The pronunciation of af "either" - is it regional?

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Hi all

The pronunciation of af "either" - is it regional or is it mostly
random how people pronounce it?

How about "tomato"?

--
Bertel, Denmark

[charles]

In article <lm7n5m$eco$1...@dont-email.me>,

Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> Hi all

> The pronunciation of af "either" - is it regional or is it mostly
> random how people pronounce it?

> How about "tomato"?

let's call the wqhole thing off

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Guy Barry]

"Bertel Lund Hansen" wrote in message news:lm7n5m$eco$1...@dont-email.me...

>
>Hi all
>
>The pronunciation of af "either" - is it regional or is it mostly
>random how people pronounce it?

Random in my experience. I've never come across any pattern to it. (When I
was a child I used to think that right-handed people said "eye-ther" and
left-handed people said "ee-ther".)

>How about "tomato"?

That's almost entirely pondian.

And while you're at it, *no one at all* says "potahto".

--
Guy Barry

[David D S]

charles wrote:

> In article <lm7n5m$eco$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> > Hi all
>
> > The pronunciation of af "either" - is it regional or is it mostly
> > random how people pronounce it?
>
> > How about "tomato"?
>
> let's call the wqhole thing off

It's like the debate about whether one pronounces Carmina
with an "eye" saound or an "ee" sound. I'd rather they
called the whole thing Orff

--
David D S: UK and PR China. (Native BrEng speaker)
Use Reply-To header for email. This email address will be
valid for at least 2 weeks from 2014/5/30 0:40:11

[Guy Barry]

"David D S" wrote in message
news:xn0j2naxmnl6h50...@news.individual.net...

>It's like the debate about whether one pronounces Carmina
>with an "eye" saound or an "ee" sound. I'd rather they
>called the whole thing Orff

I thought it was "Let's Carl the whole thing Orff".

--
Guy Barry

[David D S]

even better!

--
David D S: UK and PR China. (Native BrEng speaker)
Use Reply-To header for email. This email address will be

valid for at least 2 weeks from 2014/5/30 0:51:07

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

David D S skrev:

> It's like the debate [...]

I did not ask for a debate. I asked whether one pronunciation is
characteristic of specific areas (e.g. USA versus UK) or if it
can be found anywhere.

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <lm857u$qst$1...@dont-email.me>,

Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

Both can be found in the same person, depending on the circumstances.

And debate can be pronounced two ways.

[R H Draney]

Guy Barry filted:

>
>"Bertel Lund Hansen" wrote in message news:lm7n5m$eco$1...@dont-email.me...
>>

>>The pronunciation of af "either" - is it regional or is it mostly
>>random how people pronounce it?
>
>Random in my experience. I've never come across any pattern to it. (When I
>was a child I used to think that right-handed people said "eye-ther" and
>left-handed people said "ee-ther".)
>
>>How about "tomato"?
>
>That's almost entirely pondian.
>
>And while you're at it, *no one at all* says "potahto".

Ira did...at least once....

From Wikipedia's brief article about the song: "The differences in
pronunciation are not simply regional, however, and serve more specifically to
identify class differences."

....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Joe Fineman]

I wonder what those circumstances are.

I myself used to waver, but then I read that the "eye" pronunciation was
due to George III, who was seduced into it by German orthography, but
was of course imitated by the court, and thence by others who wished to
be fashionable. Fancy an American truckling to George III! Thereafter
I stuck to the "e" pronunciation, though I later found out that the
story was false.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: The neurotic has problems; the psychotic has solutions. :||

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <844n08q...@verizon.net>,

Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net> wrote:

> Horace LaBadie <hlab...@nospam.com> writes:
>
> > In article <lm857u$qst$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >
> >> David D S skrev:
> >>
> >> > It's like the debate [...]
> >>
> >> I did not ask for a debate. I asked whether one pronunciation is
> >> characteristic of specific areas (e.g. USA versus UK) or if it
> >> can be found anywhere.
> >
> > Both can be found in the same person, depending on the circumstances.
>
> I wonder what those circumstances are.

One word response to a question about a choice, when no preference
exists, seems to prompt the "eye" pronunciation.

But the "either/or" construction prompts the "e" pronunciation.

No idea why.

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <hlabadie-FC302B...@nntp.aioe.org>,

Horace LaBadie <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:

> > > Both can be found in the same person, depending on the circumstances.
> >
> > I wonder what those circumstances are.
>
> One word response to a question about a choice, when no preference
> exists, seems to prompt the "eye" pronunciation.
>
> But the "either/or" construction prompts the "e" pronunciation.
>
> No idea why.

Just thought of the influence of one's company. The pronunciation used
by others can produce a temporary change without any conscious effort.

[James Hogg]

When the question of which of the two pronunciations comes up in the
west of Ulster the usual joking response is "You can say ether"
(rhyming with "whether"). The same dialect pronunciation is used in
"neither" which has fallen together with "nether".

