Formidable
LFS
compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
more doubtful about English.
--
Laura, contemplating taking offence
(emulate St. George for email)
Hatunen
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
more doubtful about English.
I think it would depend on context. "Mr Smith is a formidable foe
in the race for a seat on the city council" would certainly be
complimentary.
I'm having a hard time coming up with negative example.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>more doubtful about English.
Context?
<nervous smile>
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
HVS
> If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
> compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but
> I'm more doubtful about English.
Depends on the actual or implied noun that it's modifying, dunnit.
"She is a formidable academic" : "Her scholarship is very solid"
"She is a formidable person": "Be careful not to cross her"
"She is a formidable woman" -- "She is Bertie Wooster's terrifying
maiden aunt"
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Leslie Danks
> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>>compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
> more doubtful about English.
>
> I think it would depend on context. "Mr Smith is a formidable foe
> in the race for a seat on the city council" would certainly be
> complimentary.
>
> I'm having a hard time coming up with negative example.
I agree that context is all, but I think "formidable" is more likely to
have a negative tinge if applied to a woman than if applied to a man.
Despite decades of rampant feminism, many people still harbour the view
(consciously or subconsciously) that women ought to be gentle creatures,
dependent on the protection of men, and everything other
than "formidable". There is a rather stronger German expression which
translates literally as "she's got hair on her teeth" (FYI).
--
Les
Arcadian Rises
> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
>
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
> >If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
> >compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>
> more doubtful about English.
>
> I think it would depend on context. "Mr Smith is a formidable foe
> in the race for a seat on the city council" would certainly be
> complimentary.
>
> I'm having a hard time coming up with negative example.
Then try using it as a qualifier for a noun with inherent negative
connotations:
a formidable womanizer (or nimpho)
the ultimate/formidable flip-flopper
a formidable bigot, or racist? nah, perhaps the connotation shouldn't
be too negative.
tony cooper
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>more doubtful about English.
A left-handed compliment at best. "Formidable" is not that far from
"domineering", "overbearing", and "pushy" in use. A formidable
opponent is difficult to beat, and we resent those we can't beat.
Not that it can't be somewhat complimentary. A formidable force in,
say, a staff meeting is a person whose ideas and plans are usually
solidly prepared and convincingly delivered.
For some reason my mind drifts back to a grade school principal. She
was tall, big-boned, busty, and stern appearing. A formidable force
when seen striding down the halls. The halls quieted and became more
orderly at her presence.
She would often gather in a student (invariably male) as she walked by
placing one arm gently over the student's shoulder and have a short,
pleasant conversation with the student about how they were getting
along in school. No mention of misdeeds, but the student knew he was
under observation.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Wood Avens
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>more doubtful about English.
When it's been used of me, I've always taken it as a compliment. I
certainly wouldn't want to be called the opposite (whatever that might
be).
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
tinwhistler
Formidable creatures abound everywhere on Halloween, no? I am
thinking that there is a connotation of large size when that adjective
is applied to a person, male or female, and that such connotation is
indeed more negative with respect to a woman. I also agree that in
the French, the word is often used in the sense of a synonym for
EXCELLENT.
--
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
R H Draney
>
>On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>>compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>more doubtful about English.
>
>I think it would depend on context. "Mr Smith is a formidable foe
>in the race for a seat on the city council" would certainly be
>complimentary.
>
>I'm having a hard time coming up with negative example.
When Laura needs help with a usage question, you certainly are a formidable
obstacle....r
--
"Governor Palin, I served with Dan Quayle.
I knew Dan Quayle; Dan Quayle was a friend of mine.
Governor Palin, you're no Dan Quayle."
R H Draney
>
>On Oct 31, 11:40=A0am, Wood Avens <woodav...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
>>
>> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>> >If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>> >compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>> >more doubtful about English.
>
>thinking that there is a connotation of large size when that adjective
>is applied to a person, male or female, and that such connotation is
>indeed more negative with respect to a woman. I also agree that in
>the French, the word is often used in the sense of a synonym for
>EXCELLENT.
ObPondiality: Americans accent the first syllable of "formidable", the British
accent the second, and the French accent the third....r
Bob Cunningham
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>more doubtful about English.
I would think the describer viewed me as a threat or an obstacle.
--
Bob Cunningham, Southern California, USA. Western American English
Bob Cunningham
<wood...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>>compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>>more doubtful about English.
>
>When it's been used of me, I've always taken it as a compliment. I
>certainly wouldn't want to be called the opposite (whatever that might
>be).
Submissive?
Ian Jackson
<dado...@spamcop.net> writes
>tinwhistler filted:
>>
>>On Oct 31, 11:40=A0am, Wood Avens <woodav...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
>>>
>>> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>>> >If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>>> >compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>>> >more doubtful about English.
>>
>>Formidable creatures abound everywhere on Halloween, no? I am
>>thinking that there is a connotation of large size when that adjective
>>is applied to a person, male or female, and that such connotation is
>>indeed more negative with respect to a woman. I also agree that in
>>the French, the word is often used in the sense of a synonym for
>>EXCELLENT.
>
>ObPondiality: Americans accent the first syllable of "formidable", the British
>accent the second, and the French accent the third....r
>
You are just as (or even more) likely to hear the stress the first,
which I consider to be correct.
--
Ian
Ian Jackson
<exw...@earthlink.net> writes
> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>>compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>>more doubtful about English.
>
>I would think the describer viewed me as a threat or an obstacle.
>
'taken account of' etc?
--
Ian
Bob Cunningham
wrote:
[...]
>"She is Bertie Wooster's terrifying maiden aunt"
Aunt Agatha and Aunt Dahlia were very-much married. Aunt Agatha was
the terrifying one who chewed ground glass and metaphorically pursued
Bertie with a hatchet.
Did Bertie have a maiden aunt?
Wood Avens
<ozzie...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>On Oct 31, 11:40 am, Wood Avens <woodav...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
>>
>> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>> >If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>> >compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>> >more doubtful about English.
>>
>> When it's been used of me, I've always taken it as a compliment. I
>> certainly wouldn't want to be called the opposite (whatever that might
>> be).
>>
>> --
>>
>> Katy Jennison
>>
>> spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
>
>Formidable creatures abound everywhere on Halloween, no? I am
>thinking that there is a connotation of large size when that adjective
>is applied to a person, male or female, and that such connotation is
>indeed more negative with respect to a woman.
Hmm. Given that I don't think I've ever been called this by anyone
who's never met me in person, and given that I'm 5'3" and 105 lbs, I
can't help having an inkling of the possibility of a hunch that that's
not the sense in which it's being applied.
TsuiDF
> If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
> compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
> more doubtful about English.
Despite comments about potential negativity elsethread, I can *only*
imagine taking it as a compliment. Maybe this says more about one's
self-image than it does about the person making the remark.... I have
felt for so long, in so many situations, that I am trying to keep up
with very macho men, that if anyone called me formidable, I would take
it as one of the highest compliments as I would imagine it meant I was
as competent as they see themselves as being.
I say, take the compliment and don't borrow trouble.
But wadda I know....
atb,
Stephanie
in Brussels
LFS
Even though I'm considerably larger, I agree. I think the word connotes
force and you don't necessarily have to be big to be forceful. But I'm
still not sure that it's as complimentary in English as it is in French.
--
Laura
HVS
> Even though I'm considerably larger, I agree. I think the word
> connotes force and you don't necessarily have to be big to be
> forceful. But I'm still not sure that it's as complimentary in
> English as it is in French.
That's because English words and phrases can have more than one
meaning.
Whereas the French, you know, have no word for "double entendre".
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
> >compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
> >more doubtful about English.
>
> Context?
>
> <nervous smile>
Got it. A formidable person is one who provokes nervous smiles in
those asking about something she said.
Anyway, "The class is taught by the formidable Professor Spira"--
largely complimentary, but there's a suggestion of resentment.
"Laura Spira, the most formidable business ethicist in Britain"--
totally complimentary.
"Spira is my most formidable antagonist in my attempts to improve the
way the college operates"--about 20 percent complimentary.
