"the beads will swing" (???)
Cyrano de B.
I have a problem understanding a line in a poem by Charles Bukowski. The
poem is "The crunch".
Here is an excerpt:
*********
...
our educational system tells us
that we can all be
big-ass winners
it hasn't told us
about the gutters
or the suicides.
or the terror of one person
aching in one place
alone
untouched
unspoken to
watering a plant.
people are not good to each other.
people are not good to each other.
people are not good to each other.
I suppose they never will be.
I don't ask them to be.
but sometimes I think about
it.
the beads will swing
the clouds will cloud
and the killer will behead the child
like taking a bite out of an ice cream cone.
...
*******
What does "the beads will swing" mean? I must admit I don't understand. Do
the beads refer to a rosary? Or dew? Something else? And "swing"? It can
mean so many things...
Any help greatly appreciated!
(Btw, english is not my first language :) )
Cyrano de B.
Peter Duncanson
wrote:
I've been thinking about this since reading your same (unanswered)
question in alt.english.usage.
Unfortunately I don't have an answer.
The phrase might be referring to beads hanging on strings[1] being
disturbed by a strong wind or an earth tremor.
This is only a guess and might be completely wrong.
[1] These hanging beads might be purely decorative or might be used
as a "bead curtain" to keep flies out of a home.
http://www.chainscreens.co.uk/index.php
and
http://www.chainscreens.co.uk/bead-candy-twist.php
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Marius Hancu
> the beads will swing
> the clouds will cloud
IMO:
The world will go ahead unperturbed, everything will behave as
expected, no surprises (it's just natural that beads are swinging and
that the clouds are clouding the sky).
A suggestion of helplessness, also, the inertia and indifference of
the world to the plight of the individual, perhaps.
Marius Hancu
Purl Gurl
Cyrano! You nosing around in English, again?
> I have a problem understanding a line in a poem by Charles Bukowski.
> The poem is "The crunch".
Coming to know an author often helps to understand this author's work.
Bukowski is a cynic, a downtrodden alcoholic, sleazy bar hanger-on.
He is skeptical, critical, rebellious and a societal outcast.
> Here is an excerpt:
[...]
> it hasn't told us
> about the gutters
> or the suicides.
> the beads will swing
> the clouds will cloud
> and the killer will behead the child
> like taking a bite out of an ice cream cone.
> What does "the beads will swing" mean? I must admit I don't understand. Do
> the beads refer to a rosary?
Rosary beads and God.
"the beads will swing"
An allusion to rosary beads being worked through a
faithful's hands. This is a sarcastic commentary
upon this hypocrisy of religion, in full context
of his poem. Society claims to be good, claims to
be Godly, but are truly uncaring and unkind.
"the clouds will cloud"
God's will, a reference to skies clouding over
dark and ominous. Although the faithful pray
and fret with rosary beads, God still delivers
heartbreak, sadness and tragedy upon all.
What is the overall context of Bukowski's poem?
Consider his beads and clouds within his contextual theme,
and consider the type of person he is, and how he thinks.
--
Purl Gurl
--
"Then again what can you expect from a fat-assed, champagne swilling,
half-breed just off the Rez?"
- Joe Kline
Isabella Z
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:42:31 +0200, "Cyrano de B." <C...@no.deB>
>wrote:
>>I have a problem understanding a line in a poem by Charles Bukowski...
>>the beads will swing
>>the clouds will cloud
>>
>>What does "the beads will swing" mean?...
>I've been thinking about this since reading your same (unanswered)
>question in alt.english.usage.
>Unfortunately I don't have an answer.
>The phrase might be referring to beads hanging on strings[1] being
>disturbed by a strong wind or an earth tremor.
How about the beads in/on an abacus? Any sense in that?
Ciao,
--
Isa
Work like you don't need money,
Love like you've never been hurt,
And dance like no one's watching
Cyrano de B.
>
> The phrase might be referring to beads hanging on strings[1] being
> disturbed by a strong wind or an earth tremor.
