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barbarian etymology and shaving

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Gus

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Apr 14, 2014, 9:40:49 PM4/14/14
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More or less true?

"There was soon a definite divide between the shaven and the unshaven
– at least as far as the shaven were concerned anyway. In fact, some
etymologists think that the term “barbarian” actually comes from
“barba”, meaning “beard”. Hence, barbarians were simply all those who
were “unbarbered” or didn’t shave. (An alternate theory is that
“barbarian” comes from the Proto-Indo-Eurpoean root *barbar, meaning
something to the effect of “stammering” or “unintelligible”, referring
to the people’s language, rather than lack of shaving.)"

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/04/the-history-of-shaving/

Ross

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Apr 14, 2014, 10:22:49 PM4/14/14
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On Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:40:49 PM UTC+12, Gus wrote:
> More or less true?
>
> "There was soon a definite divide between the shaven and the unshaven
> – at least as far as the shaven were concerned anyway. In fact, some
> etymologists think that the term “barbarian” actually comes from
> “barba”, meaning “beard”. Hence, barbarians were simply all those who
> were “unbarbered” or didn’t shave.

Less, in the sense of "not".
The word appears first in Greek.
Greek does not have barba, meaning beard.
These "etymologists" should have their license taken away.

(An alternate theory is that “barbarian” comes from the Proto-Indo-Eurpoean root *barbar, meaning something to the effect of “stammering” or “unintelligible”, referring to the people’s language, rather than lack of shaving.)"

More, in the sense of "true".

CDB

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Apr 15, 2014, 11:25:21 AM4/15/14
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The "alternate theory" explains the Greek origin of the word
("barbaros") better, since "barba" is the Latin word for "beard".
"Barbarus" in Latin is a borrowing.


Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Apr 16, 2014, 1:54:29 AM4/16/14
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Better? I don't believe it. Can we really put more trust in the the
opinion of some unnamed etymologists quoted by an unknown journalist in
an article dated the 1st April 2013 than in the standard view?

At least at the time of Aristotle the Greeks had beards, so why would
they have used "bearded" as a term of contempt? Why would they have
adopted a Latin term?


--
athel

Peter T. Daniels

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Apr 16, 2014, 8:36:10 AM4/16/14
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On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 1:54:29 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2014-04-15 15:25:21 +0000, CDB said:
> > On 14/04/2014 9:40 PM, Gus wrote:

> >> More or less true?
> >> "There was soon a definite divide between the shaven and the
> >> unshaven - at least as far as the shaven were concerned anyway. In
> >> fact, some etymologists think that the term "barbarian" actually
> >> comes from "barba", meaning "beard". Hence, barbarians were simply
> >> all those who were "unbarbered" or didn't shave. (An alternate
> >> theory is that "barbarian" comes from the Proto-Indo-Eurpoean root
> >> *barbar, meaning something to the effect of "stammering" or
> >> "unintelligible", referring to the people's language, rather than
> >> lack of shaving.)"
> >> http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/04/the-history-of-shaving/
> > The "alternate theory" explains the Greek origin of the word
> > ("barbaros") better, since "barba" is the Latin word for "beard".
> > "Barbarus" in Latin is a borrowing.
>
> Better? I don't believe it. Can we really put more trust in the the
> opinion of some unnamed etymologists quoted by an unknown journalist in
> an article dated the 1st April 2013 than in the standard view?

Please read what CDB _actually_ wrote. He endorsed the "alternate"
theory, which in terms of the posted paragraph means the conventional
etymology from "bar bar" 'babbling' or some such.

> At least at the time of Aristotle the Greeks had beards, so why would
> they have used "bearded" as a term of contempt? Why would they have
> adopted a Latin term?

I'm sure CDB is grateful for your support.

Peter Moylan

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Apr 16, 2014, 10:32:06 AM4/16/14
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The real solution is a lot simpler. The Greeks heard someone singing
"Bar bar bar, bar barber Ann".

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Mack A. Damia

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Apr 16, 2014, 10:37:11 AM4/16/14
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"They have slain the Earl o' Moray, and Lady Mondegreen."

--


Peter Duncanson [BrE]

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Apr 16, 2014, 11:58:47 AM4/16/14
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On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 00:32:06 +1000, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

Or they heard a crowd of actors muttering the ancient words "rhubarb,
rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb..."

