Do you think 12:00pm is noon or midnight?
jen...@mailinator.com
I was surprised some people think it means * when I'd assume anyone
meant * if they said 12:00pm.
* = noon/midnight
If you are interested, you can vote here:
http://www.buzzdash.com/?page=buzzbite&BB_id=27277
(It's just a common poll site, no gimmicks, just click on noon or
midnight in the box.)
Don Aitken
What about us sensible people who don't think that it means either -
or, indeed, that it means anything?
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
R H Draney
>
>On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:00:38 -0700, jen...@mailinator.com wrote:
>
>>When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
>
>or, indeed, that it means anything?
It means something to my VCR when I'm programming it to record a movie when I
can't be there to watch it, and to my computer when I'm setting up "Scheduled
Tasks"...conveniently, it means the same thing to both....r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
Robert Bannister
I have no problem in recognising 12 pm as noon and 12 am as midnight.
What I get confused over is which day 12.30 am belongs to. I have twice
failed to be awake when an overseas visitor turned up on Saturday at
12.30 am because my stupid head keeps telling me this means "after
midnight on Saturday night" rather than Friday night. For some reason, I
acknowledge 1 am onwards as being morning, but not midnight.
--
Rob Bannister
Joe Fineman
> When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
I think, "Don't be silly".
I read, once, in some reference book (I forget which), that 12:00
m. (for meridies) means noon, and 12:00 p.m. (for post meridiem) means
midnight. I have not seen anyone dare to impose that extreme of
pedantry in actual use.
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net
||: Is God one of man's blunders, or is man one of God's? :||
Garrett Wollman
>I read, once, in some reference book (I forget which), that 12:00
>m. (for meridies) means noon,
That would certainly be confusing, since another convention is that
12m means midnight, and 12n means noon. When it matters, I just
switch to the 24-hour clock and then I don't need to worry: 1200 is
always and uniformly noon, and 1200Z is always noon, Coordinated
Universal Time. (Plus, that gives me two ways to represent midnight
depending on which day I want to regard it as being a part of.)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wol...@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Robert Lieblich
>
> In article <uvecrr...@verizon.net>, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >I read, once, in some reference book (I forget which), that 12:00
> >m. (for meridies) means noon,
>
> That would certainly be confusing, since another convention is that
> 12m means midnight, and 12n means noon. When it matters, I just
> switch to the 24-hour clock and then I don't need to worry: 1200 is
> always and uniformly noon, and 1200Z is always noon, Coordinated
> Universal Time. (Plus, that gives me two ways to represent midnight
> depending on which day I want to regard it as being a part of.)
A heavily traveled bridge in the District of Columbia is closed for
some reconstruction during July and August. The officials decided to
keep it open through July 4 (a Wednesday this year), and the signs
they put up said that the bridge would close "12 p.m. Thursday, July
5." I was planning to be out of town the whole week (and so I was),
so I wasn't particularly concerned about the exact closing date (the
closing itself is having some adverse effects on my commute), but I
decided they probably meant "midnight," and more specifically the
midnight that divided July 4 from July 5.[1]
Well, I was half right. As I learned upon my return, the closing did
occur at midnight, but it was the midnight between July 5 and July 6.
Go figure.
[1] I'll wager that the majority of AUE-ers, encountering "12:00 p.m.
July 5" with no context, would interpret as meaning noon on July 5.
But I live in the DC area, and I know better.
Fuzzy
> A heavily traveled bridge in the District of Columbia is closed for
> some reconstruction during July and August. The officials decided to
> keep it open through July 4 (a Wednesday this year), and the signs
> they put up said that the bridge would close "12 p.m. Thursday, July
> 5."
> I
> midnight that divided July 4 from July 5.[1]
>
> Well, I was half right. As I learned upon my return, the closing did
> occur at midnight, but it was the midnight between July 5 and July 6.
Me, I'd write "12:01pm" or "12:01am", thus resolving any confusion.
In speech, I'd use "noon" or "midnight", and then have to clarify
which "midnight" I meant ("the one between Friday and Saturday").
Robert Lieblich
>
> On Jul 11, 11:06 am, Robert Lieblich <r_s_liebl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > A heavily traveled bridge in the District of Columbia is closed for
> > some reconstruction during July and August. The officials decided to
> > keep it open through July 4 (a Wednesday this year), and the signs
> > they put up said that the bridge would close "12 p.m. Thursday, July
> > 5."
> > I
> > decided they probably meant "midnight," and more specifically the
> > midnight that divided July 4 from July 5.[1]
> >
> > Well, I was half right. As I learned upon my return, the closing did
> > occur at midnight, but it was the midnight between July 5 and July 6.
>
> Me, I'd write "12:01pm" or "12:01am", thus resolving any confusion.
You'll never get a job with the District of Columbia that way.
> In speech, I'd use "noon" or "midnight", and then have to clarify
> which "midnight" I meant ("the one between Friday and Saturday").
Killjoy!
jen...@mailinator.com
Swamp Taro
> When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
Midnight. Why do you ask?
According to the Chicago Manual of Style (which sets the style of most
academic presses in the United States), noon is "12:00 m." and
midnight is "12:00 p.m."
Aside from that, it'd be weird for a unique occurrence (midday,
meridies) to occur after itself (after midday, post meridiem).
jen...@mailinator.com
> On Jul 10, 7:00?pm, jenn wrote:
>
> > When you hear 12:00pm, do you firstthinkofnoon, ormidnight?
>
> Midnight. Why do you ask?
>
> According to the Chicago Manual of Style (which sets the style of most
>
> Aside from that, it'd be weird for a unique occurrence (midday,
> meridies) to occur after itself (after midday, post meridiem).
I think TV Guide has it right.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Jul 10, 7:00?pm, jenn wrote:
>> When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
>
> Midnight. Why do you ask?
So almost exactly twelve hours away from 12:00:00.0000000000001 pm?
If I see a clock that says "12:00" for noon, I can be sure that by the
time the light hits my eyes, it's "pm" (by that clock), so it
might as well say so. Ditto midnight and "am".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |_Bauplan_ is just the German word
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for blueprint. Typically, one
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |switches languages to indicate
|profundity.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Richard Dawkins
(650)857-7572
Robert Bannister
> In article <uvecrr...@verizon.net>, Joe Fineman <jo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I read, once, in some reference book (I forget which), that 12:00
>>m. (for meridies) means noon,
>
>
> That would certainly be confusing, since another convention is that
> 12m means midnight, and 12n means noon. When it matters, I just
> switch to the 24-hour clock and then I don't need to worry: 1200 is
> always and uniformly noon, and 1200Z is always noon, Coordinated
> Universal Time. (Plus, that gives me two ways to represent midnight
> depending on which day I want to regard it as being a part of.)
I think I prefer the method (mainly used in Germany, I think) of writing
midnight as 00:00, rather than 12:00. It makes sense to me for 1 to
follow 0 and 13 to follow 12.
--
Rob Bannister
matt271...@yahoo.co.uk
12 pm is obviously midnight, and 12 am is obviously noon. If it was
the other way around then you would go from 11 am to 12 pm and then
back to 1 pm, 2 pm etc. which is completely illogical. Similarly,
around midnight you would go from 11 pm to 12 am and then back to 1
am, 2 am etc.
matt271...@yahoo.co.uk
On the other hand, 12:01 pm is just after noon, so to be consistent
12:00 pm should be noon.
Hope that's helped to clear things up.
Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]
> On the other hand, 12:01 pm is just after noon, so to be consistent
> 12:00 pm should be noon.
> Hope that's helped to clear things up.
I saw that wink.
Anyway, nothing will ever clear up what 12:00 am and 12:00 pm mean in
all contexts. Logic has precious little to do with usage, and usage
is hopelessly confoozled.
Which doesn't stop people from posting what they are positive "the
only correct answer" is -- and "the only correct answer" from varying
post by post.
Percival P. Cassidy
Since there are no such things as 12:00pm and 12:00am, I always have to
try to guess from the context.
There is 12 noon and there is 12 midnight.
-=-
Perce
R H Draney
>
>Since there are no such things as 12:00pm and 12:00am, I always have to
>try to guess from the context.
>
>There is 12 noon and there is 12 midnight.
If you have a clock with an alarm feature that also distinguishes am from pm,
set it to sound at 12:00am...report back here when it goes off....
If you have a clock with an alarm feature that also distinguishes am from pm,
and it has a "12 noon" and a "12 midnight" instead of "12:00am" and "12:00pm",
alert the media....r
jen...@mailinator.com
> On Jul 11, 12:00 am, jenn...@mailinator.com wrote:
>
> > When you hear 12:00pm, do you firstthinkofnoon, ormidnight?
>
> > meant * if they said 12:00pm.
>
> > * =noon/midnight
>
> > If you are interested, you can vote here:http://www.buzzdash.com/?page=buzzbite&BB_id=27277
>
> > (It's just a common poll site, no gimmicks, just click onnoonor
>
> 12 pm is obviouslymidnight, and 12 am is obviouslynoon. If it was
> the other way around then you would go from 11 am to 12 pm and then
> back to 1 pm, 2 pm etc. which is completely illogical. Similarly,
> am, 2 am etc.
At 12:00 noon, half the day has already, at that instant passed, and
your are in the PM, hence 12:00 PM is noon. (Just as 3 - 2 = exactly
1)
jen...@mailinator.com
> When you hear 12:00pm, do you firstthinkofnoon, ormidnight?
>
> meant * if they said 12:00pm.
>
> * =noon/midnight
>
> If you are interested, you can vote here:http://www.buzzdash.com/?page=buzzbite&BB_id=27277
>
> (It's just a common poll site, no gimmicks, just click onnoonormidnightin the box.)