>
> This is only a guess and might be completely wrong.
>
> [1] These hanging beads might be purely decorative or might be used
> as a "bead curtain" to keep flies out of a home.
Thank you for your reply. It does make a little more sense now.
Cyrano de B.
>
> How about the beads in/on an abacus? Any sense in that?
> Ciao,
> --
It doesn't seem to be about an abacus, in the context of the poem. But thank
you!
> Isa
> Work like you don't need money,
If I didn't need money, I wouldn't work...
Cyrano de B.
"Marius Hancu" <Marius...@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1180226102....@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Yeah, I had got that, thanks, but it still doesn't tell me what the "beads"
which "will swing" refer to --- not as a symbol but as the real thing...
what are they? Somebody said they could be a bead curtain swinging in the
wind. I wasn't asking for the meaning of the poem, just the meaning of those
words.
Cyrano de B.
>
> Coming to know an author often helps to understand this author's work.
> Bukowski is a cynic, a downtrodden alcoholic, sleazy bar hanger-on.
> He is skeptical, critical, rebellious and a societal outcast.
>
I know, but it's not the author's work I want to understand, just the words
"beads" and "swing". I don't think he meant them to be obscure.
>
>> What does "the beads will swing" mean? I must admit I don't understand.
>> Do
>> the beads refer to a rosary?
>
> Rosary beads and God.
Well, then you disagree with a couple of people who said it could be a bead
curtain "swinging" (in the wind, or because someone is passing through, I
suppose). Somebody else suggested they could be beads thrown from floats at
parades in New Orleans.
>
> "the beads will swing"
>
> An allusion to rosary beads being worked through a
> faithful's hands. This is a sarcastic commentary
> upon this hypocrisy of religion, in full context
> of his poem. Society claims to be good, claims to
> be Godly, but are truly uncaring and unkind.
>
> "the clouds will cloud"
>
> God's will, a reference to skies clouding over
> dark and ominous. Although the faithful pray
> and fret with rosary beads, God still delivers
> heartbreak, sadness and tragedy upon all.
>
>
> What is the overall context of Bukowski's poem?
Here is the whole poem:
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-crunch/
But I see your "religious" interpretation. It seems to be a possibility.
Thank you for your time and insight.
C.
bry...@attglobal.net
"Isabella Z" <isabel...@METTILEPATtinE.it> wrote in message
news:okei535a7v4f88qal...@4ax.com...
Literally, I would say love beads,
http://www.hippieshop.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?item=12006
I admit that based on a quick look at Bukowski's web site that there is no
real justification for this, but I personally thought of the novel by Hesse,
The Glass Bead Game, as an explanation and a justification for this and the
other images in the poem, with 'swing' in the musical sense of the word.
Jim
Donna Richoux
> "Marius Hancu" <Marius...@gmail.com> a écrit
> > On May 26, 1:42 pm, "Cyrano de B." <C...@no.deB> wrote:
> >
> >> the beads will swing
> >> the clouds will cloud
> >
> > A suggestion of helplessness, also, the inertia and indifference of
> > the world to the plight of the individual, perhaps.
> >
> Yeah, I had got that, thanks, but it still doesn't tell me what the "beads"
> which "will swing" refer to --- not as a symbol but as the real thing...
> what are they? Somebody said they could be a bead curtain swinging in the
> wind. I wasn't asking for the meaning of the poem, just the meaning of those
> words.
You know what beads are, so you aren't exactly asking for the meaning. I
think you're hoping to hear that there are famous beads of song or
story, beads in the Bible, beads in history, beads in pop (!) culture,
beads *somewhere* that this poet or songwriter or whatever he is could
be referring to.
The deafening silence you're getting suggests otherwise. There ain't any
famous beads. You already mentioned rosaries, and beads were used to
trade with native Americans and Africans, and that just about exhausts
my knowledge of beads. Oh, I made a bead headband on a little loom in
Campfire Girls.
