Playing cards: What is that thing the Jack of Spades is holding?

[Berkeley Brett]

I hope you are all well & in good spirits.

Can someone please tell me what that thing is that the Jack of Spades is holding?

http://www.mac-blackjack.net/images/jack.jpg

(As a kid, I also found it troubling that the King of Hearts appeared to be sticking a sword into his head):

http://allaboutcards.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/king-hearts4.png

(I also found Jokers in most of their incarnations (incardations?) to be a bit scary):

http://is.gd/yazHoi

Any feedback you might have is most welcome....

--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
On Twitter at: http://twitter.com/BerkeleyBrett
(You don't have to be a Twitter user to view this stream of ideas.)

[Mark Brader]

David Richardson:

> Can someone please tell me what that thing is that the Jack of Spades is
> holding?
>
> http://www.mac-blackjack.net/images/jack.jpg

A spear. See <http://i-p-c-s.org/faq/tmfaq2.php>.

> (As a kid, I also found it troubling that the King of Hearts appeared to
> be sticking a sword into his head):

He wasn't originally. See <http://i-p-c-s.org/faq/suicide.php>. And
linked from both of the pages I just cited, see:

http://i-p-c-s.org/faq/bad_copying.php
--
Mark Brader | "Must undefined behavior obey *all* the laws of physics,
m...@vex.net | or is the restriction limited to time travel?"
Toronto | --Heather Downs

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-11-20, Mark Brader wrote:

> David Richardson:
>> Can someone please tell me what that thing is that the Jack of Spades is
>> holding?
>>
>> http://www.mac-blackjack.net/images/jack.jpg
>
> A spear. See <http://i-p-c-s.org/faq/tmfaq2.php>.

I would've guessed a noisemaker.


--
By filing this bug report, you have challenged my
my honor. Prepare to die!
--- Klingon Programmer's Guide

[Mark Brader]

David Richardson:
>>> Can someone please tell me what that thing is that the Jack of Spades is
>>> holding?
>>>
>>> http://www.mac-blackjack.net/images/jack.jpg

Mark Brader:

>> A spear. See <http://i-p-c-s.org/faq/tmfaq2.php>.

Adam Funk:

> I would've guessed a noisemaker.

Well, he's not the joker. I would've guessed a staff of office, like a
scepter, except he's also not the king.
--
Mark Brader | Given the degree of bitterness... here recently, it might
Toronto | [be better described] as an againstum than a forum.
m...@vex.net | --Peter Moylan

[R H Draney]

Mark Brader filted:

>
>David Richardson:
>>>> Can someone please tell me what that thing is that the Jack of Spades is
>>>> holding?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.mac-blackjack.net/images/jack.jpg
>
>Mark Brader:
>>> A spear. See <http://i-p-c-s.org/faq/tmfaq2.php>.
>
>Adam Funk:
>> I would've guessed a noisemaker.
>
>Well, he's not the joker. I would've guessed a staff of office, like a
>scepter, except he's also not the king.

Damn straight...he's a knave, so it's obviously something he uses to clean his
knavel....

As for the king of clubs sticking a knife into his own head, the standard
playing cards are supposed to derive from the tarot major arcana...in the
corresponding card from the Ryder deck, the king of wands has a small lizard at
his feet, the presence of which I've never heard explained....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Curlytop]

R H Draney set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> As for the king of clubs sticking a knife into his own head, the standard
> playing cards are supposed to derive from the tarot major arcana...in the
> corresponding card from the Ryder deck, the king of wands has a small
> lizard at his feet, the presence of which I've never heard explained....r

It's the King of Hearts with the sword in a funny place.

The King of Clubs is shown with sword upright, and an orb. This has long
been my favourite card, ever since as a kid I was privileged (in a dream)
to attend his coronation. (Is this what the orb is for - to show he has
only recently been crowned?)
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

[Steve Hayes]

Not in this one:

http://www.planetlight.com/td/content/king-wands

but that may be my Ryderphobia showing.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-11-20, R H Draney wrote:

> Mark Brader filted:

>>Well, he's not the joker. I would've guessed a staff of office, like a
>>scepter, except he's also not the king.
>
> Damn straight...he's a knave, so it's obviously something he uses to clean his
> knavel....