"The formidable Dr. Spira is an opponent of inefficiency and cant in
everything she does"--totally complimentary.
All in my formidable opinion.
--
Jerry Friedman
Richard Yates
> Wood Avens wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:40:14 -0700 (PDT), tinwhistler
>> <ozzie...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> On Oct 31, 11:40 am, Wood Avens <woodav...@askjennison.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
>>>>
>>>> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>>>>> compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but
>>>>> I'm more doubtful about English.
>>>> When it's been used of me, I've always taken it as a compliment. I
>>>> certainly wouldn't want to be called the opposite (whatever that
>>>> might be).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
>>> Formidable creatures abound everywhere on Halloween, no? I am
>>> thinking that there is a connotation of large size when that
>>> adjective is applied to a person, male or female, and that such
>>> connotation is indeed more negative with respect to a woman.
>>
>> Hmm. Given that I don't think I've ever been called this by anyone
>> who's never met me in person, and given that I'm 5'3" and 105 lbs, I
>> can't help having an inkling of the possibility of a hunch that
>> that's not the sense in which it's being applied.
>>
>
> Even though I'm considerably larger, I agree. I think the word
> connotes force and you don't necessarily have to be big to be
> forceful. But I'm still not sure that it's as complimentary in
> English as it is in French.
The most frequent, current usage in the US is positive (I think):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNcz4UiRG7c
LFS
Having spent my working life in male-dominated environments, I have some
sympathy with that view but my experience has made me very sensitive to
patronising nuances and deeply suspicious of anything which might seem
like a compliment from such sources. (Goodness knows what that says
about my self-image.)
On this occasion, I am (fairly) sure of the well-meaning intention
behind the word but it struck me that I would have felt much more
complimented had it been in French.
How do you feel if you are described as "bright"? That really raises my
hackles.
--
Laura
Robert Bannister
> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>> compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
> more doubtful about English.
>
> I think it would depend on context. "Mr Smith is a formidable foe
> in the race for a seat on the city council" would certainly be
> complimentary.
>
> I'm having a hard time coming up with negative example.
>
If there is another noun as in your example, I can imagine many positive
contexts, but how would you feel about "You (Dave) are a bit
formidable."? Used like this, it tends to mean scary, which of course
could still be taken as a compliment, but not necessarily.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
Correctness must be in the ear of the listener. Currently, I am puzzled
over the multiple pronunciations of "clandestine" (klan-DES-tine,
klan-DES-tin, KLAN-des-tine, KLAN-des-tin). I suppose the correct one is
a secret.
--
Rob Bannister
Mike Lyle
> If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
> compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
> more doubtful about English.
And you a dragon-lover! (A propos, I switched off one of the damneder
sillier TV progs last night only after checking that Germaine was only
there in her capacity as a publicity junkie. Quel un venir au dessous,
as we French scholars say.)
--
Mike.
Mike Lyle
> On 31 Oct 2008, LFS wrote
>
>> If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>> compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but
>> I'm more doubtful about English.
>
> Depends on the actual or implied noun that it's modifying, dunnit.
>
>
> "She is a formidable academic" : "Her scholarship is very solid"
>
> "She is a formidable person": "Be careful not to cross her"
>
> "She is a formidable woman" -- "She is Bertie Wooster's terrifying
> maiden aunt"
I thought Aunt Dahlia was married. Do I misremember?
--
Mike.
Ian Jackson
<rob...@bigpond.com> writes
harASSing.
--
Ian
HVS
> On this occasion, I am (fairly) sure of the well-meaning
> intention behind the word but it struck me that I would have
> felt much more complimented had it been in French.
Even if it was sung to you by Charles Aznavour>
You are the one for me
For me, for me, form-i-dable
You are my love, very
Very, very, veri-table.
(Having a memory for especially crap lyrics isn't fun, y'know.)
HVS
Undoubtedly my error. (I did consider leaving the 'maiden' bit out,
and shoulda.)
LFS
> On Oct 31, 11:06 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>>> compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>>> more doubtful about English.
>> Context?
>>
>> <nervous smile>
>
> Got it. A formidable person is one who provokes nervous smiles in
> those asking about something she said.
<chuckle>
>
> Anyway, "The class is taught by the formidable Professor Spira"--
> largely complimentary, but there's a suggestion of resentment.
But I'd be very happy with that because it would make the students
nervous, which seems to be ever more necessary these days.
>
> "Laura Spira, the most formidable business ethicist in Britain"--
> totally complimentary.
>
> "Spira is my most formidable antagonist in my attempts to improve the
> way the college operates"--about 20 percent complimentary.
I'm intrigued by the percentage but I would not consider that to be in
any way a complimentary remark - and how did you manage to eavesdrop on
our previous vice chancellor?
>
> "The formidable Dr. Spira is an opponent of inefficiency and cant in
> everything she does"--totally complimentary.
But she sounds rather worthy and humourless, don't you think?
>
> All in my formidable opinion.
Formidable, mon cher!
LFS
> On 31 Oct 2008, LFS wrote
>
>> On this occasion, I am (fairly) sure of the well-meaning
>> intention behind the word but it struck me that I would have
>> felt much more complimented had it been in French.
>
> Even if it was sung to you by Charles Aznavour>
>
> You are the one for me
> For me, for me, form-i-dable
> You are my love, very
> Very, very, veri-table.
>
> (Having a memory for especially crap lyrics isn't fun, y'know.)
>
I'm a sucker for a serenade - Aznavour could sing me a shopping list and
I'd melt, although he must be getting on a bit these days.
R H Draney
>>over the multiple pronunciations of "clandestine" (klan-DES-tine,
>>klan-DES-tin, KLAN-des-tine, KLAN-des-tin). I suppose the correct one
>>is a secret.
>>
>Indeed. But I find these multiple pronunciations very HARassing /
>harASSing.
"Her lips said no, but harassment yes"....r
Richard Yates
Which syllables of words are accented can be a matter of the rhythmic
context - what comes before and what comes after. Someone pointed this out
to me using the word Tennessee. I can't dredge up the various sentences that
he used but I remember that I did variously stress the first or the last
syllable. Try these:
The mascot name of the Univ. of Tennessee is the "Tennessee Volunteers." I
think I say this as five roughly equalled unstressed syllables with a clear
stress on the last ("teers"). But if I say, "Louisville, Tennessee" the
stress is on "see."
Mike Lyle
> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:34:51 GMT, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> "She is Bertie Wooster's terrifying maiden aunt"
>
> Aunt Agatha and Aunt Dahlia were very-much married. Aunt Agatha was
> the terrifying one who chewed ground glass and metaphorically pursued
> Bertie with a hatchet.
>
> Did Bertie have a maiden aunt?
I thought not. But I can never remember which Aunt was the Good Egg,
except by the clearly disastrous means of knowing that "agatha" means
"good". I shall reverse my mnemonic.
But Madhur Jaffrey brings us back on topic with a Korean Turnip Pickle
containing the following elements:
2 sliced turnips
1 1/2 tsp salt
1 crushed chilli
1 tbs finely chopped spring onions (a.k.a. scallions)
3 finely chopped cloves garlic
1/4 tsp sugar.
You salt the turnip slices with 1 tsp of the salt for a few hours,
drain, rinse, drain. Then mix everything and cover with water. Leave out
of the fridge for a week or until it's gone sour enough for your liking.
Et voila! Preserved Turnips fit for a Dear Leader. The things are still
bloody turnips, though.
--
Mike.
tinwhistler
> tinwhistler filted:
>
>
>
> >On Oct 31, 11:40=A0am, Wood Avens <woodav...@askjennison.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
>
> >> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
> >> >compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
> >> >more doubtful about English.
>
> >Formidable creatures abound everywhere on Halloween, no? I am
> >thinking that there is a connotation of large size when that adjective
> >is applied to a person, male or female, and that such connotation is
> >indeed more negative with respect to a woman. I also agree that in
> >the French, the word is often used in the sense of a synonym for
> >EXCELLENT.
