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Grotto
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Ken Blake
Sep 27, 2022, 5:52:20 PM9/27/22
to
The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
when that was the case.
is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
when that was the case.
Mark Brader
Sep 27, 2022, 6:20:55 PM9/27/22
to
Ken Blake:
> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
> Italian?
Because English has the neuter gender, and Italian doesn't.
But you *were* talking about the spelling, not the gender.
> I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
> when that was the case.
The OED Online says it derives from "Italian 'grotta' (for which
Dante has also 'grotto')", so that appears to be it. Their earliest
cite (1617) in reference to a natural formation spells it "grottae",
but the rest all have "grotto" or "Grotto".
--
Mark Brader |"It's bad enough that this... font doesn't distinguish
Toronto | between I and l, but I'd never had a problem with V before!"
m...@vex.net | -- Steve Summit
My text in this article is in the public domain.
> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine)...
> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
> Italian?
But you *were* talking about the spelling, not the gender.
> I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
> when that was the case.
Dante has also 'grotto')", so that appears to be it. Their earliest
cite (1617) in reference to a natural formation spells it "grottae",
but the rest all have "grotto" or "Grotto".
--
Mark Brader |"It's bad enough that this... font doesn't distinguish
Toronto | between I and l, but I'd never had a problem with V before!"
m...@vex.net | -- Steve Summit
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Jerry Friedman
Sep 27, 2022, 6:57:07 PM9/27/22
to
Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ross Clark
Sep 27, 2022, 7:06:39 PM9/27/22
to
On 28/09/2022 11:20 a.m., Mark Brader wrote:
> Ken Blake:
>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine)...
>
>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> Italian?
>
> Because English has the neuter gender, and Italian doesn't.
> But you *were* talking about the spelling, not the gender.
>
>> I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>> when that was the case.
>
> The OED Online says it derives from "Italian 'grotta' (for which
> Dante has also 'grotto')", so that appears to be it. Their earliest
> cite (1617) in reference to a natural formation spells it "grottae",
> but the rest all have "grotto" or "Grotto".
Actually (under "Forms") they cite several early spellings with -a. They
> Ken Blake:
>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine)...
>
>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> Italian?
>
> Because English has the neuter gender, and Italian doesn't.
> But you *were* talking about the spelling, not the gender.
>
>> I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>> when that was the case.
>
> The OED Online says it derives from "Italian 'grotta' (for which
> Dante has also 'grotto')", so that appears to be it. Their earliest
> cite (1617) in reference to a natural formation spells it "grottae",
> but the rest all have "grotto" or "Grotto".
also note (under "Etymology") that both -a and -o forms appear in Dante.
Quinn C
Sep 27, 2022, 7:11:20 PM9/27/22
to
* Jerry Friedman:
Can one guess the grammatical gender of Spanish words ending in -e? Even
German has "Avocado", however, it's feminine!
A particularly egregious example that I think I've mentioned is "junto".
--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220
German has "Avocado", however, it's feminine!
A particularly egregious example that I think I've mentioned is "junto".
--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220
Ken Blake
Sep 27, 2022, 7:11:56 PM9/27/22
to
On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 22:20:46 +0000, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
>Ken Blake:
>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine)...
>
>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> Italian?
>
>Because English has the neuter gender, and Italian doesn't.
>But you *were* talking about the spelling, not the gender.
Yes, but the spelling reflects the Italian gender.
>Ken Blake:
>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine)...
>
>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> Italian?
>
>Because English has the neuter gender, and Italian doesn't.
>But you *were* talking about the spelling, not the gender.
>> I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>> when that was the case.
>
>The OED Online says it derives from "Italian 'grotta' (for which
>Dante has also 'grotto')", so that appears to be it. Their earliest
>cite (1617) in reference to a natural formation spells it "grottae",
>but the rest all have "grotto" or "Grotto".
Ken Blake
Sep 27, 2022, 7:12:20 PM9/27/22
to
Ken Blake
Sep 27, 2022, 7:15:02 PM9/27/22
to
On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>>
>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>> when that was the case.
>
>English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
Some Italian words, not all. Most Italian nouns end in o if they are
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>>
>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>> when that was the case.
>
>English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
masculine, or in a if they are feminine. But some nouns of both
genders end in e.
Ken Blake
Sep 27, 2022, 7:27:09 PM9/27/22
to
On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 19:11:08 -0400, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>* Jerry Friedman:
>
>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>>> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>>> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>>> when that was the case.
>>
>> English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o. So
>> Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
>> complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
>> process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
>
>Can one guess the grammatical gender of Spanish words ending in -e?
Same for Italian.
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>* Jerry Friedman:
>
>> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>>> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>>> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>>> when that was the case.
>>
>> English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o. So
>> Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
>> complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
>> process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
>
>Can one guess the grammatical gender of Spanish words ending in -e?
musika
Sep 27, 2022, 7:27:43 PM9/27/22
to
grotto (n.)
"picturesque cavern or cave," 1610s, from Italian grotta, earlier
cropta, a corruption of Latin crypta "vault, cavern," from Greek krypte
"hidden place" (see crypt). Terminal -o may be from its being spelled
that way in many translations of Dante's "Divine Comedy."
--
Ray
UK
Ken Blake
Sep 27, 2022, 7:28:55 PM9/27/22
to
On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 00:27:37 +0100, musika <mUs...@NOSPAMexcite.com>
wrote:
Thanks.
wrote:
Jerry Friedman
Sep 27, 2022, 9:15:20 PM9/27/22
to
On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 5:11:20 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
> >> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
> >> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
> >>
> >> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
> >> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
> >> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
> >> when that was the case.
> >
> > English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o. So
> > Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
> > complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
> > process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
> Can one guess the grammatical gender of Spanish words ending in -e?
Not in general.
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
> >> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
> >> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
> >>
> >> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
> >> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
> >> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
> >> when that was the case.
> >
> > English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o. So
> > Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
> > complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
> > process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
> Can one guess the grammatical gender of Spanish words ending in -e?
M: puente 'bridge', jefe 'chief, boss', enlace 'link'
F: fuente 'spring (of water), source', llave 'key', gente 'people'
In Academic Spanish, some such words for people can have either gender
when referring to a specific person, according to the person's gender: el/la
presidente, el/la canadense, etc.
There are probably rules for specific cases with few or no exceptions,
but I don't know them. Are nouns with the suffix -aje always masculine,
for instance?
> Even German has "Avocado", however, it's feminine!
> A particularly egregious example that I think I've mentioned is "junto".
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
Sep 27, 2022, 9:18:41 PM9/27/22
to
On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 5:15:02 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
> >> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
> >> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
> >>
> >> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
> >> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
> >> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
> >> when that was the case.
> >
> >English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
> Some Italian words, not all. Most Italian nouns end in o if they are
> masculine, or in a if they are feminine. But some nouns of both
> genders end in e.
That's why I put "know" in quotation marks. Of course it's not true, but
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
> >> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
> >> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
> >>
> >> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
> >> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
> >> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
> >> when that was the case.
> >
> >English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
> Some Italian words, not all. Most Italian nouns end in o if they are
> masculine, or in a if they are feminine. But some nouns of both
> genders end in e.
there seems to have been some belief that explains why nouns with other
endings from Italian and Spanish have gotten -o in English.
> >So
> >Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
> >complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
> >process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
Sep 27, 2022, 9:30:32 PM9/27/22
to
(And that's despite the fact that the song "Bella Bimba" is reasonably
well known to English speakers.)
