A murder of crows, a pride of lions
Solomon Taibi
NUQ...@prodigy.com (Ronald Mccauley) wrote:
>I am searching for the literary term which describes such phrases as
>those above. Friends have suggested that they are "terms of venery," yet
>the unabridged fails to justify this usage of "venery."
Terms of "venery" is correct. It is also correct to call these
"venereal" adjectives. Yes, indeed! What dictionary are you
using? Try the OED.
--
S. Taibi
Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks
into spears: Let the weak say 'I am strong'. (Joel 3:10)
Ronald Mccauley
I am searching for the literary term which describes such phrases as
those above. Friends have suggested that they are "terms of venery," yet
the unabridged fails to justify this usage of "venery."
Assistance is greatly appreciated.
-
RONALD MCCAULEY NUQ...@prodigy.com
BobSkinn
I always understood that they were called "COLLECTIVE NOUNS".
Some of the more unusual ones (from a list of 60 of them I have to hand)
include:
a convocation of eagles
a siege of herons
a kindle of kittens
a bouquet of pheasants
a descent of woodpeckers
(See Insomniacs' Dictionary by Paul Hellwegg (1986))
Bob Skinner
Frank Cole
In article <4nlc0s$h...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> bobs...@aol.com "BobSkinn"
writes:
> I always understood that they were called "COLLECTIVE NOUNS".
> Some of the more unusual ones (from a list of 60 of them I have to hand)
> include:
>
> a convocation of eagles
> a siege of herons
> a kindle of kittens
> a bouquet of pheasants
> a descent of woodpeckers
<snip>
And:
a quantity of surveyers (for US readers: in UK we have `quantity surveyers'
for your `cost estimators'; so would that make it
an expense of cost estimators?)
a care of nurses
--
Frank Cole Email: fr...@poco.demon.co.uk
Nancy J. Gill
NUQ...@prodigy.com (Ronald Mccauley) wrote:
>I am searching for the literary term which describes such phrases as
>those above. Friends have suggested that they are "terms of venery," yet
>the unabridged fails to justify this usage of "venery."
They are terms of venery in that they originated as descriptions of
game, and gradually expanded to include domestic animals, etc., as
well.
venery —n. ARCHAIC. The act, art, or sport of hunting. [ME < OFr.
venerie < vener, to hunt < Lat. venari.]
A Collection of Animal Collectives
The English language boasts an abundance of names to describe groups
of things, particularly pairs or aggregations of animals. Some of
these words have fallen into comparative disuse, but many of them are
still in service, helping to enrich the vocabularies of those who like
their language to be precise, who tire of hearing a group referred to
as “a bunch of,” or who enjoy the sound of words that aren't
overworked.
bale of turtles
band of gorillas
bed of clams, oysters
bevy of quail, swans
brace of ducks
brood of chicks
cast of hawks
cete of badgers
charm of goldfinches
cloud of gnats
clowder of cats
clutch of chicks
clutter of cats
colony of ants
congregation of plovers
covey of quail, partridge
crash of rhinoceri
cry of hounds
down of hares
drift of swine
drove of cattle, sheep
exaltation of larks
flight of birds
flock of sheep, geese
gaggle of geese
gam of whales
gang of elks
grist of bees
herd of elephants
horde of gnats
husk of hares
kindle or kendle of kittens
knot of toads
leap of leopards
leash of greyhounds, foxes
litter of pigs
mob of kangaroos
murder of crows
muster of peacocks
mute of hounds
nest of vipers
nest, nide of pheasants
pack of hounds, wolves
pair of horses
pod of whales, seals
pride of lions
school of fish
sedge or siege of cranes
shoal of fish, pilchards
skein of geese
skulk of foxes
sleuth of bears
sounder of boars, swine
span of mules
spring of teals
swarm of bees
team of ducks, horses
tribe or trip of goats
troop of kangaroos, monkeys
volery of birds
watch of nightingales
wing of plovers
yoke of oxen
The World Almanac
Nancy J. Gill, Quinquagenarian
(njg...@ix.netcom.com)
http://www.netcom.com/~njgill/
There are three classes of elderly women; first, that dear old soul;
second, that old woman; third, that old witch.
Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1834), English poet
Nancy J. Gill
ta...@inil.com (Solomon Taibi) wrote:
>Terms of "venery" is correct. It is also correct to call these
>"venereal" adjectives. Yes, indeed! What dictionary are you
Indeed, it is NOT correct to call them venereal adjectives--firstly,
they are nouns; secondly, they stem from an entirely different root:
venery —n. ARCHAIC. The act, art, or sport of hunting. [ME < OFr.
venerie <vener, to hunt < Lat. venari.]
venereal —adj. 1. Of or pertaining to sexual intercourse. 2. a.
Transmitted by sexual intercourse. b. Of or pertaining to venereal
disease. 3. Of or pertaining to the genitals. [ME venerealle < Lat.
venereus < Venus, Venus, love.]
Alasdair Baxter
In article <4nm492$q...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
njg...@ix.netcom.com "Nancy J. Gill" writes:
" NUQ...@prodigy.com (Ronald Mccauley) wrote:
"
" >I am searching for the literary term which describes such phrases as
" >those above. Friends have suggested that they are "terms of venery," yet
" >the unabridged fails to justify this usage of "venery."
"
" They are terms of venery in that they originated as descriptions of
" game, and gradually expanded to include domestic animals, etc., as
" well.
"
" venery n. ARCHAIC. The act, art, or sport of hunting. [ME < OFr.
" venerie < vener, to hunt < Lat. venari.]
"
" A Collection of Animal Collectives
"
" The English language boasts an abundance of names to describe groups
" of things, particularly pairs or aggregations of animals. Some of
" these words have fallen into comparative disuse, but many of them are
" still in service, helping to enrich the vocabularies of those who like
" their language to be precise, who tire of hearing a group referred to
" as a bunch of, or who enjoy the sound of words that aren't
" overworked.
" bale of turtles
" band of gorillas
" bed of clams, oysters
" bevy of quail, swans
" brace of ducks
Is it not a puddle or puddling of ducks?
" brood of chicks
" cast of hawks
" cete of badgers
" charm of goldfinches
" cloud of gnats
" clowder of cats
" clutch of chicks
" clutter of cats
" colony of ants
" congregation of plovers
" covey of quail, partridge
" crash of rhinoceri
" cry of hounds
Is it not a pack of hounds?
" down of hares
" drift of swine
" drove of cattle, sheep
Is it not a herd of cattle?
" exaltation of larks
" flight of birds
" flock of sheep, geese
" gaggle of geese
" gam of whales
" gang of elks
" grist of bees
Is it not a swarm of bees?
" Nancy J. Gill, Quinquagenarian
" (njg...@ix.netcom.com)
" http://www.netcom.com/~njgill/
"
" There are three classes of elderly women; first, that dear old soul;
" second, that old woman; third, that old witch.
" Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1834), English poet
"
"
--
Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel: +44 115 970 5100; Fax: +44 115 9423263.
"It's not what you say that matters but how you say it.
It's not what you do that matters but how you do it".
Jeff Drabble
Njg...@ix.netcom.com (Nancy J. Gill) wrote:
>A Collection of Animal Collectives
>bale of turtles
>band of gorillas
>bed of clams, oysters
>bevy of quail, swans
and many more . . . ..
Great list - I've taken a hard copy - here are a few
you missed.
covey of partridges
charm of goldfinches
cete of badgers
snipe of wisps
I am particularly interested to discover if there is
a collective noun for jaguars in particular, not cats
or lions - any help?
Jeff Drabble
Rich Jordan
NUQ...@prodigy.com (Ronald Mccauley) queries:
> I am searching for the literary term which describes such phrases as
> those above. Friends have suggested that they are "terms of venery,"
> yet the unabridged fails to justify this usage of "venery."
>
My Webster's II New Riverside Universal (Property of US Government)
lists as second definition:
venery n. [ME < OFr. venerie < vener, to hunt < Lat. venari.] Archaic.
The act, art or sport of hunting.
This info may be present somewhere in a FAQ of answers.
R!ch
rich_...@atlmug.org
--Atlanta: We'll be ready for the '96 Olympics in '98.
