you had better vs you better had
Isabelle Cecchini
In the series _Doctors_, which I have been watching on BBC Prime, I
heard the following exchange:
(Character B has just hurt herself. Character A is worried.)
A: --I'm calling a doctor.
B: --Yeah, I think you better had.
That prompts my question: would there have been any difference in
meaning, emphasis or anything else if B had said "I think you'd (or
had) better"?
Puzzledly,
Isabelle Cecchini
Ben Webster
Isabelle Cecchini wrote:
Well, in my personal ideolect, "i think you better had"
is ungrammatical. I've never heard anyone say that before.
If I ran across it, I don't think I would have any idea
what it was supposed to mean. B should have said "Yeah,
I think you'd better."
Has anyone else encountered it?
Ben
Donna Richoux
Americans, at least 20th-century-plus, would always say "you had
better," never "you better had." I think the British say both.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Michael J Hardy
I've never heard "You better had." I've always heard
"You had better." Construed literally, neither makes sense.
I suspect "you had better" is a corruption of "you would better."
Mike Hardy
Steve Hayes
No.
Though I think "you better had" is slang.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Skitt
> "Isabelle Cecchini" wrote:
>> In the series _Doctors_, which I have been watching on BBC Prime, I
>> heard the following exchange:
>>
>> (Character B has just hurt herself. Character A is worried.)
>> A: --I'm calling a doctor.
>> B: --Yeah, I think you better had.
>>
>> That prompts my question: would there have been any difference in
>> meaning, emphasis or anything else if B had said "I think you'd (or
>> had) better"?
>
> No.
>
> Though I think "you better had" is slang.
In AmE, the expression "you'd better" is not slang, and it stands for "you
should better [do that]".
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)
CyberCypher
news:ag076p$hqj87$1...@ID-61580.news.dfncis.de:
> Steve Hayes wrote:
[...]
>> Though I think "you better had" is slang.
>
> In AmE, the expression "you'd better" is not slang, and it stands
> for "you should better [do that]".
I always thought and have often read that "You'd better" means "You had
better". I find "You should better" unidiomatic in AmE and
International English.
--
Franke: "There are no great religions, only great myths and great
mistakes." Bodhisattva F. A. Tchirl.
Grammar 1: Internalized rules for the spoken language.
Grammar 2: Formal rules for the written language.
Grammar 1 does not equal Grammar 2.
Richard Fontana
On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Skitt wrote:
> Steve Hayes wrote:
> > "Isabelle Cecchini" wrote:
>
> >> In the series _Doctors_, which I have been watching on BBC Prime, I
> >> heard the following exchange:
> >>
> >> (Character B has just hurt herself. Character A is worried.)
> >> A: --I'm calling a doctor.
> >> B: --Yeah, I think you better had.
> >>
> >> That prompts my question: would there have been any difference in
> >> meaning, emphasis or anything else if B had said "I think you'd (or
> >> had) better"?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > Though I think "you better had" is slang.
>
> In AmE, the expression "you'd better" is not slang, and it stands for "you
> should better [do that]".
I think it stands for "you had better [do that]".
Stephen Toogood
<haye...@yahoo.com> writes
>On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:27:36 +0200, "Isabelle Cecchini"
><isabelle...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
>>Hello
>>
>>In the series _Doctors_, which I have been watching on BBC Prime, I
>>heard the following exchange:
>>
>>(Character B has just hurt herself. Character A is worried.)
>>A: --I'm calling a doctor.
>>B: --Yeah, I think you better had.
>>
>>That prompts my question: would there have been any difference in
>>meaning, emphasis or anything else if B had said "I think you'd (or
>>had) better"?
>
>No.
>
>Though I think "you better had" is slang.
>
seen it in written English.
It also seems to be geographically limited to the south east of England,
though with the spread of Estuary that may not be the case for long.
--
Stephen Toogood
Matti Lamprhey
> "Skitt" <sk...@earthlink.net> burbled
> > Steve Hayes wrote:
> [...]
> >> Though I think "you better had" is slang.
> >
> > In AmE, the expression "you'd better" is not slang, and it stands
> > for "you should better [do that]".
>
> I always thought and have often read that "You'd better" means "You had
> better". I find "You should better" unidiomatic in AmE and
> International English.
You are absolutely right, Franke.
"You better had" is unusual in British English, but it's used when the
stress is required on the "had" instead of the "better". Stress on the
"better" lends itself to threatening contexts:
"I'm going to call you a doctor"
"You better had."
"I'm going to call you 'Sir' in future"
"You'd better." -- and that's "had", not "should" or "would".