Who on Google uses "12:00 PM noon" as opposed to "12:00
AM noon?" -The searches below also match with "p.m." and "(noon)."
The search is for a string, not words anywhere in a document.
"12:00 PM noon" matches "about 195,000" documents on Google
"12:00PM noon" matches "about 32,700"
"12:00 AM noon" matches about 436
"12:00AM noon" matches about 49
So:
Total documents using "12:00pm noon" or "12:00 pm noon" = 227,700 /
228,185 = 99.8%
Total documents using "12:00am noon" or "12:00 am noon" = 485 /
228,185 = 0.2%
I believe the occurances of people clarifying what they are saying
after adding the AM/PM is representative of total usage.
I have to agree with the usage Google knows (well, Google is not
conscious, at present...)
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
jen...@mailinator.com posted:
> When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
>
> meant * if they said 12:00pm.
>
> * = noon/midnight
I try to write 12 noon and 12 midnight instead
of 12:00, to which "am" or "pm" really do not apply
since 12 on the mark is neither "ante" nor "post".
English is Munglish.
Jai Maharaj
http://tinyurl.com/24fq83
http://www.mantra.com/jai
http://www.mantra.com/jyotish
Om Shanti
Ian Noble
I probably don't think of either. I'm more likely to mentally curse
whatever idiot said it, and seek clarification. The question is
unasnwerable except by convention (and convention is not probably
sufficiently established to answer the question definitively).
<tongue-in-cheek>
Reasoning with language. noon is neither am nor pm. It *is* the
meridian, so can't logically be either ante or post itself. Midnight,
by contrast, can equally be either - or even both.
Reasoning with mathematics doesn't help. If time is regarded as an
infinitley divisible, continuous line or circle, there are two
possibilities. First, there's the mathermatical equivalent of the
verbal one: the meridian point is a set all on its own, and bounds
both "am" and "pm" without being in either. Or alternately, if it's
insisted that the circle of the day is to be divided into two
discrete, continuous parts, labelled "am" and "pm", and with noon one
of the two points at which they meet, then noon still bounds both
parts, but now *must* be in one part or the other (only).
Unfortunately, nothing then says which. So that's no help either,
other than to point out that a convention is needed - and we already
knew that.
Reasoning scientifically, things get even worse. Both quantum
mechanics (Heisenberg uncertainty principle) and Special Relativty
(relativity of simultaneity) arguably preclude the ability to define a
precise moment as noon anyway, and even raise the question as to
whether the phrase "precise moment" has meaning.
Reasoning commercially actually gets results. Whilst not remotely
definitive, the cheap Casio digital watch currently on my wrist takes
the simplest approach to the matter, namely that "am" or "pm" is a
property of the hour. So 12:00 is the same as (eg) 12:01, making noon
"pm". That works for me.
</tongue-in-cheek>
Cheers - Ian
Mike Barnes
>When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
No, I think "please, not again!". I don't think I've ever come across
the question of what 12:00pm means (answer: it's not clear, so don't use
it) except in this newsgroup.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Peter Moylan
> When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
I think that the speaker is being deliberately obscure. If pressed, I
guess I would say that it means 12 hours past noon.
Fortunately I don't have any sort of clock that says "pm" as part of the
time. The analogue clock lets me guess, and all the other clocks,
watches, and timers that I possess count from 0:00 to 23:59.
Elsethread someone mentioned a video recorder with a 12-hour clock. Does
such a thing really exist? I don't think I've ever seen one in Australia.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Mike Lyle
[...]
> If you have a clock with an alarm feature that also distinguishes am
> from pm, set it to sound at 12:00am...report back here when it goes
> off....
Against instincts evolved through natural selection in my gene-line
since about 1961, I've changed the display on my phone to 12-hour clock,
and set the alarm for what it calls "12.00 am".
As I usually say when this subject comes up, European railway timetables
used to use 23.59 for "arrival midnight" and 00.01 for "departure
midnight", and probably still do. I think this very sensible.
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
John J. Chew III
<jen...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>At 12:00 noon, half the day has already, at that instant passed, and
>your are in the PM, hence 12:00 PM is noon. (Just as 3 - 2 = exactly
>1)
Except, e.g., on December 31st, 2005?
John
--
John Chew (poslfit on MD) * jjc...@math.utoronto.ca * http://www.poslfit.com
Mike Barnes
>Elsethread someone mentioned a video recorder with a 12-hour clock. Does
>such a thing really exist? I don't think I've ever seen one in Australia.
Nor here in the UK.
I think the same person mentioned that Windows' Task Scheduler also did
the am/pm thing. As I understand it, that's a matter of choice (in
Control Panel). Certainly I see 24-hour-clock schedule times here.
Evan Kirshenbaum
Was the question about a real 12-hour clock or one that distinguished
a.m. and p.m.? If the latter, that's certainly the most common case
in the US, although I suspect that most VCRs can be configured to do
it either way.
You will occasionally come across someone considered technologically
inept being noted as having a VCR that's "blinking 12 o'clock". For
most VCRs, the display will blink "12:00" ("a.m." if it displays it)
until the clock is set. So someone whose VCR is still blinking twelve
o'clock is someone who's never figured out how to set its clock. I
assume that in other countries it blinks ... what? zero o'clock?
zero hundred?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Of course, over the first 10^-10
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |seconds and 10^-30 cubic
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |centimeters it averages out to
|zero, but when you look in
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |detail....
(650)857-7572 | Philip Morrison
Mike Barnes
>Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> writes:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>Elsethread someone mentioned a video recorder with a 12-hour
>>>clock. Does such a thing really exist? I don't think I've ever seen
>>>one in Australia.
>>
>> Nor here in the UK.
>>
>> I think the same person mentioned that Windows' Task Scheduler also
>> did the am/pm thing. As I understand it, that's a matter of choice
>> (in Control Panel). Certainly I see 24-hour-clock schedule times
>> here.
>
>Was the question about a real 12-hour clock or one that distinguished
>a.m. and p.m.? If the latter, that's certainly the most common case
>in the US, although I suspect that most VCRs can be configured to do
>it either way.
I'm sure it was the latter, and I'm surprised to hear there's any doubt
in your mind about that. To me (and Peter, I imagine) a clock with an
am/pm indicator is every bit a "12-hour clock". AFAIK a 12-hour clock
without an am/pm indicator is normally called "analogue". :-)
>You will occasionally come across someone considered technologically
>inept being noted as having a VCR that's "blinking 12 o'clock". For
>most VCRs, the display will blink "12:00" ("a.m." if it displays it)
>until the clock is set. So someone whose VCR is still blinking twelve
>o'clock is someone who's never figured out how to set its clock. I
>assume that in other countries it blinks ... what? zero o'clock?
>zero hundred?
I just looked (our VCR's time isn't set, not because we don't know how
to, but because we've never had any reason to do it).
It blinks "00:00".
Oleg Lego
>Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> writes:
>
>> In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>Elsethread someone mentioned a video recorder with a 12-hour
>>>clock. Does such a thing really exist? I don't think I've ever seen
>>>one in Australia.
>>
>> Nor here in the UK.
>>
>> I think the same person mentioned that Windows' Task Scheduler also
>> did the am/pm thing. As I understand it, that's a matter of choice
>> (in Control Panel). Certainly I see 24-hour-clock schedule times
>> here.
>
>Was the question about a real 12-hour clock or one that distinguished
>a.m. and p.m.? If the latter, that's certainly the most common case
>in the US, although I suspect that most VCRs can be configured to do
>it either way.
>
>You will occasionally come across someone considered technologically
>inept being noted as having a VCR that's "blinking 12 o'clock". For
>most VCRs, the display will blink "12:00" ("a.m." if it displays it)
>until the clock is set. So someone whose VCR is still blinking twelve
>o'clock is someone who's never figured out how to set its clock. I
>assume that in other countries it blinks ... what? zero o'clock?
>zero hundred?
I don't know the answer, but I can tell you that it's fun to tell a
person that when it gets to Daylight Saving Time, he should change his
flashing 12:00 to a flashing 1:00.
contrex
> I just looked (our VCR's time isn't set, not because we don't know how
> to, but because we've never had any reason to do it).
>
> It blinks "00:00".
>
> --
> Mike Barnes
> Cheshire, England
So does mine. A train that leaves at 5 minutes past midnight is shown
as leaving at 00:05 in the timetable.
Hatunen
That's because 00:xx lasts for sixty minutes; 24:xx lasts for an
instant.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Evan Kirshenbaum
> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> writes:
>>
>>> In alt.usage.english, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>Elsethread someone mentioned a video recorder with a 12-hour
>>>>clock. Does such a thing really exist? I don't think I've ever
>>>>seen one in Australia.
>>>
>>> Nor here in the UK.
>>>
>>> I think the same person mentioned that Windows' Task Scheduler also
>>> did the am/pm thing. As I understand it, that's a matter of choice
>>> (in Control Panel). Certainly I see 24-hour-clock schedule times
>>> here.
>>
>>Was the question about a real 12-hour clock or one that
>>distinguished a.m. and p.m.? If the latter, that's certainly the
>>most common case in the US, although I suspect that most VCRs can be
>>configured to do it either way.
>
> I'm sure it was the latter, and I'm surprised to hear there's any
> doubt in your mind about that. To me (and Peter, I imagine) a clock
> with an am/pm indicator is every bit a "12-hour clock".
