Can we say "Good morning, teacher"?
Miss". But canwe say "Good morning, teacher"?
To a college teacher who is not a professor yet, for example, still a
lecturer, how should we call him? Can we say Good morning, Lecturer?"
Troy Steadman
"Good morning, Teacher", is good English. "Good morning, Lecturer?" is
not (for no good reason).
"Good morning, Sir?" or "Good morning, Madam?" will do for teachers and
lecturers alike. "Good morning, Mr Smith," or "Good morning, Ms Jones,"
after you get to know them.
Steve Hayes
Most lecturers I know would be very embarrassed by such a thing (I'm assuming
you mean the whole class chanting it in unison).
--
Terms and conditions apply.
Steve Hayes
haye...@yahoo.com
Matthew Huntbach
> On 12 Oct 2005 23:42:26 -0700, "google" <synta...@163.com> wrote:
>> In many textbooks, we can see "Good morning, Sir" or "Good morning,
>> Miss". But canwe say "Good morning, teacher"?
>>
>> To a college teacher who is not a professor yet, for example, still a
>> lecturer, how should we call him? Can we say Good morning, Lecturer?"
> Most lecturers I know would be very embarrassed by such a thing (I'm assuming
> you mean the whole class chanting it in unison).
Yes, if this still appears in "many textbooks", it's a good example of
how what appears in language textbooks often lags behind what happens
in reality by enough years to cause embarrassment.
In my experience as a university lecturer, standard practice is that
you stand at the front, and the students ignore you and carry on
talking to each other about what they did last night. You let them get
on with this, mostly because you're lucky if the lecture room is even
half full at the time the lecture is supposed to start. After about
five minutes, you decide you can't wait any longer, so you announce in
a loud voice "Right, let's get started" or "Will you lot please shut up
now" or something similar.
Most students when addressing me use my first name. Some (particularly
from overseas) use "Sir". Occasionally it's "Doctor" followed by my
surname, and one or two use just "Doctor".
Matthew Huntbach
Dona...@gmail.com
Troy Steadman wrote:
> google wrote:
> > In many textbooks, we can see "Good morning, Sir" or "Good morning,
> > Miss". But canwe say "Good morning, teacher"?
> >
> > To a college teacher who is not a professor yet, for example, still a
> > lecturer, how should we call him? Can we say Good morning, Lecturer?"
>
> "Good morning, Teacher", is good English. "Good morning, Lecturer?" is
> not (for no good reason).
Obviously, this depends on where you are. In my part of the world, UK
(Southern Division) it would sound mighty odd to address someone as
"teacher". Teaching is a job, one would be "a teacher", but one is not
addressed as "teacher", any more than one would say "Good morning
builder".
Teachers, in my experience are addressed as "sir" or "miss", with
"miss" being used whatever the marital status of the woman teacher.
> "Good morning, Sir?" or "Good morning, Madam?" will do for teachers and
> lecturers alike. "Good morning, Mr Smith," or "Good morning, Ms Jones,"
> after you get to know them.
Lecturers, tend (again, in my experience, although this is based on
experiences in Scotland and England) to be addressed by their first
name or, very occassionally, by title and surname. For example, Dr
Jones or Professor Smith.
Mike Lyle
> Troy Steadman wrote:
>> google wrote:
>>> In many textbooks, we can see "Good morning, Sir" or "Good
morning,
>>> Miss". But canwe say "Good morning, teacher"?
>>>
>> "Good morning, Teacher", is good English. "Good morning,
Lecturer?"
>> is not (for no good reason).
>
> Obviously, this depends on where you are. In my part of the world,
UK
> (Southern Division) it would sound mighty odd to address someone as
Agreed: it would be eccentric to say the least, and might even be
taken as some sort of subtle rudeness.
--
Mike.
Unknown
> In many textbooks, we can see "Good morning, Sir" or "Good morning,
> Miss". But canwe say "Good morning, teacher"?
Speaking as an ESL lecturer, in a University, in an English-speaking
country...
These things depend on the context, where you are studying, and the
level of respect between teacher and student which each side feels
should be shown.
Generally in the UK, people aren't addressed by their occupations
without a name, with some exceptions like Doctor, Nurse, Officer for
Police Officers and of course Professor, so calling a teacher 'Teacher'
sounds strange.
I tell my students to call me by my first name, although I'm aware that
this may feel uncomforatable for some of them. Students sometimes
address me as 'Teacher', which makes *me* feel uncomfortable, though I
don't tell them it's wrong or not to do it. What I do quite like is
what my Greek-speaking students often call me, which is 'Mr
(Firstname)'.
>
> To a college teacher who is not a professor yet, for example, still a
> lecturer, how should we call him? Can we say Good morning, Lecturer?"
For some cultures (like Indonesia) the correct form of address is to
give the person an occupation title one step higher than they actually
hold; so these students would actually call a lecturer 'Professor'.
But don't say 'Good morning, Lecturer' - in most cases your lecturer
would prefer you to use his or her name, whther that's the first name
or Mr/Mrs/Ms ....
DC
Jim Lawton
>google wrote:
>> In many textbooks, we can see "Good morning, Sir" or "Good morning,
>> Miss". But canwe say "Good morning, teacher"?
>>
>> To a college teacher who is not a professor yet, for example, still a
>> lecturer, how should we call him? Can we say Good morning, Lecturer?"
>
>"Good morning, Teacher", is good English. "Good morning, Lecturer?" is
>not (for no good reason).
>
>"Good morning, Sir?" or "Good morning, Madam?"
"Good morning, _Madam_" ? - good grief Troy, do you still wear spats?
--
Jim
the polymoth
TsuiDF
Matthew Huntbach wrote:
> In my experience as a university lecturer, standard practice is that
> you stand at the front, and the students ignore you and carry on
> talking to each other about what they did last night. You let them get
> on with this, mostly because you're lucky if the lecture room is even
> half full at the time the lecture is supposed to start. After about
> five minutes, you decide you can't wait any longer, so you announce in
> a loud voice "Right, let's get started" or "Will you lot please shut up
> now" or something similar.
This was the sort of thing I expected when I started as a lecturer
(mid-life career change), so you can imagine how stunned I was when the
students were almost all on time and you could have heard a pin drop in
the room. They also invariably addressed me as 'Professor' or
'Professor <surname>'. I later compared notes with colleagues and
discovered that this completely unexpected behaviour seemed to be due
to my being then in a sort of oasis of politeness in that regard --
interestingly, it was Oklahoma. Colleagues in similar positions on
both coasts of the US professed to be stunned, since they prepared
themselves for verbal battle most days. It required a whole new set of
techniques to get them to argue -- constructively, of course.
When I taught adults ESL in Taiwan (decades ago), my students called me
'Teacher' (no name appended) in either Chinese or English. No idea
what they do in such situations now.
Apparently there's a pondian difference in the use of 'shut up'. I
grew up thinking it was relatively casual and certainly would have used
it in similar situations to the one Matthew describes. But American
friends and colleagues seem highly offended by it and I've seen
teachers reprimanded for using it to children (also many more decades
ago).
cheers,
Stephanie
in Brussels
Don Phillipson
news:1129187891.6...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> "Good morning, Teacher", is good English. "Good morning, Lecturer?" is
> not (for no good reason).
It is more complicated than that because (1) Greetings are
conventional viz. more ritualized than ordinary language
and (2) these conventions vary in time and place. Many
professions are named in OK greetings (Good morning
Vicar, Good morning Doctor, Good morning Captain) but
not all (you never hear Good morning Lawyer or Good
Morning Accountant).
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Ted Schuerzinger
news:Y9mdnV5DW5Q...@brightview.com:
> What I do quite like is
> what my Greek-speaking students often call me, which is 'Mr
> (Firstname)'.
You're a male Viv? I haven't met one of those in a long time.
As for being called "Mr [given name]", that sounds to me like something
that would have been said by the (usually black) hired domestic help when
referring to the employer's family several generations ago. I distinctly
recall it from both versions of the movie "Imitation of Life", for
example.
--
Ted <fedya at bestweb dot net>
Oh Marge, anyone can miss Canada, all tucked away down there....
--Homer Simpson
Troy Steadman
> Somebody claiming to be "Viv M" <> wrote in
> news:Y9mdnV5DW5Q...@brightview.com:
>
> > What I do quite like is
> > what my Greek-speaking students often call me, which is 'Mr
> > (Firstname)'.
>
> You're a male Viv? I haven't met one of those in a long time.
>
> As for being called "Mr [given name]", that sounds to me like something
> that would have been said by the (usually black) hired domestic help when
> referring to the employer's family several generations ago. I distinctly
> recall it from both versions of the movie "Imitation of Life", for
> example.
I guess Viv Richards will keep Viv male for a while. Val has gone the
way of all Doonicans.
Except for a Valerian who has survived a lifetime of ridicule not far
from here.
Salvatore Volatile
> eksact title is?!! In high school, i NEVA used "sir"/"maam"; I just
> use they names! What wrong wit THAT? "Sir"/"maam" just so
> ass-kissious!!!
I have gathered that addressing pre-tertiary teachers with "sir" or
"ma'am" is a longstanding BrE practice (see, e.g., "To Sir With Love"),
but check with the Omrud. It is pretty much not done in the US, I think
it's fair to say, though in ancient times it may have been.
Young Joey has correctly stated the general AmE practice for
undergraduate college/university situations. I've seen grad student
lecturers addressed by undergraduates as "Professor", but I'd address
such a person by first name, I think.
