pronunciation: dogged as a verb and an adjective

[Yilaner]

"his dogged persistence"
"a career dogged by injury"
------------------------------------

Are "dogged" pronounced the same in the two cases?

[Guy Barry]

"Yilaner" wrote in message
news:8a199ffd-7f82-4b9f...@6g2000pbh.googlegroups.com...

Not by me. Two syllables in the first, one in the second.

--
Guy Barry

[Stan Brown]

And the same for me.

AHD gives two two-syllable pronunciations for the adjective ("g" at
the end of the first syllable or at the start of the second). It
shows the verb as a single syllable.

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Guy Barry]

"Stan Brown" wrote in message
news:MPG.2af70671c...@news.individual.net...

> AHD gives two two-syllable pronunciations for the adjective ("g" at
> the end of the first syllable or at the start of the second).

How can you tell the difference?

--
Guy Barry

[tony cooper]

On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 06:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Yilaner <yil...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Interesting. Never thought about this.

I don't pronounce them the same. The first usage is two distinct
syllables: dog-ged. The second usage is one continuous sound.


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Christian Weisgerber]

tony cooper <tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >"his dogged persistence"
> >"a career dogged by injury"
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Are "dogged" pronounced the same in the two cases?
>
> Interesting. Never thought about this.
>
> I don't pronounce them the same. The first usage is two distinct
> syllables: dog-ged. The second usage is one continuous sound.

It's the same with "blessed".
Anybody have a list of such pairs?

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de

[R H Draney]

Christian Weisgerber filted:

>
>tony cooper <tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >"his dogged persistence"
>> >"a career dogged by injury"
>> >------------------------------------
>> >
>> >Are "dogged" pronounced the same in the two cases?
>>
>> Interesting. Never thought about this.
>>
>> I don't pronounce them the same. The first usage is two distinct
>> syllables: dog-ged. The second usage is one continuous sound.
>
>It's the same with "blessed".
>Anybody have a list of such pairs?

I'd like to see such a list too, especially if it includes pairs of words with
different numbers of syllables for other reasons, and if the verb/adjective
instances include some where there are other differences in pronunciation than
mere extra syllables....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Stan Brown]

It uses a dot between syllables. In the principal parts of the verb,
it has dogged and dog.ging.

[annily]

On 29.10.12 08:29, Lewis wrote:
> In message <8a199ffd-7f82-4b9f...@6g2000pbh.googlegroups.com>

> Normally, yes; sometimes the first may be pronounced with the /E/ that
> aged takes when referring to a person and not a cheese.
>
Not normally, IME (and apparently in the experience of others who have
replied so far).

[Guy Barry]

"Stan Brown" wrote in message

news:MPG.2af7a2039...@news.individual.net...

> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 14:30:42 -0000, Guy Barry wrote:
>
> > "Stan Brown" wrote in message
> > news:MPG.2af70671c...@news.individual.net...
>
> > > AHD gives two two-syllable pronunciations for the adjective ("g" at
> > > the end of the first syllable or at the start of the second).
>
> > How can you tell the difference?

> It uses a dot between syllables. In the principal parts of the verb,
> it has dogged and dog.ging.

You misunderstand. How can you tell in speech whether a consonant belongs
to the end of one syllable or the beginning of the next?

--
Guy Barry

[Andrew B]

On 28/10/2012 17:34, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> tony cooper <tony.co...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> "his dogged persistence"
>>> "a career dogged by injury"
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Are "dogged" pronounced the same in the two cases?
>>
>> Interesting. Never thought about this.
>>
>> I don't pronounce them the same. The first usage is two distinct
>> syllables: dog-ged. The second usage is one continuous sound.
>
> It's the same with "blessed".
> Anybody have a list of such pairs?

From "The Simpsons":
"Oh Papa Homer - you are so learn-ed."
"'Learned', son, it's pronounced 'learned'."

[Guy Barry]

"Andrew B" wrote in message news:k6lign$eim$1...@dont-email.me...

I can think of "aged", "beloved", "cursed", and perhaps "ragged".