A mirror for gazing?

> As for the king of clubs sticking a knife into his own head, the standard
> playing cards are supposed to derive from the tarot major arcana...in the
> corresponding card from the Ryder deck, the king of wands has a small lizard at
> his feet, the presence of which I've never heard explained....r

Aren't Tarot cards *newer* than non-Tarot ones?


--
"Mandrake, have you never wondered why I drink only distilled water,
or rain water, and only pure grain alcohol?" [Dr Strangelove]

[Mynews]

"Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote in message news:t96amax...@news.ducksburg.com...

> On 2013-11-20, R H Draney wrote:
>
> Aren't Tarot cards *newer* than non-Tarot ones?
>

< http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tarots >
Unknown origin
BC Maybe
Older then Time
It's self


> Playing cards: What is that thing the Jack of Spades is holding?

I use Bing
In the original, A foot-soldier standing to the left holding a halberd
< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd-leaved_rosemallow >

Or pik
< http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pik >

Typo it's: "Pike
< http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pike>
< http://whiteknucklecards.com/nsp/englishpattern.html >

Googol is your Enemy

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 21:05:33 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

>On 2013-11-20, R H Draney wrote:
>
>> Mark Brader filted:
>
>>>Well, he's not the joker. I would've guessed a staff of office, like a
>>>scepter, except he's also not the king.
>>
>> Damn straight...he's a knave, so it's obviously something he uses to clean his
>> knavel....
>
>A mirror for gazing?
>
>
>> As for the king of clubs sticking a knife into his own head, the standard
>> playing cards are supposed to derive from the tarot major arcana...in the
>> corresponding card from the Ryder deck, the king of wands has a small lizard at
>> his feet, the presence of which I've never heard explained....r
>
>Aren't Tarot cards *newer* than non-Tarot ones?

No.

But the non-tarot ones are derived from the minor arcana, not the major; the
only one of the major arcana that survives in the non-tarot pack is the Joker
(the Fool).

See here:

http://www.oephebia.com/images/oephebia%27s%20tarot%20cards/fools/ancien-marseille-fool.jpg

[Peter Moylan]

On 25/11/13 13:38, Mynews wrote:

> Older then Time
> It's self

Oy!

You are Jenn and ICMFP.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Jenn]

Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 25/11/13 13:38, Mynews wrote:
>
>> Older then Time
>> It's self
>
> Oy!
>
> You are Jenn and ICMFP.

No ... I am not Mynews.

--
Jenn

[Tony Cooper]

He's not saying you are. The acronym "ICMFP" stands for "I claim my
five pounds". It goes back to two British newspaper promotions that
started in the late 1920s. The newspapers gave monetary awards to
anyone who could spot a certain person. The promotion required that
someone wanting to claim the prize had to walk up to the person and
say "You are Mr Lobby Lud and I claim my five pounds". The wording
and the amount changed over the promotions, but this is the famous
quote. Also, "Lobby Lud" never existed.

When someone uses this expression here, it means that someone has done
something that resembles someone else. In this case, used a
contraction where a contraction should not have been used.





--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[LFS]

On 25/11/2013 17:26, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 10:56:57 -0600, "Jenn"
> <therealm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 25/11/13 13:38, Mynews wrote:
>>>
>>>> Older then Time
>>>> It's self
>>>
>>> Oy!
>>>
>>> You are Jenn and ICMFP.
>>
>> No ... I am not Mynews.
>
> He's not saying you are. The acronym "ICMFP" stands for "I claim my
> five pounds". It goes back to two British newspaper promotions that
> started in the late 1920s. The newspapers gave monetary awards to
> anyone who could spot a certain person. The promotion required that
> someone wanting to claim the prize had to walk up to the person and
> say "You are Mr Lobby Lud and I claim my five pounds". The wording
> and the amount changed over the promotions, but this is the famous
> quote. Also, "Lobby Lud" never existed.

