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Fowles: five-bob perm
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Marius Hancu
Nov 13, 2011, 10:25:47 AM11/13/11
to
Hello:
--
[He's a modest clerk in London]
I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
John Fowles, The Collector
---
"pools": pools for lottery or horse race betting?
"five-bob perm": five-shilling combination?
--
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
--
[He's a modest clerk in London]
I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
John Fowles, The Collector
---
"pools": pools for lottery or horse race betting?
"five-bob perm": five-shilling combination?
--
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Nick Spalding
Nov 13, 2011, 11:09:10 AM11/13/11
to
Marius Hancu wrote, in
<2572a3f5-76c1-4e81...@o13g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>
on Sun, 13 Nov 2011 07:25:47 -0800 (PST):
> Hello:
>
> --
> [He's a modest clerk in London]
>
> I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
> same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
> and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
> always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
>
> John Fowles, The Collector
> ---
>
> "pools": pools for lottery or horse race betting?
Football - soccer, not the American game.
> "five-bob perm": five-shilling combination?
Yes, "perm" is short for "permutation".
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
<2572a3f5-76c1-4e81...@o13g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>
on Sun, 13 Nov 2011 07:25:47 -0800 (PST):
> Hello:
>
> --
> [He's a modest clerk in London]
>
> I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
> same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
> and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
> always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
>
> John Fowles, The Collector
> ---
>
> "pools": pools for lottery or horse race betting?
> "five-bob perm": five-shilling combination?
Yes, "perm" is short for "permutation".
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Leslie Danks
Nov 13, 2011, 11:28:16 AM11/13/11
to
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_pool>
A "bob" is (was) a shilling.
--
Les
(BrE)
Marius Hancu
Nov 13, 2011, 11:52:10 AM11/13/11
to
On Nov 13, 11:09 am, Nick Spalding <spald...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
> > --
> > [He's a modest clerk in London]
>
> > I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
> > same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
> > and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
> > always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
>
> > John Fowles, The Collector
> > ---
>
> > "pools": pools for lottery or horse race betting?
>
> Football - soccer, not the American game.
>
> > "five-bob perm": five-shilling combination?
>
> Yes, "perm" is short for "permutation".
Thank you.
>
> > --
> > [He's a modest clerk in London]
>
> > I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
> > same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
> > and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
> > always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
>
> > John Fowles, The Collector
> > ---
>
> > "pools": pools for lottery or horse race betting?
>
> Football - soccer, not the American game.
>
> > "five-bob perm": five-shilling combination?
>
> Yes, "perm" is short for "permutation".
Marius Hancu
Marius Hancu
Nov 13, 2011, 11:53:44 AM11/13/11
to
On Nov 13, 11:28 am, Leslie Danks <leslie.da...@aon.at> wrote:
> Marius Hancu wrote:
> > Hello:
>
> > --
> > [He's a modest clerk in London]
>
> > I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
> > same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
> > and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
> > always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
>
> > John Fowles, The Collector
> > ---
>
> > "pools": pools for lottery or horse race betting?
> > "five-bob perm": five-shilling combination?
>
> Google and WikiP are there for you:
Aren't there "pools" for betting in several sports in the UK?
> Marius Hancu wrote:
> > Hello:
>
> > --
> > [He's a modest clerk in London]
>
> > I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
> > same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
> > and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
> > always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
>
> > John Fowles, The Collector
> > ---
>
> > "pools": pools for lottery or horse race betting?
> > "five-bob perm": five-shilling combination?
>
> Google and WikiP are there for you:
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Leslie Danks
Nov 13, 2011, 12:16:50 PM11/13/11
to
Marius Hancu wrote:
> On Nov 13, 11:28 am, Leslie Danks <leslie.da...@aon.at> wrote:
>> Marius Hancu wrote:
>> > Hello:
>>
>> > --
>> > [He's a modest clerk in London]
>>
>> > I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
>> > same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
>> > and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
>> > always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
>>
>> > John Fowles, The Collector
>> > ---
>>
>> > "pools": pools for lottery or horse race betting?
