"This Thursday" versus/vs. "Next Thursday".

[Ant]

Hello.

Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
this coming Thursday?

Thank you in advance. :)
--
Quote of the Week: "Are you slower than an ant?" --Sai Yuk from The Legend of Fong Sai Yuk movie (English subtitles)
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail. If crediting,
( ) then please kindly use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.

[John Varela]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 00:26:26 UTC, ANT...@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:

> Hello.
>
> Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
> this coming Thursday?
>
> Thank you in advance. :)

I used to believe that "next Thursday" was the next one to occur,
whether in this or next week. After one unfortunate incident I
learned that some people think that "next Thursday" is always next
week, even if today is Monday. So now I avoid saying "next Thursday"
and instead say either "this coming Thursday" (or even "Thursday
three days from now"), or "Thursday of next week", whichever I
intend.

--
John Varela

[Duggy]

On Dec 21, 10:26 am, ANT...@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
> Hello.
>
> Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
> this coming Thursday?
>
> Thank you in advance. :)

Depends on your country and generation.

===
= DUG.
===

[Peter Brooks]

I think it's easier than that: 'This Thursday' is the one this week.
'Next Thursday' is either the same one or the one next week depending
on whether it's before Thursday today or after it.

[DavidW]

I don't think it's quite that simple. If it were Wednesday and someone said
"next Thursday", more often than not it would mean Thursday next week (AuE).

I have a relative who grew up in Au with AuE but has lived in New Zealand for
many years. She says the locals there have a different meaning for (I think)
"next <day_name>" that she finds confusing. I don't remember what it was, but
maybe an NZ reader can explain how it works there.

[abzorba]

On Dec 21, 11:26 am, ANT...@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
> Hello.
>
> Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
> this coming Thursday?
>

This would not matter so much except for the fact that lives could be
lost, world wars could begin, and appointments missed because of what
is essentially a stupid rule. I might write like Byron, and think like
Goethe, but I am essentially a simple knuckle-dragging man. And to me,
"next" means just that, "next", that is, the one to come. To have it
mean the one immediately AFTER the one to come, is a form of
linguistic perversion that is far worse than tricycle-seat sniffing.

Let us erradicate the last vestige of this idiocy. If this is
Wednesday, and I say "next Thursday", I mean the Thursday that is
tomorrow. What if one said today that he would repay his debt to you
"next year"? Would you be happy to know he meant 2013? No, you would
not.

Myles (Wondering what the next contributor will say, if there is
one...) Paulsen

[Peter Brooks]

That's a perfectly reasonable point of view on the matter. It's not,
of course, the only one. If we could only refer to times in the future
this way, we'd be in trouble very often.

Fortunately, there's a wonderful scheme that some people use to avoid
this sort of ambiguity - they use a thing called a calendar and the
notion of 'dates' ( not the things that come from palms).

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:26:26 -0600, ANT...@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:

>Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
>this coming Thursday?

"Next Thursday" could mean either, depending on context.

When speaking, one can make the difference clear by lengthening the "e" in
"next" and saying it on a high but falling tone -- "neeeeeext Thursday".

But in this neck of the woods many people clarify it by saying "Thursday next
of next week".

That is unambigious to both parties who are familiar with the expression.

And others say "Thursday week", which is shorter, and just as unambigious.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[abzorba]

> notion of 'dates' ( not the things that come from palms).-

If they are not associated with palms, then are they the delightful
"crazy dates", as coined by Ray Slaven in Oz?

myles ( to wit: crazy date - crazy date - crazy date - battered sav -
boys, I'm home...) paulsen

[R H Draney]

abzorba filted:

>
>On Dec 21, 3:45=A0pm, Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Fortunately, there's a wonderful scheme that some people use to avoid
>> this sort of ambiguity - they use a thing called a calendar and the
>> notion of 'dates' ( not the things that come from palms).-
>
>If they are not associated with palms, then are they the delightful
>"crazy dates", as coined by Ray Slaven in Oz?

If you visit Indio, in the desert of southeastern California, there are places
you can go that will make a date shake....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Stan Brown]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:26:26 -0600, Ant wrote:
>
> Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday
> instead of this coming Thursday?

By me it is, but not everyone uses this idiom in the same way.

You may also hear "this coming Thursday", which I *think* everyone
understands as the Thursday that occurs within the six days that
follow today.

--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com

[John Dunlop]

Steve Hayes:

> And others say "Thursday week", which is shorter, and just as unambigious.

I don't think those who use "week" in that way all mean the same thing.
Said today, "Tuesday week" would mean Tuesday next week to some, a week
after the coming Tuesday to others.