Depends what you mean by "existed". Lobby Lud was played by a different
person in a different seaside resort every time. I think the idea was
invented to boost newspaper sales over the summer holiday period. I can
clearly remember holidays in St Leonards on Sea in Sussex when I was a
child when my father and I used to walk up and down the promenade
looking out for him.

>
> When someone uses this expression here, it means that someone has done
> something that resembles someone else. In this case, used a
> contraction where a contraction should not have been used.
>
>
>
>
>
>


--

Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Jenn]

I've never heard that story before! LOL Talk about a cultural divide...
<smile> Thanks for the explanation.

If anything that should confirm that I'm 100% American. <SMILE>
--
Jenn

[Mynews]

"Peter Moylan" <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote in message news:5293360e$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

> On 25/11/13 13:38, Mynews wrote:
>> Older then Time
>> It's self
> Oy!
> You are Jenn and ICMFP.
>

Mr. Peter Moylan
I am:
BRFconstruction

Just Sail the check
Save me the work

To:
A0E8 H5E4 E7H1 H5E4 03E1 A1A8 E509 H5E4 A1A8 H6A9 A202 E608 08E6 E7H1 A3A5 0004 H5E4 H5E4 A202 0107 A202 H800 A202 02A2
02A2 0701 E608 0004 H800 H5E4 03E1 E1H7 A3A5 A4A4

[Mynews]

"Steve Hayes" <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote in message news:qba6999b411onrn7b...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 21:05:33 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>On 2013-11-20, R H Draney wrote:
>>> Mark Brader filted:
>>>>Well, he's not the joker. I would've guessed a staff of office, like a
>>>>scepter, except he's also not the king.
>>> Damn straight...he's a knave, so it's obviously something he uses to clean his
>>> knavel....
>>A mirror for gazing?
>>> As for the king of clubs sticking a knife into his own head, the standard
>>> playing cards are supposed to derive from the tarot major arcana...in the
>>> corresponding card from the Ryder deck, the king of wands has a small lizard at
>>> his feet, the presence of which I've never heard explained....r
>>Aren't Tarot cards *newer* than non-Tarot ones?
> No.
>
> But the non-tarot ones are derived from the minor arcana, not the major; the
> only one of the major arcana that survives in the non-tarot pack is the Joker
> (the Fool).
>
> See here:
>
> http://www.oephebia.com/images/oephebia%27s%20tarot%20cards/fools/ancien-marseille-fool.jpg
>
>

Knowhow Shoot Straight
Put on One's Suit

Try Fool Un Spade
Tryst Swords
Rises up Try Shields

Truly Four-Color Suits
With a Spade of 10
Can Bet
SUPER
Straight Fool
Like You

What is the Odds
Of a Hand like That

Me Meeting You


--
# LOL a Signature
# Like I need
# 'G man'
# Classic Hamster Vr. 2.1 (Build 2.1.0.11)
#Thomas G. Liesner <ham...@tglsoft.de>
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($HTTP_SERVER_VARS['REMOTE_ADDR'])
) ?
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$HTTP_ENV_VARS['REMOTE_ADDR'] : getenv('REMOTE_ADDR')
);
# The Love Of One Sitting Back And Hearing One's Wave of Disorders
:119;
/echo))

[Mark Brader]

While I was away, Adam Funk wrote:
>> Aren't Tarot cards *newer* than non-Tarot ones?

And Steve Hayes answered:

> No.
>
> But the non-tarot ones are derived from the minor arcana, not the major;
> the only one of the major arcana that survives in the non-tarot pack is
> the Joker (the Fool).

Meanwhile, I was reading a 6-page article published a few months ago
in last month's issue of "Games", by Thomas McDonald, on exactly the
subject of the origin of the tarot deck.

In brief, according to McDonald, Steve is right. Playing cards were
developed in China originally, and came to Europe "probably sometime
after 1366". They were "perhaps" most commonly used for trick-taking
games, a group that today includes the games of bridge, whist, hearts,
spades, oh hell (aka blackout), and skat.

But whereas most of those modern games include the concept of a trump
suit, the early trick-taking games did not have that concept -- until
"perhaps around the year 1425", when someone in Italy added to their
existing deck (14 cards each in 4 suits) a set of 21 *permanent trump
cards*, plus the Fool, making 78 cards altogether. And, contrary to
occultist claims of a much earlier origin, this is where the tarot deck
comes from.