I figured that that couldn't be it since (1) they are so common here
and (2) since so many devices allow you to switch I would have
expected people to have come across the configuration option when they
used their own 24-hour versions.[1]
> AFAIK a 12-hour clock without an am/pm indicator is normally called
> "analogue". :-)
Nah. The clocks in my cars, the clock on my stove, and the clock on
my microwave have no idea whether it's a.m. or p.m. They just go
round and round in a twelve hour cycle. The clock on my desk at work
does the same, though it's in BCD.
http://scientificsonline.com/Product.asp?pn=3039700
(although mine is black with red LEDs)
>>You will occasionally come across someone considered technologically
>>inept being noted as having a VCR that's "blinking 12 o'clock". For
>>most VCRs, the display will blink "12:00" ("a.m." if it displays it)
>>until the clock is set. So someone whose VCR is still blinking
>>twelve o'clock is someone who's never figured out how to set its
>>clock. I assume that in other countries it blinks ... what? zero
>>o'clock? zero hundred?
>
> I just looked (our VCR's time isn't set, not because we don't know how
> to, but because we've never had any reason to do it).
The main reason is typically that the blinking is annoying. Which is,
of course, the point.
[1] Yes, that really is
I figured that couldn't be it since ... since so many devices
allow you to switch I would have expected ...
I wouldn't have thought that "since" was a word you could double
like that but "I figured X since since Y Z" actually seems right,
though I probably wouldn't have done it if there wasn't another
reason separating them. (I think I probably would have made one
of them "because".)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |I like giving talks to industry,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |because one of the things that I've
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |found is that you really can't
|learn anything at the Harvard
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |Business School.
(650)857-7572 | Clayton Christensen
| Harvard Business School
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Peter Duncanson
>On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:33:40 -0000, contrex
><mike.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 12 Jul, 20:47, Mike Barnes <mikebar...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I just looked (our VCR's time isn't set, not because we don't know how
>>> to, but because we've never had any reason to do it).
>>>
>>> It blinks "00:00".
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mike Barnes
>>> Cheshire, England
>>
>>So does mine. A train that leaves at 5 minutes past midnight is shown
>>as leaving at 00:05 in the timetable.
>
>That's because 00:xx lasts for sixty minutes; 24:xx lasts for an
>instant.
Speak to my kitchen cooker/stove about that.
It goes from 23:59 to 24:00 to 00:01 at one minute intervals
(natch).
I was startled the first time I saw it do this.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Mike Barnes
>>>
>>>Was the question about a real 12-hour clock or one that
>>>distinguished a.m. and p.m.? If the latter, that's certainly the
>>>most common case in the US, although I suspect that most VCRs can be
>>>configured to do it either way.
>>
>> I'm sure it was the latter, and I'm surprised to hear there's any
>> doubt in your mind about that. To me (and Peter, I imagine) a clock
>> with an am/pm indicator is every bit a "12-hour clock".
>
>I figured that that couldn't be it since (1) they are so common here
>and (2) since so many devices allow you to switch I would have
>expected people to have come across the configuration option when they
>used their own 24-hour versions.[1]
Hmmm. I wouldn't expect to find a 12-hour clock option on a VCR in this
country. A quick look at the manual for our VCR doesn't reveal one. But
I'm no expert and it might be that other VCRs have them.
VCRs are perhaps a special case because AFAIK one model is unlikely to
suit European and US markets, for reasons other than the clock.
>> AFAIK a 12-hour clock without an am/pm indicator is normally called
>> "analogue". :-)
>
>Nah. The clocks in my cars, the clock on my stove, and the clock on
>my microwave have no idea whether it's a.m. or p.m.
To further reinforce my point, I don't think the clock in my car or the
one on our cooker has a 12-hour clock option either. My microwave has a
0-hour clock.
>[...]
>
>>>You will occasionally come across someone considered technologically
>>>inept being noted as having a VCR that's "blinking 12 o'clock". For
>>>most VCRs, the display will blink "12:00" ("a.m." if it displays it)
>>>until the clock is set. So someone whose VCR is still blinking
>>>twelve o'clock is someone who's never figured out how to set its
>>>clock. I assume that in other countries it blinks ... what? zero
>>>o'clock? zero hundred?
>>
>> I just looked (our VCR's time isn't set, not because we don't know how
>> to, but because we've never had any reason to do it).
>
>The main reason is typically that the blinking is annoying. Which is,
>of course, the point.
It doesn't blink when the VCR is switched off, which is about 100% of
the time.
>[1] Yes, that really is
>
> I figured that couldn't be it since ... since so many devices
> allow you to switch I would have expected ...
>
> I wouldn't have thought that "since" was a word you could double
> like that but "I figured X since since Y Z" actually seems right,
> though I probably wouldn't have done it if there wasn't another
> reason separating them. (I think I probably would have made one
> of them "because".)
It doesn't seem right to me. I'd have written "I figured that couldn't
be it since (1) <first reason>, and (2) <second reason>", or "I figured
that couldn't be it (1) since <first reason>, and (2) since <second
reason>".
Steve MacGregor
> Reasoning with language. noon is neither am nor pm. It *is* the
> meridian, so can't logically be either ante or post itself. Midnight,
> by contrast, can equally be either - or even both.
What exactly do you mean by "meridian"?
--
Stefano
"A balanced diet is essential: too many Pringles and not enough
Doritos will KILL YOU DEAD!"
Steve MacGregor
> I just looked (our VCR's time isn't set, not because we don't know how
> to, but because we've never had any reason to do it).
>
> It blinks "00:00".
Because it thinks it's still midnight.
--
Stefano
"Also known as 12:00am."
Skitt
> Ian Noble skribis:
>> Reasoning with language. noon is neither am nor pm. It *is* the
>> meridian, so can't logically be either ante or post itself.
>> Midnight, by contrast, can equally be either - or even both.
>
> What exactly do you mean by "meridian"?
I think he means "meridies".
--
Skitt
Bill McCray
www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
> In article <1184108545.5...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
> jen...@mailinator.com posted:
> >
> > When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
> >
> > I was surprised some people think it means * when I'd assume anyone
> > meant * if they said 12:00pm.
> >
> > * = noon/midnight
> > . . .
>
> I try to write 12 noon and 12 midnight instead
> of 12:00, to which "am" or "pm" really do not apply
> since 12 on the mark is neither "ante" nor "post".
That is correct.
If I hear 12:00 p.m., I assume 12 noon, since 12:00 seems more closely
tied to 12:01 than to 11:59. However, I have seen signs where "12:00
p.m." was apparently intended to be midnight; for example, a
restaurant's sign saying that it is open from "10 a.m. to 12 p.m."
It's better to use the correct "noon" and "midnight" to avoid
confusion.
Bill
----------------------------------------------------------------
Reverse parts of the user name and ISP name for my e-address
Robert Bannister
> jen...@mailinator.com wrote:
>
>> When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
>
>
> I think that the speaker is being deliberately obscure. If pressed, I
> guess I would say that it means 12 hours past noon.
>
> Fortunately I don't have any sort of clock that says "pm" as part of the
> time. The analogue clock lets me guess, and all the other clocks,
> watches, and timers that I possess count from 0:00 to 23:59.
>
> Elsethread someone mentioned a video recorder with a 12-hour clock. Does
> such a thing really exist? I don't think I've ever seen one in Australia.
>
Mine's pretty old and can be set to either 12 or 24 hours. Annoyingly,
my new microwave oven only has a 12 clock, and my radio alarm shows
am/pm by a dash that is high or low, but I can never work out which
position is which, which is another reason for my hating daylight saving.
--
Rob Bannister
Skitt
> Peter Moylan wrote:
>> Elsethread someone mentioned a video recorder with a 12-hour clock.
>> Does such a thing really exist? I don't think I've ever seen one in
>> Australia.
>
> Mine's pretty old and can be set to either 12 or 24 hours. Annoyingly,
> my new microwave oven only has a 12 clock, and my radio alarm shows
> am/pm by a dash that is high or low, but I can never work out which
> position is which, which is another reason for my hating daylight
> saving.
You can use the radio in whichever fashion you like. I'd would use the high
position for the early day, but you might like it the other way. Do what
comes natural for you.
--
Skitt
geo...@ankerstein.org
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 05:23:29 GMT, use...@mantra.com and/orwww.mantra.com/jai(Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
>
> > In article <1184108545.520025.190...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
> > jenn...@mailinator.com posted:
>
> > > When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
>
> > > I was surprised some people think it means * when I'd assume anyone
> > > meant * if they said 12:00pm.
>
> > > * = noon/midnight
> > > . . .
>
> > I try to write 12 noon and 12 midnight instead
> > of 12:00, to which "am" or "pm" really do not apply
> > since 12 on the mark is neither "ante" nor "post".
>
> That is correct.
>
> If I hear 12:00 p.m., I assume 12 noon, since 12:00 seems more closely
> tied to 12:01 than to 11:59. However, I have seen signs where "12:00
> p.m." was apparently intended to be midnight; for example, a
> restaurant's sign saying that it is open from "10 a.m. to 12 p.m."
> It's better to use the correct "noon" and "midnight" to avoid
> confusion.
The old "bimonthly" problem. Definitions: "1). occurring every two
months";
"2). occurring twice a month". Merriam Webster. They kindly note
that the
word may be used as a noun, adjective, or adverb.
GFH
Purl Gurl
I am reading this entire thread with interest. What interests me
the most is we do not have a single clock in our home, none, not
our vcr, not our microwave, not our oven, not even a waterproof
clock in our shower. Not a single clock to be found.
Only clock we can claim is in the lower right hand corner of my
computer screen and this one is an atomic synched clock with a
digital seconds display. I use this solely as a timer to place
my Ebay bids within the last ten seconds of an auction.
Must be an Indian thing.
--
Purl Gurl
--
So many are stumped by what slips right off the top of my mind
like a man's bad fitting hairpiece.
Skitt
> I am reading this entire thread with interest. What interests me
> the most is we do not have a single clock in our home, none, not
> our vcr, not our microwave, not our oven, not even a waterproof
> clock in our shower. Not a single clock to be found.
>
> Only clock we can claim is in the lower right hand corner of my
> computer screen and this one is an atomic synched clock with a
> digital seconds display. I use this solely as a timer to place
> my Ebay bids within the last ten seconds of an auction.
