Eeny Meeny
Farhad
a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of
English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
Eeny meeny miny mo,
Catch a rabbit by the toe,
If it hollers let'im go,
Eeny meeny miny mo.
Farhad
MC
<c17a03ae-c6af-46ec...@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> wrote:
This is a cleaned-up version of the one I heard as a kid (in England).
At that time no one had a problem with the "n-word" instead of "rabbit."
--
"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones
Ian Jackson
<c17a03ae-c6af-46ec...@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> writes
"Eeny meeny miny mo,
Catch a nigger by the toe,
If he screams, let'im go,
Eeny meeny miny mo."
Although no harm was meant by it, the use of word "nigger" is now
completely politically incorrect (as is the whole idea of treating
someone with so much disrespect, just because of his race). The
offending word has therefore been replaced with a variety of
alternatives, and "rabbit" is as good as any.
But I have to be very careful on the rare occasions when I speak the
rhyme out loud. The original version is locked firmly in my memory
banks, and cannot be altered or erased.
--
Ian
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message
><c17a03ae-c6af-46ec...@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
>Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> writes
>>What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for
>>a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of
>>English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
>>
>>Eeny meeny miny mo,
>>Catch a rabbit by the toe,
>>If it hollers let'im go,
>>Eeny meeny miny mo.
>>
>The British version (which I learned as a child) used to be:
>"Eeny meeny miny mo,
>Catch a nigger by the toe,
>If he screams, let'im go,
>Eeny meeny miny mo."
>
>Although no harm was meant by it, the use of word "nigger" is now
>completely politically incorrect (as is the whole idea of treating
>someone with so much disrespect, just because of his race). The
>offending word has therefore been replaced with a variety of
>alternatives, and "rabbit" is as good as any.
>
Speciesism!
>But I have to be very careful on the rare occasions when I speak the
>rhyme out loud. The original version is locked firmly in my memory
>banks, and cannot be altered or erased.
Ditto.
Of course, at the time I learnt the rhyme there were no n-word type
persons around to be caught by the toe.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Mark Brader
>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
>> If it hollers let'im go,
>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
Ian Jackson:
> The British version (which I learned as a child) used to be:
> "Eeny meeny miny mo,
> Catch a nigger by the toe,
> If he screams, let'im go,
> Eeny meeny miny mo."
> ... I have to be very careful on the rare occasions when I speak the
> rhyme out loud. The original version is locked firmly in my memory
> banks, and cannot be altered or erased.
I learned it as a child when my parents and I had recently moved from
Britain to Canada, and the second line was as Ian gives it. However,
Ian's third line doesn't scan -- I learned that line as Farhad gives it.
In the first and fourth lines, I'd use the spelling "miney", not "miny".
--
Mark Brader "We demand rigidly defined areas
Toronto of doubt and uncertainty!"
m...@vex.net -- Vroomfondel (Douglas Adams: HHGTTG)
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Mike L
Depending on one's dialect, there were in Aus in my time, and the
rhyme was (unusually, I'm sure) deprecated in my family. But what
interests me most about this is the way "nigger" has in some way
become a tabu word like "fuck", not a tabu word like "spic": many
people feel they have to say "the n-word", like "the f-word", but not
"the s-word". Tabus and euphemisms move in mysterious ways: I remember
Muslim girls in Reading who'd been taught not only that one mustn't
eat pigs or use their skins, but that it was rude to say the /word/
--"There's a picture of a...hum-hum in that book".
--
Mike.
Frank ess
Mark Brader wrote:
> "Farhad":
>>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
>>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
>>> If it hollers let'im go,
>>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
>
> Ian Jackson:
>> The British version (which I learned as a child) used to be:
>> "Eeny meeny miny mo,
>> Catch a nigger by the toe,
>> If he screams, let'im go,
>> Eeny meeny miny mo."
>
>> ... I have to be very careful on the rare occasions when I speak
>> the rhyme out loud. The original version is locked firmly in my
>> memory banks, and cannot be altered or erased.
>
> I learned it as a child when my parents and I had recently moved
> from Britain to Canada, and the second line was as Ian gives it.
> However, Ian's third line doesn't scan -- I learned that line as
> Farhad gives it.
>
> In the first and fourth lines, I'd use the spelling "miney", not
> "miny".
I agree with Mark.
My daughter brought home "tiger" in the mid-1960s, California USA.
Is the Mexican
"Tin mar�n
de dos ping�e
Cucara macara
T�tiri fu�"
out of bounds in AUE?
--
Frank ess
James Silverton
In kindergarten, my kids learned
"Eeny, miny mo!
Catch a tiger by the toe
If he wriggles,
Let him go"
Neither my wife nor I taught them that tho' we both had memories of the
racist version.
Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used
to be "Ten little n- boys"?
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
the Omrud
> In message
> <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec...@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
> Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> writes
>> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for
>> a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of
>> English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
>>
>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
>> If it hollers let'im go,
>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
>>
> The British version (which I learned as a child) used to be:
> "Eeny meeny miny mo,
> Catch a nigger by the toe,
> If he screams, let'im go,
> Eeny meeny miny mo."
My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. And I
think it was "by his toe".
--
David
grabber
"the Omrud" <usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote in message
news:tgt6m.55412$OO7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
"Hollers" doesn't sound like BrE to me. When I were a lad it was "squeals"
(2 syllables).
> And I think it was "by his toe".
Same here.
the Omrud
We used to count "spuds" at primary school:
One potato, two potato,
Three potato, four.
Five potato, six potato,
Seven potato, more.
O U T spells out.
The participants stood in a circle with both fists extended and
clenched, apparently resembling potatoes. The command for this was
"Spuds up!". The counter would knock each spud in turn with one of his
own, on the stress points in the rhyme and the spud which was hit by
"out" was dropped. The counting started again from the next spud. Any
person who had no spuds left was knocked out. You could either use this
to choose a loser (first to drop two spuds) or a winner (last in). The
counter included his own spuds which were kept clenched throughout by
knocking them in turn with the other, to keep them in the round.
I haven't thought of this for more than 40 years.
--
David
Mark Brader
> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used
> to be "Ten little n- boys"?
That's backwards; "Ten Little Indians" is the original version.
It's the Agatha Christie novel named after it (and now more often
called "And Then There Were None") that had its title changed in
the other direction. See my posting here on the subject in 2006.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "...This is due to the Coincidence effect,
m...@vex.net | more so than the Coriolis." -- Cindy Kandolf
John Dean
> Farhad wrote:
>> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person
>> for a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety
>> of English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
>>
>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
>> If it hollers let'im go,
>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
>
> We used to count "spuds" at primary school:
>
> One potato, two potato,
> Three potato, four.
> Five potato, six potato,
> Seven potato, more.
> O U T spells out.
>
Uh huh. We did that, as well as "eeny meeny". We also did
Ip dip dip
My little ship
Sailing on the water
Like a cup and saucer
You are not in IT
--
John Dean
Oxford
Mark Brader
>>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
>>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
>>> If it hollers let'im go,
>>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
Mark Brader:
> In the first and fourth lines, I'd use the spelling "miney", not "miny".
Come to think of it, I'd probably use "Eenie meenie miney mo".
I just asked my wife Cathy (who has always lived in Canada) how she'd
spell it and she wasn't sure, but when I asked her to try anyway, she
produced "Eenie-meanie-miney-moe".
--
Mark Brader | "A colorful quilt reflecting the dispersed development
m...@vex.net | of the nation. A sentence fragment."
Toronto | --Eric Walker
Hatunen
<not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote:
> Frank wrote on Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:45:38 -0700:
>
>
>In kindergarten, my kids learned
>"Eeny, miny mo!
>Catch a tiger by the toe
>If he wriggles,
>Let him go"
>
>Neither my wife nor I taught them that tho' we both had memories of the
>racist version.
>
>Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used
>to be "Ten little n- boys"?
To the confusion of American kids who don't realize that Indians
are Asians in this regard.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Hatunen
wrote:
>James Silverton:
>> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used
>> to be "Ten little n- boys"?
>
>That's backwards; "Ten Little Indians" is the original version.
>It's the Agatha Christie novel named after it (and now more often
>called "And Then There Were None") that had its title changed in
>the other direction. See my posting here on the subject in 2006.
I'm a bit confused here. The original title of the story was "Ten
Little Niggers" but it was subsequently published in the USA as
"And Then There Were None".
Amazon shows two copies of "Ten Little Niggers" available at $450
and $1250.
The trail seems rather tangled on this. Googlebooks has a copy of
the play, "And then There Were None", as published by Samuel
French, while my playscript has the typical Samuel French cover
and calls it "Ten Little Indians". (I think I'ver mentioned
before that I was in a production, as Lombard, which the director
set on an island within the Grand Canyon using small Amerind
statues as the Indians). It played on Braodway in 1944 as "Ten
Little Indians".
According to
http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=ten+little+indians&x=0&y=0
it has been filmed as "Ten Little Indians", as "And Then There
Were None", and for TV as "Ten Little Niggers" (looks like an
English cast so I figure for Brit TV)
Joe Fineman
> Tabus and euphemisms move in mysterious ways: I remember Muslim
> girls in Reading who'd been taught not only that one mustn't eat
> pigs or use their skins, but that it was rude to say the /word/
> --"There's a picture of a...hum-hum in that book".
So also with orthodox Jews. When speaking Yiddish, they used to say
"dover akher" (from Hebrew, literally "another thing") instead of
"khazer" (pig). Calling a person a dover akher was rather strong
language, pretty much like "swine" in English.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: A lot of what people do doesn't make sense even as :||
||: foolishness. :||
Jeffrey Turner
> Frank wrote on Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:45:38 -0700:
>
>
> In kindergarten, my kids learned
> "Eeny, miny mo!
> Catch a tiger by the toe
> If he wriggles,
> Let him go"
I learned
Eeny-Meenie-Miney-Mo
Catch a tiger by the toe.
If he hollers let him go.
My mother said to pick this very one.
