Pronunciation - chicken, kitchen & ???
Mike Barnes
In alt.usage.english, "Keith C. Ivey" <kci...@cpcug.org> spake thuswise:
>"Lim Teng Leong" <sky...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>When I was very young, I was taught that there were three common
>>words with "-en" endings that are pronounced "in" instead of @n
>>(because of the limitation of my keyboard, @ is my representation
>>of the schwa symbol). I recall only two such common words:
>>kitchen and chicken. What is the third?
>
>That sounds like a rule invented by someone who was not a native
>English speaker. I'd advise you not to worry about it. In
>general US English, there is no distinction between how the
>endings are pronounced in "chicken", "kitchen", "gotten",
>"fasten", "wooden", "fallen", "sudden", and most other words
>ending in unstressed "-en" (or, for that matter, "pippin",
>"captain", "fireman", "season", and words written with a variety
>of vowels other than "e").
It may be relevant where, and by whom, Lim Teng Leong was taught when
very young. In British English, the last syllables of "chicken" and
"kitchen" are often pronounced as if written "-in". In most words
actually ending in "in", the last syllable is clearly not a schwa. For
instance, if I said "satten" instead of "satin", the difference would be
quite noticeable. It would also be noticeable if I said "kitchen"
instead of "kitchin", "chicken" instead of "chickin", or - and here
possibly is the answer to the original question - "wimmen" instead of
"wimmin".
As Keith says, the "-in"/"-en" thing is not worth worrying about for
most purposes. But I hope your curiosity is satisifed.
--
-- Mike Barnes, Stockport, England.
-- If you post a response to Usenet, please *don't* send me a copy by e-mail.
Markus Laker
In a message that hasn't yet reached my newsfeed, Bob Cunningham writes:
> Would any British readers like to comment on whether or not the
> pronunciations /'tSIkIn/, /'kItSIn/, and /'k&ptIn/ are really common
> over there?
They're the normal pronunciations of 'chicken', 'kitchen' and 'captain'
in both RP and everyday English speech -- which doesn't, of course, make
them universal throughout Britain. I could well imagine some Scots
saying /k&pt@n/, for instance.
> Getting back to Lim Teng Leong's question, can anyone think of any word
> besides "kitchen" and "chicken" that ends with "en" and whose British
> pronunciation ends with /In/?
Yes: 'women' and its compounds, and 'smidgen'.
More controversially, some Brits pronounce '-gen' words such as
'allergen', 'carcinogen' and 'fibrinogen' to end with /In/. When the
suffix '-ic' is added, the 'gen' as pronounced as you'd expect: /dZEn/.
Markus Laker.
[Posted, and mailed to Bob.]
--
My newsfeed is dropping messages again.
*Please* send an emailed copy of any reply.
Bob Cunningham
(This is a copy of a posting to alt.usage.english.)
[In an earlier posting] "Lim Teng Leong" <sky...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>When I was very young, I was taught that there were three common
>words with "-en" endings that are pronounced "in" instead of @n
>(because of the limitation of my keyboard, @ is my representation
>of the schwa symbol). I recall only two such common words:
>kitchen and chicken. What is the third?
la...@tcp.co.uk (Markus Laker) said:
>In a message that hasn't yet reached my newsfeed, Bob Cunningham writes:
>
>> Would any British readers like to comment on whether or not the
>> pronunciations /'tSIkIn/, /'kItSIn/, and /'k&ptIn/ are really common
>> over there?
>
>They're the normal pronunciations of 'chicken', 'kitchen' and 'captain'
>in both RP and everyday English speech -- which doesn't, of course, make
>them universal throughout Britain. I could well imagine some Scots
>saying /k&pt@n/, for instance.
>
>> Getting back to Lim Teng Leong's question, can anyone think of any word
>> besides "kitchen" and "chicken" that ends with "en" and whose British
>> pronunciation ends with /In/?
>
>Yes: 'women' and its compounds, and 'smidgen'.
So, since dictionaries show 'smidgen' as 'colloquial', it seems likely
that 'women' is the third word that Lim Ten Leong was seeking.
COD8^ says that 'smidgen' is pronounced /'smIdZ(@)n/, but that there is
an alternative spelling 'smidgin' for which the pronunciation is
/'smIdZIn/. NSOED/93^^ has only the spelling 'smidgen', for which it
shows the pronunciation /'smIdZIn/.