>
> ObPondiality: Americans accent the first syllable of "formidable", the British
> accent the second, and the French accent the third....r
Thanks. In the French, the ending -ble is silent so as to give the
word just three syllables, no? form-ee-DAHB I like the French usage
so much that I borrow it into English sentences whenever there is some
excuse for doing so, as in referring to this sentence in the Wikipedia
entry for Placido Domingo:
He holds a world record for the longest ovation on the operatic stage
with 101 curtain calls and 80 minutes non-stop applause after
performing Otello, Verdis operatic version of Shakespeares Othello, as
the Moor of Venice in Vienna on July 30, 1991.
--
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
--
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Mike Lyle
> jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]
>> "The formidable Dr. Spira is an opponent of inefficiency and cant in
>> everything she does"--totally complimentary.
>
> But she sounds rather worthy and humourless, don't you think?
Revised Standard Version: "The formidable and witty Dr Spira..."
>>
>> All in my formidable opinion.
>
> Formidable, mon cher!
I know what it means, but am handicapped by an ineradicable habit of
linking it in my mind with "formication"* and other antinesses. I don't
so often get stuck tunes too much to bear, but I do get Stuck False
Etymology Syndrome somethink chronic.
*Dutch Reformed dominees will kindly stop tittering.
--
Mike.
Bob Cunningham
<mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Bob Cunningham wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:34:51 GMT, HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> "She is Bertie Wooster's terrifying maiden aunt"
>>
>> Aunt Agatha and Aunt Dahlia were very-much married. Aunt Agatha was
>> the terrifying one who chewed ground glass and metaphorically pursued
>> Bertie with a hatchet.
>>
>> Did Bertie have a maiden aunt?
>
>I thought not. But I can never remember which Aunt was the Good Egg,
>except by the clearly disastrous means of knowing that "agatha" means
>"good". I shall reverse my mnemonic.
Aunt Dahlia was one of the best, all right, but she wasn't above
employing a little extortion to make Bertie do what she wanted him to
do. Her main weapon was threatening to bar Bertie from partaking of
the delightful meals prepared by her superb chef, Anatole.
She also insulted Bertie a lot, but in a friendly way.
>But Madhur Jaffrey brings us back on topic with a Korean Turnip Pickle
>containing the following elements:
>2 sliced turnips
>1 1/2 tsp salt
>1 crushed chilli
>1 tbs finely chopped spring onions (a.k.a. scallions)
>3 finely chopped cloves garlic
>1/4 tsp sugar.
>
>You salt the turnip slices with 1 tsp of the salt for a few hours,
>drain, rinse, drain. Then mix everything and cover with water. Leave out
>of the fridge for a week or until it's gone sour enough for your liking.
>
>Et voila! Preserved Turnips fit for a Dear Leader. The things are still
>bloody turnips, though.
Maybe I wouldn't have opened that door if I had used Al Capp's
spelling, "presarved turnips", as featured in his sorely missed "Lil
Abner" cartoons.
But thanks. I'm going to pass that recipe along to some cooks in the
family. Maybe they'll find it irresistible.
Bob Cunningham
Yes, as someone has said, context can give words greatly different
connotations.
Steve Hayes
>I agree that context is all, but I think "formidable" is more likely to
>have a negative tinge if applied to a woman than if applied to a man.
>Despite decades of rampant feminism, many people still harbour the view
>(consciously or subconsciously) that women ought to be gentle creatures,
>dependent on the protection of men, and everything other
>than "formidable". There is a rather stronger German expression which
>translates literally as "she's got hair on her teeth" (FYI).
When I was in prep school we had an Afrikaans teacher, Mrs Barr, who I would
describe as formidable.
So formidable, in fact, that she provoked the whole school to go on strike.
And when the headmaster lined up all the pupils to beat them one by one for
that offence, he made a little speech to the effect that some women were
peculiar and one just had to put up with it and that was no excuse for going
on strike.
Even at the age of 10 I felt his remarks were sexist, though I didn't know the
word and it probably hadn't been invented yet. We didn't go on strike because
she was a woman, but because she was a tyrant in the classroom, and that had
nothing to do with her sex. Male teachers could also be tyrants.
But she WAS formidable.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
>"She is a formidable woman" -- "She is Bertie Wooster's terrifying
>maiden aunt"
She's bossy.
I seem to remember a stereotyped one in Richmal Crompton's "William" books.
Middle-aged, loud-voiced, bears down on people like a supertanker, wears a
"costume".
Steve Hayes
wrote:
Other words where different syllables are stressed
laboratory
kilometre
devotee
The last was once used as a shibboleth in a competion for an English announcer
for the South African Broadcasting Corporation. They were given a passage to
read, and those who pronounced "devotee" correctly were placed on the short
list.
John Holmes
>
> Other words where different syllables are stressed
>
> laboratory
> kilometre
> devotee
>
> The last was once used as a shibboleth in a competion for an English
> announcer for the South African Broadcasting Corporation. They were
> given a passage to read, and those who pronounced "devotee" correctly
> were placed on the short list.
What other pronunciation is there of "devotee"?
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Amethyst Deceiver
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>TsuiDF wrote:
>> On Oct 31, 5:40 pm, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>>> If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>>> compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>>> more doubtful about English.
>>
>> Despite comments about potential negativity elsethread, I can *only*
>> imagine taking it as a compliment. Maybe this says more about one's
>> self-image than it does about the person making the remark.... I have
>> felt for so long, in so many situations, that I am trying to keep up
>> with very macho men, that if anyone called me formidable, I would take
>> it as one of the highest compliments as I would imagine it meant I was
>> as competent as they see themselves as being.
>>
>> I say, take the compliment and don't borrow trouble.
>>
>> But wadda I know....
>>
>
>Having spent my working life in male-dominated environments, I have some
>sympathy with that view but my experience has made me very sensitive to
>patronising nuances and deeply suspicious of anything which might seem
>like a compliment from such sources. (Goodness knows what that says
>about my self-image.)
I've heard junior academics describe profs of both sexes as
formidable. And some of the administrators are definitely formidable.
The head of undergraduate services, who retired in July, was one of
those. The phrase "I want a word with you" caused academics, admin,
and students alike, to revert to schoolchildren called to the head's
office.
>On this occasion, I am (fairly) sure of the well-meaning intention
>behind the word but it struck me that I would have felt much more
>complimented had it been in French.
>
>How do you feel if you are described as "bright"? That really raises my
>hackles.
"Bright" is a term I hear applied to junior academics of both sexes,
implying that they've achieved a lot considering their youth, and are
likely to go far. But applied to a senior academic? That would be
patronising.
Which doesn't mean I don't hear it. Or, indeed, use it. "Prof Blah is
very bright, but he can never remember where he's supposed to be
lecturing, and it's been the same room for the last five years".
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
Ian Jackson
<haye...@hotmail.com> writes
>>over the multiple pronunciations of "clandestine" (klan-DES-tine,
>>klan-DES-tin, KLAN-des-tine, KLAN-des-tin). I suppose the correct one is
>>a secret.
>
>Other words where different syllables are stressed
>
>laboratory
>kilometre
>devotee
>
>The last was once used as a shibboleth in a competion for an English announcer
>for the South African Broadcasting Corporation. They were given a passage to
>read, and those who pronounced "devotee" correctly were placed on the short
>list.
>
pronounced in the American way, as LAB-ratory.
KILL-o-metre (-meter) is only stressed differently when pronounced
almost invariably (but incorrectly) as kill-OM-etre.
The only variation I've ever heard for devot-EE is the (possibly) more
correct French pronunciation, as 'devo-TAY'. Both are illustrated
(without explanation) on this website (see the 'Word Tutor') section.
http://www.answers.com/topic/devotee
I presume we always use the French feminine form (as we do with
'divorcee') to distinguish such words from 'devote', divorce' etc.
--
Ian
Bob Cunningham
wrote:
[...]
>What other pronunciation is there of "devotee"?
You can hear two pronunciations and see five at
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/devotee
In ASCII IPA, I take the M-W pronunciations to be
[,dE,voU'ti:] [,di:,voUti:] [,deI,voU'ti:] [,d@,voU'ti:] [,dE,voU'teI]
(equal secondary stress on the first two syllables).