--
Guy Barry

[Jerry Friedman]

On Oct 29, 3:29 am, "Guy Barry" <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "Stan Brown"  wrote in message
>
> news:MPG.2af7a2039...@news.individual.net...
>
> > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 14:30:42 -0000, Guy Barry wrote:
> > > "Stan Brown"  wrote in message
> > >news:MPG.2af70671c...@news.individual.net...
>
> > > > AHD gives two two-syllable pronunciations for the adjective ("g" at
> > > > the end of the first syllable or at the start of the second).
>
> > > How can you tell the difference?
> > It uses a dot between syllables.  In the principal parts of the verb,
> > it has dogged and dog.ging.
>
> You misunderstand.  How can you tell in speech whether a consonant belongs
> to the end of one syllable or the beginning of the next?

I'm not sure he misunderstands. The two pronunciations are "dô.gĭd"
and "dŏg.ĭd" (/dO gId/ and /dAg Id/). As for how the lexicographers
can tell which syllable the consonant is part of, I don't know, but
maybe they have rules for syllabication that depend on the vowel.

Also, the /I/ surprises me. I'd have thought it was safe to
transcribe AmE "-ed" with a schwa. And where's the accent mark?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Guy Barry]

"Jerry Friedman" wrote in message
news:8162bcbf-4cab-469b...@n2g2000pbp.googlegroups.com...

> On Oct 29, 3:29 am, "Guy Barry" <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> > You misunderstand. How can you tell in speech whether a consonant
> > belongs
> > to the end of one syllable or the beginning of the next?

> I'm not sure he misunderstands. The two pronunciations are "dô.gĭd"
> and "dŏg.ĭd" (/dO gId/ and /dAg Id/).

Ah well. They would both be /'dA.gId/ for me, so there'd be no difference
in the vowel.

--
Guy Barry

[Christian Weisgerber]

Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:

> Anybody have a list of such pairs?

After a little bit of googling, here's a start of adjectives on
-ed /Id/:

aged
beloved
blessed
crooked
dogged
learned
legged
naked
ragged
rugged
wicked
wretched

Some of these share their spelling with participles of related or
unrelated verbs with nonsyllabic -ed. (I'm purposely vague here,
because I'm not terribly interested in people proudly digging up
ever more obscure verbs...)

From an EFL perspective, "blessed" and "learned" are the two most
likely to give rise to confusion.

[Guy Barry]

On Oct 29, 4:46 pm, na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
> > Anybody have a list of such pairs?
>
> After a little bit of googling, here's a start of adjectives on
> -ed /Id/:
>
> aged
> beloved
> blessed
> crooked
> dogged
> learned
> legged
> naked
> ragged
> rugged
> wicked
> wretched

I mentioned "(ac)cursed" before. And how about "jagged"?

Some people pronounce "alleged" that way, but I think it's a mistaken
back-formation from "allegedly".

--
Guy Barry

[Katy Jennison]

On 29/10/2012 16:46, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> From an EFL perspective, "blessed" and "learned" are the two most
> likely to give rise to confusion.
>

That's the advantage of BrE "blest" and "learnt". Or at the least, in
the case of the former, "bless'd".

--
Katy Jennison

[Katy Jennison]

On 30/10/2012 02:37, Lewis wrote:
> In message<FLsjs.73080$vW7....@fx19.am4>

> Ragged is always pronounced with an /E/ though, I've never heard it
> 'ragd'... although I could maybe see it if one was referring to someone
> playing a ragtime piano.
>

That style of wall decoration in which colour is applied with a
scrunched-up rag, and which is probably called ragging: if my walls
sported this, I might say my wall had been ragged, one syllable.

--
Katy Jennison

[Mark Brader]

Guy Barry:

> > I can think of "aged", "beloved", "cursed", and perhaps "ragged".

"Lewis":

> Ragged is always pronounced with an /E/ though, I've never heard it
> 'ragd'... although I could maybe see it if one was referring to someone
> playing a ragtime piano.

