stroppy, bolshie
Holger Freese
English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
"pushy" or "touchy"?
Many thanks in advance,
Ho
Richard Chambers
"Holger Freese" <hol...@freese-privat.de> wrote in message
news:81mkt5...@mid.individual.net...
I cannot give you the USA equivalent, as I do not speak the language.
In BrE, "stroppy" and "bolshy" do not really mean "pushy" or "touchy".
Both terms mean the same thing:- "standing one's ground, and arguing
one's case, loudly and rather aggressively".
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
tony cooper
It's difficult to come up with a really comparable US usage.
"Stroppy" is belligerent or bad-tempered, so we do have terms for
that. "Bolshie", though, comes from "bolshevik" and that means
"communist" to us. It seems to be used more in UK usage to describe
someone who is a political left-winger or liberal.
We're OK here with the political left, but "communist" is a very
negative thing to us. For us to call a leftist a "commie" is
hyperbole.
You might use "radical liberal", but that doesn't strongly enough
present the belligerent aspect.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
franzi
a Bolshevik, that is to say a trades unionist. The union men are
always refusing to do what they're told and making trouble for honest
employers, so they are obviously Reds and plotting revolution. The
word broadened in scope and became apt to describe any sullen and
uncooperative teenager, or nail that stood up and needed to be
hammered down.
Stroppy is a sort of angry, always likely to be in a bate. It
describes someone having a compulsion to argue irascibly, whatever the
cause.
In this newsgroup, it would be possible to label a poster as stroppy,
from the general tone of their posts over time, but never bolshy,
because bolshy is an attitude to authority. And the Committee here has
the lightest of touches.
--
franzi
tony cooper
Perhaps I misunderstand the UK use of "bolshie". Doesn't the ground
one stands for have to be on the left side of the political spectrum?
Ultra-conservatives also stand their ground aggressively, but I
wouldn't think they would be called "bolshies".
James Silverton
>> "Holger Freese" <hol...@freese-privat.de> wrote in message
>> news:81mkt5...@mid.individual.net...
>>> I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
>>> English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
>>> What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
>>> "pushy" or "touchy"?
>>> Many thanks in advance,
>>
>> I cannot give you the USA equivalent, as I do not speak the
>> language.
>>
>> In BrE, "stroppy" and "bolshy" do not really mean "pushy" or
>> "touchy". Both terms mean the same thing:- "standing one's ground,
>> and arguing one's case, loudly and rather aggressively".
>>
"Bolshie" did mean "communist". Do you remember the beginning of the
song?
"Harry was a Bolshie
One of Lenin's lads
Til he was foully murdered by reactionary cads"
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:38:56 +0200, "Holger Freese"
><hol...@freese-privat.de> wrote:
>
>>I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
>>English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
>>What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
>>"pushy" or "touchy"?
>>Many thanks in advance,
>>
>>Ho
>
>It's difficult to come up with a really comparable US usage.
>"Stroppy" is belligerent or bad-tempered, so we do have terms for
>that. "Bolshie", though, comes from "bolshevik" and that means
>"communist" to us. It seems to be used more in UK usage to describe
>someone who is a political left-winger or liberal.
>
It can be used as a literal description of a left-winger. It can also be
used of someone who is uncooperative, rebellious or resistant to
authority.
OED:
stroppy, a.
[? abbrev. of OBSTREPEROUS a. with altered stem-vowel.]
Bad-tempered, rebellious, awkward, obstreperous, unruly. Hence
stroppiness.
strop, n.2
Brit. colloq.
As a mass noun: belligerence, peevishness (rare). As a count noun: a
fit of temper; a sulk.
http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/s.htm
stroppy Adj. Bad tempered. {Informal}
strop Noun. A bad mood, a fit of fury. E.g."I got in a strop after
that bloke knocked over my pint of beer."
OED:
Bolshy, Bolshie, n. and a.
B. attrib. or as adj.
a. = BOLSHEVISTIC a.
b. transf. and fig. Left-wing; uncooperative, recalcitrant.
Hence bolshiness, obstructive or recalcitrant behaviour;
political or temperamental disinclination to obey authority.
http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/b.htm
bolshie Adj. Angrily provocative. Originating from the socialist
revolutionaries the Bolsheviks.
>We're OK here with the political left, but "communist" is a very
>negative thing to us. For us to call a leftist a "commie" is
>hyperbole.
>
>You might use "radical liberal", but that doesn't strongly enough
>present the belligerent aspect.
That AmE use of "liberal" does not cross the Atlantic well.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Richard Chambers
--------------------------
Richard Chambers
> I cannot give you the USA equivalent, as I do not speak the language.
>
> In BrE, "stroppy" and "bolshy" do not really mean "pushy" or "touchy".
> Both terms mean the same thing:- "standing one's ground, and arguing
> one's case, loudly and rather aggressively".
