Mam Tor
the Omrud
Tor this afternoon, from Castleton village. It was a bit hazy and
overcast but that was probably a Good Thing considering the effort
involved. We met several parties of school children and a not
inconsiderable number of elderly couples.
Any way. The local guide books insist that "Mam" is "Mother" and
that this hill is "Mother Tor". Seems a bit unlikely to me. Is
there any way of finding out?
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
Mike Barnes
"Mother Rock" is quite widely quoted as the meaning. Also "Breast Hill",
referring to the shape - quite appropriate actually.
e.g.
<http://www.jwoodhouse.co.uk/derbyshire/mamtor_info.htm>
Not a very good picture - here's a better one:
<http://www.picturesofengland.com/pictures/natural/Peak_District_Nationa
l_Park_1105192397.jpg>
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Frances Kemmish
> In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote:
>
>>I thought that Fran might like to know that Wife and I walked up Mam
>>Tor this afternoon, from Castleton village. It was a bit hazy and
>>overcast but that was probably a Good Thing considering the effort
>>involved. We met several parties of school children and a not
>>inconsiderable number of elderly couples.
>>
>>Any way. The local guide books insist that "Mam" is "Mother" and
>>that this hill is "Mother Tor". Seems a bit unlikely to me. Is
>>there any way of finding out?
>
>
> "Mother Rock" is quite widely quoted as the meaning. Also "Breast Hill",
> referring to the shape - quite appropriate actually.
>
I've heard both "mother" and "breast" as the meaning of "Mam" - well,
they are related. I think that the name referred to the iron age hill
fort too.
We heard it called "Shivering Mountain", too - with good reason after it
collapsed on to the road in the early 70s.
> e.g.
>
> <http://www.jwoodhouse.co.uk/derbyshire/mamtor_info.htm>
>
> Not a very good picture - here's a better one:
>
> <http://www.picturesofengland.com/pictures/natural/Peak_District_Nationa
> l_Park_1105192397.jpg>
>
Thank you for that. That's the kind of thing that brings on
homesickness. I don't suffer as much as I did when we first lived over
here. i can remember reading the opening words of NY Times travel piece:
"Driving out of Buxton along Axe Edge..." and actually having tears come
to my eyes.
I recall reading on of Vera Brittain's books, in which she describes her
move to Ithaca, when her husband was teaching at Cornell, and found the
hills and waterfalls remarkably like a larger version of the Peak
District. The first time I went to the Finger Lakes, I made a particular
point of visiting Taughannock Falls (sp?) to see if it really was like
Miller's Dale.
At the moment, I am reading Val McDermid's book "A Place of Execution"
which is set in the same general area. Of course, I try to equate
"Scardale" with the little villages I knew up there, although none of
the ones I knew were quite so insular.
This is where I want my ashes scattered when I'm gone:
http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk/derbyshire/mamtor14big.html
Fran
Homesick in Connecticut
the Omrud
> Mike Barnes wrote:
> > In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote:
> >
> >>I thought that Fran might like to know that Wife and I walked up Mam
> >>Tor this afternoon, from Castleton village. It was a bit hazy and
> >>overcast but that was probably a Good Thing considering the effort
> >>involved. We met several parties of school children and a not
> >>inconsiderable number of elderly couples.
> >>
> >>Any way. The local guide books insist that "Mam" is "Mother" and
> >>that this hill is "Mother Tor". Seems a bit unlikely to me. Is
> >>there any way of finding out?
> >
> >
> > "Mother Rock" is quite widely quoted as the meaning. Also "Breast Hill",
> > referring to the shape - quite appropriate actually.
> >
>
> I've heard both "mother" and "breast" as the meaning of "Mam" - well,
> they are related. I think that the name referred to the iron age hill
> fort too.
>
> We heard it called "Shivering Mountain", too - with good reason after it
> collapsed on to the road in the early 70s.
The road was finally abandoned in 1979 after another series of slips.
We walked down it today - it looks like the aftermath of an
earthquake.
> This is where I want my ashes scattered when I'm gone:
>
> http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk/derbyshire/mamtor14big.html
Here - this is what it looked like this afternoon:
http://www.omrud.com/AUE/MamTor/
Mike Barnes
>This is where I want my ashes scattered when I'm gone:
>
>http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk/derbyshire/mamtor14big.html
Nice choice!
