the sound is generally a pure "w" in RP; among my acquaintances,
leaving out the aspirate in "what", "which," "why," "where," "while" and
"when" is considered "substandard." But we don't aspirate "who," or, as you
mention, "whore." ("Whoresome knave" is a new expression to me; I do know
"whoreson knave." There must be many other exceptions.
BTW--could you be more specific about a posting from Bob Cunningham? I read
all his notes, but haven't found one that I can match to your "taking-a-look"
description.
Many thanks.
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
>exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>
>> On 10 Apr 1998 08:46:34 EDT, brow...@concentric.net (Stan Brown) said:
>>
>> [ . . . ]
>>
>> >*Silent* letters occur in many, many English words, but invisible letters
>> >only in those written with lemon juice.
>>
>> How about the invisible 'p' in 'comfortable' and 'something'?
>
>I don't have an invisible 'p' in those words, but everyone[1] puts an
>invisible 'p' in 'hamster'. There's none in 'hamstring', though, and
>I'm at a loss to explain the difference.
>
>Markus
>
>[1] nearly
>
Where do you get this stuff, Markus? I have NEVER heard ANYONE say
"hampster". Hamper yes, but most people have ..............
Oh well, What's the use?
N.Mitchum
Brian Duguid wrote:
-----
> >You surprise me. You say you've never heard much of what has been
> >said about Paula Jones? Never heard reports about the Whitewater
> >affair?
>
> Oddly enough, the whole world does not take a great and detailed
> interest in American domestic politics. I notice that Mr Welch was
> posting from a Singapore address.
You cut the final sentence of my reply, the one explaining why I
was surprised: "I'd have thought any mention of either would be
prefaced by a short line of explanation, which should include the
word "Arkansas." Mr. Welch said he knew all about these matters
through his readings; I only wondered why he had not heard the
name of the state spoken on the broadcast news.
Markus Laker
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
> Where do you get this stuff, Markus?
By keeping my ears open. By the way, if you're going to use my name,
which you're welcome to do, then will you please have the courtesy to
tell me your own?
> I have NEVER heard ANYONE say
> "hampster".
Most people I know (and they're not RP speakers) put a glottal stop
after the [m]. This creates enough pressure to almost guarantee a
plosive when the lips are opened for the [s], and the result is
[h&m?pst@]. Indeed, someone recently asked me how to spell 'hamster'
and was genuinely surprised at the lack of a 'p'.
Now, for all I know, Canadian speakers say something more like
[h&mst@r]. It may even be that your invisible friends in England in the
early 1950s didn't put an invisible 'p' in 'hamster'. Things are
different now.
Markus
Bob Cunningham
>exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>
>> On 10 Apr 1998 08:46:34 EDT, brow...@concentric.net (Stan Brown) said:
>>
>> [ . . . ]
>>
>> >*Silent* letters occur in many, many English words, but invisible letters
>> >only in those written with lemon juice.
>>
>> How about the invisible 'p' in 'comfortable' and 'something'?
>
>I don't have an invisible 'p' in those words, but everyone[1] puts an
>invisible 'p' in 'hamster'. There's none in 'hamstring', though, and
>I'm at a loss to explain the difference.
The jury still seems to be out on how pervasive is the invisible 'p' in
'hamster'. (I, for one, don't have it.)
But while that matter is being decided, there are a few other invisible
letters that need to be recognized.
One is whatever invisible letter goes with the invisible schwa in the
substandard pronunciation ['&T@li:t] ('ATHaleet'). Another is the
invisible letter that finds its substandard way into 'aperture',
producing ['&p@r@tS@r] ('APerachur'), and which all too often results in
the misspelling 'aperature'.
Invisible letters that are not substandard are the extra 't's that find
their way into 'thirteen', 'fourteen', 'seventeen', 'eighteen', and
'nineteen', which I most often pronounce ['T@rt ti:n], ['fOrt ti:n],
['sEv@nt ti:n], ['Eit ti:n], and ['nAint ti:n] ('THIRT teen', 'FORT
teen', 'SEVENT teen', 'EIGHT teen', and 'NIGHNT teen', where 'nighnt'
rhymes with 'pint').
Paul and Doreen Cheesmond
Bob Cunningham wrote:
> >> >*Silent* letters occur in many, many English words, but invisible letters
> >> >only in those written with lemon juice.
> >>
> >> How about the invisible 'p' in 'comfortable' and 'something'?
Never heard those!
> >I don't have an invisible 'p' in those words, but everyone[1] puts an
> >invisible 'p' in 'hamster'. There's none in 'hamstring', though, and
> >I'm at a loss to explain the difference.
I've got a pee'n'hamster!
> The jury still seems to be out on how pervasive is the invisible 'p' in
> 'hamster'. (I, for one, don't have it.)
>
> But while that matter is being decided, there are a few other invisible
> letters that need to be recognized.
>
> One is whatever invisible letter goes with the invisible schwa in the
> substandard pronunciation ['&T@li:t] ('ATHaleet'). Another is the
> invisible letter that finds its substandard way into 'aperture',
> producing ['&p@r@tS@r] ('APerachur'), and which all too often results in
> the misspelling 'aperature'.
I don't [ath-a-lete] and I never heard anyone aper-a-ture!
But I have heard 'invisible' [r] in law and order - law rand order.
> Invisible letters that are not substandard are the extra 't's that find
> their way into 'thirteen', 'fourteen', 'seventeen', 'eighteen', and
> 'nineteen', which I most often pronounce ['T@rt ti:n], ['fOrt ti:n],
> ['sEv@nt ti:n], ['Eit ti:n], and ['nAint ti:n] ('THIRT teen', 'FORT
> teen', 'SEVENT teen', 'EIGHT teen', and 'NIGHNT teen', where 'nightnt'
> rhymes with 'pint').
I would save those extra tees Bob you might need them elsewhere - *g*
D.
Larry Phillips
Bob Cunningham wrote:
>
> The jury still seems to be out on how pervasive is the invisible 'p'
> in 'hamster'. (I, for one, don't have it.)
Nor I.
> Invisible letters that are not substandard are the extra 't's that
> find their way into 'thirteen', 'fourteen', 'seventeen', 'eighteen',
> and 'nineteen', which I most often pronounce ['T@rt ti:n],
> ['fOrt ti:n], ['sEv@nt ti:n], ['Eit ti:n], and ['nAint ti:n]
> ('THIRT teen', 'FORT teen', 'SEVENT teen', 'EIGHT teen', and
> 'NIGHNT teen', where 'nighnt' rhymes with 'pint').
Are the first 'T' sounds in your examples actually pronounced, or are
they sort of half pronopunced? When I say those words, a few of them
have a half pronounced 'T' at the end of the first syllable. That is,
I end the first syllable abruptly, and with the tongue closing off
the airflow in preparation for the second half of the letter, which is
the sharp release of air. The words I say this way are thirteen,
fourteen, eighteen, and sometimes nineteen.
I don't think of these as being extra 't's. I do think of some 't's as
being only half pronounced, such as the 't' in 'flat' when it forms
part of 'flat tire', where only one 't' sound is fully formed, with
a slight pause between the start of the first one and the end of the
second, and which, to me, sounds the same as the middle 't's in the
examples you mention.
Is this just another way of looking at it, or is there a good reason
(or even a linguistic convention) for choosing one or the other?
--
------------------------------------------------------------
Sixty billion gigabits can do much. It even does windows.
-- Fred Pohl, Beyond the Blue Event Horizon, 1980
http://home.bc.rogers.wave.ca/larryp
------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Phillips
Orne Batmagoo wrote:
> These are probably of interest only to geography freaks, but I will
> add Mackinac, an island in Michigan (pronounced "Mackinaw"), and the
> Willamette River valley in Oregon (pronounced "Will-AM-it").
I am reminded of the name 'Waco', which is pronounced 'way-co' if you
mean the town in Texas, and 'wack-o' (to rhyme with tobacco) if you
mean aircraft.