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Quinn C
Sep 27, 2022, 10:25:39 PM9/27/22
to
And fruits have a tendency to be feminine in German. Mango, Pomelo,
Kumquat, Durian are also feminine although the phonetics rather doesn't
suggest it.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
bil...@shaw.ca
Sep 28, 2022, 2:17:48 AM9/28/22
to
bill
Bertel Lund Hansen
Sep 28, 2022, 2:24:15 AM9/28/22
to
Den 27.09.2022 kl. 23.42 skrev Ken Blake:
> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
> Italian?
English and gender?
> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
> Italian?
In Danish it is "grotte" so there.
--
Bertel
Richard Heathfield
Sep 28, 2022, 3:52:00 AM9/28/22
to
To check, I just listened to Dean Martin singing it. Still never
heard of it, about it, or (until just now) it.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Moylan
Sep 28, 2022, 6:17:56 AM9/28/22
to
CDB
Sep 28, 2022, 8:29:02 AM9/28/22
to
a lawyer," they said.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/avocado
Jerry Friedman
Sep 28, 2022, 9:28:06 AM9/28/22
to
On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 4:17:56 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 28/09/22 16:17, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 6:30:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> >> Bimbo.
> >>
> >> (And that's despite the fact that the song "Bella Bimba" is reasonably
> >> well known to English speakers.)
> >>
> > Not in this part of the world.
> Curious. It was quite a hit for Dean Martin.
Ah. According to Wikipedia, it didn't reach the charts in the U.S. or UK, but
> On 28/09/22 16:17, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 6:30:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> >> Bimbo.
> >>
> >> (And that's despite the fact that the song "Bella Bimba" is reasonably
> >> well known to English speakers.)
> >>
> > Not in this part of the world.
> Curious. It was quite a hit for Dean Martin.
was number 8 in Australia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Martin_discography#Singles
--
Jerry Friedman
Ken Blake
Sep 28, 2022, 10:43:19 AM9/28/22
to
On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 18:18:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>there seems to have been some belief that explains why nouns with other
>endings from Italian and Spanish have gotten -o in English.
Perhaps that's the reason.
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 5:15:02 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> >> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>> >> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>> >>
>> >> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> >> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>> >> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>> >> when that was the case.
>> >
>> >English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
>
>> Some Italian words, not all. Most Italian nouns end in o if they are
>> masculine, or in a if they are feminine. But some nouns of both
>> genders end in e.
>
>That's why I put "know" in quotation marks. Of course it's not true, but
Ah, sorry to have misunderstood you.
>On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 5:15:02 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> >> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>> >> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>> >>
>> >> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> >> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>> >> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>> >> when that was the case.
>> >
>> >English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
>
>> Some Italian words, not all. Most Italian nouns end in o if they are
>> masculine, or in a if they are feminine. But some nouns of both
>> genders end in e.
>
>That's why I put "know" in quotation marks. Of course it's not true, but
>there seems to have been some belief that explains why nouns with other
>endings from Italian and Spanish have gotten -o in English.
Paul Carmichael
Sep 28, 2022, 11:06:53 AM9/28/22
to
Spanish. Potato is patata or papa over there.
Not that the pope looks anything like a potato.
--
Paul.
https://paulc.es/elpatio
Paul Carmichael
Sep 28, 2022, 11:14:23 AM9/28/22
to
El Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:57:04 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words into
masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us masculine).
Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I don't
know if they are all 4th decl.
--
Paul.
https://paulc.es/elpatio
Paul Carmichael
Sep 28, 2022, 11:19:45 AM9/28/22
to
El Tue, 27 Sep 2022 18:15:18 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
> In Academic Spanish, some such words for people can have either gender
> when referring to a specific person, according to the person's gender:
> el/la presidente, el/la canadense, etc.
Over here that is changing super rápidamente.
> In Academic Spanish, some such words for people can have either gender
> when referring to a specific person, according to the person's gender:
> el/la presidente, el/la canadense, etc.
Now there are presidentas, juezas, concejalas etc.
I wonder if we will soon have words like modela and pilota. Probably.
¿canadiense has no i over there?
--
Paul.
https://paulc.es/elpatio
Paul Carmichael
Sep 28, 2022, 11:21:16 AM9/28/22
to
El Wed, 28 Sep 2022 11:30:25 +1000, Peter Moylan escribió:
> On 28/09/22 08:57, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o. So
>> Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a complex
>> process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous process)
>> "avocado", and I think there are others.
>
> Bimbo.
Over here, Bimbo is the name of the bread that the English eat.
> On 28/09/22 08:57, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o. So
>> Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a complex
>> process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous process)
>> "avocado", and I think there are others.
>
> Bimbo.
--
Paul.
https://paulc.es/elpatio
Jerry Friedman
Sep 28, 2022, 11:22:47 AM9/28/22
to
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
Sep 28, 2022, 11:24:19 AM9/28/22
to
> Not that the pope looks anything like a potato.
--
Jerry Friedman
Bebercito
Sep 28, 2022, 11:32:34 AM9/28/22
to
Jerry Friedman
Sep 28, 2022, 11:42:05 AM9/28/22
to
On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 8:43:19 AM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 18:18:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 5:15:02 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> >> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> >> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
> >> >> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
> >> >> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
> >> >>
> >> >> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
> >> >> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
> >> >> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
> >> >> when that was the case.
> >> >
> >> >English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
> >
> >> Some Italian words, not all. Most Italian nouns end in o if they are
> >> masculine, or in a if they are feminine. But some nouns of both
> >> genders end in e.
> >
> >That's why I put "know" in quotation marks. Of course it's not true, but
> Ah, sorry to have misunderstood you.
Well, I put it in an exaggerated way that was easy to misunderstand.
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 18:18:38 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 5:15:02 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> >> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> >> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
> >> >> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
> >> >> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
> >> >>
> >> >> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
> >> >> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
> >> >> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
> >> >> when that was the case.
> >> >
> >> >English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
> >
> >> Some Italian words, not all. Most Italian nouns end in o if they are
> >> masculine, or in a if they are feminine. But some nouns of both
> >> genders end in e.
> >
> >That's why I put "know" in quotation marks. Of course it's not true, but
> Ah, sorry to have misunderstood you.
> >there seems to have been some belief that explains why nouns with other
> >endings from Italian and Spanish have gotten -o in English.
--
Jerry Friedman
musika
Sep 28, 2022, 11:45:02 AM9/28/22
to
--
Ray
UK
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 28, 2022, 12:08:20 PM9/28/22
to
On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 6:57:07 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o. So
> Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
> complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
> process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
The lawyers may have had something to do with that last one.
> English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o. So
> Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
> complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
> process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
Ken Blake
Sep 28, 2022, 12:30:58 PM9/28/22
to
On 28 Sep 2022 15:06:48 GMT, Paul Carmichael <wibble...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Let's call the whole thing off.
wrote:
Quinn C
Sep 28, 2022, 12:39:09 PM9/28/22
to
* Jerry Friedman:
> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 5:15:02 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>>>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>>>> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>>>> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>>>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>>>> when that was the case.
>>>
>>>English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
>
>> Some Italian words, not all. Most Italian nouns end in o if they are
>> masculine, or in a if they are feminine. But some nouns of both
>> genders end in e.
>
> That's why I put "know" in quotation marks. Of course it's not true, but
> there seems to have been some belief that explains why nouns with other
> endings from Italian and Spanish have gotten -o in English.