That picture makes the Winnats look pretty benign. In fact, as you of
course know, the roadway is much narrower than it looks there, and the
gradient is fierce - about 25%. Sadly I simply don't think it's possible
to capture the drama in a photograph, though this comes close:
http://www.norphil.co.uk/catalog/images/c-gb1013.jpg
Winnats is the temporary (of 28 years standing) light-vehicles
alternative to the A625, which was closed by a particularly inconvenient
landslip on Mam Tor.
the Omrud
Like this:
http://www.omrud.com/AUE/MamTor/slides/CIMG1331.htm
http://www.omrud.com/AUE/MamTor/slides/CIMG1332.htm
Ross Howard
wrought:
>Mike Barnes spake thusly:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, Frances Kemmish wrote:
>> >This is where I want my ashes scattered when I'm gone:
>> >
>> >http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk/derbyshire/mamtor14big.html
>>
>> Nice choice!
>>
>> That picture makes the Winnats look pretty benign. In fact, as you of
>> course know, the roadway is much narrower than it looks there, and the
>> gradient is fierce - about 25%. Sadly I simply don't think it's possible
>> to capture the drama in a photograph, though this comes close:
>>
>> http://www.norphil.co.uk/catalog/images/c-gb1013.jpg
Drama? Fierce gradient? This thread has made me realise that,
vertically speaking, the English landscape is only an undulating down
or windswept-sheep-laden moor or two more impressive than Belgium or
Idaho.
Action should be brought against the Peak District under the Trade
Descriptions Act. With most of the pics posted of Mam Tor, I've been
struggling to guess which particular gentle hillock might be the one
under discussion.
You want day-trippable peaks, try the ones I swapped the Pennines for
-- 11,400 feet up, only 45 minutes from the city and even closer to
the sea (the Med; not Cleveleys) than any English "mountain".
http://www.thu.no/andalucia01/anda0088.jpg
(Aren't ex-pats like just the absolute worst?)
--
Ross Howard
Frances Kemmish
> Drama? Fierce gradient? This thread has made me realise that,
> vertically speaking, the English landscape is only an undulating down
> or windswept-sheep-laden moor or two more impressive than Belgium or
> Idaho.
>
I guess you've never been to Idaho.
> Action should be brought against the Peak District under the Trade
> Descriptions Act. With most of the pics posted of Mam Tor, I've been
> struggling to guess which particular gentle hillock might be the one
> under discussion.
>
Yes, but so what.
> You want day-trippable peaks, try the ones I swapped the Pennines for
> -- 11,400 feet up, only 45 minutes from the city and even closer to
> the sea (the Med; not Cleveleys) than any English "mountain".
>
That's not home.
Fran
Wood Avens
>Mike Barnes spake thusly:
>> Winnats is the temporary (of 28 years standing) light-vehicles
>> alternative to the A625, which was closed by a particularly inconvenient
>> landslip on Mam Tor.
>
>Like this:
>http://www.omrud.com/AUE/MamTor/slides/CIMG1331.htm
>http://www.omrud.com/AUE/MamTor/slides/CIMG1332.htm
We were in the area when the landslip happened, planning to drive that
way, and although we heard on the news that the road was closed we
didn't really believe we couldn't get through: we knew the road, and
we were used to negotiating the odd pot-hole and bit of rough ground.
It was a gob-smacking, gut-wrenching experience to see what had
actually happened, something I haven't forgotten.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
the Omrud
OTOH, this one:
http://jpa.galerie.free.fr/Pr%E9sentation%20photos/Images%
20page1/Canigou%20001.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/aspx5
is home to me in my French guise. I have to admit that it's a bit
tougher to climb than Mam Tor.
Ross Howard
<fkem...@optonline.net> wrought:
>Ross Howard wrote:
>
>> Drama? Fierce gradient? This thread has made me realise that,
>> vertically speaking, the English landscape is only an undulating down
>> or windswept-sheep-laden moor or two more impressive than Belgium or
>> Idaho.
>>
>
>I guess you've never been to Idaho.
