Cock and Bull Story
Franklin Cacciutto
If there is perhaps an original "Cock and Bull" story, what is it?
Thanks for the help.
Alex Chernavsky
>What is the origin of the idiomatic expression,
>"a cock and bull story"?
====Begin quote====
I infer from your narrative that you told your students that "cock and bull
story," meaning a preposterous tale, has something to do with a pub named
"The Cock," or perhaps "The Cock and Bull." About the best that can be said
for that story is that it is not absolutely impossible. Far more likely,
however, is that "cock and bull" refers to the tradition of populating
parables with talking animals -- thus, a "cock and bull story" would be a
tale as ludicrous as one of Aesop's fables.
http://www.word-detective.com/back-h2.html
====End quote====
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
John Steele Gordon
>
> What is the origin of the idiomatic expression, "a cock and bull story"?
>
In French, the word for "cock and bull story" is " un coq-à-l'âne,"
literally a "cock to donkey" story.
According to Funk, both terms go back to the 17th century but the exact
origin is unknown.
JSG
Tom Deveson
<JSGGen...@worldnet.att.net> writes
On the High Street in the old Buckinghamshire town of Stony Stratford --
it's mentioned in Shakespeare's *Richard III* -- there are two old inns
called the Cock and the Bull. The High Street is part of the old Watling
Street, the Roman road from London to the North-west. People in the town
will tell you that, in the days of stage-coaches, London travellers
would stay at either inn, that stories would get passed from one inn to
the other, and that the combination of strong ale, narrative rivalry and
provincial credulity would result in London news turning into anecdotes
full of exaggeration and preposterous detail.
One problem with this enjoyable account is that the phrase 'cock-and-
bull story' goes back to c 1700 and the phrase 'story [or tale] of a
cock and bull' goes back nearly a hundred years further, whereas the
golden age of coaching was more like the mid-eighteenth century onwards.
As my brother lives about 150 yards from both inns, it's not difficult
for me to go and speculate over the truth of this derivation over a
quiet drink.
I think that Stony Stratford has some websites with more about this.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Isabelle Cecchini
"John Steele Gordon" <JSGGen...@worldnet.att.net> a écrit dans le
message news: 39A3C759...@worldnet.att.net...
> Franklin Cacciutto wrote:
> >
> > What is the origin of the idiomatic expression, "a cock and bull
> > story"?
> >
> > If there is perhaps an original "Cock and Bull" story, what is it?
>
> In French, the word for "cock and bull story" is " un coq-à-l'âne,"
> literally a "cock to donkey" story.
I am not sure they are exactly equivalent. As far as I understand, a "cock
and bull story" is really a story, albeit an improbable and ridiculous one
(I found that definition in the NODE).
Now in French, if I were to tell you right now about my difficulties with
using Outlook Express (that is just an example, I do not want to start a
thread about that!), you could reproach me with "sauter du coq à l'âne",
hopping from the cock to the donkey. A "coq-à-l'âne" is the introduction
of an unrelated topic in a conversation, and not a specific kind of story.
Does anyone know of a picturesque expression in English to translate it?
A "cock and bull story" translates into French as "une histoire à dormir
debout", a story to sleep over while standing.
Isabelle Cecchini
> According to Funk, both terms go back to the 17th century but the exact
> origin is unknown.
>
> JSG
John Steele Gordon
yours, my sense is that "une histoire à dormir debout" is a boring or
tedious story. That's why you're asleep.
My trusty Harrap's Dictionary agrees with me, sort of. It's first
translation of coq-à-l'âne is "Cock and bull story" and then "desultory
discourse." It says that "Faire des coq-à-l'âne" means to skip from one
subject to another. Sauter would, obviously, do just as well as faire.
It's first translation of cock and bull, however, is "histoire à dormir
debout." It's first translation of "histoire à dormir debout" is "a
boring, tedious tale," and second, "a tall yarn."
I guess it's a draw. Or perhaps French cock and bull stories are always
boring. Doesn't say much for French cock and bull stories :-).
JSG
NOn_cra...@pacbell.net
> >
> > What is the origin of the idiomatic expression, "a cock and bull
> > story"?
>
seen a 'real dog and pony show', I knew it was a cock and bull story!