--
John

[Peter Brooks]

On Dec 21, 11:37 am, r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote:

> abzorba <myles...@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> >"next" means just that, "next", that is, the one to come. To have it
>

>   »Next« is the one following »this«.
>
>   We have no problems with »this week« versus »next week«,
>   because we always are in a specific week, that is, »this
>   week«. So, the »next week« is the one after this.
>
>   But we are not always on a thursday. So, when it is not
>   thursday, »this« in »this thursday« cannot have the sense of
>   »this« in »this week«. So, it is take to be »next thursday«
>   (»next thursday« in your terminology). (This is not obvious,
>   since it also might be take to mean »the nearest thursday«,,
>   which could be »yesterday« on friday.)
>
>   But when, »this thursday« means »next thursday« (»next
>   thrusday« in your terminology), then »next thursday« becomes
>   free to mean something else. So, some use it for the
>   thursday after »this thursday«.
>
>   Therefore, I deem such expressions to be sub-standard,
>   because the speaker exhibits is ignorance of their
>   ambiguity. I suggest not to use them actively and to ask for
>   the precise date, when one needs to understand them.
>
I like that description - very good..Sub-standard, maybe. Sometimes it
might be an advantage - I'll call you to confirm the deadline next
Thursday can leave a convenient extra week... Ambiguity isn't always
unhelpful.

[Mike Barnes]

DavidW <n...@email.provided>:

>Peter Brooks wrote:
>> On Dec 21, 3:17 am, "John Varela" <newla...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 00:26:26 UTC, ANT...@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
>>>> Hello.
>>>
>>>> Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday
>>>> instead of this coming Thursday?
>>>
>>>> Thank you in advance. :)
>>>
>>> I used to believe that "next Thursday" was the next one to occur,
>>> whether in this or next week. After one unfortunate incident I
>>> learned that some people think that "next Thursday" is always next
>>> week, even if today is Monday. So now I avoid saying "next Thursday"
>>> and instead say either "this coming Thursday" (or even "Thursday
>>> three days from now"), or "Thursday of next week", whichever I
>>> intend.
>>>
>> I think it's easier than that: 'This Thursday' is the one this week.
>> 'Next Thursday' is either the same one or the one next week depending
>> on whether it's before Thursday today or after it.
>
>I don't think it's quite that simple. If it were Wednesday and someone said
>"next Thursday", more often than not it would mean Thursday next week (AuE).

I (BrE) would go further than that. It's Wednesday 21st. Next Thursday,
here, is the 29th. The 22nd isn't "next Thursday", it's "tomorrow".

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[Steve Hayes]

I've never met anyone who would think it had the former meaning, but I suppose
it's possible.

[Django Cat]

Ant wrote:

> Hello.
>
> Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead
> of this coming Thursday?
>

It is by me. My wife insists if you say 'next Thursday' on a Tuesday,
it refers to the one only two days in the future. This has caused some
confusion down the years....


DC

--

[John Varela]

I think that's what I just said I used to believe, but when one
Monday I ordered some birthday pastries to pick up "next Thursday",
on arrival at the pastry shop I found my order would be ready in
seven days. So I haven't used that term for twenty years.

--
John Varela

[John Varela]

Since it's obvious that "next [day of the week]" means different
things to different people, the obvious solution is to disambiguate
and not use that form.

--
John Varela

[David Dyer-Bennet]

ANT...@zimage.com (Ant) writes:

> Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
> this coming Thursday?

People don't seem to agree on this one.

One argument is that the distinction is between "this Thursday" and
"next Thursday". In that case, "next Thursday" must mean the one next
week.

I've also heard people argue that it's obviously absurd for "next
Thusday" not to mean the next Thursday to come along.

--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

[David Dyer-Bennet]

So, since today is Wednesday, what do you mean when you say "thus
Thursday"?

[navi]

On Dec 21, 2:17 pm, David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:

> abzorba <myles...@yahoo.com.au> writes:
> > On Dec 21, 11:26 am, ANT...@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
> >> Hello.
>
> >> Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
> >> this coming Thursday?
>
> > This would not matter so much except for the fact that lives could be
> > lost, world wars could begin, and appointments missed because of what
> > is essentially a stupid rule. I might write like Byron, and think like
> > Goethe, but I am essentially a simple knuckle-dragging man. And to me,
> > "next" means just that, "next", that is, the one to come. To have it
> > mean the one immediately AFTER the one to come, is a form of
> > linguistic perversion that is far worse than tricycle-seat sniffing.
>
> > Let us erradicate the last vestige of this idiocy. If this is
> > Wednesday, and I say "next Thursday", I mean the Thursday that is
> > tomorrow. What if one said today that he would repay his debt to you
> > "next year"? Would you be happy to know he meant 2013? No, you  would
> > not.
>
> So, since today is Wednesday, what do you mean when you say "thus
> Thursday"?
> --

> David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net;http://dd-b.net/

> Snapshots:http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
> Photos:http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/

> Dragaera:http://dragaera.info- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

And if today was Saturday, would "this Thursday" and "next Thursday"
mean the same?!
The best way to disambiguate is to wait till it is Saturday!
Context is everything. If the sentence is ambiguous, just change the
context and the meaning will become clear.

[Stan Brown]

I remember as a young child reading /Alice/ for the first time, and
being puzzled by her musing over saving her punishments "for
Wednesday week". I thought that meant that each week carried the
name of one of the days of the week in America, so that "Wednesday
week" was seven days all labeled Wednesday.

Of course I know now that "Wednesday week" meant "a week from
Wednesday", but there was so much *deliberate* nonsense in /Alice/
that I thought "Wednesday week" was just more of it.