Poets are granted "poetic license" to say any fool thing that crosses
their minds. The rest of us aren't obliged to account for it.
Still and all, it was a reasonable question.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Purl Gurl
(Purl Gurl wrote):
>> Coming to know an author often helps to understand this author's work.
>> Bukowski is a cynic, a downtrodden alcoholic, sleazy bar hanger-on.
>> He is skeptical, critical, rebellious and a societal outcast.
> I know, but it's not the author's work I want to understand, just the words
> "beads" and "swing". I don't think he meant them to be obscure.
You cannot fully understand words of a poet without knowing the poet.
Poetry, by design, is allusive, is deliberately obscure to afford
many understandings of a poem. Each reader will create a personalized
perspective about word meaning and phrase meanings.
You must come to know Bukowski to enjoy full depth meaning of his poetry.
Interpretation of a poem cannot be based solely on a few words selected
from a poem. Good understanding can only be had through overall context
and through knowing the poem author. A few words or phrases from a poem
are meaningless when removed from overall context.
"Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
You cannot appreciate the depth and the impact of those poetic words
because there is no context, no full writing. You do not know of the
poem nor know of the author.
>>> What does "the beads will swing" mean? I must admit I don't understand.
>>> Do the beads refer to a rosary?
>> Rosary beads and God.
> Well, then you disagree with a couple of people who said it could be a bead
> curtain "swinging" (in the wind, or because someone is passing through, I
> suppose). Somebody else suggested they could be beads thrown from floats at
> parades in New Orleans.
I do not disagree with any. I have shared my personal perspective
just as others share their personal perspectives. Each enjoys a
unique understanding of a poem. This is the beauty of poetry.
There is no disagreement, there is no debate. Disagreement and
debate are logically impossible when this comes to poetry.
> Here is the whole poem:
> http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-crunch/
Thank you for this link. I previously visited this site.
I also have a complete collection of Bukowski poetry
here at home.
rzed
news:vmdh53lgjb3n163om...@4ax.com:
> On Sat, 26 May 2007 19:42:31 +0200, "Cyrano de B." <C...@no.deB>
> wrote:
>>I have a problem understanding a line in a poem by Charles
>>Bukowski. The poem is "The crunch".
>>
[...]
>>What does "the beads will swing" mean? I must admit I don't
>>understand. Do the beads refer to a rosary? Or dew? Something
>>else? And "swing"? It can mean so many things...
>>
[...]
> The phrase might be referring to beads hanging on strings[1]
> being disturbed by a strong wind or an earth tremor.
>
> This is only a guess and might be completely wrong.
>
> [1] These hanging beads might be purely decorative or might be
> used as a "bead curtain" to keep flies out of a home.
>
> http://www.chainscreens.co.uk/index.php
> and
> http://www.chainscreens.co.uk/bead-candy-twist.php
The bead curtain idea is certainly suggestive. A person passing
through such a curtain would set the beads to swinging. It would
be an indication that someone had either entered or left the the
observer's ken; a hint of passage and parting. The fading evidence
of the comings and goings that life brings, in other words.
The Glass Bead Game suggestion that others made might be behind
it, too. As I remember, the arrangement of the metaphoric beads
was such that any disturbance led to imperfect results, so that if
the beads were in fact swinging, the imperfection that manifested
itself as cruelty could be one result.
--
rzed
Pat Durkin
"Cyrano de B." <C...@no.deB> wrote in message
news:465954aa$0$25891$426a...@news.free.fr...
I know someone mentioned rosaries, but there are other prayer beads, as
well as worry beads.
http://www.crystalsandjewelry.com/worrybeads.html
Greek beads, Chakra beads and many other meditation beads exist.
Don't you think they will all be activated in times of war and violence?
(I had posted this at your entry in AEU, but you seem not to have
visited that NG, so here it is again.)
Cyrano de B.
>
> You cannot fully understand words of a poet without knowing the poet.
