To sprinkle a pinch of salt
Marius Hancu
Is this sprinkling of salt an idiom or a superstition?
Or both?
------
And how should he best persuade his fellow-countrymen to leave off
believing in this supernatural element? Looking at the matter from a
practical point of view he thought the Archbishop of Canterbury afforded
the most promising key to the situation. It lay between him and the
Pope. The Pope was perhaps best in theory, but in practice the
Archbishop of Canterbury would do sufficiently well. If he could only
manage to sprinkle a pinch of salt, as it were, on the Archbishop's
tail, he might convert the whole Church of England to free thought by a
coup de main.
The Way of All Flesh, by Samuel Butler , p. 387
http://www.classicreader.com/read.php/bookid.265/sec.65
------
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Don Phillipson
news:mWKnj.4799$pn....@wagner.videotron.net...
Neither: this is an ancient figure of speech for impossibility.
The source idea is that if you could get close enough to a
(wild) bird to sprinkle salt on its tail, you would become able
to catch the bird. This proposition appears to be quite true.
But the practical upshot is that no one should expect ever to
get close enough to a wild bird to sprinkle salt on its tail.
This action is for rhetorical purposes impossible.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Skitt
It has been said that if you can sprinkle salt on a bird's tail, you can
catch it.
--
Skitt (AmE)
quoting from a tale about a tail
Marius Hancu
> Neither: this is an ancient figure of speech for impossibility.
> The source idea is that if you could get close enough to a
> (wild) bird to sprinkle salt on its tail, you would become able
> to catch the bird. This proposition appears to be quite true.
> But the practical upshot is that no one should expect ever to
> get close enough to a wild bird to sprinkle salt on its tail.
> This action is for rhetorical purposes impossible.
Very interesting.
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Nick
Cerebos salt has (or had, I'm not looked recently) a picture of a boy
chasing a bird with the slogan "see how it runs" on it - alluding to the
story, and to how fine the salt was and to the anti-caking agents in it.
Nick Spalding
on Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:37:48 -0800:
I’m looking for the ogo-pogo
that funny little ogo-pogo.
His mother was an earwig, his father was a whale,
I want to put a little bit of salt on his tail.
I want to find the ogo-pogo while he’s playing on his old banjo.
For the Lord Mayor of London, the Lord Mayor of London, wants to put him
in the Lord Mayor’s show
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Oleg Lego
I think it was _Morton's_ salt that used the slogan "When it rains, it
pours".
--
WCdnE
Evan Kirshenbaum
It has apparently been said for a long time:
2851 It is a foolish Bird that stayeth the laying Salt upon her
Tail.
Thoma Fuller, _Gnomologia: Adagies and Proverbs; Wise
Sentences and Witty Sayings, Ancient and Modern, Foreign and
British_, 1732.
It also appears in a (satirical?) poem a couple of years earlier:
His Flounders they forgot to bring,
Nor Gudgeons did provide;
Nor laid they Salt upon his Tail;
And so por Toby dy'd.
"An excellent new Ballad on the South-Sea Dog-Fish, that was
shewn on the River Thames, in July 1725", _Miscellaneous
Poems by Several Hands_, 1726
The notion appears to be that if you somehow could do it, the bird
would be unable to fly away. But, of course, you can't get close
enough. It's used metaphorically, both refering to something
impracticable and to a fear of being trapped, at least since the early
nineteenth century, and it's mentioned as something told to small
children, presumably to give them something to occupy themselves with.
I myself vaguely recall a rhyme I learned as a child, which,
unfortunately I can't seem to find on the web or Google Books.
Something like
He went to catch a goony(?) bird
and thought he couldn't fail
Because he'd brought a little salt
to spread upon its tail.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The look on our faces isn't confusion.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |It's disbelief.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |
| Jon Stewart
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:06:48 +0000, Nick posted:
>
>>Cerebos salt has (or had, I'm not looked recently) a picture of a boy
>>chasing a bird with the slogan "see how it runs" on it - alluding to the
>>story, and to how fine the salt was and to the anti-caking agents in it.