The Chocolate Lady
during the alt.usage.english Community News Flash,
cr...@pacific.net.sg (Craig Welch) wrote:
>Robert Lieblich <lieb...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>Then there's the second "c" in Connecticut.
>
>There you go. I've always called it (and I've heard it -- but not from
>USAns) as Connect-i-ct.
>
> -- Craig --
However, my personal favorite is Lincoln. Why? Because here in
Israel there is a street named after him, and they actually add the
second Hebrew letter "lamed" (which gives the L sound), making
Israelis believe that the 5th US President was called Lin-col-lin.
(And the first president was called Vash-ing-ton.)
The Chocolate Lady
Davida Chazan <davida at jdc dot org dot il>
~*~*~*~*~*~
De chocolatei non est disputandum! Ergo, carpe chocolatum!
~*~*~*~*~*~
Support the Jayne Hitchcock HELP Fund:
http://www.geocities.com/~hitchcockc/story.html#fund
Orne Batmagoo
In article <352ea785...@news.bctel.ca>,
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca writes:
> On 10 Apr 1998 15:34:07 GMT, r...@darkstar.uwsa.edu.SPAM (Orne
> Batmagoo) wrote:
[I asked about the entries for "scotsemnail" and "scotnail" in the OED.]
> It seems perfectly clear to me. Surely it's an obsolete term for a
> small rivet, evidently used in the fabric of churches?
Yes, I got the basic meaning. It was the attestations I didn't understand.
What were those references, some kind of shipping manifests? And what do
all those little abbreviations actually _mean_? Seemed like Latin, and I
don't have a Latin dictionary. Hoped somebody who might actually know
something would be kind enough to respond, to help me quell my ignorance.
Even so, I'm still too lazy to type the whole thing here.
By the way, a1a51640, I like your new handle. The old one cusses too much.
--
Orne Batmagoo
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
>a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
>> Where do you get this stuff, Markus?
>
>By keeping my ears open. By the way, if you're going to use my name,
>which you're welcome to do, then will you please have the courtesy to
>tell me your own?
I really do sympathise with you on this "invisibility" business; it
seems to annoy some other people too. Still, surely it's not be hard
for you to regard me as you do your grandfather and simply address me
as "Sir"?
>> I have NEVER heard ANYONE say
>> "hampster".
>
>Most people I know (and they're not RP speakers) put a glottal stop
>after the [m]. This creates enough pressure to almost guarantee a
>plosive when the lips are opened for the [s], and the result is
>[h&m?pst@]. Indeed, someone recently asked me how to spell 'hamster'
>and was genuinely surprised at the lack of a 'p'.
>
>Now, for all I know, Canadian speakers say something more like
>[h&mst@r]. It may even be that your invisible friends in England in the
>early 1950s didn't put an invisible 'p' in 'hamster'. Things are
>different now.
>
You insist on describing your pronunciation as being some close
relative of RP, or indeed "modern" RP: let me assure you that there is
no "p" in hamster save that saved for annoying the owner. If there is
a "p" in your pronunciation then there been no change in cockney, save
in the self-promotion of its speakers.
Geoff Butler
Orne Batmagoo <r...@darkstar.uwsa.edu.SPAM> writes:
>
>But for silent letters, or otherwise "strange" -- and I mean that in a good
>way -- orthography, especially with regard to proper names, I think it nigh
>impossible to top Mother England.
>
>Featherstoneshaugh is pronounced "Fanshaw", Cholmondley is pronounced "Chumly",
>and then there are all those "-cesters" like Worcester, Glocester, and
>Leicester, pronounced "Wooster", "Gloster", and "Lester", respectively.
>[Note: I was going to omit the word "respectively", but in this case I put
>it in, since it now seems conceivable that an English name could be spelled
>as Sathferkneighbellimapsomeforth, and pronounced "Smith".]
A confirmatory check of all the available telephone directories yields
the following: "Featherstonehaugh" is a very rare name and everyone who
has it spells it "Fanshaw" or "Fanshawe"; "Cholmondley" is such a rare
name that nobody has it so I can't tell you how they spell it.
But the point about all these place names is that they came into being
getting on for a thousand years ago, before the days of spelling, when
data rates were measured in nanobaud, and in particular when only a few
people could write and the majority could let the pronunciation drift as
far as they liked without the constraint of knowing what it was supposed
to be.
-ler
Mark Odegard
[Posted, e-mailed] **Please note Spam Trap** On Mon, 13 Apr
1998 06:18:59 GMT, exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) in
<353eae33...@nntp.ix.netcom.com> wrote
|Invisible letters that are not substandard are the extra 't's that find
|their way into 'thirteen', 'fourteen', 'seventeen', 'eighteen', and
|'nineteen', which I most often pronounce ['T@rt ti:n], ['fOrt ti:n],
|['sEv@nt ti:n], ['Eit ti:n], and ['nAint ti:n] ('THIRT teen', 'FORT
|teen', 'SEVENT teen', 'EIGHT teen', and 'NIGHNT teen', where 'nighnt'
|rhymes with 'pint').
I think the first /t/ in Bob's transcriptions would be better as
/*/ (=IPA fishook r); this represents the flap you hear in the
pairs ladder/latter, or petal/pedal.
Actually, I think the correct symbol would be /t./. Using Evan
Kirshenbaum's notation found at
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan_Kirshenbaum/IPA/faq.html
I might have this wrong (correction invited), but I think /t./
represents, as Evan has it, a voiceless retroflex stop:
{vls,rfx,stp} /t./ U+0288 LATIN SMALL LETTER T RETROFLEX HOOK
In Bob's examples, the first 't' is what you hear as the final
sound in words like 'pat', 'pot', 'pit'. The tongue simply stops
when it hits the ridge behind the upper teeth. The second 't' in
each of Bob's examples are of the word-initial variety heard in
words like 'tot', 'tat'; the tongue moves from the ridge behind
the upper teeth to open the sound, moving into the vowel, and
sometimes, making a slight "click" of the sort you hear when
trying articulate a word-final t in a word like 'text'.
--
Mark Odegard. (descape to email)
Emailed copies of responses are very much appreciated.
Gary Williams, Business Services Accounting
In article <3531410b...@news.tcp.co.uk>, lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk
(Markus Laker) writes:
>Most people I know (and they're not RP speakers) put a glottal stop
>after the [m]. This creates enough pressure to almost guarantee a
>plosive when the lips are opened for the [s], and the result is
>[h&m?pst@]. Indeed, someone recently asked me how to spell 'hamster'
>and was genuinely surprised at the lack of a 'p'.
I sit here muttering to myself "hamster, hamster, hamster...." hoping no one
walks in and thinks, "What an unusual mantra."
I _think_ that it gets pronounced both with and without the intrusive /p/ in my
current speech community, in the one in which I grew up, and in my own
idiolect. But it is hard to say, for certain; I think it is so allophonic as
for its presence or absence hardly to be noticed.
At least by my tin ear.
Gary Williams
WILL...@AHEC.EDU
Markus Laker
exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
> The jury still seems to be out on how pervasive is the invisible 'p' in
> 'hamster'. (I, for one, don't have it.)
So far it's been reported by the Cheesmonds and me (all in England, I
think) and not by you, Larry Philips or a1a (all in the US or Canada).
That suggests a pattern. The [&] in a British 'hamster' is very short
-- shorter, I suspect, than an American speaker would make it. And I've
already noted that 'hamstring' has no invisible 'p'. The [&] in a
British 'hamstring' is longer than the one in 'hamster'. I think we
need a research grant to sort it all out.
> But while that matter is being decided, there are a few other invisible
> letters that need to be recognized.
>
> One is whatever invisible letter goes with the invisible schwa in the
> substandard pronunciation ['&T@li:t] ('ATHaleet'). Another is the
> invisible letter that finds its substandard way into 'aperture',
> producing ['&p@r@tS@r] ('APerachur'), and which all too often results in
> the misspelling 'aperature'.