--------------------------
Franzi:-
I wonder if the adjective is bolshy and the noun bolshie. A Bolshie is
a Bolshevik, that is to say a trades unionist. The union men are
always refusing to do what they're told and making trouble for honest
employers, so they are obviously Reds and plotting revolution. The
word broadened in scope and became apt to describe any sullen and
uncooperative teenager, or nail that stood up and needed to be
hammered down.
---------------------------
Myself:-
I think that your analysis of "bolshy" is an improvement on my own, and is
a more accurate definition. I would recommend this definition to the
original poster, in preference to my own. We seem to agree completely on
the meaning of "stroppy".
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
Nick Spalding
on Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:47:50 -0400:
That was the original meaning but it has come to mean something more
like "obstreperous".
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Robin Bignall
The Communist meaning is the origin of the noun, but the adjective is
more general. COD10:
bolshie (also bolshy) Brit. informal
· adj. deliberately combative or uncooperative.
· n. (pl. bolshies) (Bolshie) dated a Bolshevik or socialist.
– DERIVATIVES bolshiness n.
– ORIGIN C20: abbrev. of Bolshevik.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
LFS
> tony wrote on Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:47:50 -0400:
>
>>> "Holger Freese" <hol...@freese-privat.de> wrote in message
>>> news:81mkt5...@mid.individual.net...
>>>> I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
>>>> English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
>>>> What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
>>>> "pushy" or "touchy"?
>>>> Many thanks in advance,
>>>
>>> I cannot give you the USA equivalent, as I do not speak the
>>> language.
>>>
>>> In BrE, "stroppy" and "bolshy" do not really mean "pushy" or
>>> "touchy". Both terms mean the same thing:- "standing one's ground,
>>> and arguing one's case, loudly and rather aggressively".
>>>
>
> "Bolshie" did mean "communist". Do you remember the beginning of the song?
>
> "Harry was a Bolshie
> One of Lenin's lads
> Til he was foully murdered by reactionary cads"
>
>
Ah, tonight's STS...I wonder if I can remember all the words.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Redshade
wrote:
>
> --
> Peter Duncanson, UK
> (in alt.usage.english)
In my schoolboy days (60s) "stoppy" was used to describe an ill-
tempered Master who was quick to administer physical chastisement.
The strap itself had long been abolished ( replaced by a cane or ruler
to the hand or nether regions or the well aimed board rubber to the
noggin ) but the term persisted in schoolboy slang.
John O'Flaherty
<et.in.arca...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On Apr 2, 7:03 pm, "Richard Chambers"
><richard.chambers7_NoSp...@ntlworld.net> wrote:
>> "Holger Freese" <hol...@freese-privat.de> wrote in message
>>
>> news:81mkt5...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> >I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
>> > English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
>> > What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
>> > "pushy" or "touchy"?
>> > Many thanks in advance,
>>
>> I cannot give you the USA equivalent, as I do not speak the language.
>>
>> In BrE, "stroppy" and "bolshy" do not really mean "pushy" or "touchy".
>> Both terms mean the same thing:- "standing one's ground, and arguing
>> one's case, loudly and rather aggressively".
>>
>I wonder if the adjective is bolshy and the noun bolshie. A Bolshie is
>a Bolshevik, that is to say a trades unionist. The union men are
>always refusing to do what they're told and making trouble for honest
>employers, so they are obviously Reds and plotting revolution. The
>word broadened in scope and became apt to describe any sullen and
>uncooperative teenager, or nail that stood up and needed to be
>hammered down.
>
>Stroppy is a sort of angry, always likely to be in a bate.
Is that a typo for "debate", or this sense of "bate" from AHD-
"To flap the wings wildly or frantically. Used of a falcon."?
>It
>describes someone having a compulsion to argue irascibly, whatever the
>cause.
>
>In this newsgroup, it would be possible to label a poster as stroppy,
>from the general tone of their posts over time, but never bolshy,
>because bolshy is an attitude to authority. And the Committee here has
>the lightest of touches.
--
John
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
Of a human -
OED:
bait, n.2, bate, n.6
A fit of bad temper; a rage. Hence baity, batey a.
'"He was in an awful bait" was common in the Clapham Grammar
School, 1857.'A. L. Mayhew in Eng. Dial. Dict. s.v. Bate n.3.
1882 ‘F. ANSTEY’ Vice Versâ (ed. 4) iii. 48 It would put him in no
end of a bait.
1899 E. PHILLPOTTS Human Boy 95 I've just left Milly, and she's in a
frightful bate.
....
Irwell
>
> In my schoolboy days (60s) "stoppy" was used to describe an ill-
> tempered Master who was quick to administer physical chastisement.
> The strap itself had long been abolished ( replaced by a cane or ruler
> to the hand or nether regions or the well aimed board rubber to the
> noggin ) but the term persisted in schoolboy slang.
All adults seemed to be bad tempered in the pre war days,
teachers, parents, policemen, shop keepers all had
a divine right to administer bodily punishment.
Maybe the depression and the looming war had something to do with it.