Matti
CyberCypher
news:ag1649$hrn5m$1...@ID-103223.news.dfncis.de:
> "CyberCypher" <fra...@seed.net.tw> wrote...
>> "Skitt" <sk...@earthlink.net> burbled
>> > Steve Hayes wrote:
>> [...]
>> >> Though I think "you better had" is slang.
>> >
>> > In AmE, the expression "you'd better" is not slang, and it
>> > stands for "you should better [do that]".
>>
>> I always thought and have often read that "You'd better" means
>> "You had better". I find "You should better" unidiomatic in AmE
>> and International English.
>
> You are absolutely right, Franke.
>
> "You better had" is unusual in British English, but it's used when
> the stress is required on the "had" instead of the "better".
> Stress on the "better" lends itself to threatening contexts:
>
> "I'm going to call you a doctor"
> "You better had."
Are you saying that primary stress (and perhaps rising intonation or
pitch) is on "had" in this sentence and not on "better"? I'd probably
place the stress on "better" in both "You better had" and "You had
better".
Matti Lamprhey
> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> burbled
> >
> > "You better had" is unusual in British English, but it's used when
> > the stress is required on the "had" instead of the "better".
> > Stress on the "better" lends itself to threatening contexts:
> >
> > "I'm going to call you a doctor"
> > "You better had."
>
> Are you saying that primary stress (and perhaps rising intonation or
> pitch) is on "had" in this sentence and not on "better"?
Absolutely. It may not be clear following your snippage that the example
remaining above is the NON-threatening one.
> I'd probably place the stress on "better" in both "You better had" and
> "You had better".
In Britain the stress is on the last word for both of these. This is the
only reason why the two forms are used, so that the stress can be deduced
from the written form.
Matti
CyberCypher
news:ag1c0d$hs2ra$1...@ID-103223.news.dfncis.de:
> "CyberCypher" <fra...@seed.net.tw> wrote...
>> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> burbled
>> >
>> > "You better had" is unusual in British English, but it's used
>> > when the stress is required on the "had" instead of the
>> > "better". Stress on the "better" lends itself to threatening
>> > contexts:
>> >
>> > "I'm going to call you a doctor"
>> > "You better had."
>>
>> Are you saying that primary stress (and perhaps rising intonation
>> or pitch) is on "had" in this sentence and not on "better"?
>
> Absolutely. It may not be clear following your snippage that the
> example remaining above is the NON-threatening one.
I think your paragraph makes that clear.
>> I'd probably place the stress on "better" in both "You better
>> had" and "You had better".
> In Britain the stress is on the last word for both of these. This
> is the only reason why the two forms are used, so that the stress
> can be deduced from the written form.
Most interesting.
dcw
Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
>"CyberCypher" <fra...@seed.net.tw> wrote...
>> I'd probably place the stress on "better" in both "You better had" and
>> "You had better".
>
>In Britain the stress is on the last word for both of these. This is the
>only reason why the two forms are used, so that the stress can be deduced
>from the written form.
When I say "You better had", I'm not usually thinking about how I would
write it.
David
Matti Lamprhey
> Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> wrote:
> >"CyberCypher" <fra...@seed.net.tw> wrote...
>
> >> I'd probably place the stress on "better" in both "You better had" and
> >> "You had better".
> >
> >In Britain the stress is on the last word for both of these. This is the
> >only reason why the two forms are used, so that the stress can be deduced
> >from the written form.
>
> When I say "You better had", I'm not usually thinking about how I would
> write it.
You'd better, going forward.
Matti;-)
K. Edgcombe
Ben Webster <bwe...@simons-rock.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Well, in my personal ideolect, "i think you better had"
>is ungrammatical. I've never heard anyone say that before.
>If I ran across it, I don't think I would have any idea
>what it was supposed to mean. B should have said "Yeah,
>I think you'd better."
>
>Has anyone else encountered it?
>
Common in informal UK English.
Katy
Ben Webster
says...
Oh man. British people are even weirder than I thought.
ben
Evan Kirshenbaum
> "You better had" is unusual in British English, but it's used when the
> stress is required on the "had" instead of the "better". Stress on the
> "better" lends itself to threatening contexts:
>
> "I'm going to call you a doctor"
> "You better had."
>
> "I'm going to call you 'Sir' in future"
> "You'd better." -- and that's "had", not "should" or "would".
So what's the status of the negative? I remember reading Dianna Wynn
Jones's _Archer's Goon_ and tripping over "bett'n't had". (I'm not
sure of the spelling of "bett'n't".)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |There is something fascinating
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |about science. One gets such
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |wholesale returns of conjecture out
|of such a trifling investment of
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |fact.