Matthew Rabuzzi
NUQ...@prodigy.com (Ronald Mccauley) wrote:
: I am searching for the literary term which describes such phrases as
: those above. Friends have suggested that they are "terms of venery," yet
: the unabridged fails to justify this usage of "venery."
"Venery" comes from IndoEuropean "desire/pursue/hunt", whence
win, wish, venison, venerate, venial (but not venal), Venus, venereal,
Venice, ?Venezuela, venom.
The latter was used in Roman philtres (love potions) and magic charms
to win what the heart desired; later "venom" was pejorated to mean
only poisonous potions. Note the "Venice glass" that was supposed
to shatter if poison was poured into it.
"Cynegetic" meaning "pertaining to the hunt" may related either to
Cynthos, the island where the Greek goddess of the hunt,
Artemis (Cynthia), was born; or to Greek "kynos=dog + hegeomai=to lead".
Beasts of chase: fallow deer (buck, doe), roedeer, fox, marten.
Beasts of venery: red deer (hart, hind), boar, wolf, hare.
Beasts of warren: hare or coney (hunted in its warren or cuniculus only).
Half of this article is copied from James Lipton's _An Exaltation of Larks_,
with his source being primarily a book of hunting etiquette from 1486.
Most of the remainder was concocted by me,
Matthew Rabuzzi <rab...@patch.tandem.com>,
with some additions of terms and etymological facts by
<an...@treebranch.com>
Mark Odegard <mlo...@nyc.pipeline.com>
Daan Sandee <san...@think.com>
Proper Collective Terms of the Hunt and the Chase:
Cynegetic or Venereal Terms Codified in the Fifteenth Century
(EXCEPT those marked with an *ASTERISK*)
vortex of anteaters *
bound of antelope *
cete of badgers
sleuth of bears
sloth of bears
industry of beavers *
singular of boars [French sanglier]
gang of elk
business of ferrets
earth of foxes
leash of foxes
skulk of foxes
trip of goats
husk of hares
richness of martens
labor of moles
pigs: see hogs, swine
barbican of porcupines *
coterie of prairie dogs
pounce of puma *
nest of rabbits
slither of serpents *
inspissation of skunks * (or a mephitis *, or a pew *, or a rank *)
dray of squirrels
sounder of swine
pack of wolves
route of wolves
pace of asses
drove of cattle
clowder of cats [clutter]
peep of chickens
rag of colts
cowardice of curs (byte of dogs *, barque of Doges *)
recalcitrance of donkeys *
buttload of gerbils *
brood of hens
drift of hogs
passel of hogs [parcel]
harras of horses
kindle of kittens
scamper of mice *
barren of mules
span of mules
team of mules
yoke of oxen
string of ponies
flock of sheep
shrewdness of apes
armada of armadillos *
cask of armadillos (with apologies to Edgar Allan Poe)*
gaze of basilisks *
obstinacy of buffalo
lamasery of camelids *
caravanserai of camels * (or a pack *)
chromosome of chameleons *
bask of crocodiles
thunder of dinosaurs *
smoke of dragons *
herd of elephants
ponder of elephants *
tower of giraffe
implausibility of gnus *
band of gorillas
sesquipedalian of hippopotamuses *
cachinnation of hyenas *
gleam of jaguars *
mob of kangaroos
troop of kangaroos
leap of leopards
pride of lions
troop of monkeys
dolor of orangutans *
conflagration of phoenix *
crash of rhinoceroses
stealth of tigers *
scuttle of trilobites * [motion a la T S Eliot's Prufrock; they're all coal now; been scuttled by evolutn]
pucellage of unicorns *
weft of yaks *
moire of zebras *
blister of barnacles * (or peer group *)
school of fish [shoal]
army of frogs, or rain of frogs [genus Rana] *
smack of jellyfish (or a comb *)
octavo of octopi *
bed of oysters
play of porpoises *
slip of salamanders * (or a hearth *, or a lick *; and a congress of newts *)
pod of seals
frenzy of sharks *
seine of shrimp *
emulsion of snails * (or a sufficiency [snail=symbol of self_sufficiency] *)
murk of squid *
deviltry of stingrays *
knot of toads
hover of trout
bale of turtles
gam of whales
pod of whales
chitter of bats * (or a haunt *; and a battening of vampires *)
dissimulation of birds
gulp of cormorants *
sedge of cranes [siege, as in siege engines/cranes; infl. by sedge grasses?]