Got me. I meant Somewheatfieldstateinthemiddle (Iowa?)
--
Ross Howard
Mike Barnes
>Action should be brought against the Peak District under the Trade
>Descriptions Act.
Save your indignation. The "peak" in "Peak District" is not a reference
to its pointed mountain summits, of which, as you quite rightly point
out, there are few.
From <http://www.e-travelguide.info/peakdistrict/>:
"The origin of the word 'peak' probably comes from the Pecsaetans, or
hill people, a primitive tribe who settled here in the 7th Century.
Areff
This is a very common error made by not-well-travelled (in some ways) East
Coast people -- mixing up "Idaho" and "Iowa" conceptually.
Areff
> Ross Howard wrote:
>
>> Drama? Fierce gradient? This thread has made me realise that,
>> vertically speaking, the English landscape is only an undulating down
>> or windswept-sheep-laden moor or two more impressive than Belgium or
>> Idaho.
>>
>
> I guess you've never been to Idaho.
He must be thinking of Iowa. Or Ithaca.
Ross Howard
<june...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrought:
WIWAL I used to think it was the "Peat District" -- which actually
would be quite apt.
--
Ross Howard
Mike Barnes
>On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:41:00 +0100, Mike Barnes
><june...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrought:
>
>>In alt.usage.english, Ross Howard wrote:
>>>Action should be brought against the Peak District under the Trade
>>>Descriptions Act.
>>
>>Save your indignation. The "peak" in "Peak District" is not a reference
>>to its pointed mountain summits, of which, as you quite rightly point
>>out, there are few.
>>
>>From <http://www.e-travelguide.info/peakdistrict/>:
>>
>> "The origin of the word 'peak' probably comes from the Pecsaetans, or
>> hill people, a primitive tribe who settled here in the 7th Century.
>
>WIWAL I used to think it was the "Peat District" -- which actually
>would be quite apt.
Not that apt, unfortunately in this case. The Peak District is divided
into two regions:
* The Dark Peak (gritstone moorland, avec peat) in the north, and
* The White Peak (limestone dale country, sans peat) in the south.
The places we've been talking about - Mam Tor, Winnats - are in the
White Peak, and are peatless. But Kinder Scout, just two miles to the
north of Mam Tor across Edale, is in the Dark Peak and is as peaty as
anyone could reasonably want.
Ross Howard
<june...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrought:
My stomping ground WIWAL was Saddleworth Moor, which is
peat-bog-a-go-go, yes. Trees, we ain't got 'em.
I've also just remembered that the symbol of the PDNP is a
jocking-great millstone (as in "grit" -- geddit?), i.e. a magnificent
example of the washer shape.
www.peakdistrict-nationalpark.info/_images/_pictures/TL152.jpg
--
Ross Howard
Django Cat
A cracking good read (and no spoilers ahead, guarenteed). I met Val
McD at a book signing in Oldham when she was promoting APoE. She was
at pains to say that Scardale didn't represent a particular village,
but was an amalgam of weird places in the White Peak. I asked her
about the 'gated road' which goes through Pilsley (a wacky spot) and
yes, that was definitely in the mix, as was Kings Sterndale, where
there's a pub with the name 'The Silent Woman', and a gruesome pub
sign explaining why she's silent - it shows a woman's severed head.
The same name and sign occur on a pub in Leek. That part of the Peak
is a little strange, mazy and otherworldly, and I thought APoE caught
it brilliantly (but I preferred the part set n the 60s).
DC
Frances Kemmish
All this discussion of geology has reminded me of my presentation in
Geography class about the geology of the vale of Edale, which you may
know is largely made up of shale and grit.
Unfortunately, I committed a most embarrassing spoonerism.
Fran
Django Cat
In fact I've always understood that the ridge that runs from Chapel en
le Frith up across Mam Tor, down through Hollins Cross and ends at
Lose Hill (and all these places are about 5 miles from my front door),
marks the boundry between the White and Dark Peaks, but that the ridge
itself is the last bit of Dark Peak (Mam Tor itself isn't limestone or
gritstone, it's some sort of nasty shaly stuff, hence the landslides
that keep moving the A6187 down the hill). Look North across Edale
from Mam Tor and you see the Pennine Way rising to cross the empty
moorland of the Dark Peak; turn around 180 dgrees and it's the managed
Limestone fileds of the White peak stretching South.