HVS
> OED:
>
> stroppy, a.
-snip->
Come, come: one doesn't really need a dictionary to define "stroppy": just
think of a 14-year-old who doesn't want to do what his parents want him to
do.
(And yes, you're correct: the last 12 words of that definition are indeed
redundant.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Redshade
> tempered Master who was quick to administer physical chastisement.
> The strap itself had long been abolished ( replaced by a cane or ruler
> to the hand or nether regions or the well aimed board rubber to the
> noggin ) but the term persisted in schoolboy slang.
*Read "stroppy"
Peter Moylan
> In my schoolboy days (60s) "stoppy" was used to describe an ill-
> tempered Master who was quick to administer physical chastisement.
> The strap itself had long been abolished ( replaced by a cane or ruler
> to the hand or nether regions or the well aimed board rubber to the
> noggin ) but the term persisted in schoolboy slang.
In my experience the word "strop" was only ever used to describe a razor
strop, a leather belt-like object used for sharpening razors. This was
indeed sometimes used at home as an instrument of punishment, but the
item used by teachers was always the "strap".
Did "strop" have a wider meaning?
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Redshade
Eh?
Strop/Strap "wider meanings"? Same word methinks. A leather belt as
used by a horseman/schoolmaster/parent in days past.
tony cooper
wrote:
>On 02 Apr 2010, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote
>
>> OED:
>>
>> stroppy, a.
>
>-snip->
>
>Come, come: one doesn't really need a dictionary to define "stroppy": just
>think of a 14-year-old who doesn't want to do what his parents want him to
>do.
Or, think of Peter T. Daniel's behavior in aue or aeu.
tony cooper
Or even Peter T. Daniels'.
CDB
>
> I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
> English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
> What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
> "pushy" or "touchy"?
>
"Mean, cantankerous, having a difficult and contrary disposition".
The usual cautions regarding the use of unfamiliar slang apply.
Jerry Friedman
"You don't gotta get all mad." In demotic American English.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Barnes
>one doesn't really need a dictionary to define "stroppy": just
>think of a 14-year-old who doesn't want to do what his parents want him to
>do.
But that 14-y-o could be sulky, which is definitely not stroppy.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Nick Spalding
<gcrcr55k81apkun07...@4ax.com>
on Fri, 02 Apr 2010 23:26:33 +0100:
That was still in use in my prep school days, 1939-1945.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
HVS
> HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>:
>> one doesn't really need a dictionary to define "stroppy": just
>> think of a 14-year-old who doesn't want to do what his parents want him to
>> do.
>
> But that 14-y-o could be sulky, which is definitely not stroppy.
Oh, he could be that, too; but my bet is that he's stroppy as well.
Peter Moylan
belt/razor strop to sharpen a sword or razor. I have never heard
"strapping" with that meaning.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:03:08 +0100, "Richard Chambers"
No, and it need (BrE = needs) not have anything to do with politics.
Stroppy I've always understood as short for obstreperous.
And Bolshies are always revolting about something.
Perhaps the nearest US equivalent is some senses of maverick.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:38:56 +0200, "Holger Freese"
><hol...@freese-privat.de> wrote:
>
>>I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
>>English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
>>What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
>>"pushy" or "touchy"?
>>Many thanks in advance,
>>
>>Ho
>
>It's difficult to come up with a really comparable US usage.
>"Stroppy" is belligerent or bad-tempered, so we do have terms for
>that. "Bolshie", though, comes from "bolshevik" and that means
>"communist" to us. It seems to be used more in UK usage to describe
>someone who is a political left-winger or liberal.
When I was in the UK it was used to describe someone who was stroppy or
obstreperous, even in completely a-political cricumstances.
In the USSR, the Bolsheviks (majority) eventually became the Communist Party
of the Soviet Union after the split from the Mensheviks (minority) who became
socialists.
But the Bolsheviks didn't like the liberal revolution (the February
Revolution) and so staged the October Revolution (on 7 November). So "bolshie"
in UK usage came to mean people who were always revolting, even against
revolutions, and always took the contrary viewpoint to whatever was being
proposed.
Don Phillipson
news:81mkt5...@mid.individual.net...
> I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
> English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
> What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
> "pushy" or "touchy"?
A relevant difference is that different social classes use
these words almost exclusively. Stroppy is a proletarian
word and bolshy a middle/upper class word. Hardly any
individual would spontaneously use both even in different
contexts.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Holger Freese
tony cooper wrote:
>
> It's difficult to come up with a really comparable US usage.
> "Stroppy" is belligerent or bad-tempered, so we do have terms for
> that.
OK then, let me know! What about simply "rude"?
Greetings,
Ho
Richard Chambers
>I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
> English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
> What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
> "pushy" or "touchy"?
> Many thanks in advance,
Would you agree that "feisty" means basically the same as "stroppy",
except for the following two points:-
1. "Feisty" is more likely to be applied to females, while "stroppy" is
more likely to be applied to males.