Out goes y-o-u.
In the sixties on Long Island, NY.
--Jeff
--
The comfort of the wealthy has always
depended upon an abundant supply of
the poor. --Voltaire
Bertel Lund Hansen
> The participants stood in a circle with both fists extended and
> clenched, apparently resembling potatoes. The command for this was
> "Spuds up!". The counter would knock each spud in turn with one of his
> own, on the stress points in the rhyme and the spud which was hit by
> "out" was dropped.
That's funny. We did exactly the same (in Denmark) when I was a
kid. We didn't have a spuds-up-command though, and potatoes were
not part of our rhyme or thinking. The knock on fists was just a
way of marking the count.
This is the rhyme we used most often:
ente dente fedte klente
bombarderuske sniske snuske
hummer sardiner laks rosiner
mandel lakrids skidt og kanel
The first two lines have no meaning. The words are just sounds.
The two last lines mean:
lobsters sardines salmons raisins
almonds liquorice dirt and cinnamon
--
Bertel, Denmark
Jerry Friedman
> James Silverton wrote:
> > Frank wrote on Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:45:38 -0700:
>
> > In kindergarten, my kids learned
> > "Eeny, miny mo!
> > Catch a tiger by the toe
> > If he wriggles,
> > Let him go"
>
> I learned
>
> Eeny-Meenie-Miney-Mo
> Catch a tiger by the toe.
> If he hollers let him go.
> My mother said to pick this very one.
> Out goes y-o-u.
>
> In the sixties on Long Island, NY.
At about the same time, I learned the same first three lines. "Eeny
meenie miney mo" was repeated after "let him go", and the last part,
which was optional, went, "My mother told me to pick the very best one
and you are it." Or maybe "you are out".
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> de dos pingüe
> Cucara macara
> Títiri fué"
>
> out of bounds in AUE?
Probably.
I learned it from a Mexican man as
Tin marín de don pingüé
Cúcara mácara títere fue
Yo no fui, fue Teté,
Este merito cochino marrano fue.
The extra foot in the last line sounds very Mexican to me, and when
this was discussed in a.u.s. a number of years ago, the cognates from
other countries didn't have it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Robert Bannister
I've heard "hollers", but that wasn't a word most of us really knew,
which is perhaps why our version used "bites".
--
Rob Bannister
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
You vant German and Austrian rhymes?
http://jungschar.untermais.net/spiele/reime.htm
_Abz�hlreime_ (lit., "count-off rhymes")
Ene, mene, ming, mang,
kling, klang, eia, weia, weg.
Ich und du, <--- This is the most popular/common one.
M�llers Kuh,
M�llers Esel,
das bist du.
Ene, mene Tintenfass,
geh in die Schul' und lerne was.
Wenn du was gelernt hast,
komm nach Haus' und sage was.
Eins, zwei, drei
und du bist frei.
Eins, zwei, drei, vier, f�nf, sechs, sieben,
eine alte Frau kocht R�ben.
Eine alte Frau kocht Speck,
und du bist weg.
Geht ein M�nnlein �ber die Br�ck',
hat ein S�cklein auf dem R�ck',
schl�gt es an den Pfosten,
Pfosten kracht,
M�nnlein lacht:
tipp-tipp-tapp-
du bist ab!
Das ist mein Apfel,
und das ist mein Birn,
und wenn du mich fangen willst,
musst du dich halt r�hr'n!
Auf dem Berge Sinai
wohnt der Schneider Kickriki.
Schaut mit seiner Brille raus:
Eins - zwei - drei
und du bist raus!
Ene, mene, meck,
und du bist weg!
Eine kleine Mickey Mouse
zieht sich die Hosen aus,
zieht sie wieder an,
und du bist dran!
In einer Eisenbahn
fuhr eine Dickmadam.
Die Eisenbahn, die krachte,
die Dickmadam, sie lachte.
Eins, zwei, drei
und du bist frei!
Ene mene muh, drau� bist du!
Drau� bist du noch lange nicht,
sag mir erst, wie alt du bist!
K�fer, flieg ins B�ckerhaus,
hol ein Korb mit Kuchen raus.
Mir ein, dir ein,
und du sollst drau� sein!
Eine kleine Spitzmaus
lief ums Rathaus,
wollte sich was kaufen,
hatte sich verlaufen,
kam die Mutter mit dem Stock,
haut sie auf den Unterrock.
Unterrock war lose,
haut sie auf die Hose.
Hose war kaputt,
und du bist futt.
Eins, zwei, drei, vier, f�nf, sechs, sieben, acht,
die Stiege kracht,
das Haus f�llt ein,
und du mu�t's sein!
Eins, zwei, drei, vier, f�nf, sechs, sieben,
ein Tiroler hat geschrieben:
"Liebe Mutter, sei so gut,
schick mir ein Tirolerhut.
Nicht zu gro� und nicht zu klein,
denn er soll zur Hochzeit sein."
Eins, zwei, drei,
und du bist frei.
Ene, mene, dubbe dene,
dubbe dene dalia,
ebbe, bebbe, bembio,
bio, bio, buff.
Auf einem bi-ba-bunten Berge
wohnen bi-ba-bunte Zwerge.
Und die bi-ba-bunten Zwerge
haben bi-ba-bunte Kinder.
Und die bi-ba-bunten Kinder
essen jeden Tag ein Ei:
Eins, zwei, drei,
und du bist frei!
Eins, zwei, drei, vier, f�nf,
mach dich auf die Str�mpf,
mach dich auf die Schuh,
sonst bist's du!
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,
eine alte Frau kocht R�ben,
eine alte Frau kocht Speck.
Wub, wub, wub, da war sie weg.
Wub, wub, wub, da kam sie wieder,
hinter ihr lief eine Maus,
und du bist drau�!
Meine G�te, in der T�te
sa� ein Kater, macht Theater;
kam der B�r, macht noch mehr,
kam die Maus, und du bist drau�!
Der Kuckuck auf dem Zaune sa�,
da kam der Regen, macht' ihn na�,
dann kam der liebe Sonnenschein,
und diese, diese soll es sein.
Eene de meene de micke de mo,
abe de babe de bombasto,
ex -- drecks -- gau�,
du bist drau�!
Ritz und Ratz
Maus und Katz
Katz und Maus
Du bist drau�!
Eins, zwei, drei,
du bist frei!
Gib dich drein:
du mu�t's sein!
Ene mene miste
es rappelt in der Kiste
ene mene meck
und Du bist weg!
Pusteblume,
L�wenzahn,
1, 2, 3
und du bist dran!
Hinterm Kuhstall
spielt ein Ochse Fussball
keiner hat's gesehn
und du darfst gehn.
Ene mene misste,
wer klappert in der Kiste?
Eine kleine Dickmadamme,
fuhr mit der Eisenbahn,
Eisenbahn krachte
Dickmadamme lachte,
lachte bis der Schaffner kam
und sie mit nach Hause nahm.
Ibsen, Dibsen,
silber Nixen
ibsen dibsen daus
und du bist raus!
Auf einem Gummi-Gummi Berg,
da sa� ein Gummi-Gummi Zwerg,
der Gummi-Gummi Zwerg hatte eine Gummi-Gummi Frau,
die Gummi-Gummi Frau hatte ein Gummi-Gummi Kind,
das Gummi-Gummi Kind hatte eine Gummi-Gummi Hose,
die Gummi-Gummi Hose hatte ein Gummi-Gummi Loch
und du bist es doch.
Dein Vater ist ein reicher Mann,
der sich fast alles leisten kann.
Er f�hrt mit einem tollen Wagen
und darum wollen wir dir sagen:
Warum f�hrt er an uns vorbei?
Du bist sein Kind
und du bist frei!
Azelle, B�lle schelle.
D'Katz goot uf Walliselle.
H�tt sie krummi Bei,
goht sie wieder hei.
Biff, baff, buff
und du bisch duss.
Eine kleine Mikey Maus
zog sich mal die Hosen aus,
zog sie wieder an
und du bist dran.
Dran bist du noch lange nicht
sag mir erst wie alt du bist.
... ist eine schlechte Zahl.
Sag mir wer ist dein aller aller gr��ter Schatz.
... hat ins Bett geschissen
Mutter hats gesehen
und du musst gehen!
Der kleine B�r geht umh�r
kommt beim tig�r an
und du bist dr�n.
Eins, zwei, drei
Butter in den Brei.
Salz auf den Speck,
und du bist weg!
Henriette
gold'ne Kette
gold'ner Schuh
rau�/dran bist du!
Eene Meene Mopel,
Wer fri�t Popel?
S�� und saftig,
Eine Mark und achtzig,
Eine Mark und zehn,
Und Du kannst gehn!
10 Zigaretten
h�pfen in die Betten,
h�pfen wieder raus
und du bist drau�.
In einer Bude sa� ne Trude
Kopf voller L�use
didel dadel d�use
didel dadel datsch
wie hei�t dein hei� geliebter Schatz?
... hat sich k�ssen lassen
mitten auf der Modestra�e
Mutti hats gesehn
und du musst gehn.
Auf einem See See See,
da stand ein Reh Reh Reh,
riebi bibi tasch
wie hei�t dein hei� geliebter Schatz?
...(Name) hat sich k�ssen lassen
mitten auf der Kaiser Strassen,
Mutti hat�s gesehen und du musst gehen,
gehen musst du noch lange nicht,
sag mir erst wie alt du bist.
...(Zahl) und dann runter z�hlen
Coca Cola mit Aroma,
Coca Cola mit Geschmack,
und du bist ab!
Ufem Klavier
stoht es Bier
wers trinkt
de stinkt.
Eins, zwei, drei, vier
Papa braucht Bier.
Vier, drei, zwei, eins
Mama braucht keins.
Eins, zwei, drei, vier, f�nf,
mach dich auf die Str�mpf',
mach dich auf die Schuh',
sonst bist's du!
Sieben, sechs, f�nf, vier, drei, zwei, eins,
geht das Hexeneinmaleins.
