chink
KajLina
1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a derogatory word
which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit' only.
So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
2. What is the meaning of 'netcop'? I saw this word several times in AUE
but couldn't find it in http://www.onelook.com
Is it a newly coined word?
KajLina
---------
(I decided to put the address of my homepage here as the number of
the counter has remained unchanged for a long long time. Anyone
who signs my guestbook will get a BIG GIFT.)
http://freehomepages.com/kajlina/kajlinafoto.html (my pic/mia foto)
http://mypage.goplay.com/china_108 (my homepage/mia hejmpagxo)(Vidu
pagxo ses por samideano)
http://freehomepages.com/china108/photoalbum1.html (my photo album/mia
fotoalbumo)
Graybags
KajLina wrote in message <38D7593A...@hkstar.com>...
1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a derogatory word
which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit' only.
So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
I have a feeling that it comes from the narrowness of the palpebral aperture
(slitty eyes), but may be wrong.
2. What is the meaning of 'netcop'? I saw this word several times in AUE
but couldn't find it in http://www.onelook.com
Is it a newly coined word?
I'm not sure on this one, but would assume that it is an internet policing
person.
Graybags
Graybags
Mark Barratt
<hare...@hkstar.com> wrote:
>=A0
>1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a
derogatory word
>which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit'
only.
>So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
I think that it's a plausible corruption of a European word for
'China' or 'Chinese'. The French call China 'Chine' pronounced
'sheen', for example, which is pretty close.
>2. What is the meaning of 'netcop'? I saw this word several
times in AUE
>but couldn't find it in http://www.onelook.com
>Is it a newly coined word?
Maybe - it's not in the Jargon File, either. The sense in which
I've seen it used here is as a verb. Netcop - to complain to
another poster's ISP about net "abuse", in the hope of getting
their account closed. It may well have broader meaning, in other
usage.
Regards
Mark Barratt
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
John Davies
>
>1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a derogatory word
>which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit' only.
>So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
As with so much slang, it is impossible to be completely sure of the
origin of the word. Partridge [1] says that it dates from the 1880s, and
speculates that it is either a reference to the perceived slanted eyes
of the Chinese, or a shortening of "Chinaman". It could of course be
both: how can one tell what was in the minds of those who first used the
phrase?
>
>2. What is the meaning of 'netcop'? I saw this word several times in AUE
>but couldn't find it in http://www.onelook.com
>Is it a newly coined word?
An officious person who devotes much time and energy to complaining
about others' infringements of "netiquette", the approved practice of
Usenet news groups. Netcops are of course self-appointed.
(1)PARTRIDGE, Eric: A Concise Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional
English, edited by Paul Beale. Based on the 8th ed of P's Dictionary of
Slang and Unconventional English. Routledge, 1989. ISBN 0 415 06353 3
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
Martin Ambuhl
KajLina wrote:
>
>
> 1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a derogatory word
> which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit' only.
> So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
I don't have an OED4 at hand (no one else does either), but I frankly
don't believe you. Consider
these other Oxford offerings:
COD4 (1951)
Chink(3), n. (sl.) A Chinese. [abbr.]
COD10 (1999)
Chink n. <informal, offensive> a Chinese person.
SOED3 (1944)
Chink, sb.(4) 1901 orig. U.S. A Chinaman.
NSOED (1993)
Chink n.(3) <slang derog.> L19 {Irref. f. China, cf. Chinky] A Chinese
OADCE (1999)
Chink <n. sl. offens.> A Chinese person. <dervative> Chinky, adj.
Now the OED is the flagship Oxford dictionary and the most inclusive in
the world. It is only in its 2nd edition (with 3 volumes of addenda),
OED3 being planned for 2010.
This suggests that you do not have an OED4 unless you also have a time
machine.
The above shorter dictionaries from Oxford span 1944-1999 and *all* have
the entry for which you are looking.
>
> 2. What is the meaning of 'netcop'? I saw this word several times in AUE
> but couldn't find it in http://www.onelook.com
> Is it a newly coined word?
To report an abuser of the internet to an authority which can discipline
him. Usually this discipline is an ISP removing access because of a
violation of the terms of service to which the user agreed.