--
Nick, Retired in the San Fernando Valley www.boonchoo.com
"Giving violent criminals a government guarantee that their intended
victims are defenseless is bad public policy."
- John Ross, "Unintended Consequences"
Rainer Thonnes
"Alex Chernavsky" <al...@astrocyte-design.com> writes:
>
>Far more likely,
>however, is that "cock and bull" refers to the tradition of populating
>parables with talking animals -- thus, a "cock and bull story" would be a
>tale as ludicrous as one of Aesop's fables.
How dare you, Sir! Aesop's fables ludicrous? What a cock and bull story!
Matti Lamprhey
> >
> > I infer from your narrative that you told your students that "cock and
bull
> > story," meaning a preposterous tale, has something to do with a pub
named
> > "The Cock," or perhaps "The Cock and Bull." About the best that can be
said
likely,
> > however, is that "cock and bull" refers to the tradition of populating
> > parables with talking animals -- thus, a "cock and bull story" would be
a
> > tale as ludicrous as one of Aesop's fables.
> >
>
> While I agree that the pub theory is rather unlikely, it is
> remarkably persistent. The village of Stony Stratford, Bucks,
> has two old pubs called The Cock and The Bull almost opposite
> each other on its main street. In one of them, the menu claims
> that the phrase originated from the rivalry between their
> erstwhile landlords who used to make disparaging remarks about
> each other's beer.
If you were opening up a pub opposite an existing one called The Bull, how
would you name it? It's just good 18th-century marketing.
To back up Alex's contribution quoted above, here's Brewer on the subject:
<quote> A cock and bull story. A long, rambling, idle, or incredible yarn;
a canard. There are various so-called explanations of the origin of the
term, but the most likely is that it is connected with the old fables in
which cocks, bulls, and other animals discoursed in human language on things
in general. In Bentley's /Boyle Lecture/ (1692) occurs the passage:--
That cocks and bulls might discourse, and hinds
and panthers hold conference about religion.
The "hind and panther" allusion is an obvious reference to Dryden's poem
(published five years before), and it is possible that the "cocks and bulls"
would have had some meaning that was as well known to contemporaries but has
been long since forgotten.
See also the closing chapter of Sterne's /Tristram Shandy/; the last word
in the book are:--
L---d! said my mother, what is all this story about?
--- A cock and a bull, said Yorick -- And one of the best of its kind, I
ever heard.
The French equivalents are /faire un coq ą l'āne/ and /un conte de ma mčre
l'oie/ (a mother goose tale), and it is worth noting that in Scotland a
satire or lampoon and also a rambling, disconnected story used to be called
a cockalane. </quote>
Matti
paul draper
news:ix5p5.5198$ly4.22111@NewsReader...
> The French equivalents are /faire un coq à l'âne/ and /un conte de ma mère
> l'oie/ (a mother goose tale), and it is worth noting that in Scotland a
> satire or lampoon and also a rambling, disconnected story used to be
called
> a cockalane. </quote>
I've heard of "cockamaney" tales (not sure of the spelling) and I presume
that this is a corruption of "cockalane"?
--
Paul Draper
020 7369 2754
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
>
> While my command of the French language does not, I am sure, approach
> yours, my sense is that "une histoire à dormir debout" is a boring or
> tedious story. That's why you're asleep.
>
> My trusty Harrap's Dictionary agrees with me, sort of. It's first
> translation of coq-à-l'âne is "Cock and bull story" and then "desultory
> discourse." It says that "Faire des coq-à-l'âne" means to skip from one
> subject to another. Sauter would, obviously, do just as well as faire.
>
> It's first translation of cock and bull, however, is "histoire à dormir
> debout." It's first translation of "histoire à dormir debout" is "a
> boring, tedious tale," and second, "a tall yarn."
>
> I guess it's a draw. Or perhaps French cock and bull stories are always
> boring. Doesn't say much for French cock and bull stories :-).
>
> JSG
My own trusty Harrap's gives for "histoire à dormir debout": "a tall
story"; "a cock-and-bull story"; "a cock-eyed story"; it stays
diplomatically silent on the boring aspect of those stories...
For "cock-and-bull story", it gives: "histoire de pure invention"; "conte
à dormir debout"; and, interestingly, "conte bleu". Apparently, some
editions of fairy-tales used to be published with a blue cover. Having
just checked in another dictionary, I think it would be a mistake for me
to translate it by "blue story", as I have got a feeling it might give the
wrong impression...