--
James

[Jennifer Murphy]

On Thu, 29 May 2014 22:27:23 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

>David D S skrev:
>
>> It's like the debate [...]
>
>I did not ask for a debate.

What, pray tell, does that have to do with anything? Did you forget
where you are?

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Jennifer Murphy skrev:

>>I did not ask for a debate.

> What, pray tell, does that have to do with anything? Did you forget
> where you are?

No, and I did indeed consider writing that it wouldn't surprise
me at all to discover that that was what I had initiated. My
protest was triggered by the fact that my question had not been
answered before people digressed. But maybe I was merely too
impatient?

--
Bertel, Denmark

[Guy Barry]

"R H Draney" wrote in message news:lm88q...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
>Guy Barry filted:

>>And while you're at it, *no one at all* says "potahto".
>
>Ira did...at least once....
>
>From Wikipedia's brief article about the song: "The differences in
>pronunciation are not simply regional, however, and serve more specifically
>to
>identify class differences."

That was presumably referring to the later verses: "you like pajamas and I
like pajahmas", "you like vanilla and I like vanella", "you go for oysters
and I go for ersters" (who says "ersters"?).

--
Guy Barry

[Peter Young]

ObAUE In certain Yorkshire dialects "oyster" can mean "egg", but I
don't know how this would be pronounced.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE W)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Guy Barry]

"Bertel Lund Hansen" wrote in message news:lm99mj$hhe$1...@dont-email.me...

I answered the question - but I think you killfiled me when we had that
dispute about attribution styles. Yet another argument against killfiles.

--
Guy Barry

[R H Draney]

Guy Barry filted:

>
>"you go for oysters
>and I go for ersters" (who says "ersters"?).

Dem dat soives dem....r

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/29/14 10:27 AM, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Hi all
>
> The pronunciation of af "either" - is it regional or is it mostly
> random how people pronounce it?

...

I feel that in the U.S., /'aID@r/ is somewhat more common on the East
Coast than elsewhere, but I could be wrong. There are other
possibilities beside "regional" and "random", by the way.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

Also "either"--/'aID@r/ is often thought of as higher-class (or more
pretentious) than /'iD@r/ here. "Tomahto" would be ridiculously
upper-class in America.

> (who says "ersters"?).

Supposedly some New Yorkers. You can hear Archie Bunker (inspired by
Alf Garnett) saying "toilet" at about 1:20 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4biNFY9Omk

--
Jerry Friedman

[Guy Barry]

"Jerry Friedman" wrote in message news:lma1vp$m0d$1...@news.albasani.net...

Is the "er" spelling meant to represent a rhotic pronunciation? It comes
naturally to me to represent the [V"] sound as "er", but (in the light of
many discussions on this group) I know that such respellings are meaningless
to the majority of Americans. Are there New Yorkers who actually include an
[r] sound in the first syllable of "oysters"?

--
Guy Barry

[Peter T. Daniels]

"er" is the closest a rhotic person can get to the sound of the Brooklyn
(well, actually New York generally, according to the dialectologists)
rendition of the "oy" sound. In the non-rhotic NY dialect, the onset of
the diphthong is akin to the IPA backward-epsilon-with-r-hook sound (the
symbol devised to try to indicate the central vowel without also writing
a form of r after it), but perhaps closer to a mid-front-rounded vowel,
IPA o-slash or oe-digraph (or orthographic o-umlaut). The offglide is
an ordinary [j].

Carroll O'Connor was a native New Yorker, so his pronunciation as
Archie Bunker is trustworthy (I doubt that "Alf Garnett" has anything
to do with it); so were Art Carney and Jackie Gleason, so you can also
rely on *The Honeymooners* for dialect advice.

[Guy Barry]

"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
news:a8143787-781c-4374...@googlegroups.com...

>Carroll O'Connor was a native New Yorker, so his pronunciation as
>Archie Bunker is trustworthy (I doubt that "Alf Garnett" has anything
>to do with it);

The character of Archie Bunker was based on the character of Alf Garnett in
the BBC sitcom Till Death Us Do Part. Jerry wasn't suggesting that his
accent was based on Alf Garnett's (from the East End of London).

--
Guy Barry

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2014-05-29 16:41:01 +0000, David D S said:

> charles wrote:
>
>> In article <lm7n5m$eco$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>> Hi all
>>
>>> The pronunciation of af "either" - is it regional or is it mostly
>>> random how people pronounce it?
>>
>>> How about "tomato"?
>>
>> let's call the wqhole thing off
>
> It's like the debate about whether one pronounces Carmina
> with an "eye" saound or an "ee" sound. I'd rather they
> called the whole thing Orff

For what it's I don't use either of the pronunciations. I always
understood that the Latin word was a dactyl, and so I have a very weak
middle vowel in it, whether Burana or Catulli.