The problem with people isn't that they know so little, but that they
"know" so many things that ain't true.
--
George: You don't know these people. They find emotions disgusting.
They just want to have a good time and make jokes.
Mae: Oh, so they're British?
-- Feel Good
> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 5:15:02 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>>>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>>>> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>>>> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>>>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>>>> when that was the case.
>>>
>>>English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
>
>> Some Italian words, not all. Most Italian nouns end in o if they are
>> masculine, or in a if they are feminine. But some nouns of both
>> genders end in e.
>
> That's why I put "know" in quotation marks. Of course it's not true, but
> there seems to have been some belief that explains why nouns with other
> endings from Italian and Spanish have gotten -o in English.
"know" so many things that ain't true.
--
George: You don't know these people. They find emotions disgusting.
They just want to have a good time and make jokes.
Mae: Oh, so they're British?
-- Feel Good
Peter Moylan
Sep 28, 2022, 9:23:11 PM9/28/22
to
On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
> masculine).
>
> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
> masculine).
>
> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
When I was learning French, the word "cuiller" (spoon) had the same
problem. It looks masculine but it's feminine. In that case, though, the
French solved the problem by changing the spelling to "cuillère". I
don't know whether anyone still uses the old spelling.
bil...@shaw.ca
Sep 28, 2022, 11:09:00 PM9/28/22
to
On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 3:17:56 AM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 28/09/22 16:17, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 6:30:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> >> Bimbo.
> >>
> >> (And that's despite the fact that the song "Bella Bimba" is reasonably
> >> well known to English speakers.)
> >>
> > Not in this part of the world.
> Curious. It was quite a hit for Dean Martin.
>
(finds it on YouTube)
> On 28/09/22 16:17, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 6:30:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> >> Bimbo.
> >>
> >> (And that's despite the fact that the song "Bella Bimba" is reasonably
> >> well known to English speakers.)
> >>
> > Not in this part of the world.
> Curious. It was quite a hit for Dean Martin.
>
Strange. I used to hear Dean Martin on various TV variety shows, especially in the
1960s, but I don't recall that song.
bill
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Sep 29, 2022, 2:19:11 AM9/29/22
to
On 2022-09-29 01:23:02 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>> masculine).
>>
>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>
> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
Yes, but it's so well known that it doesn't cause many problems (like
> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>> masculine).
>>
>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>
> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
Spanish "mano", which is also feminine). The ones that took me a long
time to get straight are "foi" (faith, feminine) and "foie" (liver,
masculine).
>
> When I was learning French, the word "cuiller" (spoon) had the same
> problem. It looks masculine but it's feminine. In that case, though, the
> French solved the problem by changing the spelling to "cuillère". I
> don't know whether anyone still uses the old spelling.
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
> When I was learning French, the word "cuiller" (spoon) had the same
> problem. It looks masculine but it's feminine. In that case, though, the
> French solved the problem by changing the spelling to "cuillère". I
> don't know whether anyone still uses the old spelling.
--
Silvano
Sep 29, 2022, 4:16:40 AM9/29/22
to
Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
o in those languages.
French articles must be a bit of a nightmare for learners who do not
know any other Romance language, because French lost many final
consonants which are usually a good help for learners of Italian,
Spanish and Portuguese.
> When I was learning French, the word "cuiller" (spoon) had the same
> problem. It looks masculine but it's feminine.
I'd have fallen through, because the Italian "cucchiaio" (spoon) ist
masculine and similar words usually have the same gender, with the
notable exception of art (FR, m as in "art nouveau") / arte (IT, f) /
arte (ES, m).
> In that case, though, the
> French solved the problem by changing the spelling to "cuillère".
Clever!
> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>> masculine).
>>
>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>
> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
>
>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>> masculine).
>>
>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>
> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
o in those languages.
French articles must be a bit of a nightmare for learners who do not
know any other Romance language, because French lost many final
consonants which are usually a good help for learners of Italian,
Spanish and Portuguese.
> When I was learning French, the word "cuiller" (spoon) had the same
> problem. It looks masculine but it's feminine.
masculine and similar words usually have the same gender, with the
notable exception of art (FR, m as in "art nouveau") / arte (IT, f) /
arte (ES, m).
> In that case, though, the
> French solved the problem by changing the spelling to "cuillère".
Paul Carmichael
Sep 29, 2022, 4:30:59 AM9/29/22
to
El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 10:16:35 +0200, Silvano escribió:
> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>
>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>>> masculine).
>>>
>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>>
>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's
>> feminine,
>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>
> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
> o in those languages.
> French articles must be a bit of a nightmare for learners who do not
> know any other Romance language, because French lost many final
> consonants which are usually a good help for learners of Italian,
> Spanish and Portuguese.
A lot of the odd endings in romance languages are due to weirdness in
> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>
>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>>> masculine).
>>>
>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>>
>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's
>> feminine,
>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>
> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
> o in those languages.
> French articles must be a bit of a nightmare for learners who do not
> know any other Romance language, because French lost many final
> consonants which are usually a good help for learners of Italian,
> Spanish and Portuguese.
Latin. Like manus (mano) being feminine 4th declension. People are
confused by, for example, the plural of corpus (corpora) because it's 3rd
declension neuter and has a "masculine" ending.
In short, what did the Romans do for us?
--
Paul.
https://paulc.es/elpatio
Paul Wolff
Sep 29, 2022, 5:29:38 AM9/29/22
to
On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, at 08:19:05, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
bilious attacks. They're so unfashionable these days.)
--
Paul
>On 2022-09-29 01:23:02 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>
>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>>> masculine).
>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's
>>feminine,
>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>
>Yes, but it's so well known that it doesn't cause many problems (like
>Spanish "mano", which is also feminine). The ones that took me a long
>time to get straight are "foi" (faith, feminine) and "foie" (liver,
>masculine).
I just exclaim "Ma foi!" and the rest follows. (I don't suffer from
>
>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>
>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>>> masculine).
>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's
>>feminine,
>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>
>Yes, but it's so well known that it doesn't cause many problems (like
>Spanish "mano", which is also feminine). The ones that took me a long
>time to get straight are "foi" (faith, feminine) and "foie" (liver,
>masculine).
bilious attacks. They're so unfashionable these days.)
--
Paul
occam
Sep 29, 2022, 5:46:08 AM9/29/22
to
On 28/09/2022 00:57, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>>
>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>> when that was the case.
>
> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>>
>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>> when that was the case.
>
> English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o. So
> Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
> complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
> Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
> complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
> process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
>
Listening to to an episode of 'Wordaholics' (BBC Radio 4) the etymology
>
of 'avocado' was traced back to 'testicles' ('ahuakatl' in Aztecan). I
am relieved that "aguacate" is masculine in Spanish.
occam
Sep 29, 2022, 5:48:06 AM9/29/22
to
Adam Funk
Sep 29, 2022, 6:15:08 AM9/29/22
to
On 2022-09-27, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>>
>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>> when that was the case.
>
> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 3:52:20 PM UTC-6, Ken Blake wrote:
>> The English word "grotto" comes from the Italian. But the Italian word
>> is the feminine "grotta" ("grotto" would be masculine). For example
>> the blue grotto in Capri is "grotta azzura" in Italian.
>>
>> Does anyone know why the English word differs in gender from the
>> Italian? I couldn't find out with a web search, but my guess is that
>> the Italian word used to be "grotto" and it came into English back
>> when that was the case.
>
> English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o. So
> Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
> complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
> process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
IIRC, "sweet potato" is a retronym.
> Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through a
> complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a tortuous
> process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
--
There is no Internet of Things. There are only many unpatched,
vulnerable, small computers on the Internet.
@netik
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Sep 29, 2022, 7:12:47 AM9/29/22
to
On 2022-09-29 08:16:35 +0000, Silvano said:
> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>
>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>>> masculine).
>>>
>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>>
>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>
> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
> o in those languages.
> French articles must be a bit of a nightmare for learners who do not
> know any other Romance language, because French lost many final
> consonants which are usually a good help for learners of Italian,
> Spanish and Portuguese.
Oh yes. When I don't know the gender of a French noun (that is to say,
> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>
>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>>> masculine).
>>>
>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>>
>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>
> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
> o in those languages.
> French articles must be a bit of a nightmare for learners who do not
> know any other Romance language, because French lost many final
> consonants which are usually a good help for learners of Italian,
> Spanish and Portuguese.
usually) I try to think of its cognate in Spanish. That gives the right
answer most of the time.
>
>> When I was learning French, the word "cuiller" (spoon) had the same
>> problem. It looks masculine but it's feminine.
>
> I'd have fallen through, because the Italian "cucchiaio" (spoon) ist
> masculine and similar words usually have the same gender, with the
> notable exception of art (FR, m as in "art nouveau") / arte (IT, f) /
> arte (ES, m).
>
>
>
>> In that case, though, the
>> French solved the problem by changing the spelling to "cuillère".
>
> Clever!
>> When I was learning French, the word "cuiller" (spoon) had the same
>> problem. It looks masculine but it's feminine.
>
> I'd have fallen through, because the Italian "cucchiaio" (spoon) ist
> masculine and similar words usually have the same gender, with the
> notable exception of art (FR, m as in "art nouveau") / arte (IT, f) /
> arte (ES, m).
>
>
>
>> In that case, though, the
>> French solved the problem by changing the spelling to "cuillère".
>
> Clever!
Adam Funk
Sep 29, 2022, 8:00:08 AM9/29/22
to
On 2022-09-29, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-09-29 08:16:35 +0000, Silvano said:
>
>> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
>>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>
>>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>>>> masculine).
>>>>
>>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>>>
>>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
>>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>>
>> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
>> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
>> o in those languages.
>> French articles must be a bit of a nightmare for learners who do not
>> know any other Romance language, because French lost many final
>> consonants which are usually a good help for learners of Italian,
>> Spanish and Portuguese.
>
> Oh yes. When I don't know the gender of a French noun (that is to say,
> usually) I try to think of its cognate in Spanish. That gives the right
> answer most of the time.
ISTR that there are exceptions but I cannot remember any of them.
> On 2022-09-29 08:16:35 +0000, Silvano said:
>
>> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
>>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>
>>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>>>> masculine).
>>>>
>>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>>>
>>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
>>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>>
>> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
>> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
>> o in those languages.
>> French articles must be a bit of a nightmare for learners who do not
>> know any other Romance language, because French lost many final
>> consonants which are usually a good help for learners of Italian,
>> Spanish and Portuguese.
>
> Oh yes. When I don't know the gender of a French noun (that is to say,
> usually) I try to think of its cognate in Spanish. That gives the right
> answer most of the time.
>>> When I was learning French, the word "cuiller" (spoon) had the same
>>> problem. It looks masculine but it's feminine.
>>
>> I'd have fallen through, because the Italian "cucchiaio" (spoon) ist
>> masculine and similar words usually have the same gender, with the
>> notable exception of art (FR, m as in "art nouveau") / arte (IT, f) /
>> arte (ES, m).
>>
>>
>>
>>> In that case, though, the
>>> French solved the problem by changing the spelling to "cuillère".
>>
>> Clever!
>
>
--
Jerry Friedman
Sep 29, 2022, 8:37:19 AM9/29/22
to
it.
> (I don't suffer from
> bilious attacks. They're so unfashionable these days.)
of indigestion.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
Sep 29, 2022, 8:39:27 AM9/29/22
to
is in English?
--
Jerry Friedman
Paul Carmichael
Sep 29, 2022, 9:45:39 AM9/29/22
to
El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 05:39:24 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
<salvaje>
> Thanks, though is that noun now as uncommon in Spanish as "savage"
> is in English?
In Spain it is used to mean wild/uncouth etc. So more adjective than noun.
https://dle.rae.es/salvaje?m=form
Seems to originate in Occitan.
--
Paul.
https://paulc.es/elpatio
<salvaje>
> Thanks, though is that noun now as uncommon in Spanish as "savage"
> is in English?
https://dle.rae.es/salvaje?m=form
Seems to originate in Occitan.
--
Paul.
https://paulc.es/elpatio
Peter Moylan
Sep 29, 2022, 9:46:53 AM9/29/22
to
On 29/09/22 22:37, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 3:29:38 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, at 08:19:05, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
>>> On 2022-09-29 01:23:02 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>>
>>>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes
>>>>> looks more like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all
>>>>> Latin neuter words into masculine by changing the -um to -o
>>>>> (as well as the -us masculine). Strangely it also happens to
>>>>> some feminine words, such as manus. I don't know if they are
>>>>> all 4th decl.
>>>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's
>>>> feminine, but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>>>
>>> Yes, but it's so well known that it doesn't cause many problems
>>> (like Spanish "mano", which is also feminine). The ones that took
>>> me a long time to get straight are "foi" (faith, feminine) and
>>> "foie" (liver, masculine).
>
>> I just exclaim "Ma foi!" and the rest follows.
>
> And the gender of "foie" follows from "foie gras", not that I've ever
> tasted it.
Here I would like to recommend the SF short story "Paté de foie gras".
> On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 3:29:38 AM UTC-6, Paul Wolff
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2022, at 08:19:05, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
>>> On 2022-09-29 01:23:02 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>>
>>>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes
>>>>> looks more like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all
>>>>> Latin neuter words into masculine by changing the -um to -o
>>>>> (as well as the -us masculine). Strangely it also happens to
>>>>> some feminine words, such as manus. I don't know if they are
>>>>> all 4th decl.
>>>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's
>>>> feminine, but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>>>
>>> Yes, but it's so well known that it doesn't cause many problems
>>> (like Spanish "mano", which is also feminine). The ones that took
>>> me a long time to get straight are "foi" (faith, feminine) and
>>> "foie" (liver, masculine).
>
>> I just exclaim "Ma foi!" and the rest follows.
>
> And the gender of "foie" follows from "foie gras", not that I've ever
> tasted it.
Asimov, I think.
>> (I don't suffer from bilious attacks. They're so unfashionable
>> these days.)
>
> I always liked the implication that a crisis of faith was really an
> episode of indigestion.
centuries. It was, I believe, once in the liver. It has also been in the
heart, probably the kidneys, and perhaps in a few other places. The move
to the brain is a relatively recent development.
Peter Moylan
Sep 29, 2022, 10:02:25 AM9/29/22
to
On 29/09/22 21:12, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-09-29 08:16:35 +0000, Silvano said:
>
>> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
>>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>
>>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes
>>>> looks more like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all
>>>> Latin neuter words into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as
>>>> well as the -us masculine).
>>>>
>>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as
>>>> manus. I don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>>>
>>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's
>>> feminine, but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>>
>> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
>> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words
>> ending in o in those languages. French articles must be a bit of a
>> nightmare for learners who do not know any other Romance language,
>> because French lost many final consonants which are usually a good
>> help for learners of Italian, Spanish and Portuguese.