Isabelle Cecchini
Tom Deveson
draper <pdr...@baig.co.uk> writes
>I've heard of "cockamaney" tales (not sure of the spelling) and I presume
>that this is a corruption of "cockalane"?
Leo Rosten in *Hooray for Yiddish* (1983) gives 'cockamamy' as "a
linguistic gem from the Lower East Side, cherished in Brooklyn, pampered
in the Bronx, and now indispensable to the argot of urban life. I, for
one, have found no pejorative synonym so pungent...I never encountered
'cockamamy' in the Midwest, South, Southwest or California..."
Though Rosten gives it as a 'Yinglish' word, he says he doesn't doubt
its use by Italian, Irish and Slavic kids from NY too. He remembered it
from the 1920s, though Wentworth and Flexner gave a first recorded use
in 1931. Sometimes it's also spelled 'cockamamie' and that's how my
spell-checker would like it.
Rosten gives half a dozen partly overlapping meanings, from 'confused'
via 'fraudulent' to 'cheap'. I'm sure US users can be more accurate than
my London contribution.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Isabelle Depape
John Steele Gordon wrote:
> While my command of the French language does not, I am sure, approach
> yours, my sense is that "une histoire à dormir debout" is a boring or
> tedious story. That's why you're asleep.
I beg to differ. "Une histoire à dormir debout" is an absurd and incredible
story. It may sound boring and tedious to some of those who listen to it but
then it is another story. As far I could gather from various French
dictionaries, the verb "dormir" first meant "rester immobile" ( "to stand
still"). IMHO, that's what you do when you're listening to an enthralling
story...
> My trusty Harrap's Dictionary agrees with me, sort of. It's first
> translation of coq-à-l'âne is "Cock and bull story" and then "desultory
> discourse." It says that "Faire des coq-à-l'âne" means to skip from one
> subject to another. Sauter would, obviously, do just as well as faire.
Which Harrap's Dictionary is it ? My Harrap's English-French Standard Dictionary
gives the following translation for "cock-and-bull story" : "histoire de pure
invention, conte à dormir debout, conte bleu". According to My Harrap's New
Shorter French-English Dictionary "un conte à dormir debout" is "a tall story, a
cock-and-bull story". Its translation of "sauter (passer) (faire) du coq à
l'âne" is "to skip from one subject to another". Although I agree you can skip
from one subject to another while telling a cock-and-bull story, I'm not sure
that "cock-and-bull" has anything to do with "coq-à-l'âne".
> It's first translation of cock and bull, however, is "histoire à dormir
> debout." It's first translation of "histoire à dormir debout" is "a
> boring, tedious tale," and second, "a tall yarn."
As far as it doesn't write "a tall yawn"...
Isabelle
Lee Rudolph
>As far I could gather from various French
>dictionaries, the verb "dormir" first meant "rester immobile" ( "to stand
>still").
That is hard for me to believe. Jacqueline Picoche's _Dictionnaire
Etymologique du fran\,cais_ (Robert) says that "dormir" is first
attested in the XI century, and comes (as one would have guessed)
from Latin "dormire, dormitus" (macrons on both "i"s there); Picoche
does not bother to give _any_ definition, which I would think she
would were the XI century meaning to have been other than the current
meaning. Surely in Latin the primary meaning of "dormire" was "to
sleep" (not in the sense of "to stand still", like a sleeping top,
but to...well...sleep)? Where are our Latinists?
Lee Rudolph
Evan Kirshenbaum
> In article <Nw7p5.423$Xy4....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, paul
> draper <pdr...@baig.co.uk> writes
> >I've heard of "cockamaney" tales (not sure of the spelling) and I
> >presume that this is a corruption of "cockalane"?
MW says (of "cockamamy" or "cockamamie") "perhaps alteration of
_decalcomania_", which, as we all know, is "the art or process of
transferring pictures and designs from specially prepared paper (as to
glass)". They list "cockamamy" from 1960, "decalcomania" from 1864.
I'd call this a stretch, but I've seen worse turn out to be true.
