OT: visiting Ireland and England

[Jerry Friedman]

It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
in France or Spain?

My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?

Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem. She'll
just practice here.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mike Barnes]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com>:

>It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
>this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
>ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
>in France or Spain?

I'll be here - I take my holidays at other times of year.

>My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
>used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
>trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
>attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
>side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
>unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
>about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
>experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
>on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?

I can completely understand the lack of enthusiasm for a coach tour.
That's no way to see a country.

I've come across many Americans visiting the UK and without exception
they've refused to countenance driving on the wrong side of the road,
especially when they see the roads and the driving style which are
unlike anything they've come across back home. How "unpleasant" it will
be depends on the skill level and attitude of the driver. But even a
very skilled and well motivated driver will find it hard work if they're
not used to it, because of the intense concentration required.

A satnav would be a great help.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[Nick Spalding]

Jerry Friedman wrote, in
<ab448fb6-c772-4d32...@y5g2000yqy.googlegroups.com>
on Sun, 12 May 2013 09:28:17 -0700 (PDT):

> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
> this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
> ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
> in France or Spain?
>
> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
> trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
> attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
> side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
> unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
> about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?

My experience of the opposite, driving a hire car in America, is that it
is no problem with the wheel on the appropriate side of the car.

> Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem. She'll
> just practice here.

I would definitely be on for a meeting in the Dublin area.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[John Briggs]

European Union money has transformed the roads in Ireland - there are
now motorways. (A side effect of that is that distances on motorways are
now given in kilometres...)
--
John Briggs

[Leslie Danks]

When I lived in the UK and visited the continent, the right side became the
right side while the left side was the wrong side. I now live in Austria and
when I visit the UK, the right side is the left side and the right side is
the wrong side. I have never found it difficult to do the right thing as
long as other traffic is visible -- you just slot in and do what everyone
else does. The biggest problem is driving off on an empty road after a stop.
At times like these, lack of concentration can lead to embarassing
encounters of the somethingth kind. I presume your mother will be driving a
hire car with the steering wheel on the appropriate side, which will act as
an aide-de-memoir. My ("German") GPS behaves exactly as it should when I
visit the UK.

--
Les (BrE)
"... be skeptical of government guidelines. The Indians learned not to trust
our government and neither should you." (Fallon & Enig)

[Andy Leighton]

On Sun, 12 May 2013 09:28:17 -0700 (PDT),
Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
> trains aren't great,

Well first of all check the trains http://www.irishrail.ie/ first.
Depending on where you are going it can be worthwhile - especially
if you are nervous of driving.

There are also public buses http://www.buseireann.ie/ which have
a national network and in quite a few places some privately
operated buses.

I was able to operate without a car (I don't drive so a car
was not an option) when I visited Ireland. Although as I was
on my own I was more flexible than in a group.

So I guess a lot depends on your itinerary.

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

[LFS]

On 12/05/2013 17:28, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
> this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
> ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
> in France or Spain?

I'll be home all through August! Excellent opportunity for a boink in
London or Oxford! We might even get Stephanie to come from Brussels.

>
> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
> trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
> attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
> side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
> unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
> about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?
>
> Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem. She'll
> just practice here.

Good for her :)



--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-05-12 17:11:49 +0000, Leslie Danks said:

> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
>> this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
>> ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
>> in France or Spain?
>>
>> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
>> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
>> trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
>> attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
>> side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
>> unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
>> about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
>> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
>> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?
>>
>> Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem. She'll
>> just practice here.
>
> When I lived in the UK and visited the continent, the right side became the
> right side while the left side was the wrong side. I now live in Austria and
> when I visit the UK, the right side is the left side and the right side is
> the wrong side. I have never found it difficult to do the right thing as
> long as other traffic is visible -- you just slot in and do what everyone
> else does. The biggest problem is driving off on an empty road after a stop.

Yes. Also when you're driving on something that isn't a road, like
coming out of a parking space into a lane between parking spaces. I've
several times come close to approaching cars coming towards me on the
wrong side. Having the steering wheel on the appropriate side is a big
help, but I've found it's not as bad as people say when it's on the
wrong side.

> At times like these, lack of concentration can lead to embarassing
> encounters of the somethingth kind. I presume your mother will be driving a
> hire car with the steering wheel on the appropriate side, which will act as
> an aide-de-memoir. My ("German") GPS behaves exactly as it should when I
> visit the UK.


--

athel

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 12 May 2013 09:28:17 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I've traveled in Ireland (ROI) three times, and rented a car each
time. Never had a problem doing so, and would not consider doing it
any other way.

The only driving on the left problem I had was the first day I was
back in the US when I turned left on a street a block from my house
and pulled into the left lane. Momentarily. *Very* momentarily.

In a left-driving country, you tend to be aware of the need to force
your instincts and stay to the left. Back home, your instincts have
been re-programmed and you have to force yourself to drive on the
right. Just for a short time, though.

The coach vs rental car is a different decision, though. Some people
like having all the "work" taken out of getting from here to there and
want to sit back and let someone else do it. Personally, I like to be
able to stop when I feel like stopping, follow a by-way when I feel
like it, and double-back when I think I passed something I'd like to
see at greater length.

I took a coach tour once in Germany because it was a requirement. It
was part of a tour of several Zeiss facilities. Once the tour part
was over, I couldn't wait to hire a car and go on my own.

With a coach tour, you'll eat where the tour company decides you'll
eat, and that's usually predicated on some sort of backhander from the
restaurant. You'll have 18 minutes to see something you'd like to
have 30 minutes to see, and 30 minutes to see something you'd like to
leave in 18 minutes. The driver has a schedule and a fixed routing.

Some of our most enjoyable side trips were a result of hearing about
something when there, and going "off plan". We planned each day's
outing, and very seldom stuck to the plan.

The coach tour, though, can be more social. You can chat with
strangers if you get tired of your own family. The downside is that
you can't avoid certain strangers that you would like to avoid.

There's some sort of "rule" that every coach tour of Americans must
contain at least one loud-mouthed American who points out that
whatever it is, it isn't as good as back home...from the food, to the
accommodations, to the sights. Also to beware of is a coach tour that
includes some non-Americans who don't have the same attitude about
body odor that we do.

The worst part about car rentals is that the cars - compared to ours -
have no space in them for people or luggage. Figure out how to
activate the hooter before you need to else you'll be pounding parts
of the car that make no sound. Take at least one small bag with
things you might need during the day that you can put in the boot
last. Otherwise, you'll be emptying out everything to get at the
suitcase that contains a dry shirt or sweater.

All-in-all, if the appeal of someone else being in charge of your
itinerary is a big thing, go coach. If you want to be impulsive, hire
a car. I wouldn't let the driving experience itself be the deciding
factor.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Leslie Danks]

I agree - and one's initial reaction is to think "Why is that fool driving
on the wrong side of the road?" Overtaking can be awkward unless you have
implicit faith in your front seat passenger, but patience is a virtue and I
don't suppose Jerry's mother will be doing boy racer impersonations down
Irish country lanes.

>> At times like these, lack of concentration can lead to embarassing
>> encounters of the somethingth kind. I presume your mother will be driving
>> a hire car with the steering wheel on the appropriate side, which will
>> act as an aide-de-memoir. My ("German") GPS behaves exactly as it should
>> when I visit the UK.
>
>

--

[Paul Wolff]

In message <ava22a...@mid.individual.net>, LFS
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes

>On 12/05/2013 17:28, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
>> this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
>> ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
>> in France or Spain?
>
>I'll be home all through August! Excellent opportunity for a boink in
>London or Oxford! We might even get Stephanie to come from Brussels.

If Jerry came to Oxford I'd be there among the dreaming spires. Please
don't choose a croquet tournament weekend, that's all.

>
>>
>> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
>> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
>> trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
>> attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
>> side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
>> unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
>> about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
>> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
>> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?
>>
>> Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem. She'll
>> just practice here.
>
>Good for her :)

Others have given good advice about driving. It's not difficult once
you're on the move. It's starting off that can go wrong. And even if you
normally drive with a manual gearbox, get an automatic, or you'll
forever be trying to change gear with a shift that isn't where you're
groping for it with the wrong hand. The other irritant is the rear-view
mirror up at the centre of the windscreen, which is also in the wrong
place when you unthinkingly glance up to it. Use the door mirrors.