Kinder tragen Blumenkr�nze,
Hexen tragen Rattenschw�nze,
Hexenhaus hat gute Sachen
und du musst die Hexe machen.
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
Steve Hayes
>Mike L <mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Tabus and euphemisms move in mysterious ways: I remember Muslim
>> girls in Reading who'd been taught not only that one mustn't eat
>> pigs or use their skins, but that it was rude to say the /word/
>> --"There's a picture of a...hum-hum in that book".
>
>So also with orthodox Jews. When speaking Yiddish, they used to say
>"dover akher" (from Hebrew, literally "another thing") instead of
>"khazer" (pig). Calling a person a dover akher was rather strong
>language, pretty much like "swine" in English.
When my daughter was in Grade 1 in an Anglican church school the class teacher
asked a Muslim girl if her parents would mind if she took part in the class
nativity play. She said that if they objected she would tell them that they
could be thankful that she wasn't playing the part of a pig (she was a cow).
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
>> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan.
>
>"Hollers" doesn't sound like BrE to me. When I were a lad it was "squeals"
>(2 syllables).
>
>> And I think it was "by his toe".
>
>Same here.
Mine (South Africa 1950s) was "nigger" and "hollers" and "by his toe".
I can't speak for anyone else, but in my mind at that time "niggers" lived in
North America, along with Brer Rabbit.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>We used to count "spuds" at primary school:
>
>One potato, two potato,
>Three potato, four.
>Five potato, six potato,
>Seven potato, more.
>O U T spells out.
We used that too, exactly as you wrote it, but no mention of spuds.
R H Draney
>
>We used to count "spuds" at primary school:
>
>One potato, two potato,
>Three potato, four.
>Five potato, six potato,
>Seven potato, more.
>O U T spells out.
>
It was alluded to in the theme song for "The Banana Splits" right around that
time:
"One banana, two banana,
Three banana, four.
Four bananas make a bunch
And so do many more.
Over hill and highway
The banana buggies go,
Comin' on to bring you
The Banana Splits Show."
Also in the t-shirt slogan: "One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor."
....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Nick
Current Gloucestershire version (ie, just solicited from a
representative):
Eeny-Meenie-Miney-Mo
Catch a kitten by the toe.
If it screams let it go.
Eeny-Meenie-Miney-Mo
(not particularly optional) ending (when and where I grew up there were
no such endings) is "Black cat says it must ... be ... YOU!"
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
James Hogg
We had the potato rhyme roo. Others that I remember are:
Pig snout walk out.
All skies are blue
All out but you.
Eeetle ottle blackbottle
Eeetle ottle out.
And, of course, Eeeny Meeny with the n-word. I don't rememeber
whether we said "squeals" or "screams", but it definitely wasn't
"hollers".
There's a big collection in "Children's Games" by Iona & Peter
Opie to which the OP is referred.
--
James
(BrE with a distinctly septentrional flavour)
ke...@cam.ac.uk
It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever
came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now.
Katy
James Hogg
It used to be widespread in England and it was British speakers
who took it to America. In Victorian times it was used in print
by Sabine Baring-Gould and (in the form "holla") by Charles
Kingsley, both representing English dialect speech.
--
James
Barry
wrote:
>
>We had the potato rhyme roo. Others that I remember are:
>
>Pig snout walk out.
>
>All skies are blue
>All out but you.
>
>Eeetle ottle blackbottle
>Eeetle ottle out.
>
>And, of course, Eeeny Meeny with the n-word. I don't rememeber
>whether we said "squeals" or "screams", but it definitely wasn't
>"hollers".
>
>There's a big collection in "Children's Games" by Iona & Peter
>Opie to which the OP is referred.
My mother and your mother were hanging out clothes.
My mother punched your mother in the nose.
What color was her blood?
[Yell out color]
B-L-U-E [or whatever] spells "blue."
[The person with the "E" was out. Philadelphia, early fifties.]
As for the potato rhyme, I recall "seven potato OR."
Barry in Indy
Ian Jackson
<flgb...@ameritech.net> writes
>
>>
>
>As for the potato rhyme, I recall "seven potato OR."
>
Me too (NE England). But it doesn't make sense, does it!
--
Oan
Mike Barnes
>Farhad wrote:
>> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for
>> a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of
>> English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
>> If it hollers let'im go,
>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
>
>We used to count "spuds" at primary school:
>
>One potato, two potato,
>Three potato, four.
>Five potato, six potato,
>Seven potato, more.
>O U T spells out.
In my world, only *girls* did that.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Mike Barnes
>
>"the Omrud" <usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote in message news:tgt6m
>.55412$OO7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> In message <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec...@d23g2000vbm.google
>>>groups.com>, Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> writes
>>>> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for
>>>> a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of
>>>> English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
>>>>
>>>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
>>>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
>>>> If it hollers let'im go,
>>>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
>>>>
>>> The British version (which I learned as a child) used to be:
>>> "Eeny meeny miny mo,
>>> Catch a nigger by the toe,
>>> If he screams, let'im go,
>>> Eeny meeny miny mo."
>>
>> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan.
That agrees 100% with what I learned (1950s).
>"Hollers" doesn't sound like BrE to me.
Quite right, "hollers" isn't BrE. But we were exposed to lots of
westerns. We didn't have black people either, except on our jars of
marmalade. The rhyme was part exotic, part nonsense.
Wood Avens
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 23:20:22 +0100, "grabber" <g...@bb.er> wrote:
>
>>> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan.
>>
>>"Hollers" doesn't sound like BrE to me. When I were a lad it was "squeals"
>>(2 syllables).
>>
>>> And I think it was "by his toe".
>>
>>Same here.
>
>Mine (South Africa 1950s) was "nigger" and "hollers" and "by his toe".
>
>I can't speak for anyone else, but in my mind at that time "niggers" lived in
>North America, along with Brer Rabbit.
Ours (southern England) was the same, and "hollers" provided a
pleasing exoticism, just as you say.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Roland Hutchinson
"If he winges, let him go" just doesn't have the right _Schwung_, innit.
--
Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Pat Durkin
"Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9655cfcc-26e4-484d...@l2g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 12, 6:01 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
> James Silverton wrote:
> > Frank wrote on Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:45:38 -0700:
>
> > In kindergarten, my kids learned
> > "Eeny, miny mo!
> > Catch a tiger by the toe
> > If he wriggles,
> > Let him go"
>
> I learned
>
> Eeny-Meenie-Miney-Mo
> Catch a tiger by the toe.
> If he hollers let him go.
> My mother said to pick this very one.
> Out goes y-o-u.
>
> In the sixties on Long Island, NY.
Jerry: At about the same time, I learned the same first three lines.
"Eeny
meenie miney mo" was repeated after "let him go", and the last part,
which was optional, went, "My mother told me to pick the very best one
and you are it." Or maybe "you are out".
Pat: I heard that ending occasionally.
Another ending (unless I am making some bad association) was:
If he hollers let him go
But make him pay
Fifty dollars evey day.
One
Two
Three etc.
That was actually a bullying thing, because they never did let "him"
(the last person touched or counted on "go" or "day") go, but instead
braced him (as in London Bridge's "build it up with sticks and stones,
etc", two people circled their arms around the victim) and roughly
jostled him or held him while the other kids ran up and punched him.
Cece
> "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't think we ever used this to determine which person to choose,
but which inanimate item. The version I learned in Indianapolis in
the early '50s was
Eeny meeney miney moe
Catch a frog by the toe
If he hollers
Make him pay
Fifty dollars every day
My mother told me
To choose the very best one
Y O U spells you.
What I hear nowadays has "tiger" and drops lines 3 through 5
entirely. (I wondered about that frog in the version I learned -- How
can you catch a toe on a webbed foot? Frogs get "it," not "he" and
"him." Where would a frog get money? -- for decades until I heard
what the original word had been.)
The potato counting was a game all by itself. I think. Like A-
tisket, A-tasket and London Bridge.
Jerry Friedman
> Farhad wrote:
> > What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for
> > a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of
> > English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
>
> > Eeny meeny miny mo,
> > Catch a rabbit by the toe,
> > If it hollers let'im go,
> > Eeny meeny miny mo.
>
>
> One potato, two potato,
> Three potato, four.
> Five potato, six potato,
> Seven potato, more.
> O U T spells out.
>
> clenched, apparently resembling potatoes. The command for this was
> "Spuds up!". The counter would knock each spud in turn with one of his
> own, on the stress points in the rhyme and the spud which was hit by
> "out" was dropped. The counting started again from the next spud. Any
> person who had no spuds left was knocked out. You could either use this
> to choose a loser (first to drop two spuds) or a winner (last in). The
> counter included his own spuds which were kept clenched throughout by
> knocking them in turn with the other, to keep them in the round.
>
> I haven't thought of this for more than 40 years.
This reminds of two of the more obnoxious students (both male,
probably both 16) who I taught math to during the past six weeks.
They were always hitting each other and threatening to fight.
(Student 1, to me: "Can I hit him?" Student 2, to 1: "Do it!") One
of their few routines that amused me was "Let's settle this like men!"
and then with alacrity doing rock-scissors-paper.
--
Jerry Friedman
John Varela
<haye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 23:20:22 +0100, "grabber" <g...@bb.er> wrote:
>
> >> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan.
> >
> >"Hollers" doesn't sound like BrE to me. When I were a lad it was "squeals"
> >(2 syllables).
> >
> >> And I think it was "by his toe".
> >
> >Same here.
>
> Mine (South Africa 1950s) was "nigger" and "hollers" and "by his toe".
New Orleans, 1940s, the same except "by the toe". When our children
were of an age to learn counting rhymes (South Jersey, late
'60s-early '70s) it was "tiger", learned from other children.
--
John Varela
Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email
John Dawkins
<c17a03ae-c6af-46ec...@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for
> a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of
> English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
>
> Eeny meeny miny mo,
> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
> If it hollers let'im go,
> Eeny meeny miny mo.