>
> I think it was _Morton's_ salt that used the slogan "When it rains, it
> pours".
Still does. A flash animation of both the raining and the pouring can
be found on their web site:
The slogan's been in use since 1911, although according to
http://www.mortonsalt.com/heritage/mug.html
the original pitched slogan was (I kid you not), "Even in rainy
weather, it flows freely".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Now and then an innocent man is sent
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to the legislature.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Kim Hubbard
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
R H Draney
>
>On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:06:48 +0000, Nick posted:
>
>>chasing a bird with the slogan "see how it runs" on it - alluding to the
>>story, and to how fine the salt was and to the anti-caking agents in it.
>
>I think it was _Morton's_ salt that used the slogan "When it rains, it
>pours".
Both clever in their day....
Bon-Ami cleansing powder had a picture of a newly-hatched baby chick with the
slogan "hasn't scratched yet"....
I'm not sure why nobody can come up with anything that good now...maybe it's the
exigencies of having to translate every slogan into languages where the wordplay
doesn't work...I remember looking at a placard at the pharmacy announcing that
they could add flavorings to liquid medicines so children would take them...in
English the slogan was "do yourself a flavor", but the Spanish version had a
boring single-meaning translation of "give it some taste"....
Only one I can think of that even comes close to the brilliance of the old days
was an ad for a pooper-scooper promising that it "picks up where your dog leaves
off"....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Barbara Bailey
> "Skitt" writes:
>> Marius Hancu wrote:
>>> Is this sprinkling of salt an idiom or a superstition?
>>> Or both?
>>>
>>> Archbishop of Canterbury would do sufficiently well. If he could
>>> only manage to sprinkle a pinch of salt, as it were, on the
>>> Archbishop's tail, he might convert the whole Church of England to
>>> free thought by a coup de main.
>> It has been said that if you can sprinkle salt on a bird's tail, you
>> can catch it.
I remember that one. In my case it was in the Grolier children's
encyclopedia, _The Book of Knowlege_ and it was one of the later verses
of Simple Simon. That book said "dicky-bird", though. There was also
one about him going fishing in a pail, and I don't recall the others.
But they're here: <http://ingeb.org/songs/simplesi.html>
Simple Simon met a pieman
Going to the fair;
Says Simple Simon to the pieman,
"Let me taste your ware."
Says the pieman to Simple Simon,
"Show me first your penny."
Says Simple Simon to the pieman,
"Indeed I have not any."
He went to catch a dickey bird,
And thought he could not fail,
Because he'd got a little salt,
To put upon his tail.
He went to take a bird's nest,
Was built upon a bough;
The branch gave way and Simon fell
Into a dirty slough.
He went to shoot a wild duck,
But wild duck flew away;
Say Simon, I can't hit him,
Because he will not stay."
Simple Simon went a-fishing,
For to catch a whale;
All the water he had got
Was in his mother's pail.
Simple Simon went a-hunting,
For to catch a hare;
He rode an ass about the streets,
But couldn't find one there.
He went for to eat honey,
Out of the mustard pot;
He bit his tongue until he cried,
That was all the good he got.
He went to ride a spotted cow
That had a little calf;
She threw him down upon the ground,
Which made the people laugh.
Once Simon made a great snowball,
And brought it in to roast;
He laid it down before the fire,
And soon the ball was lost.
He went to slide upon the ice
Before the ice would bear;
Then he plunged in above his knees,
Which made poor Simon stare.
He washed himself with blacking ball,
Because he had no soap;
Then said unto his mother,
"I'm a beauty now, I hope."
Simple Simon went to look
If plums grew on a thistle;
He pricked his fingers very much,
Which made poor Simon whistle.
He went for water in a sieve,
But soon it all ran through.
And now poor Simple Simon
Bids you all adieu.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> I myself vaguely recall a rhyme I learned as a child, which,
>> unfortunately I can't seem to find on the web or Google Books.