>
> Must be an Indian thing.
Wild! There are six timepieces in the room where I am right now. Sure, one
is the computer clock you mention, but then there's a wall clock, a
clock-in-a-box Lockheed gave me for 30 years of service, the clock on the TV
cable box, the clock in my digital camera, and a radio-controlled wristwatch
that I seldom wear.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are more than 25 timepieces in our house
and cars.
Let's see, two in cars, one controlling the sprinklers, another for the
thermostat, two in older TVs, one on the kitchen range, on the microwave,
two clock radios, a little crystal clock, a big kitchen wall clock, a small
radio-controlled kitchen clock, two telephones with internal clocks, two
cell-phones with internal clocks, another cable TV box clock, a big
radio-controlled bedroom clock, and at least five more wristwatches. That's
thirty time-keeping devices. Oo, oo, I forgot the other digital camera.
That's thirty one. There's probably some more I forgot (I don't really know
how many watches my wife has, and my S-I-L surely has some too). Oh, and
then there's the laptop.
Soon there will be another timepiece when the GPS Navigation unit we bought
arrives.
This is crazy, but everything comes with a built-in clock nowadays.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
Evan Kirshenbaum
> I am reading this entire thread with interest. What interests me the
> most is we do not have a single clock in our home, none, not our
> vcr, not our microwave, not our oven, not even a waterproof clock in
> our shower. Not a single clock to be found.
That's impressive. (Seriously.) Did you have to search out a VCR
that didn't have one? I don't think I've seen one in, well, forever.
I guess it doesn't count as "in your home", but you've indicated that
you own cars and/or trucks, and again they've been standard there
since probably at least the '50s.
> Only clock we can claim is in the lower right hand corner of my
> computer screen and this one is an atomic synched clock with a
> digital seconds display. I use this solely as a timer to place
> my Ebay bids within the last ten seconds of an auction.
Do you own a cell phone? If so, it will certainly have a clock.
There are, of course, probably other things that have internal clocks
(e.g., digital cameras, cable/DSL modems, set-top boxes, routers,
sprinkler controller, high-end thermostat, burglar alarm -- making
some guesses as to devices that may or may not be in your house), but
they aren't pushy about letting you know what time they think it is.
> Must be an Indian thing.
Could well be. There are at least nine devices in my house that were
purchased primarily to be clocks (including alarm clocks), not
counting probably half a dozen watches between the three of us.
There's another half dozen or so that are primarily something else
(telephone, thermostat, thermometer, sprinkler controller, stove,
microwave oven, VCR, ...) but which have clock displays that face out
into their room. Plus devices that display clocks when used (cell
phones, computers, TiVo), and God knows how many that have clocks that
can be accessed (iPod, cameras) or are purely internal (router/WAP,
DSL modem).
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A little government and a little luck
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |are necessary in life, but only a
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fool trusts either of them.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Richard Bollard
wrote:
Oy! Whaddabout your camera? That'd have one.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Purl Gurl
> Purl Gurl wrote:
Ok, Evan, I will give this a try. I like discussion.
I do not like contests. I enjoy reading viewpoints
of others. I do not like having viewpoints of others
imposed upon me. I especially do not like having people
lecture me on my Choctaw culture.
>> I am reading this entire thread with interest. What interests me the
>> most is we do not have a single clock in our home, none, not our
>> vcr, not our microwave, not our oven, not even a waterproof clock in
>> our shower. Not a single clock to be found.
> That's impressive. (Seriously.) Did you have to search out a VCR
> that didn't have one? I don't think I've seen one in, well, forever.
> I guess it doesn't count as "in your home", but you've indicated that
> you own cars and/or trucks, and again they've been standard there
> since probably at least the '50s.
We have a VCR, stashed away in a closet. Might have a clock, probably
does have a clock. I cannot remember. We would not pay any mind to
a clock on a VCR, mostly likely this clock would spend all its time
simply blinking.
My Corvette has an analog clock, digital based but analog display
like original decades back. Keeps good time but I rarely look at
this clock. My 'Vette clock is there for show not use.
We have '52 and '56 Chevy trucks, neither have clocks.
VCR, car radio, Corvette clock, whatever, we are truly a clockless
family, just like Las Vegas.
Here is the deal, Evan. As farmers in our early days, and my being
Choctaw, we simply never had clocks. No clocks in our farm house.
Our day begin just before sunrise and our "work" day ends at sunset.
We go to bed according to how tired we are or for other reasons.
Our days and nights simply revolve around sun or no sun. Outside
work is performed when light out, eating and sleep, when not. Ask
any in our family for the time, we can tell you within fifteen minutes
or so, the actual time. I set my internal clock by position of the
sun. I know when noon comes around simply by the sun being directly
overhead, just as I know the time at sunrise and sunset. This is
not looking at a clock and looking at the sun, this is simply decades
of living without any clocks.
We are both raised to schedule our days according to sunrise and
sunset, along with directly overhead sun to signal time to stop
and eat dinner, your lunch time.
Of course there were times in our past when we needed to pay attention
to time, such as working as a waitress or working in a factory. Still,
we did not use clocks for this, maybe for a few days at first so we
could adjust to sun position and work time. All of us have a habit
of showing up early for work and leaving late. This is a a matter of
pride about putting in an honest day's work. Since retirement, we have
zero need for any clocks.
> Do you own a cell phone?
No, never have and never will. We view cell phones as a waste
of money and a type of enslavement. Cell phones take over the
lives of people. A majority of cell phone users are slaves to
their phones. Their lives are dictated by cell phones.
I am very serious about this enslavement notion.
We have half century old rotary phones in our home, save for
one phone to take care of touch tone needs.
No clocks of any sort. I know our sprinkler timers have clocks.
However, we set those according to intervals. We want our water
to turn on every twelve hours. Works out our sprinklers come
on late night and early morning. My husband tends to timing.
Doubtful clocks on those timers are even close to accurate.
I know he sets time according to sunset not according to time.
The time might read twelve noon at sunset. This does not matter.
The sprinklers are to turn on six hours after sunset and around
sunrise the next day.
>> Must be an Indian thing.
> Could well be. There are at least nine devices in my house that were
> microwave oven, VCR, ...) but which have clock displays that face out
Our microwave is an old Amana. Cooking time is set by a
twist knob ranging from one minute to ten minutes. Our
stove is a Forties stainless steel also equipped with a
twist dial timer, I think up to one hour. Both "ding"
when time is up.
In our lives, grandpa and grandma taught us you begin work
at sunrise and end work at sunset. You have supper, you bath,
you go to bed. That simple.
My Choctaw elders taught me the only time of importance is
right now. The past is gone, tomorrow never arrives. Only
what you are doing right now is of importance. Every moment
of "right now" is to be spent being productive. Of course,
we pay attention to seasons and there are only two seasons
in our culture, summer and winter. Summer is planting, tending
and harvesting. Winter is simply surviving and tending to animals.
Either we are growing food or we are sheltered for winter.
Nothing else matters.
Our language reflects this. We always speak in present tense,
have no real future references and the past is either minutes
and hours back, or hundreds of years back, literally. Of course
this is a traditional way of life and, today, this does not apply
to modernized Choctaws. We, in our family, remain traditional.
You must know there were times in our lives we had to allow
clocks to intrude, going to work, getting the girl off to
school, keeping appointments, all those things all enjoy.
However, the past ten or so years, literally no clocks,
least since 1993 or 1994 when we retired.
Never any cell phones, though. Cell phones are pure evil.
Purl Gurl
> Purl Gurl wrote:
>> Skitt wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
(snipped)
>> clock in our shower. Not a single clock to be found.
>> Only clock we can claim is in the lower right hand corner of my
>> computer screen and this one is an atomic synched clock with a
> Oy! Whaddabout your camera? That'd have one.
If your comment was not so childishly inane,
I would engage you in dialog. Unfortunate you
elect to behave so childishly; you miss out on
what would prove to be enjoyable discussion.
tony cooper
<rich...@spamt.edu.au> wrote:
>>Only clock we can claim is in the lower right hand corner of my
>>computer screen and this one is an atomic synched clock with a
>>digital seconds display. I use this solely as a timer to place
>>my Ebay bids within the last ten seconds of an auction.
>>
>>Must be an Indian thing.
>>
>Oy! Whaddabout your camera? That'd have one.
And her, and her husband's, cell phone. I doubt if they contact each
other by smoke signs.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Hatunen
wrote:
Which resulted in the term "meridian" for lines of longitude
John Swindle
>On Jul 12, 8:21 pm, Bill McCray <McCrayB...@SpringMind.com> wrote:
>> . . .
>>
>> If I hear 12:00 p.m., I assume 12 noon, since 12:00 seems more closely
>> tied to 12:01 than to 11:59. However, I have seen signs where "12:00
>> p.m." was apparently intended to be midnight; for example, a
>> restaurant's sign saying that it is open from "10 a.m. to 12 p.m."
>> It's better to use the correct "noon" and "midnight" to avoid
>> confusion.
>
>The old "bimonthly" problem. Definitions: "1). occurring every two
>months";
> "2). occurring twice a month". Merriam Webster. They kindly note
>that the
>word may be used as a noun, adjective, or adverb.
>
But only bimonthly, at 12:00 pm.
Mike Lyle
[...]
> If I hear 12:00 p.m., I assume 12 noon, since 12:00 seems more closely
> tied to 12:01 than to 11:59. However, I have seen signs where "12:00
> p.m." was apparently intended to be midnight; for example, a
> restaurant's sign saying that it is open from "10 a.m. to 12 p.m."
> It's better to use the correct "noon" and "midnight" to avoid
> confusion.