> Leo Rosten in *Hooray for Yiddish* (1983) gives 'cockamamy' as "a
> linguistic gem from the Lower East Side, cherished in Brooklyn,
> pampered in the Bronx, and now indispensable to the argot of urban
> life. I, for one, have found no pejorative synonym so pungent...I
> never encountered 'cockamamy' in the Midwest, South, Southwest or
> California..."
I knew it in Chicago when I grew up there (b. 1964). I'm fairly
certain that my dad (also b. Chicago) used it.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The body was wrapped in duct tape,
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |weighted down with concrete blocks
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and a telephone cord was tied
|around the neck. Police suspect
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |foul play...
(650)857-7572
Matti Lamprhey
> "Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@polka.bikini> wrote in message
> news:ix5p5.5198$ly4.22111@NewsReader...
mčre
> > l'oie/ (a mother goose tale), and it is worth noting that in Scotland a
> > satire or lampoon and also a rambling, disconnected story used to be
> called
> > a cockalane. </quote>
>
> that this is a corruption of "cockalane"?
Hello, Paul -- you're the one who beat me to the Elephant & Castle answer!
Well done on that.
I've seen "cockamamie" I think, and I'd gotten the impression it came from
the good old US of A. If so, I suspect both the root and the route were
different. Anyone know?
Matti
Matti Lamprhey
>
> My own trusty Harrap's gives for "histoire à dormir debout": "a tall
> story"; "a cock-and-bull story"; "a cock-eyed story"; it stays
> diplomatically silent on the boring aspect of those stories...
>
> For "cock-and-bull story", it gives: "histoire de pure invention"; "conte
> à dormir debout"; and, interestingly, "conte bleu". Apparently, some
> editions of fairy-tales used to be published with a blue cover. Having
> just checked in another dictionary, I think it would be a mistake for me
> to translate it by "blue story", as I have got a feeling it might give the
> wrong impression...
Here in the UK a writer called Andrew Lang produced a series of children's
books. I think his Blue Book of Fairies turned out to be the most popular
amongst those who just look at the pictures.
Matti
Richard Fontana
> In article <Nw7p5.423$Xy4....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, paul
> draper <pdr...@baig.co.uk> writes
> >I've heard of "cockamaney" tales (not sure of the spelling) and I presume
> >that this is a corruption of "cockalane"?
>
> Leo Rosten in *Hooray for Yiddish* (1983) gives 'cockamamy' as "a
> linguistic gem from the Lower East Side, cherished in Brooklyn, pampered
> in the Bronx, and now indispensable to the argot of urban life. I, for
> one, have found no pejorative synonym so pungent...I never encountered
> 'cockamamy' in the Midwest, South, Southwest or California..."
>
> Though Rosten gives it as a 'Yinglish' word, he says he doesn't doubt
> its use by Italian, Irish and Slavic kids from NY too. He remembered it
> from the 1920s, though Wentworth and Flexner gave a first recorded use
> in 1931. Sometimes it's also spelled 'cockamamie' and that's how my
> spell-checker would like it.
>
> Rosten gives half a dozen partly overlapping meanings, from 'confused'
> via 'fraudulent' to 'cheap'. I'm sure US users can be more accurate than
> my London contribution.
I never thought of this word as specifically Yinglish. I think of it as
an old-fashioned word, and the only person I know who ever used
it with some regularity is my grandmother, whose parents were indeed
native Yiddish speakers (and she was born in Brooklyn). She used to speak
of "Ayatollah Cockamamie" back in the days of the Iran hostage crisis some
twenty years ago.
Your Rosten excerpt doesn't expressly state that it's of *Yiddish*
origin, and I wonder then why he would suggest that it is "Yinglish"
rather than "New Yorkish". AHD3 defines "cockamamie" as "1. Trifling;
nearly valueless. 2. Ludicrous; nonsensical" but gives the etymology:
"Probably alteration of DECALCOMANIA". The latter word is the word from
which "decal" was shortened, another thing I didn't know. MWCD10 agrees
that this is "perhaps" the etymology (it gives the date as 1960).
--
Richard
Isabelle Cecchini
"Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@polka.bikini> a écrit dans le message news:
_X8p5.3147$pi.15851@NewsReader...
>
[...]
> Here in the UK a writer called Andrew Lang produced a series of
> children's books. I think his Blue Book of Fairies turned out to be the
> most popular amongst those who just look at the pictures.