2. "Feisty" implies a certain amount of approval, or even admiration, by
the speaker. "Stroppy" almost always implies criticism.
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
That's a very definite statement.
Just for fun I've searched the website of The Times (of London).
Times Online Results
about 589 for stroppy
about 253 for bolshie
It is difficult to draw any quick conclusions because the relevant word
sometimes appears only in a headline not in the body of an article.
CDB
> recalcitrant.
>
Perhaps more bolshy than stroppy, then, if I have understood the
discussion. The usage of slang words is notoriously slippery; the
definitions were cribbed, without credit, from a couple of sources at
OneLook. Ow.
>
Would you consider a sidewinder to be an o'nery critter?
ke...@cam.ac.uk
Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>Perhaps I misunderstand the UK use of "bolshie". Doesn't the ground
>>one stands for have to be on the left side of the political spectrum?
>>Ultra-conservatives also stand their ground aggressively, but I
>>wouldn't think they would be called "bolshies".
>
>No, and it need (BrE = needs) not have anything to do with politics.
Oy! I've never heard anyone in the UK say "needs not" in that sort of context.
The content is right, though: "bolshie" in UK English is most unlikely to have
any political reference at all.
Katy
ke...@cam.ac.uk
Don Phillipson <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
>
>A relevant difference is that different social classes use
>these words almost exclusively. Stroppy is a proletarian
>word and bolshy a middle/upper class word. Hardly any
>individual would spontaneously use both even in different
>contexts.
This may be true in Canada, but I don't think it works in the UK. I and most
of my middle-class friends would be much more likely to use "stroppy" then
"bolshie" but both are part of our normal vocabularies.
Katy
ke...@cam.ac.uk
Richard Chambers <richard.cham...@ntlworld.net> wrote:
>
>Would you agree that "feisty" means basically the same as "stroppy",
>except for the following two points:-
>1. "Feisty" is more likely to be applied to females, while "stroppy" is
>more likely to be applied to males.
>2. "Feisty" implies a certain amount of approval, or even admiration, by
>the speaker. "Stroppy" almost always implies criticism.
I don't think of them as all that close. "Feisty" is definitely a character
trait, whereas "stroppy" is much more likely to be a transient condition.
Almost anyone will have occasional moments of stroppiness.
I also think "feisty" is cheap journalese and, as you say,
largely (I think exclusively?) applied to women. It carries a slight
implication of "gosh, you don't expect a *woman* to be like that".
Katy
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
...even among politicians and their wives.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article717200.ece
CHERIE BLAIR is a "bolshie Scouser" according to the man who knows
her best — her husband Tony.
....
She admits to a rebellious streak. "My husband always says that I'm
a bolshie Scouser. Maybe that's the explanation. But I always point
out to him that I think the women from the North West are very
strong and independent."
Apparently cities can be bolshie:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article7075464.ece
Manchester vs Liverpool: which is best?
Manchester's grand act of civic chutzpah was stealing the sea from
under Liverpool's nose and bringing it to Salford. Liverpool has
never forgiven it...
(That was the building of the Manchester Ship Canal.)
Between them, across the Lancashire plain, lie the disputed border
territories; the Kashmirs of Cloth Cap Land, St Helens, Haydock,
Bolton and Wigan. I grew up in the latter almost halfway between the
two swaggering colossi, once dilapidated, now rejuvenated. Thus I am
-> afforded the luxury of knowing that both are vibrant, bolshie and
subtly different cities that can keep a visitor thrilled, mesmerised
and handsomely fed and watered.
Richard Chambers
No, "stroppy" is a bit more than simply "rude". "Rudeness" can often be
gratuitous, dished out for no proper reason. "Stroppiness" is always a
well-aimed aggression, which usually includes copious rudeness, and is in
defence of a position taken in an argument. Whether this position is
right-thinking or wrong-headed, is a separate question. [As another
contributor has already mentioned, think of a stroppy teenage boy doing
his worst in an argument with his parents].
Stroppiness includes elements of both rudeness and aggression. I would not
describe a lawyer, aggressively pursuing his case in court, as stroppy.
His is a (superficially) polite aggression, which is therefore not
stroppiness.
Richard Chambers Leeds UK.
Mike Barnes
>On 03 Apr 2010, Mike Barnes wrote
>
>> HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>:
>>> one doesn't really need a dictionary to define "stroppy": just
>>> think of a 14-year-old who doesn't want to do what his parents want him to
>>> do.
>>
>> But that 14-y-o could be sulky, which is definitely not stroppy.
>
>Oh, he could be that, too; but my bet is that he's stroppy as well.
But to me they're incompatible. Sulky is quiet, withdrawn. Stroppy is
noisy, aggressive.
musika
ke...@cam.ac.uk <ke...@cam.ac.uk> typed:
"Now then, now than"
--
Ray
UK
CDB
here, and I've never heard "bolshie". We don't really have the same
kind of class-distinction either.
tony cooper
<hol...@freese-privat.de> wrote:
>
>tony cooper wrote:
>
>>
>> It's difficult to come up with a really comparable US usage.