Evan Kirshenbaum
Typically, the ones that are acceptable are the ones that are used as
titles: "Dr. Brown", "Capt. Reynolds". "Teacher" is sort of an odd
man out here, but interestingly in my son's preschool, it was used as
a title. He had "Teacher Mary" and "Teacher Lisa", etc. When he
moved up to elementary school it became "Mrs. <Lastname>".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Giving money and power to government
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is like giving whiskey and car keys
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |to teenage boys.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Matthew Huntbach
> Matthew Huntbach wrote:
>> Most students when addressing me use my first name. Some (particularly
>> from overseas) use "Sir". Occasionally it's "Doctor" followed by my
>> surname, and one or two use just "Doctor".
> And you just WISHES you was a real doctor!
If you mean by "real doctor" "medical practioner", then no,
I never wanted to go into Medicine. I think it's a pity that
anyone who's good at science tends to get pushed into medicine.
Perosnally, the idea of poking around sick people never appealed
to me at all.
Matthew Huntbach
the Omrud
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 de...@aol.com wrote:
> > Matthew Huntbach wrote:
>
> >> Most students when addressing me use my first name. Some (particularly
> >> from overseas) use "Sir". Occasionally it's "Doctor" followed by my
> >> surname, and one or two use just "Doctor".
>
> > And you just WISHES you was a real doctor!
>
> If you mean by "real doctor" "medical practioner", then no,
> I never wanted to go into Medicine. I think it's a pity that
> anyone who's good at science tends to get pushed into medicine.
That is absolutely not the case in the UK. In any case, there's no
call for pushing - medicine (along with dentistry and veterinary
science) command the highest required results for university entry.
Of course, here, medics choose their path at 18, rather than after a
first degree in Building Technology or Palmistry.
The only way to get into medicine in the UK is to start from the
beginning along with the teenagers. There's no age limit, but you
can't avoid the 6 years training (or is it 5 now?).
> Perosnally, the idea of poking around sick people never appealed
> to me at all.
Quite. Mind, I have a friend who thinks the same, so he's a
consultant anaesthetist. His only contact with sick people is to pop
in and tell them that he's the bloke who will be knocking them out
while they have their heart and lungs replaced.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the
the Omrud
> Generally in the UK, people aren't addressed by their occupations
> without a name, with some exceptions like Doctor, Nurse, Officer for
> Police Officers and of course Professor, so calling a teacher 'Teacher'
> sounds strange.
I was surprised when in Dublin the other month to see a member of the
public trying to attract the attention of a local police officer by
calling "Guard".
the Omrud
> I have gathered that addressing pre-tertiary teachers with "sir" or
> "ma'am" is a longstanding BrE practice (see, e.g., "To Sir With Love"),
> but check with the Omrud. It is pretty much not done in the US, I think
> it's fair to say, though in ancient times it may have been.
Half right. Ma'am is not a term which springs unbidden to the UK
lips unless one is addressing the Queen (who is pronounced "mamm") or
a senior female police or army officer. Female school teachers of
any age and any marital status are addressed as "Miss". However, if
you use their name then they get the appropriate title. So a child
might say, "Please Mrs Volatile, is it time for lunch?". Teacher
replies, "Yes", and child says "Thank you Miss".
"Madam", OTOH, might be used by a person to show respect for somebody
humble, such as a butcher talking to a customer. It's less chummy
than "Luv".
Frances Kemmish
> Matthew Huntbach spake thusly:
>
>
>>On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 de...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>Matthew Huntbach wrote:
>>
>>>>Most students when addressing me use my first name. Some (particularly
>>>>from overseas) use "Sir". Occasionally it's "Doctor" followed by my
>>>>surname, and one or two use just "Doctor".
>>
>>>And you just WISHES you was a real doctor!
>>
>>If you mean by "real doctor" "medical practioner", then no,
>>I never wanted to go into Medicine. I think it's a pity that
>>anyone who's good at science tends to get pushed into medicine.
>
>
> That is absolutely not the case in the UK. In any case, there's no
> call for pushing - medicine (along with dentistry and veterinary
> science) command the highest required results for university entry.
> Of course, here, medics choose their path at 18, rather than after a
> first degree in Building Technology or Palmistry.
>
> The only way to get into medicine in the UK is to start from the
> beginning along with the teenagers. There's no age limit, but you
> can't avoid the 6 years training (or is it 5 now?).
>
That isn't entirely true. The daughter of a friend of ours failed to get
into medical school at eighteen, so she went to Leeds to take a degree
in some other subject - I think it was physiology or anatomical science
or something like that. Anyway, after she graduated, she applied to a
medical school programme that took postgraduates, and was somewhat
shorter than a regular med school course.
Unfortunately, she didn't get into that programme, either, and is now a
student at the University of Geneva Medical School. I don't know how
long that programme is.
Fran
the Omrud
> the Omrud wrote:
>
> > The only way to get into medicine in the UK is to start from the
> > beginning along with the teenagers. There's no age limit, but you
> > can't avoid the 6 years training (or is it 5 now?).
>
> That isn't entirely true. The daughter of a friend of ours failed to get
> into medical school at eighteen, so she went to Leeds to take a degree
> in some other subject - I think it was physiology or anatomical science
> or something like that. Anyway, after she graduated, she applied to a
> medical school programme that took postgraduates, and was somewhat
> shorter than a regular med school course.
You're right - I can see a number of references to such entry places,
but they are very slippery and mostly consist of news items about new
initiatives. One of them seemed to be talking about a forthcoming
postgraduate medical course of four years in place of the normal
five.
But it's difficult to know how they would reduce the course, unless
the applicant had a relevant first degree. A friend of mine, who was
already a qualified dentist, has just finished a further five-year
medical course so that she can be a jaw surgeon (there's some formal
term for this, involving maxilla, I think).
Frances Kemmish
This is the programme that my friend's daughter applied to:
http://www.smd.qmul.ac.uk/undergraduate/graduateentry/index.html
You will see that it is a four-year programme for "graduates in science
and health-related studies". I presume that some of the material is
assumed to be covered in the first degree, but I don't really know.
Fran
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Half right. Ma'am is not a term which springs unbidden to the UK
>lips unless one is addressing the Queen (who is pronounced "mamm") or
>a senior female police or army officer.
In all of the BBC and BBCA offerings, "Ma'am" seems to be one of the
accepted forms of address for a female Inspector or above. I think
"Jane Tennyson" discourages the use of it, though. I also hear "Boss"
quite a bit from one rank to any superior rank in charge. The
personnel in "Red Cap" (who are all non-commissioned) refer to
Sergeant Major Burns as "Boss".
As far as I can tell, US policemen refer to the rank. They would use,
just for example, "Lieutenant", "Loo", "Sargent", or "Sarge". I think
it's the same in the military. I've not heard a gender-based term
(used neutrally) or "Boss".
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Sara Lorimer
> Female school teachers of
> any age and any marital status are addressed as "Miss". However, if
> you use their name then they get the appropriate title. So a child
> might say, "Please Mrs Volatile, is it time for lunch?". Teacher
> replies, "Yes", and child says "Thank you Miss".
At my school in Jamaica we called the teachers "Miss" or "Sir," without
any names. On my first day there we had to practice saying "Good
morning, Miss" -- such complicated business.
--
SML
CDB
<Dona...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129205709.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
[...]
> Obviously, this depends on where you are. In my part of the world,
> UK
> (Southern Division) it would sound mighty odd to address someone as
> "teacher". Teaching is a job, one would be "a teacher", but one is
> not
> addressed as "teacher", any more than one would say "Good morning
> builder".
> Teachers, in my experience are addressed as "sir" or "miss", with
> "miss" being used whatever the marital status of the woman teacher.
[...]
That is interesting. When I came back to Canada in 1957, my fellow
high-school students addressed the female teachers as "Miss", and I
took it to be a Canadian provincialism. I had just spent several
years in the American school in Port-au-Prince, among (U.S.)
Southerners, for the most part, and was in no doubt that teachers were
"Sir" and "Ma'am". We stood up when an adult entered the room, too.
R H Draney
>
>Typically, the ones that are acceptable are the ones that are used as
>titles: "Dr. Brown", "Capt. Reynolds". "Teacher" is sort of an odd
>man out here, but interestingly in my son's preschool, it was used as
>a title. He had "Teacher Mary" and "Teacher Lisa", etc. When he
>moved up to elementary school it became "Mrs. <Lastname>".
One title that's in a sort of limbo is "Reverend"...when I was growing up it was
used in the role of a first name: "sorry, Reverend, but it looks like your
brakes are shot"...it's my understanding that this is more common in the (US)
South and sounds very silly to British ears....
I've never felt compelled to address a governor as "Honorable", but maybe that's
a reaction to the ones who've governed the states I lived in....r
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Frances Kemmish spake thusly:
I would think it to be a maxilliofacial surgeon. Dentists that do
oral surgery sometimes are referred to as oral maxilliofacial
surgeons, but they are DDSs. (Doctor of Dental Surgery) The medical
surgeon that might do jaw procedures would just be a head and neck
surgeon.
When my TMJ problem was acute, I was examined by both a DDS and an MD
as a candidate for mandibular joint surgery.
Ted Schuerzinger
in news:1129214278....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> I guess Viv Richards will keep Viv male for a while. Val has gone the
> way of all Doonicans.
Val Kilmer, anybody?
the Omrud
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:27:36 GMT, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Half right. Ma'am is not a term which springs unbidden to the UK
> >lips unless one is addressing the Queen (who is pronounced "mamm") or
> >a senior female police or army officer.
>
> In all of the BBC and BBCA offerings, "Ma'am" seems to be one of the
> accepted forms of address for a female Inspector or above. I think
> "Jane Tennyson" discourages the use of it, though. I also hear "Boss"
> quite a bit from one rank to any superior rank in charge. The
> personnel in "Red Cap" (who are all non-commissioned) refer to
> Sergeant Major Burns as "Boss".
I am not an expert on police procedure, but I have the feeling that
sergeants are not addressed by constables as "sir", but more usually
as "sarge".