Yesterday I said I'd experiment with the clock on my Nokia 'phone. Not
caring to fiddle around, I used the alarm feature. It thinks midnight is
"12.00 a.m." and midday is "p.m." Now back to 24-hour clock, with
relief.
--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Peter Moylan
> You will occasionally come across someone considered technologically
> inept being noted as having a VCR that's "blinking 12 o'clock". For
> most VCRs, the display will blink "12:00" ("a.m." if it displays it)
> until the clock is set. So someone whose VCR is still blinking twelve
> o'clock is someone who's never figured out how to set its clock. I
> assume that in other countries it blinks ... what? zero o'clock?
> zero hundred?
00:00
Except, of course, when daylight saving time starts. Then it blinks 01:00.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter Moylan
Almost certainly this is because the clock was designed by someone used
to 12-hour clocks, but was told to do a 24-hour clock this time. I know
this because I used to teach a first-year digital logic subject, and a
common laboratory exercise was to design a digital clock. When students
were asked to put in an option to switch between the 12-hour and 24-hour
displays, the results were highly variable.
Most people would say that the only differences between a 12-hour clock
and a 24-hour clock is the am/pm indicator and the hour at which the
count wraps around. That's because most people have never had the need
to think deeply about the matter. In fact, there's a more fundamental
difference: 12-hour clocks are for people who start counting at 1, while
24-hour clocks are for people who start counting at zero. Or, to put it
a different way, one goes from 1 to 12, while the other goes from 0 to
23. If you're forced to change conventions, that's the point where
confusion arises.
Peter Moylan
Here I find myself agreeing with Purl Gurl. It is possible, and even
desirable, to live a full and happy life without ever touching a
portable telephone.
I have one, but only because I inherited it from my children. Its main
use is to ring at me while I'm driving the car in heavy traffic. I'm so
enslaved by the habit of answering the phone that I often (illegally)
answer it and say "wait a minute until I find a place to stop the car".
We're all enslaved by our response to a ringing phone. If a telemarketer
walked into your home while you were eating dinner, you'd tell him to
piss off. If instead he calls your phone number, you illogically answer
it instead of ignoring the ringing.
The law in NSW has just changed to make it illegal for a probationary
driver (one who's held a driving licence for under three years) to carry
a mobile phone. Not just to answer it - that's illegal for everyone -
but to carry it. Even if it's switched off. That's a sensible move, in
my opinion. I only wish they'd extend the law to the pajeros who drive
suburban assault vehicles.
the Omrud
> tony cooper wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:54:11 +1000, Richard Bollard
> > <rich...@spamt.edu.au> wrote:
>
> >> Oy! Whaddabout your camera? That'd have one.
> >
> > And her, and her husband's, cell phone. I doubt if they contact each
> > other by smoke signs.
>
> Here I find myself agreeing with Purl Gurl. It is possible, and even
> desirable, to live a full and happy life without ever touching a
> portable telephone.
My mobile enables me to live a full and happy life, considering that
I have to work for a living. I am always available, but nobody takes
any notice of where I am.
> I have one, but only because I inherited it from my children. Its main
> use is to ring at me while I'm driving the car in heavy traffic. I'm so
> enslaved by the habit of answering the phone that I often (illegally)
> answer it and say "wait a minute until I find a place to stop the car".
> We're all enslaved by our response to a ringing phone. If a telemarketer
> walked into your home while you were eating dinner, you'd tell him to
> piss off. If instead he calls your phone number, you illogically answer
> it instead of ignoring the ringing.
That's just a matter of training. If I don't want to answer my
phone, I let it ring and eventually it takes a message. If I'm in
two minds, I look to see who's calling before deciding.
> The law in NSW has just changed to make it illegal for a probationary
> driver (one who's held a driving licence for under three years) to carry
> a mobile phone. Not just to answer it - that's illegal for everyone -
> but to carry it. Even if it's switched off. That's a sensible move, in
> my opinion. I only wish they'd extend the law to the pajeros who drive
> suburban assault vehicles.
Bit harsh on those who need to call the Australian AA.
--
David
=====
Peter Duncanson
That makes sense. Interesting.
tony cooper
<pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> wrote:
>tony cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:54:11 +1000, Richard Bollard
>> <rich...@spamt.edu.au> wrote:
>
>>> Oy! Whaddabout your camera? That'd have one.
>>
>> And her, and her husband's, cell phone. I doubt if they contact each
>> other by smoke signs.
>
>Here I find myself agreeing with Purl Gurl. It is possible, and even
>desirable, to live a full and happy life without ever touching a
>portable telephone.
We don't know if Purl Gurl has, or does not have, a cell phone. We
only know that she claims not to have a clock except for the display
on her computer. Based on some of Purl Gurl's other statements, are
you willing to assume that a) she counts a cell phone as a clock since
there is no Choctaw word for "cell phone", and/or b) that's she's
being truthful in her statement?
the Omrud
Mike Lyle
> pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org had it ...
[...]
>> The law in NSW has just changed to make it illegal for a probationary
>> driver (one who's held a driving licence for under three years) to
>> carry a mobile phone. Not just to answer it - that's illegal for
>> everyone - but to carry it. Even if it's switched off. That's a
>> sensible move, in my opinion. I only wish they'd extend the law to
>> the pajeros who drive suburban assault vehicles.
>
> Bit harsh on those who need to call the Australian AA.
I applaud the intention, but the execution worries me. Can I assume
these drivers are allowed to have their 'phones in their luggage, or the
"glove" compartment? If not, I think it's a bit of OzFash.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>> You will occasionally come across someone considered
>> technologically inept being noted as having a VCR that's "blinking
>> 12 o'clock". For most VCRs, the display will blink "12:00" ("a.m."
>> if it displays it) until the clock is set. So someone whose VCR is
>> still blinking twelve o'clock is someone who's never figured out
>> how to set its clock. I assume that in other countries it blinks
>> ... what? zero o'clock? zero hundred?
>
> 00:00
>
> Except, of course, when daylight saving time starts. Then it blinks
> 01:00.
The question was how you pronounce it. I suspect that it's not "zero
zero colon zero zero".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |This gubblick contains many
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the overall pluggandisp can be
|glorked from context.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |
(650)857-7572 | David Moser
Purl Gurl
> Purl Gurl wrote:
>> I am reading this entire thread with interest. What interests me
>> the most is we do not have a single clock in our home, none, not
>> our vcr, not our microwave, not our oven, not even a waterproof
>> clock in our shower. Not a single clock to be found.
> Wild! There are six timepieces in the room where I am right now. Sure,
[...]
> This is crazy, but everything comes with a built-in clock nowadays.
This comment of yours woke me up a bit. I have been counting
inventory of "things" we have. Our stereo system is very old,
dates back the late Seventies and early Eighties, pre-digital.
We even have four turntables. No clock. Microwave, oven, fridge,
all date way back. No clocks. No cable television, so no clock
there. I do recall now our VCR has a clock and will automatically
synchronize to an atomic clock broadcast signal. Our Mercedes
has a clock. My Corvette has a clock. Oddly, both display correct
time; we are keeping them set although I do not remember doing this.
Our VCR is parked in a bedroom closet.
Our new camera has a clock but I have not yet accessed its clock.
I do not have a clue what time my camera will display.
No cell phones. I intend to address this elsewhere.
None of us wear a wristwatch.
We do have a centuries old gold pocket watch on display under
glass on our fireplace mantle. I think the last time that gold
pocket watch ticked was in 1893 year.
Our home is truly like Las Vegas; you will not find a clock
anywhere, except...
There is a clock I overlooked. Out near one of our sundecks,
there is an antique brass sun dial mounted on polished granite.
Keeps time very accurately! Never needs setting! We do not think
to adjust the sun dial for Daylight Savings and all that. Of
interest, we look at this sun dial and admire its beauty but
never look to discover the time displayed!
I am not completely unfamiliar with clocks. I recall a lesson
plan of mine for younger kids. We made sundials using ordinary
ditto paper, scissors, scotch tape and penciled markings. I
think, though, my kids enjoyed more going outside under our
warm sun to goof-off rather than to build sundials.
Steve MacGregor
> Most people would say that the only differences between a 12-hour clock
> and a 24-hour clock is the am/pm indicator and the hour at which the
> count wraps around. That's because most people have never had the need
> to think deeply about the matter. In fact, there's a more fundamental
> difference: 12-hour clocks are for people who start counting at 1, while
> 24-hour clocks are for people who start counting at zero. Or, to put it
> a different way, one goes from 1 to 12, while the other goes from 0 to
> 23.
Worse yet, the 12-hour clock does *not* go from one to twelve twice in
a day. It goes twelve, one to twelve, and one to eleven, with the am/
pm indicator added on for additional confusion. Observe how many
people here can't figure out which one noon is.
--
Stefano
"A balanced diet is essential: too much soda-pop and not enough candy
bars will KILL YOU DEAD!"
Hatunen
Ultimately, the real question is: If you tell the gorgeous young
lady you will pick her up at the club at 12pm, will she know when
to be there?
Hatunen
<esper...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Peter Moylan skribis:
>
>> Most people would say that the only differences between a 12-hour clock
>> and a 24-hour clock is the am/pm indicator and the hour at which the
>> count wraps around. That's because most people have never had the need
>> to think deeply about the matter. In fact, there's a more fundamental
>> difference: 12-hour clocks are for people who start counting at 1, while
>> 24-hour clocks are for people who start counting at zero. Or, to put it
>> a different way, one goes from 1 to 12, while the other goes from 0 to
>> 23.
>
>Worse yet, the 12-hour clock does *not* go from one to twelve twice in
>a day. It goes twelve, one to twelve, and one to eleven, with the am/
>pm indicator added on for additional confusion. Observe how many
>people here can't figure out which one noon is.