[R H Draney]

John Dunlop filted:

Does "Tuesday week" always mean the same thing as "a week Tuesday", and if not,
what are the conditions under which it does?...r

[DavidW]

In AuE it always means a week after the nearest Tuesday to come. There's never
any ambiguity.

[Pierre Jelenc]

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>
> One argument is that the distinction is between "this Thursday" and
> "next Thursday". In that case, "next Thursday" must mean the one next
> week.

That's why "Thursday week" is better, instead of "next Thursday". It's an
odd phrase, but it is unambiguous. Even though it is not common in (NYC)
standard American, everybody seems to understand it.

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

[abzorba]

On Dec 21, 3:45 pm, Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Fortunately, there's a wonderful scheme that some people use to avoid
> this sort of ambiguity - they use a thing called a calendar and the
> notion of 'dates' ( not the things that come from palms).

Not sure what you mean here. I don't have dates on my palms, just a
lot of hair.

Myles (When I applaud, it's only one clap coz they stick together like
velcro) paulsen

[Peter Brooks]

On Dec 22, 5:04 am, abzorba <myles...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On Dec 21, 3:45 pm, Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Fortunately, there's a wonderful scheme that some people use to avoid
> > this sort of ambiguity - they use a thing called a calendar and the
> > notion of 'dates' ( not the things that come from palms).
>
> Not sure what you mean here. I don't have dates on my palms, just a
> lot of hair.
>

You're luck that you've had no palm vandals then and particularly
lucky to have Pilosus Palma in your garden.

[Peter Brooks]

On Dec 22, 12:17 am, David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
>
> So, since today is Wednesday, what do you mean when you say "thus
> Thursday"?
>

'Thus Thursday' is the terminating replacement for QED in a written
proof of the true etymology of Thursday, or, alternatively, the
epochistic description of that period of evolution.

[Peter Moylan]

Ant wrote:
> Hello.
>
> Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
> this coming Thursday?

We've discussed this many times in this newsgroup. The conclusion seems
to be that it means different things to different people. That means
that it's ambiguous and best avoided.

To avoid ambiguity, say "this coming Thursday" for the first Thursday to
arrive, and "Thursday week" for the one after that.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Mike Barnes]

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>:

>ANT...@zimage.com (Ant) writes:
>
>> Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
>> this coming Thursday?
>
>People don't seem to agree on this one.
>
>One argument is that the distinction is between "this Thursday" and
>"next Thursday". In that case, "next Thursday" must mean the one next
>week.

That's what's meant here.

>I've also heard people argue that it's obviously absurd for "next
>Thusday" not to mean the next Thursday to come along.

Our language has greater absurdities than that. What's important is that
people understand each other on this issue, and my impression is that by
and large they do.

[navi]

I know what "Tuesday week" means, but what does "a week Tuesday" mean?
I had never heard that before.

[Ian Noble]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:26:26 -0600, ANT...@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:

>Hello.

>
>Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
>this coming Thursday?
>

It's not well-defined, and its meaning depends on the speaker. You'd
be ill-advised to rely on your own interpretation, if it was anything
that mattered.

Personally, I'm fairly confident that I only ever use the "next"
construction to refer to the next instance of the day, and then only
when the day is question is still several days away. If I want to
refer (as per your example) to next week's Thursday, I'd probably say
"Thursday next week". And as an experiment just now (Thursday
morning), I asked my wife, without explaining why, "What are we doing
next Saturday?" Her reply was, "This coming Saturday? Gen's coming
round". Gen is my daughter, who will be coming in two days time to
spend Christmas with us.

Come to that, I should point out that your phrase "next week's
(whatever)" is itself not entirely well-defined. On a Tuesday, for
example, which day is "next week's Sunday"? There's no universal
cultural agreement as to the first day of the week. (ISO 8601 defines
it for technical purposes as Monday, but that undoubtedly doesn't cut
the mustard with the general populace).

Cheers - Ian
(BrE: Yorks., Hants.)

[John Dunlop]

R H Draney:

> [John Dunlop:]

>
>> I don't think those who use "week" in that way all mean the same thing.
>> Said today, "Tuesday week" would mean Tuesday next week to some, a week
>> after the coming Tuesday to others.
>
> Does "Tuesday week" always mean the same thing as "a week Tuesday", and
> if not, what are the conditions under which it does?...r

I'm not the best person to answer, because I don't actually use "Tuesday
week" - or "a week Tuesday", for that matter, which would have to be "a
week on/from Tuesday". Is it days considered to be earlier in the week
that cause ambiguity? "Saturday week", said today (Thurs.), would seem to
mean the same to everyone, the same as "a week on Saturday". But "Tuesday
week" can refer to Tuesday next week or the Tuesday after that. Maybe
everyone follows the dictionary definition of seven days after the day
with that name, but they differ in which day of that name they start from.

--
John

[John Holmes]

John Varela wrote:
>
> I think that's what I just said I used to believe, but when one
> Monday I ordered some birthday pastries to pick up "next Thursday",
> on arrival at the pastry shop I found my order would be ready in
> seven days. So I haven't used that term for twenty years.