There is also the slightly less formal "Guv".
> As far as I can tell, US policemen refer to the rank. They would use,
> just for example, "Lieutenant", "Loo", "Sargent", or "Sarge". I think
> it's the same in the military. I've not heard a gender-based term
> (used neutrally) or "Boss".
That might be a bit difficult where the rank is "Chief
Superintendent". The villain will have escaped before the superior
officer has been addressed.
Default User
> Young Joey has correctly stated the general AmE practice for
> undergraduate college/university situations. I've seen grad student
> lecturers addressed by undergraduates as "Professor", but I'd address
> such a person by first name, I think.
I disagree that that is the general practice in the US. In the various
colleges and universities that I've attended, "professor" is an actual
title and rank in the system. Only actual professors, be they Assistant
Professor, Associate Professor, or Professor would be addressed that
way. Never ever for lecturers, who tended to be non-doctoral faculty.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Robert Lieblich
>
> "Don Phillipson" <d.phil...@ttrryytteell.com> writes:
>
> > "Troy Steadman" <troyst...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:1129187891.6...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >> "Good morning, Teacher", is good English. "Good morning, Lecturer?"
> >> is not (for no good reason).
> >
> > It is more complicated than that because (1) Greetings are
> > conventional viz. more ritualized than ordinary language and (2)
> > these conventions vary in time and place. Many professions are
> > named in OK greetings (Good morning Vicar, Good morning Doctor, Good
> > morning Captain) but not all (you never hear Good morning Lawyer or
> > Good Morning Accountant).
>
> Typically, the ones that are acceptable are the ones that are used as
> titles: "Dr. Brown", "Capt. Reynolds". "Teacher" is sort of an odd
> man out here, but interestingly in my son's preschool, it was used as
> a title. He had "Teacher Mary" and "Teacher Lisa", etc. When he
> moved up to elementary school it became "Mrs. <Lastname>".
"Captain" is an interesting one. In the US Navy, at least, it can be
inserted into a greeting with no surname following, but only if
addressed to the commanding officer of a Naval vessel. This is true
without regard to the military rank held by that commanding officer.
I spent a day many years ago on an extended introductory tour of a
minesweeper, whose commanding officer held the rank of lieutenant.
Everyone called him "Captain," with no use of surname. But someone
who holds the rank of captain and is not a commanding officer is not
addressed simply as "Captain." His surname must be included, or else
he is addressed as "sir". Strangely, this differentiation is not
applied to "commander," which can be used in a greeting to either an
executive officer or one who holds the rank of commander; either,
"Good morning, Commander" is fine.
An admiral is invariably addressed as "Admiral" without regard to any
command he may or may not hold.
--
Bob Lieblich
Former ensign
Don Phillipson
news:3r7tcsF...@individual.net...
> I disagree that that is the general practice in the US. In the various
> colleges and universities that I've attended, "professor" is an actual
> title and rank in the system. Only actual professors, be they Assistant
> Professor, Associate Professor, or Professor would be addressed that
> way. Never ever for lecturers, who tended to be non-doctoral faculty.
Usage obviously varies between colleges. Where much
undergraduate teaching is done by casually-employed
staff they are usually called Adjunct Professors. I have
never encountered Adjunct Lecturers.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>> As far as I can tell, US policemen refer to the rank. They would use,
>> just for example, "Lieutenant", "Loo", "Sargent", or "Sarge". I think
>> it's the same in the military. I've not heard a gender-based term
>> (used neutrally) or "Boss".
>
>That might be a bit difficult where the rank is "Chief
>Superintendent". The villain will have escaped before the superior
>officer has been addressed.
In our system, a policeman with a rank similar to Chief Inspector is
rarely within sight of a villain unless the villain is disguised as a
television cameraman.
Not that they haven't had their own experiences in dealing with evil
doers when progressing through the ranks. Policing here is a field
where members rise through the ranks rather than starting out at any
high rank through education or connections. The very top boss though,
Police Commissioner, may be a politically appointed office. However,
the current Police Commissioner of New York City is a former police
officer.
I think rising through the ranks is also true in the UK, but I've
never been sure what a Chief Constable is. Net sources say he is the
commanding officer of a police force and wears a uniform with
epaulets.
In the television shows and works of fiction, he seems to be a bad
tempered civilian with the sole function of demanding immediate
results. If one only knows the structure by reading or watching
television, one gets the impression that the Chief Constable has no
function until investigations come to a stand-still and it's time for
him to call Chief Superintendents and give them a right bollocking.
Martin Ambuhl
> In our system, a policeman with a rank similar to Chief Inspector is
> rarely within sight of a villain unless the villain is disguised as a
> television cameraman.
>
> Not that they haven't had their own experiences in dealing with evil
> doers when progressing through the ranks. Policing here is a field
> where members rise through the ranks rather than starting out at any
> high rank through education or connections. The very top boss though,
> Police Commissioner, may be a politically appointed office. However,
> the current Police Commissioner of New York City is a former police
> officer.
[Prelim]
My grandfather started by running for City Clerk in Indianapolis (lying
about his age to do it), capitalizing on the Republican Party and police
connections he had, largely derived from his father's being the main
blacksmith used by the police. After serving a term as City Clerk, he
joined the force as a foot patrolman. Eventually he worked his way to
captain, the highest merit-based rank in the force. In the early 1950s
his Republican connections came in handy again, leading to his becoming
appointed Police Chief (and was president of the International
Association of Police Chiefs). Some of his achievements were not
welcomed: he introduced radar guns to trap speeders and installed seat
belts in patrol cars long before anyone had heard of Ralph Nader. The
main tasks he set himself, however, were more popular: reigning in
various vigilante groups (usually made up of people who failed to become
policemen) and controlling the clan. These were important in his later
career as a City Councilman.
[ObThread]
Never did I hear any policman address him other than as "Captain" (no
surname), even when he was Chief of Police or when he was a City Councilman.
the Omrud
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:23:54 GMT, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> As far as I can tell, US policemen refer to the rank. They would use,
> >> just for example, "Lieutenant", "Loo", "Sargent", or "Sarge". I think
> >> it's the same in the military. I've not heard a gender-based term
> >> (used neutrally) or "Boss".
> >
> >That might be a bit difficult where the rank is "Chief
> >Superintendent". The villain will have escaped before the superior
> >officer has been addressed.
>
> In our system, a policeman with a rank similar to Chief Inspector is
> rarely within sight of a villain unless the villain is disguised as a
> television cameraman.
>
> Not that they haven't had their own experiences in dealing with evil
> doers when progressing through the ranks. Policing here is a field
> where members rise through the ranks rather than starting out at any
> high rank through education or connections. The very top boss though,
> Police Commissioner, may be a politically appointed office. However,
> the current Police Commissioner of New York City is a former police
> officer.
>
> I think rising through the ranks is also true in the UK,
Yes. All UK police officers start at the bottom with at least a
couple of years as a uniformed constable. Some are admitted on a
fast track scheme, mostly for graduates I think, which guides them
through the rank rising, but there is no admittance higher up the
scale.
> but I've
> never been sure what a Chief Constable is. Net sources say he is the
> commanding officer of a police force and wears a uniform with
> epaulets.
The CC is the most senior police officer in a "Force". There are a
few tens of forces in the UK, of which the Metropolitan (I.e.
London) is the largest with more than 30,000 officers and the
smallest have a couple of thousand officers. My own area, Cheshire,
has one of the smaller forces - there are no large cities in
Cheshire. Or even any large towns. In fact the only city is half
the size of the only large town.
The government recently announced that it wishes to amalgamate forces
to do away with the small ones (fewer than 4000 officers).
Unfortunately, this can only mean that the Cheshire force will be
swallowed up by either the Manchester or Merseyside force, which will
change its character.
> In the television shows and works of fiction, he seems to be a bad
> tempered civilian with the sole function of demanding immediate
> results. If one only knows the structure by reading or watching
> television, one gets the impression that the Chief Constable has no
> function until investigations come to a stand-still and it's time for
> him to call Chief Superintendents and give them a right bollocking.
Absolutely and definitely not a civilian, although he (I don't think
there are any women yet, although there are women Deputy CCs) may
frequently be seen in an expensive suit rather than a uniform.
The CC of the Northern Ireland Police is the brother of my children's
French teacher. He is nothing like the type you describe above,
being young and hands-on; he can frequently be heard on the radio
telling it like it is.
William
> There are a
> few tens of forces in the UK,
According to Radio-4 the other day, there are 43 police forces in the
UK.
> of which the Metropolitan (I.e.
> London) is the largest with more than 30,000 officers and the
> smallest have a couple of thousand officers.
Again, R-4 said that Leicestershire is the smallest, with just over
1,000 officers.
> Absolutely and definitely not a civilian, although he (I don't think
> there are any women yet
Oh yes, there are (is?). See:
http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/v3/about/chief/index.htm
--
WH
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>> In the television shows and works of fiction, he seems to be a bad
>> tempered civilian with the sole function of demanding immediate
>> results. If one only knows the structure by reading or watching
>> television, one gets the impression that the Chief Constable has no
>> function until investigations come to a stand-still and it's time for
>> him to call Chief Superintendents and give them a right bollocking.
>
>Absolutely and definitely not a civilian, although he (I don't think
>there are any women yet, although there are women Deputy CCs) may
>frequently be seen in an expensive suit rather than a uniform.
I think it's that they are in suits in the films. You'd think they'd
ask their bespokes to put some velcro on the shoulders so they could
slap on the epaulets. If I was entitled to epaulets, I'd never leave
home without them.
