le beurre, ---- l'argent du beurre et le cul de la crémière

[henh...@gmail.com]

i'm just trying to understand the literal meaning.

1. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire de la crémière

--------- i can keep the Butter, OR
if i sold it (to the milkmaid), i'd have Money, and the milkmaid would smile (at me)
------- because she can resell it for Profit


2. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le cul de la crémière (vulgar)
3. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et les fesses de la crémière (informal)


--------- i can keep the Butter, OR
if i sold it (to the milkmaid), i'd have Money, and the milkmaid would smile (at me) and i can Pinch her Butt ????

[Hibou]

Le 03/11/2022 à 02:05, henh...@gmail.com a écrit :
>
> i'm just trying to understand the literal meaning.
>
> 1. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire de la crémière

The expression is, « Vouloir le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire
de la crémière ».

So the literal meaning is "To want the butter, the money for the butter,
and the milkmaid's smile."

It's to want everything - to have one's cake and eat it.

'... que signifie cette expression française ?' -
<https://www.orthographiq.com/blog/vouloir-le-beurre-et-largent-du-beurre-que-signifie-cette-expression-francaise>

> --------- i can keep the Butter, OR
> if i sold it (to the milkmaid), i'd have Money, and the milkmaid would smile (at me)
> ------- because she can resell it for Profit

I think it more likely that if you want the butter and the money, the
milkmaid selling the butter is unlikely to smile at you - so to want all
three is beyond unreasonable.

> 2. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le cul de la crémière (vulgar)
> 3. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et les fesses de la crémière (informal)
>
> --------- i can keep the Butter, OR
> if i sold it (to the milkmaid), i'd have Money, and the milkmaid would smile (at me) and i can Pinch her Butt ????

Why would you want to pinch her barrel?

[occam]

On 03/11/2022 07:24, Hibou wrote:


<snip>

>
> The expression is, « Vouloir le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire
> de la crémière ».
>
> So the literal meaning is "To want the butter, the money for the butter,
> and the milkmaid's smile."
>
> It's to want everything - to have one's cake and eat it.
>

That's the French language in a nutshell.

English: "To have one's cake and eat it" (7 words, 29 characters)

French: « Vouloir le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire de la
crémière » (12 words, 65 characters)

(For the pedants, the character count includes the space character.)

[Hibou]

Well, yes, though I think the milkmaid is usually omitted. She's the
icing on the cake, so to speak.

[Peter Moylan]

On 03/11/22 13:05, henh...@gmail.com wrote:

> i'm just trying to understand the literal meaning.
>
> 1. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire de la crémière

The hazards of reading too quickly. I first read that last one as the
mouse in the cream-jug.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Bebercito]

Le jeudi 3 novembre 2022 à 08:37:51 UTC+1, occam a écrit :
> On 03/11/2022 07:24, Hibou wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
> >
> > The expression is, « Vouloir le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire
> > de la crémière ».
> >
> > So the literal meaning is "To want the butter, the money for the butter,
> > and the milkmaid's smile."
> >
> > It's to want everything - to have one's cake and eat it.
> >
> That's the French language in a nutshell.
>
> English: "To have one's cake and eat it" (7 words, 29 characters)

Doesn't the phrase need to be complemented with e.g. "_You
can't_ have one's cake and eat it" to express the idea? (That's
two more words, i.e. nine.)

>
> French: « Vouloir le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire de la
> crémière » (12 words, 65 characters)

Even 13 words arguably, as the <l'> before "argent" is a determiner
and a word in its own right. But the most common version by far is
just "Vouloir le beurre et l'argent du beurre", which results in fewer
words (7 or 8) than in its complete English counterpart - but granted,
the character count is still much higher.