Not all 12-hour clocks have an am/pm indicator, not even all
digital clocks. I've seen digital clocks with no such indicator,
as their principle raison d'etre is to make an alarm work
correctly. If the clock isn't an alarm clock the am/pm indicator
is unnecessary.
Skitt
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> Do you own a cell phone?
>
> No, never have and never will. We view cell phones as a waste
> of money and a type of enslavement. Cell phones take over the
> lives of people. A majority of cell phone users are slaves to
> their phones. Their lives are dictated by cell phones.
>
> I am very serious about this enslavement notion.
So am I. The two cell phones I mentioned in another post belong to the
women in our house. There's no way that I would carry one.
Skitt
> Not all 12-hour clocks have an am/pm indicator, not even all
> digital clocks. I've seen digital clocks with no such indicator,
> as their principle raison d'etre is to make an alarm work
<sigh>
> correctly. If the clock isn't an alarm clock the am/pm indicator
> is unnecessary.
--
R H Draney
>
>Ultimately, the real question is: If you tell the gorgeous young
>lady you will pick her up at the club at 12pm, will she know when
>to be there?
Probably not, but since she's gorgeous, we'll cut her some slack....r
--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"
R H Draney
>
>Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> writes:
>
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
>>> You will occasionally come across someone considered
>>> technologically inept being noted as having a VCR that's "blinking
>>> 12 o'clock". For most VCRs, the display will blink "12:00" ("a.m."
>>> if it displays it) until the clock is set. So someone whose VCR is
>>> still blinking twelve o'clock is someone who's never figured out
>>> how to set its clock. I assume that in other countries it blinks
>>> ... what? zero o'clock? zero hundred?
>>
>> 00:00
>>
>> Except, of course, when daylight saving time starts. Then it blinks
>> 01:00.
>
>The question was how you pronounce it. I suspect that it's not "zero
>zero colon zero zero".
/'?u:?u:/
Peter Moylan
> Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> writes:
>
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
>>> You will occasionally come across someone considered
>>> technologically inept being noted as having a VCR that's
>>> "blinking 12 o'clock". For most VCRs, the display will blink
>>> "12:00" ("a.m." if it displays it) until the clock is set. So
>>> someone whose VCR is still blinking twelve o'clock is someone
>>> who's never figured out how to set its clock. I assume that in
>>> other countries it blinks ... what? zero o'clock? zero hundred?
>>>
>> 00:00
>>
>> Except, of course, when daylight saving time starts. Then it blinks
>> 01:00.
>
> The question was how you pronounce it. I suspect that it's not "zero
> zero colon zero zero".
>
but for me it would be "zero oh oh". (Just as 0:15 would be "zero
fifteen".) I've also heard "zero hours" and "zero o'clock".
Peter Moylan
> pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org had it ...
>> The law in NSW has just changed to make it illegal for a
>> probationary driver (one who's held a driving licence for under
>> three years) to carry a mobile phone. Not just to answer it -
>> that's illegal for everyone - but to carry it. Even if it's
>> switched off. That's a sensible move, in my opinion. I only wish
>> they'd extend the law to the pajeros who drive suburban assault
>> vehicles.
>
> Bit harsh on those who need to call the Australian AA.
I haven't checked the wording of the law, but I imagine that it's legal
to have a mobile phone somewhere in the car, as long as it's out of
reach of the driver.
Mike Barnes
>Peter Moylan <pe...@DIESPAMMERSDIEpmoylan.org> writes:
>
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
>>> You will occasionally come across someone considered
>>> technologically inept being noted as having a VCR that's "blinking
>>> 12 o'clock". For most VCRs, the display will blink "12:00" ("a.m."
>>> if it displays it) until the clock is set. So someone whose VCR is
>>> still blinking twelve o'clock is someone who's never figured out
>>> how to set its clock. I assume that in other countries it blinks
>>> ... what? zero o'clock? zero hundred?
>>
>> 00:00
>>
>> Except, of course, when daylight saving time starts. Then it blinks
>> 01:00.
>
>The question was how you pronounce it. I suspect that it's not "zero
>zero colon zero zero".
Oh, I see.
I've not come across this particular piece of imagery, but I'd
translate it into British English as "a video with a blinking clock". It
is of no importance exactly what characters are blinking, but if for
some reason I wanted to specify them, I would indeed say "zero zero
colon zero zero".
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Purl Gurl
We have three phones. Two are rotary and one is touch tone.
One fifty year old rotary phone in our kitchen, far away from
our bedrooms and living room. One equally old rotary phone
in our shop, far down our hillside. Our touch tone is only
plugged in when we need to use menu selection touch tones.
We keep our touch tone stored in a kitchen cabinet.
We have mixed feelings about this. Although none of us have
cell phones, never have, there was a time we debated if we
should acquire a cell phone for our girl as a matter of safety.
We decided, "No, we survived without a cell phone, she can as well."
However, we make sure she always has a small package of quarters
in her Corvette should she need to make an emergency type call,
like flat tire or out of gas.
During our consideration of her safety when she started driving,
is both a Triple A roadside service card and a cell phone. We
dismissed this. A roadside service card and a phone will prompt
her to sit in her car and wait for a tow truck. This is the most
dangerous action a woman can take, when her car breaks down.
Our reckoning is if her car breaks down somewhere, we much rather
she get out of her car, lock it up, then walk to a highly populated
area, like a gas station or other, to use a pay phone. We want her
off a freeway or off a busy street. We do not want her to sit there
and be an attractive target for criminal types. There is, of course,
risk in her having to walk somewhere. She is trained, though, if a
car pulls over near her, she is to instantly start running in whatever
direction takes her away from this car, even if she has to climb over
bushes or a fence. She understands the importance of this. She also
understands criminal types are highly unlikely to give foot chase.
We do not care in the least bit if her abandoned car becomes wrecked,
vandalized, towed away or stolen. We can easily replace her Corvette,
she can never be replaced. Our feelings are a person, especially a
woman, sitting alone in a car alongside a road is a highly attractive
target for criminals. She is instructed to get away from her car
as quickly as possible, and move off the road quickly, even climb
over a fence or whatever to make distance between her and a road.
On cell phone enslavement, Skitt, I know you have seen these really
hip boys, and some older men, walking around with a cell phone shoved
in their ears. This is abhorrent! Looks really silly, as well.
These are people, both men and women, who are totally enslaved by their
cell phones. These people have their brains directly plugged into a
cell phone and their cell phones dictate their day-to-day lives. I mean
these are people who cannot set the course of their lives. All they do
is totally controlled by a voice being pumped into their ears.
We think of those people as Borg. Those people do not have a mind of
their own. Those people have plugged their brains into a vast network
and live accordingly. They are Borg.
Here I am at Victoria's Secret looking at crotchless panties and edible
panties. I am planning to seduce my husband, as a good wife should. I
am thinking, will he enjoy cherry flavored edibles or blackberry edibles?
I am also thinking I should buy matching flavor douche and perfume. Not
a chance I will allow some voice in my ear to instruct me to come down
to our bank to sign some papers. I am planning to screw my husband silly
and do not want to be interrupted by some secretary wanting me to report
to our bank as ordered, by a voice in my ear. No chance. My husband always
comes first, no pun intended and that is not our order of preference, well,
so, my husband is first in all things, well, he is next in line of importance
after our girl, just as I am.
Cell phones enslave people. You cannot have a cell phone and enjoy skinny
dipping nor sipping champagne and nibbling strawberries poolside. My husband
cannot have a cell phone and enjoy his quiet time down in our shop while
working on his old '56 Chevy pickup truck. Our girl cannot lie in bed and
enjoy a good read, while her cell phone rings and interrupts her fanciful
story book life in some far away galaxy.
Cell phones rob us of our privacy and rob us of our lives. Cell phones
are modern day slave masters. Cell phones are Borg.
Christian Weisgerber
> You will occasionally come across someone considered technologically
> inept being noted as having a VCR that's "blinking 12 o'clock". For
> most VCRs, the display will blink "12:00" ("a.m." if it displays it)
> until the clock is set. So someone whose VCR is still blinking twelve
> o'clock is someone who's never figured out how to set its clock.
I don't own a VCR (aren't these historic by now?) or PVR, but I
thought they automatically retrieved the time nowadays--I'm not
sure where from, maybe from teletext, so this could be a European
thing, I suppose.
Certainly the trend over the last fifteen years has been that devices
attached to some sort of network fetch the time from there.
* My old ISDN phone gets the time at the end of outgoing calls; it
doesn't even provide for a way to set it manually.
* My car radio picks up the time via RDS, although not all stations
seem to provide that information.
* My cell phone also has an option to automatically retrieve the
date and time from the cellular network. Funnily enough this
doesn't work here with Vodafone, but when I travel to Canada the
phone immediately picks up the time from the Rogers network there.
In fact--lemme check--it's still on Calgary time.
And of course many standalone clocks, radio alarm clocks, and the
like are radio-controlled (DCF77 in this part of the world).
> I assume that in other countries it blinks ... what? zero o'clock?
> zero hundred?
My microwave blinks 0:00, or maybe 00:00, but conveniently offers
the option to shut off the clock display completely.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Oleg Lego
>Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
>> You will occasionally come across someone considered technologically
>> inept being noted as having a VCR that's "blinking 12 o'clock". For
>> most VCRs, the display will blink "12:00" ("a.m." if it displays it)
>> until the clock is set. So someone whose VCR is still blinking twelve
>> o'clock is someone who's never figured out how to set its clock.
>
>I don't own a VCR (aren't these historic by now?) or PVR, but I
>thought they automatically retrieved the time nowadays--I'm not
>sure where from, maybe from teletext, so this could be a European
>thing, I suppose.
Some stations broadcast the time, and if your VCR has the feature, and
is receiving one of those stations, then yes. There are a few IFs
there, though.