Tony Cooper
<mam...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>My grandfather started by running for City Clerk in Indianapolis (lying
>about his age to do it), capitalizing on the Republican Party and police
>connections he had, largely derived from his father's being the main
>blacksmith used by the police. After serving a term as City Clerk, he
>joined the force as a foot patrolman.
The father of my best friend in high school and college was the Marion
County Clerk. I don't know when he was elected, but I know he was MCC
in the mid-50s. That was an important position because the MCC
controlled more patronage jobs in Marion County (Indianapolis) than
any other office. He was a Republican. I don't think Indianapolis
had a City Clerk in the mid-50s. I think the Marion County Clerk was
the only Clerk's office.
> Eventually he worked his way to
>captain, the highest merit-based rank in the force. In the early 1950s
>his Republican connections came in handy again, leading to his becoming
>appointed Police Chief (and was president of the International
>Association of Police Chiefs). Some of his achievements were not
>welcomed: he introduced radar guns to trap speeders
I remember radar guns being tested sometime in the 50s. They were
using a stretch of Highway 40 west of Indianapolis around Plainfield.
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>Salvatore Volatile wrote:
>
>
>> Young Joey has correctly stated the general AmE practice for
>> undergraduate college/university situations. I've seen grad student
>> lecturers addressed by undergraduates as "Professor", but I'd address
>> such a person by first name, I think.
>
>I disagree that that is the general practice in the US. In the various
>colleges and universities that I've attended, "professor" is an actual
>title and rank in the system. Only actual professors, be they Assistant
>Professor, Associate Professor, or Professor would be addressed that
>way. Never ever for lecturers, who tended to be non-doctoral faculty.
>
I really didn't know the status of those that taught me in
undergraduate studies at Indiana University. We addressed anyone that
taught as "Professor" unless they specified something different. The
graduate assistants always made a point of specifying that they were
Mr Jones or John, but sometimes it just never came up.
In high school, it was always Mr, Mrs, or Miss. I could not have
imagined calling a teacher by first name. My track coach, Mordie Lee,
was called Mordie by all. Though he taught some courses, I never had
a course where he was the teacher. I think I would have called him Mr
Lee in a classroom.
John Dean
I accompanied a school party as token male adult alongside several women
teachers. Some of the children occasionally addressed me as "Miss",
seeming to see it as an all-purpose form of address to an adult in
authority.
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
> Tony Cooper spake thusly:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:27:36 GMT, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Half right. Ma'am is not a term which springs unbidden to the UK
>>> lips unless one is addressing the Queen (who is pronounced "mamm")
>>> or a senior female police or army officer.
>>
>> In all of the BBC and BBCA offerings, "Ma'am" seems to be one of the
>> accepted forms of address for a female Inspector or above. I think
>> "Jane Tennyson" discourages the use of it, though. I also hear
>> "Boss" quite a bit from one rank to any superior rank in charge. The
>> personnel in "Red Cap" (who are all non-commissioned) refer to
>> Sergeant Major Burns as "Boss".
>
> I am not an expert on police procedure, but I have the feeling that
> sergeants are not addressed by constables as "sir", but more usually
> as "sarge".
>
> There is also the slightly less formal "Guv".
"Guv" aka "Governor" is for Inspectors or above. Sergeants are "skip" or
"skipper".
--
John Dean
Oxford
Don Aitken
wrote:
[Chief Constables]
>Absolutely and definitely not a civilian, although he (I don't think
>there are any women yet, although there are women Deputy CCs) may
>frequently be seen in an expensive suit rather than a uniform.
>
There have been a number of women. The first was Elizabeth Nneville,
in Wiltshire, appointed in 1997 and now retired.
It was usual, when Agatha Christie and her like were writing, for CCs
to be appointed from outside the police service - retired military
officers were much favored. The more slapdash kind of crime fiction
perpetuates that stereotype, although it is a good many years since
anyone without a proper police career behind them was considered for
the job.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
John Dean
There was a good TV series about a Chief Constable called, er, "The
Chief". Started out with Tim Piggott-Smith as the top man and switched
to Martin Shaw after the first series or two. You'll find Chief Cons may
wear uniform or civvies, depending on the occasion.
Their role is more political than anything else - they act in relation
to their force rather like Ministers do to Ministries here. The buck
stops there and he has overall direction of training, policy and stuff.
In days of yore (certainly pre WW2 and I would hazard a guess into the
50s and early 60s) the Chief might well be taken from civvie street -
often a former military officer. So period detective drama might well
feature some crusty type in tweeds stamping around with many a "doncha
know" and "blasted chap".
http://www.rjerrard.co.uk/law/ashgate/ashgate2.htm contains a review of
a work about CCs. "By examination the selection policies of police
authorities during the past century and a half, it provides an
explanation of the contrast that is found between the picture at
yesterday's chief constable as an ex-military, tweed suit wearing friend
of the local aristocracy and technocratic managerial image of the Chief
Constables today."
and from the book
"The Old Way
Driving a one morning with him to Shipley Lane end, a favourite 'meet',
he said "How would the constableship of the county suit you"? He had
held the appointment himself before succeeding to a fortune. "Nothing in
the world", I replied "would suit me better". "Well" be continued, "I
think that may be arranged Allgood has completely broken down and can't
last long now" Sir Henry Smith, K.C.B., 1910: 82."
And a review of a similar work by the same author at
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/law/ccjs/an_reps/anrep97d.htm says:
"... this principle of local control remained unchanged until after the
First World War. This was a period when the management of the police was
a very local and amateurish affair. In fact the chief constables were
themselves little more than 'gifted amateurs', and in many cases not so
gifted. The fifty-five or so county chief constables tended to be
ex-military officers whilst many, but by no means all, of the 120 or so
borough chiefs tended to be police officers. What the two groups of
police chiefs had in common was the fact that they were not so much
appointed for their management abilities as their personal
trustworthiness. The county chiefs were appointed mainly because they
shared a similar social position and outlook to the county police
authority, and the borough chiefs because they would do what the watch
committee would instruct them to do. Such considerations are reflected
in their inclusion in Who's Who or other contemporary elite directories.
They were included because of who rather than what they were. In 1906,
for example, 82 per cent of county chief constables in office that year
had an entry, compared with 6 per cent of borough chiefs."
A mate of mine in the Greater Manchester Police Violence I beg your
pardon that should read force was a Detective Sergeant who was summoned
before the Chief Constable of the day (one James Anderton, a happy
clappy eccentric who terrified the law abiding as much as he did the
criminal) for a disciplinary issue which could only be resolved at that
level. After having his fortune told in no uncertain terms by Anderton
he was invited to respond. He always insisted that he said "Well Sir, it
seems we have something in common." "What's that?" asked Anderton.
"We've both gone as far as we're likely to go in this Force."
--
John Dean
Oxford
Don Aitken
wrote:
>the Omrud wrote:
>> There are a
>> few tens of forces in the UK,
>
>According to Radio-4 the other day, there are 43 police forces in the
>UK.
>
>> of which the Metropolitan (I.e.
>> London) is the largest with more than 30,000 officers and the
>> smallest have a couple of thousand officers.
>
>Again, R-4 said that Leicestershire is the smallest, with just over
>1,000 officers.
>
In that case, the Leicestershire force must have shrunk since 1994,
when its authorised establishment was 1,853. I believe all forces have
actually increased in size since then.
The figure for Cheshire was 1,920, but Bedfordshire, at 1,178 was
smaller than either. The smallest territorial force in England was the
City of London, with 877, although that is soemthing of a special
case. Several Scottish forces had less than 1,000 officers, the
smallest being Dumfries & Galloway, with 384.
Some of the "non-territorial" forces are much smaller than that; the
Falmouth Docks Police had an authorised strenth of nine.
William
> >1,000 officers.
> >
> In that case, the Leicestershire force must have shrunk since 1994,
> when its authorised establishment was 1,853.
I see their web-site states "more than 2,200 officers". Either I
misheard, or Radio-4 got it wrong.
http://www.leics.police.uk/careers/
--
WH
Tony Cooper
wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:43:10 GMT, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>[Chief Constables]
>
>>Absolutely and definitely not a civilian, although he (I don't think
>>there are any women yet, although there are women Deputy CCs) may
>>frequently be seen in an expensive suit rather than a uniform.
>>
>There have been a number of women. The first was Elizabeth Nneville,
>in Wiltshire, appointed in 1997 and now retired.
>
>It was usual, when Agatha Christie and her like were writing, for CCs
>to be appointed from outside the police service - retired military
>officers were much favored. The more slapdash kind of crime fiction
>perpetuates that stereotype, although it is a good many years since
>anyone without a proper police career behind them was considered for
>the job.
Hmmmph. I'll have you know that I am much more discerning about my
bedside reading than "slapdash" crime fiction. I think I started with
J J Marric's "Gideon" series. Later I read something by John Creasy
and thought that he was almost as good as Marric as a writer. It was
sometime after that before the penny dropped.
The English crime novel has changed over the years. It used to be
that the reader could settle in for a good read about a Detective
Superintendent who was on holiday in some bucolic village and came
across a death by coshing or summat. He'd immediately organize a
crime room, link up with a local constable or two, and set about
finding out the village's secrets. The DI would solve the crime
neatly and have a few days left on his holiday to take his wife for
tramps on the moors or hills or fens or antique shoppe rows.
The reader would know a great deal about the deceased as a person, but
very little about the deceased's condition in death. The killer was
usually someone with a long-standing grudge and, possibly, a Webley in
the attic that his great-uncle had brought back from some distant war.
In the current crime novels, the deceased is usually discovered in
bits and pieces that must be reassembled and examined by a forensic
pathologist for trace elements of oil stains and millet seeds. We
learn very little about the deceased prior to his or her status as
deceased, but a great deal about the absence or presence of defense
wounds and ligature marks.