>More controversially, some Brits pronounce '-gen' words such as
>'allergen', 'carcinogen' and 'fibrinogen' to end with /In/. When the
>suffix '-ic' is added, the 'gen' as pronounced as you'd expect: /dZEn/.
^ COD8 = _The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English_
(Eighth Edition), Oxford University Press 1990.
^^ NSOED/93 = _The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_
(1993 edition), Oxford University Press 1993.
Bob Cunningham
Stephen Heneghan
ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>Getting back to Lim Teng Leong's question, can anyone think of any word
>besides "kitchen" and "chicken" that ends with "en" and whose British
>pronunciation ends with /In/?
Linen.
Stephen Heneghan
Swansea, Reino Unido.
My newserver is not very good, so please e-mail me if you want a reply.
Keith C. Ivey
ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham) wrote:
>So that makes four so far: "chicken", "kitchen", "women", and "linen",
>one more than the "only three" Lim Teng Leong had heard about.
I think there's a fifth that ends in "gry".
[posted and mailed]
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> Washington, DC
Contributing Editor/Webmaster
The Editorial Eye <http://www.eeicom.com/eye/>
Bob Cunningham
Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk> said:
>In alt.usage.english, Bob Cunningham <ad...@lafn.org> spake thuswise:
>>So that makes four so far: "chicken", "kitchen", "women", and "linen",
>>one more than the "only three" Lim Teng Leong had heard about.
>
>I have to say that "linen" wouldn't be on my list - I don't pronounce it
>"linnin" and I'm not aware of anyone who does, apart from (presumably)
>Stephen Heneghan.
There must be a few more than Stephen who say it that way; it's in the
1993 _The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_ (NSOED/93) with no
alternative pronunciation.
> So that brings it down to three. But then you forgot
>"smidgen", which brings it back up to four.
Markus Laker mentioned "smidgen" and some other words ending in "gen".
He said that they were pronounced with /In/ by *some* people. Most of
them had /@n/ in NSOED/93. "Smidgen" showed /In/, but because it was
marked "colloq[uial]" I didn't say any more about it.
>I think the "big three" are: chicken, kitchen, women.
But "kitchen"'s status is shakier than "linen"'s, because while "linen"
has only the one pronunciation, /lInIn/, in NSOED/93, "kitchen" has
three: /'kItSIn/ and /'kItS(@)n/. (The last counts as two because of
the optional schwa.)
Markus Laker
Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk>:
> I have to say that "linen" wouldn't be on my list - I don't pronounce it
> "linnin" and I'm not aware of anyone who does, apart from (presumably)
> Stephen Heneghan.
I hope there's plenty of room at the bottom of that very short list: add
me, my parents, my father's parents, my wife Sue, and her mother. All
these people are (or were) from London. (I don't remember her father
saying 'linen'; he has some Nottingham in his accent.) /'lInIn/ is the
normal pronunciation in London, and seems to have been so for many
decades. It's also the only pronunciation given in COD9 and OED2.
Of course, Mike, you're in Stockport, which is a couple of hundred miles
and several dialects away. It's not surprising that we differ on this
small point. Sue works as a nurse (with lots of beds whose linen often
needs changing) with people from all over the country; she says she'll
listen out for what people say.
Markus Laker.
Bob Cunningham
reg...@iinet.net.au (Gus Perger) said:
(in response to a thread in which words were being discussed that end
with '-en' pronounced /In/)
>What about hen, pen, den...
>Have I lost the thread?
Do you know of a community where 'hen', 'pen', and 'den' are pronounced
/hIn/, /pIn/, and /dIn/ ('hin', 'pin', and 'din')? I don't find those
pronunciations in dictionaries.
Come to think of it, though, I've read that the pronunciations of vowels
that are in most regions pronounced /I/ and /e/ tend to merge in some
parts of the United States.
_Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary_'s "Guide to Pronunciation"
says s.v. \e\:
as in 'bet', 'bed', 'peck' [...]. In Southern and Midland
dialects this vowel before nasal consonants often has a
raised articulation that approaches [/I/], so that 'pen' has
nearly the pronunciation [/pIn/].
That is to say, so that 'pen' is nearly a homophone of 'pin'.
_Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary_ is copyright 1993 by
Merriam-Webster, Incorporated.
Mike Ford
On Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:40:37 +0100, Mike Barnes <mi...@exodus.co.uk>
wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Bob Cunningham <ad...@lafn.org> spake thuswise:
>>So that makes four so far: "chicken", "kitchen", "women", and "linen",
>>one more than the "only three" Lim Teng Leong had heard about.