--
Paul

[Katy Jennison]

On 12/05/2013 19:41, Paul Wolff wrote:
> In message <ava22a...@mid.individual.net>, LFS
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
>> On 12/05/2013 17:28, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
>>> this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
>>> ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
>>> in France or Spain?
>>
>> I'll be home all through August! Excellent opportunity for a boink in
>> London or Oxford! We might even get Stephanie to come from Brussels.
>
> If Jerry came to Oxford I'd be there among the dreaming spires. Please
> don't choose a croquet tournament weekend, that's all.

I hope I'll be around, although August is starting to look a little busy.

>>> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
>>> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
>>> trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
>>> attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
>>> side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
>>> unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
>>> about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
>>> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
>>> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?
>>>
>>> Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem. She'll
>>> just practice here.
>>
>> Good for her :)
>
> Others have given good advice about driving. It's not difficult once
> you're on the move. It's starting off that can go wrong. And even if you
> normally drive with a manual gearbox, get an automatic, or you'll
> forever be trying to change gear with a shift that isn't where you're
> groping for it with the wrong hand. The other irritant is the rear-view
> mirror up at the centre of the windscreen, which is also in the wrong
> place when you unthinkingly glance up to it. Use the door mirrors.
>

I agree with all of that. I'd just add that it's not just a matter of
unfamiliar sides of the road or of instruments in strange places, but
also the types of roads and the driving culture. Motorways tend to be
fairly similar, or at least not totally dissimilar, the world over, but
away from the motorways it's useful to be alert to unspoken, unwritten
conventions. I'm trying to think of examples, but failing dismally; I
know I slot back into a different style of driving when I'm in
small-town Illinois, and then have to re-adjust when I get back to
Blighty, but I'm dashed if I can put my finger on precise features.

--
Katy Jennison

[James Silverton]

Even after having lived in the US for most of my life, I don't have
difficulty adjusting to driving on the left. I'll admit that I learned
to drive in Britain and the gear lever being on my left tends to put me
in the correct frame of mind. However, I have to be careful for a little
while since I am not sure how I might react in an emergency.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.

[Curlytop]

John Briggs set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> European Union money has transformed the roads in Ireland - there are
> now motorways. (A side effect of that is that distances on motorways are
> now given in kilometres...)

Actually the switch to km is unrelated to the EU funding, just another link
to the UK severed, as the RoI has been doing gradually since Partition in
1921. I'm surprised they haven`t yet switched to driving on the right, but
since they have a land border with Civilisation that could cause some nice
problems at the border itself.

I have driven on the European mainland. I had no problems with left turns,
and the only mistake I made was when a police motorcycle came up behind me
with blue lights flashing. I pulled over to the left - obstructing him
rather than giving him a clear run through - but soon realised the mistake
and pulled right. He whizzed on through giving me nothing more than a dirty
look.
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

[Mike L]

It will be wonderful to see you at last, Jerry.

If the driving changeover worries you (and, yes, it can be a bit
worrying to begin with), you could book an hour's tuition with a local
driving school before you pick up your hire car.

--
Mike.

[the Omrud]

On 12/05/2013 17:28, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
> this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
> ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
> in France or Spain?

Yep, sorry, I'll be in France.

> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
> trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
> attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
> side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
> unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
> about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?

Many have already commented - my only addition is that there are parts
of the west of Ireland where standard European pictorial road signs
disappear and are replaced by text-only signs. Unfortunately for most
of us, these are sometimes written only in Gaelic.

--
David

[Jerry Friedman]

As long as they're no worse than embarrassing.

> I presume your mother will be driving a
> hire car with the steering wheel on the appropriate side, which will act as
> an aide-de-memoir.

(She meant she would practice on busy streets. Possibly I'm more
familiar with her sense of humor than most a.u.e.-ers are.)

> My ("German") GPS behaves exactly as it should when I
> visit the UK.

If it behaves as it should in Ireland, does it tell you that the place
where you are isn't where you should be starting from at all?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 12, 12:41 pm, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ava22aFn65...@mid.individual.net>, LFS

> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
> >On 12/05/2013 17:28, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
> >> this summer.  Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
> >> ers?  What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
> >> in France or Spain?
>
> >I'll be home all through August! Excellent opportunity for a boink in
> >London or Oxford! We might even get Stephanie to come from Brussels.

My very thoughts!

> If Jerry came to Oxford I'd be there among the dreaming spires. Please
> don't choose a croquet tournament weekend, that's all.

...

We may have to coordinate.

> >> Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem.  She'll
> >> just practice here.
>
> >Good for her :)
>
> Others have given good advice about driving. It's not difficult once
> you're on the move.

This may depend on the person. My brother says that for the first
day, every fiber of your being screams that you're in the wrong place.

> It's starting off that can go wrong. And even if you
> normally drive with a manual gearbox, get an automatic, or you'll
> forever be trying to change gear with a shift that isn't where you're
> groping for it with the wrong hand.

I normally drive an automatic, so I'm definitely taking that advice.

> The other irritant is the rear-view
> mirror up at the centre of the windscreen, which is also in the wrong
> place when you unthinkingly glance up to it. Use the door mirrors.

Thanks for all the advice.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Sam Plusnet]

In article <kmos9a$1u7$1...@dont-email.me>, not.jim....@verizon.net
says...

> Even after having lived in the US for most of my life, I don't have
> difficulty adjusting to driving on the left. I'll admit that I learned
> to drive in Britain and the gear lever being on my left tends to put me
> in the correct frame of mind. However, I have to be careful for a little
> while since I am not sure how I might react in an emergency.
>
>

That's the key point I think.

Most people can adapt reasonably easily, but in an emergency we all
react on instinct, and one's long-learned reflexes can point you in the
wrong direction.

That said, one of my worst moments came after returning home - when
emerging from a narrow lane where left & right had been irrelevant.


--
Sam

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 12, 11:05 am, Mike Barnes <mikebarnes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>:

>
> >It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
> >this summer.  Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
> >ers?  What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
> >in France or Spain?
>
> I'll be here - I take my holidays at other times of year.
>
> >My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
> >used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
> >trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
> >attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
> >side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
> >unpleasant.  Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
> >about taking a commercial tour, though.  Does anyone have any
> >experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
> >on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road?  What if you have GPS?
>
> I can completely understand the lack of enthusiasm for a coach tour.
> That's no way to see a country.

I get the impression one can get around England much better than
Ireland on trains and buses, and you definitely see a country if you
take public transportation. On the other hand, you can't stop if you
see an interesting bird, even in Britain.

> I've come across many Americans visiting the UK and without exception
> they've refused to countenance driving on the wrong side of the road,
> especially when they see the roads and the driving style which are
> unlike anything they've come across back home.

Can you explain, or give an example or two, of how the roads and the
driving style are different?

My brother did say that if you see someone in London who's stuck on a
roundabout, you know they're American.

> How "unpleasant" it will
> be depends on the skill level and attitude of the driver. But even a
> very skilled and well motivated driver will find it hard work if they're
> not used to it, because of the intense concentration required.
>
> A satnav would be a great help.

My mother has one, so that's good.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Leslie Danks]

Up to now, I've been lucky...

>> I presume your mother will be driving a
>> hire car with the steering wheel on the appropriate side, which will act
>> as an aide-de-memoir.
>
> (She meant she would practice on busy streets. Possibly I'm more
> familiar with her sense of humor than most a.u.e.-ers are.)
>
>> My ("German") GPS behaves exactly as it should when I
>> visit the UK.
>
> If it behaves as it should in Ireland, does it tell you that the place
> where you are isn't where you should be starting from at all?

A good question, but I've never been across the Irish Sea to put it to the
test at all, at all.

[jgharston]

Mike Barnes wrote:
> A satnav would be a great help.

Useful for generic route planning, but no substitute for checking an
actual map for an overview, and actually reading road signs (eg "no
entry", "unsuitable for motors", "danger - deep ford", etc.)

JGH

[Robert Bannister]

There are three problems that arise when you change which side of the
road you drive on:

1. roundabouts - for some reason, the idea of clockwise or widdershins
is deeply embedded in our driving brain and you need to beware;
2. parking on the wrong side of the road. Whether for petrol, coffee or
souvenirs, the car has a habit of taking off on the side of the road you
are used to;
3. returning home - this is always the worst part - to begin with, it
all seems so natural to be back on what you are used to thinking of as
the correct side, but foreign ways have a tendency to creep into one's
consciousness so watch out for those roundabouts and caf�s on the wrong
side of the road all over again.