>
> Farhad
Eenie meanie miney moe
Catch a tiger by the toe
If he hollers make him pay
Fifty dollars every day
My mother told me to pick the very best one
And you are (not) IT!
--
J.
John Varela
<mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
> >We used to count "spuds" at primary school:
> >
> >One potato, two potato,
> >Three potato, four.
> >Five potato, six potato,
> >Seven potato, more.
> >O U T spells out.
>
> In my world, only *girls* did that.
I don't know that it was exclusively girls, but certainly mostly
girls who used one-potato in New Orleans, 1940s. The following was
sometimes inserted between the fourth and fifth lines:
My mother and your mother
Were hanging out the clothes.
My mother punched your mother
Right square in the nose.
"Clothes" was pronounced as a true rhyme with "nose". Modern kids
would have no idea what "hanging out the clothes" means.
I can't recall any counting rhymes other than eenie-meenie-minie-moe
and one-potato-two-potato.
HVS
-snip-
> My mother and your mother
> Were hanging out the clothes.
> My mother punched your mother
> Right square in the nose.
>
> "Clothes" was pronounced as a true rhyme with "nose". Modern
> kids would have no idea what "hanging out the clothes" means.
I think you mean "modern kids in North America".
There are lots and lots of washing lines still in use here in the UK
-- and not just in poor areas.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Paul Wolff
>Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>
>> the Omrud skrev:
>>
>>> The participants stood in a circle with both fists extended and
>>> clenched, apparently resembling potatoes. The command for this
>>> was "Spuds up!". The counter would knock each spud in turn
>>> with one of his own, on the stress points in the rhyme and the
>>> spud which was hit by "out" was dropped.
>>
>> That's funny. We did exactly the same (in Denmark) when I was a
>> kid. We didn't have a spuds-up-command though, and potatoes were
>> not part of our rhyme or thinking. The knock on fists was just a
>> way of marking the count.
>>
>> This is the rhyme we used most often:
>>
>> ente dente fedte klente
>> bombarderuske sniske snuske
>> hummer sardiner laks rosiner
>> mandel lakrids skidt og kanel
>>
>> The first two lines have no meaning. The words are just sounds.
>> The two last lines mean:
>>
>> lobsters sardines salmons raisins
>> almonds liquorice dirt and cinnamon
>>
>You vant German and Austrian rhymes?
>http://jungschar.untermais.net/spiele/reime.htm
>
>
>Ene, mene, ming, mang,
>kling, klang, eia, weia, weg.
>
>Ich und du, <--- This is the most popular/common one.
>Müllers Esel,
>das bist du.
>
>Ene, mene Tintenfass,
>geh in die Schul' und lerne was.
>Wenn du was gelernt hast,
>komm nach Haus' und sage was.
>
>Eins, zwei, drei
>und du bist frei.
>
>eine alte Frau kocht Rüben.
>Eine alte Frau kocht Speck,
>und du bist weg.
>
>hat ein Säcklein auf dem Rück',
>schlägt es an den Pfosten,
>Pfosten kracht,
>Männlein lacht:
>tipp-tipp-tapp-
>du bist ab!
>
>Das ist mein Apfel,
>und das ist mein Birn,
>und wenn du mich fangen willst,
>
>Auf dem Berge Sinai
>wohnt der Schneider Kickriki.
>Schaut mit seiner Brille raus:
>Eins - zwei - drei
>und du bist raus!
>
>Ene, mene, meck,
>und du bist weg!
>
>Eine kleine Mickey Mouse
>zieht sich die Hosen aus,
>zieht sie wieder an,
>und du bist dran!
>
>In einer Eisenbahn
>fuhr eine Dickmadam.
>Die Eisenbahn, die krachte,
>die Dickmadam, sie lachte.
>Eins, zwei, drei
>und du bist frei!
>
>Drauß bist du noch lange nicht,
>sag mir erst, wie alt du bist!
>
>hol ein Korb mit Kuchen raus.
>Mir ein, dir ein,
>
>Eine kleine Spitzmaus
>lief ums Rathaus,
>wollte sich was kaufen,
>hatte sich verlaufen,
>kam die Mutter mit dem Stock,
>haut sie auf den Unterrock.
>Unterrock war lose,
>haut sie auf die Hose.
>Hose war kaputt,
>und du bist futt.
>
>die Stiege kracht,
>das Haus fällt ein,
>und du mußt's sein!
>
>Eins, zwei, drei, vier, fünf, sechs, sieben,
>ein Tiroler hat geschrieben:
>"Liebe Mutter, sei so gut,
>schick mir ein Tirolerhut.
>denn er soll zur Hochzeit sein."
>Eins, zwei, drei,
>und du bist frei.
>
>Ene, mene, dubbe dene,
>dubbe dene dalia,
>ebbe, bebbe, bembio,
>bio, bio, buff.
>
>Auf einem bi-ba-bunten Berge
>wohnen bi-ba-bunte Zwerge.
>Und die bi-ba-bunten Zwerge
>haben bi-ba-bunte Kinder.
>Und die bi-ba-bunten Kinder
>essen jeden Tag ein Ei:
>Eins, zwei, drei,
>und du bist frei!
>
>mach dich auf die Strümpf,
>mach dich auf die Schuh,
>sonst bist's du!
>
>1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,
>eine alte Frau kocht Speck.
>Wub, wub, wub, da war sie weg.
>Wub, wub, wub, da kam sie wieder,
>hinter ihr lief eine Maus,
>
>Meine Güte, in der Tüte
>saß ein Kater, macht Theater;
>kam der Bär, macht noch mehr,
>kam die Maus, und du bist drauß!
>
>Der Kuckuck auf dem Zaune saß,
>da kam der Regen, macht' ihn naß,
>dann kam der liebe Sonnenschein,
>und diese, diese soll es sein.
>
>Eene de meene de micke de mo,
>abe de babe de bombasto,
>du bist drauß!
>
>Ritz und Ratz
>Maus und Katz
>Katz und Maus
>
>Eins, zwei, drei,
>du bist frei!
>
>Gib dich drein:
>
>Ene mene miste
>es rappelt in der Kiste
>ene mene meck
>und Du bist weg!
>
>Pusteblume,
>1, 2, 3
>und du bist dran!
>
>Hinterm Kuhstall
>spielt ein Ochse Fussball
>keiner hat's gesehn
>und du darfst gehn.
>
>Ene mene misste,
>wer klappert in der Kiste?
>
>Eine kleine Dickmadamme,
>fuhr mit der Eisenbahn,
>Eisenbahn krachte
>Dickmadamme lachte,
>lachte bis der Schaffner kam
>und sie mit nach Hause nahm.
>
>Ibsen, Dibsen,
>silber Nixen
>ibsen dibsen daus
>und du bist raus!
>
>Auf einem Gummi-Gummi Berg,
>der Gummi-Gummi Zwerg hatte eine Gummi-Gummi Frau,
>die Gummi-Gummi Frau hatte ein Gummi-Gummi Kind,
>das Gummi-Gummi Kind hatte eine Gummi-Gummi Hose,
>die Gummi-Gummi Hose hatte ein Gummi-Gummi Loch
>und du bist es doch.
>
>Dein Vater ist ein reicher Mann,
>der sich fast alles leisten kann.
>und darum wollen wir dir sagen:
>Du bist sein Kind
>und du bist frei!
>
>D'Katz goot uf Walliselle.
>goht sie wieder hei.
>Biff, baff, buff
>und du bisch duss.
>
>Eine kleine Mikey Maus
>zog sich mal die Hosen aus,
>zog sie wieder an
>und du bist dran.
>Dran bist du noch lange nicht
>sag mir erst wie alt du bist.
>... ist eine schlechte Zahl.
>... hat ins Bett geschissen
>Mutter hats gesehen
>und du musst gehen!
>
>kommt beim tigår an
>und du bist drån.
>
>Eins, zwei, drei
>Butter in den Brei.
>Salz auf den Speck,
>und du bist weg!
>
>Henriette
>gold'ne Kette
>gold'ner Schuh
>
>Eene Meene Mopel,
>Wer frißt Popel?
>Süß und saftig,
>Eine Mark und achtzig,
>Eine Mark und zehn,
>Und Du kannst gehn!
>
>10 Zigaretten
>hüpfen wieder raus
>und du bist drauß.
>
>In einer Bude saß ne Trude
>Kopf voller Läuse
>didel dadel däuse
>didel dadel datsch
>wie heißt dein heiß geliebter Schatz?
>... hat sich küssen lassen
>mitten auf der Modestraße
>Mutti hats gesehn
>und du musst gehn.
>
>Auf einem See See See,
>da stand ein Reh Reh Reh,
>riebi bibi tasch
>...(Name) hat sich küssen lassen
>mitten auf der Kaiser Strassen,
>Mutti hat’s gesehen und du musst gehen,
>gehen musst du noch lange nicht,
>sag mir erst wie alt du bist.
>
>Coca Cola mit Aroma,
>Coca Cola mit Geschmack,
>und du bist ab!
>
>Ufem Klavier
>stoht es Bier
>wers trinkt
>de stinkt.
>
>Eins, zwei, drei, vier
>Papa braucht Bier.
>Vier, drei, zwei, eins
>Mama braucht keins.
>
>mach dich auf die Strümpf',
>mach dich auf die Schuh',
>sonst bist's du!
>
>geht das Hexeneinmaleins.
>Kinder tragen Blumenkränze,
>Hexen tragen Rattenschwänze,
>Hexenhaus hat gute Sachen
>und du musst die Hexe machen.
>
--
Paul
Mark Brader
>>> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used
>>> to be "Ten little n- boys"?
Mark Brader:
>> That's backwards; "Ten Little Indians" is the original version.
>> It's the Agatha Christie novel named after it (and now more often
>> called "And Then There Were None") that had its title changed in
>> the other direction. See my posting here on the subject in 2006.
Dave Hatunen:
> I'm a bit confused here. The original title of the story was "Ten
> Little Niggers"
That's what I said.