[Bebercito]

Le jeudi 3 novembre 2022 à 16:29:00 UTC+1, Bebercito a écrit :
> Le jeudi 3 novembre 2022 à 08:37:51 UTC+1, occam a écrit :
> > On 03/11/2022 07:24, Hibou wrote:
> >
> >
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > The expression is, « Vouloir le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire
> > > de la crémière ».
> > >
> > > So the literal meaning is "To want the butter, the money for the butter,
> > > and the milkmaid's smile."
> > >
> > > It's to want everything - to have one's cake and eat it.
> > >
> > That's the French language in a nutshell.
> >
> > English: "To have one's cake and eat it" (7 words, 29 characters)
> Doesn't the phrase need to be complemented with e.g. "_You
> can't_ have one's cake

"your cake", of course.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 3:37:51 AM UTC-4, occam wrote:

> English: "To have one's cake and eat it" (7 words, 29 characters)

We say "... and eat it, too," so that the sentence doesn't end with
a downer, but on a stressed syllable.

[henh...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 11:24:37 PM UTC-7, Hibou wrote:
> Le 03/11/2022 à 02:05, henh...@gmail.com a écrit :
> >
> > i'm just trying to understand the literal meaning.
> >
> > 1. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire de la crémière
> The expression is, « Vouloir le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire
> de la crémière ».
>
> So the literal meaning is "To want the butter, the money for the butter,
> and the milkmaid's smile."
>
> It's to want everything - to have one's cake and eat it.
>
> '... que signifie cette expression française ?' -
> <https://www.orthographiq.com/blog/vouloir-le-beurre-et-largent-du-beurre-que-signifie-cette-expression-francaise>

thanks !


Where does the French expression “Want butter and butter money” come from?
‍
Butter has long been considered a luxury item reserved for the wealthy. The poor, on the other hand, had to make do with lard (melted pork fat) for cooking. Butter has thus become in many expressions the symbol of money ("to make your own butter"), of prosperity ("to put butter in the spinach"), of profit, etc.

We can find the expression “to have the butter and the money from the butter”, or even the negative form “one cannot have the butter and the money from the butter”. This formula comes from peasant common sense and from the very principle of trade. Indeed, for a person to derive only gains from an exchange, the person opposite must only derive losses. But to imagine someone voluntarily making an exchange at a loss is absurd.

Moreover, there are variants to this expression, to be handled with care depending on the context. Thus, one can "want the butter, the money for the butter and the smile of the creamer" or even "want the butter, the money for the butter and the ass of the creamer", a much more vulgar version than its original!

‍

THE INFORMATION TO REMEMBER -- This expression seems to date from the end of the 19th century, and its use became popular throughout the 20th century. <<<---------------- ok, so waht was the Counterpart saying before then ???




-------------------- makes sense...

"You can't have your cake and eat it (too)." --- Did this saying exist at Shakespeare's time ?

[Hibou]

Le 03/11/2022 à 18:35, henh...@gmail.com a écrit :
>
> "You can't have your cake and eat it (too)." --- Did this saying exist at Shakespeare's time ?

Yes.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_can%27t_have_your_cake_and_eat_it>

[CDB]

Interesting
>
list. It looks as though the Bulgars may have done
something to deserve their reputation.

[Quinn C]

* Peter Moylan:

> On 03/11/22 13:05, henh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> i'm just trying to understand the literal meaning.
>>
>> 1. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire de la crémière
>
> The hazards of reading too quickly. I first read that last one as the
> mouse in the cream-jug.

<mom-joke>
What did the French mouse say when she took a photo of her children?
</>

--
We say, 'If any lady or gentleman shall buy this article _____ shall
have it for five dollars.' The blank may be filled with he, she, it,
or they; or in any other manner; and yet the form of the expression
will be too vulgar to be uttered. -- Wkly Jrnl of Commerce (1839)

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

Also, much clearer in the Kate and Edith case.

--
There is, at a women's college, always some emancipating
encouragement for those with masculine tastes for such things
as mathematics, philosophy, and friendship.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.15

[Bebercito]

Le vendredi 4 novembre 2022 à 17:25:54 UTC+1, Quinn C a écrit :
> * Peter Moylan:
> > On 03/11/22 13:05, henh...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> i'm just trying to understand the literal meaning.
> >>
> >> 1. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire de la crémière
> >
> > The hazards of reading too quickly. I first read that last one as the
> > mouse in the cream-jug.
> <mom-joke>
> What did the French mouse say when she took a photo of her children?