I would have ordered them on Monday to be picked up "on Thursday". The
Thursday of the same week is the obvious one that I would mean.

When you add "next", people think you must have meant something other than
that.

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 18:15:05 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> Ant wrote:
> > Hello.
> >
> > Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
> > this coming Thursday?
>
> We've discussed this many times in this newsgroup. The conclusion seems
> to be that it means different things to different people. That means
> that it's ambiguous and best avoided.
>
> To avoid ambiguity, say "this coming Thursday" for the first Thursday to
> arrive, and "Thursday week" for the one after that.

Or "Thursday the 22nd" and "Thursday the 29th".

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Got it, thanks!

(Dratted fingers hitting wrong keys!)

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Ian Noble <ipn...@killspam.o2.co.uk> writes:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:26:26 -0600, ANT...@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
>
>>Hello.
>>
>>Isn't saying "next Thursday" considered next week's Thursday instead of
>>this coming Thursday?
>>
>
> It's not well-defined, and its meaning depends on the speaker. You'd
> be ill-advised to rely on your own interpretation, if it was anything
> that mattered.
>
> Personally, I'm fairly confident that I only ever use the "next"
> construction to refer to the next instance of the day, and then only
> when the day is question is still several days away. If I want to
> refer (as per your example) to next week's Thursday, I'd probably say
> "Thursday next week". And as an experiment just now (Thursday
> morning), I asked my wife, without explaining why, "What are we doing
> next Saturday?" Her reply was, "This coming Saturday? Gen's coming
> round". Gen is my daughter, who will be coming in two days time to
> spend Christmas with us.

I'm pretty confident "next Thursday" is a week from now. Yesterday, I
suspect quite a few people would feel the need to disambiguate (as your
wife apparently did).

> Come to that, I should point out that your phrase "next week's
> (whatever)" is itself not entirely well-defined. On a Tuesday, for
> example, which day is "next week's Sunday"? There's no universal
> cultural agreement as to the first day of the week. (ISO 8601 defines
> it for technical purposes as Monday, but that undoubtedly doesn't cut
> the mustard with the general populace).

Nearly all calendars I've seen begin the week on Sunday. I begin "my"
week on Monday, though, and consider the "weekend" (Saturday and Sunday)
to be the end of the week.

[Nick Spalding]

David Dyer-Bennet wrote, in <ylfkfwgc...@dd-b.net>
on Thu, 22 Dec 2011 09:47:49 -0600:

This is a pondian thing. US calendars start on Sunday; UK, Ireland
and I think European ones in general start on Monday. Windows knows
about this, it shows the calendar according to where you have told it
you are.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[DavidW]

Same thing.

[Peter Moylan]

Ian Noble wrote:

> Come to that, I should point out that your phrase "next week's
> (whatever)" is itself not entirely well-defined. On a Tuesday, for
> example, which day is "next week's Sunday"? There's no universal
> cultural agreement as to the first day of the week. (ISO 8601 defines
> it for technical purposes as Monday, but that undoubtedly doesn't cut
> the mustard with the general populace).

I've never been comfortable with "cut the mustard", although I see that
it has a respectable pedigree. I prefer "pass muster".

The AUE web site is also gaining respect. "Yahoo answers" on this
subject has a direct copy-and-paste, without attribution, from the AUE
site. Unfortunately you need a Windows computer to report plagiarism on
Yahoo.

[Snidely]

rc...@panix.com (Pierre Jelenc) scribbled something like ...

> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>>
>> One argument is that the distinction is between "this Thursday" and
>> "next Thursday". In that case, "next Thursday" must mean the one
>> next week.
>
> That's why "Thursday week" is better, instead of "next Thursday". It's
> an odd phrase, but it is unambiguous. Even though it is not common in
> (NYC) standard American, everybody seems to understand it.

I'll finish my reply a week from Thursday.

/dps

[Snidely]

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> scribbled something like ...

> Nearly all calendars I've seen begin the week on Sunday. I begin "my"
> week on Monday, though, and consider the "weekend" (Saturday and Sunday)
> to be the end of the week.

Your view is consistent with the "end == finish" view, and even in the US
lots of "business" calendars have that format.

The standard US calendar treats a week as having 2 ends, just like a
shoelace does.

Both are logical within their viewpoints.

/dps

[Leslie Danks]

Austrian calendars start the week on Monday (if anyone wants to know; and
even if they don't).

--
Les
(BrE)

[Snidely]

"John Varela" <newl...@verizon.net> scribbled something like ...

> I think that's what I just said I used to believe, but when one
> Monday I ordered some birthday pastries to pick up "next Thursday",
> on arrival at the pastry shop I found my order would be ready in
> seven days. So I haven't used that term for twenty years.
>

I sometimes have trouble spotting 2 events as being on the same day, when I
think of one of them being Thursday and the other on the 29th. I don't
seem to have a similar disconnect in other contexts, such "downstairs" vs
"in the lab" (for a previous environment).

/dps

[Steve Hayes]

I wonder when UK calendars decided to conform to the Austrian standard, or is
it an EU thing?