>
>I have to say that "linen" wouldn't be on my list - I don't pronounce it
>"linnin" and I'm not aware of anyone who does, apart from (presumably)
>Stephen Heneghan.
I'd support the "-in" pronunciation of "linen"; my immedaite thought
on seeing it posted was "yes, nice one". I think it would be pretty
standard around where I grew up (although maybe not where I live now).
I think any other word with the --i--en pattern (short "i"!) would get
the same treatment in my dialect.
----
Mike Ford m...@mcgoff.karoo.co.uk
Leeds, UK
Lars Eighner
In our last episode <33ba6d4e....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
the lovely and talented ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham)
broadcast on alt.usage.english:
|reg...@iinet.net.au (Gus Perger) said:
|
|(in response to a thread in which words were being discussed that end
|with '-en' pronounced /In/)
|
|>What about hen, pen, den...
|>Have I lost the thread?
|
|Do you know of a community where 'hen', 'pen', and 'den' are pronounced
|/hIn/, /pIn/, and /dIn/ ('hin', 'pin', and 'din')? I don't find those
|pronunciations in dictionaries.
Yes. In much of the American South and Texas "pen" and "pin," "den"
and "din," "been" and "bin," and "Jim" and "gem" are identical in
pronunciation, so I surmise would be "hen" and "*hin." Moreover, many
native speakers will not perceive any difference in the pairs when they
are pronounced by speakers who do pronounce them differently.
The "-n" or "-m" seems to be the key, for most who do not distinguish
"-in" from "-en" have little trouble with pairs such as: bid and bed,
pet and pit, pick and peck, Jif and Jeff, etc., which often are
similar, but not identical.
|Come to think of it, though, I've read that the pronunciations of vowels
|that are in most regions pronounced /I/ and /e/ tend to merge in some
|parts of the United States.
Indeed.
|_Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary_'s "Guide to Pronunciation"
|says s.v. \e\:
|
| as in 'bet', 'bed', 'peck' [...]. In Southern and Midland
| dialects this vowel before nasal consonants often has a
| raised articulation that approaches [/I/], so that 'pen' has
| nearly the pronunciation [/pIn/].
|
|That is to say, so that 'pen' is nearly a homophone of 'pin'.
For "pin" and "pen" it is not "nearly." I'd say, however, that
in all cases, what is approached is the minimumal vowel, albeit
from different directions.
|
|_Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary_ is copyright 1993 by
|Merriam-Webster, Incorporated.
|
--
Lars Eighner= http://www.io.com/%7Eeighner = http://www.crl.com/%7Eeighner =
12550 Vista View #302 (210)979-7124 eig...@crl.com eig...@io.com ==
San Antonio TX 78231 alt.books.lars-eighner "At better ISPs everywhere"=
============================================================================
Ross Smith
Adrian Pepper [MFCF] wrote:
>
> ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham) wrote,
> in article <33be2488...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>:
> >10602...@compuserve.com (Stephen Heneghan) said:
> >
> >It seems strange to me that "kitten" is /'kIt@n/ while "kitchen" is
> >/'kItSIn/. Also "quicken", /'kwIk@n/, seems incongruous with
> "chicken",
> >/'tSIkIn/.
>
> In the face of "Penelope" and "antelope", you can worry about trivial
> things like that?
>
> I was born in Winchester, England, but have evolved my very own
> peculiar accent after living in Canada since I was seven. And I
> don't think I would think of either pronunciation of "kitchen"
> as wrong. I *think* I usually say /'kItS@n/
>
> "chicken" and "women" I agree with; they sound "en" as "in".
Does American pronunciation make a distinction between /I/ and /@/ then?
They sound identical to me.
--
Ross Smith ............................. <mailto:ross....@nz.eds.com>
Internet and New Media, EDS (New Zealand) Ltd., Wellington, New Zealand
"I'm as interested as anybody else in all the things no decent
person would be interested in." -- Ashleigh Brilliant
Adrian Pepper [MFCF]
arpe...@math.uwaterloo.ca (Adrian Pepper [MFCF]) wrote,
in article <ECp3u...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>:
>ad...@lafn.org (Bob Cunningham) wrote,
> in article <33be2488...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>:
>>
>>It seems strange to me that "kitten" is /'kIt@n/ while "kitchen" is
>>/'kItSIn/. Also "quicken", /'kwIk@n/, seems incongruous with "chicken",
>>/'tSIkIn/.
>
>In the face of "Penelope" and "antelope", you can worry about trivial
>things like that?