I've been to Buxton this afternoon; interesting to learn that water
swallows tunstead works. Anybody remember that John Shuttleworth song
'She lives in Hope (but she used to live in Bamford)'?
DC
Django Cat
I won't ask just how long ago that was Katy... but as you go into
Glossop, theres a road sign with shutters which can be moved to say
which passes are open or closed in winter. It includes Woodheads and
the Snake pass, but also the Mam Tor road, which is never going to be
openable again.
DC
Frances Kemmish
That had me confused for a while - I was thinking of the other Pilsley,
near Clay Cross.
and
> yes, that was definitely in the mix, as was Kings Sterndale, where
> there's a pub with the name 'The Silent Woman', and a gruesome pub
> sign explaining why she's silent - it shows a woman's severed head.
> The same name and sign occur on a pub in Leek. That part of the Peak
> is a little strange, mazy and otherworldly, and I thought APoE caught
> it brilliantly (but I preferred the part set n the 60s).
>
My image of Scardale[1] was of the little hamlets out Tideswell way,
mainly because my husband hired a young man to work with him at Ferodo,
who was living in one of those hamlets with his girlfriend in a tiny
stone cottage that you had to walk across fields to ge to. He rode to
work on a motorbike, and Geoff took pity on him and gave him his old
leathers to wear since he would get to work looking like a drowned rat.
It was very easy to get cut off, living up there. I can remember not
being able to drive on the A623 over Tideswell Moor, because even a
modest snowfall would drift and block the roads. We used to take a short
cut through Sparrowpit in the summer, and even looked at buying a house
there, but when it snowed, those sunken roads filled up with snow. And
that was practically on a main road.
Fran
[1] I keep reading this as Scarsdale, which, in addition to being a
hospital in Chesterfield, is an expensive town in Westchester Co. NY.
Mike Barnes
>weird places in the White Peak
>Kings Sterndale, where
>there's a pub with the name 'The Silent Woman', and a gruesome pub
>sign explaining why she's silent - it shows a woman's severed head.
ITYM the *Quiet* Woman in *Earl* Sterndale.
http://www.cressbrook.co.uk/buxton/qtwoman.jpg
http://www.peakdistrictcottages.net/dpdop101.html
Excellent pub, if you like things the way they were in the 1960s, but
sadly the prices are fairly up-to-date. I used to live a couple of miles
from there. "Weird places in the White Peak" definitely sums it up.
Ross Howard
<fkem...@optonline.net> wrought:
>Ross Howard wrote:
And probably, in the process, gave a terse but accurate description of
*The Da Vinci Code*.
--
Ross Howard
Wood Avens
wrote:
>I won't ask just how long ago that was Katy...
I assume you can Google the date!
>but as you go into
>Glossop, theres a road sign with shutters which can be moved to say
>which passes are open or closed in winter. It includes Woodheads and
>the Snake pass, but also the Mam Tor road, which is never going to be
>openable again.
Yes, I've noticed those, and wondered whether they conceivably implied
the possibility of a re-opening one day. It's a long time for them
not to have replaced the sign board.
TsuiDF
I'd just like to thank you all for cheering me up at the end of a
rather depressing exhausting day. The reasons for the exhaustion and
depression are irrelevant -- the joy at hearing of so many places I've
been so happily connected to (the Peak District, Ithaca whether flat or
not, and Saddleworth Moor) has brought light back to a gloomy day.
My latest walks were along Hadrian's Wall, which was wonderful, but not
as close to home.
Thanks, all,
Stephanie
in Brussels -- now *this* is flat
Django Cat
<fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
Sorry - the place I meant was Pils*bury*. It's only about four houses
- down a long road with gates every half mile or so that eventually
leads to Hartington.
When I was a kid in the 60s it was not that uncommon to have to get
out of the car to open a gate across a road when driving in the
countryside - this is the only place I know where it still happens.
The fact that it makes the village of Pilsbury feel enclosed, and
off-limits, is what made me think of it reading McDermot's book.