I don't say these and wouldn't expect to hear them.
> Invisible letters that are not substandard are the extra 't's that find
> their way into 'thirteen', 'fourteen', 'seventeen', 'eighteen', and
> 'nineteen', which I most often pronounce ['T@rt ti:n], ['fOrt ti:n],
> ['sEv@nt ti:n], ['Eit ti:n], and ['nAint ti:n] ('THIRT teen', 'FORT
> teen', 'SEVENT teen', 'EIGHT teen', and 'NIGHNT teen', where 'nightnt'
> rhymes with 'pint').
I'm guessing that, in each pair, the second [t] is exploded but the
first one isn't, as in 'cat tail'. In that case, if I've got my ASCII
IPA right, a closer (i.e. more detailed) transcription might be
['T@rt t<h>i:n], ['fOrt t<h>i:n]. Could it even be ['T@r? t<h>i:n],
['fOr? t<h>i:n]?
In any case, these pronunciations (or their non-rhotic equivalents) are
now dialectal in Britain. I associate them with older people, so
perhaps they used to be more widespread than they are now.
Markus Laker
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:50:57 GMT, lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus
> Laker) wrote:
>
> >By the way, if you're going to use my name,
> >which you're welcome to do, then will you please have the courtesy to
> >tell me your own?
> I really do sympathise with you on this "invisibility" business; it
> seems to annoy some other people too.
Then why persist with it?
> Still, surely it's not be hard
> for you to regard me as you do your grandfather and simply address me
> as "Sir"?
For all sorts of reasons, that's no more appealing than 'a1a51640'. How
about Clarence? Yes, that seems to fit. 'Clarence' you shall be until
you reveal your real name, at which point I'll use that instead. But
this exchange invites an ObAUE:
Are there any English-speaking communities where senior family members
are still called 'Sir' or 'Madam' or 'Ma'am'? Let's ignore special
cases, such as royalty.
> >> I have NEVER heard ANYONE say
> >> "hampster".
> >Most people I know (and they're not RP speakers) put a glottal stop
> >after the [m]. This creates enough pressure to almost guarantee a
> >plosive when the lips are opened for the [s], and the result is
> >[h&m?pst@]. Indeed, someone recently asked me how to spell 'hamster'
> >and was genuinely surprised at the lack of a 'p'.
> You insist on describing your pronunciation as being some close
> relative of RP, or indeed "modern" RP: let me assure you that there is
> no "p" in hamster save that saved for annoying the owner.
Do pay attention, Clarence. I've just said that the people who say
['h&mpst@] are not RP speakers.
> If there is
> a "p" in your pronunciation then there been no change in cockney, save
> in the self-promotion of its speakers.
Anyone who was at the recent a.u.e symposium in London can tell you
whether I have a Cockney accent or not. Let's leave that judgment call
to people who have actually heard me speak, shall we?
Lee Rudolph
lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) writes:
>exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>
>> The jury still seems to be out on how pervasive is the invisible 'p' in
>> 'hamster'. (I, for one, don't have it.)
>
>So far it's been reported by the Cheesmonds and me (all in England, I
>think) and not by you, Larry Philips or a1a (all in the US or Canada).
Well, here am I, raised in Ohio, resident of Massachusetts going on 29
years, and pronouncing a "p" in "hamster" as long as I can remember.
>That suggests a pattern. The [&] in a British 'hamster' is very short
>-- shorter, I suspect, than an American speaker would make it. And I've
>already noted that 'hamstring' has no invisible 'p'. The [&] in a
>British 'hamstring' is longer than the one in 'hamster'. I think we
>need a research grant to sort it all out.
For me, the salient difference is that "hamster" has a decided accent
on the first syllable, whereas "hamstring" has two equally stressed
syllables.
Lee Rudolph
John Nurick
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:05:50 GMT, lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk
(Markus Laker) wrote:
[Clarence wrote:]
>> You insist on describing your pronunciation as being some close
>> relative of RP, or indeed "modern" RP: let me assure you that there is
>> no "p" in hamster save that saved for annoying the owner.
>Do pay attention, Clarence. I've just said that the people who say
>['h&mpst@] are not RP speakers.
>> If there is
>> a "p" in your pronunciation then there been no change in cockney, save
>> in the self-promotion of its speakers.
>Anyone who was at the recent a.u.e symposium in London can tell you
>whether I have a Cockney accent or not. Let's leave that judgment call
>to people who have actually heard me speak, shall we?
I attest that Markus showed no sign of a Cockney accent that
afternoon (although I don't recall the discussion turning to
hamsters).
Like Gary Williams, I have been muttering "hamster hampster
hamster" to myself and have concluded that when I'm talking
carefully I say ['h&mst@] but when I'm thinking about something
else that [p] tends to intrude. I've certainly heard other
people say ['h&mpst@] (possibly even verging on ['Empst@]) but
don't think it's as nearly universal as Markus has suggested.
In another post, Lee Rudolph suggests that the comparatively
even stress on the two syllables of "hamstring" explains why
that word doesn't tend to get an intrusive [p] the way
"hamsters" do. Sounds right to me.
John
To e-mail me, drop clanger from address.
Gary Williams, Business Services Accounting
In article <35373ee3...@news.tcp.co.uk>, lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk
(Markus Laker) writes:
>Are there any English-speaking communities where senior family members
>are still called 'Sir' or 'Madam' or 'Ma'am'? Let's ignore special
>cases, such as royalty.
About fifteen years ago, I heard a couple of friends of my daughters address
their father as "Sir". They would have been about ten years old at the time,
and I do not know if the behavior persisted into adolescence or beyond. This
family was from Texas, and I have been given to understand that the "Sir" and
"Ma'am" forms of address to parents survive in deeper parts of the American
South.
Gary Williams
WILL...@AHEC.EDU
K. Edgcombe
>lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) writes:
>
>>exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>>
>>> The jury still seems to be out on how pervasive is the invisible 'p' in
>>> 'hamster'. (I, for one, don't have it.)
>>
>>So far it's been reported by the Cheesmonds and me (all in England, I
>>think) and not by you, Larry Philips or a1a (all in the US or Canada).
>
hamster, hamster" to ourselves? A pleasing thought.
The upshot for me is that I do pronounce the invisible "p", albeit so
discreetly that I can hardly hear myself doing it.
Incidentally, I can confirm that Markus doesn't have a cockney accent. I do,
but only as a second language developed in self-defence in childhood. Markus,
or Mike, may care to confirm that I don't habitually use it.
Katy
Simon R. Hughes
Thus Spake lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker):
> Anyone who was at the recent a.u.e symposium in London can tell you
> whether I have a Cockney accent or not. Let's leave that judgment call
> to people who have actually heard me speak, shall we?
The question is whether you were born in Bow, Markus. If not, your
accent cannot be Cockney, no matter how similar it is.
(Clarence is a good choice, and should annoy the life out of Clarence
until s/he admits to owning a name, or invents a pseudonym.)
Simon R. Hughes
mailto:shu...@geocities.com
(Mail not sent directly to the above address will be deleted without being read.)
Bob Cunningham
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:05:52 GMT, lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus
Laker) said:
>exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
[ . . . ]
>> Invisible letters that are not substandard are the extra 't's that find
>> their way into 'thirteen', 'fourteen', 'seventeen', 'eighteen', and
>> 'nineteen', which I most often pronounce ['T@rt ti:n], ['fOrt ti:n],
>> ['sEv@nt ti:n], ['Eit ti:n], and ['nAint ti:n] ('THIRT teen', 'FORT
>> teen', 'SEVENT teen', 'EIGHT teen', and 'NIGHNT teen', where 'nighnt'
>> rhymes with 'pint').