>
> Matti
>
>
Do you happen to know whether the title would have caused some sniggering
at the time it was published (1889, I believe it was), and do you think it
can cause some raising of eyebrows nowadays, or is it just my devious
imagination, reading too much in a few dictionary definitions?
Isabelle Cecchini
Alex Chernavsky
>>Here in the UK a writer called Andrew Lang produced a series
>>of children's books. I think his Blue Book of Fairies turned out to
>>be the most popular amongst those who just look at the pictures.
Isabelle Cecchini replied:
>Do you happen to know whether the title would have caused
>some sniggering at the time it was published (1889, I believe it
>was), and do you think it can cause some raising of eyebrows
>nowadays, or is it just my devious imagination, reading too much
>in a few dictionary definitions?
For me, "blue book" conjures up images of final exams. In many American
schools, examination booklets have a light blue cover and are often
explicitly called "blue books".
See, for example:
http://www.snopes.com/college/exam/lostbook.htm
--
Alex Chernavsky
al...@astrocyte-design.com
Matti Lamprhey
> "Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@polka.bikini> a écrit...
> [...]
> > Here in the UK a writer called Andrew Lang produced a series of
> > children's books. I think his Blue Book of Fairies turned out to be the
> > most popular amongst those who just look at the pictures.
>
> at the time it was published (1889, I believe it was), and do you think it
> can cause some raising of eyebrows nowadays, or is it just my devious
> imagination, reading too much in a few dictionary definitions?
I was writing with my tongue firmly in my cheek, Isabelle -- you are
absolutely right about the date of The Blue Fairy Book, and I'm sure the
title would have caused no frisson at the time. I believe the link between
"blue" and pornography dates from the middle of the 20th century.
Fwiw here's a quick biog. courtesy of Encyclopaedia Britannica of:
Lang, Andrew
b. March 31, 1844, Selkirk, Selkirkshire, Scot.
d. July 20, 1912, Banchory, Aberdeenshire
Scottish scholar and man of letters noted for his collections of fairy tales
and translations of Homer.
Educated at St. Andrews University and at Balliol College, Oxford, he held
an open fellowship at Merton College until 1875, when he moved to London. He
quickly became famous for his critical articles in The Daily News and other
papers. He displayed talent as a poet in Ballads and Lyrics of Old France
(1872), Helen of Troy (1882), and Grass of Parnassus (1888) and as a
novelist with The Mark of Cain (1886) and The Disentanglers (1902). He
earned special praise for his 12-volume collection of fairy tales, the first
volume of which was The Blue Fairy Book (1889) and the last The Lilac Fairy
Book (1910). His own fairy tales, The Gold of Fairnilee (1888), Prince
Prigio (1889), and Prince Ricardo of Pantouflia (1893) became children's
classics.
Lang also did important pioneer work in such volumes as Custom and Myth
(1884) and Myth, Ritual and Religion (1887). Later he turned to history and
historical mysteries, notably Pickle the Spy (1897), A History of Scotland
from the Roman Occupation, 4 vol. (1900-07), Historical Mysteries (1904),
and The Maid of France (1908). His lifelong devotion to Homer produced
well-known prose translations of the Odyssey (1879), in collaboration with
S.H. Butcher, and of the Iliad (1883), with Walter Leaf and Ernest Myers. He
defended the theory of the unity of Homeric literature, and his World of
Homer (1910) is an important study.
Peter Moylan
>While my command of the French language does not, I am sure, approach
>yours, my sense is that "une histoire à dormir debout" is a boring or
>tedious story. That's why you're asleep.
>
>translation of coq-à-l'âne is "Cock and bull story" and then "desultory
>discourse." It says that "Faire des coq-à-l'âne" means to skip from one
>subject to another. Sauter would, obviously, do just as well as faire.
The Petit Robert gives only one meaning for "coq-à-l'âne", the one
about jumping from one subject to another. My experience is that
the Robert is a fairly reliable dictionary, whereas the Harrap's is
full of errors. The Oxford Hachette Concise English-French
dictionary agrees with the Petit Robert.
My Harrap's, apparently a different edition from yours, translates
"cock and bull story" as "histoire de pure invention", and I'd call
that a fairly good translation. It also gives "histoire à dormir debout"
as an alternative; to me that's nowhere near as good a translation.