The killer is invariably barking mad, but extremely clever and
inclined to bait the police by planting small dolls made of yarn or
reproductions of John Singer Sargent paintings that provide
significant clues if the plods are capable of sussing out the import.
Despite the fact that the techniques never, ever, work in these
novels, the police conduct exhaustive door-to-door enquiries and
schedule appearances on Crime Line television shows. The latter is
important because it turns up false leads that can easily take up a
chapter or six.
Almost-too-late brainstorms provide the key to the investigation.
They coincide with the killer's abduction of the latest victim and
require a desperate dash to the scene where the killer is about to
separate the victim from his or her skin or dice up the body for
Lancanshire Hotpot ingredients.
Salvatore Volatile
> in Marion County (Indianapolis)
Oy! This was before Dick Lugar and "Unigov", Coop!
Laura F. Spira
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> On 12 Oct 2005 23:42:26 -0700, "google" <synta...@163.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> In many textbooks, we can see "Good morning, Sir" or "Good morning,
>>> Miss". But canwe say "Good morning, teacher"?
>>>
>>> To a college teacher who is not a professor yet, for example, still a
>>> lecturer, how should we call him? Can we say Good morning, Lecturer?"
>
>
>> Most lecturers I know would be very embarrassed by such a thing (I'm
>> assuming
>> you mean the whole class chanting it in unison).
>
>
> Yes, if this still appears in "many textbooks", it's a good example of
> how what appears in language textbooks often lags behind what happens
> in reality by enough years to cause embarrassment.
>
> In my experience as a university lecturer, standard practice is that
> you stand at the front, and the students ignore you and carry on
> talking to each other about what they did last night. You let them get
> on with this, mostly because you're lucky if the lecture room is even
> half full at the time the lecture is supposed to start. After about
> five minutes, you decide you can't wait any longer, so you announce in
> a loud voice "Right, let's get started" or "Will you lot please shut up
> now" or something similar.
I'd say this is typical of groups where students from the UK and
continental Europe dominate. Where Chinese or Thai students are in the
majority the group tends to be far more respectful.
>
> Most students when addressing me use my first name. Some (particularly
> from overseas) use "Sir". Occasionally it's "Doctor" followed by my
> surname, and one or two use just "Doctor".
Generally, UK students automatically use my first name. International
students often find this surprising and some, even when invited to do
so, clearly feel uncomfortable with it. The default seems to be
Professor Laura or Doctor Laura. I suspect that they don't always
realise that Laura is my first name rather than my surname.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Laura F. Spira
> the Omrud wrote:
>
>> Frances Kemmish spake thusly:
>>
>>> the Omrud wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The only way to get into medicine in the UK is to start from the
>>>> beginning along with the teenagers. There's no age limit, but you
>>>> can't avoid the 6 years training (or is it 5 now?).
>>>
>>>
>>> That isn't entirely true. The daughter of a friend of ours failed to
>>> get into medical school at eighteen, so she went to Leeds to take a
>>> degree in some other subject - I think it was physiology or
>>> anatomical science or something like that. Anyway, after she
>>> graduated, she applied to a medical school programme that took
>>> postgraduates, and was somewhat shorter than a regular med school
>>> course.
>>
>>
>>
>> You're right - I can see a number of references to such entry places,
>> but they are very slippery and mostly consist of news items about new
>> initiatives. One of them seemed to be talking about a forthcoming
>> postgraduate medical course of four years in place of the normal five.
>>
>> But it's difficult to know how they would reduce the course, unless
>> the applicant had a relevant first degree. A friend of mine, who was
>> already a qualified dentist, has just finished a further five-year
>> medical course so that she can be a jaw surgeon (there's some formal
>> term for this, involving maxilla, I think).
>>
>
> This is the programme that my friend's daughter applied to:
>
> http://www.smd.qmul.ac.uk/undergraduate/graduateentry/index.html
>
> You will see that it is a four-year programme for "graduates in science
> and health-related studies". I presume that some of the material is
> assumed to be covered in the first degree, but I don't really know.
>
Which is, with a curious sort of thread synchronicity, associated with
Matthew's place of work.
Tony Cooper
No OY! is appropriate. The office of Marion County Clerk was
established long before Lugar was Mayor. His office was in what I
think was called then called the City/County Building. Lugar's
changes involved other aspects of consolidating the various functions
of the different local governments within Marion County.
Charles Riggs
Interesting, and kudos for your ear, Bob. I've always followed the
conventions you describe, not really thinking about them or about the
reasons why, not that, other than convention, there are any.
I believe that "Good morning, Lieutenant", "Good morning, Ensign", and
"Good morning, Chief" (a more distinguished rank than ensign, it
should be noted) are also fine.
>An admiral is invariably addressed as "Admiral" without regard to any
>command he may or may not hold.
A slight bow in his direction is also in order.
--
Charles Riggs
the Omrud
> A mate of mine in the Greater Manchester Police Violence I beg your
> pardon that should read force was a Detective Sergeant who was summoned
> before the Chief Constable of the day (one James Anderton, a happy
> clappy eccentric who terrified the law abiding as much as he did the
> criminal) for a disciplinary issue which could only be resolved at that
> level. After having his fortune told in no uncertain terms by Anderton
> he was invited to respond. He always insisted that he said "Well Sir, it
> seems we have something in common." "What's that?" asked Anderton.
> "We've both gone as far as we're likely to go in this Force."
Ah, James Anderton. Those were the days. I doubt that any ordinary
folk now know the name of the Manchester CC, but Mr Anderton was a
real local celebrity who could not be ignored, not least because of
his claim that he discussed things with God. And I don't know if he
was implicated, but the badly treated Stalker was his Deputy CC. You
wait ages for an interesting senior policeman and then two come along
at once.
I saw a performance of "The Threepenny Opera" in the city at the time
- one policeman said to another, while arresting one of the villains,
"Put the cuffs on him, Anderton". Got a huge laugh; can't imagine
that today.
Jim Lawton
>Tony Cooper spake thusly:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:27:36 GMT, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Half right. Ma'am is not a term which springs unbidden to the UK
>> >lips unless one is addressing the Queen (who is pronounced "mamm") or
>> >a senior female police or army officer.
>>
>> In all of the BBC and BBCA offerings, "Ma'am" seems to be one of the
>> accepted forms of address for a female Inspector or above. I think
>> "Jane Tennyson" discourages the use of it, though. I also hear "Boss"
>> quite a bit from one rank to any superior rank in charge. The
>> personnel in "Red Cap" (who are all non-commissioned) refer to
>> Sergeant Major Burns as "Boss".
>
>I am not an expert on police procedure, but I have the feeling that
>sergeants are not addressed by constables as "sir", but more usually
>as "sarge".
As in the Army (talking UK here), where only a commission, or being a
"warrant-officer" (Sergeant-Major or equivalent) gets you the "Sir" or "Ma'am".
All lower ranking NCOs are addressed by there rank, formally in full, casually
in some abbreviated form. Except Staff-Sergeants, who get "Staff". OK, it's a
minefield.
While we are at it, no one in the English armed forces salutes when not wearing
their head-gear. Seeing the President do it in the US makes him look appallingly
gauche, even though for him it is perfectly correct.
>
>There is also the slightly less formal "Guv".
>
>> As far as I can tell, US policemen refer to the rank. They would use,
>> just for example, "Lieutenant", "Loo", "Sargent", or "Sarge". I think
>> it's the same in the military. I've not heard a gender-based term
>> (used neutrally) or "Boss".
>
>That might be a bit difficult where the rank is "Chief
>Superintendent". The villain will have escaped before the superior
>officer has been addressed.
--
Jim
the polymoth
the Omrud
> While we are at it, no one in the English armed forces salutes when not wearing
> their head-gear. Seeing the President do it in the US makes him look appallingly
> gauche, even though for him it is perfectly correct.
Cor. Does England have an army? Let's invade those truculent Scots!
Matthew Huntbach
> Matthew Huntbach spake thusly:
>>>> Most students when addressing me use my first name. Some (particularly
>>>> from overseas) use "Sir". Occasionally it's "Doctor" followed by my
>>>> surname, and one or two use just "Doctor".
>>> And you just WISHES you was a real doctor!
>> If you mean by "real doctor" "medical practioner", then no,
>> I never wanted to go into Medicine. I think it's a pity that
>> anyone who's good at science tends to get pushed into medicine.
> That is absolutely not the case in the UK. In any case, there's no
> call for pushing - medicine (along with dentistry and veterinary
> science) command the highest required results for university entry.
Well, yes, but that's the point - because most people who are good
at science tend to get pushed into Medicine, Medicine departments
in universities can demand the highest grades for entry, while all
other science and engineering departments have to settle for much
lower grades. There has been quite a big programme of closures of
science and engineering departments (Civil Engineering went years
ago where I work, and Chemistry went recently) because once
Medicine's snapped up the best science A-level students, there aren't
enough left to go round everyone else. And many of the science and
engineering departments fill up by putting on "medically related"
degrees, with an aim to capture those students who were pushed into
Medicine but didn't get the grades.
I can assure you, having worked in university admissions for many years,
the push into Medicine is a huge factor, particularly amongst many
ethnic minority communities. In my subject (Computer Science), a
common phenomenon is the student who didn't want to become a Medic
but got pushed into it by their families. I get several applications
like this every year - sometimes they've started the Medicine degree
and dropped out and admit they never wanted to do it in the first
place. Sometime when they really didn't want to do Medicine, their
family has disowned them for not doing it - I mean literally, I have
had several cases of students who are living with friends because
their family have thrown them out for not wanting to do Medicine.