>> "Stroppy" is belligerent or bad-tempered, so we do have terms for
>> that.
>
>OK then, let me know!
I did: belligerent.
>What about simply "rude"?
>
Not rude. You can be rude by just turning your back.
Cheryl P.
them. They aren't common usage in my part of Canada either.
I'd say 'stroppy' would mean 'bad tempered' or 'belligerant' and
'bolshie' as almost the same; aggresive or belligerant in the defense of
one's rights (real or self-invented). Both types of actions could
involve rudeness as well.
--
Cheryl
R H Draney
In my experience, "feisty" is never used in reference to someone under the age
of eighty....r
--
"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly."
- Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>Richard Chambers filted:
>>
>>Holger Freese wrote
>>
>>>I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
>>> English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
>>> What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
>>> "pushy" or "touchy"?
>>> Many thanks in advance,
>>
>>Would you agree that "feisty" means basically the same as "stroppy",
>>except for the following two points:-
>>1. "Feisty" is more likely to be applied to females, while "stroppy" is
>>more likely to be applied to males.
>>2. "Feisty" implies a certain amount of approval, or even admiration, by
>>the speaker. "Stroppy" almost always implies criticism.
>
>In my experience, "feisty" is never used in reference to someone under the age
>of eighty....r
Expand your experience here:
"Bears and frostbite no match for feisty women"
http://www.kidderminstershuttle.co.uk/shuttlextra/lifestyle/4854029.Bears_and_frostbite_no_match_for_feisty_women/
or
http://tinyurl.com/yeb7lau
It is about feisty women, ages 63, 40 and 30.
R H Draney
Yabbut, you lot talk about 22-year-old "geezers"....r
Robin Bignall
>On Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:25:14 -0700 (PDT), Redshade wrote:
>
>
>>
>> In my schoolboy days (60s) "stoppy" was used to describe an ill-
>> tempered Master who was quick to administer physical chastisement.
>> The strap itself had long been abolished ( replaced by a cane or ruler
>> to the hand or nether regions or the well aimed board rubber to the
>> noggin ) but the term persisted in schoolboy slang.
>
>All adults seemed to be bad tempered in the pre war days,
>teachers, parents, policemen, shop keepers all had
>a divine right to administer bodily punishment.
>
>Maybe the depression and the looming war had something to do with it.
More likely that "children should be seen but not heard", a leftover
from Victorian days that produced a clip round the ear for a lippy or
rowdy child. How things have changed!
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
Robin Bignall
wrote:
According to COD, "ornery" simply means "bad tempered", but that's a
BrE definition of an AmE word. "Stroppy" from the same source means
"bad tempered, argumentative".
Mike Lyle
> On 3 Apr 2010 10:52:28 -0700, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> Richard Chambers filted:
>>>
>>> Would you agree that "feisty" means basically the same as "stroppy",
>>> except for the following two points:-
>>> 1. "Feisty" is more likely to be applied to females, while
>>> "stroppy" is more likely to be applied to males.
>>> 2. "Feisty" implies a certain amount of approval, or even
>>> admiration, by the speaker. "Stroppy" almost always implies
>>> criticism.
>>
>> In my experience, "feisty" is never used in reference to someone
>> under the age of eighty....r
>
> Expand your experience here:
> "Bears and frostbite no match for feisty women"
> http://www.kidderminstershuttle.co.uk/shuttlextra/lifestyle/4854029.Bears_and_frostbite_no_match_for_feisty_women/
> or
> http://tinyurl.com/yeb7lau
>
> It is about feisty women, ages 63, 40 and 30.
I think I heard the director say Dr Who's latest girl was "feisty".
(She's terrific, by the way: and the performance of the child playing
her younger self was, if anything, more astonishing.)
--
Mike.
Al in St. Lou
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <0c2dr5pqj6fnei5fh...@4ax.com>
> tony cooper <tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 02 Apr 2010 23:35:36 +0100, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>
>>>On 02 Apr 2010, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote
>>>
>>>> OED:
>>>>
>>>> stroppy, a.
>>>
>>>-snip->
>>>
>>>Come, come: one doesn't really need a dictionary to define "stroppy": just
>>>think of a 14-year-old who doesn't want to do what his parents want him to
>>>do.
>
>> Or, think of Peter T. Daniel's behavior in aue or aeu.
>
>Ah... so PTD is 14?
Perpetually!
--
Al in St. Lou
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>BrE filted:
>>
>>On 3 Apr 2010 10:52:28 -0700, R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>In my experience, "feisty" is never used in reference to someone under the age
>>>of eighty....r
>>
>>Expand your experience here:
>>"Bears and frostbite no match for feisty women"
>>http://www.kidderminstershuttle.co.uk/shuttlextra/lifestyle/4854029.Bears_and_frostbite_no_match_for_feisty_women/
>>or
>>http://tinyurl.com/yeb7lau
>>
>>It is about feisty women, ages 63, 40 and 30.