Finally, Ireland. There are some some wonderful roads including
motorways (freeways), but the scenic areas tend to have very narrow
roads squashed between stone walls or hedgerows so that you can't see
around bends, and all the other drivers appear to be totally mad, going
at either 80mph or 8mph.
--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

All the same, I think we can assume that Jerry will have a hire car
which will most certainly have the steering wheel in the correct
position for the local roads. This really does make a huge difference.
--
Robert Bannister

[John Briggs]

On 12/05/2013 18:11, Leslie Danks wrote:
>
> I presume your mother will be driving a
> hire car with the steering wheel on the appropriate side, which will act as
> an aide-de-memoir.

"Aide-m�moire" - assuming that was what you meant.
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

On 12/05/2013 22:25, Mike L wrote:
>
> If the driving changeover worries you (and, yes, it can be a bit
> worrying to begin with), you could book an hour's tuition with a local
> driving school before you pick up your hire car.

From the archives of Usenet, I offer this cautionary tale:

BTW all this reminds me of a young French woman I was dating some 25
years ago. An attractive, intelligent and aristocratic young woman, the
daughter of a French general, she was doing some study in England. She
had learnt to drive in Paris but thought it would be a good idea to take
some driving lessons from a British instructor to learn how things are
done in England, what with driving on the other side of the road and
suchlike. Of course, having learnt to drive in the center of Paris she
was quite fearless. After her first lesson I asked her how things had
gone. She said her instructor had been a young Irishman. "Are all the
Irish very religious?" she asked. "How do you mean?" I said. "Well,"
she said, "the whole time he did nothing but cross himself and mutter
'Holy Mother of God!'"

John L. Speller
St. Louis, Missouri (where people really drive quite well.)

rec.music early, 28/01/1997
--
John Briggs

[Leslie Danks]

John Briggs wrote:

> On 12/05/2013 18:11, Leslie Danks wrote:
>>
>> I presume your mother will be driving a
>> hire car with the steering wheel on the appropriate side, which will act
>> as an aide-de-memoir.
>

> "Aide-mémoire" - assuming that was what you meant.

Yes, assuming you know what's what, though all manner of variants can be
found by googling. Sorry for my sloppiness, but I have never written the
phrase before and was relying on my memoir.

[Paul Wolff]

In message
<0d72d523-26f9-4436...@g9g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes

>On May 12, 12:41�pm, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ava22aFn65...@mid.individual.net>, LFS
>> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
>> >On 12/05/2013 17:28, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> >> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
>> >> this summer. �Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
>> >> ers? �What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
>> >> in France or Spain?
>>
>> >I'll be home all through August! Excellent opportunity for a boink in
>> >London or Oxford! We might even get Stephanie to come from Brussels.
>
>My very thoughts!
>
>> If Jerry came to Oxford I'd be there among the dreaming spires. Please
>> don't choose a croquet tournament weekend, that's all.
>...
>
>We may have to coordinate.
>

Easy. I'm not available on 10th or 11th August, and limited on the 9th.
--
Paul

[Mike Barnes]

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com>:

>On May 12, 11:05�am, Mike Barnes <mikebarnes...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>:
>>
>> >It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
>> >this summer. �Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
>> >ers? �What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
>> >in France or Spain?
>>
>> I'll be here - I take my holidays at other times of year.
>>
>> >My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
>> >used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
>> >trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
>> >attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
>> >side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
>> >unpleasant. �Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
>> >about taking a commercial tour, though. �Does anyone have any
>> >experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
>> >on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? �What if you have GPS?
>>
>> I can completely understand the lack of enthusiasm for a coach tour.
>> That's no way to see a country.
>
>I get the impression one can get around England much better than
>Ireland on trains and buses, and you definitely see a country if you
>take public transportation. On the other hand, you can't stop if you
>see an interesting bird, even in Britain.

I'd draw a clear distinction between getting around on trains and buses,
and taking a coach tour. You're more exposed to the country's people on
public transport than a coach tour (or driving, for that matter).

>> I've come across many Americans visiting the UK and without exception
>> they've refused to countenance driving on the wrong side of the road,
>> especially when they see the roads and the driving style which are
>> unlike anything they've come across back home.
>
>Can you explain, or give an example or two, of how the roads and the
>driving style are different?

Roads: They're generally narrower, more likely to be obstructed by
roadside parking, and the road markings are quite different. For the UK
(Ireland being closer to that than what I recall of the USA) take a look
here:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070563.pdf

or for more general reading, the whole highway code:

https://www.gov.uk/browse/driving/highway-code

Driving: Americans generally comment that people here drive a lot faster
and with much narrower margins of error. Having said that the accident
rate is actually very low, and your chances of being shot are minimal.

Example: I came across what I believe to be a small but important
difference between the UK and Ireland. Two cars on a two-lane road and
they're both approaching a parked car from opposite directions, which
means that one has to give way. In the UK the unbending rule (and 99%
practice) is that the driver on the same side as the obstruction gives
way so as not to even slightly impede the car coming the other way. In
my experience in Ireland, the driver who got there first assumed
priority, even if the obstruction was on their side of the road.

>My brother did say that if you see someone in London who's stuck on a
>roundabout, you know they're American.

You only get stuck on a roundabout because of a traffic jam or lights.
Otherwise you keep going round while you make your mind up. Even the
locals do that.

>> How "unpleasant" it will
>> be depends on the skill level and attitude of the driver. But even a
>> very skilled and well motivated driver will find it hard work if they're
>> not used to it, because of the intense concentration required.
>>
>> A satnav would be a great help.
>
>My mother has one, so that's good.

I'd double-check that it has maps for the area concerned. And bring a
long lead because in some cars the 12V socket is by the driver's elbow.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[J. J. Lodder]

The worst is coming out of a driveway
which is a right angles to the road you are turning onto.
(and no trafic in sight)
That really takes the concious mind overriding the subconcious
to do the right thing,

Jan

[Nick Spalding]

Robert Bannister wrote, in <avaqbr...@mid.individual.net>
on Mon, 13 May 2013 08:27:36 +0800:

4. Emerging from the leg of a T junction it is all too easy to start on

the wrong side of the road.

--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Don Phillipson]

"Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ab448fb6-c772-4d32...@y5g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...

> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't

> used to driving . . . the experience of driving yourself will be very
> unpleasant. . . . Does anyone have any

> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?

We are used to driving on the other side of the road, familiar with
N.America (right), Britain (left), Netherlands (right), Ireland (left) etc.
Except only in Dublin and Belfast at rush hour, driving in Ireland is
delightful and no strain. I specially recommend the rural west of
Ireland, the only place I ever believed in ghosts.

(In 40 years I suddenly realized just three times that I was driving
on the wrong side of the road, once in France (aged 20), Ireland
(at 30) and Canada (40.) No collisions ensued (but I gave the
other French driver a nasty fright.)

Narrow British roads can be alarming. This is why all the exterior
mirrors are mounted on springs. (I always buy insurance and twice
needed it for damage to rental cars' paintwork.) I have not used GPS,
being familiar with maps. Excellent road maps are widely sold in
Britain.

People apprehensive about driving on the other side should
first take time to learn the (rented?) car controls and handling
well enough for confidence. At airport rental lots it is usually
possible to drive in circles round the parking lot for 10 minutes
to get used to the feel of a new car on the "wrong" side. Of
more practical importance are the local rules of the road,
e.g. whether the car to your right has precedence or not,
how to proceed on motorways or at roundabouts (traffic
circles) etc. But there would not be a huge overseas car
rental industry if many amateur drivers found this intolerable.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Mike L]

On Mon, 13 May 2013 09:16:50 +0200, Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at>
wrote:

>John Briggs wrote:
>
>> On 12/05/2013 18:11, Leslie Danks wrote:
>>>
>>> I presume your mother will be driving a
>>> hire car with the steering wheel on the appropriate side, which will act
>>> as an aide-de-memoir.
>>

>> "Aide-m�moire" - assuming that was what you meant.

>
>Yes, assuming you know what's what, though all manner of variants can be
>found by googling. Sorry for my sloppiness, but I have never written the
>phrase before and was relying on my memoir.

Right: I'm finally learning not to trust my reminiscences.

--
Mike.

[Dr Nick]

I love travelling on foreign public transport for just those reasons.