(650)857-7572 | Mark Twain
Matti Lamprhey
> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-...@totally-official.com> writes:
>
> > "You better had" is unusual in British English, but it's used when the
> > stress is required on the "had" instead of the "better". Stress on the
> > "better" lends itself to threatening contexts:
> >
> > "I'm going to call you a doctor"
> > "You better had."
> >
> > "I'm going to call you 'Sir' in future"
> > "You'd better." -- and that's "had", not "should" or "would".
>
> So what's the status of the negative? I remember reading Dianna Wynn
> Jones's _Archer's Goon_ and tripping over "bett'n't had". (I'm not
> sure of the spelling of "bett'n't".)
I would have tripped with you on that one -- unheard, I'd say. I think the
negative equivalents would more likely be:
"I'm wondering whether to call you a doctor."
"Better not to." -- note the absence of the "had" motif here, though
"I'm wondering whether to tell the police about this."
"You'd better not."
Matti
Steve Hayes
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>> "Isabelle Cecchini" wrote:
>
>>> In the series _Doctors_, which I have been watching on BBC Prime, I
>>> heard the following exchange:
>>>
>>> (Character B has just hurt herself. Character A is worried.)
>>> A: --I'm calling a doctor.
>>> B: --Yeah, I think you better had.
>>>
>>> That prompts my question: would there have been any difference in
>>> meaning, emphasis or anything else if B had said "I think you'd (or
>>> had) better"?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> Though I think "you better had" is slang.
>
>In AmE, the expression "you'd better" is not slang, and it stands for "you
>should better [do that]".
"You'd better" isn't slang in my English, and, as far as I know, in British
English. It's "you better had" that is slang, and strikes me as mildly
facetious, though it means the same.
"You should better", however, must be peculiar to AmE. It sounds strange to
me.
CyberCypher
news:3d24391f...@news.saix.net:
> On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:06:34 -0700, "Skitt" <sk...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> "Isabelle Cecchini" wrote:
>>
>>>> In the series _Doctors_, which I have been watching on BBC
>>>> Prime, I heard the following exchange:
>>>>
>>>> (Character B has just hurt herself. Character A is worried.)
>>>> A: --I'm calling a doctor.
>>>> B: --Yeah, I think you better had.
>>>>
>>>> That prompts my question: would there have been any difference
>>>> in meaning, emphasis or anything else if B had said "I think
>>>> you'd (or had) better"?
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> Though I think "you better had" is slang.
>>
>>In AmE, the expression "you'd better" is not slang, and it stands
>>for "you should better [do that]".
>
> "You'd better" isn't slang in my English, and, as far as I know,
> in British English. It's "you better had" that is slang, and
> strikes me as mildly facetious, though it means the same.
>
> "You should better", however, must be peculiar to AmE. It sounds
> strange to me.
Strictly Skitt-English, I'd say.
Kevin Plumley
It has always been my impression that this was an abbreviation,
as say in 'You'd better not do that!' and that after a blithe century
or so of this people then said 'You should not abbreviate, say
"You HAD better not..." ' when the abbreviation had really been
of "You WOULD better not ..." - because that is the sense of it,
when you come to think of it. - You would be better not doing
that.
Is anyone going to tell me I am wrong?
Michael J Hardy
> I suspect "you had better" is a corruption of "you would better."
Can anyone offer any informed comments on my speculation?
Mike Hardy
Skitt
> "Skitt" burbled:
>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> Though I think "you better had" is slang.
>>
>> In AmE, the expression "you'd better" is not slang, and it stands
>> for "you should better [do that]".
>
> I always thought and have often read that "You'd better" means "You
> had better". I find "You should better" unidiomatic in AmE and
> International English.
You are right. What was I thinking!
Skitt
Yup. I screwed up [again].
Skitt
> On Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:06:34 -0700, "Skitt" <sk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> "Isabelle Cecchini" wrote:
>>
>>>> In the series _Doctors_, which I have been watching on BBC Prime, I
>>>> heard the following exchange:
>>>>
>>>> (Character B has just hurt herself. Character A is worried.)
>>>> A: --I'm calling a doctor.
>>>> B: --Yeah, I think you better had.
>>>>
>>>> That prompts my question: would there have been any difference in
>>>> meaning, emphasis or anything else if B had said "I think you'd (or
>>>> had) better"?
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>> Though I think "you better had" is slang.
>>
>> In AmE, the expression "you'd better" is not slang, and it stands
>> for "you should better [do that]".
>
> "You'd better" isn't slang in my English, and, as far as I know, in
> British English. It's "you better had" that is slang, and strikes me
> as mildly facetious, though it means the same.