>
> and
>> yes, that was definitely in the mix, as was Kings Sterndale, where
>> there's a pub with the name 'The Silent Woman', and a gruesome pub
>> sign explaining why she's silent - it shows a woman's severed head.
>> The same name and sign occur on a pub in Leek. That part of the Peak
>> is a little strange, mazy and otherworldly, and I thought APoE caught
>> it brilliantly (but I preferred the part set n the 60s).
>>
>
>My image of Scardale[1] was of the little hamlets out Tideswell way,
>mainly because my husband hired a young man to work with him at Ferodo,
In Chapel?
>who was living in one of those hamlets with his girlfriend in a tiny
>stone cottage that you had to walk across fields to ge to. He rode to
>work on a motorbike, and Geoff took pity on him and gave him his old
>leathers to wear since he would get to work looking like a drowned rat.
>
>It was very easy to get cut off, living up there. I can remember not
>being able to drive on the A623 over Tideswell Moor, because even a
>modest snowfall would drift and block the roads. We used to take a short
>cut through Sparrowpit in the summer, and even looked at buying a house
>there, but when it snowed, those sunken roads filled up with snow. And
>that was practically on a main road.
That sounds very much like my image of Scardale, and definitely off
that A623, somewhere down towards Longnor.
>
>Fran
>[1] I keep reading this as Scarsdale, which, in addition to being a
>hospital in Chesterfield, is an expensive town in Westchester Co. NY.
>
Me too, I wrote it as Scarsdale several times!
DC, enjoying a every pleasant rosé bought in Marks & Spencers Buxton
this afternoon.
Django Cat
<june...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Django Cat wrote:
>>weird places in the White Peak
>>[...]
>>Kings Sterndale, where
>>there's a pub with the name 'The Silent Woman', and a gruesome pub
>>sign explaining why she's silent - it shows a woman's severed head.
>
>ITYM the *Quiet* Woman in *Earl* Sterndale.
>
> http://www.cressbrook.co.uk/buxton/qtwoman.jpg
Is that the sign on the Earl Sterndale pub?
> http://www.peakdistrictcottages.net/dpdop101.html
(Excellently put together, fast site, that)
>
>Excellent pub, if you like things the way they were in the 1960s, but
>sadly the prices are fairly up-to-date. I used to live a couple of miles
>from there. "Weird places in the White Peak" definitely sums it up.
Right on all counts Mike, I should check my facts. I've never been
in, but I'll have to give it a try.
Cheers
DC
Django Cat
<wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:09:32 +0100, Django Cat <nos...@please.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I won't ask just how long ago that was Katy...
>
>I assume you can Google the date!
>
>>but as you go into
>>Glossop, theres a road sign with shutters which can be moved to say
>>which passes are open or closed in winter. It includes Woodheads and
>>the Snake pass, but also the Mam Tor road, which is never going to be
>>openable again.
>
>Yes, I've noticed those, and wondered whether they conceivably implied
>the possibility of a re-opening one day. It's a long time for them
>not to have replaced the sign board.
They live in Hope.
Django Cat
wrote:
Well, if it puts things in perspective, it's nice to be reminded of
the year I spent living opposite Parc Josephat in Schaerbeek,
Brussels, a rough neighbourhood but I had a really funky time.
DC
Jitze Couperus
wrote:
>>
>> We heard it called "Shivering Mountain", too - with good reason after it
>> collapsed on to the road in the early 70s.
>
>The road was finally abandoned in 1979 after another series of slips.
>We walked down it today - it looks like the aftermath of an
>earthquake.
>
It's nice to have the luxury of abandoning a road when an ill-behaved
hillside wipes it out. Just last week I flew over a situation where
that is not the case, i.e the road keeps getting fixed no matter
what - see
http://www.pajarowatershed.com/Tioga/DSC00121.jpg
This is a piece of the Tioga pass in N. California. It is closed
anyway for many months of the year by snow, in which case
a very long detour is necessary for car-bound travellers. But
in addition, the occasional landslide or rock-fall will render
it out of action even in summer.