But to offer more trivialities, does it not grate on your ears when you
try to rhyme "singer" with "finger"?
Adrian.
Philip Eden
adi...@commschool.org (Aaron J. Dinkin) wrote:
>This whole debate has been nearly baffling me. I say /'kItS@n/, /'tSIk@n/,
>/'lIn@n/, /'wIm@n/, /'kwIk@n/, /'kIt@n/, and so forth. Furthermore, I would
>pronounce "kitchin" and "linnin" /'kItS@n/ and /'lIn@n/ as well. "Habit"
>rhymes with "abbot".
>
>-Aaron J. Dinkin
>Dr. Whom
What about "in"?
Philip Eden (id@n)
Philip Eden
.. or indeed "Dinkin"?
Philip Eden
Aaron J. Dinkin
In article <33c267f4...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, ad...@lafn.org (Bob
Cunningham) wrote:
>adi...@commschool.org (Aaron J. Dinkin) said:
>
>[...]
>
>>This whole debate has been nearly baffling me.
>
>Has it been a debate? I thought it was a sharing of each poster's
>experiences with others.
Well, yes. I just like to say "debate".
>>I say /'kItS@n/, /'tSIk@n/,
>>/'lIn@n/, /'wIm@n/, /'kwIk@n/, /'kIt@n/, and so forth. Furthermore, I would
>>pronounce "kitchin" and "linnin" /'kItS@n/ and /'lIn@n/ as well. "Habit"
>>rhymes with "abbot".
>
>It was recognized from the outset of this thread that the pronunciations
>you list are the ones that are predominant in the US.
Was it? Sorry for bringing it up again. My news server has a habit of not
showing me the outsets of threads and only letting me in on them once
they've been going on for a while.
<snip>
>As for the "third word" question, it turned out that there are *two*
>other words that are shown in British dictionaries with the /In/
>pronunciation of the "-en" ending: "women" and "linen".
As with most "third word" questions, the answer is obviously "lingry".
>Most of the ensuing discussion has had to do with how the words are
>actually pronounced in various parts of the UK. Only one poster, Ric
>Johnson, who is from Northern Indiana, has suggested that there is any
>exception to the /@n/ pronunciation of words ending in "-en" in the US,
>and that was for only one word, "linen".
But what about words ending "-in"? Those, IMPD, typically end with /@n/ as
well. "Basin" /'bes@n/ and "tannin" /'t&n@n/, for example.
Curtis Cameron
Bob Cunningham wrote:
>
> To an American his question seemed invalid, since "chicken" and
> "kitchen" are both pronounced with the /@n/ ending in the US. I found,
> though, that they are indeed shown in British dictionaries with the /In/
> pronunciation, and I posted to share that discovery.
>
> Most of the ensuing discussion has had to do with how the words are
> actually pronounced in various parts of the UK. Only one poster, Ric
> Johnson, who is from Northern Indiana, has suggested that there is any
> exception to the /@n/ pronunciation of words ending in "-en" in the US,
> and that was for only one word, "linen".
I'm a Texan - does that count? I agree with the UKers that "chicken",
"kitchen", "women", and "linen" all end with the /In/ sound. I'm
surprised to see that anyone says /@n/, since I don't think I've ever
encountered that pronunciation.
-Curtis Cameron
Bob Cunningham
Supervisor-Mick <Mi...@bellbow.demon.co.uk> said:
>In article <33be2488...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, Bob Cunningham
><ad...@lafn.org> writes
[...]
>>It seems strange to me that "kitten" is /'kIt@n/ while "kitchen" is
>>/'kItSIn/. Also "quicken", /'kwIk@n/, seems incongruous with "chicken",
>>/'tSIkIn/.
>>
>
>Aren't the vowel endings of both kitchen and chicken schwaa sounds !
You have apparently missed the earlier postings in this thread. If you
would really like an answer to your exclamation, I suggest that you go
to DejaNews and read them. The thread started on 21 June 1997 with a
posting from Lim Teng Leong. There have been about 35 postings in the
thread so far.
I have the postings in a file that I could send to you if you are unable
to recover them from DejaNews.
00nzwi...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
In article <CrI$yCAMj3...@bellbow.demon.co.uk>, Supervisor-Mick <Mi...@bellbow.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Aren't the vowel endings of both kitchen and chicken schwaa sounds !
Not on the western side of the pond.
--
Nyal Z. Williams
00nzwi...@bsuvc.bsu.edu