>
>Yabbut, you lot talk about 22-year-old "geezers"....r
True.
Robert Bannister
have never seen or heard the word used by a non-American even though the
word is allegedly Irish. Of course, she is presumably a journalist which
can explain away many odd language uses.
--
Rob Bannister
Sara Lorimer
LFS
We discussed "feisty" last May in a thread on the appointment of Carol
Ann Duffy as poet laureate, started by Tony under the heading "A
different sort of 'Aargh'" [1].
I have never to my knowledge been described as feisty and I would agree
that the word carries a certain hint of approval but, as I observed in
that earlier thread, it is generally applied to women and carries an
even stronger sense of patronising, IMO.
I have more than once been described as stroppy by colleagues whose
views I have challenged. This word is often combined with "mare" these
days, indicating that it is more frequently applied to women.
And I have always been proud to be bolshy, in the sense of rebelling
against authority.
(I agree with Mike about the two actresses and was even won over by the
new Doctor, somewhat to my surprise as I am a huge Tennant fan - I like
the return to the mad scientist persona.)
[1] Elsethread we have discussed single and double quotation marks - it
now occurs to me that nesting of this type does seem to call for a
distinction.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Holger Freese
>> >>>> I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
>> >>>> English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
>> >>>> What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
>> >>>> "pushy" or "touchy"?
>> >>>>
>
> Pissy?
Jaaaa, danke! That's exactly what I was looking for.
Happy Easter!
Ho
CDB
spelled "ficety". In pursuit of this thought, I looked up the
etymology:
>
1896, Amer.Eng. from feist "small dog," from fice, fist (Amer.Eng.,
1805) "small dog;" short for fysting curre "stinking cur," attested
from 1520s, from M.E. fysten, fisten "break wind" (mid-15c.); related
to O.E. fisting "stink." The 1811 slang dictionary defines fice as "a
small windy escape backwards, more obvious to the nose than ears;
frequently by old ladies charged on their lap-dogs."
>
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=feisty
>
SBD. Who knew?
Steve Hayes
>In article <3gber5tbn8us6o7k7...@4ax.com>,
>Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>Perhaps I misunderstand the UK use of "bolshie". Doesn't the ground
>>>one stands for have to be on the left side of the political spectrum?
>>>Ultra-conservatives also stand their ground aggressively, but I
>>>wouldn't think they would be called "bolshies".
>>
>>No, and it need (BrE = needs) not have anything to do with politics.
>
>Oy! I've never heard anyone in the UK say "needs not" in that sort of context.
I meant to put in a question mark there, but it seems to have dropped out.
Anyway thanks for confirming what I hoped to hear.
>The content is right, though: "bolshie" in UK English is most unlikely to have
>any political reference at all.
Or at least to the Bolshevik Party. It's become an independent idiom, and had
become so 45 years ago when I first heard it.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
<richard.cham...@ntlworld.net> wrote:
>Holger Freese wrote
>
>>I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
>> English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
>> What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
>> "pushy" or "touchy"?
>> Many thanks in advance,
>
>Would you agree that "feisty" means basically the same as "stroppy",
>except for the following two points:-
>1. "Feisty" is more likely to be applied to females, while "stroppy" is
>more likely to be applied to males.
>2. "Feisty" implies a certain amount of approval, or even admiration, by
>the speaker. "Stroppy" almost always implies criticism.
To me both "stroppy" and "bolshie" imply a certain amount of contumaciousness.
"Feisty" doesn't. "Feisty" I would apply to one of our politicians, Patricia
de Lille, and I voted for her party in the last two elections.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>(I agree with Mike about the two actresses and was even won over by the
>new Doctor, somewhat to my surprise as I am a huge Tennant fan - I like
>the return to the mad scientist persona.)
From an interview with Matt Smith, the new Doctor, in The Times
_Playlist_ (arts magazine and TV and radio listings) current edition:
Truth be told, his Doctor is galaxies away from Tennant's; the
tweeds, recklessness and hyperactive donnishness are more
reminiscent of another pop-cultural treasure: Sherlock Holmes.
Perhaps there's been some thespian osmosis, because the BBC's new
Holmes series, also written by Moffat, is being shot next door to
_Doctor Who_ in Cardiff. "My mate Benedict (Cumberbatch) plays
Holmes, so we have lovely mornings where we go, 'Hi Sherlock! Hi
Doctor!' I think they should do an episode with him: these two great
minds going: 'Ding-ding-ding! Watcha got?"
ObDonnishness: this has nothing to do with an Osmond.
COED:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/donnish?view=uk
donnish
adjective resembling a college don, particularly in having a
pedantic manner.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/don_1?view=uk
don1
noun
1 a university teacher, especially a senior member of a college at
Oxford or Cambridge.
....