Despite this, it gets fixed every time - just because alternate
routes are so far out of the way. It can be nerve-wracking
to be a passenger on the "downhill" side of the car as you
are looking down a drop of some thousands of feet on
a road that has been known know to give way... and you
really don't want to risk driving here it if it is icy because
if you go over the edge...
I took this picture a couple of years ago, last week the road
was just getting cleared of snow.
Jitze
Mark Brader
> Stephanie
> in Brussels -- now *this* is flat
Well, it's one of only two cities I've been in where there is an outdoor
public elevator to take people up and down a hill:
http://www.travelers.jp/review/Europe/Belgium/Brussels/P7271150.jpg
http://gallery.nikita.cx/albums/bruxelles20041215/ascenseur2.jpg
(The other one's a bit older, and people like to photograph it looking up
instead of down:
http://tanatos.asc.rssi.ru/~vlad/gallery/lisboa/santa_jushta_elevador.jpg
http://www.j-paine.org/photos/lisboa_elevador_1.jpeg
http://www.alexandervandergraaf.nl/Welkom/Landen/Portugal/Portugal%20Lisboa%2003%20web%20groot.jpg
)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Just because it's correct doesn't
m...@vex.net make it right!" -- Jonas Schlein
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Mike Barnes
>>ITYM the *Quiet* Woman in *Earl* Sterndale.
>>
>> http://www.cressbrook.co.uk/buxton/qtwoman.jpg
>
>Is that the sign on the Earl Sterndale pub?
I think it is. Take a close look at the second picture...
>> http://www.peakdistrictcottages.net/dpdop101.html
.. and you can see its predecessor, flat against the wall about the left
door. Also see
http://www.cressbrook.co.uk/buxton/sterndale.htm
>I've never been
>in, but I'll have to give it a try.
If you do, I thoroughly recommend one of the pork pies to go with your
pint of Pedigree. They look most unappetising under the Perspex cover on
the bar, but in fact they're delivered daily from a prize-winning
butcher in Buxton, and any that somehow survive the day are fed to the
pigs. There's also good cheese from Hartington.
Mike Barnes
>Stephanie Mitchell signs:
>
>> Stephanie
>> in Brussels -- now *this* is flat
>
>Well, it's one of only two cities I've been in where there is an outdoor
>public elevator to take people up and down a hill:
There's one in the small Italian town my brother lives in. And they're
quite common in European ski resorts. But I'm not sure how closely you
define "city".
Frances Kemmish
>>
>>My image of Scardale[1] was of the little hamlets out Tideswell way,
>>mainly because my husband hired a young man to work with him at Ferodo,
>
>
> In Chapel?
>
>
Yes; he was International Operations Manager there for a couple of years.
>>who was living in one of those hamlets with his girlfriend in a tiny
>>stone cottage that you had to walk across fields to ge to. He rode to
>>work on a motorbike, and Geoff took pity on him and gave him his old
>>leathers to wear since he would get to work looking like a drowned rat.
>>
>>It was very easy to get cut off, living up there. I can remember not
>>being able to drive on the A623 over Tideswell Moor, because even a
>>modest snowfall would drift and block the roads. We used to take a short
>>cut through Sparrowpit in the summer, and even looked at buying a house
>>there, but when it snowed, those sunken roads filled up with snow. And
>>that was practically on a main road.
>
>
> That sounds very much like my image of Scardale, and definitely off
> that A623, somewhere down towards Longnor.
>
>
Well, it's definitely near Longnor.
I enjoyed the book very much; she really catches the atmosphere of those
close-knit little villages. I must be reading too many mystery novels
though, because I guessed what happened about halfway through.
Fortunately, enjoyment of the novel isn't dependent on the puzzle being
solved.
Fran
CDB
"Mike Barnes" <june...@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MS5T0BIP...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid...
> In alt.usage.english, Django Cat wrote:
>>>ITYM the *Quiet* Woman in *Earl* Sterndale.
>>>
>>> http://www.cressbrook.co.uk/buxton/qtwoman.jpg
>>
>>Is that the sign on the Earl Sterndale pub?
>
> I think it is. Take a close look at the second picture...
>
>>> http://www.peakdistrictcottages.net/dpdop101.html
>
> .. and you can see its predecessor, flat against the wall about the
> left
> door. Also see
>
> http://www.cressbrook.co.uk/buxton/sterndale.htm
>
>>I've never been
>>in, but I'll have to give it a try.