> but it was subsequently published in the USA as
> "And Then There Were None".
That title came later. The title first used in the US was "Ten Little
Indians", as I said.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "If we gave people a choice, there would be chaos."
m...@vex.net | -- Dick McDonald
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Mark Brader
> Eeny meeny miny mo,
> Catch a rabbit by the toe...
Of course, the thing about these chants is that if you execute them
correctly, the result is deterministic, not random.
I've just remembered a scene in the Marx Brothers movie "Duck Soup"
where they joke about this. Chico is picking a "volunteer" for a
dangerous mission and is disconcerted to realize just before he hits
the last word that it's going to turn out to be himself. So he says
"I did it wrong" and tries again...
The thing is that Chico's chant was completely different from "Eeny
meeny miny mo" or however you spell it. I don't know if it was in
a foreign language or just nonsense words.
Oh, there's a dialogue transcript at <http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/d/duck-soup-script-transcript-marx.html>:
WE DRAW LOTS. WAIT ! I GOT IT.
RRRINGSPOT, VONZA, TWOZA, ZIG-ZAG-ZAV, POPTI, VINAGA.
HAREM, SCAREM, MERCHAN, TAREM, TEIR, TORE --
I DID IT WRONG. WAIT, WAIT, I START HERE.
RRRINGSPOT, VONZA, TWOZA, ZIG-ZAG-ZAV, POPTI, VINAGA.
HAREM, SCAREM, MERCHAN, TAREM, TEIR, TORE --
THAT'S NO GOOD TOO. I GOT IT !
RRRINGSPOT, BUCK !
And *now* someone else is, as they say, volunteered. Anyone know
*this* chant from anywhere else? Or, conversely, does anyone know
if it was made up for the movie?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, m...@vex.net
"A system which depends upon the secrecy of its algorithm
is effectively a single-key code." -- William Brown II
R H Draney
>
>Eenie meanie miney moe
>Catch a tiger by the toe
>If he hollers make him pay
>Fifty dollars every day
>My mother told me to pick the very best one
>And you are (not) IT!
Yes...with the addition of "not", you could drag out the selection process for
most of an afternoon, eliminating playmates one-by-one until you were left with
just one "it"....
There's a counting-out rhyme in what I assume is mock Italian used by Chico Marx
in one of their movies (I want to say "Horse Feathers", during the football
game)....r
R H Draney
>
>I've just remembered a scene in the Marx Brothers movie "Duck Soup"
>where they joke about this. Chico is picking a "volunteer" for a
>dangerous mission and is disconcerted to realize just before he hits
>the last word that it's going to turn out to be himself. So he says
>"I did it wrong" and tries again...
>
>The thing is that Chico's chant was completely different from "Eeny
>meeny miny mo" or however you spell it. I don't know if it was in
>a foreign language or just nonsense words.
>
>Oh, there's a dialogue transcript at
><http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/d/duck-soup-script-transcript-marx.html>:
>
> WE DRAW LOTS. WAIT ! I GOT IT.
> RRRINGSPOT, VONZA, TWOZA, ZIG-ZAG-ZAV, POPTI, VINAGA.
> HAREM, SCAREM, MERCHAN, TAREM, TEIR, TORE --
>
> I DID IT WRONG. WAIT, WAIT, I START HERE.
> RRRINGSPOT, VONZA, TWOZA, ZIG-ZAG-ZAV, POPTI, VINAGA.
> HAREM, SCAREM, MERCHAN, TAREM, TEIR, TORE --
>
> THAT'S NO GOOD TOO. I GOT IT !
>
> RRRINGSPOT, BUCK !
>
>And *now* someone else is, as they say, volunteered. Anyone know
>*this* chant from anywhere else? Or, conversely, does anyone know
>if it was made up for the movie?
Oh, *there* it is...I thought I'd gone to the end of the thread, but you changed
the subject line....
Chico *does* recite a few counting rhymes, including one containing "eeny,
meenie, miney, mo" during the "Horse Feathers" football game....r
R H Draney
>
>This reminds of two of the more obnoxious students (both male,
>probably both 16) who I taught math to during the past six weeks.
>They were always hitting each other and threatening to fight.
>(Student 1, to me: "Can I hit him?" Student 2, to 1: "Do it!") One
>of their few routines that amused me was "Let's settle this like men!"
>and then with alacrity doing rock-scissors-paper.
I hope they at least called it rochambeau....r
Hatunen
wrote:
>James Silverton:
>>>> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used
>>>> to be "Ten little n- boys"?
>
>Mark Brader:
>>> That's backwards; "Ten Little Indians" is the original version.
>>> It's the Agatha Christie novel named after it (and now more often
>>> called "And Then There Were None") that had its title changed in
>>> the other direction. See my posting here on the subject in 2006.
>
>Dave Hatunen:
>> I'm a bit confused here. The original title of the story was "Ten
>> Little Niggers"
>
>That's what I said.
>
>> but it was subsequently published in the USA as
>> "And Then There Were None".
>
>That title came later. The title first used in the US was "Ten Little
>Indians", as I said.
Not according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_Then_There_Were_None which says,
"And Then There Were None is a work of detective fiction by
Agatha Christie and first published in the UK by the Collins
Crime Club on 6 November 1939 under the title of Ten Little
Niggers and in US by Dodd, Mead and Company in January 1940 under
the title of And Then There Were None."
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Wood Avens
wrote:
>On 13 Jul 2009, John Varela wrote
>
>-snip-
>
>> My mother and your mother
>> Were hanging out the clothes.
>> My mother punched your mother
>> Right square in the nose.
>>
>> "Clothes" was pronounced as a true rhyme with "nose". Modern
>> kids would have no idea what "hanging out the clothes" means.
>
>I think you mean "modern kids in North America".
>
>There are lots and lots of washing lines still in use here in the UK
>-- and not just in poor areas.
Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing" rather
than "hanging out the clothes".
HVS
Good point.
the Omrud
I had always vaguely known that Dad was confirmed in 1939 or thereabouts
by the Bishop of Harare or Mombasa or somewhere similar. It was decades
after I first learned this that he happened to mention that said Bishop
was, of course, white. This had never occurred to me.
--
David
a new Hilton
the Omrud
> the Omrud wrote:
>> Farhad wrote:
>>> for a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety
>>> of English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
>>>
>>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
>>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
>>> If it hollers let'im go,
>>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
>>
>> One potato, two potato,
>> Three potato, four.
>> Five potato, six potato,
>> Seven potato, more.
>> O U T spells out.
>
>
> Ip dip dip
> My little ship
> Sailing on the water
> Like a cup and saucer
> You are not in IT
That must be NW England - my children did something similar which always
turned into "ip dip dog shit" and sent them into paroxisms of giggles.
the Omrud
> the Omrud filted:
>> We used to count "spuds" at primary school:
>>
>> One potato, two potato,
>> Three potato, four.
>> Five potato, six potato,
>> Seven potato, more.
>> O U T spells out.
>>
>
> time:
I'm thinking of somewhere around 1963. I think the Banana Splits were a
little later.
the Omrud
How very strange. I don't think girls did it at all in my world, or if
they did then we boys didn't notice.
the Omrud
As long as it wasn't rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock.
Donna Richoux
ABE Books agrees with that order. It shows "Ten Little Indians" was used
soon thereafter, when the same story was made into a three-act play,
produced in two theaters in New York in 1944 and 1945, and published in
book form in 1946.
IMDb shows that film and TV productions used various names. The 1946
20thC-Fox version used "And Then There Were None."
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
James Silverton
> As long as it wasn't rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock.
It's peI might recommend a book that has counting-out rhymes not
mentioned here and also other children's rhymes. It's worth looking for
and is "I saw Esau", ed. by Iona and Peter Opie and illustrated by
Maurice Sendak. My copy is from Candlwick Press, 1992.
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
James Silverton
>> As long as it wasn't rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock.
> It's peI might recommend a book that has counting-out rhymes
> not mentioned here and also other children's rhymes. It's
> worth looking for and is "I saw Esau", ed. by Iona and Peter
> Opie and illustrated by Maurice Sendak. My copy is from
> Candlwick Press, 1992. --
I apologize for the unlikely first few words but my connection hiccupped
as I sent the message. It was McAfee deciding to install an update at a
bad moment.
Robin Bignall
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>the Omrud wrote:
>> Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> In message
>>> <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec...@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Farhad <fvaf...@gmail.com> writes
>>>> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for
>>>> a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of
>>>> English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
>>>>
>>>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
>>>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
>>>> If it hollers let'im go,
>>>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
>>>>
>>> The British version (which I learned as a child) used to be:
>>> "Eeny meeny miny mo,
>>> Catch a nigger by the toe,
>>> If he screams, let'im go,
>>> Eeny meeny miny mo."
>>
>> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. And I
>> think it was "by his toe".
>>
>
>I've heard "hollers", but that wasn't a word most of us really knew,
>which is perhaps why our version used "bites".
That doesn't scan, and neither does "scream". I learned "hollers"
just like others, and discovered its meaning from that rhyme.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
Default User
> Jerry Friedman filted:
> >
> > This reminds of two of the more obnoxious students (both male,
> > probably both 16) who I taught math to during the past six weeks.
> > They were always hitting each other and threatening to fight.
> > (Student 1, to me: "Can I hit him?" Student 2, to 1: "Do it!") One
> > of their few routines that amused me was "Let's settle this like
> > men!" and then with alacrity doing rock-scissors-paper.
>
> I hope they at least called it rochambeau....r
I thought that was where they kick each other in the nuts[1].
1. Maybe that's just on South Park
Brian
--
Day 161 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
Robin Bignall
wrote:
>On 13 Jul 2009, Wood Avens wrote
>
>> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:44:38 +0100, HVS
>> <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 13 Jul 2009, John Varela wrote
>>>
>>> -snip-
>>>
>>>> My mother and your mother
>>>> Were hanging out the clothes.
>>>> My mother punched your mother
>>>> Right square in the nose.