>I'm guessing that, in each pair, the second [t] is exploded but the
>first one isn't, as in 'cat tail'. In that case, if I've got my ASCII
>IPA right, a closer (i.e. more detailed) transcription might be
>['T@rt t<h>i:n], ['fOrt t<h>i:n]. Could it even be ['T@r? t<h>i:n],
>['fOr? t<h>i:n]?
Mark Odegard seems to have described the articulation exactly as I do
it. I didn't know I did it that way till he explained it.
When I say 'time', the 't' is pronounced by raising the tip of my tongue
to the alveolar ridge, closing the air passage; the air is then released
explosively while the tongue tip is lowered. When I say 'eighteen' I
raise my tongue to the alveolar ridge and close the air passage after
the 'n'. I can hold that position indefinitely. I lower the tongue tip
and release air explosively at the beginning of 'teen'.
I think it would be correct to describe it as dividing the normal
pronunciation of 't' into two pieces and putting one piece after the
'eigh' and the other piece before the 'teen'.
MWCD10 shows the pronunciation with an extra 't', though. Neither the
Random House nor Webster's New World dictionaries show it. NSOED/93
doesn't recognize the different pronunciation in any way.
The 1993 Chambers has an optional pronunciation of 'eighteen' with an
apostrophe after the 'a' sound. The explanation of the apostrophe in
the pronunciation guide doesn't seem to explain satisfactorily what it
means in the pronunciation of 'eighteen'.
>In any case, these pronunciations (or their non-rhotic equivalents) are
>now dialectal in Britain. I associate them with older people, so
>perhaps they used to be more widespread than they are now.
For all I know, that may be true in the US, also. I'll try to catch
some of my grandchildren saying 'eighteen' and report back.
P&DSchultz
> > I have NEVER heard ANYONE say
> > "hampster".
>
> Most people I know (and they're not RP speakers) put a glottal stop
> after the [m]. This creates enough pressure to almost guarantee a
> plosive when the lips are opened for the [s], and the result is
> [h&m?pst@]. Indeed, someone recently asked me how to spell 'hamster'
> and was genuinely surprised at the lack of a 'p'.
I (an American) agree. So does my wife. We both put a "P" in it,
and we believe that those who claim they don't only THINK they
don't, but actually do.
//P. Schultz
*The* Didaskalos
Larry Phillips <lar...@rogers.wave.ca> wrote to and
alt.usage.english:
== Orne Batmagoo wrote:
==
== > These are probably of interest only to geography freaks, but I will
== > add Mackinac, an island in Michigan (pronounced "Mackinaw"), and the
== > Willamette River valley in Oregon (pronounced "Will-AM-it").
==
== I am reminded of the name 'Waco', which is pronounced 'way-co' if you
== mean the town in Texas, and 'wack-o' (to rhyme with tobacco) if you
== mean aircraft.
==
Al-BAN-y Georgia.
It's become so fashionable to pronoune it ALL-bun-ee (as in the New
York city) today that some of the locals are even starting to
mispronounce it. But there's still still hope. I heard Al-BAN-y
recently on TV.
<><><><><><><><><><><><>
Ye shall know the truth -- *The* Didaskalos
http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/village/1360
http://www.glinn.com/pink
<><><><><><><><><><><><>
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
>Thus Spake lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker):
>
>> Anyone who was at the recent a.u.e symposium in London can tell you
>> whether I have a Cockney accent or not. Let's leave that judgment call
>> to people who have actually heard me speak, shall we?
>
>The question is whether you were born in Bow, Markus. If not, your
>accent cannot be Cockney, no matter how similar it is.
>
>(Clarence is a good choice, and should annoy the life out of Clarence
>until s/he admits to owning a name, or invents a pseudonym.)
>
Well, there was a Duke of Clarence widely suspected of being Jack the
Ripper. I do not think either of you mean *that* so feel free to use
the name if you wish to. It's as good as Claude I suppose.
Markus said he puts a P in hamster, that his cockney pals do, so what
am I to think? As for the cockney "qualification", surely it's a
catch-all word used by many to specify non-standard English of the
general area of Lunnon. Ought I to use a capital, as you and some
others do? <g>
Paul and Doreen Cheesmond
There's an Albany near Perth in Oz and I was never sure whether to say
All-b@n-ee or Al-b@n-ee or etc.
What about ball-c@n-ee and bal-c@n-ee?
D.
Donna Richoux
N.Mitchum <HINTS...@mail.lafn.org> wrote:
> You cut the final sentence of my reply, the one explaining why I
> was surprised: "I'd have thought any mention of either would be
> prefaced by a short line of explanation, which should include the
> word "Arkansas." Mr. Welch said he knew all about these matters
> through his readings; I only wondered why he had not heard the
> name of the state spoken on the broadcast news.
Two points. It really is true that news announcers, abroad, devote
almost no time to domestic US matters. There has to be a major massacre
to insure air time. Last month I mentioned the name Monica Lewinsky to
the (Dutch) librarian of my local town and saw not the slightest
recognition.
Second, even if news announcers in Singapore say "Arkansas," there is no
guarantee it will come out the same as the US pronunciation of
"Arkansas." For well-known names, they may have their own traditional
name (the same as we have Rome and Munich), and for lesser known names,
they may blunder through based on their phonetical rules. So, even if
the original person *had* heard "Arkansas" on the news, it may not have
been correct or even consistent from one time to the next. Think of how
US announcers would handle the name of some province in Bangladesh.
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
Skitt
P&DSchultz wrote in message <3532A9...@erols.com>...
>Markus Laker wrote:
>>
>> Most people I know (and they're not RP speakers) put a glottal stop
>> after the [m]. This creates enough pressure to almost guarantee a
>> plosive when the lips are opened for the [s], and the result is
>> [h&m?pst@]. Indeed, someone recently asked me how to spell
'hamster'
>> and was genuinely surprised at the lack of a 'p'.
>
>I (an American) agree. So does my wife. We both put a "P" in it,
>and we believe that those who claim they don't only THINK they
>don't, but actually do.
I do not! Absolutely not! No way! There's no P in the transition from
the M to S.
--
Skitt http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/5537/
Avi.Ja...@pbdir.com
In article <35323885...@news2.means.net>,
ode...@means.netscape (delete the scape in netscape) wrote:
>
> [Posted, e-mailed] **Please note Spam Trap** On Mon, 13 Apr
> 1998 06:18:59 GMT, exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) in
> <353eae33...@nntp.ix.netcom.com> wrote
>
> |their way into 'thirteen', 'fourteen', 'seventeen', 'eighteen', and
> |'nineteen',
Why are these "not substandard" (or, to be kinder, why are they not
"non-standard")? I know of no dictionary which lists these "double t"
pronunciations as standard.
> |which I most often pronounce ['T@rt ti:n], ['fOrt ti:n],
> |['sEv@nt ti:n], ['Eit ti:n], and ['nAint ti:n] ('THIRT teen', 'FORT
> |teen', 'SEVENT teen', 'EIGHT teen', and 'NIGHNT teen', where 'nighnt'
> |rhymes with 'pint').
>
> I think the first /t/ in Bob's transcriptions would be better as
> /*/ (=IPA fishook r); this represents the flap you hear in the
> pairs ladder/latter, or petal/pedal.
It's hard to guess who said what in Mark's article. If I have this right,
everything in Mark's posting -- with the exception of the passage quoted from
Bob at the beginning -- is Mark's own contribution. If I have this wrong, I
offer my sincerest apologies.
With the utmost respect and not the skimpiest shadow of any personal offense
intended, I believe readers should exercise extreme care in posting their
"theories" about phonetic transcription or articulatory phonetic analysis.
There are, after all, many, many readers who lurk in these halls for the
express purpose of gleaning knowledge, and reading conjecture or
misinformation served up as science will only further their confusion.