James Hogg
> On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 14:29:01 +0100 (BST), ke...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
>
>> In article <3gber5tbn8us6o7k7...@4ax.com>,
>> Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Perhaps I misunderstand the UK use of "bolshie". Doesn't the ground
>>>> one stands for have to be on the left side of the political spectrum?
>>>> Ultra-conservatives also stand their ground aggressively, but I
>>>> wouldn't think they would be called "bolshies".
>>> No, and it need (BrE = needs) not have anything to do with politics.
>> Oy! I've never heard anyone in the UK say "needs not" in that sort of context.
>
> I meant to put in a question mark there, but it seems to have dropped out.
> Anyway thanks for confirming what I hoped to hear.
>
>> The content is right, though: "bolshie" in UK English is most unlikely to have
>> any political reference at all.
>
> Or at least to the Bolshevik Party. It's become an independent idiom, and had
> become so 45 years ago when I first heard it.
Has anyone ever been called "menshie"?
--
James
Steve Hayes
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>> Or at least to the Bolshevik Party. It's become an independent idiom, and had
>> become so 45 years ago when I first heard it.
>
>Has anyone ever been called "menshie"?
Not to my knowledge. Perhaps that's proof of the old adage that winners get to
write the history, at least while they;re winning.
James Silverton
>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> Or at least to the Bolshevik Party. It's become an
>>> independent idiom, and had become so 45 years ago when I
>>> first heard it.
>>
>> Has anyone ever been called "menshie"?
> Not to my knowledge. Perhaps that's proof of the old adage
> that winners get to write the history, at least while they;re
> winning.
Since the Mensheviks did not exist for long, there was no real need to
have a familiar name.
Changing the subject some, "bolshie" reminded me of the use of
"organize" in trade union circles to only mean "form a trade union". I
can even remember when I first heard this usage. I was a summer trainee
at a BP oil refinery and we were given frequent lectures on the nature
of the company. I was a little puzzled when the "Industrial Relations"
manager referred to "organizing" workers.
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>In message <bb1hr5lulqhvoaciv...@4ax.com>
> Peter Duncanson (BrE) <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 07:57:35 +0100, LFS
>> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>(I agree with Mike about the two actresses and was even won over by the
>>>new Doctor, somewhat to my surprise as I am a huge Tennant fan - I like
>>>the return to the mad scientist persona.)
>
>> From an interview with Matt Smith, the new Doctor, in The Times
>> _Playlist_ (arts magazine and TV and radio listings) current edition:
>
>> Truth be told, his Doctor is galaxies away from Tennant's; the
>> tweeds, recklessness and hyperactive donnishness are more
>> reminiscent of another pop-cultural treasure: Sherlock Holmes.
>> Perhaps there's been some thespian osmosis, because the BBC's new
>> Holmes series, also written by Moffat, is being shot next door to
>> _Doctor Who_ in Cardiff. "My mate Benedict (Cumberbatch) plays
>> Holmes, so we have lovely mornings where we go, 'Hi Sherlock! Hi
>> Doctor!' I think they should do an episode with him: these two great
>> minds going: 'Ding-ding-ding! Watcha got?"
>
>Oooo, I agree. A Holmes and Doctor ep would be grand.
>
>Now, about this Moffat Sherlock Holmes, when's that on?
It just started in the UK on Saturday evening.
Ian Jackson
<haye...@telkomsa.net> writes
>On Sat, 3 Apr 2010 14:23:02 +0100, "Richard Chambers"
><richard.cham...@ntlworld.net> wrote:
>
>>Holger Freese wrote
>>
>>>I understand that "stroppy" and "bolshie/bolshy" are British
>>> English informal, as in "get stroppy/bolshie with someone".
>>> What I need is an American English equivalent. Surely not
>>> "pushy" or "touchy"?
>>> Many thanks in advance,
>>
>>Would you agree that "feisty" means basically the same as "stroppy",
>>except for the following two points:-
>>1. "Feisty" is more likely to be applied to females, while "stroppy" is
>>more likely to be applied to males.
>>2. "Feisty" implies a certain amount of approval, or even admiration, by
>>the speaker. "Stroppy" almost always implies criticism.
>
>To me both "stroppy" and "bolshie" imply a certain amount of contumaciousness.
>"Feisty" doesn't. "Feisty" I would apply to one of our politicians, Patricia
>de Lille, and I voted for her party in the last two elections.
>
- which is not necessarily a derogative description.
--
Ian
Amethyst Deceiver
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>On 05 Apr 2010 07:22:01 GMT, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <bb1hr5lulqhvoaciv...@4ax.com>
>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 04 Apr 2010 07:57:35 +0100, LFS
>>> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>(I agree with Mike about the two actresses and was even won over by the
>>>>new Doctor, somewhat to my surprise as I am a huge Tennant fan - I like
>>>>the return to the mad scientist persona.)