The above-mentioned Oxford dictionary gives two translations for
"cock and bull story": "histoire abracadabrante" and "histoire à
dormir debout". Both of these mean "a tall story", which isn't
quite the same thing as a cock and bull story.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au
Tom Deveson
u>, Richard Fontana <re...@columbia.edu> writes
>Your Rosten excerpt doesn't expressly state that it's of *Yiddish*
>origin, and I wonder then why he would suggest that it is "Yinglish"
>rather than "New Yorkish".
He also lists it in *The Joys of Yiddish* (1968), but then confuses
things by giving the derivation as "Ameridish or children's argot" and
later going on to state, "This is not Hebrew and not Yiddish, but
indigenous argot. H.L.Mencken's *Dictionary of American English*,
surprisingly, does not list 'cockamamy'."
>AHD3 defines "cockamamie" as "1. Trifling;
>nearly valueless. 2. Ludicrous; nonsensical" but gives the etymology:
>"Probably alteration of DECALCOMANIA". The latter word is the word from
>which "decal" was shortened, another thing I didn't know. MWCD10 agrees
>that this is "perhaps" the etymology (it gives the date as 1960).
I never heard *decal* in England until I read American books. We called
them -- meaning coloured pictures you can moisten and slide onto paper
or, more satisfyingly, your hands and arms? -- 'transfers'. My wife as a
child on Tyneside called them 'transfers' when talking to adults and
'billy-stickers' when talking to other kids.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Andrew Pearson
>
> In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100082...@ciao.cc.columbia.ed
> u>, Richard Fontana <re...@columbia.edu> writes
> >Your Rosten excerpt doesn't expressly state that it's of *Yiddish*
> >origin, and I wonder then why he would suggest that it is "Yinglish"
> >rather than "New Yorkish".
>
I think that I associate the word cockamamie with New York - of
course being British my knowledge is only second hand and is
derived from stereotypical presentations in films and television.
To a Brit a phrase like "don't listen to his cockamamie ideas"
would sound more typical coming from a New Yorker than from a
Californian or a Texan.
By the way, I do admire Mr. Fontana's grandmother for her
expression "Ayatollah Cockamamie", that was excellent.
>
> I never heard *decal* in England until I read American books. We called
> them -- meaning coloured pictures you can moisten and slide onto paper
> or, more satisfyingly, your hands and arms? -- 'transfers'. My wife as a
> child on Tyneside called them 'transfers' when talking to adults and
> 'billy-stickers' when talking to other kids.
>
Ah then you were not a child in the sixties or seventies and
never made Airfix models (<www.airfix.com> to see what these
are). I'm sure the little stickers for the signs and numbers on
the sides of planes were always called "decals" in the
instructions and the parts list. But it's the only place I ever
remember seeing the word.
--
Usenet, a global collection of flaming opinions and senseless
babble, was designed as a way to eat up precious spool space on a
system's hard drive. It also is a way for people to distribute
pornography. (By Robert A. Hayden <www.geekcode.com>)
Andrew Pearson
>
> "Isabelle Cecchini" <Isabelle...@wanadoo.fr> wrote...
> > "Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@polka.bikini> a écrit...
> > > Here in the UK a writer called Andrew Lang produced a series of
> > > children's books. I think his Blue Book of Fairies turned out to be the
> > > most popular amongst those who just look at the pictures.
> >
> > at the time it was published (1889, I believe it was),
>
> I was writing with my tongue firmly in my cheek, Isabelle -- you are
> absolutely right about the date of The Blue Fairy Book, and I'm sure the
> title would have caused no frisson at the time. I believe the link between
> "blue" and pornography dates from the middle of the 20th century.
>
> Fwiw here's a quick biog. courtesy of Encyclopaedia Britannica of:
> [...] in collaboration with
> S.H. Butcher, and of the Iliad (1883), with Walter Leaf and Ernest Myers. He
Oh dear - association of ideas made me add an "ot" and misread
that as "the unity of Homoerotic literature"...
m.midorikawa
Tom Deveson wrote:
>
> He also lists it in *The Joys of Yiddish* (1968), but then confuses
> things by giving the derivation as "Ameridish or children's argot"
> and later going on to state, "This is not Hebrew and not Yiddish,
> but indigenous argot. H.L.Mencken's *Dictionary of American
> English*, surprisingly, does not list 'cockamamy'."