>
Nothing like learning from experience.
Mark Brader
>> Well, [Brussels is] one of only two cities I've been in where there
>> is an outdoor public elevator to take people up and down a hill:
> There's one in the small Italian town my brother lives in. And they're
> quite common in European ski resorts.
Interesting, I had no idea. I would expect inclined transportation modes
like funiculars and aerial cable cars to be more common.
> But I'm not sure how closely you define "city".
It was irrelevant, as the Brussels and Lisbon examples are the only ones
I've seen *anywhere*. Now I know better. Thanks.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto Premature generalization is
m...@vex.net the square root of all evil.
TsuiDF
Mark Brader wrote:
> Stephanie Mitchell signs:
>
> > Stephanie
> > in Brussels -- now *this* is flat
>
> Well, it's one of only two cities I've been in where there is an outdoor
> public elevator to take people up and down a hill:
>
>
That's one more than I knew about.
Are there lots of cities where there are outdoor public escalators,
other than Barcelona and Hong Kong? In the latter I once had an
editing job to which the commute was by escalator . . . somehow that
improved the job.
Stephanie
in Brussels
not near the elevator
Django Cat
<fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
>Django Cat wrote:
>
>>>
>>>My image of Scardale[1] was of the little hamlets out Tideswell way,
>>>mainly because my husband hired a young man to work with him at Ferodo,
>>
>>
>> In Chapel?
>>
>>
>
>Yes; he was International Operations Manager there for a couple of years.
>
>>>who was living in one of those hamlets with his girlfriend in a tiny
>>>stone cottage that you had to walk across fields to ge to. He rode to
>>>work on a motorbike, and Geoff took pity on him and gave him his old
>>>leathers to wear since he would get to work looking like a drowned rat.
>>>
>>>It was very easy to get cut off, living up there. I can remember not
>>>being able to drive on the A623 over Tideswell Moor, because even a
>>>modest snowfall would drift and block the roads. We used to take a short
>>>cut through Sparrowpit in the summer, and even looked at buying a house
>>>there, but when it snowed, those sunken roads filled up with snow. And
>>>that was practically on a main road.
>>
>>
>> That sounds very much like my image of Scardale, and definitely off
>> that A623, somewhere down towards Longnor.
>>
>>
>
>Well, it's definitely near Longnor.
Come to think of it, Longnor features in the plot doesn't it?
>
>I enjoyed the book very much; she really catches the atmosphere of those
>close-knit little villages. I must be reading too many mystery novels
>though, because I guessed what happened about halfway through.
Me too...
>
>Fortunately, enjoyment of the novel isn't dependent on the puzzle being
>solved.
>
Yes, she's strong on atmosphere and set pieces, but not someone you
read for the 'whodunnit factor'.
DC
Mike Barnes
>>> Well, [Brussels is] one of only two cities I've been in where there
>>> is an outdoor public elevator to take people up and down a hill:
>
>Mike Barnes:
>> There's one in the small Italian town my brother lives in. And they're
>> quite common in European ski resorts.
>
>Interesting, I had no idea. I would expect inclined transportation modes
>like funiculars and aerial cable cars to be more common.
Generally they are more common, for sure. The lifts that I'm thinking of
are sited where the gradient is too great for anything else.
I've thought of another one. There's a lift at the top of the Klein
Matterhorn (mountain, 3883m) in Switzerland. To get there you use
several cable cars, the last of which takes you to about (I'm guessing)
30 metres below the pointy summit. From there a 100-metre-ish tunnel
goes horizontally through the mountain to the other side. Half way along
the tunnel there's a short side tunnel to the lift, which takes you up
to the top.
Thinking on I suspect that the lift might be owned and operated by the
cable car company so this one might not qualify as "public", though
AFAIK anyone is free to use it. The approach from the other side doesn't
require the use of a cable car.
Mark Brader
>>>> Well, [Brussels is] one of only two cities I've been in where there
>>>> is an outdoor public elevator to take people up and down a hill:
Mike Barnes:
> I've thought of another one. There's a lift at the top of the Klein
> Matterhorn (mountain, 3883m) in Switzerland. ... Half way along
> the tunnel there's a short side tunnel to the lift, which takes you up
> to the top.