>>
>>> From an interview with Matt Smith, the new Doctor, in The Times
>>> _Playlist_ (arts magazine and TV and radio listings) current edition:
>>
>>> Truth be told, his Doctor is galaxies away from Tennant's; the
>>> tweeds, recklessness and hyperactive donnishness are more
>>> reminiscent of another pop-cultural treasure: Sherlock Holmes.
>>> Perhaps there's been some thespian osmosis, because the BBC's new
>>> Holmes series, also written by Moffat, is being shot next door to
>>> _Doctor Who_ in Cardiff. "My mate Benedict (Cumberbatch) plays
>>> Holmes, so we have lovely mornings where we go, 'Hi Sherlock! Hi
>>> Doctor!' I think they should do an episode with him: these two great
>>> minds going: 'Ding-ding-ding! Watcha got?"
>>
>>Oooo, I agree. A Holmes and Doctor ep would be grand.
>>
>>Now, about this Moffat Sherlock Holmes, when's that on?
>
>It just started in the UK on Saturday evening.
Damn, which channel?
I managed to miss Frost, too.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
It was on BBC1. It is repeated on Friday 9th at 21:00 on BBC3
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/programmes/schedules/2010/04/09
Episode 2 is on Saturday 10th at 18:15 on BBC1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcone/programmes/schedules/london/2010/04/10
Amethyst Deceiver
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
Nonono, The Sherlock Holmes! Doctor Who was marvellous!
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<ne...@lindsayendell.org.uk> wrote:
Don't Panic!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/tv/comingup/sherlock/
Sherlock... Coming soon to BBC One.
A contemporary take on the classic Arthur Conan Doyle stories,
Sherlock is a thrilling, funny, fast-paced adventure series set in
present-day London.
Co-created by Steven Moffat and Mark Gatiss, Sherlock stars Benedict
Cumberbatch as the new Sherlock Holmes and Martin Freeman as his
loyal friend, Doctor John Watson. Rupert Graves plays Inspector
Lestrade.
The iconic details from Conan Doyle's original books remain – they
live at the same address, have the same names and, somewhere out
there, Moriarty is waiting for them.
Steven Moffat says: "Conan Doyle's stories were never about frock
coats and gas light; they're about brilliant detection, dreadful
villains and blood-curdling crimes – and frankly, to hell with the
crinoline. Other detectives have cases, Sherlock Holmes has
adventures, and that's what matters.
Amethyst Deceiver
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 21:31:57 +0100, Amethyst Deceiver
><ne...@lindsayendell.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:59:09 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
>><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:56:48 +0100, Amethyst Deceiver
>>><ne...@lindsayendell.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 05 Apr 2010 12:29:13 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
>>>><ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 05 Apr 2010 07:22:01 GMT, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>Now, about this Moffat Sherlock Holmes, when's that on?
>>>>>
>>>>>It just started in the UK on Saturday evening.
>>>>
>>>>Damn, which channel?
>>>>I managed to miss Frost, too.
>>>
>>>It was on BBC1. It is repeated on Friday 9th at 21:00 on BBC3
>>>http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/programmes/schedules/2010/04/09
>>
>>Nonono, The Sherlock Holmes! Doctor Who was marvellous!
>
>Don't Panic!
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/tv/comingup/sherlock/
>
> Sherlock... Coming soon to BBC One.
Coming soon, that's what I like to see. It means there'll be enough of
a trail for it that I'll remember to set the PVR.
Amethyst Deceiver
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <a3gkr55l7102goap6...@4ax.com>
>Well piss, I can't find either one of those.
Doctor Who: Saturdays, BBC1 (and repeated during the week on different
BBC channels)
Sherlock Holmes: coming soon
Frost: Sunday and Monday just gone, on ITV. Will be repeated, I'm
sure.
Robin Bignall
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
Even as a child I felt that someone who knew the composition of the
earth in every field in the home counties, so that he could greet a
new prospect with "I see from your boots that you're a farmer from
Tring, sir" was somewhat unlikely.
Robin Bignall
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>In message <nqpor5d3puf6a1tog...@4ax.com>
> Amethyst Deceiver <ne...@lindsayendell.org.uk> wrote:
>> Doctor Who: Saturdays, BBC1 (and repeated during the week on different
>> BBC channels)
>
>Well yes, *everyone* knows that!
>
>*cough*
>
>> Sherlock Holmes: coming soon
>
>Ah, that's what I thought was being referred to as having been on
>Saturday morning, since the Doctor is on in the evening. Must have been
>a septic on the west cost referring to PDT morning or something.
>
>> Frost: Sunday and Monday just gone, on ITV. Will be repeated, I'm
>> sure.
>
>Found it, downloaded it. Haven't watched it. I am stuck with an 8 hour
>window for Comcast to come by tomorrow, so I will probably watch that
>and two eps of Waking the Dead I didn't see (the finale pair from the
>last series. Hope springs eternal a main character isn't killed off
>senselessly.
There's always the hope that if they do, the character will wake up in
a future episode.