> Poetry, by design, is allusive, is deliberately obscure to afford
> many understandings of a poem. Each reader will create a personalized
> perspective about word meaning and phrase meanings.
>
> You must come to know Bukowski to enjoy full depth meaning of his poetry.
>
> Interpretation of a poem cannot be based solely on a few words selected
> from a poem. Good understanding can only be had through overall context
> and through knowing the poem author. A few words or phrases from a poem
> are meaningless when removed from overall context.
>
> "Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
>
> You cannot appreciate the depth and the impact of those poetic words
> because there is no context, no full writing. You do not know of the
> poem nor know of the author.
I know all that, and I am sorry that you felt you had to explain it all to
me when it wasn't necessary at all. Again, I wasn't interested in the
profound, symbolic meaning of the words, or their interpretation. I was
interested in the literal meaning. When Bukowski, in this poem, says "ice
cream cone", or "watering a plant" or "suicides", we all know what it means.
Then there's what he does with the words and their meanings, and how he uses
them in the poem to give it all a impact that goes beyond the sum of all the
meanings. But first, you have to know the literal, basic meanings! If I
don't know what "watering a plant" means, the image of that lonely person
watering her plants is lost on me. If I ask you what "watering a plant"
means, I suppose you won't tell me that I should know more about the author,
right? All I need to do is look up "water" and "plant". That is the meaning
of my first question: what does "the beads will swing" mean?
Now, after reading several answers, I realize native english speakers don't
even agree on that first literal basic meaning, which is interesting, and
somewhat comforting (it had nothing to do with my knowledge of english after
all!). Now was that intended by Bukowski? You might argue that knowing the
author well should indeed help answer that question. But there is nowhere
else in this poem that poses a problem in understanding the basic meaning to
native speakers. Some other things in the poem are a bit obscure on the
symbolic level, as they would be in a poem, but they're NOT obscure on the
literal meaning. That's my point. To me, it's evidence that even Buk himself
didn't realize not everybody would understand "the beads will swing". Maybe
it's a local thing, a personal thing that he thought more people would know
about when they didn't.
C.
Cyrano de B.
>
> You know what beads are, so you aren't exactly asking for the meaning. I
> think you're hoping to hear that there are famous beads of song or
> story, beads in the Bible, beads in history, beads in pop (!) culture,
> beads *somewhere* that this poet or songwriter or whatever he is could
> be referring to.
>
> The deafening silence you're getting suggests otherwise. There ain't any
> famous beads. You already mentioned rosaries, and beads were used to
> trade with native Americans and Africans, and that just about exhausts
> my knowledge of beads. Oh, I made a bead headband on a little loom in
> Campfire Girls.
>
> Poets are granted "poetic license" to say any fool thing that crosses
> their minds. The rest of us aren't obliged to account for it.
Let me put it this way: in order for me to know that it IS poetic license,
and not something every english speaker knows about and understands, (just
like, say, "ice cream cone", used somewhere else in the poem), I had to ask
somebody who would know, especially after my dictionaries had not proved
very helpful. So "there ain't any famous beads"? OK, I didn't know that. You
did, because you're a native speaker (aren't you?).
But I am surprised. Everything else in the poem, on the literal level, is
pretty straighforward, as often is the case in Bukowski's poems, which sound
like little stories or thoughts jotted down on a piece of paper while riding
the bus home. No big "poetic" effect (apparently). He didn't seem to be that
kind of poet.
So, I am very doubtful that he used poetic license here. He used words like
"educational system", "watering a plant", 'ice cream cone" in a very normal
way. He is just talking like he could talk in an interview. This poetic
effect, if it is one, is totally inconsistent with the rest of the poem. I
wouldn't be surprised that he knew what he was talking about, some local
custom maybe, and either thought everybody would know about it, or didn't
care who did and who didn't . Everything is quite obvious and
straightforward, and all of a sudden, something doesn't make sense, and it's
poetic license.... mmmhhh. I'm not buying it.