"Keon ragged the puck for a full 30 seconds until the penalty was over."
--
Mark Brader, Toronto Well, somebody had to be the pedant here!
m...@vex.net -- David Keldsen

[Mark Brader]

"Lewis":
>>> Ragged is always pronounced with an /E/ though, I've never heard it
>>> 'ragd'... although I could maybe see it if one was referring to someone
>>> playing a ragtime piano.

Mark Brader:

>> "Keon ragged the puck for a full 30 seconds until the penalty was over."

"Lewis":
> I have no idea what that means.

"And THERE's your problem." <grin>
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Altruism is a fine motive, but if you want results,
m...@vex.net | greed works much better." -- Henry Spencer

[Mark Brader]

Mark Brader:

>> "Keon ragged the puck for a full 30 seconds until the penalty was over."

"Lewis":
> I have no idea what that means.

And now the serious answer. Working to kill the penalty, he weaved
and dodged and stickhandled well enough that none of the opponents
could check the puck away from him, but without any great attempt to
advance forward.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "I tried reading a book on Zeno, but
m...@vex.net I only got halfway." --Lee Ayrton

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Guy Barry]

"Mark Brader" wrote in message
news:1qWdnZk4H6L7Aw3N...@vex.net...

> Guy Barry:
> > > I can think of "aged", "beloved", "cursed", and perhaps "ragged".

> "Lewis":
> > Ragged is always pronounced with an /E/ though, I've never heard it
> > 'ragd'... although I could maybe see it if one was referring to someone
> > playing a ragtime piano.

Don't you have the verb "rag" meaning "to torment or tease"? E.g.
"the
bullies ragged their victim".

--
Guy Barry

[Christian Weisgerber]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> > I can think of "aged", "beloved", "cursed", and perhaps "ragged".
>

> Ragged is always pronounced with an /E/ though,

I think you mean /I/ or /@/. Using the DRESS vowel there would be
strange.

> I've never heard it 'ragd'... although I could maybe see it if
> one was referring to someone playing a ragtime piano.

You can rag on somebody and if you did this in the past, you ragged
on them.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Guy Barry <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Some people pronounce "alleged" that way, but I think it's a mistaken
> back-formation from "allegedly".

*Shrug* Merriam-Webster gives it a separate entry.

The list stands at...

(ac)cursed
aged
alleged
beloved
blessed
crooked
dogged
jagged

learned
legged
naked
ragged
rugged
wicked
wretched

... but for some of them even as an adjective the /Id/ pronounciation
is just *a* variant, so this is all getting a tad complicated.

[BCD]

On 10/31/2012 6:13 PM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <84343c24-22c7-428e...@y6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>

> Not since I was in school.

***My experience here in Southern California is that "rag" in the sense
of "torment or tease" is still in the active vocabulary, if somewhat
feebly, and is certainly on call passively. The statement "Ed got
ragged [rag'd] on last Tuesday during recess by Billy and Wilhelmina
merely because one of the sequins on his evening gown had become
detached during football" would be understood as it was intended.

Best Wishes,

--BCD

[Jerry Friedman]

On Oct 31, 9:59 am, na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:

> Guy Barry  <guy.ba...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Some people pronounce "alleged" that way, but I think it's a mistaken
> > back-formation from "allegedly".
>
> *Shrug*  Merriam-Webster gives it a separate entry.
>
> The list stands at...
>
> (ac)cursed
> aged
> alleged
> beloved
> blessed
> crooked
> dogged
> jagged
> learned
> legged
> naked
> ragged
> rugged
> wicked
> wretched

Also "supposed" for some Americans and "marked" for fewer (I think).
These two are erroneous back formations from the -ly adverbs, in my
opinion.

> ... but for some of them even as an adjective the /Id/ pronounciation
> is just *a* variant, so this is all getting a tad complicated.

--

Jerry Friedman

[Christian Weisgerber]

BCD <pilt...@verizon.net> wrote:

> ***My experience here in Southern California is that "rag" in the sense
> of "torment or tease" is still in the active vocabulary, if somewhat
> feebly, and is certainly on call passively.

The transitive verb "to rag" or specifically the phrasal verb
"to rag on"?

