"So's your old man?" "Your mother wears army shoes?"
Daniel P. B. Smith
"Your mother wears army shoes" is obviously intended to be deeply
insulting--presumably it's implying your mother has loose morals, but
why does "to wear army shoes" imply this?
"So's your old man"--a Twenties expression, obviously socially
acceptable or it wouldn't be the title of a W. C. Fields move, but
what's its origin and literal meaning?
--
Daniel P. B. Smith
Email address: dpbs...@world.std.com
"Lifetime forwarding" address: dpbs...@alum.mit.edu
Franke
"Daniel P. B. Smith" wrote:
> Archaic insults:
>
> "Your mother wears army shoes" is obviously intended to be deeply
> insulting--presumably it's implying your mother has loose morals, but
> why does "to wear army shoes" imply this?
It's "army boots" and the most common way a woman
would've been able to wear army boots when the phrase
was coined was by accepting them as payment for sex.
It suggests that "your mother was a whore".
Evan Kirshenbaum
> "So's your old man"--a Twenties expression, obviously socially
> acceptable or it wouldn't be the title of a W. C. Fields move, but
> what's its origin and literal meaning?
I'm not sure of the origin, but the literal meaning would be "what
you've just said (presumably about me) applies to your father, as
well." The context would presumably have been something like
A: You're a bastard.
B: So's your old man.
In other words, "Yeah? Well, you're the son of a bastard".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
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1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |who still remember how to read.
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(650)857-7572
Richard Fontana
> "Daniel P. B. Smith" wrote:
>
> > Archaic insults:
> >
> > "Your mother wears army shoes" is obviously intended to be deeply
> > insulting--presumably it's implying your mother has loose morals, but
> > why does "to wear army shoes" imply this?
>
> It's "army boots"
That seems to be the older, more meaningful version, but just for a datum
point when I was in secondary school that had become a meaningless insult
and it was always "combat boots" (I didn't learn the true meaning until
reading about it here on AUE).
Richard Fontana
> "So's your old man"--a Twenties expression, obviously socially
> acceptable or it wouldn't be the title of a W. C. Fields move, but
> what's its origin and literal meaning?
I don't know; maybe it's like mother insults ("so's your mother", "so's
your momma", "yo momma"). You probably know that "one's old man" is an
old-fashioned slang term (now generally only encountered on
television) meaning one's father. (Maybe also one's boyfriend? "My old
lady" could, I gather, mean either one's mother or one's girlfriend/wife.)
R J Valentine
} "Daniel P. B. Smith" wrote:
}
}> Archaic insults:
}>
}> "Your mother wears army shoes" is obviously intended to be deeply
}> insulting--presumably it's implying your mother has loose morals, but
}> why does "to wear army shoes" imply this?
}
} It's "army boots" and the most common way a woman
} would've been able to wear army boots when the phrase
} was coined was by accepting them as payment for sex.
} It suggests that "your mother was a whore".
It's "combat boots", and the Original Poster sounds painfully British
about it. But the proposed explanation lacks a certain ring of truth to
me. When I was in the Army, we were issued two pairs, and the pair we
weren't wearing was being lovingly cared for whenever we weren't doing
something else. I don't know of anyone who has ever mentioned
_considering_ parting with a pair for something as easy to come by as
sex. Chocolate bars, maybe. Cigarettes in a pinch. Silk stockings back
in the old days, I hear. Did anyone say, "Your mother eats chocolate" or
"Your mother wears silk stockings"?
The implication I got from it was that your mother was in the Army, back
when it was rare for a woman to be in the Army. It happens that my
godmother was in the Army while I was growing up, and it seemed normal
enough to me.
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
R J Valentine
} "Daniel P. B. Smith" <dpbs...@bellatlantic.net> writes:
}
}> "So's your old man"--a Twenties expression, obviously socially
}> acceptable or it wouldn't be the title of a W. C. Fields move, but
}> what's its origin and literal meaning?
}
} I'm not sure of the origin, but the literal meaning would be "what
} you've just said (presumably about me) applies to your father, as
} well." The context would presumably have been something like
}
} A: You're a bastard.
} B: So's your old man.
}
} In other words, "Yeah? Well, you're the son of a bastard".
Well I disagree with the thrust of the "other words", though the preceding
details are there to be looked at.