>* My cell phone also has an option to automatically retrieve the
> date and time from the cellular network. Funnily enough this
> doesn't work here with Vodafone, but when I travel to Canada the
> phone immediately picks up the time from the Rogers network there.
> In fact--lemme check--it's still on Calgary time.
I had that enabled in my Rogers cell phone, but turned it off when it
kept changing the time such that it was off by an hour. Saskatchewan
does not change between Standard and Daylight time, so I think it may
have to do with that.
>And of course many standalone clocks, radio alarm clocks, and the
>like are radio-controlled (DCF77 in this part of the world).
I currently have two "atomic clocks" in the house; one of which is
quite small so I can take it out to my telescope during observing
sessions. Accurate time is great to have for astronomy.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> So am I. The two cell phones I mentioned in another post belong to
> the women in our house. There's no way that I would carry one.
I started carrying one a couple of years ago. Very few people know
the number, and it rings maybe once every week or two. It's primary
purposes are (1) for me to be able to call Susan from stores to
clarify just what I should be buying, (2) for her to be able to get in
touch with me when I'm in a meeting, (3) for us to be able to find one
another when meeting somewhere, and (4) for me to be able to call AAA
if my car breaks down. As such, it's a net stress reducer.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |When correctly viewed,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | Everything is lewd.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |I could tell you things
| about Peter Pan,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |and the Wizard of Oz--
(650)857-7572 | there's a dirty old man!
| Tom Lehrer
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Eric Schwartz
> No, never have and never will. We view cell phones as a waste
> of money and a type of enslavement. Cell phones take over the
> lives of people. A majority of cell phone users are slaves to
> their phones. Their lives are dictated by cell phones.
The only reason I got one is because a couple of years ago, I was
driving home from the airport after a Thanksgiving vacation, and was
caught in a blizzard so nasty, I wasn't sure I could make it home. In
this sort of situation in years past, people who had cell phones could
call emergency services crews, who would come and dig them out.
People who didn't generally died.
Since then, it's come in handy for a variety of reasons-- my whole
family is on the same carrier, so we can call each other for free, and
the fact that it's actually easier to ignore a cell phone than a
landline: if I touch any button on my cell phone while it's ringing,
the ringing stops, and the caller goes straight to voicemail. The
landline just rings until the answering machine picks up, which can be
an annoyingly long time.
-=Eric
Frances Kemmish
> Since then, it's come in handy for a variety of reasons-- my whole
> family is on the same carrier, so we can call each other for free, and
> the fact that it's actually easier to ignore a cell phone than a
> landline: if I touch any button on my cell phone while it's ringing,
> the ringing stops, and the caller goes straight to voicemail. The
> landline just rings until the answering machine picks up, which can be
> an annoyingly long time.
>
These days, a cellphone is the only phone that many people have. Our
daughter has no landline at her apartment in Washington DC; nor do most
of her friends. We have no landline at our apartment in New York city;
nor do many of our friends there.
Fran
Skitt
> "Skitt" writes:
>> So am I. The two cell phones I mentioned in another post belong to
>> the women in our house. There's no way that I would carry one.
>
> I started carrying one a couple of years ago. Very few people know
> the number, and it rings maybe once every week or two. It's primary
> purposes are (1) for me to be able to call Susan from stores to
> clarify just what I should be buying,
I don't shop for my wife.
> (2) for her to be able to get in touch with me when
> I'm in a meeting,
Why? Is that really necessary? Can't she manage without that? I hated
being interrupted at work.
> (3) for us to be able to find one another when meeting somewhere,
Ah, to overcome planning shortcomings.
> and (4) for me to be able to call AAA if my car breaks down.
Has that ever happened? OK, for me there was that one time back in 1999,
when I had to walk a mile from a freeway to a gas station. Other than that,
those needs happened way before there were mobile phones -- back in my youth
when I was driving clunkers. I couldn't afford AAA then, anyway.
> As such, it's a net stress reducer.
Only if you stress out about not having a cell phone. I don't. Sure, there
are a few times when having one could have been handy, but those are far
outweighed by the peace and quiet I enjoy the rest of the time. I was
successful in avoiding the carrying of pagers at work also. Instant
communication is not a necessity -- only a convenience for some at the
expense of inconvenience for others.
--
Skitt
Hatunen
In countries where landlines are expensive or take forever to
order and receive, they are being shed in favor of cells right
and left. Several of my cousins in Finland now have cells (or
"mobiles") only, some of them never having a landline and some of
them dropping landlines they had.
Frances Kemmish
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:37:12 -0400, Frances Kemmish
> <fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Eric Schwartz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Since then, it's come in handy for a variety of reasons-- my whole
>>>family is on the same carrier, so we can call each other for free, and
>>>the fact that it's actually easier to ignore a cell phone than a
>>>landline: if I touch any button on my cell phone while it's ringing,
>>>the ringing stops, and the caller goes straight to voicemail. The
>>>landline just rings until the answering machine picks up, which can be
>>>an annoyingly long time.
>>>
>>
>>These days, a cellphone is the only phone that many people have. Our
>>daughter has no landline at her apartment in Washington DC; nor do most
>>of her friends. We have no landline at our apartment in New York city;
>>nor do many of our friends there.
>
>
> In countries where landlines are expensive or take forever to
> order and receive, they are being shed in favor of cells right
> and left. Several of my cousins in Finland now have cells (or
> "mobiles") only, some of them never having a landline and some of
> them dropping landlines they had.
>
When our daughter moved into an apartment, we insisted she have a
landline, thinking it would be necessary in emergencies, and would be a
fixed point where we could contact her. We also thought it would be
helpful for her to have a local telephone number - her mobile phone has
a Connecticut number. She had perhaps three calls on that number in the
year we paid for it. We, of course, never called her on it, as her
cellphone number was local for us in Connecticut.
Once she started paying her own way (mostly), she gave up the phone line.
Fran
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> "Skitt" writes:
>
>>> So am I. The two cell phones I mentioned in another post belong
>>> to the women in our house. There's no way that I would carry one.
>>
>> I started carrying one a couple of years ago. Very few people know
>> the number, and it rings maybe once every week or two. It's
>> primary purposes are (1) for me to be able to call Susan from
>> stores to clarify just what I should be buying,
>
> I don't shop for my wife.
Neither do I, usually. I do, however, shop for our household from
time to time or stop on my way home to pick up something for dinner.
I personally find it very stressful to realize that there are two or
three things that fit my apparently sketchy memory of what we need (or
that they're out of the thing I was going to pick up and I'm unsure of
what would be a reasonable substitute), and I tend to stand there
dithering for a while. It's a lot easier to just call and ask. Which
might involve her, say, going to a fixture to check the type of bulb
we need. Or giving me her second choice for a sandwich since they're
out of her first. Or telling me whether a particular size will be too
small for Josh.
>> (2) for her to be able to get in touch with me when I'm in a
>> meeting,
>
> Why? Is that really necessary? Can't she manage without that? I
> hated being interrupted at work.
I do, too. I also hate finding out later that there was an emergency
that she needed my help with, but she couldn't get hold of me. Or
rearranging my schedule to make sure to be by my office phone for a
call that I'm expecting some time over the next few hours. I can be
pretty sure that if she calls my cell phone when I'm in a meeting,
it's a call that I want to take now.
>> (3) for us to be able to find one another when meeting somewhere,
>
> Ah, to overcome planning shortcomings.
Not at all. Without a means of communication, you're forced to say
something like "I'll meet you by the clock tower when I get there,
which should be some time betwee two and four". Which means that one
party winds up staying close to the clock tower so that they can keep
checking back and the other party winds up waiting by the clock tower
when they get there. With cell phones, when you get to the venue, you
call and say "I'm here. Where are you?" It's much more efficient and
much less frustrating.
>> and (4) for me to be able to call AAA if my car breaks down.
>
> Has that ever happened? OK, for me there was that one time back in
> 1999, when I had to walk a mile from a freeway to a gas station.
> Other than that, those needs happened way before there were mobile
> phones -- back in my youth when I was driving clunkers. I couldn't
> afford AAA then, anyway.
I haven't actually needed to since I started carrying a cell phone,
but I did a few times in the few years before that. Two of the times
it happened I happened to be within a few blocks of an HP facility
(two different ones, not the one I work at) and I called from there.
>> As such, it's a net stress reducer.
>
> Only if you stress out about not having a cell phone.
But I don't stress out about not having a cell phone. I stress out
about having to make a decision with incomplete information when I
know that somebody could give me the information I need. I stress out
about modifying my life to be accessible for an important call that I
expect but whose time I don't know. I stress out about learning after
the fact that I was needed but couldn't help. I stress out about not
knowing where to find somebody I'm supposed to meet or about feeling
that I need to hang around waiting for them. And I stress out about
having to find a phone in an emergency. These don't happen all that
often, but they happen way more often than my getting interrupted by
Oh, one other. I'm a baseball coach. I've haven't had to dial 911
from a practice (we did have one kid who got a permanent tooth knocked
out, but his dad was there and took him to the dentist), but I have
had practices called on account of rain or (worse) its aftermath.
Cell phones are very useful tools for getting hold of parents and
telling them not to bother showing up or to come pick up their kids.
(Until I'm sure that everybody's gotten the message and until all of
the kids have been picked up, *I* get to sit out there in the rain.)
They're also useful for calling the league coordinator to try to find
out whether the ump is just late or whether a replacement has to be
called. Or to call the facilities people to tell them that somebody
broke the coupling for the hose and there's a twenty-foot jet of water
spraying up and they might want to come and turn it off before the
field completely floods.
> I don't. Sure, there are a few times when having one could have
> been handy, but those are far outweighed by the peace and quiet I
> enjoy the rest of the time.