Ad hoc-wise, they're
"DehVoTEE", "DeeVoTEE", "DayVoTEE", "DuhVoTEE", "dehVoTAY"
where "eh" is the "e" of "met", "o" is the "o" of "vote", "uh" is the
"o" of "bacon", "ee" is the "ee" of "meet", "ay" is the "ay" of "day;
capitalizing the first letter of a syllable gives it secondary stress;
capitalizing the whole syllable gives it primary stress.
In the _American Heritage Dictionary 4th Edition_, there are two
pronunciations [,dEv@'ti:] and [,dEv@'teI]. The voice pronunciation
is the first of those. (Secondary stress on the first syllable and
not the second.)
http://www.bartleby.com/61/wavs/31/D0183100.wav
The last time I remember having occasion to pronounce the word was in
1938. I remember it because I was pronouncing it "di VO Tee", after
"devote", and a fellow scholar corrected me, saying it should be
"Deh Vo TAY".
Bob Cunningham
[...]
>La-BORA-tory is only stressed differently when spelled/spelt and
>pronounced in the American way, as LAB-ratory.
Not so. Spelled in the American way, it's "laboratory".
But yes, pronounced in the American way, it's ['l&b r@ ,tO: ri:]
Ian Jackson
<exw...@earthlink.net> writes
> On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 08:38:00 +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>La-BORA-tory is only stressed differently when spelled/spelt and
>>pronounced in the American way, as LAB-ratory.
>
>Not so. Spelled in the American way, it's "laboratory".
>
>But yes, pronounced in the American way, it's ['l&b r@ ,tO: ri:]
Well I never! I always assumed that the Americans spelt it incorrectly
(like 'aluminum'). I stand corrected!
However, although a Google search on 'labratory' does ask me if I really
mean 'laboratory', I see that there are countless hits where the
preferred spelling is indeed 'labratory'.
--
Ian
LFS
> LFS wrote:
>> jerry_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
> [...]
>>> "The formidable Dr. Spira is an opponent of inefficiency and cant in
>>> everything she does"--totally complimentary.
>> But she sounds rather worthy and humourless, don't you think?
>
> Revised Standard Version: "The formidable and witty Dr Spira..."
A great improvement, thank you.
>>> All in my formidable opinion.
>> Formidable, mon cher!
>
> I know what it means, but am handicapped by an ineradicable habit of
> linking it in my mind with "formication"* and other antinesses. I don't
> so often get stuck tunes too much to bear, but I do get Stuck False
> Etymology Syndrome somethink chronic.
>
> *Dutch Reformed dominees will kindly stop tittering.
I get that, too. I always associate "heuristic" with time.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Surely a 'labratory' is a workroom where Labradors are groomed.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
TsuiDF
> Having spent my working life in male-dominated environments, I have some
> sympathy with that view but my experience has made me very sensitive to
> patronising nuances and deeply suspicious of anything which might seem
> like a compliment from such sources. (Goodness knows what that says
> about my self-image.)
I think it says you're pretty in tune with said environment,
actually. I have to some extent taken a strategic decision
to be very selective about when I take offence, thereby allowing me to
startle people when I do so publicly. This gives one the
added value of 'she always seems so nice, if she's upset now perhaps
something's really amiss' which has served me quite
well. Admittedly, the older I get, the crankier I seem to be, so that
may be behind me.
> On this occasion, I am (fairly) sure of the well-meaning intention
> behind the word but it struck me that I would have felt much more
> complimented had it been in French.
Yes, but how often is anyone complimented in French? Don't get me
started....
> How do you feel if you are described as "bright"? That really raises my
> hackles.
That's right up there with being described as 'articulate'. The not-
at-all-subtext is 'but who would've expected that a panda could
dance?!'
Hackles up, release the hounds, full speed ahead, be completely
offended. That is condescension pure and simple. Very tiny
possibility of exceptions where it's said in doting tones about
children at recitals and school plays, for example. In the collegial
context, however, I'm having great difficulty imagining it being used
except to condescend or to be followed by 'but', as in 'He may be very
bright...
but his performance since his promotion suggests it's not helping
him.' Or '...but he has the emotional intelligence of a small soap
dish.' Or...
well, you get the picture.
In sum, keeping one's hackles well-groomed as they may shortly be on
public view seems well-founded advice in such contexts.
Mais, madame, je vous assure -- nous vous trouvons formidable,
aujourd'hui et toujours!
best,
S in B
> --
> Laura
> (emulate St. George for email)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
LFS
> On Oct 31, 11:23 pm, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Having spent my working life in male-dominated environments, I have some
>> sympathy with that view but my experience has made me very sensitive to
>> patronising nuances and deeply suspicious of anything which might seem
>> like a compliment from such sources. (Goodness knows what that says
>> about my self-image.)
>
> I think it says you're pretty in tune with said environment,
> actually. I have to some extent taken a strategic decision
> to be very selective about when I take offence, thereby allowing me to
> startle people when I do so publicly. This gives one the
> added value of 'she always seems so nice, if she's upset now perhaps
> something's really amiss' which has served me quite
> well. Admittedly, the older I get, the crankier I seem to be, so that
> may be behind me.
Behaving out of one's assumed character in a work environment can have
considerable impact. I have found that, having been very vocal about all
sorts of things for many years, it is far more effective to be quiet.
When I attend meetings and don't speak, everyone gets really spooked. (I
wasn't clever enough to work this strategy out: I discovered it quite by
chance when I lost my voice one day due to a bad throat.)
>
>
>> On this occasion, I am (fairly) sure of the well-meaning intention
>> behind the word but it struck me that I would have felt much more
>> complimented had it been in French.
>
> Yes, but how often is anyone complimented in French? Don't get me
> started....
>
>
>> How do you feel if you are described as "bright"? That really raises my
>> hackles.
>
> That's right up there with being described as 'articulate'. The not-
> at-all-subtext is 'but who would've expected that a panda could
> dance?!'
> Hackles up, release the hounds, full speed ahead, be completely
> offended. That is condescension pure and simple. Very tiny
> possibility of exceptions where it's said in doting tones about
> children at recitals and school plays, for example. In the collegial
> context, however, I'm having great difficulty imagining it being used
> except to condescend or to be followed by 'but', as in 'He may be very
> bright...
> but his performance since his promotion suggests it's not helping
> him.' Or '...but he has the emotional intelligence of a small soap
> dish.' Or...
> well, you get the picture.
Gosh, I'm awfully glad that you and Linz share my view about "bright".
But I think "articulate" is slightly different. I often hear it used as
a compliment - but that may be because academics are often not at all
articulate so a well-expressed thought comes as something of a surprise.
>
> In sum, keeping one's hackles well-groomed as they may shortly be on
> public view seems well-founded advice in such contexts.
What a wonderful image! I shall add hackle grooming to my daily routine
forthwith.
>
> Mais, madame, je vous assure -- nous vous trouvons formidable,
> aujourd'hui et toujours!
<blush>
R H Draney
>
>Surely a 'labratory' is a workroom where Labradors are groomed.
The other day I was shaving and a huge rodent popped its head out of the
sink...must have been a lav rat....r
tyngewic...@ntlworld.com
> >> If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
> >> compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
> >> more doubtful about English.
>
> > Despite comments about potential negativity elsethread, I can *only*
> > imagine taking it as a compliment. Maybe this says more about one's
> > self-image than it does about the person making the remark.... I have
> > felt for so long, in so many situations, that I am trying to keep up
> > with very macho men, that if anyone called me formidable, I would take
> > it as one of the highest compliments as I would imagine it meant I was
> > as competent as they see themselves as being.
>
> > I say, take the compliment and don't borrow trouble.
>
> > But wadda I know....
>
> sympathy with that view but my experience has made me very sensitive to
> patronising nuances and deeply suspicious of anything which might seem
> like a compliment from such sources. (Goodness knows what that says
> about my self-image.)
>
> behind the word but it struck me that I would have felt much more
> complimented had it been in French.