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 02:37:14 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>
wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 00:49:55 +0100, Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
>
>>Snidely wrote:
>>
>>> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> scribbled something like ...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Nearly all calendars I've seen begin the week on Sunday. I begin "my"
>>>> week on Monday, though, and consider the "weekend" (Saturday and Sunday)
>>>> to be the end of the week.
>>>
>>> Your view is consistent with the "end == finish" view, and even in the US
>>> lots of "business" calendars have that format.
>>>
>>> The standard US calendar treats a week as having 2 ends, just like a
>>> shoelace does.
>>>
>>> Both are logical within their viewpoints.
>>
>>Austrian calendars start the week on Monday (if anyone wants to know; and
>>even if they don't).
>
>I wonder when UK calendars decided to conform to the Austrian standard, or is
>it an EU thing?

It possibly has to do with calendar and diary makers increasingly
selling products in various countries and choosing a single standard.

I've just looked at some old (UK) pocket diaries from the 1950s/60s. In
all of them the calendar pages show weeks starting on Sunday, but the
diary pages, two pages per week, vary. Some show the week from Sunday to
Saturday, others from Monday to Sunday. The variation is by publisher.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Mike Barnes]

"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <ma...@peterduncanson.net>:

>On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 02:37:14 +0200, Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 00:49:55 +0100, Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Austrian calendars start the week on Monday (if anyone wants to know; and
>>>even if they don't).
>>
>>I wonder when UK calendars decided to conform to the Austrian standard, or is
>>it an EU thing?
>
>It possibly has to do with calendar and diary makers increasingly
>selling products in various countries and choosing a single standard.

Product sharing between the UK and the continent seems unlikely because
of language variation. However product sharing between the UK and the US
might explain the Sunday-Saturday calendars found in the UK nowadays.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

There seems to be a difference between calendars and diaries produced
for business and non-business use.

On the business side, there are companies such as Time/system which
produce Filofax-style organisers. Time/system is a international
company.
http://www.timesystem.com/

The format of the pages seems to be standardised in Europe even though
the language of the text varies.

A5-size weekly plan pages -
Austria:
http://web1160.timesystem3.rockenstein.de/shared/business-weekly-plan.png
UK:
http://www.timesystem.co.uk/shared/design/business-weekly-plan.png
Germany:
http://www.timesystem.de/shared/business-weekly-plan.png
France:
http://www.timesystem.fr/shared/business-weekly-plan.png

The page layout seems to be different in the US version, but the weeks
also start on Monday:
http://www.timesystem.us/v/vspfiles/V4_Backup/refill_samples_A5.htm

On the other hand, the non-business wall calendar in my kitchen is from
a company based ion the US and starts the weeks on a Sunday.
http://www.browntrout.com/calendars/product.asp?MGID=1243&IID=11861

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <ccslf7dkpf6j1gotv...@4ax.com>,

Peter Duncanson (BrE) <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>I've just looked at some old (UK) pocket diaries from the 1950s/60s. In
>all of them the calendar pages show weeks starting on Sunday, but the
>diary pages, two pages per week, vary. Some show the week from Sunday to
>Saturday, others from Monday to Sunday. The variation is by publisher.

For (business) diaries here it is very common for Saturday and Sunday
to be combined on a single page, with other days of the week given a
full page.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 20:11:39 +0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <ccslf7dkpf6j1gotv...@4ax.com>,
>Peter Duncanson (BrE) <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>>I've just looked at some old (UK) pocket diaries from the 1950s/60s. In
>>all of them the calendar pages show weeks starting on Sunday, but the
>>diary pages, two pages per week, vary. Some show the week from Sunday to
>>Saturday, others from Monday to Sunday. The variation is by publisher.
>
>For (business) diaries here it is very common for Saturday and Sunday
>to be combined on a single page, with other days of the week given a
>full page.
>

Yes. That is common here for a six page per week layout.

>-GAWollman

[Walter P. Zähl]

From this Thursday or from next Thursday?

/Walter

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:58:31 +0000, Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com>
wrote:

The first time I encountered a pocket diary (agenda) with the week beginning
on Monday was in the Netherlands in 1966.

In the same year, 1966, when I began working for London Transport, I needed an
appointment diary to write down the starting time of my daily shifts, and the
only one available in the shops was a Letts Schoolgirls Diary, which, like
ewvery other diary I had seen up till that time, began the week on Sunday.

Until that time all the appointment diaries I had ever used, whether published
and printed in the UK or South Africa, began the week on Sunday. Over the last
20 years or so it has become increasingly difficult to find ones that begin
the week on Sunday, as both South Africa and the UK appear to have switched to
the Netherlands/Austria practice.

As I've got older my eyes have got worse, and some diaries print the day names
very faintly, so I have sometimes written appointments on the wrong day of the
week because of this innovation, and innovation it is, for English-speaking
(as opposed to Dutch and German-speaking) countries. I'm just wondering when
it was introduced and why.