Imagine, if you would, a newsgroup called alt.correct.driving, in which
someone wrote: "I think the best thing to do when you see a yellow light from
half a block away is speed up so you just might make it to the other side of
the intersection in time", or "I think 'Left Lane Must Turn Left' means you
should keep moving into a left turn even if the light is red". If these guys
don't know how to drive or can't understand the road signs, they shouldn't be
theorizing for others.
Mark's posting offers three separate and unconnected explanations for the
first t in Bob's "teen" words. The first two are totally off the mark; the
third is just about right, though slightly incomplete.
There is, of course, no connection at all between the (voiceless!)
glottalized t in Bob's examples, and the voiced flap in the American "petal"
or the old-style RP "very". Attempting to pronounce the word "eighteen" with
the voiced flap in the spot where Bob indicates his first t, would produce an
utterance sounding very much like a sloppy <aid a teen>.
>
> Actually, I think the correct symbol would be /t./. Using Evan
> Kirshenbaum's notation found at
>
> http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan_Kirshenbaum/IPA/faq.html
>
> I might have this wrong (correction invited),
Correction respectfully submitted. There is no retroflex t in English
(except, perhaps, in India); this is the sound you hear on the end of the
Swedish <bord>. It has the tongue curled back so that the BOTTOM of the tip
of the tongue is touching the alveolar ridge. That CERTAINLY doesn't happen
in any American pronunciation I can think of.
> but I think /t./
> represents, as Evan has it, a voiceless retroflex stop:
>
> {vls,rfx,stp} /t./ U+0288 LATIN SMALL LETTER T RETROFLEX HOOK
>
> In Bob's examples, the first 't' is what you hear as the final
> sound in words like 'pat', 'pot', 'pit'. The tongue simply stops
> when it hits the ridge behind the upper teeth.
Correct. And as a secondary articulation, the glottis helps out by cutting
off the supply of air.
> The second 't' in
> each of Bob's examples are of the word-initial variety heard in
> words like 'tot', 'tat'; the tongue moves from the ridge behind
> the upper teeth to open the sound, moving into the vowel, and
> sometimes, making a slight "click" of the sort you hear when
> trying articulate a word-final t in a word like 'text'.
Again, correct. The ridge is called the alveolar ridge, and the "click" is
called aspiration.
Mark, if my present posting comes off just a bit grumpier than usual, again:
no offense intended. It's 7 in the morning with no coffee in sight!.
--
Avi Jacobson, email: Avi.Ja...@pbdir.com | When an idea is
or: Av...@amdocs.com | wanting, a word
| can always be found
Opinions are those of the poster, =NOT= of | to take its place.
Amdocs, Inc. or Pacific Bell Directory. | -- Goethe
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
John Holmes
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca wrote in message
<352f9e0a...@news.bctel.ca>...
>On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:32:31 GMT, exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob
>Cunningham) wrote:
>
>>On 10 Apr 1998 08:46:34 EDT, brow...@concentric.net (Stan Brown)
said:
>>>*Silent* letters occur in many, many English words, but invisible
letters
>>>only in those written with lemon juice.
>>
>>How about the invisible 'p' in 'comfortable' and 'something'?
>>
>There is a visible 'p' in sump thing, but we usually say 'handle'.
Maybe you're just a crank case.
Regards,
John.
hol...@smart.net.au
email copies of any replies would be appreciated.
SLHinton17
P. & D. SZchuktz wrote:
>I (an American) agree. So does my wife. We both put a "P" in it,
>and we believe that those who claim they don't only THINK they
>don't, but actually do.
Let's have a poll! I , another American, born in Oklahoma, reared in East
Texas with a Texas mother and a Georgia father, NEVER put a "p" or a glottal
stop in "hamster. " Neither does my wife, born and raised in Souhern Califonia
with parents from Manitoba, Canada. Nor do we put anything at all between the
"m" and the "s" in "Amsterdam." Maybe the Schuiltzes only THINK they put a "p"
in there, but really don't!
Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA
Thomas Schenk
The poll has already been taken by the lexicographers at
Merriam-Webster, and their results show that in the US an intrusive
*(p)* may occur in the word *hamster*. Would a survey of a.u.e.
habitues somehow invalidate their findings? (Incidentally, MW also
generously gives an intrusive *(p)* to the pronunciation of words
"teamster" and "Amsterdam".)
Tom
--
*******************
Dr Thomas M Schenk
Laguna Beach, California
Markus Laker
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:05:46 GMT, shu...@geocities.com (Simon R.
Hughes) wrote:
> >The question is whether you were born in Bow, Markus. If not, your
> >accent cannot be Cockney, no matter how similar it is.
Nice one. No; I was born in Croydon, though I shudder to admit it.
> Well, there was a Duke of Clarence widely suspected of being Jack the
> Ripper. I do not think either of you mean *that* so feel free to use
> the name if you wish to. It's as good as Claude I suppose.
Was 'Claude' picked at random, or is that your actual name? I don't
mean to labour a point, but I did promise to use your real name as soon
as you revealed it.
> Markus said he puts a P in hamster, that his cockney pals do, so what
> am I to think?
You need to understand that there are more accents in England than just
RP and Cockney. My accent is close to RP and nowhere near Cockney.
Most people around me speak nothing like either. On a straight line
between RP and Cockney, where would you put Cornish? Mancunian?
Liverpudlian? Scouse?
> As for the cockney "qualification", surely it's a
> catch-all word used by many to specify non-standard English of the
> general area of Lunnon.
Well, no, it isn't. It describes the accent of a small and well defined
area near the middle of London. Cockney renders 'barrow' as ['b&r@],
'Bethnal Green' as ['bEfnUw gri:n], 'Harry' as ['&ri] and 'south' as
[s&:f]. That simply isn't true of what you call the 'non-standard
English of the general area of Lunnon'.
> Ought I to use a capital, as you and some
> others do? <g>
The nearest dictionary doesn't. I do, for consistency with other names
given to inhabitants of other regions.
Markus Laker
ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe) wrote:
> Incidentally, I can confirm that Markus doesn't have a cockney accent.
Thanks, Katy.
> I do,
> but only as a second language developed in self-defence in childhood. Markus,
> or Mike, may care to confirm that I don't habitually use it.
The accent I associate with you is a delightful cut-glass Cambridge RP.
Simon R. Hughes
Thus Spake a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca:
> On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:05:46 GMT, shu...@geocities.com (Simon R.
> Hughes) wrote:
>
> >Thus Spake lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker):
> >
> >> Anyone who was at the recent a.u.e symposium in London can tell you
> >> whether I have a Cockney accent or not. Let's leave that judgment call
> >> to people who have actually heard me speak, shall we?
> >
> >The question is whether you were born in Bow, Markus. If not, your
> >accent cannot be Cockney, no matter how similar it is.
> >
>
> Markus said he puts a P in hamster, that his cockney pals do, so what
> am I to think? As for the cockney "qualification", surely it's a
> catch-all word used by many to specify non-standard English of the
> general area of Lunnon. Ought I to use a capital, as you and some
> others do? <g>
The dictionary tells me that cockney should not be capitalised, and
that the word refers to just another inhabitant of London; I feel that
the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary has failed me this time. My
grandmother was a Cockney (capitalised as "Londoner", etc. are) --
born within earshot of Bow Bells -- and she vehemently defended that
definition of the word.
Gary Williams, Business Services Accounting
In article <1d7f94z.rpi...@p007.hlm.euronet.nl>, tr...@euronet.nl
(Donna Richoux) writes:
> So, even if the original person *had* heard "Arkansas" on the news, it may
> not have been correct or even consistent from one time to the next. Think of
> how US announcers would handle the name of some province in Bangladesh.
And remember what _careful_ pronunciation guides the wire services gave to
those Vietnamese place names that started with "Phuoc".
Gary Williams
WILL...@AHEC.EDU
Gary Williams, Business Services Accounting
In article <35339760...@ix.netcom.com>, Thomas Schenk
<tmsc...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>The poll has already been taken by the lexicographers at
>Merriam-Webster, and their results show that in the US an intrusive
>*(p)* may occur in the word *hamster*. Would a survey of a.u.e.