murder of crows
dule of doves [dule = French "deuil" = mourning/pitying]
pitying of doves
charm of finches
flush of flamingos *
gaggle of geese on water or land
skein of geese in flight
cast of hawks
siege of herons
vibrato of hummingbirds *
party of jays
exaltation of larks
tidings of magpies
roster of ostriches *
parliament of owls
company of parrots
covey of partridges
ostentation of peacocks
colony of penguins
bouquet of pheasant
nide of pheasant
nye of pheasant
congregation of plovers
tie of rail *
unkindness of ravens
building of rooks
walk of snipe
murmuration of starlings
mustering of storks
wedge of swans
rafter of turkeys
descent of woodpeckers
colony of ants
apiary of bees
grist of bees
hive of bees
skep of bees
swarm of bees
bombilation of bumblebees *
festoon of butterflies *
pavilion of butterflies *
army of caterpillars
scatter of cockroaches *
crepitation of crickets *
book of dragonflies * ["libellule" = "little book"]
brool of dragonflies *
cloud of gnats
plague of locusts
biting of mosquitoes *
trochisk of pillbugs
lashing of scorpions *
shuttle of spiders *
can of worms
STANDARD COLLECTIVE TERMS (MORE OR LESS CODIFIED)
a stack of airplanes (over an airport) *
a host of angels
a slate of candidates
a clutch of eggs
a comedy of errors *, a sea of troubles * (and every nth phrase in Shakespeare)
a ship of fools *
a pantheon of gods *, and a dusk of idols * (Nietzsche)
an embarrassment of riches *
a coven of witches
THE REMAINING COLLECTIVE TERMS ARE *NOT* CODIFIED
*EXCEPT* THOSE MARKED WITH AN *ASTERISK*
(I.E., OPPOSITE SCHEME FROM PRECEDING).
RELIGION
an annoyance of Hare Krishnas and a month of Moonies
a kilderkin of People's Temple followers
a watt of Cambodian Buddhists
an ohm of Tibetan Buddhists
a lapse of antinomians
an infinity of cantors
a potpourri of Catholics
a synod of fetishists
a collation of monks
a tract of Mormons
a reboation of muezzins
a kingdom of Jehovah's Witnesses
a commination of preachers
a mass of priests
an ark of rabbis
a spliff of Rastafarians
a hide of Sikhs
a barsom of Zoroastrians
an unction of undertakers (a large group is an extreme unction)
MEDICINE
a doctrine of doctors *
a hive of allergists (and a rash of dermatologists)
a conspiracy of anesthesiologists (or a whiff)
a colony of bacteriologists (and a host of epidemiologists)
a flutter of cardiologists
a corps of coroners (and a decade of exhumation coroners)
a byte of dentists (and a brace of orthodontists)
a smear of gynecologists (or a bushel)
a spread of obstetricians
a coagulation of hematologists
a concentration of neurologists
a dose of pharmacists
a carat of nurses
a pile of proctologists (or a ream)
a gourd of psychiatrists (or a council)
a fathom of psychologists
a series of radiologists
a slice of surgeons (or a suture)
a void of urologists (or a flush or a paean)
an omer of oncologists
a herd of otologists
a beaker of rhinologists (or a snifter)
a box of laryngologists (or a cord)
a phalanx of pharyngologists
a denier of anorexics (or a minim)
an inning of bulimics (followed by a chukker)
a kilocalorie of dieters
a brood of depressives
a jumble of dyslexics
a week of myasthenics
a mho of nymphomaniacs
a whatchamacallit of Alzheimers patients
a diopter of Kevorkian patients
a hertz of hypochondriacs (or an acre or a coffle)
a dyne of critical ICU patients
a stable of outpatients (or a well or a curie)
PROFESSIONS
an accumulation of accountants
a caste of actors
a farrago of airline ticket agents
a bundle of bankers
a drove of cabdrivers (or a stere)
a reel of cinematographers
a yoke of comedians
a span of civil engineers
a union of database engineers (or a column)
a dram of hardware engineers
a compilation of software engineers
a slew of exterminators
a millibar of flight attendants
a conglomerate of geologists (or a formation; and a jar of seismologists)
a conjunction of grammarians (or a parsec)
a palimpsest of historians
a mutule of insurance agents
a reredos of interior decorators
a ring of jewelers (or a band or a joule)
a sentence of judges * (or a scruple)
an eloquence of lawyers * (and a proof of prosecutors)
a roentgen of landlords
a cubit of Lego manufacturers
a combination of locksmiths