Matthew Huntbach
the Omrud
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, the Omrud wrote:
> > Matthew Huntbach spake thusly:
> >> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 de...@aol.com wrote:
> >>> Matthew Huntbach wrote:
>
> >>>> Most students when addressing me use my first name. Some (particularly
> >>>> from overseas) use "Sir". Occasionally it's "Doctor" followed by my
> >>>> surname, and one or two use just "Doctor".
>
> >>> And you just WISHES you was a real doctor!
>
> >> If you mean by "real doctor" "medical practioner", then no,
> >> I never wanted to go into Medicine. I think it's a pity that
> >> anyone who's good at science tends to get pushed into medicine.
>
> > That is absolutely not the case in the UK. In any case, there's no
> > call for pushing - medicine (along with dentistry and veterinary
> > science) command the highest required results for university entry.
>
> Well, yes, but that's the point - because most people who are good
> at science tend to get pushed into Medicine, Medicine departments
> in universities can demand the highest grades for entry, while all
> other science and engineering departments have to settle for much
> lower grades.
Some do, but there are certainly some which don't. Warwick, Durham,
Imperial - these all have Engineering and Physics requirements of
AAB. That's after discounting Cambridge.
> There has been quite a big programme of closures of
> science and engineering departments (Civil Engineering went years
> ago where I work, and Chemistry went recently) because once
> Medicine's snapped up the best science A-level students, there aren't
> enough left to go round everyone else. And many of the science and
> engineering departments fill up by putting on "medically related"
> degrees, with an aim to capture those students who were pushed into
> Medicine but didn't get the grades.
>
> I can assure you, having worked in university admissions for many years,
> the push into Medicine is a huge factor, particularly amongst many
> ethnic minority communities. In my subject (Computer Science), a
> common phenomenon is the student who didn't want to become a Medic
> but got pushed into it by their families. I get several applications
> like this every year - sometimes they've started the Medicine degree
> and dropped out and admit they never wanted to do it in the first
> place. Sometime when they really didn't want to do Medicine, their
> family has disowned them for not doing it - I mean literally, I have
> had several cases of students who are living with friends because
> their family have thrown them out for not wanting to do Medicine.
I accept your experience, but having children of university age, I'm
not aware of any of their science-focussed friends being encouraged
to follow any specific path. Daughter is studying Civil Engineering;
the children of two friends who are both GPs are studying Physics,
many other local children went to study Chemistry, Maths, Engineering
and other science areas. I don't think I know of more than one or two
of Daughter's friends who are studying medicine.
Who would be doing this pushing? In the example you give above, it's
families, but I don't believe I've ever seen it happen. Wife,
teaching Maths at 6th Form college, doesn't see it either.
John Dean
> On 13 Oct 2005 14:55:24 -0700, "William" <wil...@lowerknowle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> the Omrud wrote:
>>> There are a
>>> few tens of forces in the UK,
>>
>> According to Radio-4 the other day, there are 43 police forces in the
>> UK.
>>
>>> of which the Metropolitan (I.e.
>>> London) is the largest with more than 30,000 officers and the
>>> smallest have a couple of thousand officers.
>>
>> Again, R-4 said that Leicestershire is the smallest, with just over
>> 1,000 officers.
>>
> In that case, the Leicestershire force must have shrunk since 1994,
> when its authorised establishment was 1,853. I believe all forces have
> actually increased in size since then.
Only in the Labour Party manifesto. Certainly all *complements* have
increased.
--
John Dean
Oxford
John Dean
In KFC yesterday and the next table had a bunch of Far East students
beavering away at their bulky folders. I noticed one was labouring at a
work sheet headed "Assets and Liabilities" and wondered if they were any
of yours. You get any homework today with a faint chickeny smell about
it?
--
John Dean
Oxford
Mike Page
I grant that medicine is highly competitive and there are people who
get pushed into it - medical families seem to find it hard to conceive
of any other kind of employment and, as you say, doctoring is regarded
as the pinnacle of ambition by some groups. However the status and
relative remuneration of doctors is falling rapidly and my feeling is
that the upper middle classes, as ever attuned to status and the fast
buck, do not regard it as highly as they once did. Science never was
so regarded - the proportion of students from public schools going
into science was always lower than the proportion from state schools.
What do posh kids do now? I'm not sure. Their range of subjects is
probably more diffuse than it once was. Some of them may even do
business studies and accounting.
Mike Page
Laura F. Spira
"My son the doctor" is now probably "My daughter the doctor" judging by
the number of female Jewish medical students I have encountered this week.
In my subject (Computer Science), a
>>common phenomenon is the student who didn't want to become a Medic
>>but got pushed into it by their families. I get several applications
>>like this every year - sometimes they've started the Medicine degree
>>and dropped out and admit they never wanted to do it in the first
>>place. Sometime when they really didn't want to do Medicine, their
>>family has disowned them for not doing it - I mean literally, I have
>>had several cases of students who are living with friends because
>>their family have thrown them out for not wanting to do Medicine.
>>
>
> I grant that medicine is highly competitive and there are people who
> get pushed into it - medical families seem to find it hard to conceive
> of any other kind of employment and, as you say, doctoring is regarded
> as the pinnacle of ambition by some groups. However the status and
> relative remuneration of doctors is falling rapidly and my feeling is
> that the upper middle classes, as ever attuned to status and the fast
> buck, do not regard it as highly as they once did. Science never was
> so regarded - the proportion of students from public schools going
> into science was always lower than the proportion from state schools.
>
> What do posh kids do now? I'm not sure. Their range of subjects is
> probably more diffuse than it once was. Some of them may even do
> business studies and accounting.
We have a lot of them at OBU, and in consequence severe problems with
widening access. In the Business School not many do acccounting but lots
of them do marketing. And Hotel Management which they like until they
have to do the menial tasks like waiting on table. They also do
publishing and lots of arty courses. Former posh students include the
PoW's step-daughter.
Sara Lorimer
> The English crime novel has changed over the years. It used to be
> that the reader could settle in for a good read about a Detective
> Superintendent who was on holiday in some bucolic village and came
> across a death by coshing or summat. He'd immediately organize a
> crime room, link up with a local constable or two, and set about
> finding out the village's secrets. The DI would solve the crime
> neatly and have a few days left on his holiday to take his wife for
> tramps on the moors or hills or fens or antique shoppe rows.
...unless he's single, in which case he's visiting his elderly (but
capable) aunt. He notices any attractive local women, especially those
who work in pubs, but does not act on any of their flirting.
--
SML
the Omrud
> The English crime novel has changed over the years. It used to be
> that the reader could settle in for a good read about a Detective
> Superintendent who was on holiday in some bucolic village and came
> across a death by coshing or summat. He'd immediately organize a
> crime room, link up with a local constable or two, and set about
> finding out the village's secrets. The DI would solve the crime
> neatly and have a few days left on his holiday to take his wife for
> tramps on the moors or hills or fens or antique shoppe rows.
I've often wondered why tramps hang out on the moors.
Ross Howard
(Sara Lorimer) wrought:
You read that one too? The pushy bloke with the Range Rover who ran
the gardening centre did it, right?
--
Ross Howard
Ross Howard
wrought:
>Tony Cooper spake thusly:
>
>> The English crime novel has changed over the years.
>>[...] The DI would solve the crime
>> neatly and have a few days left on his holiday to take his wife for
>> tramps on the moors or hills or fens or antique shoppe rows.
>
>I've often wondered why tramps hang out on the moors.
Because they're there.
--
Ross Howard
Salvatore Volatile
> What do posh kids do now? I'm not sure. Their range of subjects is
> probably more diffuse than it once was. Some of them may even do
> business studies and accounting.
Heck, some of them might even be doing journalism studies!
Mike Page
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>Mike Page wrote:
>
[snipped comment about ratio of female to male medical students]
It's true. There used to be an unofficial quota in favour of men on
the grounds that 'boys mature later', but most of my daughter's
co-students are women. It's a sad fact that professions that are
predominantly female generally do not enjoy high status; so that is
another reason to suppose the status of doctors may be declining.
But what do all the high-flying men do? (I've two daughters who'd like
to know.)
...>>
>> I grant that medicine is highly competitive and there are people who
>> get pushed into it - medical families seem to find it hard to conceive
>> of any other kind of employment and, as you say, doctoring is regarded
>> as the pinnacle of ambition by some groups. However the status and
>> relative remuneration of doctors is falling rapidly and my feeling is
>> that the upper middle classes, as ever attuned to status and the fast
>> buck, do not regard it as highly as they once did. Science never was
>> so regarded - the proportion of students from public schools going
>> into science was always lower than the proportion from state schools.
>>
>> What do posh kids do now? I'm not sure. Their range of subjects is
>> probably more diffuse than it once was. Some of them may even do
>> business studies and accounting.
>
>We have a lot of them at OBU, and in consequence severe problems with
>widening access.
Far be it for anyone to even contemplate that these might be people
who couldn't get into the university down the hill and who might be
tempted to drop the B when asked what university they were at.
These days, there is an observable correlation between social class of
students and BMI. Students from poorer families tend to be fatter. For
us, 'widening access' could come to mean making the doors a bit wider
and the chairs a bit stronger.
> In the Business School not many do acccounting but lots
>of them do marketing. And Hotel Management which they like until they
>have to do the menial tasks like waiting on table. They also do
>publishing and lots of arty courses. Former posh students include the
>PoW's step-daughter.
In what war was he (or she) a prisoner?
Mike Page
Mike Page
wrote:
But there is'nt any there, there.
Mike Page
Laura F. Spira
Is that errant apostrophe hommage to Stein or were you just in a hurry
to post this bon mot? (I'll ignore the comma that I don't think should
be there...)
the Omrud
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:35:08 +0100, "Laura F. Spira"
> <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Mike Page wrote:
> >
> [snipped comment about ratio of female to male medical students]
>
> It's true. There used to be an unofficial quota in favour of men on
> the grounds that 'boys mature later', but most of my daughter's
> co-students are women. It's a sad fact that professions that are
> predominantly female generally do not enjoy high status; so that is
> another reason to suppose the status of doctors may be declining.