M-W offers this example:
"several readers called in to rag the editor for his paper's repeated
grammatical lapses"

[BCD]

On 11/1/2012 11:22 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> BCD <pilt...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> ***My experience here in Southern California is that "rag" in the sense
>> of "torment or tease" is still in the active vocabulary, if somewhat
>> feebly, and is certainly on call passively.
>
> The transitive verb "to rag" or specifically the phrasal verb
> "to rag on"?
>
> M-W offers this example:
> "several readers called in to rag the editor for his paper's repeated
> grammatical lapses"

***I'd gather from the context what was meant in the above example; but
I personally have only heard (and used) it, in this sense, with the
"on." To rag something without the "on" would call to mind the usage in
that scene in *Show Boat* in which a character is told to rag (i.e.,
metamorphose into ragtime) the staid tune "After the Ball" (readers of
another thread might be interested to note that this one-time pop song
from long ago is in 3/4 time). The only circumstance under which I
would be comfortable stating that I had ragged a someone (rather than a
something)--without the "on"--would be if somehow it had fallen to my
lot to reduce a person's clothing to rags.

***The "rag" in your example gains a little extra vigor from the fact
that a periodical held in some contempt will often be called a "rag" by
its detractors.

Best Wishes,

--BCD

[BCD]

On 11/2/2012 8:31 AM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <k6u9jv$510$1...@dont-email.me>

> BCD <pilt...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> ***My experience here in Southern California is that "rag" in the sense
>> of "torment or tease" is still in the active vocabulary,
>

> Of adults? Or limited to school kids (albeit older school kids)?
>
> I consider it to be in that class of teen slang<1> that doesn't generally
> make it out of the school and into the adult population, sort of like
> gnarly and poopy-head.

***I'd say the adult usage (I have no data for the young'uns in school
usage) would be of the casual and self-consciously breezy category,
which is a notch or two above juvenile schoolyardese. I can imagine
myself saying to a neighbor "Did you hear that Councilman MacWhirter got
ragged on by the reporters last night at the council meeting?", and so
saying without shame. I can't imagine myself shamelessly saying "That
poopy-headed Councilman MacWhirter was grilled by those gnarly reporters
at the council meeting last night."

Best Wishes,

--BCD

[R H Draney]

BCD filted:

>
>On 11/1/2012 11:22 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>
>> M-W offers this example:
>> "several readers called in to rag the editor for his paper's repeated
>> grammatical lapses"
>

>***The "rag" in your example gains a little extra vigor from the fact
>that a periodical held in some contempt will often be called a "rag" by
>its detractors.

Did Scott Joplin consider the title "Maple Leaf Rag" to be an insulting
sobriquet for the Canadian flag?...r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[BCD]

On 11/2/2012 2:03 PM, R H Draney wrote:
> BCD filted:

>> ***The "rag" in your example gains a little extra vigor from the fact
>> that a periodical held in some contempt will often be called a "rag" by
>> its detractors.
>
> Did Scott Joplin consider the title "Maple Leaf Rag" to be an insulting
> sobriquet for the Canadian flag?...r

***There is no indication that he did. Ultimately, there were many rags
with botanical/floral names (though, off the top of my head, I'd say
this was the first). The original cover didn't even feature a maple
leaf, which perhaps militates for the theory that it was named to honor
the Maple Leaf Club of Sedalia, where the rag was first published by
John Stark & Son.

***Whatever its usage concerning periodicals, "rag" doesn't seem to have
carried much negativity in the category of flags. The original name of
Geo. M. Cohan's "You're a Grand Old Flag" (1906; the Maple Leaf Rag was
published in 1899) was "You're a Grand Old Rag," which surely wouldn't
have even occurred to the patriotic GMC had it been an insulting term.
(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You're_a_Grand_Old_Flag .) While the
public didn't like Old Glory being referred to as a "rag," hence the
change, it was probably simply because of the humble status of literal
rags, not because the term was somehow opprobrious.