>
>>> I've come across many Americans visiting the UK and without exception
>>> they've refused to countenance driving on the wrong side of the road,
>>> especially when they see the roads and the driving style which are
>>> unlike anything they've come across back home.
>>
>>Can you explain, or give an example or two, of how the roads and the
>>driving style are different?
>
> Roads: They're generally narrower, more likely to be obstructed by
> roadside parking, and the road markings are quite different. For the UK
> (Ireland being closer to that than what I recall of the USA) take a look
> here:
>
> http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070563.pdf
>
> or for more general reading, the whole highway code:
>
> https://www.gov.uk/browse/driving/highway-code
>
> Driving: Americans generally comment that people here drive a lot faster
> and with much narrower margins of error. Having said that the accident
> rate is actually very low, and your chances of being shot are minimal.
>
> Example: I came across what I believe to be a small but important
> difference between the UK and Ireland. Two cars on a two-lane road and
> they're both approaching a parked car from opposite directions, which
> means that one has to give way. In the UK the unbending rule (and 99%
> practice) is that the driver on the same side as the obstruction gives
> way so as not to even slightly impede the car coming the other way. In
> my experience in Ireland, the driver who got there first assumed
> priority, even if the obstruction was on their side of the road.

As an American living in Ireland said, if a road in Ireland isn't wide
enough for two-way traffic they solve the problem by painting a white
line down the middle.

>
>>My brother did say that if you see someone in London who's stuck on a
>>roundabout, you know they're American.
>
> You only get stuck on a roundabout because of a traffic jam or lights.
> Otherwise you keep going round while you make your mind up. Even the
> locals do that.

Oh yes, we all do that.

>
>>> How "unpleasant" it will
>>> be depends on the skill level and attitude of the driver. But even a
>>> very skilled and well motivated driver will find it hard work if they're
>>> not used to it, because of the intense concentration required.
>>>
>>> A satnav would be a great help.
>>
>>My mother has one, so that's good.
>
> I'd double-check that it has maps for the area concerned. And bring a
> long lead because in some cars the 12V socket is by the driver's elbow.

In my experience (a driving holiday in Ireland) everything everybody says
about the friendliness of the Irish is true. And outside the big towns
the roads are very quiet.

If your driving experience includes small back roads I don't think
you'll find it too much of a challenge.

[Dr Nick]

John Briggs <john.b...@ntlworld.com> writes:

> On 12/05/2013 17:28, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
>> this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
>> ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
>> in France or Spain?
>>

>> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
>> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
>> trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
>> attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
>> side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
>> unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
>> about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
>> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
>> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?
>>

>> Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem. She'll
>> just practice here.
>

> European Union money has transformed the roads in Ireland - there are
> now motorways. (A side effect of that is that distances on motorways
> are now given in kilometres...)

IIRC it's also given in km on some road signs. The colour of the signs
apparently gives you a hint as to whether they are in km or miles.

[Dr Nick]

Paul Wolff <boun...@two.wolff.co.uk> writes:

> Others have given good advice about driving. It's not difficult once
> you're on the move. It's starting off that can go wrong. And even if
> you normally drive with a manual gearbox, get an automatic, or you'll
> forever be trying to change gear with a shift that isn't where you're
> groping for it with the wrong hand. The other irritant is the
> rear-view mirror up at the centre of the windscreen, which is also in
> the wrong place when you unthinkingly glance up to it. Use the door
> mirrors.

I never had any problems with that when I hired a manual in Latvia. I
think I'd much rather have that than the wonderful "emergency" stops
I've managed in automatics.

[Dr Nick]

"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:

> "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ab448fb6-c772-4d32...@y5g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
>
>> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
>> used to driving . . . the experience of driving yourself will be very
>> unpleasant. . . . Does anyone have any
>> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
>> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?
>
> We are used to driving on the other side of the road, familiar with
> N.America (right), Britain (left), Netherlands (right), Ireland (left) etc.
> Except only in Dublin and Belfast at rush hour, driving in Ireland is
> delightful and no strain. I specially recommend the rural west of
> Ireland, the only place I ever believed in ghosts.

And where some of the most attractive roads are banned to coach traffic.
The Dingle peninsula for example.

[jgharston]

Mike Barnes wrote:
> In the UK the unbending rule (and 99%
> practice) is that the driver on the same side as the obstruction gives
> way so as not to even slightly impede the car coming the other way.

The rule is that if you have to impede somebody else (eg, go onto the
wrong side of the road, turn in front of somebody, etc.), you give
way.

Now, guess what happens at a crossroads where you both want to turn
across each other's paths ;)

JGH

[James Silverton]

Neither the British nor the Irish have four-way stops as far as I know
and my British visitors, at least, say they are amazed at how well the
stops work and how Americans wave on other drivers when there is any
doubt who stopped first.


--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.

[BCD]

On 5/12/2013 9:28 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
> this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
> ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
> in France or Spain?
>

> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't

> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
> trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
> attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
> side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
> unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic

> about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any

> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?
>

> Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem. She'll
> just practice here.

***In 1985, I took what I call my Henry VI tour (well, it included
Tewkesbury and York. And London. Don't forget London.) of England by
public coach (as opposed to tourist-infested coach arranged by a tour
company). I'm actually glad I did it that way, as it gave me unique
memories, of which I'll share one. Or maybe two or three. On the long
long ride from Bristol to York, a scruffy but intense young man had the
seat beside me. As I am a rather reserved demi-Swede, and he was a
reserved Brit, we of course did not speak to each other, as we hadn't
been properly introduced. An hour or so into the trip, I noticed that
he was reading again and again a packet of official-looking papers. At
length, out of the corner of my eye, I finally was able to read: TERMS
OF PAROLE. "Great," thought I, "I'm sitting next to the Midlands
Murderer." An hour later, I felt something pressing on my shoulder . .
. and it turned out that Mr. Parole had fallen asleep, and lay his weary
head there, rather to the friendly amusement of those seated farther
back in the vehicle. He slept until we finally rolled into York, when
the sudden motionlessness of the coach awakened him. At first, he
looked at me in astonishment, having realized that my shoulder had been
his pillow for a few hours; then he looked around, asked me something
which, due to his heavy rural accent, was completely incomprehensible
(after years of pondering the matter, I decided that it was something on
the order of "Well, is this York, then?"), and bolted off the coach.
And then, on the road from York to Lincoln, there was the young girl who
obliged me to ask the driver, on her behalf, why he had failed to let
her off at, um, some small town as he was supposed to do, resulting in
an extended circuitous detour back to the town as the driver tried to
find roads which would accommodate his vehicle. This added some forty
minutes to the journey, which obliged an alcoholic gentleman to compound
the delay by requesting stops for the pressing needs of his bladder. We
had all become quite jolly at this point. Some hearty women who sat
near him advised all in hearing not to light a match within the extent
of his breath, "or there might be an explosion." In short, I guarantee
that, if you go by coach--public coach--you will have memories which you
will treasure forevermore.

Best Wishes,

--BCD

[Paul Wolff]

In message <kmrfgp$a8f$1...@dont-email.me>, James Silverton
<not.jim....@verizon.net> writes

And remember always to wave with two fingers only.

Oops.
--
Paul

[Mike Barnes]

James Silverton <not.jim....@verizon.net>:

>Neither the British nor the Irish have four-way stops as far as I know
>and my British visitors, at least, say they are amazed at how well the
>stops work and how Americans wave on other drivers when there is any
>doubt who stopped first.

Agreed. Just like many Americans are surprised at how well roundabouts
work. Especially the advanced ones...

http://goo.gl/maps/FOfgz (approach sign)
http://goo.gl/maps/3qVpi (aerial photo)

[Mike Barnes]

Dr Nick <nosp...@temporary-address.org.uk>:

>As an American living in Ireland said, if a road in Ireland isn't wide
>enough for two-way traffic they solve the problem by painting a white
>line down the middle.

IME it's a broad green line. With dandelions in it at this time of year.

[R H Draney]

Dr Nick filted:

>
>John Briggs <john.b...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>>
>> European Union money has transformed the roads in Ireland - there are
>> now motorways. (A side effect of that is that distances on motorways
>> are now given in kilometres...)
>
>IIRC it's also given in km on some road signs. The colour of the signs
>apparently gives you a hint as to whether they are in km or miles.

Figures...when in doubt, screw the color-blind....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Cheryl]

Well, if you have stop signs at the crossroads it would be a four-way
stop, and I think local law says that the first to arrive goes first,
then the second and so on. Of course, the few who know this rule are
never very sure if the other person knows it, and people tend to
hesitate uncertainly or just barrel right through.

--
Cheryl

[Mike Barnes]

jgharston <j...@mdfs.net>:

I remember a thread about this not long ago (but it might have been in
another group). The driver on the major road has priority. If that
doesn't help, here in the UK where we drive on the left, the left-turner
has priority over the right-turner. That's what my driving instruction
taught me, anyway. If both are turning left or both turning right,
there's usually no conflict.