>habitues somehow invalidate their findings?
Well, of _course_ it would; we _are_, after all, the ultimate authorities, and
it's about time speakers of English started recognizing that fact.
But what has actually happened is that, if the operative word is "may", then
our a.u.e. survey has already authoritatively confirmed the work of the earnest
young folks at MW.
Gary Williams
WILL...@AHECAS.AHEC.EDU
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
>
>a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca wrote in message
><352f9e0a...@news.bctel.ca>...
>>On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:32:31 GMT, exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob
>>Cunningham) wrote:
>>
>>>On 10 Apr 1998 08:46:34 EDT, brow...@concentric.net (Stan Brown)
>said:
>>>>*Silent* letters occur in many, many English words, but invisible
>letters
>>>>only in those written with lemon juice.
>>>
>>>How about the invisible 'p' in 'comfortable' and 'something'?
>>>
>>There is a visible 'p' in sump thing, but we usually say 'handle'.
>
>Maybe you're just a crank case.
>
That's pretty dippy too.
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
On 14 Apr 1998 16:23:03 GMT, slhin...@aol.com (SLHinton17) wrote:
>P. & D. SZchuktz wrote:
>>I (an American) agree. So does my wife. We both put a "P" in it,
>>and we believe that those who claim they don't only THINK they
>>don't, but actually do.
>*******************************
>Let's have a poll! I , another American, born in Oklahoma, reared in East
>Texas with a Texas mother and a Georgia father, NEVER put a "p" or a glottal
>stop in "hamster. " Neither does my wife, born and raised in Souhern Califonia
>with parents from Manitoba, Canada. Nor do we put anything at all between the
>"m" and the "s" in "Amsterdam." Maybe the Schuiltzes only THINK they put a "p"
>in there, but really don't!
>
I personally believe that the invisible "p" is, like the cockney
invisible 'r", simply a manifestation of sloppy enunciation. It has
nothing to do with (as desperately suggested) geography.
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
>
>The dictionary tells me that cockney should not be capitalised, and
>that the word refers to just another inhabitant of London; I feel that
>the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary has failed me this time. My
>grandmother was a Cockney (capitalised as "Londoner", etc. are) --
>born within earshot of Bow Bells -- and she vehemently defended that
>definition of the word.
>
Good for her! But why did she have to be "vehement"? She was not,
after all, claiming to speak "modern" RP.
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:38:16 GMT, lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus
Laker) wrote about capitalising 'cockney'
>The nearest dictionary doesn't. I do, for consistency with other names
>given to inhabitants of other regions.
>
Despair not: sooner or later you will find some kindred all-embracing
he's version. After all, you have found more than one who may not "paw
paw haws" but says you ought to pronounce the phrase thus. <g>
N Mitchum
tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
-----
>Two points. It really is true that news announcers, abroad, devote
>.....
And a good point it is. My perspective is a little skewed, since
I listen to and watch international news originating both here and
abroad. But my basic surprise comes from the suggestion that
Arkansas is never mentioned in foreign news, since so many of
Clinton's problems have come from his home state. I wouldn't have
thought this qualified as "domestic" news. If Tony Blair had been
mayor of Norwich, let's say, and if his government were daily
threatened by Conservatives accusing him of cleaning out the city
treasury, I imagine we'd have a good chance of hearing the British
pronunciation of Norwich. But perhaps I'm being unrealistic.
-----
>Second, even if news announcers in Singapore say "Arkansas," there is
no
>guarantee it will come out the same as the US pronunciation of
>"Arkansas." [...] So, even if
>the original person *had* heard "Arkansas" on the news, it may not have
>been correct or even consistent from one time to the next. [...]
>....
Another good point, and perhaps a better one. News readers may
furnish the name, but that doesn't mean they feel obliged to
pronounce it correctly.
---NM
John Nurick
>There's an Albany near Perth in Oz and I was never sure whether to say
>All-b@n-ee or Al-b@n-ee or etc.
The locals pronounce it as in "Al", not "all": /'&lb@ni/. The
second syllable may be given almost full value (making a
dactylic /'&lb&ni/) or be almost lost (something like /'&lbni/).
Yuno Hu
----------
Yes, yes, quite sloppy, like dropping the 'n' from the indefinite article
and reducing the vowel to a schwa! *an* manifestation! Let's work on that
for starters, then we can worry about the intrusive 'p's.
David McMurray
[posted and e-mailed]
<Avi.Ja...@pbdir.com> wrote:
> In article <35323885...@news2.means.net>,
> ode...@means.netscape (delete the scape in netscape) wrote:
> > [Posted, e-mailed] **Please note Spam Trap** On Mon, 13 Apr
> > 1998 06:18:59 GMT, exw...@ix.netcom.com (Bob Cunningham) in
> > <353eae33...@nntp.ix.netcom.com> wrote
> >
> > |Invisible letters that are not substandard are the extra 't's that find
> > |their way into 'thirteen', 'fourteen', 'seventeen', 'eighteen', and
> > |'nineteen',
>
> Why are these "not substandard" (or, to be kinder, why are they not
> "non-standard")? I know of no dictionary which lists these "double t"
> pronunciations as standard.
The "double t" pronunciation of "thirteen", "fourteen", and "eighteen"
(with the two syllables in each receiving equal stress) is the only one
listed in the Gage Canadian Dictionary and is standard in Canadian
English. I don't use or hear it in "seventeen" and "nineteen" however.
[snip]
--
David
pdraper
Simon R. Hughes <shu...@geocities.com> wrote in article
<35368008...@news1.telia.com>...
> Thus Spake lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker):
>
> > Anyone who was at the recent a.u.e symposium in London can tell you
> > whether I have a Cockney accent or not. Let's leave that judgment
call
> > to people who have actually heard me speak, shall we?
>
> The question is whether you were born in Bow, Markus. If not, your
> accent cannot be Cockney, no matter how similar it is.
>
No, traditionally it's whether a person was born within the sound of Bow
bell ie. the bells of St. Mary-le-Bow (Bone?) in the City. As you can
barely hear them across the street for traffic noise this has been amended
since the war. I believe the definition of a Cockney is a person born
within 10 miles of a line SW-NW through the centre of London. For the
record, I was born in Stratford (Stratteford atte Bow) in 1956 and raised
in Bethnal Green and the Isle of Dogs. When I listen I find myself putting
a 'p' into words such as 'hamster'.
--
Paul Draper
pdr...@baig.co.uk
0171 369 2754
Mike Barnes
In alt.usage.english, N Mitchum <KSG...@prodigy.com> spake thuswise:
>tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
>-----
>>Two points. It really is true that news announcers, abroad, devote
>>almost no time to domestic US matters. [...]
>>.....
>
>And a good point it is. My perspective is a little skewed, since
>I listen to and watch international news originating both here and
>abroad. But my basic surprise comes from the suggestion that
>Arkansas is never mentioned in foreign news, since so many of
>Clinton's problems have come from his home state. I wouldn't have
>thought this qualified as "domestic" news.
Actually Donna didn't say "never". Arkansas *is* sometimes mentioned in
news reports in this country, and I would guess in many others also.
But the scandal is an entirely (US) domestic matter, from my viewpoint
at least. It affects only Clinton's standing with the American people,
and has no international implications that I can think of.
It's also worth pointing out that while the scandal might be vaguely
interesting to people in other countries, its geographical origin would
be of much less interest. The main reason being that most people
outside the USA haven't the foggiest idea where Arkansas is (although
many would know that it's somewhere in the USA), and couldn't care less.
So there's not much point in mentioning it in the news.
--
-- Mike Barnes, Stockport, England.
-- If you post a response to Usenet, please *don't* send me a copy by e-mail.