[Peter Brooks]

On Dec 29, 5:33 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:58:31 +0000, Mike Barnes <mikebar...@bluebottle.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>:
> >>On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 02:37:14 +0200, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net>
> >>wrote:

Mightn't it be a reflection of the secularisation and extension of the
weekend? It used to be the case that many, if not most, people worked
on Saturdays, then, last century, it became almost a norm, in Europe,
for a weekend to consist of two days, not just Sunday ( with, maybe,
early closing on Saturday ). This might have led to it seeming
unnatural to split a weekend between two separate weeks. Which, in
turn, would lead to putting the Monday as the start of the week, with
Saturday and Sunday comprising the previous weekend.

Now the process has gone full circle, with the shops being open
( along with support businesses ) on both Saturdays and Sundays.

[Stan Brown]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:04:53 +0000, Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>
> I've just looked at some old (UK) pocket diaries from the 1950s/60s. In
> all of them the calendar pages show weeks starting on Sunday, but the
> diary pages, two pages per week, vary. Some show the week from Sunday to
> Saturday, others from Monday to Sunday. The variation is by publisher.

Both my 2011 DayMinder Weekly Planner and my 2012/2013 At-A-Glance
have the week starting on Monday, though I think most of my
compatriots think that the week starts on Sunday.

Every calendar I've ever seen does indeed have the week starting on
Sunday.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <MPG.2966dc0e8...@news.individual.net>,

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>Every calendar I've ever seen does indeed have the week starting on
>Sunday.

And very likely running from left to right across the page.

A German FreeBSD contributor thought that this was nonstandard and
attempted to replace the "cal" program with one that displayed the
weeks vertically. To his surprise, he found that what he thought of
as "standard" was in fact almost totally unknown in the
English-speaking world.

(Example for those who don't quite see the difference:

Normal way:

December 2011
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30 31

German way:

Dezember 2011
Mo 5 12 19 26
Di 6 13 20 27
Mi 7 14 21 28
Do 1 8 15 22 29
Fr 2 9 16 23 30
Sa 3 10 17 24 31
So 4 11 18 25

Apparently this is related to their use of week numbers, something
else which is rarely seen in the English-speaking world. I see it
more often when examining the date codes on certain brands of hard
drive, which should give you some idea of how frequently I run into
week numbers[1].)

-GAWollman

[1] The NFL's practice of numbering the weeks in the football season
is not comparable.

[R H Draney]

Garrett Wollman filted:

>
>In article <MPG.2966dc0e8...@news.individual.net>,
>Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>>Every calendar I've ever seen does indeed have the week starting on
>>Sunday.
>
>And very likely running from left to right across the page.
>
>A German FreeBSD contributor thought that this was nonstandard and
>attempted to replace the "cal" program with one that displayed the
>weeks vertically. To his surprise, he found that what he thought of
>as "standard" was in fact almost totally unknown in the
>English-speaking world.

A German would assume the week to start with Sunday, if "Mittwoch" for Wednesday
is to make any sort of sense....

Checking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekday_names#Numbered_weekdays, we see
that the following languages number the days of the week with the assumption
that Sunday is first:

Icelandic, Hebrew, Ecclesiastical Latin, Portuguese, Greek, Armenian,
Vietnamese, Malay, Arabic, Maltese, Indonesian, Javanese, Sundanese, Persian,
Turkish, Old Turkic and Navajo,

While these assume that the week begins with Monday:

Russian, Belarussian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Polish, Slovak, Czech, Slovene,
Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Hungarian, Estonian,
Chinese, Mongolian and Tibetan.

Swahili numbers the days of the week from Saturday, and Basque appears to start
with Thursday....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Steve Hayes]

All those were in Second World countries, so clearly it was all part of a
commie plot.

Brumaire, anyone?

In Namibia, shortly before it became independent, there were numerous corny
jokes about the country shifting to an eight-day week on independence, with
Samstag being followed by Untag, due to the ubiquity of the United Nations
Transitional Assistance Group.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <jdjhi...@drn.newsguy.com>,

R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:

>A German would assume the week to start with Sunday, if "Mittwoch"
>for Wednesday is to make any sort of sense....

I'm sure that there's a Standard that says otherwise. Germans like
Standards.

-GAWollman

[Peter Brooks]

On Dec 30, 7:17 am, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Garrett Wollman filted:
>
>
>

> >In article <MPG.2966dc0e863575bc98d...@news.individual.net>,

> >Stan Brown  <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> >>Every calendar I've ever seen does indeed have the week starting on
> >>Sunday.
>
> >And very likely running from left to right across the page.
>
> >A German FreeBSD contributor thought that this was nonstandard and
> >attempted to replace the "cal" program with one that displayed the
> >weeks vertically.  To his surprise, he found that what he thought of
> >as "standard" was in fact almost totally unknown in the
> >English-speaking world.
>
> A German would assume the week to start with Sunday, if "Mittwoch" for Wednesday
> is to make any sort of sense....
>

As does the English word mid-week, it seems:
"
mid-week

[f. mid a. + week. Cf. MDu. middeweke, MHG. mittwoche (mod.G.
Mittwoch), ON. miðvika, Wednesday.]