>
> Oh yes. When I don't know the gender of a French noun (that is to
> say, usually) I try to think of its cognate in Spanish. That gives
> the right answer most of the time.
There are more hints than one might guess. Yes, it's true that a final
> On 2022-09-29 08:16:35 +0000, Silvano said:
>
>> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
>>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>>
>>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes
>>>> looks more like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all
>>>> Latin neuter words into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as
>>>> well as the -us masculine).
>>>>
>>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as
>>>> manus. I don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>>>
>>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's
>>> feminine, but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>>
>> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
>> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words
>> ending in o in those languages. French articles must be a bit of a
>> nightmare for learners who do not know any other Romance language,
>> because French lost many final consonants which are usually a good
>> help for learners of Italian, Spanish and Portuguese.
>
> Oh yes. When I don't know the gender of a French noun (that is to
> say, usually) I try to think of its cognate in Spanish. That gives
> the right answer most of the time.
"e" on a noun is a good guide to French gender, but there are other
clues. For example, a final -ion in a French word usually means that
it's feminine. In addition, most words for machinery are feminine. There
are certainly other clues that I've forgotten.
>>> When I was learning French, the word "cuiller" (spoon) had the
>>> same problem. It looks masculine but it's feminine.
>>
>> I'd have fallen through, because the Italian "cucchiaio" (spoon)
>> ist masculine and similar words usually have the same gender, with
>> the notable exception of art (FR, m as in "art nouveau") / arte
>> (IT, f) / arte (ES, m).
gender in its successor languages.
I once had a Brazilian colleague who had spent some time working in
France. He claimed that the most difficult part of French for him were
words that had different gender in French and Portuguese.
>>> In that case, though, the French solved the problem by changing
>>> the spelling to "cuillère".
>>
>> Clever!
pronunciation, even back when "cuiller" was the spelling. The spelling
revision made the word more consistent with its pronunciation. I don't
know when the pronunciation changed. Bebercito might know, but I don't
know whether he is reading this thread.
Peter Moylan
Sep 29, 2022, 10:04:55 AM9/29/22
to
"patate" in parts of the south. As I've heard it, that word is more
likely to refer to female buttocks than to vegetables.
Peter Moylan
Sep 29, 2022, 10:07:35 AM9/29/22
to
feminine, and le con (cunt) is masculine.
Ken Blake
Sep 29, 2022, 10:36:50 AM9/29/22
to
On Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:19:05 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>On 2022-09-29 01:23:02 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>
>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>>> masculine).
>>>
>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>>
>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>
>Yes, but it's so well known that it doesn't cause many problems (like
>Spanish "mano", which is also feminine).
The Italian "mano" is also feminine.
<acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>On 2022-09-29 01:23:02 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>
>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
>>> masculine).
>>>
>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
>>
>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
>
>Yes, but it's so well known that it doesn't cause many problems (like
>Spanish "mano", which is also feminine).
Ken Blake
Sep 29, 2022, 10:40:52 AM9/29/22
to
Bebercito
Sep 29, 2022, 10:43:05 AM9/29/22
to
change from "cuiller" hasn't been prescribed in the "réforme". Note that
"cuiller" is one of only two feminine nouns ending in -er -- the other is "mer"
but, for obvious reasons, it can't be alternatively spelled "mère".
Bebercito
Sep 29, 2022, 10:59:59 AM9/29/22
to
Le jeudi 29 septembre 2022 à 10:16:40 UTC+2, Silvano a écrit :
> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
> > On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> >
> >> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
> >> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
> >> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
> >> masculine).
> >>
> >> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
> >> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
> >
> > The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
> > but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
> o in those languages.
Because with nouns -ain is a specifically masculine ending (bain, gain, etc.),
> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
> > On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> >
> >> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
> >> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
> >> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
> >> masculine).
> >>
> >> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
> >> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
> >
> > The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
> > but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
> o in those languages.
and with adjectives, it changes to -aine for the feminine (urbain -> urbaine).
Bebercito
Sep 29, 2022, 11:06:47 AM9/29/22
to
Le jeudi 29 septembre 2022 à 14:00:08 UTC+2, Adam Funk a écrit :
> On 2022-09-29, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> > On 2022-09-29 08:16:35 +0000, Silvano said:
> >
> >> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
> >>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
> >>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
> >>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
> >>>> masculine).
> >>>>
> >>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
> >>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
> >>>
> >>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
> >>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
> >>
> >> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
> >> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
> >> o in those languages.
> >> French articles must be a bit of a nightmare for learners who do not
> >> know any other Romance language, because French lost many final
> >> consonants which are usually a good help for learners of Italian,
> >> Spanish and Portuguese.
> >
> > Oh yes. When I don't know the gender of a French noun (that is to say,
> > usually) I try to think of its cognate in Spanish. That gives the right
> > answer most of the time.
> ISTR that there are exceptions but I cannot remember any of them.
"Tomate" springs to mind.
> On 2022-09-29, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> > On 2022-09-29 08:16:35 +0000, Silvano said:
> >
> >> Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 03:23 geschrieben:
> >>> On 29/09/22 01:14, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Slight thread swerve, but this is where English sometimes looks more
> >>>> like Latin than Spanish does. Spanish converts all Latin neuter words
> >>>> into masculine by changing the -um to -o (as well as the -us
> >>>> masculine).
> >>>>
> >>>> Strangely it also happens to some feminine words, such as manus. I
> >>>> don't know if they are all 4th decl.
> >>>
> >>> The same word (la main) is a trap for learners of French. It's feminine,
> >>> but it looks as if it ought to be masculine.
> >>
> >> Why? I'd understand you if you were talking about the Italian and
> >> Spanish "mano", ending in "o" but feminine, unlike most words ending in
> >> o in those languages.
> >> French articles must be a bit of a nightmare for learners who do not
> >> know any other Romance language, because French lost many final
> >> consonants which are usually a good help for learners of Italian,
> >> Spanish and Portuguese.
> >
> > Oh yes. When I don't know the gender of a French noun (that is to say,
> > usually) I try to think of its cognate in Spanish. That gives the right
> > answer most of the time.
> ISTR that there are exceptions but I cannot remember any of them.
Bebercito
Sep 29, 2022, 11:14:29 AM9/29/22
to
Le jeudi 29 septembre 2022 à 16:04:55 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 29/09/22 19:48, occam wrote:
> > On 28/09/2022 18:08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 6:57:07 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
> >>> So Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through
> >>> a complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a
> >>> tortuous process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
> >>
> >> The lawyers may have had something to do with that last one.
> >
> > Balls!
> Which reminds me that potato is "pomme de terre" in most of France, but
> "patate" in parts of the south.
"Patate" is used colloquially for "pomme de terre" in the whole of France.
> On 29/09/22 19:48, occam wrote:
> > On 28/09/2022 18:08, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 6:57:07 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> English speakers "know" that Spanish and Italian words end in -o.
> >>> So Spanish "tomate" becomes "tomato", "batata" becomes (through
> >>> a complex process) "potato", "aguacate" becomes (through a
> >>> tortuous process) "avocado", and I think there are others.
> >>
> >> The lawyers may have had something to do with that last one.
> >
> > Balls!
> Which reminds me that potato is "pomme de terre" in most of France, but
> "patate" in parts of the south.
> As I've heard it, that word is more
> likely to refer to female buttocks than to vegetables.