Perhaps you should decide whether it was kindly meant, and then turn
over in your mind what other adjectives the writer might have been
contemplating. Or indeed what you would have preferred in its place.
> How do you feel if you are described as "bright"? That really raises my
> hackles.
Better than being called 'dim'. I use 'bright' as one of my highest
words of praise - possibly because I have to spend so much time with
people who aren't.
--
TG
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote:
...
> > "Spira is my most formidable antagonist in my attempts to improve the
> > way the college operates"--about 20 percent complimentary.
>
> I'm intrigued by the percentage
Careful study and rigorous calculation. Don't try this without a
grant.
> but I would not consider that to be in
> any way a complimentary remark -
Compare "Spira is just another one of my ineffectual antagonists."
> and how did you manage to eavesdrop on
> our previous vice chancellor?
"Previous"--another sign of formidability. Formidableness?
> > "The formidable Dr. Spira is an opponent of inefficiency and cant in
> > everything she does"--totally complimentary.
>
> But she sounds rather worthy and humourless, don't you think?
In addition to Mike's suggestion, I probably should have left out "in
everything she does". Makes her sound single-minded.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ian Jackson
<dado...@spamcop.net> writes
>Ian Jackson filted:
>>
>>In message <6n1g04F...@mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister
>><rob...@bigpond.com> writes
>>>
>>>Correctness must be in the ear of the listener. Currently, I am puzzled
>>>over the multiple pronunciations of "clandestine" (klan-DES-tine,
>>>klan-DES-tin, KLAN-des-tine, KLAN-des-tin). I suppose the correct one
>>>is a secret.
>>>
>>Indeed. But I find these multiple pronunciations very HARassing /
>>harASSing.
>
>"Her lips said no, but harassment yes"....r
>
>
--
Ian
Bob Cunningham
<exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
[...]
>In ASCII IPA, I take the M-W pronunciations to be
>[,dE,voU'ti:] [,di:,voUti:] [,deI,voU'ti:] [,d@,voU'ti:] [,dE,voU'teI]
>(equal secondary stress on the first two syllables).
Missing primary stress on the second pronunciation; should have been
[,di:,voU'ti:]
LFS
Did I say it was written? As it happens, the context required no
adjective at all.
>
>> How do you feel if you are described as "bright"? That really raises my
>> hackles.
>
> Better than being called 'dim'. I use 'bright' as one of my highest
> words of praise - possibly because I have to spend so much time with
> people who aren't.
Hm. See the posts from Stephanie and Linz which match my own views very
closely on that one.
Chuck Riggs
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>more doubtful about English.
For me, it brings up an image of something that is difficult.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
Bob Cunningham
<ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Google gets "about 953,000" hits on "ad nauseum" and "about 410,000"
on "aperature". That doesn't make them any righter.
There's really no right and no wrong spelling; there's only
respectable. (I thought about writing "respectable, conventional, and
acceptable", but then I looked up "respectable" and found that it can
subsume "conventional" and "acceptable".)
Another way to say it is that it's customary to spell words in certain
ways, but there's no law against spelling them any way a writer wants
to. The writer's wish to be respected is something else.
This brings to mind William Randolph Hearst's father's expostulation
"They say I can't spell; they say I spell 'bird' 'B U R D'. Well if
'B U R D' doesn't spell 'bird', what the hell does it spell?"
Yeah, I know, there's the "long-obsolete-except-poetical"* (or
"chiefly Scotland"**, depending upon which dictionary you look at)
"burd" meaning "A woman, a lady, a maiden", but how many people know
that?.
* _New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_
** _Merriam-Webster's Unabridged Dictionary_
Bob Cunningham
And a "luh BORE uh tree" is a place where boring work is done?
Or a tree under which you may find boring things?
Arcadian Rises
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is what I call "perversion".
vide MW online 1(b)
Main Entry: 1per�vert
Function: transitive verb
Pronunciation: p&r-'v&rt
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French pervertir, from Latin
pervertere to overturn, corrupt, pervert, from per- thoroughly +
vertere to turn -- more at PER- , worth
1 a : to cause to turn aside or away from what is good or true or
morally right : CORRUPT b : to cause to turn aside or away from what
is generally done or accepted : MISDIRECT
2 a : to divert to a wrong end or purpose : MISUSE b : to twist the
meaning or sense of : MISINTERPRET
synonym see DEBASE
===============
Next step: "bright" will soon become un-PC because some people may use
it in a patronizing way i.s.o. the good old-fashioned sense.
Wood Avens
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>tyngewic...@ntlworld.com wrote:
>>> How do you feel if you are described as "bright"? That really raises my
>>> hackles.
>>
>> Better than being called 'dim'. I use 'bright' as one of my highest
>> words of praise - possibly because I have to spend so much time with
>> people who aren't.
>
>Hm. See the posts from Stephanie and Linz which match my own views very
>closely on that one.
It wasn't, I suppose, being used in the new Dawkins-ish sense of
"atheist"?
Of course, even if it was, you're still have to decide whether it was
a compliment or not.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
tyngewic...@ntlworld.com
intelligence; quick-witted, clever' then adds '(In standard English
used chiefly in speaking of children or one's inferiors.)' Which is a
pity, because I can't think of a good synonym that doesn't have
equally negative connotations. 'Intelligent' won't do because it is
even more patronising and there is concern about the validity of
intelligence tests, 'quick-witted' suggests there may be a certain
shallowness of insight and 'clever', as George Mikes observed, can
have implications of deviousness. 'Brilliant' is too high praise to
give, except to a very few people, although sometimes the bright among
us may have a brilliant idea.
Perhaps one can never pass a comment on the mental abilities of one's
colleagues without sounding patronising, but it's hard not to,
sometimes.
--
TG
Pat Durkin
news:8a79b478-ec61-48fc...@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com
> On 1 Nov, 17:05, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>> tyngewick.gawc...@ntlworld.com wrote:
>>> On 31 Oct, 22:23, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> TsuiDF wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 31, 5:40 pm, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>>>>>> compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but
>>>>>> I'm more doubtful about English.
>>>>> Despite comments about potential negativity elsethread, I can
>>>>> *only* imagine taking it as a compliment. Maybe this says more
>>>>> about one's self-image than it does about the person making the
>>>>> remark.... I have felt for so long, in so many situations, that I
>>>>> am trying to keep up with very macho men, that if anyone called
>>>>> me formidable, I would take it as one of the highest compliments
>>>>> as I would imagine it meant I was as competent as they see
>>>>> themselves as being.
>>>>> I say, take the compliment and don't borrow trouble.
>>>>> But wadda I know....
>>>> Having spent my working life in male-dominated environments, I
>>>> have some sympathy with that view but my experience has made me
>>>> very sensitive to patronising nuances and deeply suspicious of
>>>> anything which might seem like a compliment from such sources.
>>>> (Goodness knows what that says about my self-image.)
>>
>>
>>
>>>> How do you feel if you are described as "bright"? That really
>>>> raises my hackles.
>>
>>> Better than being called 'dim'. I use 'bright' as one of my highest
>>> words of praise - possibly because I have to spend so much time with
>>> people who aren't.
>>
>>
> I see OED defines one of the meanings of 'bright' as 'displaying great
> intelligence; quick-witted, clever' then adds '(In standard English
> used chiefly in speaking of children or one's inferiors.)'
>
> Perhaps one can never pass a comment on the mental abilities of one's
> colleagues without sounding patronising, but it's hard not to,
> sometimes.
Jan. 2007. It wasn't "bright", that drew attention, but that was,
perhaps, second choice as a patronizing descriptive (following clean,
and preceding articulate, nice-looking):
WASHINGTON - Delaware Sen. Joseph Biden spent his first official day as
a 2008 presidential candidate defending his description of likely
Democratic competitor Barack Obama as the "first mainstream
African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a
nice-looking guy."
Steve Hayes
But real peanut butter is hard to find these days.
So much of what is sold as peanut butter has additives, like sugar
(yeccccch!).
Real peanut butter needs to be mooshed up before spreading to mix the oil in.
Steve Hayes
It was a bit like lemon meringue pie without the lemon.