>
> But what do all the high-flying men do? (I've two daughters who'd like
> to know.)
We're all working in IT. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Innit.
...
> Far be it for anyone to even contemplate that these might be people
> who couldn't get into the university down the hill and who might be
> tempted to drop the B when asked what university they were at.
I occasionally meet students from MMU who seem to pronounce this as
"Manchester University".
Laura F. Spira
> Mike Page spake thusly:
>
>
>>On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:35:08 +0100, "Laura F. Spira"
>><la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Mike Page wrote:
>>>
>>
>>[snipped comment about ratio of female to male medical students]
>>
>>It's true. There used to be an unofficial quota in favour of men on
>>the grounds that 'boys mature later', but most of my daughter's
>>co-students are women. It's a sad fact that professions that are
>>predominantly female generally do not enjoy high status; so that is
>>another reason to suppose the status of doctors may be declining.
>>
>>But what do all the high-flying men do? (I've two daughters who'd like
>>to know.)
>
>
> We're all working in IT. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Innit.
>
> ...
>
>
>>Far be it for anyone to even contemplate that these might be people
>>who couldn't get into the university down the hill and who might be
>>tempted to drop the B when asked what university they were at.
It has been rumoured. There are precedents for such deception. The place
where I believe that Archer studied is now part of OB as well.
Would you be surprised to learn that occasions have even been noted when
members of staff at OBU have failed to correct a misapprehension about
which university in Oxford employs them?
>
>
> I occasionally meet students from MMU who seem to pronounce this as
> "Manchester University".
>
Our daughter and her friends were very upset about the name change to
MMU which took place while they were there: they still say they were at
Manchester Poly.
Numeromania
> Matthew Huntbach wrote:
>
>>Most students when addressing me use my first name. Some (particularly
>>from overseas) use "Sir". Occasionally it's "Doctor" followed by my
>>surname, and one or two use just "Doctor".
>
> And you just WISHES you was a real doctor!
>
He IS a real doctor -- in the original sense of the word.
jerry_f...@yahoo.com
> Somebody claiming to be "Viv M" <> wrote in
> news:Y9mdnV5DW5Q...@brightview.com:
>
> > What I do quite like is
> > what my Greek-speaking students often call me, which is 'Mr
> > (Firstname)'.
>
> You're a male Viv? I haven't met one of those in a long time.
>
> As for being called "Mr [given name]", that sounds to me like something
> that would have been said by the (usually black) hired domestic help when
> referring to the employer's family several generations ago. I distinctly
> recall it from both versions of the movie "Imitation of Life", for
> example.
It can be a Southern U.S. thing. It survives in Robison County, N.C.,
among people of equal status on friendly terms.
I ask my community-college students to call me "Jerry", but some of
them have trouble with it. Occasionally I hear "Mr. Jerry", which I
take to be either an inability to throw off high-school training or an
attempt to show me the kind of respect they think I want.
--
Jerry Friedman
K. Edgcombe
Anglia Polytechnic University (which at the last name-change seemed to be very
proud of the Polytechnic title and keen not to lose it) have just changed to
Anglia Ruskin University. Sic transit.
Katy
William
Now, if they can just lose the "Anglia" bit...
--
WH
Mike Page
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>Mike Page wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:19:30 +0200, Ross Howard <ggu...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 15:20:09 GMT, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com>
>>>wrought:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tony Cooper spake thusly:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The English crime novel has changed over the years.
>>>>>[...] The DI would solve the crime
>>>>>neatly and have a few days left on his holiday to take his wife for
>>>>>tramps on the moors or hills or fens or antique shoppe rows.
>>>>
>>>>I've often wondered why tramps hang out on the moors.
>>>
>>>Because they're there.
>>
>>
>> But there is'nt any there, there.
>
>
>Is that errant apostrophe hommage to Stein or were you just in a hurry
>to post this bon mot?
There there, don't worry about it.
(I'll ignore the comma that I don't think should
>be there...)
Gracious of you. Can I ask for 347 previous offences to be taken into
account?
Mike Page
Dona...@gmail.com
CDB wrote:
> <Dona...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1129205709.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> [...]
>
> > Obviously, this depends on where you are. In my part of the world,
> > UK
> > (Southern Division) it would sound mighty odd to address someone as
> > "teacher". Teaching is a job, one would be "a teacher", but one is
> > not
> > addressed as "teacher", any more than one would say "Good morning
> > builder".
> > Teachers, in my experience are addressed as "sir" or "miss", with
> > "miss" being used whatever the marital status of the woman teacher.
>
> [...]
>
> That is interesting. When I came back to Canada in 1957, my fellow
> high-school students addressed the female teachers as "Miss", and I
> took it to be a Canadian provincialism. I had just spent several
> years in the American school in Port-au-Prince, among (U.S.)
> Southerners, for the most part, and was in no doubt that teachers were
> "Sir" and "Ma'am". We stood up when an adult entered the room, too.
In the UK, pretty much nobody is "ma'am" except for the Queen and
possibly people in the armed forces. Standing up for teachers was
something some teachers expected us to do, but not others.
William
> In the UK, pretty much nobody is "ma'am" except for the Queen and
> possibly people in the armed forces.
And "Liddy Pinnillippee" from Thunderbirds.
--
WH
Dona...@gmail.com
Nope. She is "m'lady". Like the cat in Dogtanian.
Matthew Huntbach
> Matthew Huntbach spake thusly:
> > Well, yes, but that's the point - because most people who are good
> > at science tend to get pushed into Medicine, Medicine departments
> > in universities can demand the highest grades for entry, while all
> > other science and engineering departments have to settle for much
> > lower grades.
> Some do, but there are certainly some which don't. Warwick, Durham,
> Imperial - these all have Engineering and Physics requirements of
> AAB. That's after discounting Cambridge.
Sure, but university choice these days tends to be heavily influenced
by the league tables. So a few universities can demand AAB for almost
anything. But once these have snapped up all the top-graded students
who want to do things like Physics and Engineering, there aren't many
left to go round the rest. I think you will find you can get into
science and engineering programmes at some quite prestigious
universities with fairly low grades, but you won't get into Medicine
anywhere with much less than AAA. Also, don't necessarily suppose the
published "grade requirements" are the real necessary ones. No
university department likes to admit in public it's finding it hard to
recruit, and I know for sure many science and engineering departments
actually have to take on students at grades well below their published
"entry requirements" in order to fill up.
> > I can assure you, having worked in university admissions for many years,
> > the push into Medicine is a huge factor, particularly amongst many
> > ethnic minority communities.
> I accept your experience, but having children of university age, I'm
> not aware of any of their science-focussed friends being encouraged
> to follow any specific path. Daughter is studying Civil Engineering;
> the children of two friends who are both GPs are studying Physics,
> many other local children went to study Chemistry, Maths, Engineering
> and other science areas. I don't think I know of more than one or two
> of Daughter's friends who are studying medicine.
>
> Who would be doing this pushing? In the example you give above, it's
> families, but I don't believe I've ever seen it happen. Wife,
> teaching Maths at 6th Form college, doesn't see it either.
As I suggested, it's possibly a particularly strong phenomenon amongst
ethnic minorities, and I work in a university institution where a very
high proportion of applicants are of ethnic minority origin. But I also
get the impression that amongst white middle class people, being a
medical doctor is considered more prestigious than being, say an
industrial chemist or a mechanical engineer - a rung or two higher up
the class ladder.
Matthew Huntbach
Django Cat
> Matthew Huntbach spake thusly:
>
> > On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 de...@aol.com wrote:
> > > Matthew Huntbach wrote:
> >
> > >> Most students when addressing me use my first name. Some
> > (particularly >> from overseas) use "Sir". Occasionally it's
> > "Doctor" followed by my >> surname, and one or two use just
> > "Doctor".
> >
> > > And you just WISHES you was a real doctor!
> >
> > If you mean by "real doctor" "medical practioner", then no,
> > I never wanted to go into Medicine. I think it's a pity that
> > anyone who's good at science tends to get pushed into medicine.
>
> That is absolutely not the case in the UK. In any case, there's no
> call for pushing - medicine (along with dentistry and veterinary
> science) command the highest required results for university entry.
> Of course, here, medics choose their path at 18, rather than after a
> first degree in Building Technology or Palmistry.
>
> The only way to get into medicine in the UK is to start from the
> beginning along with the teenagers. There's no age limit, but you
> can't avoid the 6 years training (or is it 5 now?).
>
> > Perosnally, the idea of poking around sick people never appealed
> > to me at all.
>
> Quite. Mind, I have a friend who thinks the same, so he's a
> consultant anaesthetist. His only contact with sick people is to pop
> in and tell them that he's the bloke who will be knocking them out
> while they have their heart and lungs replaced.
Why do they do that? The only time I've been under anaesthesia (for a
wisdom teethectomy) the anaesthetist came round for a chat, but not the
surgeon. Is this the equivalent of the hangman shaking hands with the
condemmned to calculate their weight?
DC, hopefully back incognito
Unknown
> John Dean spake thusly:
>
> > A mate of mine in the Greater Manchester Police Violence I beg your
> > pardon that should read force was a Detective Sergeant who was
> > summoned before the Chief Constable of the day (one James Anderton,
> > a happy clappy eccentric who terrified the law abiding as much as
> > he did the criminal) for a disciplinary issue which could only be
> > resolved at that level. After having his fortune told in no
> > uncertain terms by Anderton he was invited to respond. He always
> > insisted that he said "Well Sir, it seems we have something in
> > common." "What's that?" asked Anderton. "We've both gone as far as
> > we're likely to go in this Force."