an orrery of logicians
a magnum of Mafiosi
a suit of mailmen
a amalgam of metallurgists
a degree of meteorologists
a galaxy of milkmen
a bit of miners (or a coalescence)
a retable of moderators
a pile of nuclear engineers
a field of physicists (or a wave or a nucleus)
a phalange of pickpockets
a baud of pornographers
a riyal of realtors
a scoop of reporters (and a pan of critics)
a swell of sailors (or a deck of sailors; and a strut of pilots)
a sample of door-to-door salesmen
a shilling of TV pitchmen
a lot of used-car salesmen
a furlong of sheepshearers
a mole of spies
a quotient of statisticians
a hoot of strippers (or a chest)
a descent of submariners (or a gill)
a patience of schoolteachers (in prior years, a rod)
a block of writers
a clamber of assistant professors
a tenure of associate professors
an entrenchment of full professors
an ex cathedra of emeritus professors
THE ARTS
a gamut of musicians
a pound of drummers, a meter of percussionists, and a score of pianists
a cabal of knitters, a patchwork of quilters, a surge of seamstresses, and
a labyrinth of weavers
a palette of painters
a sthene of photographers
a splinter group of woodcarvers, a kerf of carvers, and a ceil of sculptors
SPORTS
a cog of cyclists
a tumbler of gymnasts
a bowl of keglers (or a keg of bowlers)
a row of oarsmen
a fleet of runners
a rad of skateboarders
a gradient of skiers
a raft of swimmers
MISCELLANY
a spot of birdwatchers (or a volitation)
a rookery of chess prodigies
a crucible of crossword puzzlers
a symposium of oenophiles
a stampede of philatelists
a fringe group of balding men
an erg of Bedouins
a dish of gossips
a yard of Harvardians
a peck of lovers (or a spoon, or a spat, or a soup: consomme!)
a liter of men
a rhumb of pirates (and a board-foot of pegleg pirates)
a cistern of Sapphos, a demijohn of transsexuals, a share of urnings
a googol of infants
a challenge of children
a doze of parents
a clutch of teddy bears
Several Oxford dons strolling along the Commons had to step around
five quite conspicuous prostitutes. The quickest of the dons remarked,
"A jam of tarts." The second, a music professor, riposted,
"No, a flourish of strumpets." Two English profs vied with each other with,
"An essay of Trollope's" and "An anthology of pros." The two geologists said,
"A hoard of jades" and "A smelting of whores".
Finally, the nearby groundskeepers chimed in with
"A hectare of hetaera" and "A quincunx of courtesans!"
.............................................................
Laughing at death: snigger mortis
Matthew Rabuzzi
Matthew Rabuzzi
Nancy J. Gill <Njg...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
: volery of birds
This should be "volary".
"Volar" = of flight; or of the palms of the hands (cf. "thenar").
To the original poster: the a.u.e FAQ cites three books entirely devoted
to collective names, which you should be able to find in your local library.
Ronald Mccauley
Thank you all for your responses--particularly the extraordinary lists of
examples, many of which were unknown to me.
BTW, I followed Solomon Taibi's sage advice and consulted the OED. The
only usage therein not found in Webster's Universal Unabridged was "a
compound in which hounds are maintained."
It is curious, indeed, that while most are of the opinion that these
collectives are properly referred as "terms of venery," I can find no
reference work to validate this usage. Perhaps we are left in the
poaition of the poet about whom Eliot wrote in "Shakespeare and the
Stoicism of Seneca" :
"The poet must become more and more comprehensive, more allusive, more
indirect, in order to force, to dislocate if necessary, language into its
meaning."
m w grossmann
Njg...@ix.netcom.com (Nancy J. Gill) scribbled something like:
>The English language boasts an abundance of names to describe groups
>of things, particularly pairs or aggregations of animals. Some of
>these words have fallen into comparative disuse, but many of them are
>still in service, helping to enrich the vocabularies of those who like
>their language to be precise, who tire of hearing a group referred to
>as “a bunch of,” or who enjoy the sound of words that aren't
>overworked.