>
Leo Rosten also lists "cockamamy/cockamamie" in *The Joys of Yinglish*
(1989) and writes, "Not Hebrew, not Yiddish, but undeniably Yinglish,
Manhattan division."
According to Rosten, "Yinglish" is "that bright, brash, colorful, utterly
unique amalgam of English and Yiddish."
"I never heard *cockamamy* in the Midwest, the South, the Southwest or
California," adds he. "I first encountered (and was momentarily baffled by)
*cockamamy* in New York City. At first I thought it a scatological spin-off
from the Yiddish *kock* ('to defecate'). I later savored its pungent,
pejorative aroma in an essay by S.J. Perelman; it was one of his favorite
Yinglish adjectives."
Robert L. Chapman writes in *A New Dictionary of American Slang, Abridged
Edition* (1988):
[fr New York City dialect, perhaps fr British; somehow connected with
*decalcomania*; perhaps because decalcomanias as given in candy boxes and
chewing-gum packets were used by children for antic self-decoration]
There is the word "cock-a-nee-nee." Does it have anything to do with
"cockamamie"?
"Boil your molasses to a proper concistency.... This manufacture is called
by the Bostonians *lasses candy*, by the New Yorkers, *cock-a-nee-nee* --
but by the polite Philadelphians, by a name utterly impossible to
pronounce." -- Washington Irving, *Salmagundi* (1807)
Some citations:
"Haf an hour wid at cockamamee yuh'd be dead!" -- Sidney Kingsley, *Dead
End* (1935) [BTW, he was born Sidney Kirschner in New York City.]
"Don't give 'em none of that cockamamie bar stock, you hear?" -- "Woman of
the Year" (MGM film, 1942)
"Some cockamaimy story he is making up for the fun of it." -- Philip Ross,
*Portnoy's Complaint* (1969)
m.midorikawa
Aaron J Dinkin
> Tom Deveson <a...@devesons.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>> In article <Nw7p5.423$Xy4....@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, paul
>> draper <pdr...@baig.co.uk> writes
>> >I've heard of "cockamaney" tales (not sure of the spelling) and I
>> >presume that this is a corruption of "cockalane"?
>
> MW says (of "cockamamy" or "cockamamie") "perhaps alteration of
> _decalcomania_", which, as we all know, is "the art or process of
> transferring pictures and designs from specially prepared paper (as to
> glass)". They list "cockamamy" from 1960, "decalcomania" from 1864.
> I'd call this a stretch, but I've seen worse turn out to be true.
OED has a citation of "cockamany" (note the "n") from 1945:
: A. Kober Parm Me 5 `Cockamanies'-painted strips of paper which the kids
: applied to their wrists and rubbed with spit until the image was
: transferred to their hands.
This seems a reasonable path from "decalcomania" to "cockamamie". There's
also a 1968 citation that gives a double definition:
: Encounter Sept. 31/1 Cockamany,..1. Mixed-up, muddled; ridiculous,
: implausible; not credible, foolishly complicated... 2. Decalcomania:
: i.e. a picture or design left on the skin as a `transfer', from
: specially prepared paper which is wetted and rubbed.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Aaron J Dinkin
> For me, "blue book" conjures up images of final exams. In many American
> schools, examination booklets have a light blue cover and are often
> explicitly called "blue books".
Indeed, they're often even called blue books when they're not blue. I have
memories of taking physics exams in pink blue books that described
themselves as blue books right there on the pink cover.
Aaron J Dinkin
> "Matti Lamprhey" <ma...@polka.bikini> a écrit dans le message news:
> _X8p5.3147$pi.15851@NewsReader...
>
>> Here in the UK a writer called Andrew Lang produced a series of
>> children's books. I think his Blue Book of Fairies turned out to be the
>> most popular amongst those who just look at the pictures.
>
> Do you happen to know whether the title would have caused some sniggering
> at the time it was published (1889, I believe it was), and do you think it
> can cause some raising of eyebrows nowadays, or is it just my devious
> imagination, reading too much in a few dictionary definitions?
The OED has a citation of this sense of "blue" from an 1864 slang
dictionary (though then not another citation till 1935):
: 1864 Hotten Slang Dict. 78 Blue, said of talk that is smutty or
: indecent.