>
>
>
> KajLina
> ---------
> (I decided to put the address of my homepage here as the number of
> the counter has remained unchanged for a long long time. Anyone
> who signs my guestbook will get a BIG GIFT.)
> http://freehomepages.com/kajlina/kajlinafoto.html (my pic/mia foto)
> http://mypage.goplay.com/china_108 (my homepage/mia hejmpagxo)(Vidu
> pagxo ses por samideano)
> http://freehomepages.com/china108/photoalbum1.html (my photo album/mia
> fotoalbumo)
>
--
Martin Ambuhl mam...@earthlink.net
What one knows is, in youth, of little moment; they know enough who
know how to learn. - Henry Adams
A thick skin is a gift from God. - Konrad Adenauer
__________________________________________________________
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Evan Kirshenbaum
> In article <38D7593A...@hkstar.com>, KajLina
> <hare...@hkstar.com> writes
>
> >1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a derogatory
> >word which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit'
> >only. So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
>
> As with so much slang, it is impossible to be completely sure of the
> origin of the word. Partridge [1] says that it dates from the 1880s,
> and speculates that it is either a reference to the perceived
> slanted eyes of the Chinese, or a shortening of "Chinaman". It could
> of course be both: how can one tell what was in the minds of those
> who first used the phrase?
MW pins it down to 1887 and goes with (perhaps) an alteration of
"Chinese". (And, relevant to another thread, label it "usually
offensive".) They list it as a third nominal sense, etymologically
different from "cleft, slit; weak spot" (1535) and "coin; sound"
(1573).
Since it's so late, following "Chinese" (1606) and "Chinaman" (1789)
by so much time, my suspicion is that it is actually imitative of some
term the Chinese (perhaps in California) used to describe themselves.
Surprisingly (to me, at least), MW traces "china" (the material) back
not to a Chinese word but to the Persian word for Chinese porcelain.
(It doesn't give etymologies for toponyms.)
So what word would the Chinese laborers in California be likely to use
to refer to themselves.
> >2. What is the meaning of 'netcop'? I saw this word several times in AUE
> >but couldn't find it in http://www.onelook.com
> >Is it a newly coined word?
>
> An officious person who devotes much time and energy to complaining
> about others' infringements of "netiquette", the approved practice of
> Usenet news groups. Netcops are of course self-appointed.
I first saw it as a noun with that meaning. Later it became extended
to a verb meaning "to complain to someone's superiors or ISP".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It does me no injury for my neighbor
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |to say there are twenty gods, or no
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |God.
| Thomas Jefferson
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
ChenHA
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
>
> MW pins it down to 1887 and goes with (perhaps) an alteration of
> "Chinese". (And, relevant to another thread, label it "usually
> offensive".) They list it as a third nominal sense, etymologically
> different from "cleft, slit; weak spot" (1535) and "coin; sound"
> (1573).
>
> Since it's so late, following "Chinese" (1606) and "Chinaman" (1789)
> by so much time, my suspicion is that it is actually imitative of some
> term the Chinese (perhaps in California) used to describe themselves.
You should dismiss the thought at once. Chinese people
don't call themselves Chink, Chin or anything similar.
> Surprisingly (to me, at least), MW traces "china" (the material) back
> not to a Chinese word but to the Persian word for Chinese porcelain.
> (It doesn't give etymologies for toponyms.)
>
There was a long discussion in sci.lang on this subject last
year. It is not entirely clear what the original word
(persian chini) in Chinese is. It could be Jin or Qin
dynasty or a region to the West of China called Qin. It
would appear that people from Central Asia called those from
the East Qin, while the Chinese refer to those from the West
also Qin (a country called 'Da Qin' in ancient China is
thought to be the Roman Empire). Chinese won't called
themselves Qin, Chin or Jin because such terms refer to
people thought to be half-barbaric. Chinese generally refer
to themselves as Hua, Han or Tang. What non-Chinese called
the Chinese is something Chinese can't do anything about.
It is also interesting to note that the other term for
China, Cathay, is also not of Chinese origin, but comes from
'Khitai', a people related to the Mongols.
I personally don't find the word 'Chink' offensive, although
I'm sure many Chinese people do. I'm more offended by
people who use the most polite term but can still be
perfectly offensive by their intonations that barely
disguise their contempt.