"Souris, sot" ?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2022-11-04 16:39:03 +0000, Bebercito said:

> Le vendredi 4 novembre 2022 à 17:25:54 UTC+1, Quinn C a écrit :
>> * Peter Moylan:
>>> On 03/11/22 13:05, henh...@gmail.com wrote:> >> >> i'm just trying to
>>> understand the literal meaning.> >>> >> 1. le beurre, l'argent du
>>> beurre et le sourire de la crémière> >> > The hazards of reading too
>>> quickly. I first read that last one as the> > mouse in the cream-jug.
>> <mom-joke>> What did the French mouse say when she took a photo of her
>> children?
>
> "Souris, sot" ?

You must be aware of the current fuss over whether a right-wing deputy
yesterday said to a black deputy in the National Assembly:

"Qu'ils retournent en Afrique !"

which would be offensive, but not actionable, in relation to the
survivors of a shipwreck in the Mediterranean, or

"Qu'il retourne en Afrique !"

which would be a deliberate insult to a fellow deputy.

To my ears they sound exactly the same. Do they to you?



--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

[lar3ryca]

On 2022-11-04 10:39, Bebercito wrote:
> Le vendredi 4 novembre 2022 à 17:25:54 UTC+1, Quinn C a écrit :
>> * Peter Moylan:
>>> On 03/11/22 13:05, henh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> i'm just trying to understand the literal meaning.
>>>>
>>>> 1. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire de la crémière
>>>
>>> The hazards of reading too quickly. I first read that last one as the
>>> mouse in the cream-jug.
>> <mom-joke>
>> What did the French mouse say when she took a photo of her children?
>
> "Souris, sot" ?

So a smile is called a mouse in French?

--
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

[Bebercito]

Yes, though a t-liaison would be possible and even welcome in the plural.
However, even in the singular, the utterance may not be in insult at all as it could
refer to the boat (= Que le bateau retourne en Afrique !) instead of to the deputy.
As a matter of fact, the latter interpretation is by far the more likely to me. The
whole thing seems to have been blown up out of all proportion, as is always the
case in France when it comes to alleged faux pas by right-wingers.

[Bebercito]

No a smile is "un sourire". "Souris" is both "mouse" and the singular imperative
of the verb "sourire" (to smile). The joke could be (not sure if it is) that "Souris,
sot" sounds like "souriceau", which means "baby mouse", so that the the phrase
could be understood in French as both "Smile, idiot!" and "Baby mouse".

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

That's our impression. They're talking endlessly about it on BFM-TV at
this moment.

[lar3ryca]

Mercy buckets.

--
“Rice is great if you’re really hungry and want to eat two thousand of
something.”
—Mitch Hedberg

[Peter Moylan]

I have a friend who owns a house in the south of France, and whose
French is abysmal even to my ear. The first time he said "mercy buckets"
in Carcassonne, the other person asked "Vous êtes de la montagne ?".

The reason for that question, I presume, is that mountain people have a
reputation in that region for speaking strangely.

[Hibou]

Yes, shame their version isn't in the Bible somewhere. Might've saved a
priest or two.

[CDB]

On 11/4/2022 1:33 PM, lar3ryca wrote:
> Bebercito wrote:
>> Quinn C a écrit :
>>> Peter Moylan:

>>>> henh...@gmail.com wrote:

>>>>> i'm just trying to understand the literal meaning.

>>>>> 1. le beurre, l'argent du beurre et le sourire de la
>>>>> crémière

>>>> The hazards of reading too quickly. I first read that last one
>>>> as the mouse in the cream-jug.
>>> <mom-joke> What did the French mouse say when she took a photo of
>>> her children?

>> "Souris, sot" ?

> So a smile is called a mouse in French?

La souris sourit sur le riz.

[Peter Moylan]

I've just come from a folk club evening featuring George Mann, a New
York folk singer. (I was conducting the support act.) One of his songs
was "You can't be a priest if you don't have a penis". Initially I
misunderstood that, assuming that the church would reject anyone who was
incapable of raping altar boys.

[Bebercito]

Sí. ¡Qué Bulgaridad!