>> Something like
>>
>> He went to catch a goony(?) bird
>> and thought he couldn't fail
>> Because he'd brought a little salt
>> to spread upon its tail.
>
> I remember that one. In my case it was in the Grolier children's
> encyclopedia, _The Book of Knowlege_ and it was one of the later
> verses of Simple Simon. That book said "dicky-bird", though.
So did my memory, once I thought about it some more over lunch.
> There was also one about him going fishing in a pail, and I don't
> recall the others.
>
> But they're here: <http://ingeb.org/songs/simplesi.html>
>
> Simple Simon met a pieman
> Going to the fair;
> Says Simple Simon to the pieman,
> "Let me taste your ware."
>
> Says the pieman to Simple Simon,
> "Show me first your penny."
> Says Simple Simon to the pieman,
> "Indeed I have not any."
>
> He went to catch a dickey bird,
> And thought he could not fail,
> Because he'd got a little salt,
> To put upon his tail.
etc. "Simple Simon" first shows up in Google Books in 1841[1], but
the "dicky-bird" verse doesn't appear until 1911.
[1] The poem, that is. The phrase "Simple Simon" is mentioned back to
1767, and it's defined in the 1788 _Classical Dictionary of the
Vulgar Tongue_ as "a natural, a silly fellow".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It's gotten to the point where the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |only place you can get work done is
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |at home, because no one bugs you,
|and the best place to entertain
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |yourself is at work, because the
(650)857-7572 |Internet connections are faster.
| Scott Adams
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Donna Richoux
> Barbara Bailey <rabr...@yayhu.comm> writes:
> > But they're here: <http://ingeb.org/songs/simplesi.html>
> >
> > Simple Simon met a pieman
> > Going to the fair;
> > Says Simple Simon to the pieman,
> > "Let me taste your ware."
> >
> > Says the pieman to Simple Simon,
> > "Show me first your penny."
> > Says Simple Simon to the pieman,
> > "Indeed I have not any."
> >
> > He went to catch a dickey bird,
> > And thought he could not fail,
> > Because he'd got a little salt,
> > To put upon his tail.
>
> etc. "Simple Simon" first shows up in Google Books in 1841[1], but
> the "dicky-bird" verse doesn't appear until 1911.
>
> [1] The poem, that is. The phrase "Simple Simon" is mentioned back to
> 1767, and it's defined in the 1788 _Classical Dictionary of the
> Vulgar Tongue_ as "a natural, a silly fellow".
The Opies can antedate that. The first known publication of those four
verses was in 1764, and the others (including the bird/salt/tail) later.
They say the phrase "Simple Simon" turns up in a ballad printed in 1685,
and is the name of a country dance in Playford's _The Dancing Master_,
1665.
Leaving Simon out of it, the Oxford Dictionary of English Proverbs first
citations of "Salt on a bird's tail, To case (lay, throw)" are 1580 and
1595. ODEP explains it as "jocular advice given to children."
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Marius Hancu
> >> And how should he best persuade his fellow-countrymen to leave off
> >> believing in this supernatural element? Looking at the matter from a
> >> practical point of view he thought the Archbishop of Canterbury
> >> afforded the most promising key to the situation. It lay between him
> >> and the Pope. The Pope was perhaps best in theory, but in practice the
> >> Archbishop of Canterbury would do sufficiently well. If he could only
> >> manage to sprinkle a pinch of salt, as it were, on the Archbishop's
> >> tail, he might convert the whole Church of England to free thought by
> >> a coup de main.
>
> The notion appears to be that if you somehow could do it, the bird
> would be unable to fly away.
So Ernest probably imagines incapacitating the Archbishop of
Canterbury by the strength of his arguments and convert him and his
whole flock to whatever he himself was preaching ...
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Donna Richoux
Yes, and in the same breath, he is indicating the impossibility of such
an idea. The child longs to catch the bird with salt, but the adult
knows that it's silly advice.
Marius Hancu
> > So Ernest probably imagines incapacitating the Archbishop of
> > Canterbury by the strength of his arguments and convert him and his
> > whole flock to whatever he himself was preaching ...