[David Hatunen]

http://tinyurl.com/boldmpb

I've looked at it in Google Earth Streetview and it looks even scarier
from eye level.


Dave Hatunen, Tucson
Free Baja Arizona

[Robin Bignall]

On Mon, 13 May 2013 21:05:09 +0100, Mike Barnes
<mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:

We've got one of those just north of where I'm sitting.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=51.786566,-0.014623&spn=0.001676,0.005284&t=k&z=18

The only accident I ever had in my life where I had to make a claim from
my insurance company (it was knock for knock so the other person's
insurance company paid for her car) was on this island.
--
Robin Bignall
Herts, England (BrE)

[Robin Bignall]

Slamming it into "park" while moving? Is that possible? (Needless to
say, despite a desire to supply test data to AUE, I'm not going to try
that at home.)

[Robert Bannister]

My mind boggles at how you achieved such a thing. I'll never go back to
a manual gearbox willingly, especially not now I live in the city.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

Agreed. I think that's one I never actually did myself, but I'm sure I
thought about it at some point.

--
Robert Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

I certainly remember some trips in Afghanistan like that. This was
before the war of course and public transport was by truck - you waved
down almost any passing truck. I always seemed to get one that was
carrying logs - basically tree trunks stacked vertically. When you had
climbed to top, you found a crowd of friendly people, plus a goat or two
and a small cooking stove - I can't remember much about the latter, like
why it didn't cause a fire. Despite the language barrier, there was much
conversation and jollity with food, but not goats, shared around.

--
Robert Bannister

[James Silverton]

Even for the shifting aficionados there seems a trend away from clutch
pedals. Mercedes often have mixed automatic and hand controls and even
gear change paddles on the steering wheel. I rented a "Smart Car" the
other day and it had those paddles too. I can't say I really liked them
but the automatic shift was not all that great either.

[Dr Nick]

No, forgetting you are in an automatic so, on approaching a junction
depressing your left foot firmly to disengage the clutch. Most
impressive - I genuinely didn't know cars could stop that fast.

[Dr Nick]

Mike Barnes <mikeba...@gmail.com> writes:

> James Silverton <not.jim....@verizon.net>:
>>Neither the British nor the Irish have four-way stops as far as I know
>>and my British visitors, at least, say they are amazed at how well the
>>stops work and how Americans wave on other drivers when there is any
>>doubt who stopped first.
>
> Agreed. Just like many Americans are surprised at how well roundabouts
> work.

In the last year or so I've observed some very strange behaviour at some
of our mini-roundabouts where a four-way approach would work better.

You come up to a three entrance roundabout and a car to your right has
just stopped to let a car to its right past. That car spots you and
doesn't go. There's a - prolonged - moment of confusion at the end of
which we all think "well, if they aren't moving..." and go forward at
the same time.

[Dr Nick]

Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com> writes:

> On Mon, 13 May 2013 21:05:09 +0100, Mike Barnes
> <mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>James Silverton <not.jim....@verizon.net>:
>>>Neither the British nor the Irish have four-way stops as far as I know
>>>and my British visitors, at least, say they are amazed at how well the
>>>stops work and how Americans wave on other drivers when there is any
>>>doubt who stopped first.
>>
>>Agreed. Just like many Americans are surprised at how well roundabouts
>>work. Especially the advanced ones...
>>
>> http://goo.gl/maps/FOfgz (approach sign)
>> http://goo.gl/maps/3qVpi (aerial photo)
>
> We've got one of those just north of where I'm sitting.
>
> https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=51.786566,-0.014623&spn=0.001676,0.005284&t=k&z=18

That one is slightly less weird: each approach road just enters the
major roundabout. In the Hemel one there is a mini-roundabout at each
junction, and the main roundabout has both clockwise and
counter-clockwise circulation.

[R H Draney]

Dr Nick filted:

>
>You come up to a three entrance roundabout and a car to your right has
>just stopped to let a car to its right past. That car spots you and
>doesn't go. There's a - prolonged - moment of confusion at the end of
>which we all think "well, if they aren't moving..." and go forward at
>the same time.

In a sane world, there's an interposed step:

(1) all think "well, if they aren't moving..."
(2) lean on the horn
(3) go forward at the same time

[Mike Barnes]

Robin Bignall <docr...@ntlworld.com>:

>On Mon, 13 May 2013 21:05:09 +0100, Mike Barnes
><mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>James Silverton <not.jim....@verizon.net>:
>>>Neither the British nor the Irish have four-way stops as far as I know
>>>and my British visitors, at least, say they are amazed at how well the
>>>stops work and how Americans wave on other drivers when there is any
>>>doubt who stopped first.
>>
>>Agreed. Just like many Americans are surprised at how well roundabouts
>>work. Especially the advanced ones...
>>
>> http://goo.gl/maps/FOfgz (approach sign)
>> http://goo.gl/maps/3qVpi (aerial photo)
>
>We've got one of those just north of where I'm sitting.
>
>https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=51.786566,-0.014623&spn=0.001676,
>0.005284&t=k&z=18

Take a close look and you'll see that in the HH "magic" roundabout the
large circle in the middle is not a roundabout. It's a circular road
with two lanes in each direction, incorporating six mini roundabouts
within its overall length of about 200 metres. If you understand that,
and you're comfortable with roundabouts, and you can use your
imagination to fill in the places where the paint has worn off, and you
keep your head, it's easy. Otherwise, it can be very confusing.

If you want a complex conventional roundabout, try this, with up to four
lanes on approach, up to six lanes on the roundabout itself, and six
sets of traffic lights:

http://goo.gl/maps/WJfWj

(best viewed without the 45 degrees option: turn it off using the Map
menu at top right)

[the Omrud]

Me neither, but I strongly suspect my car's computer would ignore an
instruction to switch to Park if the car is moving more than about 1 mph.

--
David

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I've never used the Hemel Hempstead one, but I have firmly fixed in my
mind that it is a circular two-way road with roundabouts at the
junctions with the other roads.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-05-13 21:16:24 +0200, Dr Nick <nosp...@temporary-address.org.uk> said:

> John Briggs <john.b...@ntlworld.com> writes:

>
>> On 12/05/2013 17:28, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
>>> this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
>>> ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
>>> in France or Spain?
>>>
>>> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
>>> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
>>> trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
>>> attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
>>> side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
>>> unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
>>> about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
>>> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
>>> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?
>>>
>>> Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem. She'll
>>> just practice here.
>>

>> European Union money has transformed the roads in Ireland - there are
>> now motorways. (A side effect of that is that distances on motorways
>> are now given in kilometres...)
>
> IIRC it's also given in km on some road signs. The colour of the signs
> apparently gives you a hint as to whether they are in km or miles.

In 1979 I was given a lift to a meeting by a colleague from Cork to
Killarney* in a car that he'd hired at the airport. We spent most of
the journey trying to decide whether the odometer and the road signs
were in miles or km. They agreed with one another, but we still weren't
sure, because along Irish roads of that time one could easily imagine
it would take the same time to cover a km that one would expect to be
needed for a mile in England.

*A place Jerry ought to include on his itinerary, incidentally. Also he
should plan for what to do on days when it rains all day (it's not by
chance that Ireland is so green).




--
athel

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 12, 3:25 pm, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 May 2013 18:32:58 +0100, LFS

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
> >On 12/05/2013 17:28, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
> >> this summer.  Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
> >> ers?  What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
> >> in France or Spain?
>

> >I'll be home all through August! Excellent opportunity for a boink in
> >London or Oxford! We might even get Stephanie to come from Brussels.

>
> >> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
> >> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
> >> trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
> >> attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
> >> side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
> >> unpleasant.  Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
> >> about taking a commercial tour, though.  Does anyone have any
> >> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
> >> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road?  What if you have GPS?
>
> >> Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem.  She'll
> >> just practice here.
>

> >Good for her :)
>
> It will be wonderful to see you at last, Jerry.

I'll feel the same, and I'm already counting on you for the boink.

> If the driving changeover worries you (and, yes, it can be a bit
> worrying to begin with), you could book an hour's tuition with a local
> driving school before you pick up your hire car.