The middle of the week. In Quaker language, a synonym for Fourth-day
or Wednesday.
" [OED]

[R H Draney]

Peter Brooks filted:
>
>On Dec 30, 7:17=A0am, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>> A German would assume the week to start with Sunday, if "Mittwoch" for We=

>dnesday
>> is to make any sort of sense....
>>
>As does the English word mid-week, it seems:
>"
>mid-week
>
>[f. mid a. + week. Cf. MDu. middeweke, MHG. mittwoche (mod.G.

>Mittwoch), ON. mi=F0vika, Wednesday.]

>
>The middle of the week. In Quaker language, a synonym for Fourth-day
>or Wednesday.
>" [OED]

"How come Wednesday is called 'hump day' when most people get laid on the
weekend?"
-- George Carlin

[John Holmes]

And we might as well add a footnote to this thread that "this Friday" meant
nothing at all in Samoa this week:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-30/samoa-skips-friday-in-time-zone-change/3753350

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[David Dyer-Bennet]

R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> writes:

> A German would assume the week to start with Sunday, if "Mittwoch" for Wednesday
> is to make any sort of sense....

Ah, yes, the reliable logic of language! (Even German.)

> Checking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekday_names#Numbered_weekdays, we see
> that the following languages number the days of the week with the assumption
> that Sunday is first:

The concept that weekdays have consistent numbers actually rather
croggles me. But given that they do in some languages, I'm NOT
surprised that they vary.

[Steve Hayes]

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 11:49:42 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:

>R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> writes:
>
>> A German would assume the week to start with Sunday, if "Mittwoch" for Wednesday
>> is to make any sort of sense....
>
>Ah, yes, the reliable logic of language! (Even German.)
>
>> Checking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekday_names#Numbered_weekdays, we see
>> that the following languages number the days of the week with the assumption
>> that Sunday is first:
>
>The concept that weekdays have consistent numbers actually rather
>croggles me. But given that they do in some languages, I'm NOT
>surprised that they vary.

They presumably also vary between tho0se who begin with 0 and those who begin
with 1.

[R H Draney]

David Dyer-Bennet filted:

>
>R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> writes:
>
>> Checking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekday_names#Numbered_weekdays, we see
>> that the following languages number the days of the week with the assumption
>> that Sunday is first:
>
>The concept that weekdays have consistent numbers actually rather
>croggles me. But given that they do in some languages, I'm NOT
>surprised that they vary.

I was looking for a culture, any culture, that used numbers to name the days of
the week (Japanese does this consistently with months of the year; the ancient
Romans made a half-hearted stab at the same)...figured that would provide a clue
to what the natural starting point should be....

Instead I learned that there are a dozen or more countries who think that
another dozen or more countries count the days "two, three, four...seven, one",
while the second dozen think that the first dozen count them "seven, one,
two...five, six".

[Skitt]

R H Draney wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet filted:

>> R H Draney writes:

>>> Checking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekday_names#Numbered_weekdays, we see
>>> that the following languages number the days of the week with the assumption
>>> that Sunday is first:
>>
>> The concept that weekdays have consistent numbers actually rather
>> croggles me. But given that they do in some languages, I'm NOT
>> surprised that they vary.
>
> I was looking for a culture, any culture, that used numbers to name the days of
> the week (Japanese does this consistently with months of the year; the ancient
> Romans made a half-hearted stab at the same)...figured that would provide a clue
> to what the natural starting point should be....
>
> Instead I learned that there are a dozen or more countries who think that
> another dozen or more countries count the days "two, three, four...seven, one",
> while the second dozen think that the first dozen count them "seven, one,
> two...five, six".

Latvian language names for days of the week are numerical, except for
Sunday. The name for Monday translates to "firstday".

--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt

[Mike Barnes]

Garrett Wollman <wol...@bimajority.org>:

I don't see the connection between orientation and week numbers. It's as
easy to number rows as columns. Incidentally I've come across week
numbers quite a lot in UK manufacturing, and I wonder what US companies
use instead (week starting date? Sunday or Monday?).

The vertical calendar style has a different but clear advantage. It's
easy to cut off a week when it has passed, so there's a minimum three-
week horizon. I discovered that after seeing an English vertical
calendar with perforations between the weeks.

Nowadays I print my own: http://thedowerhouse.com/calendar/

[Sproz]

On Dec 30, 7:58 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet filted:
>
>
>

> >R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> writes:
>
> >> Checkinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekday_names#Numbered_weekdays, we see

> >> that the following languages number the days of the week with the assumption
> >> that Sunday is first:
>
> >The concept that weekdays have consistent numbers actually rather
> >croggles me.  But given that they do in some languages, I'm NOT
> >surprised that they vary.
>
> I was looking for a culture, any culture, that used numbers to name the days of
> the week (Japanese does this consistently with months of the year; the ancient
> Romans made a half-hearted stab at the same)...figured that would provide a clue
> to what the natural starting point should be....

Well, the Portuguese language numbers the weekdays, starting with
Monday as two ("Segunda-feira").

Mark

[Snidely]

Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> scribbled something like ...

>Incidentally I've come across week
> numbers quite a lot in UK manufacturing, and I wonder what US companies
> use instead (week starting date? Sunday or Monday?).