>
> "You should better", however, must be peculiar to AmE. It sounds
> strange to me.
I have admitted my error and am now in the process of repenting.
Skitt
> (Steve Hayes) burbled:
>> "Skitt" wrote:
>>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>> "Isabelle Cecchini" wrote:
>>>>> In the series _Doctors_, which I have been watching on BBC
>>>>> Prime, I heard the following exchange:
>>>>>
>>>>> (Character B has just hurt herself. Character A is worried.)
>>>>> A: --I'm calling a doctor.
>>>>> B: --Yeah, I think you better had.
>>>>>
>>>>> That prompts my question: would there have been any difference
>>>>> in meaning, emphasis or anything else if B had said "I think
>>>>> you'd (or had) better"?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>> Though I think "you better had" is slang.
>>>
>>> In AmE, the expression "you'd better" is not slang, and it stands
>>> for "you should better [do that]".
>>
>> "You'd better" isn't slang in my English, and, as far as I know,
>> in British English. It's "you better had" that is slang, and
>> strikes me as mildly facetious, though it means the same.
>>
>> "You should better", however, must be peculiar to AmE. It sounds
>> strange to me.
>
> Strictly Skitt-English, I'd say.
Tomorrow, more lessons in Skitt-English, providing interest hasn't waned.
Steve Hayes
<ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <3d238bdb...@news.saix.net>, Steve Hayes
>>Though I think "you better had" is slang.
>>
>I think I would rather call it 'informal', and it's spoken; I've not
>seen it in written English.
I won't quibble about the distinction.
>It also seems to be geographically limited to the south east of England,
>though with the spread of Estuary that may not be the case for long.
I first recall hearing it among schoolkids in south-east London. I imagine
that it might be written in a fictional dialogue trying to reproduce their
dialect, but wouldn't expect to see it in a formal document.
Isabelle Cecchini
Stephen Toogood <ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> a écrit dans le
message : pQ6m1VAh...@stenches.demon.co.uk...
Thanks!
I found one occurence of "you better had" in the OED:
1965 'Lauchmonen' Old Thom's Harvest vii. 95 Winston, man, you better
had go back to your *pork-knocking.
'Pork-knocking': I first thought that it was something akin to
'cow-tipping', but no. It means prospecting for gold or diamonds, in
Guyana.
Isabelle Cecchini
Isabelle Cecchini
Matti Lamprhey <matti-...@totally-official.com> a écrit dans le
message : ag1649$hrn5m$1...@ID-103223.news.dfncis.de...
[...]
>
> "You better had" is unusual in British English, but it's used when
> the stress is required on the "had" instead of the "better". Stress
> on the "better" lends itself to threatening contexts:
>
> "I'm going to call you a doctor"
> "You better had."
>
> "I'm going to call you 'Sir' in future"
> "You'd better." -- and that's "had", not "should" or "would".
>
Thanks, Matti!
Your examples make the nuance perfectly clear.
Isabelle Cecchini
Isabelle Cecchini
Michael J Hardy <mjh...@mit.edu> a écrit dans le message :
3d2497d6$0$3931$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
> Earlier I (mjh...@mit.edu) wrote:
>
> > I suspect "you had better" is a corruption of "you would better."
>
>
> Can anyone offer any informed comments on my speculation?
>
The story of 'had better' is long and complicated.
Here is what I understood from reading the OED:
In Old English, the structure was something like "me, you, him, us,...
were better", in which 'me', 'you', etc., are in the dative case, and
'were' is, I guess, a subjunctive preterite. So, the meaning was: "It
would be better for me, you, etc..."
Then, the dative case was abandoned in favour of the nominative, and
the structure " I, you, he, ... were better" appeared.
Finally, that structure was abandoned, and became, 'I, ... had
better", in which 'had', says the OED is a past subjunctive, with the
sense "he (I, etc.) would hold or find it better or preferable", and
'better' began to be felt as an adverb rather than an adjective.
Isabelle Cecchini
jann...@gmail.com
Phil Hobbs
> You better had is dialect, common in the American south. It is
> emphatic, and deliberately informal.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Peter T. Daniels
Hello
In the series _Doctors_, which I have been watching on BBC Prime, I
heard the following exchange:
(Character B has just hurt herself. Character A is worried.)
A: --I'm calling a doctor.
B: --Yeah, I think you better had.
That prompts my question: would there have been any difference in
meaning, emphasis or anything else if B had said "I think you'd (or
had) better"?
Isabelle Cecchini
Phil Hobbs
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Steve Hayes
> You better had is dialect, common in the American south. It is emphatic,
> and deliberately informal.
all be in their 60s now).
--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com