That sounds like a very good idea. I guess you take a cab from the
airport to the driving school.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-05-12 21:44:35 +0200, Katy Jennison <ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> said:

> On 12/05/2013 19:41, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> In message <ava22a...@mid.individual.net>, LFS
>> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes

>>> On 12/05/2013 17:28, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
>>>> this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
>>>> ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
>>>> in France or Spain?
>>>
>>> I'll be home all through August! Excellent opportunity for a boink in
>>> London or Oxford! We might even get Stephanie to come from Brussels.
>>

>> If Jerry came to Oxford I'd be there among the dreaming spires. Please
>> don't choose a croquet tournament weekend, that's all.
>
> I hope I'll be around, although August is starting to look a little busy.

>
>>>> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
>>>> used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
>>>> trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
>>>> attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
>>>> side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
>>>> unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
>>>> about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
>>>> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
>>>> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?
>>>>
>>>> Mom says that driving on the left side will be no problem. She'll
>>>> just practice here.
>>>
>>> Good for her :)
>>

>> Others have given good advice about driving. It's not difficult once
>> you're on the move. It's starting off that can go wrong. And even if you
>> normally drive with a manual gearbox, get an automatic, or you'll
>> forever be trying to change gear with a shift that isn't where you're
>> groping for it with the wrong hand. The other irritant is the rear-view
>> mirror up at the centre of the windscreen, which is also in the wrong
>> place when you unthinkingly glance up to it. Use the door mirrors.
>>
>

> I agree with all of that. I'd just add that it's not just a matter of
> unfamiliar sides of the road or of instruments in strange places, but
> also the types of roads and the driving culture. Motorways tend to be
> fairly similar, or at least not totally dissimilar, the world over, but
> away from the motorways it's useful to be alert to unspoken, unwritten
> conventions. I'm trying to think of examples, but failing dismally; I
> know I slot back into a different style of driving when I'm in
> small-town Illinois, and then have to re-adjust when I get back to
> Blighty, but I'm dashed if I can put my finger on precise features.

One difference that you'd surely notice between Illinois and Blighty is
that British drivers are a lot more aggressive and less law-abiding
than you expect in most of the USA (apart from places like Boston).
When we were first in France I had to remind myself to be on my best
behaviour when driving in England, but French driving has improved a
lot in 26 years, and British diving has become noticeably worse.


--
athel

[James Silverton]

I was interested in your comment on Boston. It's a view shared by many
Americans (apart from Bostonians).

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Have we really gotten to the point where there's a decision involved
rather than a physical interlock on a directly-coupled control?

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Bullwinkle: You sure that's the
SF Bay Area (1982-) | only way?
Chicago (1964-1982) |Rocky: Well, if you're going to be
| a hero, you've got to do
evan.kir...@gmail.com | stupid things every once in
| a while.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[the Omrud]

For sure. The "gear change" on my (automatic) car is merely a control
switch which tells the computer that I've asked it to do something. The
computer may decide it's a bad idea.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/media/5322760/jaguar_xf__19__629x418.jpg

it's the rotary knob in the centre console.

The parking brake control (the little switch nearer the camera) is just
the same, to the extent that I never have to release it - the computer
does that when I put the car in Drive, which I can only do if I have my
foot on the main brake. If I try to apply the parking brake when
moving, it just beeps at me.

--
David

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

When I did my post-doc in Berkeley 40+ years ago I learned -- as a
pedestrian -- to recognize Massachusetts plates at a distance of 200 m,
as it was necessary for staying alive. One also needed to look out for
New York and New Jersey plates (New York being difficult at that time
as they had a colour scheme similar to that of California.) I have the
impression that in the interim years the West Coast style of driving
has spread over most of the country, though I'm not sure if it's
reached Boston yet.
--
athel

[Mike Barnes]

the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>:

>The "gear change" on my (automatic) car is merely a control switch
>which tells the computer that I've asked it to do something. The
>computer may decide it's a bad idea.
>
>http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/media/5322760/jaguar_xf__19__629x418.jpg
>
>it's the rotary knob in the centre console.
>
>The parking brake control (the little switch nearer the camera) is just
>the same, to the extent that I never have to release it - the computer
>does that when I put the car in Drive, which I can only do if I have my
>foot on the main brake. If I try to apply the parking brake when
>moving, it just beeps at me.

My car looks similar. I've never touched the parking brake, not even to
find out what it does or how it works. Also I don't move the gear
selector to park, because when I turn the engine off, the car does that
for itself. So my exit routine is pretty simple: press start/stop
button, remove belt, open door, get out.

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 13, 3:05 am, Mike Barnes <mikebarnes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>:
> >On May 12, 11:05 am, Mike Barnes <mikebarnes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>:

>
> >> >It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
> >> >this summer. Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
> >> >ers? What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
> >> >in France or Spain?
>

> >> I'll be here - I take my holidays at other times of year.

>
> >> >My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
> >> >used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
> >> >trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
> >> >attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
> >> >side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
> >> >unpleasant. Nobody in my family going on this trip is enthusiastic
> >> >about taking a commercial tour, though. Does anyone have any
> >> >experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
> >> >on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?
>

> >> I can completely understand the lack of enthusiasm for a coach tour.
> >> That's no way to see a country.
>
> >I get the impression one can get around England much better than
> >Ireland on trains and buses, and you definitely see a country if you
> >take public transportation.  On the other hand, you can't stop if you
> >see an interesting bird, even in Britain.
>
> I'd draw a clear distinction between getting around on trains and buses,
> and taking a coach tour. You're more exposed to the country's people on
> public transport than a coach tour (or driving, for that matter).

Yes. I see I didn't say everything I was thinking. In England, I'll
be able to take public transportation a lot, and I think I'd like that
for the reason you mention, but for the trip to Ireland I'll have the
choice between a bus tour and driving myself. (I don't want to give
anything away, but my mother may not be allowed to drive a rental car
in Ireland.)

> >> I've come across many Americans visiting the UK and without exception
> >> they've refused to countenance driving on the wrong side of the road,
> >> especially when they see the roads and the driving style which are
> >> unlike anything they've come across back home.
>
> >Can you explain, or give an example or two, of how the roads and the
> >driving style are different?
>
> Roads: They're generally narrower, more likely to be obstructed by
> roadside parking, and the road markings are quite different. For the UK
> (Ireland being closer to that than what I recall of the USA) take a look
> here:
>
>  http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@...
>
> or for more general reading, the whole highway code:
>
>  https://www.gov.uk/browse/driving/highway-code
>
> Driving: Americans generally comment that people here drive a lot faster
> and with much narrower margins of error.

Thanks. Not my favorite kinds or roads or driving, but I can manage
it.

> Having said that the accident
> rate is actually very low, and your chances of being shot are minimal.

Ahem. I'd describe them as minimal here too, at least if you compare
them to your chances of getting in a serious accident.

> Example: I came across what I believe to be a small but important
> difference between the UK and Ireland. Two cars on a two-lane road and
> they're both approaching a parked car from opposite directions, which
> means that one has to give way. In the UK the unbending rule (and 99%

> practice) is that the driver on the same side as the obstruction gives

> way so as not to even slightly impede the car coming the other way. In
> my experience in Ireland, the driver who got there first assumed
> priority, even if the obstruction was on their side of the road.

In America, at least around here, the person on the same side as the
parked car will occasionally impede the other driver if they're there
first. The more common problem in my experience is both drivers
beckoning the other one on.

> >My brother did say that if you see someone in London who's stuck on a
> >roundabout, you know they're American.
>
> You only get stuck on a roundabout because of a traffic jam or lights.
> Otherwise you keep going round while you make your mind up. Even the
> locals do that.

That may be a comfort.

> >> How "unpleasant" it will
> >> be depends on the skill level and attitude of the driver. But even a
> >> very skilled and well motivated driver will find it hard work if they're
> >> not used to it, because of the intense concentration required.
>
> >> A satnav would be a great help.
>
> >My mother has one, so that's good.
>
> I'd double-check that it has maps for the area concerned. And bring a
> long lead because in some cars the 12V socket is by the driver's elbow.

Thanks, I'll do that.

--
Jerry Friedman

[James Hogg]

Let me just say first that I'm sorry you won't be in Ireland at the end
of June when I'm visiting. And let me point out that, although a rented
car would give you greater freedom as regards where you want to go and
when, buses or coaches will take you to lots of places (between cities,
for example, and to popular tourist attractions) and give you some added
advantages: you can see far more when when you're not driving, and you
sit higher up so there is a sporting chance of being able to see over
the hedges.

--
James

[Mike L]

One daft driving superstition the British have always managed without
is the belief that one can move other vehicles by tooting one's horn.
But I'm now noticing it's starting to happen in Coventry - perhaps
under Indian influence?