Allow me to comment:
>bed of clams, oysters
Still used, reversed (oyster bed, clam bed).
>brood of chicks
Still used generically for birds with (generally) more than three
concurrent offspring.
>clowder of cats
>clutter of cats
One is most likely a corruption of the other.
>colony of ants
Still in common use; more common reversed (An ant colony)
>flock of sheep, geese
Common usage: any species of bird.
>herd of elephants
Common usage, more often reversed.
>litter of pigs
Common usage.
>pack of hounds, wolves
Common usage.
>pride of lions
Well known, often used.
>school of fish
Common usage.
>swarm of bees
Common usage.
while I am an English purist, there is something to be said for being
understood, and there are few who would understand a "murder of crows"
as anything other than avicide.
Cheers-
m w grossmann
Charles Brenner
m w grossmann (sel...@inch.com) wrote:
: Njg...@ix.netcom.com (Nancy J. Gill) scribbled something like:
: >The English language boasts an abundance of names to describe groups
My own contribution, whenever venery comes up:
A pack (or carton) of camels.
Matthew Rabuzzi
Nancy J. Gill <Njg...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
: ta...@inil.com (Solomon Taibi) wrote:
: > Terms of "venery" is correct. It is also correct to call these
: > "venereal" adjectives. Yes, indeed! What dictionary are you
:
: Indeed, it is NOT correct to call them venereal adjectives--firstly,
: they are nouns; secondly, they stem from an entirely different root:
:
: venery —n. ARCHAIC. The act, art, or sport of hunting. [ME < OFr.
: venerie <vener, to hunt < Lat. venari.]
:
: venereal —adj. 1. Of or pertaining to sexual intercourse. 2. a.
: Transmitted by sexual intercourse. b. Of or pertaining to venereal
: disease. 3. Of or pertaining to the genitals. [ME venerealle < Lat.
: venereus < Venus, Venus, love.]
Bah. Your new online dictionary is too facile and superficial.
Pursuit as the hunt and pursuit as desire/love both spring from the
IE base *wen-, whence "win" and "venison" and "Venus" and "vener{y|eal}"
and all the others in my long previous post.
Joseph Chacko
> brace of ducks
> yoke of oxen
It strikes me that these are singular in that they describe specifically
a pair of the animals in question, whereas all the others described,
ahem, 'whole bunches' of animals.
Am I right?
Also, Has anyone heard the term 'parliament of crows'?
--
Psst
David Howse
On Tue, 21 May 96 08:23:33 GMT, Joseph Chacko <j...@sheril.demon.co.uk>
said:
>Also, Has anyone heard the term 'parliament of crows'?
I've heard of a parliament of _owls_, but not of crows.
>--
>Psst
Geoff Butler
In article <832667...@sheril.demon.co.uk>
j...@sheril.demon.co.uk "Joseph Chacko" writes:
> Also, Has anyone heard the term 'parliament of crows'?
Nope, parliaments are obviously of owls. Owls are known for their
wisdom, hence the ... er, I wonder why, exactly.
> Psst
Yes?
Geoff Butler
Nancy J. Gill
rab...@patch.tandem.com (Matthew Rabuzzi) wrote:
>Bah. Your new online dictionary is too facile and superficial.
>Pursuit as the hunt and pursuit as desire/love both spring from the
>IE base *wen-, whence "win" and "venison" and "Venus" and "vener{y|eal}"
>and all the others in my long previous post.
“But "glory' doesn't mean "a nice knockdown argument,'” Alice
objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone,
“it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so
many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's
all.”
Lewis Carroll [Charles Lutwidge Dodgson] 1832-1898
Through the Looking-Glass [1872], ch. 6
Mark Odegard
David...@anu.edu.au (David Howse), wrote:
>On Tue, 21 May 96 08:23:33 GMT, Joseph Chacko <j...@sheril.demon.co.uk>
>said:
>>Also, Has anyone heard the term 'parliament of crows'?