>> > "five-bob perm": five-shilling combination?
>>
>> Google and WikiP are there for you:
>
> Aren't there "pools" for betting in several sports in the UK?
>
There seem to be now, but I was unaware of any WIWAL. In any case, I would
> On Nov 13, 11:28 am, Leslie Danks <leslie.da...@aon.at> wrote:
>> Marius Hancu wrote:
>> > Hello:
>>
>> > --
>> > [He's a modest clerk in London]
>>
>> > I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
>> > same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
>> > and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
>> > always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
>>
>> > John Fowles, The Collector
>> > ---
>>
>> > "pools": pools for lottery or horse race betting?
>> > "five-bob perm": five-shilling combination?
>>
>> Google and WikiP are there for you:
>
> Aren't there "pools" for betting in several sports in the UK?
>
always interpret "the pools" without further definition as the "football
pools" and there us no doubt in my mind that this is also the case in your
example.
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_pool>
>>
>> A "bob" is (was) a shilling.
>
> Thanks.
> Marius Hancu
Les
(BrE)
Don Phillipson
Nov 13, 2011, 12:21:52 PM11/13/11
to
"Marius Hancu" <marius...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f7a09377-b1e6-4159...@m10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
>> > I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
>> > same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
>> > and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
>> > always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
>>
>> > John Fowles, The Collector
British laws restricting gambling allowed only:
1. Betting on horse or dog races in person, at the
race track, for cash only.
2. Betting on credit with a licensed bookmaker.
This was possible only for rich people who maintained
an account with the bookie ("turf accountant") and could
thus telephone their bets (on any sport or event, e.g.
election results.) 90 per cent of the population
could not afford such gambling accounts.
3. Football pools conducted by post, cf.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_pool>
Football pools were thus the only legal form of
gambling the non-rich could afford (unless they
went to the horse or dog races in person.)
These restrictions lasted from the First World War
(I think) up to some date in the late 1960s when the
British government licensed high street betting
shops (for the proletariat) and private gambling clubs
for poker, roulette, baccarat etc. (for the gentry.)
Before this, the only daydream of instant wealth
available to the working Englishman was a win
on the pools. (This generated a sub-industry of
inventing perms=permutations, viz. patterns of
betting believed to maximise the chance of a
win. There were many factors because there
were 50 to 100 soccer matches every week,
with three possible results (Win for the home team,
Loss or Draw) pool participants could choose
as many teams as they wanted, and select
each result -- hence the complexity of the perm.
Big winners were those who successfully predicted
6 or 7 draws. Because each cycle constituted a
pool of wagers, the top prizes were divided between
the top scorers. You scooped the pool only if
nobody else had selected the winning permutation
that you had chosen. (Hence the sub-industry of
statistical advisers, and hours of innocent pleasure
calculating and arguing how this might best be done.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:f7a09377-b1e6-4159...@m10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
>> > I did the pools from the week I was twenty-one. Every week I did the
>> > same five-bob perm. Old Tom and Crutchley, who were in Rates with me,
>> > and some of the girls clubbed together and did a big one and they were
>> > always going at me to join in, but I stayed the lone wolf.
>>
>> > John Fowles, The Collector
> Aren't there "pools" for betting in several sports in the UK?
>
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_pool>
The Collector is set in approx. 1960. Up to that date,
>
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_pool>
British laws restricting gambling allowed only:
1. Betting on horse or dog races in person, at the
race track, for cash only.
2. Betting on credit with a licensed bookmaker.
This was possible only for rich people who maintained
an account with the bookie ("turf accountant") and could
thus telephone their bets (on any sport or event, e.g.
election results.) 90 per cent of the population
could not afford such gambling accounts.