Peter Moylan
Sep 29, 2022, 11:25:21 AM9/29/22
to
France close to Italy.
Bebercito
Sep 29, 2022, 11:27:49 AM9/29/22
to
("bite" does), but "vagin" (the counterpart of "verge") is indeed masculine
(whereas Latin "vagina" is feminine).
Jerry Friedman
Sep 29, 2022, 11:38:08 AM9/29/22
to
I feel sure that the word Peter M. read was not "vagen" but might have
been "vaghen".
Spanish "verga", one of many feminine words for the penis, is vulgar,
at least around here.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Sep 29, 2022, 11:58:33 AM9/29/22
to
Bertel Lund Hansen
Sep 29, 2022, 11:59:41 AM9/29/22
to
Den 29.09.2022 kl. 16.02 skrev Peter Moylan:
> There are more hints than one might guess. Yes, it's true that a final
> "e" on a noun is a good guide to French gender, but there are other
> clues. For example, a final -ion in a French word usually means that
> it's feminine.
Usually? I see that as the only stable language rule, and it works
> There are more hints than one might guess. Yes, it's true that a final
> "e" on a noun is a good guide to French gender, but there are other
> clues. For example, a final -ion in a French word usually means that
> it's feminine.
across languages.
--
Bertel
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 29, 2022, 1:24:02 PM9/29/22
to
On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 10:07:35 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Do not be fooled by grammatical gender. In French, la verge (penis) is
> feminine, and le con (cunt) is masculine.
Le soleil, die Sonne; la lune, der Mond.
> Do not be fooled by grammatical gender. In French, la verge (penis) is
> feminine, and le con (cunt) is masculine.
Different mythologies, different pantheons.
Paul Wolff
Sep 29, 2022, 4:55:23 PM9/29/22
to
On Fri, 30 Sep 2022, at 00:02:18, Peter Moylan posted:
>On 29/09/22 21:12, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> Oh yes. When I don't know the gender of a French noun (that is to
>> say, usually) I try to think of its cognate in Spanish. That gives
>> the right answer most of the time.
>
>There are more hints than one might guess. Yes, it's true that a final
>"e" on a noun is a good guide to French gender, but there are other
>clues. For example, a final -ion in a French word usually means that
>it's feminine.
-sion, -tion and -xion were the three feminine French -ion noun endings
>On 29/09/22 21:12, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> Oh yes. When I don't know the gender of a French noun (that is to
>> say, usually) I try to think of its cognate in Spanish. That gives
>> the right answer most of the time.
>
>There are more hints than one might guess. Yes, it's true that a final
>"e" on a noun is a good guide to French gender, but there are other
>clues. For example, a final -ion in a French word usually means that
>it's feminine.
drummed into my poor little head at school. Avion, for example, doesn't
fit that pattern and is masculine (as we all know).
>In addition, most words for machinery are feminine. There
>are certainly other clues that I've forgotten.
--
Paul
Sam Plusnet
Sep 29, 2022, 4:59:11 PM9/29/22
to
On 29-Sep-22 16:25, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 30/09/22 01:14, Bebercito wrote:
>> Le jeudi 29 septembre 2022 à 16:04:55 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>
>> "Patate" is used colloquially for "pomme de terre" in the whole of
>> France.
>>
>>> As I've heard it, that word is more likely to refer to female
>>> buttocks than to vegetables.
>>
>> ? I've never heard it in that sense. (A belgicism, maybe?)
>
> An Italisanisme, I suspect, because I gather it's used in those parts of
> France close to Italy.
>
I read (but don't necessarily believe) a claim by David Crystal that
> On 30/09/22 01:14, Bebercito wrote:
>> Le jeudi 29 septembre 2022 à 16:04:55 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>
>> "Patate" is used colloquially for "pomme de terre" in the whole of
>> France.
>>
>>> As I've heard it, that word is more likely to refer to female
>>> buttocks than to vegetables.
>>
>> ? I've never heard it in that sense. (A belgicism, maybe?)
>
> An Italisanisme, I suspect, because I gather it's used in those parts of
> France close to Italy.
>
Australian's may use "potato" as a slang term where:
"potato" = "potato peeler" = "Sheila".
Seems unlikely to me.
--
Sam Plusnet
Jerry Friedman
Sep 29, 2022, 5:12:22 PM9/29/22
to
Not necessarily from Latin, but something reminded me today of French
"la flûte", Spanish "la flauta", Italian "il flauto".
--
Jerry Friedman
Silvano
Sep 29, 2022, 5:12:28 PM9/29/22
to
Peter Moylan hat am 29.09.2022 um 17:25 geschrieben:
admit that I don't know, because "patata" is Italian, but Spanish too.
See e.g. <https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patatas_bravas>
But I can tell you that "patate" for female buttocks is NOT an Italianism.
> On 30/09/22 01:14, Bebercito wrote:
>> Le jeudi 29 septembre 2022 à 16:04:55 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>
>> "Patate" is used colloquially for "pomme de terre" in the whole of
>> France.
>>
>>> As I've heard it, that word is more likely to refer to female
>>> buttocks than to vegetables.
>>
>> ? I've never heard it in that sense. (A belgicism, maybe?)
>
> An Italisanisme, I suspect, because I gather it's used in those parts of
> France close to Italy.
If you mean that "patate" for "pomme de terre" is an Italianism, I must
>> Le jeudi 29 septembre 2022 à 16:04:55 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>
>> "Patate" is used colloquially for "pomme de terre" in the whole of
>> France.
>>
>>> As I've heard it, that word is more likely to refer to female
>>> buttocks than to vegetables.
>>
>> ? I've never heard it in that sense. (A belgicism, maybe?)
>
> An Italisanisme, I suspect, because I gather it's used in those parts of
> France close to Italy.
admit that I don't know, because "patata" is Italian, but Spanish too.
See e.g. <https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patatas_bravas>
But I can tell you that "patate" for female buttocks is NOT an Italianism.
Jerry Friedman
Sep 29, 2022, 5:17:02 PM9/29/22
to
masculine words such as "pion" 'pawn (chess), monitor or proctor in a
high school' (I just learned that meaning) and "camion" 'truck'.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
Sep 29, 2022, 8:21:55 PM9/29/22
to
On 30/09/22 06:59, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> I read (but don't necessarily believe) a claim by David Crystal that
> Australian's may use "potato" as a slang term where:
>
> "potato" = "potato peeler" = "Sheila".
>
> Seems unlikely to me.
And to me. I'd never heard of that one.
> I read (but don't necessarily believe) a claim by David Crystal that
> Australian's may use "potato" as a slang term where:
>
> "potato" = "potato peeler" = "Sheila".
>
> Seems unlikely to me.
Bebercito
Sep 30, 2022, 1:09:14 AM9/30/22
to
Le jeudi 29 septembre 2022 à 15:45:39 UTC+2, Paul Carmichael a écrit :
> El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 05:39:24 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
>
>
> <salvaje>
> > Thanks, though is that noun now as uncommon in Spanish as "savage"
> > is in English?
> In Spain it is used to mean wild/uncouth etc. So more adjective than noun.
>
> https://dle.rae.es/salvaje?m=form
The usage as a noun is mentioned elsewhere, but how common it is is not
> El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 05:39:24 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
>
>
> <salvaje>
> > Thanks, though is that noun now as uncommon in Spanish as "savage"
> > is in English?
> In Spain it is used to mean wild/uncouth etc. So more adjective than noun.