>I've heard of a parliament of _owls_, but not of crows.
Has anyone here besides myself ever read Chaucer's
Parliament of Fowls?
I can't handle the Middle English spelling from memory;
something like Parlement of Foweles.
--
Mark Odegard. Ode...@ptel.net
Matthew Rabuzzi
Joseph Chacko <j...@sheril.demon.co.uk> writes:
: Has anyone heard the term 'parliament of crows'?
You're three letters off. It's a parliament of owls.
.....................................................
Parliament of whores: putting a rider on a Bill
Matthew Rabuzzi
Joseph Chacko
In article <832667...@sheril.demon.co.uk> I wrote:
>
> Also, Has anyone heard the term 'parliament of crows'?
>
Sorry, someone has posted that it is a parliament of owls. Crows and
owls are very similar, though.
--
Psst
James Eason
Matthew Rabuzzi wrote:
>
> NUQ...@prodigy.com (Ronald Mccauley) wrote:
> : I am searching for the literary term which describes such phrases as
> : those above. Friends have suggested that they are "terms of venery," yet
> : the unabridged fails to justify this usage of "venery."
>
> "Venery" comes from IndoEuropean "desire/pursue/hunt", whence
> win, wish, venison, venerate, venial (but not venal), Venus, venereal,
> Venice, ?Venezuela, venom.
> The latter was used in Roman philtres (love potions) and magic charms
> to win what the heart desired; later "venom" was pejorated to mean
> only poisonous potions. Note the "Venice glass" that was supposed
> to shatter if poison was poured into it.
>
Heneti, and has nothing to do with "venery" etc. (The form "Henetia"
occurs from time to time in classical writing.) "Venezuela" comes
from Venice (from the custom of the indigenous inhabitants of floating
their villages on lakes), so ditto. Poison is alleged to break
Venetian glass because it is of such purity and delicacy. (Pliny
reports the same phenomenon in glass from somewhere in the classical
world (not Venice) in his day; it is a common conceit.)
"Terms of venery" seems to me acceptable. If you want a complete and
very long-winded run-down on hunting terms, I suggest a perusal of
Gottfried's "Tristan". A good translation will provide you with ample
material to amaze and delight your friends.
Yours servant,
James
obscurity
In article <4o28f5$c...@gazette.loc3.tandem.com>, Matthew Rabuzzi wrote:
> Joseph Chacko <j...@sheril.demon.co.uk> writes:
> : Has anyone heard the term 'parliament of crows'?
> You're three letters off. It's a parliament of owls.
For what it's worth, seeing as everyone else seems to have said "No."
(although in far more words...), I feel compelled to answer :
"Yes, I have heard of the term 'parliament of crows'."
--
Obscurity. Selling ruin to the ruined.
"Only the great masters of style ever succeed in being obscure." - Oscar Wilde.
Chris Malcolm
Sigh. Geoffrey Chaucer, 1340?-1400, "The Parlement of Foulys", in modern
English, "The Parliament of Fowls". In the Golden Age, long ago, in
Never-Never Land, children enjoyed reading this at school, and knew from
personal observation that few birds are as dissimilar as crows and owls.
--
Chris Malcolm c...@uk.ac.ed.aifh +44 (0)131 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
"The mind reigns, but does not govern" Paul Valery
Myles Paulson
In article <832667...@sheril.demon.co.uk>, Joseph Chacko (j...@sheril.demon.co.uk) writes:
>In article <4nm492$q...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
> njg...@ix.netcom.com "Nancy J. Gill" writes:
>[Among many other collective nouns, these two]
>> brace of ducks
>> yoke of oxen
>
>It strikes me that these are singular in that they describe specifically
>a pair of the animals in question, whereas all the others described,
>ahem, 'whole bunches' of animals.
>
>Am I right?
>
>
>Psst
No, and I think if you said that in real life, people would begin
looking at their watches and realizing that they had engagements
elsewhere. Considering that English deems "you" as not worthy of a
plural, there is an awful lot of precious group names for animals.