(Before anyone whooshes me, I know perfectly well that you were punning.)


--
athel

[Peter T. Daniels]

Really? Do you think Norman Lear gave Carroll O'Connor tapes (or films?)
of "Till Death" and had him study them to base his character on the
character portrayed in that series?

If you can show that the first episodes of the US series imitated
the UK series almost verbatim -- as was done for Queer As Folk,
The Office, and (with disastrous results) Coupling -- then I'll
believe you.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Over Here, the only controversy is whether it's CAR-mee-na or car-MEE-na
-- i.e., based on the Latin original or the English approximation
repectively.

Note that the British avoidance of the subjunctive caused him to
fail to offer the pun that someone else had to: I'd rather they
Carl the whole thing Orff.

[Guy Barry]

"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message

news:cc08972b-eac8-4867...@googlegroups.com...

>
>On Friday, May 30, 2014 1:46:47 PM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
>> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message
>> news:a8143787-781c-4374...@googlegroups.com...
>
>> >Carroll O'Connor was a native New Yorker, so his pronunciation as
>> >Archie Bunker is trustworthy (I doubt that "Alf Garnett" has anything
>> >to do with it);
>>
>> The character of Archie Bunker was based on the character of Alf Garnett
>> in
>> the BBC sitcom Till Death Us Do Part. Jerry wasn't suggesting that his
>> accent was based on Alf Garnett's (from the East End of London).
>
>Really? Do you think Norman Lear gave Carroll O'Connor tapes (or films?)
>of "Till Death" and had him study them to base his character on the
>character portrayed in that series?

I really have no idea. I don't know much about "All in the Family", but my
understanding is that the format was based on that of Till Death Us Do Part:
bigoted male lead character, long-suffering wife, good-natured daughter,
lazy left-wing son-in-law. The actual portrayal of the characters was
presumably adapted to the different culture.

>If you can show that the first episodes of the US series imitated
>the UK series almost verbatim -- as was done for Queer As Folk,
>The Office, and (with disastrous results) Coupling -- then I'll
>believe you.

Wikipedia: "Produced by Norman Lear and Bud Yorkin, the original pilot was
entitled Justice for All and was developed for ABC. Tom Bosley, Jack Warden,
and Jackie Gleason were all considered for the role of Archie Bunker. In
fact, CBS wanted to buy the rights to the original British show Till Death
Us Do Part and retool it specifically for Gleason, who was under contract to
them, but producer Norman Lear beat out CBS for the rights and offered the
show to ABC."

I don't know whether any of Johnny Speight's scripts were directly adapted;
he's certainly not given a writing credit. I presume he would have received
some sort of credit though.

--
Guy Barry

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, May 31, 2014 2:22:08 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> "Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message

> news:cc08972b-eac8-4867...@googlegroups.com...

> >If you can show that the first episodes of the US series imitated
> >the UK series almost verbatim -- as was done for Queer As Folk,
> >The Office, and (with disastrous results) Coupling -- then I'll
> >believe you.
>

> I don't know whether any of Johnny Speight's scripts were directly adapted;
> he's certainly not given a writing credit. I presume he would have received
> some sort of credit though.

The closing credits always carried the acknowledgment "Based on ...." The
Complete Series of *Sanford & Son* (similarly related to *Steptoe & Son*)
is now in a $25 box, but I never cared for it enough to buy that. I saw an episode on a nostalgia TV channel a while back (it held up pretty well) but
I don't think I stayed through all the closing credits.

[rafael.c...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 9:38:10 AM UTC-7, Guy Barry wrote:
> "Bertel Lund Hansen" wrote in message news:lm7n5m$eco$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> >Hi all
>
> >The pronunciation of af "either" - is it regional or is it mostly
> >random how people pronounce it?
>

> Random in my experience. I've never come across any pattern to it. (When I
> was a child I used to think that right-handed people said "eye-ther" and
> left-handed people said "ee-ther".)
>
> >How about "tomato"?
>
> That's almost entirely pondian.
>

> And while you're at it, *no one at all* says "potahto".
>

That's not true. I say "potahto".[1]


charles, just not often

[1] GG (spit) kept auto correcting this spelling. I had to
copy and past Guy's to get it to remain.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, June 2, 2014 10:27:16 PM UTC-4, rafael.c...@gmail.com wrote:

> [1] GG (spit) kept auto correcting this spelling. I had to
> copy and past Guy's to get it to remain.

Why don't you turn off Autocorrect in whatever internet browser you're
using? In IE it's apparently on by default but easy enough to disable.
(Chrome defaults to squiggling but not to autocorrecting.)

[Guy Barry]

rafael.cd.bishop wrote in message
news:3367d063-e9f1-4f4f...@googlegroups.com...