--
Mike.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <e745p89oor9acrjai...@4ax.com>,

Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>One daft driving superstition the British have always managed without
>is the belief that one can move other vehicles by tooting one's horn.

I'm not familiar with such a superstition. I have, however, seen
proof that one can by honking cause the drivers of other vehicles to
quit reading their mail and start paying attention to the road.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 12, 3:44 pm, the Omrud <usenet.om...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/05/2013 17:28, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
> > this summer.  Is there any chance of getting together with a.u.e.-
> > ers?  What if it's in the first two weeks of August--will everyone be
> > in France or Spain?
>

> Yep, sorry, I'll be in France.

Fine, be that way then. See how you are?

[Driving in Ireland]

> Many have already commented - my only addition is that there are parts
> of the west of Ireland where standard European pictorial road signs
> disappear and are replaced by text-only signs.  Unfortunately for most
> of us, these are sometimes written only in Gaelic.

Oh, good. To the naive, an area where a widely spoken language is
forbidden might seem like a good one for pictorial signs.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On May 12, 12:07 pm, Tony Cooper <tonycooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 May 2013 09:28:17 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman

>
>
>
>
>
> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >It appears that I may visit Ireland with family and England by myself
> >this summer.

...

> >My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't
> >used to driving there should take bus (sorry, "coach") tours, as
> >trains aren't great, roads aren't marked even if they go to tourist
> >attractions, and between that and driving on the wrong (sorry, "left")
> >side of the road, the experience of driving yourself will be very
> >unpleasant.

...

> I've traveled in Ireland (ROI) three times, and rented a car each
> time.  Never had a problem doing so, and would not consider doing it
> any other way.
...

Thanks for this and all the rest of your advice!

--
Jerry Friedman

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 14/05/2013 15:59, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 13/05/2013 23:27, Robin Bignall wrote:

>>>> Slamming it into "park" while moving? Is that possible?
>>>> (Needless to say, despite a desire to supply test data to AUE,
>>>> I'm not going to try that at home.)
>>>
>>> Me neither, but I strongly suspect my car's computer would ignore an
>>> instruction to switch to Park if the car is moving more than about 1
>>> mph.
>>
>> Have we really gotten to the point where there's a decision involved
>> rather than a physical interlock on a directly-coupled control?
>
> For sure. The "gear change" on my (automatic) car is merely a control
> switch which tells the computer that I've asked it to do something.
> The computer may decide it's a bad idea.
>
> http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/media/5322760/jaguar_xf__19__629x418.jpg
>
> it's the rotary knob in the centre console.

Okay, I haven't seen one like that. What happens if the car dies when
you're in gear? How do you get it into neutral so that you can push
it to the side of the road?

> The parking brake control (the little switch nearer the camera) is
> just the same, to the extent that I never have to release it - the
> computer does that when I put the car in Drive, which I can only do if
> I have my foot on the main brake. If I try to apply the parking brake
> when moving, it just beeps at me.

--

Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Whatever it is that the government
SF Bay Area (1982-) |does, sensible Americans would prefer
Chicago (1964-1982) |that the government do it to somebody
|else.
evan.kir...@gmail.com | P.J. O'Rourke

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

wol...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) writes:

> In article <e745p89oor9acrjai...@4ax.com>,
> Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>One daft driving superstition the British have always managed without
>>is the belief that one can move other vehicles by tooting one's horn.
>
> I'm not familiar with such a superstition. I have, however, seen
> proof that one can by honking cause the drivers of other vehicles to
> quit reading their mail and start paying attention to the road.

The only place I really noticed it was in Manhattan, where drivers
apparently believe that (1) somebody who felt it reasonable to get out
of his car in a traffic lane is going to be encouraged to return by
sheer volume and (2) if there's an unmoving line of thirty cars ahead
of me, clearly all that's required to remind the lead driver to move
is my leaning on my horn.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Pardon him, Theodotus. He is a
SF Bay Area (1982-) |barbarian and thinks that the
Chicago (1964-1982) |customs of his tribe and island are
|the laws of nature.
evan.kir...@gmail.com |
| George Bernard Shaw
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Tony Cooper]

By most Americans - apart from Bostonians - who have driven in Boston.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> writes:

> In message <y5bheh...@gmail.com>

> A long time ago. My 1996 Prism would not allow you to shift into reverse
> while moving forward. I think the 1984 Subaru we had before that also
> had that feature, but I am not positive. I recall in the 70s and 80s
> various teenagers pulling all sorts of weird stunts by dropping an car
> into reverse.

Right. I think that's been standard for a long time. But I always
assumed that that was a physical interlock, not a computer deciding
"This would be a bad idea".

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Never attempt to teach a pig to
SF Bay Area (1982-) |sing; it wastes your time and
Chicago (1964-1982) |annoys the pig.
| Robert Heinlein
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Robert Bannister]

On 15/05/13 7:22 AM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <y5bheh...@gmail.com>
> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A long time ago. My 1996 Prism would not allow you to shift into reverse
> while moving forward. I think the 1984 Subaru we had before that also
> had that feature, but I am not positive. I recall in the 70s and 80s
> various teenagers pulling all sorts of weird stunts by dropping an car
> into reverse.
>

I haven't had to try it recently, but when bogged down in sand, the best
way I know for getting out is to shift rapidly between D and R - not
sure whether my current car allows that.

--
Robert Bannister

[Walter P. Zähl]

Dr Nick <nosp...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
> "Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
>
>> "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:ab448fb6-c772-4d32...@y5g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...

>>
>>> My mother was told that Americans on vacation in Ireland who aren't

>>> used to driving . . . the experience of driving yourself will be very
>>> unpleasant. . . . Does anyone have any

>>> experience with this, especially anyone from a country where you drive
>>> on the right (sorry, "right") side of the road? What if you have GPS?
>>

>> We are used to driving on the other side of the road, familiar with
>> N.America (right), Britain (left), Netherlands (right), Ireland (left) etc.
>> Except only in Dublin and Belfast at rush hour, driving in Ireland is
>> delightful and no strain. I specially recommend the rural west of
>> Ireland, the only place I ever believed in ghosts.
>
> And where some of the most attractive roads are banned to coach traffic.
> The Dingle peninsula for example.

Do try to drive near the middle of the road, though; you'll find (well,
they find you ...) lot of nasty potholes just at the side of the road, even
within towns.
Having come back home after three weeks of "The Green West", I had to get
my car's track readjusted.

But the scenery is beautiful.

/Walter

[the Omrud]

Well, blow me down, mine does the same. I'd never tried switching off
the engine with the selector at Park before.

--
David

[the Omrud]

On 14/05/2013 21:34, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 14/05/2013 15:59, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 13/05/2013 23:27, Robin Bignall wrote:
>
>>>>> Slamming it into "park" while moving? Is that possible?
>>>>> (Needless to say, despite a desire to supply test data to AUE,
>>>>> I'm not going to try that at home.)
>>>>
>>>> Me neither, but I strongly suspect my car's computer would ignore an
>>>> instruction to switch to Park if the car is moving more than about 1
>>>> mph.
>>>
>>> Have we really gotten to the point where there's a decision involved
>>> rather than a physical interlock on a directly-coupled control?
>>
>> For sure. The "gear change" on my (automatic) car is merely a control
>> switch which tells the computer that I've asked it to do something.
>> The computer may decide it's a bad idea.
>>
>> http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/media/5322760/jaguar_xf__19__629x418.jpg
>>
>> it's the rotary knob in the centre console.
>
> Okay, I haven't seen one like that. What happens if the car dies when
> you're in gear? How do you get it into neutral so that you can push
> it to the side of the road?

Dies when in gear? I've never discovered. It weighs getting on for 2
tons, so I'd need some help.

I know from the manual that there's a catch somewhere in the console
which allows you to override the interlocks (*) so that you can move the
gear selector knob. For example, if the solenoid which stops you
putting it into Drive unless you have your foot on the brake has failed.

* I've just realised that neither of the new Star Trek films visits a
holodeck. Mind, I always wondered how they got past Health & Safety
since they seem not to Fail Safe, but to Fail Deadly. We saw the new
film at the IMAX 3D in Manchester at the weekend.

--
David

[the Omrud]

I did, of course, mean "with the selector at Drive". Furrfu.