***As it happens, popular music circa 1890-1920 is one of my interests
(see http://www.csulb.edu/~odinthor/music.html ).

Best Wishes,

--BCD

[Stan Brown]

On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 17:04:02 -0700, BCD wrote:
>
> On 11/2/2012 2:03 PM, R H Draney wrote:
> > BCD filted:
>
> >> ***The "rag" in your example gains a little extra vigor from the fact
> >> that a periodical held in some contempt will often be called a "rag" by
> >> its detractors.
> >
> > Did Scott Joplin consider the title "Maple Leaf Rag" to be an insulting
> > sobriquet for the Canadian flag?...r
>
> ***There is no indication that he did.

And an excellent indication that he didn't. The maple leaf flag was
created in the 1960s, almost fifty years after Joplin's death.


--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[Mark Brader]

R.H. Draney:

> Did Scott Joplin consider the title "Maple Leaf Rag" to be an insulting
> sobriquet for the Canadian flag?

What Canadian flag? Canada didn't have its own flag until 1965.

(The Red Ensign, which went through several versions but probably
looked like this when Joplin was writing that rag

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/c/ca-1868.gif

was widely used but was never officially "the Canadian flag".)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Computers may be very, very fast,
m...@vex.net | but they aren't very, very smart."
-- after Steve Summit

[Mark Brader]

Stan Brown:

> And an excellent indication that he didn't. The maple leaf flag was
> created in the 1960s, almost fifty years after Joplin's death.

Sorry, I missed seeing this before writing my posting.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "After much soul-searching, the DMR decided to
m...@vex.net | go with UNIX." -- "/aur" magazine, April-May '89

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

A more common example might be "ragged" as the past participle of the
verb "to rag", meaning to tease.

--
athel

[Mike L]

On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 17:04:02 -0700, BCD <pilt...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On 11/2/2012 2:03 PM, R H Draney wrote:
>> BCD filted:
>
>>> ***The "rag" in your example gains a little extra vigor from the fact
>>> that a periodical held in some contempt will often be called a "rag" by
>>> its detractors.
>>
>> Did Scott Joplin consider the title "Maple Leaf Rag" to be an insulting
>> sobriquet for the Canadian flag?...r

In Joplin's time, the maple leaves were far from conspicuous on the
Canadian red ensign. One US writer, Stewart White, even referred to it
as the "English flag".

>
>***There is no indication that he did. Ultimately, there were many rags
>with botanical/floral names (though, off the top of my head, I'd say
>this was the first). The original cover didn't even feature a maple
>leaf, which perhaps militates for the theory that it was named to honor
>the Maple Leaf Club of Sedalia, where the rag was first published by
>John Stark & Son.
>
>***Whatever its usage concerning periodicals, "rag" doesn't seem to have
>carried much negativity in the category of flags. The original name of
>Geo. M. Cohan's "You're a Grand Old Flag" (1906; the Maple Leaf Rag was
>published in 1899) was "You're a Grand Old Rag," which surely wouldn't
>have even occurred to the patriotic GMC had it been an insulting term.
>(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You're_a_Grand_Old_Flag .) While the
>public didn't like Old Glory being referred to as a "rag," hence the
>change, it was probably simply because of the humble status of literal
>rags, not because the term was somehow opprobrious.

"Rag" could be used to express either affection of contempt for a
given flag. "The red rag" was used with pride of the merchantmen's
"red duster" (plain for British ships, and with the Southern Cross for
the now obsolete Australian version), and with malice of communism's
"red flag".

>
>***As it happens, popular music circa 1890-1920 is one of my interests
>(see http://www.csulb.edu/~odinthor/music.html ).
>

--
Mike.

[Mike L]

On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 03:41:05 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Stan Brown:
>> And an excellent indication that he didn't. The maple leaf flag was
>> created in the 1960s, almost fifty years after Joplin's death.
>
>Sorry, I missed seeing this before writing my posting.

Me too sorry.

--
Mike.

[Dr Nick]

na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes:

> Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
>> Anybody have a list of such pairs?
>

> After a little bit of googling, here's a start of adjectives on -ed
> /Id/:
>
> aged beloved blessed crooked dogged learned legged naked ragged rugged
> wicked wretched

Participants on Only Connect seem to have started calling one of the
symbols "hornèd viper". I'm not entirely convinced myself.