>
> Yes, and in the same breath, he is indicating the impossibility of such
> an idea. The child longs to catch the bird with salt, but the adult
> knows that it's silly advice.
OK, I've found this in Dickens. Is it related?
-------
"True again," said Uncle Pumblechook. "You've hit it, sir! Plenty of
subjects going about, for them that know how to put salt upon their
tails. That's what's wanted. A man needn't go far to find a subject,
if he's ready with his salt-box."
Great Expectations by Charles Dickens, p. 37
http://www.web-books.com/Classics/Dickens/Expect/Expect04_2.htm
------
Does
"for them that know how to put salt upon their tails"
mean
"for those who know what's what?"
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Mike Lyle
It's an extension of the trope, but still pretty close to the original
notion: identifying, or "pinning down", a subject is presented as
analogous to catching a chicken.
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Donna Richoux
> Marius Hancu wrote:
> > On Jan 30, 5:52 am, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
> >
> >>> So Ernest probably imagines incapacitating the Archbishop of
> >>> Canterbury by the strength of his arguments and convert him and his
> >>> whole flock to whatever he himself was preaching ...
> >>
> >> Yes, and in the same breath, he is indicating the impossibility of
> >> such an idea. The child longs to catch the bird with salt, but the
> >> adult knows that it's silly advice.
> >
> > OK, I've found this in Dickens. Is it related?
> >
> > -------
> > "True again," said Uncle Pumblechook. "You've hit it, sir! Plenty of
> > subjects going about, for them that know how to put salt upon their
> > tails. That's what's wanted. A man needn't go far to find a subject,
> > if he's ready with his salt-box."
> >
> > Great Expectations by Charles Dickens, p. 37
> > http://www.web-books.com/Classics/Dickens/Expect/Expect04_2.htm
> > ------
> >
> > Does
> > "for them that know how to put salt upon their tails"
> > mean
> > "for those who know what's what?"
As Mike says, more like, those who can catch ahold of elusive new ideas.
The sentence before and after your quote make it clear that the
discussion is about finding fresh ideas for sermons.
You know how you have an interesting idea at one moment, but then you
lose in it the unending stream of conscious thought, and it may not
occur to again until much, much later? That sort of thing. Jotting an
idea down in a notebook is one time-honored method for keeping it safe,
and this could be likened to putting salt on its tail.
To repeat, the basic reference is that putting salt on tails is
supposed to be a method for catching birds (although it is also humorous
because it is impossible).
>
> It's an extension of the trope, but still pretty close to the original
> notion: identifying, or "pinning down", a subject is presented as
> analogous to catching a chicken.
Mike, I wonder if you wrote "chicken" under the influence of the "chook"
of "Pumblechook." There's nothing in the salt-on-tail image that
requires chickens, as far as I know; I think of the attempts to be
catching smaller and more wild sorts of birds.
Mike Lyle
[...]
> Mike, I wonder if you wrote "chicken" under the influence of the
> "chook" of "Pumblechook." There's nothing in the salt-on-tail image
> that requires chickens, as far as I know; I think of the attempts to
> be catching smaller and more wild sorts of birds.
I see that Brewer refers simply to "bird", but no, I've only ever been
familiar with the idea in connection with chickens. This may, of course,
be under the influence of the Cerebos salt label we sometimes mention
here. I may have mentioned here before that when I was a child somebody
told me, and I believed, that you could catch a chicken by putting salt
on its tail because it would find it so irritant that it would stop
running away in order to try and get rid of the salt. Only when I was a
little older did I click that you'd be very lucky to get salt through
the bird's tail feathers to its skin if you hadn't caught it already, so
this aetiological tale was most unlikely. But chickens are strange
beasts*, so a little part of me is still ready to believe there may be
some truth there.
*Example of chicken strangeness: First catch your chicken. Then gently
take its head and place it under the bird's wing. Put the chicken down.
She will stay like that for a while, presumably in the belief that if
her head is under her wing, she must be asleep.