--
David

[LFS]

On 15/05/2013 10:17, the Omrud wrote:
>
> * I've just realised that neither of the new Star Trek films visits a
> holodeck. Mind, I always wondered how they got past Health & Safety
> since they seem not to Fail Safe, but to Fail Deadly. We saw the new
> film at the IMAX 3D in Manchester at the weekend.
>

Husband and Son saw it at the Waterloo IMAX last night. Husband is still
blinking and rubbing his eyes. Said the effects were impressive but he
could have done without 3D.

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[the Omrud]

I agree that the 3D is not strictly necessary, but it's now being used
quite subtly and it doesn't intrude. Most of the time, you don't really
notice it.

--
David

[Walter P. Zähl]

jgharston <j...@mdfs.net> wrote:

> Mike Barnes wrote:
>> A satnav would be a great help.
>

> Useful for generic route planning, but no substitute for checking an
> actual map for an overview, and actually reading road signs (eg "no
> entry", "unsuitable for motors", "danger - deep ford", etc.)
>
Or telling the difference between a ferry and a bridge ...

/Walter

[Mike Barnes]

the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>:

>the engine with the selector at [Drive] before.

I wouldn't have tried it either, except I read it in the manual, tried
it, and liked it. Of course the manual was all "Be sure to return the
selector to park before switching off the engine" but somewhere in the
small print it revealed that if you don't, it will return automatically.

I have a slight concern over the loss of instincts learned over the
years: take it out of gear/drive, put the handbrake on, lock the doors
(all of them) after leaving.

[Tony Cooper]

On 15 May 2013 07:00:50 GMT, Walter P. Zähl <spams...@zaehl.de>
wrote:

>Do try to drive near the middle of the road, though; you'll find (well,
>they find you ...) lot of nasty potholes just at the side of the road, even
>within towns.
>Having come back home after three weeks of "The Green West", I had to get
>my car's track readjusted.
>
>But the scenery is beautiful.

This was briefly puzzling. The "car's track"? In the US, the
statement would be "I had to get my tires realigned". Tire stores
advertise prices for "alignment".

[musika]

Also known as "tracking" in the UK, at least.

--
Ray UK

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> writes:

> In message <4ne5dr...@gmail.com>

> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> writes:
>
>>> In message <y5bheh...@gmail.com>
>>> Evan Kirshenbaum <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> Me neither, but I strongly suspect my car's computer would
>>>>> ignore an instruction to switch to Park if the car is moving
>>>>> more than about 1 mph.
>>>
>>>> Have we really gotten to the point where there's a decision
>>>> involved rather than a physical interlock on a directly-coupled
>>>> control?
>>>
>>> A long time ago. My 1996 Prism would not allow you to shift into
>>> reverse while moving forward. I think the 1984 Subaru we had
>>> before that also had that feature, but I am not positive. I recall
>>> in the 70s and 80s various teenagers pulling all sorts of weird
>>> stunts by dropping an car into reverse.
>
>> Right. I think that's been standard for a long time. But I always
>> assumed that that was a physical interlock, not a computer deciding
>> "This would be a bad idea".
>

> How is that different?

With a physical interlock, the mechanism is designed such that the act
of moving forward makes it physically impossible to make the request,
usually by moving something in position to block the stick from going
into position. With computer control, you make the request and the
computer decides whether it's reasonable. (There's a middle ground in
which the computer monitors the situation and when it considers it to
be unreasonable places a physical barrier to you making the request.)

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The only man I know who behaves
SF Bay Area (1982-) |sensibly is my tailor; he takes my
Chicago (1964-1982) |measurements anew each time he sees
|me. The rest go on with their old
evan.kir...@gmail.com |measurements and expect me to fit
|them.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
| Shaw, _Man and Superman_

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 14/05/2013 21:34, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 14/05/2013 15:59, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 13/05/2013 23:27, Robin Bignall wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Slamming it into "park" while moving? Is that possible?
>>>>>> (Needless to say, despite a desire to supply test data to AUE,
>>>>>> I'm not going to try that at home.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Me neither, but I strongly suspect my car's computer would ignore an
>>>>> instruction to switch to Park if the car is moving more than about 1
>>>>> mph.
>>>>
>>>> Have we really gotten to the point where there's a decision involved
>>>> rather than a physical interlock on a directly-coupled control?
>>>
>>> For sure. The "gear change" on my (automatic) car is merely a control
>>> switch which tells the computer that I've asked it to do something.
>>> The computer may decide it's a bad idea.
>>>
>>> http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/media/5322760/jaguar_xf__19__629x418.jpg
>>>
>>> it's the rotary knob in the centre console.
>>
>> Okay, I haven't seen one like that. What happens if the car dies when
>> you're in gear? How do you get it into neutral so that you can push
>> it to the side of the road?
>
> Dies when in gear? I've never discovered. It weighs getting on for 2
> tons, so I'd need some help.

Typically at least two people to push and one to ride and steer, in my
experience, although the last car I needed to do it in was probably
closer to a ton and a half. (It died in the left lane, and a nice
police officer stopped traffic and helped me push it over.) I think
it was also that car that simply shut off while I was driving one
day. Luckily, I was going slightly downhill and managed to coast
around the corner and to an open stretch of curb before stopping it.

> I know from the manual that there's a catch somewhere in the console
> which allows you to override the interlocks (*) so that you can move
> the gear selector knob. For example, if the solenoid which stops
> you putting it into Drive unless you have your foot on the brake has
> failed.
>
> * I've just realised that neither of the new Star Trek films visits
> a holodeck. Mind, I always wondered how they got past Health &
> Safety since they seem not to Fail Safe, but to Fail Deadly. We saw
> the new film at the IMAX 3D in Manchester at the weekend.

--

Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |When you rewrite a compiler from
SF Bay Area (1982-) |scratch, you sometimes fix things
Chicago (1964-1982) |you didn't know were broken.
| Larry Wall
evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[the Omrud]

Well, there's another point. It may not be possible to steer the car
without the engine running, at least not when moving very slowly (which
one hopes it would be, if being pushed). The engine is very heavy and
the tyres are more than a quarter of a metre wide.

--
David

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2013-05-15 12:41:06 +0200, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> said:

> On 15/05/2013 11:23, LFS wrote:
>> On 15/05/2013 10:17, the Omrud wrote:
>>>
>>> * I've just realised that neither of the new Star Trek films visits a
>>> holodeck. Mind, I always wondered how they got past Health & Safety
>>> since they seem not to Fail Safe, but to Fail Deadly. We saw the new
>>> film at the IMAX 3D in Manchester at the weekend.
>>
>> Husband and Son saw it at the Waterloo IMAX last night. Husband is still
>> blinking and rubbing his eyes. Said the effects were impressive but he
>> could have done without 3D.
>
> I agree that the 3D is not strictly necessary, but it's now being used
> quite subtly

I thought "subtly" and "3D" were contradictory concepts where films are
concerned. However, I think I've only seen one of the Shreks (with two
granddaughters -- not a film I'd have chosen for my own entertainment).
I didn't seen the House of Wax WIWAL, but I suspect that "subtle" is
not a word that would have applied.

> and it doesn't intrude. Most of the time, you don't really notice it.


--

athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

According to a travel book I was leafing through in Hungary the other
day, 99% of the population of the Irish Republic speak Irish, and only
1% English. Fortunately, however, I think they were mistaken (or I've
only encountered members of the 1%).


--
athel

[R H Draney]

Tony Cooper filted:
>
>On 15 May 2013 07:00:50 GMT, Walter P. Z�hl <spams...@zaehl.de>

>wrote:
>
>>Do try to drive near the middle of the road, though; you'll find (well,
>>they find you ...) lot of nasty potholes just at the side of the road, even
>>within towns.
>>Having come back home after three weeks of "The Green West", I had to get
>>my car's track readjusted.
>>
>>But the scenery is beautiful.
>
>This was briefly puzzling. The "car's track"? In the US, the
>statement would be "I had to get my tires realigned". Tire stores
>advertise prices for "alignment".

As in "I just had my car's alignment checked; turns out it's chaotic evil"....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Adam Funk]

On 2013-05-14, Lewis wrote:

> A long time ago. My 1996 Prism would not allow you to shift into reverse
> while moving forward. I think the 1984 Subaru we had before that also
> had that feature, but I am not positive. I recall in the 70s and 80s
> various teenagers pulling all sorts of weird stunts by dropping an car
> into reverse.

Stunts like dropping parts of the car on the road?


--
Carrots continue to suffer from the jibes of people who like to
dispense what H. W. Fowler called "worn-out humor."
--- Joy of Cooking 1975