>>>>
>>>> "Clothes" was pronounced as a true rhyme with "nose". Modern
>>>> kids would have no idea what "hanging out the clothes" means.
>>>
>>> I think you mean "modern kids in North America".
>>>
>>> There are lots and lots of washing lines still in use here in
>>> the UK -- and not just in poor areas.
>>
>> Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing"
>> rather than "hanging out the clothes".
>
>Good point.
Not in my local dialect. Monday was traditionally washing day, but
you hung out the clothes to dry.
My right-hand neighbour has a traditional washing line along the
garden, and my left-hand neighbour has one of those folding things
that opens up like a set of string umbrellas. (Something like this but
with two or three levels.)
http://www.philipmorris.uk.com/dept/Brabantia-Rotary-Airers-Washing-Lines
The dog spooks every time he sees it going up over the fence.
R H Draney
>
>Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> (Student 1, to me: "Can I hit him?" Student 2, to 1: "Do it!") One
>> of their few routines that amused me was "Let's settle this like men!"
>> and then with alacrity doing rock-scissors-paper.
>
>As long as it wasn't rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock.
I've recently been made aware of the existence of a vast assortment of games
isomorphic to rock-scissors-paper...my favorite was
kitten-tinfoil-microwave....r
Ian Jackson
<docr...@ntlworld.com> writes
Oh, I think you judge too harshly!
The comma which follows "screams" (or "squeals") invites a one-syllable
elongation of the preceding word, so the line does more-or-less scan.
PS: I confess I now believe that it WAS "squeal", and not "scream".
--
Ian
Donna Richoux
> In article <Dkt6m.104716$ZB1....@newsfe11.ams2>, grabber <g...@bb.er> wrote:
> >
> >"the Omrud" <usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:tgt6m.55412$OO7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> >> Ian Jackson wrote:
> >>
> >> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan.
> >
> >"Hollers" doesn't sound like BrE to me. When I were a lad it was "squeals"
> >(2 syllables).
>
> It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever
> came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now.
>
It's closely related to the attention-calling "hallo" and "halloo," says
MW. Which makes it akin to "hello."
...Is "halloo" as a verb an Americanism? All the hits I see with Google
Books for "hallooed" are old American ones. We had this old song in a
book and I assumed it was British, but now I see it listed as American.
It begins:
We hunted and we halloed,
And the first thing we did find,
Was a barn in the meadow,
And that we left behind.
Look ye there.
One said it was the barn, but the other said nay ;
He said it was a Meeting House with the steeple blown away.
Oh, it's the spelling -- "halloa'd" turns up Punch and Shakespeare and
so on.
Glenn Knickerbocker
> <flgb...@ameritech.net> writes
> >As for the potato rhyme, I recall "seven potato OR."
> Me too (NE England). But it doesn't make sense, does it!
It sorta maybe does when you're used to seeing TV commercials for
Ore-Ida potato products.
�R
Evan Kirshenbaum
> James Silverton:
>> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used
>> to be "Ten little n- boys"?
>
> That's backwards; "Ten Little Indians" is the original version.
Actually, I see John Brown's Ten Little Indian Boys to 1859, but an
earlier version using "fingers" (and referring to an event in the
story):
Susy Miller, she burnt her little finger,
Susy Miller, she burnt her little finger;
Susy Miller, she burnt her little finger.
One little finger burnt;
One little, two little, three little fingers,
Four little, five little, six little fingers;
Seven little, eight little, nine little fingers--
Nine little fingers burnt!
[Elizabeth Prentiss], _Little Susy's Six Birthdays_,
1853
This may well be a play on an earlier song, but it would have been a
few years before John Brown became a household name, assuming that the
song refers to the John Brown who led the raid at Harper's Ferry in
1859 (and was hanged for it) and about whom "John Brown's Body" was
written.
> It's the Agatha Christie novel named after it (and now more often
> called "And Then There Were None") that had its title changed in
> the other direction. See my posting here on the subject in 2006.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |And the wildest dreams of Kew
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | are the facts of Khatmandhu,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |And the crimes of Clapham
| chaste in Martaban.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |
(650)857-7572 | Rudyard Kipling
James Silverton
D'ye ken John Peel?
"Peel's View Halloo would ha wakened the dead"
Robert Bannister
Is scansion important in magical chants? We mainly used "one potato..."
anyway.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote:
>> Farhad wrote:
>>> a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of
>>> English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
>>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
>>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
>>> If it hollers let'im go,
>>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
>>
>> One potato, two potato,
>> Three potato, four.
>> Five potato, six potato,
>> Seven potato, more.
>> O U T spells out.
>
>
Girls had much more complicated magic for skipping.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing" rather
> than "hanging out the clothes".
>
"hanging out the washing" for me, or "hanging the washing out" - I'm not
very tall, but I wouldn't use "up".
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> "Farhad":
>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
>> Catch a rabbit by the toe...
>
> Of course, the thing about these chants is that if you execute them
> correctly, the result is deterministic, not random.
I can't remember how classes were numbered back in my English primary
schools, but I would have been in the equivalent of Grade 5 before I
realised that you could deliberately choose where the chant was going to
end up. This quickly resulted in a large variety of newer chants - wish
I could remember some of them.
--
Rob Bannister
Frank ess
When I was responsible for a portion of the work associated with
upkeep of my newborn thirteen-years-younger sister, I "did the
laundry" and then "hung the laundry out to dry".
My one-year-older cousin (an eventual Miss USA) taught me how to hang
the sheets so that in the constant west wind they would beat on
themselves and be "fluffier".
More recently, we used one of the umbrella-like folded clotheslines
for a year or more, until the fruit trees grew to usurp the space,
when we reverted to the gas-fired tumbler.
--
Frank ess
R H Draney
>
>R H Draney wrote:
>> the Omrud filted:
>>>
>>
>> It was alluded to in the theme song for "The Banana Splits" right around that
>> time:
>
>I'm thinking of somewhere around 1963. I think the Banana Splits were a
>little later.
Yes, in fact, the hiatus between the two seasons (=BrE "series") of the original
Banana Splits series (!=BrE "series) was forty years ago this summer....r
Pat Durkin
news:360511c8-a097-441d...@j12g2000vbl.googlegroups.com
> On Jul 13, 9:24 am, "Pat Durkin" <durk...@sbc.com> wrote:
>> "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:9655cfcc-26e4-484d...@l2g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 12, 6:01 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> James Silverton wrote:
>>>> Frank wrote on Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:45:38 -0700:
>>
>>>> In kindergarten, my kids learned
>>>> "Eeny, miny mo!
>>>> Catch a tiger by the toe
>>>> If he wriggles,
>>>> Let him go"
>>
>>> I learned
>>
>>> Eeny-Meenie-Miney-Mo
>>> Catch a tiger by the toe.
>>> If he hollers let him go.
>>> My mother said to pick this very one.
>>> Out goes y-o-u.
>>
>>> In the sixties on Long Island, NY.
>>
>> Jerry: At about the same time, I learned the same first three lines.
>> "Eeny
>> meenie miney mo" was repeated after "let him go", and the last part,
>> which was optional, went, "My mother told me to pick the very best
>> one
>> and you are it." Or maybe "you are out".
>>
>> Pat: I heard that ending occasionally.
>>
>> Another ending (unless I am making some bad association) was:
>> If he hollers let him go
>> But make him pay
>> Fifty dollars evey day.
>> One
>> Two
>> Three etc.
>>
>> That was actually a bullying thing, because they never did let "him"
>> (the last person touched or counted on "go" or "day") go, but instead
>> braced him (as in London Bridge's "build it up with sticks and
>> stones,
>> etc", two people circled their arms around the victim) and roughly
>> jostled him or held him while the other kids ran up and punched
>> him.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't think we ever used this to determine which person to choose,
> but which inanimate item. The version I learned in Indianapolis in
> the early '50s was
>
> Eeny meeney miney moe
> Catch a frog by the toe
> If he hollers
> Make him pay
> Fifty dollars every day
> My mother told me
> To choose the very best one
> Y O U spells you.
We said that one, also, but with "O U T spells out goes you! (or Mary,
or John or other)". That "you!" was usually accompanied by a fierce
poke in the chest of the chosen one.
Hmm. I seem to recall a lot of physical stuff going on in those simple
games. Even "Duck! Duck! Goose!" was an excuse for hitting; And "Tag!
Your IT!"
>
> What I hear nowadays has "tiger" and drops lines 3 through 5
> entirely. (I wondered about that frog in the version I learned -- How
> can you catch a toe on a webbed foot? Frogs get "it," not "he" and
> "him." Where would a frog get money? -- for decades until I heard
> what the original word had been.)
>
> The potato counting was a game all by itself. I think. Like A-
> tisket, A-tasket and London Bridge.
Steve Hayes
<my.sp...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 2009-07-13 at 09:31 +0100, ke...@cam.ac.uk wrote:
>> In article <Dkt6m.104716$ZB1....@newsfe11.ams2>, grabber <g...@bb.er> wrote:
>> It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever
>> came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now.
>
>"If he winges, let him go" just doesn't have the right _Schwung_, innit.
I learnt "hollers" as a child.
I never heard "winge" (or "whinge") before the 1970s, when I was an adult --
about the same time as I learnt "hassle". It simply wasn't part of my vocab
before that.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Nick
Why doessn't it scan? I've got a tin ear, but I read it as a pair of
"de-da, de-da, de-da, de" lines, then a pair (break the line at the
comma) of "de de de" lines, and then a repeat of the first one. Not the
same as 4 with the same pattern - more like a limerick in fact - but
what's wrong with it?
--
Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk
development version: http://canalplan.eu
Nick
> ...Is "halloo" as a verb an Americanism? All the hits I see with Google
> Books for "hallooed" are old American ones. We had this old song in a
> book and I assumed it was British, but now I see it listed as American.
> It begins:
Bunthorne. (annoyed - to Patience) I will read it if you bid me!
Patience. (much frightened) You can if you like!