Ross Howard
On 14 Apr 1998 20:09:41 GMT, KSG...@prodigy.com (N Mitchum) wrote:
>News readers may furnish the name, but that doesn't mean they feel
>obliged to pronounce it correctly.
Isn't this true everywhere? "Correct" pronunciation is what's most
acceptable to the hearers of a word, not to its originators. I'd no
more expect an American newsreader to call the Birmingham in the
English Midlands [b@:miNg@m] than I'd expect a British newsreader to
call its Alabama counterpart [b@:rmINh&m]. Some foreign (and in
Singapore, American is foreign) proper names just sound silly if
pronounced as they are in their country of origin. Ask anyone who
drives a "Mercedes" -- do they say it the German way or the original
Spanish way? No, they almost certainly avoid sounding like a
pretentious prat and stick to the "incorrect" English way.
Ross Howard
**************************************
There's a number in my e-mail address.
Subtract four from it to reply.
**************************************
DK
OK, Sam! Here's my poll response: I DO put sort of a p sound in
hamster, as does my husband, but neither of us does so in
Amsterdam (no pun intended). Why we put it into
hamster--especially as I was raised by people who apparently
don't--I cannot say, but neither of us likes one in "something".
--Katrina
SLHinton17 wrote in message
<199804141623...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>P. & D. SZchuktz wrote:
>>I (an American) agree. So does my wife. We both put a "P" in
it,
>>and we believe that those who claim they don't only THINK they
>>don't, but actually do.
>*******************************
>Let's have a poll! I , another American, born in Oklahoma,
reared in East
>Texas with a Texas mother and a Georgia father, NEVER put a "p"
or a glottal
>stop in "hamster. " Neither does my wife, born and raised in
Souhern Califonia
>with parents from Manitoba, Canada. Nor do we put anything at
all between the
>"m" and the "s" in "Amsterdam." Maybe the Schuiltzes only THINK
they put a "p"
>in there, but really don't!
>
DK
I'm going off on a tangent with this one. I was raised a speaker
of West Coast American English, and I pronounce that extra t in
"thirteen" so that it sounds like "thirt-teen", and I do so also
with all of the words below--except seventeen. I can't make that
"sevent-teen" no matter how hard I try. "Seven-teen" it is, and
for me shall remain. Actually, that's true for "nine-teen" for me
as well. Is this possibly regional?
--Katrina
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:07:53 -0700, "Yuno Hu" <n...@this.address.com>
wrote: a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>>I personally believe that the invisible "p" is, like the cockney
>>invisible 'r", simply a manifestation of sloppy enunciation. It has
>>nothing to do with (as desperately suggested) geography.
>
>Yes, yes, quite sloppy, like dropping the 'n' from the indefinite article
>and reducing the vowel to a schwa! *an* manifestation! Let's work on that
>for starters, then we can worry about the intrusive 'p's.
>
George BernARD Schwa left that out of his manifesto for some reason.
Bob Cunningham
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:05:36 -0700, Thomas Schenk
<tmsc...@ix.netcom.com> said:
[ . . . ]
>> Let's have a poll! I , another American, born in Oklahoma, reared in East
>> Texas with a Texas mother and a Georgia father, NEVER put a "p" or a glottal
>> stop in "hamster. " Neither does my wife, born and raised in Souhern Califonia
>> with parents from Manitoba, Canada. Nor do we put anything at all between the
>> "m" and the "s" in "Amsterdam." Maybe the Schuiltzes only THINK they put a "p"
>> in there, but really don't!
>The poll has already been taken by the lexicographers at
>Merriam-Webster, and their results show that in the US an intrusive
>*(p)* may occur in the word *hamster*. Would a survey of a.u.e.
>habitues somehow invalidate their findings?
An a.u.e poll could greatly add to their findings by providing
information about regional variation.
Speaking of regional variation, I find it strange that the entry for
'comfortable' in _Dictionary of American Regional English_ makes no
mention of the apparent 'p' sound, even though it discusses a few
different pronunciations.
I now think that the sound is not really a 'p'. The consonant 'f' is
produced by closing the lips, then opening them with a release of air.
I find that when I say 'comfortable' I close my lips at the end of the
first syllable ('com'), then open them and release the air at the
beginning of the next syllable. The lip closure sounds something like a
'p', but it's really only the first part of the articulation of 'f'. I
think that people who don't have the apparent 'p' sound are merely
putting both parts of the 'f' at the beginning of the second syllable.
Apparently the only difference between a 'p' and an 'f' is that for the
'p' the air is released plosively when the lips open, while for the 'f'
it's released more gradually.
Curtis Cameron
Bob Cunningham wrote:
>
> I now think that the sound is not really a 'p'. The consonant 'f' is
> produced by closing the lips, then opening them with a release of air.
> I find that when I say 'comfortable' I close my lips at the end of the
> first syllable ('com'), then open them and release the air at the
> beginning of the next syllable.
> Apparently the only difference between a 'p' and an 'f' is that for the
> 'p' the air is released plosively when the lips open, while for the 'f'
> it's released more gradually.
Do you really close your lips when pronouncing an "f"? I thought that
the standard way was to place the lower lip against the edge of the
upper teeth, while releasing air. In the word "comfortable", the lips
would close for the "m", but I didn't think anyone closes them for an
"f".
--
-Curtis Cameron
WGS-84 33.033N, 96.724W
Graeme Thomas
In article <6gle5f$d94$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu>, Orne Batmagoo
<r...@darkstar.uwsa.edu.SPAM> writes
>Featherstoneshaugh is pronounced "Fanshaw",
Some years ago I heard a radio program discussing the name
Featherstonehaugh. The researchers called everyone with that name that
they could find, and asked how the name was pronounced. All said that
they had heard the theory that it was supposed to be "Fanshaw", but
didn't use it themselves. One Featherstonehaugh, who sounded an elderly
chap, said that his grandmother had been a Fanshaw, but that
pronumciation had been dropped by the rest of the family.
My own favourite strange names are from the two Devon villages of
Woolfardisworthy. They are, of course, pronounced differently: one is
"wulzery", while the other is "oolzry". (It could, of course, be the
other way round.)
--
Graeme Thomas
Michael Hardy
In article <35373ee3...@news.tcp.co.uk>,
lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) writes:
> Are there any English-speaking communities where senior family
> members are still called 'Sir' or 'Madam' or 'Ma'am'? Let's
> ignore special cases, such as royalty.
I suspect this is done in North Carolina. I've lived in NC for
two and a half years, having relocated here from Minnesota. I have
observed that these words are far more frequently used here than in
the North. One local newspaper columnist, Dennis Rogers, a native
Tar Heel, has repeated in his column a joke circulating on the inter-
net. Refering to the many people who have come here from the North
because of the muscular economy, especially the many high tech jobs,
the joke says: ``You know you're still a Yankee if --- '' One of
the list of things that follow is: ``You suspect that `ma'am' is some
sort of secret Southern insult.'' (I understand that in England
some people think `Yankee' means simply an American. I don't know
if that's still true in this decade, but just in case: That is
of course _not_ what it means in this context.)
Mike Hardy
--
Michael Hardy
ha...@math.unc.edu
http://www.math.unc.edu/~hardy
Michael Hardy
Mike Barnes (mi...@exodus.co.uk) wrote:
> most people outside the USA haven't the foggiest idea
> where Arkansas is (although many would know that it's
> somewhere in the USA)
In case anyone is wondering how Americans pronounce `Arkansas':
Most non-rhotic speaker attempting to repeat it would probably say
`I don't know where Arkansas ris.'
Mark Odegard
**Please note Spam Trap** On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:56:15 -0500,
Curtis Cameron <curt...@nospam.cyberramp.net> in
<3534D8...@nospam.cyberramp.net> wrote
|Do you really close your lips when pronouncing an "f"? I thought that
|the standard way was to place the lower lip against the edge of the
|upper teeth, while releasing air. In the word "comfortable", the lips
|would close for the "m", but I didn't think anyone closes them for an
|"f".