3. Football pools conducted by post, cf.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_pool>
Football pools were thus the only legal form of
gambling the non-rich could afford (unless they
went to the horse or dog races in person.)
These restrictions lasted from the First World War
(I think) up to some date in the late 1960s when the
British government licensed high street betting
shops (for the proletariat) and private gambling clubs
for poker, roulette, baccarat etc. (for the gentry.)
Before this, the only daydream of instant wealth
available to the working Englishman was a win
on the pools. (This generated a sub-industry of
inventing perms=permutations, viz. patterns of
betting believed to maximise the chance of a
win. There were many factors because there
were 50 to 100 soccer matches every week,
with three possible results (Win for the home team,
Loss or Draw) pool participants could choose
as many teams as they wanted, and select
each result -- hence the complexity of the perm.
Big winners were those who successfully predicted
6 or 7 draws. Because each cycle constituted a
pool of wagers, the top prizes were divided between
the top scorers. You scooped the pool only if
nobody else had selected the winning permutation
that you had chosen. (Hence the sub-industry of
statistical advisers, and hours of innocent pleasure
calculating and arguing how this might best be done.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Marius Hancu
Nov 13, 2011, 12:34:10 PM11/13/11
to
On Nov 13, 12:21 pm, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:
> "Marius Hancu" <marius.ha...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Thanks a lot.
Marius Hancu
> "Marius Hancu" <marius.ha...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Marius Hancu
the Omrud
Nov 13, 2011, 1:30:46 PM11/13/11
to
to hair.
--
David
Leslie Danks
Nov 13, 2011, 1:42:20 PM11/13/11
to
--
Les
(BrE)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 13, 2011, 1:51:49 PM11/13/11
to
meaning better.
--
athel
Iain Archer
Nov 13, 2011, 2:13:58 PM11/13/11
to
Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote on Sun, 13 Nov 2011
Yes. In strictly mathemetical terms, it was combinations that were
being selected rather than permutations. Permutation takes account of
order, combination doesn't.
So, from the set of three items {abc}, there are:
three possible combinations of two - (ab), (ac), (bc);
six possible permutations of two - (ab), (ba), (ac), (ca), (bc), (cb).
In popular use, I suspect it's more or less the case that permutation
and combination are treated as synonymous.
--
Iain Archer To email, please use Reply-To address
being selected rather than permutations. Permutation takes account of
order, combination doesn't.
So, from the set of three items {abc}, there are:
three possible combinations of two - (ab), (ac), (bc);
six possible permutations of two - (ab), (ba), (ac), (ca), (bc), (cb).
In popular use, I suspect it's more or less the case that permutation
and combination are treated as synonymous.
--
Iain Archer To email, please use Reply-To address
the Omrud
Nov 13, 2011, 2:21:00 PM11/13/11
to
--
David
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 13, 2011, 2:49:11 PM11/13/11
to
quotation. But the pools fit the context better.
--
athel
James Silverton
Nov 13, 2011, 3:04:09 PM11/13/11
to
remarkable schemes fondly imagined to evade the laws of statistics.
--
James Silverton, Potomac
I'm *not* not.jim....@verizon.net
Robin Bignall
Nov 13, 2011, 3:36:53 PM11/13/11
to
themselves with order. Back in the day (before they'd invented "back in
the day" or "score draws") if you managed to pick eight draws, in any
order, you had a share of the 75,000 UKP first prize. If you were
really lucky you were the only person to guess eight, and got it all. In
those days 75,000 was enough to retire on.
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England
Robin Bignall
Nov 13, 2011, 3:42:47 PM11/13/11
to
to create hot perms in hair. My cousin had a hairdressing salon in her
house and I used to accompany my mother.
Prai Jei
Nov 13, 2011, 4:15:59 PM11/13/11
to
Robin Bignall set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:
One thing I wouldn't need done on my hair. I agree with you about the stink.
Characteristic of ladies' hairdressing salons.
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
continuum:
Characteristic of ladies' hairdressing salons.