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/rhubarb

3. British • informal The noise made by a group of actors to give the
impression of indistinct background conversation, especially by
the random repetition of the word ‘rhubarb’.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Ross

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Apr 16, 2014, 5:01:33 PM4/16/14
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On Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:58:47 AM UTC+12, PeterWD wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2014 00:32:06 +1000, Peter Moylan
>
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>

Or they heard a crowd of actors muttering the ancient words "rhubarb,
> rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb..."
>
> http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/rhubarb
>
> 3. British * informal The noise made by a group of actors to give the
> impression of indistinct background conversation, especially by
> the random repetition of the word 'rhubarb'.

Which is [really!] from something like rha-barbaros in Greek. I think the plant came from Russia or somewhere barbaric like that.

John Varela

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Apr 16, 2014, 7:27:29 PM4/16/14
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On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:58:47 UTC, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> Or they heard a crowd of actors muttering the ancient words "rhubarb,
> rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb..."
>
> http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/rhubarb
>
> 3. British informal The noise made by a group of actors to give the
> impression of indistinct background conversation, especially by
> the random repetition of the word rhubarb .

A non-actor friend once had to play a priest as a non-speaking role
in some school play. He was told to just keep mumbling "I can play
dominoes better than you can" while making the sign of the cross.

--
John Varela

Guy Barry

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Apr 17, 2014, 2:13:48 AM4/17/14
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"John Varela" wrote in message
news:51W5y0sPNk52-pn2-gtKw6BtKGhx7@localhost...
>
>On Wed, 16 Apr 2014 15:58:47 UTC, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>> Or they heard a crowd of actors muttering the ancient words "rhubarb,
>> rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb..."
>>
>> http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/rhubarb
>>
>> 3. British informal The noise made by a group of actors to give the
>> impression of indistinct background conversation, especially by
>> the random repetition of the word rhubarb .

The late Eric Sykes once made a 30-minute TV comedy film (set on a golf
course) in which the only word spoken was "Rhubarb". I remember the title
as "Rhubarb Rhubarb", but apparently this was a remake of an earlier version
called simply "Rhubarb".

By the way, "soda water siphon" repeated continuously is supposed to give a
good impression of constant whispering.

>A non-actor friend once had to play a priest as a non-speaking role
>in some school play. He was told to just keep mumbling "I can play
>dominoes better than you can" while making the sign of the cross.

Never heard that one. It makes me think of the song "Anything You Can Do I
Can Do Better".

--
Guy Barry

CDB

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Apr 17, 2014, 9:35:52 AM4/17/14
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On 16/04/2014 8:36 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
I`m grateful for evidence that I haven't been whooshed after all. I
couldn`t figure out what Athel meant. (It's possible that I was being a
bit telegraphic.)

Thank you.


Jerry Friedman

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Apr 17, 2014, 10:04:20 AM4/17/14
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On 4/17/14 12:13 AM, Guy Barry wrote:
> "John Varela" wrote in message
...


>> A non-actor friend once had to play a priest as a non-speaking role
>> in some school play. He was told to just keep mumbling "I can play
>> dominoes better than you can" while making the sign of the cross.
>
> Never heard that one.
...

Also "Bet you we can beat you playing dominoes".

--
Jerry Friedman

CDB

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Apr 17, 2014, 10:51:22 AM4/17/14
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On 17/04/2014 10:04 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> Guy Barry wrote:
>> "John Varela" wrote in message

>>> A non-actor friend once had to play a priest as a non-speaking
>>> role in some school play. He was told to just keep mumbling "I
>>> can play dominoes better than you can" while making the sign of
>>> the cross.

>> Never heard that one.

> Also "Bet you we can beat you playing dominoes".

"Myfathercanbeatyourfatherwithonehandtiedbehindhisbacknohecan'tyesheca-a-an."



Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Apr 17, 2014, 11:09:02 AM4/17/14
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OK. PTD is right. I was thrown by the word "alternate", which isn't
used in that sense in my sort of English. I was taking you to be
referring to the alternative to the the standard theory, rather than to
the standard theory itself. Anyway, I'm happy to be reassured that you
weren't accepting the nonsensical theory.

--
athel

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