>
> Ah, James Anderton. Those were the days. I doubt that any ordinary
> folk now know the name of the Manchester CC, but Mr Anderton was a
> real local celebrity who could not be ignored, not least because of
> his claim that he discussed things with God. And I don't know if he
> was implicated, but the badly treated Stalker was his Deputy CC. You
> wait ages for an interesting senior policeman and then two come along
> at once.
>
> I saw a performance of "The Threepenny Opera" in the city at the time
> - one policeman said to another, while arresting one of the villains,
> "Put the cuffs on him, Anderton". Got a huge laugh; can't imagine
> that today.
There was another theatre piece around the city at the time;
'Anderson's Archepelago'.
DC
the Omrud
> the Omrud wrote:
> > Matthew Huntbach spake thusly:
>
> > > Well, yes, but that's the point - because most people who are good
> > > at science tend to get pushed into Medicine, Medicine departments
> > > in universities can demand the highest grades for entry, while all
> > > other science and engineering departments have to settle for much
> > > lower grades.
>
> > Some do, but there are certainly some which don't. Warwick, Durham,
> > Imperial - these all have Engineering and Physics requirements of
> > AAB. That's after discounting Cambridge.
>
> Sure, but university choice these days tends to be heavily influenced
> by the league tables. So a few universities can demand AAB for almost
> anything. But once these have snapped up all the top-graded students
> who want to do things like Physics and Engineering, there aren't many
> left to go round the rest. I think you will find you can get into
> science and engineering programmes at some quite prestigious
> universities with fairly low grades, but you won't get into Medicine
> anywhere with much less than AAA. Also, don't necessarily suppose the
> published "grade requirements" are the real necessary ones. No
> university department likes to admit in public it's finding it hard to
> recruit, and I know for sure many science and engineering departments
> actually have to take on students at grades well below their published
> "entry requirements" in order to fill up.
I was going on the grades required by my children's contemporaries,
this year and two years ago - I'm not familiar with the published
grades.
...
> As I suggested, it's possibly a particularly strong phenomenon amongst
> ethnic minorities, and I work in a university institution where a very
> high proportion of applicants are of ethnic minority origin. But I also
> get the impression that amongst white middle class people, being a
> medical doctor is considered more prestigious than being, say an
> industrial chemist or a mechanical engineer - a rung or two higher up
> the class ladder.
More prestigious, perhaps, but not, in my local experience, a subject
for propelling one's offspring in a direction which she doesn't want
to go.
Unknown
> Jim Lawton spake thusly:
>
> > While we are at it, no one in the English armed forces salutes when
> > not wearing their head-gear. Seeing the President do it in the US
> > makes him look appallingly gauche, even though for him it is
> > perfectly correct.
>
> Cor. Does England have an army? Let's invade those truculent Scots!
I watched that 'Red Cap' last night. What a load of bolleau.
Tamzin Outhwaite? I wouldn't.
DC
the Omrud
> the Omrud wrote:
>
> > Quite. Mind, I have a friend who thinks the same, so he's a
> > consultant anaesthetist. His only contact with sick people is to pop
> > in and tell them that he's the bloke who will be knocking them out
> > while they have their heart and lungs replaced.
>
> Why do they do that? The only time I've been under anaesthesia (for a
> wisdom teethectomy) the anaesthetist came round for a chat, but not the
> surgeon. Is this the equivalent of the hangman shaking hands with the
> condemmned to calculate their weight?
I don't know. I'll try to remember to ask him.
> DC, hopefully back incognito
Nope, you are cognito.
Tony Cooper
We differ.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL
Unknown
Bugger.
Django Cat
Fuck!
Graeme Thomas
<nospam@please.?> writes
>Why do they do that? The only time I've been under anaesthesia (for a
>wisdom teethectomy) the anaesthetist came round for a chat, but not the
>surgeon. Is this the equivalent of the hangman shaking hands with the
>condemmned to calculate their weight?
I don't now for sure. The last time I was subject to anaesthesia, the
chap came round for a chat. He carefully discussed the procedures he
proposed to use, and tried to calm my nerves about the forthcoming
operation. (This was a bit of a waste of time, as I was not at all
nervous about it.)
However, when (a couple of hours later) I finally reached the
anaesthetists anteroom, he suddenly had second thoughts. How about, he
said, instead of giving me a general anaesthetic, should he try a spinal
anaesthetic. At this point I confessed that I had let my studies in
anaesthesia lapse, and I was not at all current on modern techniques. I
was quite happy to leave such decisions in the hands of an expert.
Could he suggest the name of such an expert?
Eventually we agreed that we should try this new technique.
ObAUE: I'd recommend this, over the general, as you get to chat to the
operating theatre staff. The anaesthetist and I had quite a long
discussion over the difference between kinaesthesia and proprioception,
and whether it was better to use Greek or Latin roots for medical
terminology. The surgeon (a Registrar) and I talked about the music he
was playing to provide a soothing atmosphere. He assistant (a Junior
House Officer) didn't say much.
--
Graeme Thomas
Robert Bannister
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005, the Omrud wrote:
>
>> Matthew Huntbach spake thusly:
>>
>>> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 de...@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Matthew Huntbach wrote:
>
>
>>>>> Most students when addressing me use my first name. Some (particularly
>>>>> from overseas) use "Sir". Occasionally it's "Doctor" followed by my
>>>>> surname, and one or two use just "Doctor".
>
>
>>>> And you just WISHES you was a real doctor!
>
>
>>> If you mean by "real doctor" "medical practioner", then no,
>>> I never wanted to go into Medicine. I think it's a pity that
>>> anyone who's good at science tends to get pushed into medicine.
>
>
>> That is absolutely not the case in the UK. In any case, there's no
>> call for pushing - medicine (along with dentistry and veterinary
>> science) command the highest required results for university entry.
>
>
> Well, yes, but that's the point - because most people who are good
> at science tend to get pushed into Medicine [snip]
> but got pushed into it by their families. I get several applications
> like this every year - sometimes they've started the Medicine degree
> and dropped out and admit they never wanted to do it in the first
> place. Sometime when they really didn't want to do Medicine, their
> family has disowned them for not doing it - I mean literally, I have
> had several cases of students who are living with friends because
> their family have thrown them out for not wanting to do Medicine.
I can only assume that this is the reason why Medicine demands such high
qualifications. When you consider that a huge amount of the course is
little more than rote learning, the high mark entry seems unjustified,
so I have to suppose that it's to keep the number of applicants down to
a reasonable number.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Who would be doing this pushing? In the example you give above, it's
> families, but I don't believe I've ever seen it happen. Wife,
> teaching Maths at 6th Form college, doesn't see it either.
It is very noticeable among Asian, in particular, Chinese parents. I
don't think it's because of an expectation of a high salary, since by
now, most people would realise that the average GP is not particularly
highly paid. It's more a question of respect, I think.
--
Rob Bannister
Sara Lorimer
> You read that one too? The pushy bloke with the Range Rover who ran
> the gardening centre did it, right?
Coincidentally, last night I read this in a P.D. James mystery from
1967, where a publisher is describing a certain writer's work to Adam
Dalgliesh: "'You know the kind of thing. Cosy English village or small
town scene. Local characters moving on the chess board strictly
according to rank and station. The comforting illusion that violence is
exceptional, that all policemen are honest, that the English class
system hasn't changed in the last twenty years and that murderers aren't
gentlemen.'"
--
SML
Robert Bannister
> publishing and lots of arty courses. Former posh students include the
> PoW's step-daughter.
I really had to think about this Areffism - hard to imagine the
Prince/Princess of Wales as a prisoner of war.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> Sara Lorimer wrote:
>
>>the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Female school teachers of
>>>any age and any marital status are addressed as "Miss". However, if
>>>you use their name then they get the appropriate title. So a child
>>>might say, "Please Mrs Volatile, is it time for lunch?". Teacher
>>>replies, "Yes", and child says "Thank you Miss".
>>
>>At my school in Jamaica we called the teachers "Miss" or "Sir,"
>>without any names. On my first day there we had to practice saying
>>"Good morning, Miss" -- such complicated business.
>
>
> I accompanied a school party as token male adult alongside several women
> teachers. Some of the children occasionally addressed me as "Miss",
> seeming to see it as an all-purpose form of address to an adult in
> authority.
As an ex-schoolteacher, I can say I have frequently been addressed as
"Miss", less frequently as "Dad", twice as "Mum" and once as "Fuckface".
We don't use "Sir" in Australian schools - new immigrants from the UK
stand out like a sore thumb with their sir-larded speech in class. Most
of my students ended up calling me "Mr B".
--
Rob Bannister
the Omrud
Parents, yes, I can understand that. I'm dubious about there being a
nationwide agreement involving teachers and career officers that
bright science student should be pushed into medicine.
Matthew Huntbach
the Omrud wrote:
> Robert Bannister spake thusly:
> > It is very noticeable among Asian, in particular, Chinese parents. I
> > don't think it's because of an expectation of a high salary, since by
> > now, most people would realise that the average GP is not particularly
> > highly paid. It's more a question of respect, I think.
> Parents, yes, I can understand that. I'm dubious about there being a
> nationwide agreement involving teachers and career officers that
> bright science student should be pushed into medicine.
I'm not suggesting any sort of "nationwide agreement" like that. I do
think, however, that there tend to be social pressures that push
school-leavers who are good at science into Medicine rather than other
branches of science and engineering. I thought the comment "bet you
wish you were a real doctor", even though it was jocular and from the
USA, quite indicative of that sort of attitude. There is a widespread
assumption that being a medical practioner is the pinnacle of
achievment for the science-minded, and anyone who is doing anything
else scientific hasn't quite made it to the top.
Matthew Huntbach