Bunthorne. It is a wild, weird, fleshy thing; yet very tender, very
yearning, very precious. It is called, "Oh, Hollow! Hollow! Hollow!"
Patience. Is it a hunting song?
Bunthorne. A hunting song? No, it is not a hunting song. It is the wail
of the poet's heart on discovering that everything is commonplace. To
understand it, cling passionately to one another and think of faint
lilies
Nick
<URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We%27re_Going_to_Hang_out_the_Washing_on_the_Siegfried_Line>
Steve Hayes
>On 13 Jul 2009, Wood Avens wrote
>
>> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:44:38 +0100, HVS
>> <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>> Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing"
>> rather than "hanging out the clothes".
>
>Good point.
So what did the blackbird peck off then?
Philp was in the counting house
counting out the money
The Queen was in the parlour
eating bread and honey
when a bomb came in the window
and made them all go funny.
As for the maid, she lost a good deal more than her nose
Ian Jackson
<rob...@bigpond.com> writes
Siegfried_Line>
I think you would only hang it "up" if you were hanging it up indoors,
probably on a clothes horse (to dry, or to air).
--
Ian
Ian Jackson
<3-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> writes
>Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> writes:
>
>> Wood Avens wrote:
>>
>>> Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing" rather
>>> than "hanging out the clothes".
>>>
>>
>> "hanging out the washing" for me, or "hanging the washing out" - I'm
>> not very tall, but I wouldn't use "up".
>
><URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We%27re_Going_to_Hang_out_the_Washing_
>on_the_Siegfried_Line>
Snap!
--
Ian
the Omrud
> the Omrud filted:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>>> (Student 1, to me: "Can I hit him?" Student 2, to 1: "Do it!") One
>>> of their few routines that amused me was "Let's settle this like men!"
>>> and then with alacrity doing rock-scissors-paper.
>> As long as it wasn't rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock.
>
> I've recently been made aware of the existence of a vast assortment of games
> isomorphic to rock-scissors-paper...my favorite was
> kitten-tinfoil-microwave....r
By coincidence it was a clue on "Only Connect" a rather entertaining
quiz programme on BBC4, last night. You have to guess the link between
clues - each of them was a different country's version of rock, paper,
scissors. I can't remember them now, but I bet they're in WikiP.
--
David
a new Hilton
Amethyst Deceiver
usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com says...
>
> John Dean wrote:
> > the Omrud wrote:
> >> Farhad wrote:
> >>> for a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety
> >>> of English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
> >>>
> >>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
> >>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
> >>> If it hollers let'im go,
> >>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
> >>
> >> One potato, two potato,
> >> Three potato, four.
> >> Five potato, six potato,
> >> Seven potato, more.
> >> O U T spells out.
> >
> >
> > Ip dip dip
> > My little ship
> > Sailing on the water
> > Like a cup and saucer
> > You are not in IT
>
> That must be NW England - my children did something similar which always
> turned into "ip dip dog shit" and sent them into paroxisms of giggles.
YoungBloke came home recently with his version:
Ip dip doo doo
the cat got flu flu
the dog did too too
out goes you.
Of course, he's in Reception. By year 2 I expect it'll be "ip dip dog
shit", which is what we said at school too.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
Jerry Friedman
> t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
> > ...Is "halloo" as a verb an Americanism? All the hits I see with Google
> > Books for "hallooed" are old American ones.
I'll just mention a poem I like, which has the verb "hallo". It's
"Madman's Song", by Elinor Wylie.
http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/madman-s-song/
> Bunthorne. (annoyed - to Patience) I will read it if you bid me!
>
> Patience. (much frightened) You can if you like!
>
> Bunthorne. It is a wild, weird, fleshy thing; yet very tender, very
> yearning, very precious. It is called, "Oh, Hollow! Hollow! Hollow!"
>
> Patience. Is it a hunting song?
>
> Bunthorne. A hunting song? No, it is not a hunting song. It is the wail
> of the poet's heart on discovering that everything is commonplace. To
> understand it, cling passionately to one another and think of faint
> lilies
Which is based on the forms "hollo" and "holla". I think the latter
is the direct ancestor of "holler".
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
wrote:
> In article <h3g5os$pv...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> usenet.om...@gEXPUNGEmail.com says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > John Dean wrote:
> > > the Omrud wrote:
> > >> Farhad wrote:
> > >>> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person
> > >>> for a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety
> > >>> of English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is:
>
> > >>> Eeny meeny miny mo,
> > >>> Catch a rabbit by the toe,
> > >>> If it hollers let'im go,
> > >>> Eeny meeny miny mo.
> > >> We used to count "spuds" at primary school:
>
> > >> One potato, two potato,
> > >> Three potato, four.
> > >> Five potato, six potato,
> > >> Seven potato, more.
> > >> O U T spells out.
>
> > > Uh huh. We did that, as well as "eeny meeny". We also did
>
> > > Ip dip dip
> > > My little ship
> > > Sailing on the water
> > > Like a cup and saucer
> > > You are not in IT
>
> > That must be NW England - my children did something similar which always
> > turned into "ip dip dog shit" and sent them into paroxisms of giggles.
"Paroxysms", if I may be so bold.
> YoungBloke came home recently with his version:
> Ip dip doo doo
> the cat got flu flu
> the dog did too too
> out goes you.
>
> Of course, he's in Reception.
For my fellow Americans, this appears to be about like kindergarten.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_(School)
> By year 2 I expect it'll be "ip dip dog
> shit", which is what we said at school too.
Disgraceful. How much more pleasant is the speech of clean-minded,
high-souled, wholesome American [Sorry, can't go on.]
--
Jerry Friedman
Dr Peter Young
[snip]
> Which is based on the forms "hollo" and "holla". I think the latter
> is the direct ancestor of "holler".
Shakespeare has Falstaff say in King Henry V, Part 2: "As for my
voice, I have lost it with hollaing and the singing of anthems".
Usually pronounced, "hollering", I think.
With best wishes,
Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Donna Richoux
> On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:02:30 -0400, "James Silverton"
> <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used
> >to be "Ten little n- boys"?
>
> To the confusion of American kids who don't realize that Indians
> are Asians in this regard.
I understand what you are saying about American ("Red") Indians vs.
British ("East") Indians. But the way I see it, your concern would hold
true if the British "Asian" version had long been established, which I
don't think it was. Everything I've found so far points to American
origins.
As Wikipedia shows, Septimus Winner of Philadelphia published "10 Little
Injuns" in 1868, followed by Frank J. Green's "Ten Little Niggers" in
1869.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Little_Indians
What Wikipedia fails to include at all is "Old John Brown," published in
1849 by the Gibson Troupe, available in facsimile at:
https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/13371?show=full
The tune is familiar (Finnegan, Belinda, Paw Paw Patch, etc), and the
lyrics are:
Old John Brown had a little Ingin,
Old John Brown had a little Ingin,
Old John Brown had a little Ingin,
One little Ingin boy.
One little, two little, three little Ingins
Four little, five little, six little Ingins
Seven little, eight little, nine little Ingins
Ten little Ingin boys.
Ten little, nine little, eight little Ingins
Seven little, six little five little Ingins
Four little, three little, two little Ingins
One little Ingin boy.
The 1859 Yale Literary Magazine has several jocular references to this
poem or song, with specific mentions of North American Indians.
Google Books also has references in the 1870s and later.
This song not the subtractive "And then there were three" idea, but it
does include a downward count and I have to think it influenced the
longer form.
the Omrud
You may. There was no spell chequer in the Hilton.
--
David
Skitt
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> Amethyst Deceiver wrote:
>>> usenet.om...@gEXPUNGEmail.com says...
>>>> That must be NW England - my children did something similar which
>>>> always turned into "ip dip dog shit" and sent them into paroxisms
>>>> of giggles.
>>
>> "Paroxysms", if I may be so bold.
>
> You may. There was no spell chequer in the Hilton.
Chequer? Of spells?
--
Skitt (AmE)
the Omrud
Quite.
--
David
Evan Kirshenbaum
> What Wikipedia fails to include at all is "Old John Brown,"
> published in 1849 by the Gibson Troupe, available in facsimile at:
> https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/13371?show=full
Okay, that predates the 1853 "ten little fingers" version I found,
assuming the dating is correct. (I don't see a date on any of the
images.) Probably not the same John Brown as in "John Brown's Body"
then. The fact that the earliest I had found was
> The 1859 Yale Literary Magazine has several jocular references to
> this poem or song, with specific mentions of North American Indians.
which was at the height of that John Brown's notoriety (and the year
he was hanged).
> Google Books also has references in the 1870s and later.
>
> This song not the subtractive "And then there were three" idea, but
>it does include a downward count and I have to think it influenced
>the longer form.
The earliest "... and then there were none" I see is from 1873, as
"The Ten Little Niggers", reproduced in the December, 1873,
_St. Nicholas_, with "one little word [changed] throughout the poem,
so as not to hurt anybody's feelings", as "The Ten Little Black Boys".
The reviewer says
The book is English--I'd wager my stalk on that; but it is
republished by Mr. Scribner's publishing house in New York.
A parody, entitled "Ten Little Candidates" appeared in _Punch_ in the
11/14/1868 issue:
Ten little Candidates going out to dine,
One ate his words and choked--then there was nine.
Nine little Candidates, talking of the State,
One talked his breath away--then there was eight.
_Chorus_--One little, two little, three little, four little,
five little Candidate's joys.
Six little, seven little, eight little, nine
little, ten little Candidate's joys.
So obviously the "one little, two little" was seen as a piece with the
(slightly later) "and then there was/were none", although perhaps not
the same "one little, two little", as it's in groups of five rather
than groups of three.
Or is it later? Changing to "and then there was none", I see some
earlier things like
Ten little blackbirds sitting on a vine,
One flew away, and then there were nine.
Nine little blackbirds sitting on a gate...
Eight little blackbirds flying up to heaven...
Seven little blackbirds sitting on some sticks...