>
>On Thursday, May 29, 2014 9:38:10 AM UTC-7, Guy Barry wrote:

>> And while you're at it, *no one at all* says "potahto".
>>
>
>That's not true. I say "potahto".[1]
>
>charles, just not often

Well I do, in the phrase "You say potayto, I say potahto" (which has a wider
currency than the original song). And of course there's "Yes We Have No
Bananas":

"We have an old fashioned toMAHto
A Long Island poTAHto..."

but that was supposed to be mimicking the pronunciation of a Greek.
(Incidentally I first heard it as "a nice Jersey potahto"; was there a
separate British version?)

However, I'm fairly certain that no native speaker of English uses the
pronunciation "potahto" in regular speech unless they're being facetious.
Would anyone like to prove me wrong?

--
Guy Barry

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 4:01:15 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:
> rafael.cd.bishop wrote in message
> news:3367d063-e9f1-4f4f...@googlegroups.com...
> >On Thursday, May 29, 2014 9:38:10 AM UTC-7, Guy Barry wrote:

> >> And while you're at it, *no one at all* says "potahto".
> >That's not true. I say "potahto".[1]
> >charles, just not often
>
> Well I do, in the phrase "You say potayto, I say potahto" (which has a wider
> currency than the original song). And of course there's "Yes We Have No
> Bananas":
> "We have an old fashioned toMAHto
> A Long Island poTAHto..."
> but that was supposed to be mimicking the pronunciation of a Greek.
> (Incidentally I first heard it as "a nice Jersey potahto"; was there a
> separate British version?)

Unless "tomato" and "potato" rhyme with some other word in a part of
the lyric you haven't quoted, the only reason for using "toMAHto" and
"poTAHto" is to make the individual sound ignorant and hence foreign.

Of course a British version would change the toponym to "Jersey," if
Old Jersey is acclaimed, or stereotypically acclaimed, for growing
potatoes. Whereas, in fact, Long Island was long renowned for potato
farms, perhaps until as late as after WWII, when the potato fields
began to be covered with suburbs.

[Guy Barry]

"Peter T. Daniels" wrote in message

news:11c790a7-8f8a-48bc...@googlegroups.com...

>
>On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 4:01:15 AM UTC-4, Guy Barry wrote:

>> Well I do, in the phrase "You say potayto, I say potahto" (which has a
>> wider
>> currency than the original song). And of course there's "Yes We Have No
>> Bananas":
>> "We have an old fashioned toMAHto
>> A Long Island poTAHto..."
>> but that was supposed to be mimicking the pronunciation of a Greek.
>> (Incidentally I first heard it as "a nice Jersey potahto"; was there a
>> separate British version?)
>
>Unless "tomato" and "potato" rhyme with some other word in a part of
>the lyric you haven't quoted, the only reason for using "toMAHto" and
>"poTAHto" is to make the individual sound ignorant and hence foreign.

You don't know the lyrics to "Yes We Have No Bananas"? I learned them as:

Yes! We have no bananas,
We have no bananas today.
We've got broad beans like bunions,
Cab-BAG-es and onions,
And all kinds of fruit, they say,
We've got an old fashioned tomato,
A nice Jersey potahto,
But yes! We have no bananas,
We have no bananas today.

However, the versions I've found on the Web are slightly different: "string
beans and onions, cab-BAG-es and scallions...", as well as the "Long Island"
change, suggesting there was a different version for the British market.
Also there's a verse that I didn't know:

There's a fruit store on our street
It's run by a Greek.
And he keeps good things to eat
But you should hear him speak!

When you ask him anything, he never answers "no".
He just "yes"es you to death,
And as he takes your dough, he tells you...

Incidentally, it's believed that the tune is almost entirely plagiarized
from other pieces of music: according to Wikipedia they're Handel's
Hallelujah Chorus, "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean", "I Dreamt I Dwelt in
Marble Halls", "Aunt Dinah's Quilting party" and Cole Porter's "An
Old-Fashioned Garden".

--
Guy Barry

[David Kleinecke]

On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Guy Barry wrote:
> There's a fruit store on our street
> It's run by a Greek.
> And he keeps good things to eat
> But you should hear him speak!
>
> When you ask him anything, he never answers "no".
> He just "yes"es you to death,
> And as he takes your dough, he tells you...

My name is George the Greek
I live on Laramie Street
I sell-a the banan [sic]
and everything else that's sweet

Viva, viva la Garibaldi
Viva, viva,la Victor Emanuel.

[Snidely]

rafael.c...@gmail.com pounded on thar keyboard to tell us

> [1] GG (spit) kept auto correcting this spelling. I had to
> copy and past Guy's to get it to remain.

Strange. I just posted in the other group, with potahto. GG (which
doesn't provoke my venom) underlined the word, but shrugged and let me
get away with it.

/dps "I could even say something good about Xnews, in a weak moment"

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)