>
> https://dle.rae.es/salvaje?m=form
specified:
---
salvaje
sustantivo
1. persona que tiene una forma de vida primitiva Ciertos salvajes del Amazonas
practicaban canibalismo.
2. persona que es violenta e ignorante Su esposo era uno de esos salvajes que
cree que todo se soluciona por la fuerza.
3. persona que se opone a ciertos valores que se consideran importantes en una
sociedad Unos salvajes destrozaron los vidrios del colegio.
4. persona que comete actos crueles y violentos Esos asesinos son unos salvajes.
https://es.thefreedictionary.com/salvajes
---
Bertel Lund Hansen
Sep 30, 2022, 1:17:32 AM9/30/22
to
Den 29.09.2022 kl. 23.16 skrev Jerry Friedman:
>> Usually? I see that as the only stable language rule, and it works
>> across languages.
> I imagine it works for words from the Latin suffix -tio, but there are
> masculine words such as "pion" 'pawn (chess), monitor or proctor in a
> high school' (I just learned that meaning) and "camion" 'truck'.
And there's the chemical ion, but neither of those words qualify for the
>> Usually? I see that as the only stable language rule, and it works
>> across languages.
> I imagine it works for words from the Latin suffix -tio, but there are
> masculine words such as "pion" 'pawn (chess), monitor or proctor in a
> high school' (I just learned that meaning) and "camion" 'truck'.
hyphen in -ion.
Well okay, a person might not know which words are born with ion and
which have had it appended.
--
Bertel
Paul Carmichael
Sep 30, 2022, 3:33:26 AM9/30/22
to
El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:38:05 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
> Spanish "verga", one of many feminine words for the penis, is vulgar, at
> least around here.
It also has several other meanings (pole, latch etc.)
> Spanish "verga", one of many feminine words for the penis, is vulgar, at
> least around here.
--
Paul.
https://paulc.es/elpatio
Adam Funk
Sep 30, 2022, 7:30:08 AM9/30/22
to
On 2022-09-30, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:38:05 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
>
>
>> Spanish "verga", one of many feminine words for the penis, is vulgar, at
>> least around here.
>
>
> It also has several other meanings (pole, latch etc.)
I think most words for "penis" other than "penis" itself have other
> El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:38:05 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
>
>
>> Spanish "verga", one of many feminine words for the penis, is vulgar, at
>> least around here.
>
>
> It also has several other meanings (pole, latch etc.)
meanings.
Maude: My art has been commended as being strongly vaginal. Which
bothers some men. The word itself makes some men
uncomfortable. Vagina.
Dude: Oh yeah?
Maude: Yes, they don't like hearing it and find it difficult to say.
Whereas without batting an eye a man will refer to his "dick"
or his "rod" or his "Johnson".
--
The stakes are high and so am I
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Sep 30, 2022, 8:54:39 AM9/30/22
to
vagina isn't.
Paul Carmichael
Sep 30, 2022, 9:12:10 AM9/30/22
to
El Fri, 30 Sep 2022 12:22:09 +0100, Adam Funk escribió:
> On 2022-09-30, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>> El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:38:05 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
>>
>>
>>> Spanish "verga", one of many feminine words for the penis, is vulgar,
>>> at least around here.
>>
>>
>> It also has several other meanings (pole, latch etc.)
>
> I think most words for "penis" other than "penis" itself have other
> meanings.
>
>
> Maude: My art has been commended as being strongly vaginal. Which
> bothers some men. The word itself makes some men uncomfortable.
> Vagina.
vāgīna
> On 2022-09-30, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>> El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:38:05 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
>>
>>
>>> Spanish "verga", one of many feminine words for the penis, is vulgar,
>>> at least around here.
>>
>>
>> It also has several other meanings (pole, latch etc.)
>
> I think most words for "penis" other than "penis" itself have other
> meanings.
>
>
> Maude: My art has been commended as being strongly vaginal. Which
> bothers some men. The word itself makes some men uncomfortable.
> Vagina.
feminine noun I declension
sheath, scabbard
--
Paul.
https://paulc.es/elpatio
Jerry Friedman
Sep 30, 2022, 9:32:32 AM9/30/22
to
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
Sep 30, 2022, 10:19:41 AM9/30/22
to
On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 4:55:23 PM UTC-4, Paul Wolff wrote:
> British machines are usually feminine, if given a personal pronoun.
The word has "she" right inside it!
> British machines are usually feminine, if given a personal pronoun.
Bebercito
Sep 30, 2022, 10:27:56 AM9/30/22
to
>
>
> --
> Paul.
>
> https://paulc.es/elpatio
Ken Blake
Sep 30, 2022, 10:57:34 AM9/30/22
to
On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 07:27:53 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
<bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
>Le vendredi 30 septembre 2022 à 15:12:10 UTC+2, Paul Carmichael a écrit :
>> El Fri, 30 Sep 2022 12:22:09 +0100, Adam Funk escribió:
>>
>> > On 2022-09-30, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> >
>> >> El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:38:05 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Spanish "verga", one of many feminine words for the penis, is vulgar,
>> >>> at least around here.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It also has several other meanings (pole, latch etc.)
>> >
>> > I think most words for "penis" other than "penis" itself have other
>> > meanings.
>> >
>> >
>> > Maude: My art has been commended as being strongly vaginal. Which
>> > bothers some men. The word itself makes some men uncomfortable.
>> > Vagina.
>> v?g?na
<bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
>Le vendredi 30 septembre 2022 à 15:12:10 UTC+2, Paul Carmichael a écrit :
>> El Fri, 30 Sep 2022 12:22:09 +0100, Adam Funk escribió:
>>
>> > On 2022-09-30, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> >
>> >> El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:38:05 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Spanish "verga", one of many feminine words for the penis, is vulgar,
>> >>> at least around here.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It also has several other meanings (pole, latch etc.)
>> >
>> > I think most words for "penis" other than "penis" itself have other
>> > meanings.
>> >
>> >
>> > Maude: My art has been commended as being strongly vaginal. Which
>> > bothers some men. The word itself makes some men uncomfortable.
>> > Vagina.
>> feminine noun I declension
>>
>> sheath, scabbard
>
>Yes - in keeping with slang "dagger" or "sword" for "penis".
I've never seen nor heard either of those.
>>
>> sheath, scabbard
>
>Yes - in keeping with slang "dagger" or "sword" for "penis".
Adam Funk
Sep 30, 2022, 11:30:07 AM9/30/22
to
--
I love you like sin, but I won't be your pigeon
Paul Carmichael
Sep 30, 2022, 11:47:01 AM9/30/22
to
I've not heard either of those. Weapon, maybe.
I wonder how many Spanish speakers realise that the word for sheath is
just vagina with the g taken out to make it different.
https://dle.rae.es/vaina
vaina
Del lat. vagīna.
1. f. Funda ajustada para armas blancas o instrumentos cortantes o
punzantes.
I first encountered this word when working with a water heater (the
elements sit inside a metal sheath to keep them dry).
https://cvc.cervantes.es/el_rinconete/anteriores/abril_02/03042002_03.htm
Says the Romans called a willy a gladius, so maybe you were referring to
that?
--
Paul.
https://paulc.es/elpatio
Bebercito
Sep 30, 2022, 12:54:07 PM9/30/22
to
of the Latin etymon "vagina" is based on a syncope (elision of the <g>)
and the French one on an apheresis (elision of the 1st syllable), which
seems to be a pretty rare case of different derivations.