Reinhold Aman could do it justice, but here's a start.
A direct insult to a person is one level of verbal aggression. There are
people around alt.usage.english who tend to take great offense at personal
insult, and you can expect retaliation in kind if you stoop to that level.
But someone secure in his or her worth can afford to let them bounce off
his or her chest.
Insult to a family member is another thing entirely. Mere mention of
someone else's mother can be a death wish. Insult to a father is merely
an escalation, part of a dance that may lead to the exchange of punches.
But the "son of a" form is a dilution of that nowadays, simply a personal
attack with no particular implications about the parents. I have to
recall back to the fifties to remember the last time I saw someone
actually disclaim an insult to a man's mother after calling him a "son of
a bitch".
So it's the direct "So's your old man" that is the escalation, not the
watered down and unlikely "you're the son of a bastard". I don't even
know that being a son of a bastard is a Bad Thing or that for instance it
disqualifies from any Church office. Would you expect anything but a
quizzical look if you said to someone, "Your grandmother was raped"? Is
HRH The Prince William of Wales supposed to feel bad that he's got
bastards among his ancestors? Would William Rufus or Henry Beauclerc feel
bad if someone called their father a bastard?
It's the direct insult of someone you might be expected to defend that's a
graver issue than an insult that presents the target's option to ignore it
like an adult or retaliate in kind like a child.
And there are far more effective ways to insult a person than either of
those.
Peter.P
"Daniel P. B. Smith" <dpbs...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message..
> Archaic insults:
>
> "Your mother wears army shoes" is obviously intended to be deeply
> insulting--presumably it's implying your mother has loose morals, but
> why does "to wear army shoes" imply this?
This thread stirs odd memories for me. Portsmouth is near enough my paternal
home town and I recollect in the early thirties seeing working class women
scrubbing down yards wearing masculine naval type boots.. There was a
humorous book around at that period called the Musings of a Merry Matelot
and illustrations in it depicted a sailor's wife all dressed up for a
social occasion whilst another showed her the next morning wearing her
husband's boots as she did the external housework. For what it is worth.
Peter P
P. Schultz
>
> "Daniel P. B. Smith" wrote:
>
> > Archaic insults:
> >
> > "Your mother wears army shoes" is obviously intended to be deeply
> > insulting--presumably it's implying your mother has loose morals, but
> > why does "to wear army shoes" imply this?
>
I expect that the "army shoes" version was original, and the "boots" and
"combat boots" versions were coined by the less imaginative, to
"improve" on the original. It would make less sense for it to have moved
in the other direction.
In any case, the more pithy "army shoes" version is alive and well:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,55118,00.html
\\P. Schultz
Raymond S. Wise
> Archaic insults:
>
> "Your mother wears army shoes" is obviously intended to be deeply
> insulting--presumably it's implying your mother has loose morals, but
> why does "to wear army shoes" imply this?
>
[snip]
I do not believe that "Your mother wears army boots"--which is how I
think the insult went--ever implied that the mother in question had
loose morals. Rather, it implied that she was unrefined.
I am under the impression that the character of Granny, Daisy Moses,
played by Irene Ryan on _The Beverly Hillbillies_ wore army boots. I
did find one Web page which stated as much (or, rather, a Google
cached form of that page):
[quote]
[Max Baer, Jr. told] one story about how he and Reenie [i.e, Irene
Ryan] were doing a scene together once, and for some reason
unbeknownst to him, she kicked him with one of those army boots she
wore. He asked her (not so politely) why? She pointed upwards, "You
were in my key light."
[end quote]
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
kibishii
You are right about this being "combat boots", even when I was in secondary school.
Raymond S. Wise
Google searches yielded the following:
"mother wears army shoes"
15 hits.
"mother wears army boots"
613 hits.
"mother wears combat boots"
348 hits.
I should note that there was a 1989 TV-movie directed by Anson
Williams called _Your Mother Wears Combat Boots,_ which starred
Barbara Eden and Hector Elizondo.
P. Schultz
> Google searches yielded the following:
>
> "mother wears army shoes"
> 15 hits. <...>
[etc.]
Good snapshot of which version is currently in vogue. But it doesn't say
anything about its origin, its subsequent evolution, or what was
considered the "real" version over the years.
\\P. Schultz