Six little blackbirds sitting on a hive...
Five little blackbirds sitting on a door...
Four little blackbirds sitting on a tree...
Three little blackbirds sitting on a shoe...
Two little blackbirds sitting on a stone...
One little blackbird sitting all alone,
He flew away, and then there was none.
_Childrens' [sic] Holidays_, 1865
which is presented by a child who "spread out her ten fingers and
began". It wouldn't surprise me at all if such a finger game, where
the birds simply fly away was parodized, with the "blackbirds"
becoming "niggers" and suffering all sorts of fates.
There appears to be a precedent in an earlier song:
The Song of the Two Birds
There were two birds sat on a stone,
Fa, la, la, la, lal, de;
One flew away, and then there was one,
Fa, la, la, la, lal, de;
The other flew after, and then there was none,
Fa, la, la, la, lal, de;
And so the poor stone was left all alone.
Fa, la, la, la, lal, de;
_Gammer Gurton's Garland_, 1810
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"Are you okay?"
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"I'm made of felt....Add by dose
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kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
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Robin Bignall
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
Try invoking a demon and missing out a syllable. Heaven knows exactly
where you'll end up (and one of Heaven's representatives will tell you
at great length if you ask).
I feel it needs a two-syllable word in line three.
>We mainly used "one potato..."
>anyway.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
Donna Richoux
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
>
> > What Wikipedia fails to include at all is "Old John Brown,"
> > published in 1849 by the Gibson Troupe, available in facsimile at:
> > https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/13371?show=full
>
> Okay, that predates the 1853 "ten little fingers" version I found,
> assuming the dating is correct. (I don't see a date on any of the
> images.)
Several sites have other images of the Gibson Troupe book, and they also
give 1849. At Google Books, "The book of world-famous music," by James
J. Fuld, specifically says the song was copyrighted April 17, 1849.
>Probably not the same John Brown as in "John Brown's Body"
> then.
But -- but -- wasn't "John Brown's Body" a truly old song?... Hm, I
guess not. Some research shows that both it and the Battle Hymn were
part of a confusing swirl of words and lyrics that were all set to the
same tune during the Civil War. The tune (of the chorus, at least)
appears to be from a popular 1850s hymn "Say Brothers Will You Meet Us."
Some say these words came earlier than "John Brown's body":
Ellsworth's body lies mouldering in the dust, (3x)
As we go marching on-
Glory, Glory, Halelujah! [etc.]
There are several other songs about Colonel Elmer E. Ellsworth, an early
casualty of the Union forces who was declared to be a hero. But he died
in May 1861, and we know John Brown died in 1859, so this isn't
necessarily earlier.
Well, anyway, "John Brown" is one of the most common English names.
Checking the Ancestry World database, it gives over 4000 entries for
"John Brown" born between 1630 and 1670 (with duplication). As a
control, "John Bradford" gets 900 results for the same period. "John
Peters" gets 128. So I wouldn't set any great store by the fact that
some song happened to contain the name.
>The fact that the earliest I had found was
>
> > The 1859 Yale Literary Magazine has several jocular references to
> > this poem or song, with specific mentions of North American Indians.
>
> which was at the height of that John Brown's notoriety (and the year
> he was hanged).
[snip lots of good stuff]
>
> Four little blackbirds sitting on a tree...
> Three little blackbirds sitting on a shoe...
> Two little blackbirds sitting on a stone...
> One little blackbird sitting all alone,
> He flew away, and then there was none.
>
> _Childrens' [sic] Holidays_, 1865
>
> which is presented by a child who "spread out her ten fingers and
> began". It wouldn't surprise me at all if such a finger game, where
> the birds simply fly away was parodized, with the "blackbirds"
> becoming "niggers" and suffering all sorts of fates.
Remember the great influence of the blackface minstrel era, which swept
over not only the US but England. Professional singers pretending to the
black are more likely to make up songs that refer to being black.
>
> There appears to be a precedent in an earlier song:
>
> The Song of the Two Birds
>
> There were two birds sat on a stone,
> Fa, la, la, la, lal, de;
> One flew away, and then there was one,
> Fa, la, la, la, lal, de;
> The other flew after, and then there was none,
> Fa, la, la, la, lal, de;
> And so the poor stone was left all alone.
> Fa, la, la, la, lal, de;
>
> _Gammer Gurton's Garland_, 1810
The Opies take it back farther than that, but that will have to wait for
another day.
Mark Brader
>>>>> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used
>>>>> to be "Ten little n- boys"?
Mark Brader:
>>>> That's backwards; "Ten Little Indians" is the original version.
>>>> It's the Agatha Christie novel named after it (and now more often
>>>> called "And Then There Were None") that had its title changed in
>>>> the other direction. See my posting here on the subject in 2006.
Dave Hatunen:
>>> I'm a bit confused here. The original title of the story was "Ten
>>> Little Niggers"
>> That's what I said.
>>> but it was subsequently published in the USA as
>>> "And Then There Were None".
>>
>> That title came later. The title first used in the US was "Ten Little
>> Indians", as I said.
Dave Hatunen:
> Not according to [Wikipedia] ...
My apologies for the error. The US version of the novel changed the
poem/song from "Ten Little Niggers" to a new "Ten Little Indians"
version, but the novel itself was indeed first titled "And Then There
Were None" in the US, and only later "Ten Little Indians" (and also
"The Nursery Rhyme Murders").
It was the *play*, a few years later, that was first produced in the US
as "Ten Little Indians".
By the way, neither version refers to people from India, as I think
I have seen suggested. The novel explicitly refers to a rock formation
on the island as having "negroid lips" in the original version and
"an American Indian profile" in the American version.
--
Mark Brader | "...Backwards Compatibility, which, if you've made as
m...@vex.net | many mistakes as Intel and Microsoft have in the past,
Toronto | can be very Backwards indeed." -- Steve Summit
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Hatunen
wrote:
>My apologies for the error. The US version of the novel changed the
>poem/song from "Ten Little Niggers" to a new "Ten Little Indians"
>version, but the novel itself was indeed first titled "And Then There
>Were None" in the US, and only later "Ten Little Indians" (and also
>"The Nursery Rhyme Murders").
>
>It was the *play*, a few years later, that was first produced in the US
>as "Ten Little Indians".
>
>By the way, neither version refers to people from India, as I think
>I have seen suggested.
As a work of British literature, I suspect it was a given.
>The novel explicitly refers to a rock formation
>on the island as having "negroid lips" in the original version and
>"an American Indian profile" in the American version.
You reckon they might have done a "Harry Potter" on it?
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:53:55 -0500, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader)
> wrote:
>>My apologies for the error. The US version of the novel changed the
>>poem/song from "Ten Little Niggers" to a new "Ten Little Indians"
>>version, but the novel itself was indeed first titled "And Then There
>>Were None" in the US, and only later "Ten Little Indians" (and also
>>"The Nursery Rhyme Murders").
>>
>>It was the *play*, a few years later, that was first produced in the US
>>as "Ten Little Indians".
>>
>>By the way, neither version refers to people from India, as I think
>>I have seen suggested.
>
> As a work of British literature, I suspect it was a given.
Not by the Americans who would have seen the American version (the one
that talked about "Indians") and who would have been familiar with
the song "Ten Little Indians" referring to American Indians.
>>The novel explicitly refers to a rock formation
>>on the island as having "negroid lips" in the original version and
>>"an American Indian profile" in the American version.
>
> You reckon they might have done a "Harry Potter" on it?
Perhaps a "Connecticut Yankee".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |This isn't good. I've seen good,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |and it didn't look anything like
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |this.
| MST3K
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Jeffrey Turner
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
>>
>>> What Wikipedia fails to include at all is "Old John Brown,"
>>> published in 1849 by the Gibson Troupe, available in facsimile at:
>>> https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/13371?show=full
>> Okay, that predates the 1853 "ten little fingers" version I found,
>> assuming the dating is correct. (I don't see a date on any of the
>> images.)
>
> Several sites have other images of the Gibson Troupe book, and they also
> give 1849. At Google Books, "The book of world-famous music," by James
> J. Fuld, specifically says the song was copyrighted April 17, 1849.
>
>> Probably not the same John Brown as in "John Brown's Body"
>> then.
>
> But -- but -- wasn't "John Brown's Body" a truly old song?... Hm, I
> guess not. Some research shows that both it and the Battle Hymn were
> part of a confusing swirl of words and lyrics that were all set to the
> same tune during the Civil War. The tune (of the chorus, at least)
> appears to be from a popular 1850s hymn "Say Brothers Will You Meet Us."
>
> Some say these words came earlier than "John Brown's body":
>
> Ellsworth's body lies mouldering in the dust, (3x)
> As we go marching on-
> Glory, Glory, Halelujah! [etc.]
This is what Wikipedia has to say about the song "John Brown's Body."
"John Brown's Body" (originally known as "John Brown's Song") is a
famous Union marching song of the American Civil War. The tune arose out
of the folk hymn tradition of the American camp meeting movement of the
1800s. During the American Civil War the lyrics referenced Sergeant John
Brown of the Second Battalion, Boston Light Infantry Volunteer Militia,
a Boston based unit. Later, people mistakenly believed it referenced the
abolitionist John Brown and later verses were added referencing him.[1]
The "flavor of coarseness, possibly of irreverence"[2] led many of the
era to feel uncomfortable with the earliest "John Brown" lyrics. This in
turn led to the creation of many variant versions of the text that
aspired to a higher literary quality. The most famous of these is Julia
Ward Howe's "Battle Hymn of the Republic," which was written when a
friend suggested, "Why do you not write some good words for that
stirring tune?"[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown%27s_Body
There's much more, and the references look good. There's no more info -
or link - on who Sgt. John Brown was or when he fought. Apparently,
from this reference
(http://www.civilwarpoetry.org/union/songs/brownexp.html), he fought and
sang in the Civil War.
--Jeff
--
The comfort of the wealthy has always
depended upon an abundant supply of
the poor. --Voltaire