Week numbers are sometimes used in the US, but there is disagreement over
how to handle January 01 occuring other than as the beginning of the week.
Most often (I think) Week 01 is the first week WHOLLY in January, but a lot
of people use the week that includes January 01. Firms with a lot of
internationalism may have started following the ISO 8601 rules where Week
01 has the first *Thursday* in January.

I worked for a large company which found it advantageous to switch its
accounting calendar to the 4-4-5 system, so there was often a mismatch
between end of the month in the civil calendar (which, where I was, was the
US civil calendar) and the accounting calendar.

/dps

[Snidely]

Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> scribbled something like ...

> The vertical calendar style has a different but clear advantage. It's
> easy to cut off a week when it has passed, so there's a minimum three-
> week horizon. I discovered that after seeing an English vertical
> calendar with perforations between the weeks.
>
> Nowadays I print my own: http://thedowerhouse.com/calendar/
>

That's interesting, thanks. My previous go-to for printing a calendar,
<http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/custommenu.html>

has a row format, but it is not row-by-weeks.

/dps

[Mike Barnes]

Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>:

>Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> scribbled something like ...
>
>>Incidentally I've come across week
>> numbers quite a lot in UK manufacturing, and I wonder what US companies
>> use instead (week starting date? Sunday or Monday?).
>
>Week numbers are sometimes used in the US, but there is disagreement over
>how to handle January 01 occuring other than as the beginning of the week.
>Most often (I think) Week 01 is the first week WHOLLY in January, but a lot
>of people use the week that includes January 01. Firms with a lot of
>internationalism may have started following the ISO 8601 rules where Week
>01 has the first *Thursday* in January.

... which is another way of specifying the first week MOSTLY in January.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:

> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> writes:
>>I was looking for a culture, any culture, that used numbers to name the days of
>>the week (Japanese does this consistently with months of the year; the ancient
>>Romans made a half-hearted stab at the same)...figured that would provide a clue
>>to what the natural starting point should be....
>

> If you search a natural starting point, you should look in nature,
> cultures will only give you a cultural starting point.
>
> The culture of computer programmers indeed uses numbers to name
> the days of the week.

In my experience during 40 years of computer programming, we don't much
use days of the week; they're something we have to convert to and from
sometimes to interact with humans, but they get little other use. The
internal representation is often an index -- into the table of names we
use to identify them to the humans.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Garrett Wollman wrote nonsense:

>
> Normal way:
>
> December 2011
> Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
> 1 2 3
> 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
> 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
> 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
> 25 26 27 28 29 30 31
>
> German way:
>
> Dezember 2011
> Mo 5 12 19 26
> Di 6 13 20 27
> Mi 7 14 21 28
> Do 1 8 15 22 29
> Fr 2 9 16 23 30
> Sa 3 10 17 24 31
> So 4 11 18 25
>

Like hell is this the "German way"!

Try Google Images ("German calendar") and see that the majority of
German calendars are laid out *horizontally* (the "normal way").

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
I need Facebook's "social network"
like I need a social disease.

[Peter Moylan]

One that used to turn up now and then at our university:

Q: Why doesn't the Arts Faculty have lectures on Wednesdays?
A: Because that would cut into _both_ weekends.

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Peter Brooks]

On Dec 31, 6:39 am, Peter Moylan <inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
wrote:

>
>
> One that used to turn up now and then at our university:
>
> Q: Why doesn't the Arts Faculty have lectures on Wednesdays?
> A: Because that would cut into _both_ weekends.
>

Cape Town is also famous for using midweek as a second weekend - it
has a name too, the 'klein naweek' ( little weekend ).

[Mike Barnes]

David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>:

>r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>
>> R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> writes:
>>>I was looking for a culture, any culture, that used numbers to name
>>>the days of
>>>the week (Japanese does this consistently with months of the year;
>>>the ancient
>>>Romans made a half-hearted stab at the same)...figured that would
>>>provide a clue
>>>to what the natural starting point should be....
>>
>> If you search a natural starting point, you should look in nature,
>> cultures will only give you a cultural starting point.
>>
>> The culture of computer programmers indeed uses numbers to name
>> the days of the week.
>
>In my experience during 40 years of computer programming, we don't much
>use days of the week; they're something we have to convert to and from
>sometimes to interact with humans, but they get little other use.

But there are many equally experienced programmers who do little other
than interact with humans, and for whom days of the week and their
numbers are crucial.

[abzorba]

On Dec 22 2011, 12:03 am, John Dunlop <dunlop.j...@ymail.com> wrote:
> Steve Hayes:
>
> > And others say "Thursday week", which is shorter, and just as unambigious.
>
> I don't think those who use "week" in that way all mean the same thing.
> Said today, "Tuesday week" would mean Tuesday next week to some, a week
> after the coming Tuesday to others.
>
Ahh John, this thread has to do with "Thursday week", not "Tuesday
week". We've got our hands full with Thursday, so I suggest that you
start another thread, or indeed six other threads to accommodate these
other questions.

You aver "there is no difference"? You contradict yourself, becoz if
the question of Tuesday Week were identical to Thursday Week, why
would you abandon the latter example example to adopt the former?

Myles (Occam's razor comes in handy on Thursday week...) Paulsen