Anyone have the recipe?
Steve Hayes
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
>> Other words where different syllables are stressed
>>
>> laboratory
>> kilometre
>> devotee
>>
>> The last was once used as a shibboleth in a competion for an English
>> announcer for the South African Broadcasting Corporation. They were
>> given a passage to read, and those who pronounced "devotee" correctly
>> were placed on the short list.
>
>What other pronunciation is there of "devotee"?
There's deVOtee and DEvotee.
The competition judges regarded the former as correct.
Pat Durkin
news:19bpg4pnbl2mqknea...@4ax.com
> I HATE fake peanut butter.
>
> But real peanut butter is hard to find these days.
>
> So much of what is sold as peanut butter has additives, like sugar
> (yeccccch!).
>
> Real peanut butter needs to be mooshed up before spreading to mix the
> oil in.
I eat Smuckers, when I can't find Shurfine Natural (Creamy) peanut
butter, without preservatives, but with salt for flavor. In the
summertime, after I mix the product, I keep it in the refrigerator, but
in the cold season, the re-emergence of the oil is slow enough that the
entire jar doesn't need re-mixing.
(If I go to the deli counter in my usual supermarket, or to a Co-op
store, I can find the salt-free version in crunchy and in creamy style.
It is kept in a refrigerated cabinet, because it is not shelf-stable.
Peanut oil, well-rendered, is slow to turn rancid, but when packed with
the crushed nuts, is prone to rancidity in relatively short order. Thank
goodness for Africa, to have provided this helpful legume. In the US,
of course, we also bless the name of Geo. Washington Carver for turning
this groundnut into popular human food.)
Hope you find a source in your country. But, if need be, maybe you
could roast and grind your own goobers.
LFS
> On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:42:11 +1100, "John Holmes" <see...@instead.com> wrote:
>
>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> Other words where different syllables are stressed
>>>
>>> laboratory
>>> kilometre
>>> devotee
>>>
>>> The last was once used as a shibboleth in a competion for an English
>>> announcer for the South African Broadcasting Corporation. They were
>>> given a passage to read, and those who pronounced "devotee" correctly
>>> were placed on the short list.
>> What other pronunciation is there of "devotee"?
>
> There's deVOtee and DEvotee.
>
> The competition judges regarded the former as correct.
>
>
How odd. I think I say "devoTEE" but it's possible that I don't in fact
emphasise any of the syllables. I have certainly never heard the
emphasis placed on either of the first two.
CDB
> My mother had a Canadian friend who made crumb pie.
> It was a bit like lemon meringue pie without the lemon.
> Anyone have the recipe?
Could you have misheard "cream pie"? It has a custard filling and
could be topped with meringue, I suppose, although the usual topping
hereabouts is whipped cream. The common variations are banana cream
pie and coconut cream pie, googling for which should get you plenty of
recipes. Boston cream pie is good too, but it's a filled cake.
There is also something called "creampie", but I didn't look too
closely.
Bob Cunningham
wrote:
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>> My mother had a Canadian friend who made crumb pie.
>
>> It was a bit like lemon meringue pie without the lemon.
>
>> Anyone have the recipe?
Google has lots of them. 50,000 hits on "crumb pie. 35 hits on
"custard crumb pie" including one for rhubarb custard crumb pie.
>Could you have misheard "cream pie"?
Probably not.
Wood Avens
Same here. I rhyme it, more or less, with "seventeen". I don't
remember ever having heard it pronounced any other way (in BrE, that
is; I don't know that I've ever heard it said by an AmE speaker).
CDB
> On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:48:56 -0400, "CDB" wrote:
>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> My mother had a Canadian friend who made crumb pie.
>>> It was a bit like lemon meringue pie without the lemon.
>>> Anyone have the recipe?
> Google has lots of them. 50,000 hits on "crumb pie. 35 hits on
> "custard crumb pie" including one for rhubarb custard crumb pie.
Thing is, they'd tend to have a crumb topping, which would somewhat
reduce their resemblance to lemon meringue pie (see above). A custard
pie would be a cream pie by another name, no?
>> Could you have misheard "cream pie"?
> Probably not.
Steve will know.
Robert Bannister
> And a "luh BORE uh tree" is a place where boring work is done?
I feel you still haven't "got" the BrE "short" o as in "hot/got", which
is the vowel we use in laboratory and which is quite different from
"ore/aw".
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> This brings to mind William Randolph Hearst's father's expostulation
> "They say I can't spell; they say I spell 'bird' 'B U R D'. Well if
> 'B U R D' doesn't spell 'bird', what the hell does it spell?"
I seem to remember a few posters here claiming that they pronounced some
ir/ur word pairs differently. I find it hard to imagine, but then I've
never really understood the "horse/hoarse" difference either.
--
Rob Bannister
Bob Cunningham
Yes, thank you, I see that now in _NSOED_*. Rather than calling it
the "short o", though, I would call it the low back rounded vowel,
while the sound in British--and my--"shore" is the open-mid back
rounded vowel**.
I'm curious about your terminology. If you call the low back rounded
vowel "short o", what do you call the low back unrounded vowel, the
one in "father". I think of the two as the same vowel with a
difference that's discernible only when I listen for it. According to
the IPA*** definition, they differ only in the small amount of lip
rounding used for the one and not the other.
Anyway, your "still haven't got" is hardly appropriate. That implies
both than I want it and that I may have it some day. Neither of those
is correct. I can do a fairly good job of pronouncing the low back
unrounded vowel, but I would have no reason and no desire to use it in
my speech--except maybe in diphthongs.
* _NSOED_ = _New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_
** http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/vowels.html
*** International Phonetic Alphabet
John Varela
(in article
<126b809d-5e79-47e7...@p31g2000prf.googlegroups.com>):
> On Oct 31, 12:57ï¿œpm, Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:40:00 +0000, LFS
>>
>> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>>> If you were described as formidable, would you take this as a
>>> compliment? I think I might if this were expressed in French but I'm
>>
>> more doubtful about English.
>>
>> I think it would depend on context. "Mr Smith is a formidable foe
>> in the race for a seat on the city council" would certainly be
>> complimentary.
>>
>> I'm having a hard time coming up with negative example.
>
> Then try using it as a qualifier for a noun with inherent negative
> connotations:
> a formidable womanizer (or nimpho)
> the ultimate/formidable flip-flopper
> a formidable bigot, or racist? nah, perhaps the connotation shouldn't
> be too negative.
You could do that, but all those uses of formidable sound forced to me.
I would be surprised to hear or read any of them.
--
John Varela
Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email.
Bob Cunningham
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Bob Cunningham wrote:
>
>> This brings to mind William Randolph Hearst's father's expostulation
>> "They say I can't spell; they say I spell 'bird' 'B U R D'. Well if
>> 'B U R D' doesn't spell 'bird', what the hell does it spell?"
>
>I seem to remember a few posters here claiming that they pronounced some
>ir/ur word pairs differently.
That difference exists between British "burrow" and "bird", according
to _NSOED_*:
burrow /"bVr<schwa>U/ n.2
bird /b<schwa>:d/ n.
In their version of ASCII IPA, as in Kirshenbaum ASCII IPA, [V] is the
open-mid back unrounded vowel of "but". I hear that a lot in British
speech in "ir" and "ur" words where I use [@r], and I think for me it
may be one of the most characteristic features of British
pronunciation.
>I find it hard to imagine, but then I've
>never really understood the "horse/hoarse" difference either.
I didn't know anyone pronounced them differently. _NSOED_ has the
same pronunciation for them:
hoarse /h<revc>:s/ a. & adv.
horse /h<revc>:s/ n.
The _Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary_**, which is the only
dictionary I know of that has British and American pronunciations side
by side in IPA***, shows the same pronunciation for "hoarse" and
"horse" except that the American pronunciations are rhotic and the
British nonrhotic.
* _NSOED_ = _The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_
** http://dictionary.cambridge.org/
*** IPA = The International Phonetic Alphabet
Bob Cunningham
wrote:
>A custard pie would be a cream pie by another name, no?