> Thinking on I suspect that the lift might be owned and operated by the
> cable car company so this one might not qualify as "public", though
> AFAIK anyone is free to use it. ...
Well, I didn't have ownership in mind, more that anyone who came along
could use the elevator; but also that it was a standalone thing, not part
of some other entity that you might pay for. (That is, for use by the
general public rather than customers of some entity.) For example, this
elevator <http://www.transittoronto.org/images/subway-5120-06.jpg> is
outdoors, but only open to fare-paying subway passengers, and is not the
sort of thing I had in mind (besides that it doesn't go up a hill).
Most important, this Swiss elevator does not appear to be *outdoors*, as
the elevator shaft would then be visible in this image:
<http://ski-zermatt.com/mattnet/features/panoramas/klein_summer_lg.htm>
(Note that the image shows a full 360 degrees and then some; the right
side is the same as the left.)
Underground elevators are more common than outdoor ones in my experience.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Anyone who can handle a needle convincingly can make
m...@vex.net | us see a thread which is not there." --E.H. Gombrich
Mike Barnes
>as the elevator shaft would then be visible in this image: <http://ski-
>zermatt.com/mattnet/features/panoramas/klein_summer_lg.htm> (Note that
>the image shows a full 360 degrees and then some; the right side is the
>same as the left.)
Then I'm not clear what you mean by "outdoors". Do you perhaps mean with
an exposed shaft?
I suspect that the concrete cuboid at the left and right of your picture
is the top of the lift shaft (I don't remember it too well, being more
interested in the view at the time).
IIRC the track to the right of the line of pylons leads down (!) from
the far end of the tunnel I described earlier.
Mark Brader
>> Most important, this Swiss elevator does not appear to be *outdoors*,
>> as the elevator shaft would then be visible in this image: <http://ski-
Mike Barnes:
> Then I'm not clear what you mean by "outdoors".
Now there's an ambiguity I never thought of. Is a cave outdoors? Is a
tunnel outdoors? I say no.
> Do you perhaps mean with an exposed shaft?
Yeah, if you like.
--
Mark Brader "I can say nothing at this point."
Toronto "Well, you were wrong."
m...@vex.net -- Monty Python's Flying Circus
Mike Barnes
>>> Most important, this Swiss elevator does not appear to be *outdoors*,
>>> as the elevator shaft would then be visible in this image: <http://ski-
>>> zermatt.com/mattnet/features/panoramas/klein_summer_lg.htm> ...
>
>Mike Barnes:
>> Then I'm not clear what you mean by "outdoors".
>
>Now there's an ambiguity I never thought of. Is a cave outdoors? Is a
>tunnel outdoors? I say no.
Fair enough, for the purposes you used "outdoors". My earlier list of
examples still stands, though in one case I'm awaiting confirmation from
my Italian agent. At least two of the ski-resort lifts (in Zermatt and
Plan Peisey) have exposed shafts (only the upper portion in Plan
Peisey).
But generally, I'd say that a cave without doors and a tunnel without
doors were both outdoors. To me outdoors means not indoors, and indoors
means you have to go through a doorway to get there from outdoors. NSOED
has:
*indoors* [...] Within or into a house or other building; under cover.
So I suppose it depends on what "cover" is. For example under a tree is
clearly not "indoors". I suspect that walls of some kind are essential
to indoorness.
Mark Brader
> Well, [Brussels is] one of only two cities I've been in where there is
> an outdoor public elevator to take people up and down a hill...
(the other being Lisbon).
Oops, wrong. Donna Richoux informs me that there is at least one in
Bern: <http://www.bern-stadt.ch/Matte_Plattform_Senkeltram_1896.gif>.
But while I have been there, it was only a very short visit and I did
not see, or learn about, this elevator. My apologies for the error.
(Or: *No*body expects the Swiss Exception!)
--
Mark Brader | "Have you got anything without Spam in it?"
Toronto | "Well, there's Spam, egg, sausage, and Spam.
m...@vex.net | That's not got *much* Spam in it." --Monty Python