However, let me say this. Australians pick up Americanisms very
quickly. One that has *never* taken off here in Australia, despite
its constant use in sitcoms etc, is the "whole bunch of stuff"
expression. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but to me "bunch" properly
refers to spinach, and the like, and not indiscriminately to any
agglomeration of similar matter, as Americans seem to think. Phrases
such as "group of people", "pile of letters", "a lot of homework",
may seem Victorian to some, but I can assure you that a whole
bunch of us guys still prefer to talk just like Jane Austen over
these parts.
--
Myles Paulson <xexr...@wackydoo.dialix.oz.au>
Markus Laker
xexr...@wackydoo.DIALix.oz.au (Myles Paulson) wrote:
> Phrases
> such as "group of people", "pile of letters", "a lot of homework",
> may seem Victorian to some, but I can assure you that a whole
> bunch of us guys still prefer to talk just like Jane Austen over
> these parts.
A lot? Victorian? I was taught in the 1970s that 'a lot' referred
literally to a quantity of goods being sold at auction, and was to be
avoided. 'Many' or 'much' were preferred. I *still* feel like a naughty
schoolboy when I use 'a lot' on a.u.e, waiting for a big frightening Latin
teacher to scribble on my postings in red ink.
Now *that's* Victorian.
--
Markus Laker.
Joseph Chacko
In article <8...@wackydoo.DIALix.oz.au> xexr...@wackydoo.DIALix.oz.au writes:
>
> Considering that English deems "you" as not worthy of a
> plural, there is an awful lot of precious group names for animals.
What exactly is you saying then?
--
Psst
Steve MacGregor
Jene tajpis lastatempe Markus Laker:
{ A lot? Victorian? I was taught in the 1970s that 'a lot' referred
{ literally to a quantity of goods being sold at auction, and was to be
{ avoided.
Quite correct; one should properly say instead, "a heap", or "a raft".
--
____ "Go: It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye!"
(_) /: ,/
/___/ (_) Steve MacGregor, Phoenix, AZ
just della
>In article <832667...@sheril.demon.co.uk>, Joseph Chacko (j...@sheril.demon.co.uk) writes:
>>In article <4nm492$q...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
>> njg...@ix.netcom.com "Nancy J. Gill" writes:
>>[Among many other collective nouns, these two]
>>> brace of ducks
>>> yoke of oxen
>>
>>It strikes me that these are singular in that they describe specifically
>>a pair of the animals in question, whereas all the others described,
>>ahem, 'whole bunches' of animals.
>>
>>Am I right?
>>
>>Also, Has anyone heard the term 'parliament of crows'?
Yes, I have. Along with an exaltation of larks, a pod of wbales,
pride of lions, and mules come in some fascinating word too. Wish
I'd kept that t-shirt with all these listings. I always thought
that a group of ducks on the ground should be a "waddling" of ducks,
instead of a herd.
Did I miss a listing of all animal categories? I'd love to have it.
__________________________________________
"He who has never envied the vegetable has
missed the human drama." --E.M. Cioran
--------...@ix.netcom.com-----------
David Monteith-Hodge
In article <31c9856f...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, just della (de...@ix.netcom.com) writes:
>
>>In article <832667...@sheril.demon.co.uk>, Joseph Chacko (j...@sheril.demon.co.uk) writes:
>>>In article <4nm492$q...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
>>> njg...@ix.netcom.com "Nancy J. Gill" writes:
>>>[Among many other collective nouns, these two]
>>>> brace of ducks
>>>> yoke of oxen
>>>
>>>It strikes me that these are singular in that they describe specifically
>>>a pair of the animals in question, whereas all the others described,
>>>ahem, 'whole bunches' of animals.
>>>
>>>Am I right?
>>>
>>>Also, Has anyone heard the term 'parliament of crows'?
No, it's surely a 'parliament of rooks', but a 'murder of crows'?
A programming team I worked with once sought a word to describe a collection of
underskilled, besuited supervisors.
We cracked it......A Micturition of Middle Managers!
Regards,
David
--
David Monteith-Hodge
Veni translation -> : I came,
Vidi : I saw,
Validi : I validated, corrected, fixed,
: fudged, bodged, kludged, made work etc.
Programmers Motto (c)1994 David Monteith-Hodge and Mike Wilding.