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Marius Hancu
Nov 13, 2011, 4:20:23 PM11/13/11
to
On Nov 13, 3:36 pm, Robin Bignall <docro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:13:58 +0000, Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote on Sun, 13 Nov 2011
> >>On 2011-11-13 17:09:10 +0100, Nick Spalding said:
>
> >>> Marius Hancu wrote, in
> >>> <2572a3f5-76c1-4e81-b95a-87208c047...@o13g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:13:58 +0000, Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote on Sun, 13 Nov 2011
> >>On 2011-11-13 17:09:10 +0100, Nick Spalding said:
>
> >>> Marius Hancu wrote, in
Marius Hancu
Prai Jei
Nov 13, 2011, 4:21:05 PM11/13/11
to
Robin Bignall set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:
continuum:
> You may well be right, but perms for football pools didn't concern
> themselves with order. Back in the day (before they'd invented "back in
> the day" or "score draws") if you managed to pick eight draws, in any
> order, you had a share of the 75,000 UKP first prize. If you were
> really lucky you were the only person to guess eight, and got it all. In
> those days 75,000 was enough to retire on.
The maximum prize rose through the years, finally reaching £1M. The most we
> themselves with order. Back in the day (before they'd invented "back in
> the day" or "score draws") if you managed to pick eight draws, in any
> order, you had a share of the 75,000 UKP first prize. If you were
> really lucky you were the only person to guess eight, and got it all. In
> those days 75,000 was enough to retire on.
ever won was about £400.
Are the pools still going? I would expected them to have been killed off by
the National Lottery.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 13, 2011, 4:46:30 PM11/13/11
to
was the amount everyone dreamed of winning.
--
athel
the Omrud
Nov 13, 2011, 5:43:44 PM11/13/11
to
--
David
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Nov 13, 2011, 6:31:03 PM11/13/11
to
The inventors of the terminology for football pools might have chosen
the word "permutation" because it would be unknown to the vast majority
of their customers and would not be subject to misunderstanding in the
way that the familiar word "combination" could be. If a word already has
familiar meanings which are not the specific, limited, meaning that you
intend to convey; then: Trouble.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Iain Archer
Nov 14, 2011, 5:23:04 AM11/14/11
to
Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote on Sun, 13 Nov 2011
Given that "combinations" would then probably have meant to many an
item of underwear, it's an understandable choice.
item of underwear, it's an understandable choice.
Hairy Monster
Nov 14, 2011, 4:31:11 PM11/14/11
to
Prai Jei spouted forth:
> I agree with you about the stink. Characteristic of ladies'
> hairdressing salons.
Does it come from the hairdressing - or the ladies?
--
I like being hairy, I'd rather not be a monster
> I agree with you about the stink. Characteristic of ladies'
> hairdressing salons.
--
I like being hairy, I'd rather not be a monster
Snidely
Nov 19, 2011, 3:20:15 AM11/19/11
to
Hairy Monster <some...@somewhere.com> scribbled something like ...
> Prai Jei spouted forth:
>
>> I agree with you about the stink. Characteristic of ladies'
>> hairdressing salons.
>
> Does it come from the hairdressing - or the ladies?
If they are referring to the ammonia, it comes from the hair treatment
(hairdressing as a verb includes applying the treatment, hair dressing as a
noun is applied later).
A salon will have plenty of scented products to provide conflicting smells,
as well. And once and a while it will also have some singeing of keratin,
for yet another conflicting smell.
/dps
> Prai Jei spouted forth:
>
>> I agree with you about the stink. Characteristic of ladies'
>> hairdressing salons.
>
> Does it come from the hairdressing - or the ladies?
(hairdressing as a verb includes applying the treatment, hair dressing as a
noun is applied later).
A salon will have plenty of scented products to provide conflicting smells,
as well. And once and a while it will also have some singeing of keratin,
for yet another conflicting smell.
/dps
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