>
> https://cvc.cervantes.es/el_rinconete/anteriores/abril_02/03042002_03.htm
>
> Says the Romans called a willy a gladius, so maybe you were referring to
> that?
https://namingschemes.com/Penis_Synonyms
>
> --
> Paul.
>
> https://paulc.es/elpatio
Bertel Lund Hansen
Sep 30, 2022, 1:01:14 PM9/30/22
to
Den 30.09.2022 kl. 17.46 skrev Paul Carmichael:
> I wonder how many Spanish speakers realise that the word for sheath is
> just vagina with the g taken out to make it different.
In Danish the word "skede" has both meanings.
> I wonder how many Spanish speakers realise that the word for sheath is
> just vagina with the g taken out to make it different.
--
Bertel
Ken Blake
Sep 30, 2022, 1:49:57 PM9/30/22
to
On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 09:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
<bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
>Le vendredi 30 septembre 2022 à 17:47:01 UTC+2, Paul Carmichael a écrit :
>> El Fri, 30 Sep 2022 07:27:53 -0700, Bebercito escribió:
>>
>> > Le vendredi 30 septembre 2022 à 15:12:10 UTC+2, Paul Carmichael a
>> > écrit :
>> >> El Fri, 30 Sep 2022 12:22:09 +0100, Adam Funk escribió:
>> >>
>> >> > On 2022-09-30, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:38:05 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Spanish "verga", one of many feminine words for the penis, is
>> >> >>> vulgar,
>> >> >>> at least around here.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It also has several other meanings (pole, latch etc.)
>> >> >
>> >> > I think most words for "penis" other than "penis" itself have other
>> >> > meanings.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Maude: My art has been commended as being strongly vaginal. Which
>> >> > bothers some men. The word itself makes some men uncomfortable.
>> >> > Vagina.
>> >> v?g?na feminine noun I declension
<bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
>Le vendredi 30 septembre 2022 à 17:47:01 UTC+2, Paul Carmichael a écrit :
>> El Fri, 30 Sep 2022 07:27:53 -0700, Bebercito escribió:
>>
>> > Le vendredi 30 septembre 2022 à 15:12:10 UTC+2, Paul Carmichael a
>> > écrit :
>> >> El Fri, 30 Sep 2022 12:22:09 +0100, Adam Funk escribió:
>> >>
>> >> > On 2022-09-30, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> El Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:38:05 -0700, Jerry Friedman escribió:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Spanish "verga", one of many feminine words for the penis, is
>> >> >>> vulgar,
>> >> >>> at least around here.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It also has several other meanings (pole, latch etc.)
>> >> >
>> >> > I think most words for "penis" other than "penis" itself have other
>> >> > meanings.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Maude: My art has been commended as being strongly vaginal. Which
>> >> > bothers some men. The word itself makes some men uncomfortable.
>> >> > Vagina.
>> >>
>> >> sheath, scabbard
>> >
>> > Yes - in keeping with slang "dagger" or "sword" for "penis".
>> <snips own sig>
>>
>> I've not heard either of those. Weapon, maybe.
>>
>> I wonder how many Spanish speakers realise that the word for sheath is
>> just vagina with the g taken out to make it different.
>>
>> https://dle.rae.es/vaina
>>
>> vaina
>> Del lat. vag?na.
>> >> sheath, scabbard
>> >
>> > Yes - in keeping with slang "dagger" or "sword" for "penis".
>> <snips own sig>
>>
>> I've not heard either of those. Weapon, maybe.
>>
>> I wonder how many Spanish speakers realise that the word for sheath is
>> just vagina with the g taken out to make it different.
>>
>> https://dle.rae.es/vaina
>>
>> vaina
>>
>> 1. f. Funda ajustada para armas blancas o instrumentos cortantes o
>> punzantes.
>>
>> I first encountered this word when working with a water heater (the
>> elements sit inside a metal sheath to keep them dry).
>
>The French cognate of "vaina" is "gaine", so that the Spanish derivative
>of the Latin etymon "vagina" is based on a syncope (elision of the <g>)
>and the French one on an apheresis (elision of the 1st syllable), which
>seems to be a pretty rare case of different derivations.
>
>>
>> https://cvc.cervantes.es/el_rinconete/anteriores/abril_02/03042002_03.htm
>>
>> Says the Romans called a willy a gladius, so maybe you were referring to
>> that?
>
>No, I've seen the two words in lists of slang words, e.g.
>
>https://namingschemes.com/Penis_Synonyms
Out of curiosity, I just looked at that list. I found what I expected
>> 1. f. Funda ajustada para armas blancas o instrumentos cortantes o
>> punzantes.
>>
>> I first encountered this word when working with a water heater (the
>> elements sit inside a metal sheath to keep them dry).
>
>The French cognate of "vaina" is "gaine", so that the Spanish derivative
>of the Latin etymon "vagina" is based on a syncope (elision of the <g>)
>and the French one on an apheresis (elision of the 1st syllable), which
>seems to be a pretty rare case of different derivations.
>
>>
>> https://cvc.cervantes.es/el_rinconete/anteriores/abril_02/03042002_03.htm
>>
>> Says the Romans called a willy a gladius, so maybe you were referring to
>> that?
>
>No, I've seen the two words in lists of slang words, e.g.
>
>https://namingschemes.com/Penis_Synonyms
to find: no more than 5 or 10 of them were terms I've heard or seen.
Ken Blake
Sep 30, 2022, 1:59:31 PM9/30/22
to
On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 10:49:53 -0700, Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com>
wrote:
Still curious, I went back again and counted the familiar ones this
time. Ten were familiar. Of the other 189, I could probably understand
only a third of them if I heard someone using them (unless the context
made it clear).
My guess is that the list was made by someone who thought that if he
could find a single example of its being used in a book, it deserved
to be added to the list.
wrote:
time. Ten were familiar. Of the other 189, I could probably understand
only a third of them if I heard someone using them (unless the context
made it clear).
My guess is that the list was made by someone who thought that if he
could find a single example of its being used in a book, it deserved
to be added to the list.
Sam Plusnet
Sep 30, 2022, 2:03:42 PM9/30/22
to
On 30-Sep-22 1:21, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 30/09/22 06:59, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> I read[1] (but don't necessarily believe) a claim by David Crystal that
> On 30/09/22 06:59, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> Australian's may use "potato" as a slang term where:
>>
>> "potato" = "potato peeler" = "Sheila".
>>
>> Seems unlikely to me.
>
> And to me. I'd never heard of that one.
>
The only reason I mention it is that Mr Crystal ought to be a reliable
>>
>> "potato" = "potato peeler" = "Sheila".
>>
>> Seems unlikely to me.
>
> And to me. I'd never heard of that one.
>
source on matters linguistic.
[1]The Story of English in 100 Words. Pub. 2011.
--
Sam Plusnet
Bertel Lund Hansen
Oct 1, 2022, 1:36:36 AM10/1/22
to
Den 30.09.2022 kl. 19.59 skrev Ken Blake:
> My guess is that the list was made by someone who thought that if he
> could find a single example of its being used in a book, it deserved
> to be added to the list.
That reminds me of a list of smileys I found before the internet had
> My guess is that the list was made by someone who thought that if he
> could find a single example of its being used in a book, it deserved
> to be added to the list.
been rolled out. There were almost 300 smileys, all of them explained.
At the time on Fidonet no more than five were used. It looked like
someone had produced a self-made list with no relation to reality.
--
Bertel
Kerr-Mudd, John
Oct 1, 2022, 4:39:23 AM10/1/22
to
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
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