Doesn't seem right, but if you say so, I will temporarily refrain from
arguing about it.
John Varela
(in article <geibst$vfq$1...@aioe.org>):
> In the
> summertime, after I mix the product, I keep it in the refrigerator, but
> in the cold season, the re-emergence of the oil is slow enough that the
> entire jar doesn't need re-mixing.
When I was a child my mother kept the peanut butter jar upside down on
the shelf so the oil would be at the bottom when the jar was opened.
John Varela
(in article <tj8og45vs2ct54n69...@4ax.com>):
> On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 08:38:00 +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> La-BORA-tory is only stressed differently when spelled/spelt and
>> pronounced in the American way, as LAB-ratory.
>
> Not so. Spelled in the American way, it's "laboratory".
>
> But yes, pronounced in the American way, it's ['l&b r@ ,tO: ri:]
I'm an American and I pronounce it LAB-@-r@-TO-ry, and it's my
impression that the Brits say it l@-BORA-tree, eliding the second O,
sort of like they do with all those syllables in Worcestershire.
Bob Cunningham
wrote:
>On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:49:47 -0400, Pat Durkin wrote
>(in article <geibst$vfq$1...@aioe.org>):
>
>> In the
>> summertime, after I mix the product, I keep it in the refrigerator, but
>> in the cold season, the re-emergence of the oil is slow enough that the
>> entire jar doesn't need re-mixing.
>
>When I was a child my mother kept the peanut butter jar upside down on
>the shelf so the oil would be at the bottom when the jar was opened.
That reminds me of a common fallacy that I've wondered about. There
are people who actually recommend storing paint cans upside down so
there won't be a skin on top when you open them. I picture the skin
forming on the top, which is the bottom until you turn the can right
side up. Then I imagine trying to stir the paint and not stir the
skin at the bottom into the paint. I don't think I could do it.
Anyway, it makes no sense to me with peanut butter, either. When I
stir the oil into peanut butter, I like to see what I'm doing. I can
see better if the oil is on top.
Richard Yates
The oil more easily spills over the top than the peanut butter does when you
stir it. A glass jar lets you see what is happening. Try it.
Barbara Bailey
> "CDB" wrote:
>>A custard pie would be a cream pie by another name, no?
> Doesn't seem right, but if you say so, I will temporarily refrain from
> arguing about it.
I think that there may be a difference to many people, in that a custard
pie is made in an unbaked pie crust and both the filling and the crust are
baked together. The filling of a custard pie needs to be baked to set up.
In a cream pie, the crust is prebaked, empty, then the filling is added.
The filling of a cream pie needs to be chilled to set up.
Pat Durkin
news:gej221$58a$1...@registered.motzarella.org
I only get peanut butter in jars. (Although, just after WWII, at the
orphanage, the nuns opened gallon cans of the stuff, and then mixed in
corn oil. Apparently, the peanut oil was still being set aside for the
war effort. . .fine machine-tooling lubricant. . .or something.)
The Shurfine (a store brand generic kind of thing) has, at times,
settled when kept in storage for too long a time, and the solid part
got really solid. Then, I would set the jar on its side in a sunny
window for a day or so, gradually rolling the jar, and then standing it
on its lid, alternately with standing it on its bottom, _before_ opening
it and trying to mix it. That got the stuff halfway mixed, so the knife
job didn't take as long or make as much of a mess.
Steve Hayes
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>> My mother had a Canadian friend who made crumb pie.
>
>> It was a bit like lemon meringue pie without the lemon.
>
>> Anyone have the recipe?
>
>Could you have misheard "cream pie"? It has a custard filling and
>could be topped with meringue, I suppose, although the usual topping
>hereabouts is whipped cream. The common variations are banana cream
>pie and coconut cream pie, googling for which should get you plenty of
>recipes. Boston cream pie is good too, but it's a filled cake.
No, it was definitely crumb pie, though it was actually more of a tart than a
pie. The base was made of crumbs rather than pastry, and I think they were
mixed with vanilla. Then there was a layer of custard, and it was topped with
meringue.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
Aha, a dialect difference! I have the same meanings for "custard pie"
and "cream pie", but your "set up" is my "set".
One of Josephine Tey's characters tried to make a vanilla shape (=AmE
"vanilla pudding"), but it didn't "sit up". As I recall. I can't
find anything about it on the Web, even which book I think I'm
remembering.
--
Jerry Friedman
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
I gave up too soon. The book is /The Franchise Affair/, the pudding
was just a "shape" (quotation marks in original), and it didn't "stand
up". But I was close.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ii6sAAAAIAAJ&q=%22Josephine+Tey%22+shape+%22stand+up%22&pgis=1
--
Jerry Friedman
Barbara Bailey
> On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:48:56 -0400, "CDB" <belle...@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> My mother had a Canadian friend who made crumb pie.
>>
>>> It was a bit like lemon meringue pie without the lemon.
>>
>>> Anyone have the recipe?
>>
>>Could you have misheard "cream pie"? It has a custard filling and
>>could be topped with meringue, I suppose, although the usual topping
>>hereabouts is whipped cream. The common variations are banana cream
>>pie and coconut cream pie, googling for which should get you plenty of
>>recipes. Boston cream pie is good too, but it's a filled cake.
>
> No, it was definitely crumb pie, though it was actually more of a tart
> than a pie. The base was made of crumbs rather than pastry, and I
> think they were mixed with vanilla. Then there was a layer of custard,
> and it was topped with meringue.
>
>
I found one recipe for "Crumb Pie" that wasn't for "[something] crumb
pie"
<http://chestofbooks.com/food/recipes/Shirley-McNevich/Mom-Best-Recipes-
vol1/113-Crumb-Pie.html>
Tinyurl:
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/6cmf42>
113 - Crumb Pie
(by Hannah Garman - friend)
2 cups flour
1 cup white sugar
1/2 cup Crisco OR 1/2 cup Parkay margarine
1/2 cup Brer Rabbit molasses (green label)
1 tsp. baking soda
1 cup hot tap water
3/4 tsp. salt
1 - 10" pie crust (recipe #33 if you want to make it from scratch)
Mix by hand in a bowl - flour, sugar, salt, and Crisco/Parkay. Mix with
your hands until it's crumbly. Take out 1/2 cup of the crumb mixture and
set aside. In another bowl, mix with a spoon the molasses, water, baking
soda and stir until the baking soda fizzes. Add the crumb mixture to the
molasses mixture. Mix thoroughly, then pour into the 10" unbaked pie
crust. Pour the 1/2 cup of crumb mixture that you set aside over the top
of the pie. Bake at 325 degrees for 1 hour. Test with a toothpick for
doneness.
That recipe, however, is very close to what I know as "Shoo-Fly Pie":
<http://www.berksweb.com/pam/shoofly.html>
Shoo Fly Pie
Crumbs:
* 1 1/2 c. flour
* 1 1/4 c. brown sugar
* 1 1/2 Tbsp. margarine
Liquid:
* 2 eggs
* 1 1/2 tsp. baking soda
* 1 1/4 c. hot water
* 1 c. molasses
Mix the first ingredients to form crumbs, reserve 3/4 c. crumbs for the
topping. In another bowl, mix molasses, eggs, baking soda, hot water and
the remaining crumbs. Pour the molasses mix into a 10 inch unbaked pie
shell. Sprinkle top with the reserved crumbs. Bake at 375 degrees for 40
minutes.
R H Draney
>
>On Nov 1, 10:26=A0pm, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com"
><jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> One of Josephine Tey's characters tried to make a vanilla shape (=3DAmE
>> "vanilla pudding"), but it didn't "sit up". =A0As I recall. =A0I can't
>> find anything about it on the Web, even which book I think I'm
>> remembering.
>
>I gave up too soon. The book is /The Franchise Affair/, the pudding
>was just a "shape" (quotation marks in original), and it didn't "stand
>up". But I was close.
We did "shape" last year, I think...got there by way of "blancmange"....
Has anyone seen these packets of powder that are supposed to keep your meringue
from going flat?...I'll have to check the next time I'm in House of Rice and
find out what the key ingredient is....r
--
"Governor Palin, I served with Dan Quayle.