I can probably count on one hand the number of times that my cell
phone has rung when it wasn't a call that I was glad I was able to
take. It's far more a tool for me to be able to call out when it
makes my life easier.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Giving money and power to government
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is like giving whiskey and car keys
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |to teenage boys.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
tony cooper
wrote:
>Our reckoning is if her car breaks down somewhere, we much rather
>she get out of her car, lock it up, then walk to a highly populated
>area, like a gas station or other, to use a pay phone. We want her
>off a freeway or off a busy street. We do not want her to sit there
>and be an attractive target for criminal types. There is, of course,
>risk in her having to walk somewhere.
> She is trained, though, if a
>car pulls over near her, she is to instantly start running in whatever
>direction takes her away from this car, even if she has to climb over
>bushes or a fence.
This is a girl who is over 16 years old who has been "trained" to take
a particular action when presented with a particular situation. No
instructed, not informed, not taught, but trained.
Was an electronic shock collar involved in the training? Treats?
>She understands the importance of this. She also
>understands criminal types are highly unlikely to give foot chase.
>
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
tony cooper
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>"Skitt" <ski...@comcast.net> writes:
>
>> So am I. The two cell phones I mentioned in another post belong to
>> the women in our house. There's no way that I would carry one.
>
>I started carrying one a couple of years ago. Very few people know
>the number, and it rings maybe once every week or two. It's primary
>purposes are (1) for me to be able to call Susan from stores to
>clarify just what I should be buying, (2) for her to be able to get in
>touch with me when I'm in a meeting, (3) for us to be able to find one
>another when meeting somewhere, and (4) for me to be able to call AAA
>if my car breaks down. As such, it's a net stress reducer.
Agreed, but in our case (1) includes instructions on where in the
store to find what I have been instructed to buy.
I also have a (5), which is to notified that I am needed to watch the
boys. I wouldn't want to miss that call if I'm working in the yard or
out on an errand.
tony cooper
<fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
My son just canceled his landline. When he switched from dial-up to
cable, there was no longer any need for a landline.
Robert Bannister
> I've not come across this particular piece of imagery, but I'd
> translate it into British English as "a video with a blinking clock". It
> is of no importance exactly what characters are blinking
Exactly. My VCR, with clock unset, displays an unblinking "Sharp" or
"Sharpe" (I don't read advertising).
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Only if you stress out about not having a cell phone. I don't. Sure,
> there are a few times when having one could have been handy, but those
> are far outweighed by the peace and quiet I enjoy the rest of the time.
> I was successful in avoiding the carrying of pagers at work also.
> Instant communication is not a necessity -- only a convenience for some
> at the expense of inconvenience for others.
I'm with you. I do actually have a mobile phone, but it has been
switched off for 3 years and I had the service discontinued when I
realised I almost never make phone calls. I only have a phone at all so
that other people can ring me, and that's annoying enough.
--
Rob Bannister
blm...@myrealbox.com
Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
[ snip ]
> But I don't stress out about not having a cell phone. I stress out
> about having to make a decision with incomplete information when I
> know that somebody could give me the information I need. I stress out
> about modifying my life to be accessible for an important call that I
> expect but whose time I don't know. I stress out about learning after
> the fact that I was needed but couldn't help. I stress out about not
> knowing where to find somebody I'm supposed to meet or about feeling
> that I need to hang around waiting for them. And I stress out about
> having to find a phone in an emergency. These don't happen all that
> often, but they happen way more often than my getting interrupted by
>
Missing line? Once is a gremlin. Twice is -- something else? though
in this case the timing, so to speak, is interesting.
[ snip ]
--
Decline To State
(But the e-mail address in the header should work.)
nonsense
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 18:36:01 -0500, nonsense <nons...@unsettled.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Ki...@teranews.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:59:18 -0700, jen...@mailinator.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
>>>>
>>>>I was surprised some people think it means * when I'd assume anyone
>>>>meant * if they said 12:00pm.
>>>>
>>>>* = noon/midnight
>>>>
>>>>If you are interested, you can vote here:
>>>>http://www.buzzdash.com/?page=buzzbite&BB_id=27277
>>>>
>>>>(It's just a common poll site, no gimmicks, just click on noon or
>>>>midnight in the box.)
>>>
>>>
>>>The voting is at 82% for noon so far, with 520 votes cast.
>>>
>>>It seems some people are missing the point, talking about a
>>>non-existant instant in time. The question is what do you think of
>>>first - what do you think is meant when you hear that? I think it's
>>>pretty simple. At 12:00 noon half the day has passed, and you are in
>>>the PM.
>>
>>I've always considered the question to legitimately
>>yield an answer that is "inconclusive." So in this
>>instance I didn't vote because no correct answer
>>was provided.
>
>
> The poll is worded "When you hear "12:00pm," do you first think
> noon or midnight?"
Inconclusive is what I first think. Why do you have a
problem with what I "first think?" What makes you believe
that *everyone* is going to have the reaction you expect?
> It doesn't ask what you think it means. I think
> that is notable, and was for a reason. The question came up, the
> person researched it, and then wanted to know what people thought of
> when they hear 12:00pm, without thinking about it ("first think").
> For someone who already spent time on the question, and accepts
> "the instant of" reasoning or finds it to be inconclusive or unsettled
> - they may actually not think of one first. I can imagine having that
> view already, seeing the question, and not actually thinking of one or
> the other FIRST. (I thinks of it as noon because of the overwhelming
> usage I have experienced, and because it makes more sense to me.)
> If the poll asked what you think it MEANSs, and had the choice of
> "neither/inconclusive," people would be more inclined to think about
> it, or look it up first to help them decide. The Google search --
> "12:00 PM" noon midnight -- has the greenwichmeantime sites take on it
> as the 2nd hit. A poll asking what it means would not represent usage
> as accurately as the first one does.
>
>
>
Ki...@teranews.com
wrote:
If you read the text below you would see it says "I can imagine
having that view already, seeing the question, and not actually
thinking of one or the other FIRST," i.e., I don't have a problem
with that.
Narelle
> Ki...@teranews.com wrote:
>snip<
>>
>> The poll is worded "When you hear "12:00pm," do you first think
>> noon or midnight?"
>
>
> Inconclusive is what I first think.
Us-centric as well imo. Many here (Aus) would refer to noon as "midday".
I had a conversation this week with a friend, arranging a lunch date.
She said that she would arrive at my house "at about midday". She will
be here around what you are referring to as "noon".
I think that if she had said she would be here at noon, I would have
questioned the timing further, just to make sure she meant 12:00, and
not later in the afternoon.
N
Oleg Lego
>On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:02:25 -0700, jen...@mailinator.com wrote:
>
>>When you hear 12:00pm, do you first think of noon, or midnight?
>>
>>I was surprised some people think it means * when I'd assume anyone
>>meant * if they said 12:00pm.
>>
>>* = noon/midnight
>>
>>If you are interested, you can vote here:
>>http://www.buzzdash.com/?page=buzzbite&BB_id=27277
>>
>>(It's just a common poll site, no gimmicks, just click on noon or
>>midnight in the box.)
>
>The voting is at 82% for noon so far, with 520 votes cast.
>
>It seems some people are missing the point, talking about a
>non-existant instant in time. The question is what do you think of
>first - what do you think is meant when you hear that? I think it's
>pretty simple. At 12:00 noon half the day has passed, and you are in
>the PM.
Right. So noon is 12:00 AM.
Oleg Lego
Right. So noon is 12 PM.
Nick Atty
<mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>>[1] Yes, that really is
>>
>> I figured that couldn't be it since ... since so many devices
>> allow you to switch I would have expected ...
>>
>> I wouldn't have thought that "since" was a word you could double
>> like that but "I figured X since since Y Z" actually seems right,
>> though I probably wouldn't have done it if there wasn't another
>> reason separating them. (I think I probably would have made one
>> of them "because".)
>
>It doesn't seem right to me. I'd have written "I figured that couldn't
>be it since (1) <first reason>, and (2) <second reason>", or "I figured
>that couldn't be it (1) since <first reason>, and (2) since <second
>reason>".
Doesn't work for me either.
However, I can get a doubled "since" with "I didn't pay with that coin
since since 1972 it's not been legal currency".
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk
(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)
My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon
Hans Aberg
<r...@atatatat.com> wrote:
> So noon is 12 PM.
It is a widespread convention, just as by English convention, the number 0
is not positive, though it is in Swedish, German and French, I recall.
Hans Aberg
nonsense
> nonsense wrote:
>
>> Ki...@teranews.com wrote:
>> snip<
>>
>>>
>>> The poll is worded "When you hear "12:00pm," do you first think
>>> noon or midnight?"
>>
>>
>>
>> Inconclusive is what I first think.
>
>
> Us-centric as well imo.
Euro-centric as well.
> Many here (Aus) would refer to noon as "midday".
> I had a conversation this week with a friend, arranging a lunch date.
> She said that she would arrive at my house "at about midday". She will
> be here around what you are referring to as "noon".
> I think that if she had said she would be here at noon, I would have
> questioned the timing further, just to make sure she meant 12:00, and
> not later in the afternoon.
Where does that leave you with the original question.
This is a nice diversion, but you ran way off topic
with your bit-o-centrism idea.
Percival P. Cassidy
>> It seems some people are missing the point, talking about a
>> non-existant instant in time. The question is what do you think of
>> first - what do you think is meant when you hear that? I think it's
>> pretty simple. At 12:00 noon half the day has passed, and you are in
>> the PM.
> Right. So noon is 12:00 AM.
No. Noon is M. Neither AM nor PM, just M. One second earlier is 11:59:59
AM; one second later is 12:00:01 PM; but 12:00:00 is precisely M. So, if
we can't use "12:00 noon" or simply "noon," let's just use "12:00m."
Perce