With the combination of 'mf' you do. You get your upper teeth
into position on the lower lip to make the f prior to opening
the lips.
For word-initial F, you remain silent until the upper teeth are
against the lower lip. Some people might inhale a little, or a
schwa-ish sound might be prefixed.
You can make a very P-ish sound by leaving the lips closed, but
in place to make an F. I suspect a little air gets out, and the
sound seems composite between the two.
And German has a number of pf words that seem to follow this
pattern.
--
Mark Odegard. (descape to email)
Emailed copies of responses are very much appreciated.
Markus Laker
ha...@math.unc.edu (Michael Hardy) wrote:
> In article <35373ee3...@news.tcp.co.uk>,
> lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) writes:
> > Are there any English-speaking communities where senior family
> > members are still called 'Sir' or 'Madam' or 'Ma'am'? Let's
> > ignore special cases, such as royalty.
> I suspect this is done in North Carolina.
I didn't know that. I thought it had died out around the turn of the
century. It would be interesting to know whether children in North
Carolina are better behaved than children who address their parents less
deferentially. It would be a hard thing to measure, of course.
[...]
> (I understand that in England
> some people think `Yankee' means simply an American. I don't know
> if that's still true in this decade, but just in case: That is
> of course _not_ what it means in this context.)
I believe -- no, strike that. I hope that most British schoolchildren
would know that one side in the American Civil War was called the
Yankees. It would come as more of a surprise to learn that one group of
Americans refers to another group as Yankees and, furthermore, no
offence is meant or taken. (It's no surprise to me, because the topic
has come up here before.) In Britain, 'Yank' and 'Yankee' are vaguely
derogatory terms that just mean 'American'.
Turnaround is fair play, and some Americans have written here that
'Brit' is a term of abuse. Not to us, it isn't: being a Brit is
something to be proud of.
Warren Harding
Markus Laker wrote:
>
snip
I thought it had died out around the turn of the
> century. It would be interesting to know whether children in North
> Carolina are better behaved than children who address their parents less
> deferentially. It would be a hard thing to measure, of course.
>
Markus, forgive me if I am giving the wrong attribution for this, but it
started to confuse me.
In any case, in my family (in Toronto), the grandsons called their
grandfather "sir" as late as the 1950s. It may have gone on into the
'60s, but "Sir" died in 1955.>
a1a5...@bc.sympatico.ca
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:58:42 GMT, Warren Harding <war...@istar.ca>
wrote:
>In any case, in my family (in Toronto), the grandsons called their
>grandfather "sir" as late as the 1950s. It may have gone on into the
>'60s, but "Sir" died in 1955.>
It's a bit late, but I extend condolences: he sounds like a splendid
chap.
Gwen Lenker
DK wrote in message <6h22t0$515$2...@news2.xs4all.nl>...
>I'm going off on a tangent with this one. I was raised a speaker
>of West Coast American English, and I pronounce that extra t in
>"thirteen" so that it sounds like "thirt-teen", and I do so also
>with all of the words below--except seventeen. I can't make that
>"sevent-teen" no matter how hard I try. "Seven-teen" it is, and
>for me shall remain. Actually, that's true for "nine-teen" for me
>as well. Is this possibly regional?
Maybe. At least, you're not alone. I (also West Coast American)
always pronounce the extra stop in "thirteen," "fourteen," and
"eighteen," but never in "seventeen."
"Nineteen" is a special case. I don't pronounce the stop when I say
"nineteen years ago," but in the *name* of a year (nint-teen ninety
eight), I definitely pronounce it.
Simon R. Hughes
Thus Spake ha...@math.unc.edu (Michael Hardy):
> Mike Barnes (mi...@exodus.co.uk) wrote:
>
> > most people outside the USA haven't the foggiest idea
> > where Arkansas is (although many would know that it's
> > somewhere in the USA)
>
> In case anyone is wondering how Americans pronounce `Arkansas':
> Most non-rhotic speaker attempting to repeat it would probably say
> `I don't know where Arkansas ris.'
Where *have* you got your information about the proportion of
non-rhotics with intrusive "r"?
Simon R. Hughes
mailto:shu...@geocities.com
(Mail not sent directly to the above address will be deleted without being read.)
Simon R. Hughes
Thus Spake lakerSki...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker):
> I believe -- no, strike that. I hope that most British schoolchildren
> would know that one side in the American Civil War was called the
> Yankees.
That is hoping a little too much. School book history starts with the
Industrial Revolution (in Britain only) and then jumps 150 years to
the shooting in Sarajevo.
> Turnaround is fair play, and some Americans have written here that
> 'Brit' is a term of abuse. Not to us, it isn't: being a Brit is
> something to be proud of.
Oh... I'd better start calling myself something else.
Aaron J. Dinkin
In article <3536cca5...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, exw...@ix.netcom.com
(Bob Cunningham) wrote:
> Speaking of regional variation, I find it strange that the entry for
> 'comfortable' in _Dictionary of American Regional English_ makes no
> mention of the apparent 'p' sound, even though it discusses a few
> different pronunciations.
As I say "comfortable", there is no [p] in there, even as an allophone. I
pronounce the first two syllables (approximately) ['kVMftR]. [M] is a
labiodental nasal, rather than bilabial as [m]. That is, I do not close my
lips entirely for the /m/ phoneme; rather, I articulate it with my front
teeth resting on my lips. If I try to pronounce "comfortable" with [m]
rather than [M], though, I find that I can't help including a [p].
> Apparently the only difference between a 'p' and an 'f' is that for the
> 'p' the air is released plosively when the lips open, while for the 'f'
> it's released more gradually.
Not quite. /p/ is bilabial (two lips together) while /f/ is labiodental
(teeth upon lips). I think the bilabial fricative is represented in IPA
with a phi and in ASCII IPS by [F] (or is it [P]?).
(Four punctuation marks at the end of a sentence: beat that!)
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Aaron J. Dinkin
In article <3534fc5a...@news2.means.net>, ode...@means.netscape
(delete the scape in netscape) wrote:
> **Please note Spam Trap** On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:56:15 -0500,
> Curtis Cameron <curt...@nospam.cyberramp.net> in
> <3534D8...@nospam.cyberramp.net> wrote
>
> |Do you really close your lips when pronouncing an "f"? I thought that
> |the standard way was to place the lower lip against the edge of the
> |upper teeth, while releasing air. In the word "comfortable", the lips
> |would close for the "m", but I didn't think anyone closes them for an
> |"f".
>
> With the combination of 'mf' you do. You get your upper teeth
> into position on the lower lip to make the f prior to opening
> the lips.
Not as I pronounce it: I never close my lips fully and pronounce the /m/
with my upper teeth already on my lower lip.
> And German has a number of pf words that seem to follow this
> pattern.
Well, that's an affricate phoneme /pf/, much like the /tS/ of English
(except at a different point of articulation).
Aaron J. Dinkin
In article <6h2kq8$ccn$1...@fddinewz.oit.unc.edu>, ha...@math.unc.edu (Michael
Hardy) wrote:
> Refering to the many people who have come here from the North
> because of the muscular economy, especially the many high tech jobs,
> the joke says: ``You know you're still a Yankee if --- '' One of
> the list of things that follow is: ``You suspect that `ma'am' is some
> sort of secret Southern insult.'' (I understand that in England
> some people think `Yankee' means simply an American. I don't know
> if that's still true in this decade, but just in case: That is
> of course _not_ what it means in this context.)
Outside the US, "Yankee" means "American"; in the South it means
"Northerner"; in the North, it means "New Englander", and in New England -
or at least in Boston - it means someone whose family has lived in New
England since at least the 18th Century and, before that, lived in England.
As the saying goes - "By the English I'm a Yankee. By Southerners I'm a
Yankee. But by a Yankee I'm no Yankee!"