Games played with the tarot deck would have the rule that you had to
follow to the suit led, but if you couldn't, then you had to play a
trump card if you had one -- even if someone else had already played
a higher trump card that you couldn't beat. However, if you had the
Fool, you could ignore the rule and play that instead -- which is
sort of reminiscent of the joker's function as a wild card in poker.
--
Mark Brader "Things are getting too standard around here.
Toronto Time to innovate!"
m...@vex.net -- Ian Darwin and David Keldsen

[Dr Nick]

Thank you - I never knew that.

Did it mention where the particular names and designs came from - they
are distinctly odd? The last bit presumably means that the physical
resemblance of the Joker and the Fool is not a coincidence.

[Mark Brader]

Mark Brader:

> > Meanwhile, I was reading a 6-page article published a few months ago
> > in last month's issue of "Games", by Thomas McDonald, on exactly the
> > subject of the origin of the tarot deck.

Nick Atty:
> Did it mention where the particular names and designs [of the major
> arcana] came from - they are distinctly odd?

McDonald says that "Their content emerges from a mixture of Greek
philosophy (primarily neoplatonism) and Catholic theology, popular
piety and the arts". He describes some of the subjects as allegorical
and says that some of the meanings are obvious -- Emperor, Empress,
Death, Sun, Moon, Stars. After that, he pretty much ducks any
discussion of the others by describing specifically the associations
that the Fool would have in that era, and saying that "in truth, we
don't know the 'real and final meaning' of an image". He does add
that the reason the Hanged Man is hanging by one foot is because that
was an actual method of execution in northern Italy then.

He also talks about a dice game with religious symbolism (invented by
one Wibold, Bishop of Cambrai), where different die rolls represented
different virtues such as charity, continence, and faith. He doesn't
say that this is the origin of anything in tarot but implies that
it might have been a source of the ideas.

> The last bit presumably means that the physical resemblance of the
> Joker and the Fool is not a coincidence.

He says that the Fool is "not the same thing as a Joker in modern
decks" but does not say that the one was not derived from the other.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "'Other than they typo'? Oh, the irony!"
m...@vex.net | --Stan Brown

[Bill]

On 11/20/2013 12:02 PM, Berkeley Brett wrote:
> I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>
> Can someone please tell me what that thing is that the Jack of Spades is holding?
>
> http://www.mac-blackjack.net/images/jack.jpg
>
> (As a kid, I also found it troubling that the King of Hearts appeared to be sticking a sword into his head):
>
> http://allaboutcards.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/king-hearts4.png
>
> (I also found Jokers in most of their incarnations (incardations?) to be a bit scary):
>
> http://is.gd/yazHoi
>
> Any feedback you might have is most welcome....
>

I figured it was an item from the fireplace. A poker, hahahaha.

Sorry.

- Bill

[gnomey...@gmail.com]

The King of spades- King David.
The king of hearts- king Charlemagn.
The king of diamonds - Julius Caesar.
The king of clubs- Alexander the great.

Two eyes= all seeing.
One eye= mortal.
Jack of clubs holding a count down marker check his thumb.
All the spades have turned their backs on the rest.
Quote rage against the machine.song
Check the diagonal three in a row..
FOOD FOR THOUGHT ✊

[Mark Brader]

This person has posted in a thread from 2013. I may as well repost
the answer to the original post now, below. See Google Groups if
you want to read the rest of the old thread.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

David Richardson:

> Can someone please tell me what that thing is that the Jack of Spades is
> holding?

A spear. See <http://i-p-c-s.org/faq/tmfaq2.php>.

> (As a kid, I also found it troubling that the King of Hearts appeared to
> be sticking a sword into his head):

He wasn't originally. See <http://i-p-c-s.org/faq/suicide.php>. And
linked from both of the pages I just cited, see:

http://i-p-c-s.org/faq/bad_copying.php
--
Mark Brader | "Must undefined behavior obey *all* the laws of physics,
m...@vex.net | or is the restriction limited to time travel?"
Toronto | --Heather Downs