I knew Dan Quayle; Dan Quayle was a friend of mine.
Governor Palin, you're no Dan Quayle."
Ian Noble
<exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 07:41:57 +0900, Robert Bannister
><rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>Bob Cunningham wrote:
>>
>>> And a "luh BORE uh tree" is a place where boring work is done?
>>
>>I feel you still haven't "got" the BrE "short" o as in "hot/got", which
>>is the vowel we use in laboratory and which is quite different from
>>"ore/aw".
>
>Yes, thank you, I see that now in _NSOED_*. Rather than calling it
>the "short o", though, I would call it the low back rounded vowel,
>while the sound in British--and my--"shore" is the open-mid back
>rounded vowel**.
>
>I'm curious about your terminology. If you call the low back rounded
>vowel "short o", what do you call the low back unrounded vowel, the
>one in "father". I think of the two as the same vowel with a
>difference that's discernible only when I listen for it. According to
>the IPA*** definition, they differ only in the small amount of lip
>rounding used for the one and not the other.
That's not true of BrE as I speak it (either in my now fairly-RP
pronunciation or in the more strident tones of the part of Yorkshire
in which I grew up).
The vowels in "hot/got" and the vowel in "father", as I pronounce them
are quite different. They have quite different mouth positions as well
- not so much a difference in degree of lip-rounding as that rounding
is quite pronounced on "hot" and not present on "father" at all.
You can hear a comparison of the two in my own dulcet tones at
http://www.fredd.clara.net/Voice/HotFather.WAV
Cheers - Ian
Ian Noble
<exw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Anyway, your "still haven't got" is hardly appropriate.
I think he meant "got " in the sense of "I don't get it", not a
suggestion that you might actually speak that way at some point.
Cheers - Ian.
(BrE: Yorks., Notts., Hants.)
Ian Noble
wrote:
>On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 05:41:29 -0400, Bob Cunningham wrote
They've been absent for so long that it can hardly be said nowadays
that they're elided; rather, they're a historical curiosity of the
spelling, preserved in amber for the eternal confusion of foreigners
and amusement of locals.
(Actually, if you're non-rhotic, the only missing sound is the "ce" in
the middle, which presumably became elided because it turns
"Woo/stuh/shuh" into "Woo/seh/stuh/shuh", with two very similar
syllibants adjacent.)
A question for the Brits out there. An exception to the
"Lester"/"Wooster" pattern, in my speech at least, is "Cirencester",
which, following my parents' example, I have always pronounced
"Siren-sester". Is that a genuine exception, or have I picked up
anomalous pronunciation?
Cheers - Ian
Mark Brader
> That's right up there with being described as 'articulate'. The
> not-at-all-subtext is 'but who would've expected that a panda could
> dance?!'
> Hackles up, release the hounds, full speed ahead, be completely
> offended. That is condescension pure and simple. ...
That's the same sort of reaction some people had when one of the
other candidates for the Democratic Party presidential nomination
described Barack Obama as "articulate", among other things, in
early 2007. This perceived gaffe helped convince people that there
were better candidates
than
Joe Biden, who is now Obama's running mate.
--
Mark Brader | "It is refreshing to have Republican presidential
Toronto | candidates we can believe about *something*.
m...@vex.net | I believe what Bush says about Dole...
| And... what Dole says about Bush." --Craig B. Leman
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Mark Brader
> intelligence; quick-witted, clever' then adds '(In standard English
> used chiefly in speaking of children or one's inferiors.)' Which is a
> pity, because I can't think of a good synonym that doesn't have
> equally negative connotations. 'Intelligent' won't do because it is
> even more patronising and there is concern about the validity of
> intelligence tests, 'quick-witted' suggests there may be a certain
> shallowness of insight and 'clever', as George Mikes observed, can
> have implications of deviousness. 'Brilliant' is too high praise to
> give, except to a very few people, although sometimes the bright among
> us may have a brilliant idea.
Well, *I* have no objection to being described as any of the above.
Unless the person seems to mean it sarcastically, of course.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "This is a film of non-stop action
m...@vex.net | and non-start intelligence." --Mark Leeper
LFS
>
>
> A question for the Brits out there. An exception to the
> "Lester"/"Wooster" pattern, in my speech at least, is "Cirencester",
> which, following my parents' example, I have always pronounced
> "Siren-sester". Is that a genuine exception, or have I picked up
> anomalous pronunciation?
>
We've discussed this before. I think the conclusion was that most
pronounce it the way you do, other than the ridiculously affected, who
might say "Sinster" or "Sissister", and the locals, who say "Zoiren".
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
John Holmes
> On Sun, 02 Nov 2008 07:41:57 +0900, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> Bob Cunningham wrote:
>>
>>> And a "luh BORE uh tree" is a place where boring work is done?
>>
>> I feel you still haven't "got" the BrE "short" o as in "hot/got",
>> which is the vowel we use in laboratory and which is quite different
>> from "ore/aw".
>
> Yes, thank you, I see that now in _NSOED_*. Rather than calling it
> the "short o", though, I would call it the low back rounded vowel,
> while the sound in British--and my--"shore" is the open-mid back
> rounded vowel**.
>
> I'm curious about your terminology. If you call the low back rounded
> vowel "short o", what do you call the low back unrounded vowel, the
> one in "father".
The "Aah" vowel?: I have heard it called "broad a", as distinct from
"long a" /eI/ and "short a" /&/. (Not that I necessarily advocate that
terminology.)
> I think of the two as the same vowel with a
> difference that's discernible only when I listen for it. According to
> the IPA*** definition, they differ only in the small amount of lip
> rounding used for the one and not the other.
Whereas to us they are completely different: we think of one as a kind
of O and the other as a kind of A. That probably doesn't make a lot of
sense to linguists, who would point out that we often use different
vowel sounds for the same letters and the same vowel sounds for
different letters. And yet I'm sure that it indicates something
meaningful about the way we form our internal models when we learn to
read and write.
> Anyway, your "still haven't got" is hardly appropriate.
I'm sure that by "got", Rob means the same sense as in "got the joke".
"Grokked", perhaps.
> That implies
> both than I want it and that I may have it some day. Neither of those
> is correct. I can do a fairly good job of pronouncing the low back
> unrounded vowel, but I would have no reason and no desire to use it in
> my speech--except maybe in diphthongs.
Perhaps you could be vaccinated against it. You can never be too careful
if you might be exposed the BBC channel or some other carrier.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
John Holmes
> On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:53:33 +0000, LFS
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:42:11 +1100, "John Holmes"
>>> <see...@instead.com> wrote:
>>>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>>> Other words where different syllables are stressed
[...]
>>>>> devotee
>>>>>
>>>>> The last was once used as a shibboleth in a competion for an
>>>>> English announcer for the South African Broadcasting Corporation.
>>>>> They were given a passage to read, and those who pronounced
>>>>> "devotee" correctly were placed on the short list.
>>>> What other pronunciation is there of "devotee"?
>>>
>>> There's deVOtee and DEvotee.
>>>
>>> The competition judges regarded the former as correct.
>>>
>> How odd. I think I say "devoTEE" but it's possible that I don't in
>> fact emphasise any of the syllables. I have certainly never heard the
>> emphasis placed on either of the first two.
I'd say there's a slight secondary stress on the first.
>
> Same here. I rhyme it, more or less, with "seventeen". I don't
> remember ever having heard it pronounced any other way (in BrE, that
> is; I don't know that I've ever heard it said by an AmE speaker).
Same here, which is why I was puzzled.
I have very occasionally heard people give it a French-like
pronunciation (...-tay), but assumed they were actually using the French
word in English, rather than it being an alternative English
pronunciation. The sort of thing you might see in italics in print from
an art critic, for example.
Mike Page
...
>
>
> I know what it means, but am handicapped by an ineradicable habit of
> linking it in my mind with "formication"* and other antinesses. I don't
> so often get stuck tunes too much to bear, but I do get Stuck False
> Etymology Syndrome somethink chronic.
Entymology,
Shirley?
Southampton
--
Mike Page
Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.