KajLina
> KajLina wrote:
> >
> >
> > 1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a derogatory word
> > which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit' only.
> > So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
>
> I don't have an OED4 at hand (no one else does either), but I frankly
> don't believe you.
> Now the OED is the flagship Oxford dictionary and the most inclusive in
> the world. It is only in its 2nd edition (with 3 volumes of addenda),
> OED3 being planned for 2010.
> This suggests that you do not have an OED4 unless you also have a time
> machine.
That should be OALECD4( oxford advanced learners english chinese dictionary
4th edition)
I re-checked it. There's really no entry in which chink means 'chinese'. And
CCSD doesn't have it either.
chink
// chinks, chinking, chinked
1
A chink is a very narrow opening.
Through a chink she could see a bit of blue sky.
COUNT N
2
When objects chink, they touch each other, making a short, light,
ringing sound.
Empty bottles chinked as the milkman put them into his crate.
VB
?
chink
...the chink of money.
--
KajLina
---------
Bun Mui
> chink
>
> From: KajLina <hare...@hkstar.com>
> Reply to: [1]KajLina
> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:12:59 +0800
> Organization: IMS Netvigator
> Newsgroups:
> [2]alt.usage.english
> Followup to: [3]newsgroup
>=A0
>1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a derogatory word
>which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit' only.
>So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
Obviously you are not a North American Chinese or a are a troll.
Bun Mui
KajLina
> >1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a derogatory word
> >which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit' only.
> >So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
>
> Obviously you are not a North American Chinese or a are a troll.
>
I am *not* a troll. I am not *you*. All of my questions are serious ones.
And I never said that I am from North American.
--
khann
>
[...]
>
> That should be OALECD4( oxford advanced learners english chinese dictionary
> 4th edition)
> I re-checked it. There's really no entry in which chink means 'chinese'. And
> CCSD doesn't have it either.
Well that really isn't all that hard to understand. No doubt the editors
were loath to include pejorative terms referring to their target market.
My Cassell's English-Spanish dictionary has no entries for "spic" or
"dago". Oddly, the Robert-Collins English-French dictionary has no
problems with defining "frog" as a term for "French".
KHann
Bun Mui
> Reply to: [1]KajLina
>=A0
>1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a derogatory word
>which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit' only.
>So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
Only derogatory if this is used.-
"C____y, C____y, C____man sitting on a bench trying to make a dollar
out of 15 cents."
Anybody know when, were, and how this derogatory sentence originated
from in English usage?
I think it is only used in North America, right?
Use to be said by adult whites in the 1800s or early 1900s when there
was gold rush and railway building.
Now only white school children use this expression to tease their
Chinese classmates.
Comments?
Bun Mui
Perchprism
>From: Bun Mui Bun...@my-Dejanews.com
>Date: 3/22/00 10:17 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <tu5C4.6$Hq1...@news1.mts.net>
>
>> From: KajLina <hare...@hkstar.com>
>> Reply to: [1]KajLina
>
>>=A0
>>1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a derogatory word
>>which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit' only.
>>So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
>
>Only derogatory if this is used.-
>
>"C____y, C____y, C____man sitting on a bench trying to make a dollar
>out of 15 cents."
>
>Anybody know when, were, and how this derogatory sentence originated
>from in English usage?
>
>I think it is only used in North America, right?
>Use to be said by adult whites in the 1800s or early 1900s when there
>was gold rush and railway building.
I never heard that before, but I can sympathise, having recently returned from
Britain with a mess of change I didn't spend because I didn't want to waste
everybody's time while I figured out what I was looking at.
>Now only white school children use this expression to tease their
>Chinese classmates.
>
>Comments?
Sure. You got off easy. When the other kids found out my real first name was
"George," they treated me to few years of "Georgie Porgie, puddin' and pie --
kissed the girls and made them cry. When the boys came out to play, Georgie
Porgie ran away." I've got two divorces and a busted-up body from trying ever
since to live that down.
--
Perchprism
(southern New Jersey, near Philadelphia)
Darrell Fuhriman
> > From: KajLina <hare...@hkstar.com>
> > Reply to: [1]KajLina
>
> >=A0
> >1.I just learned this word today in newspapers. It is a derogatory word
> >which means 'Chinese'. In OED4, the meaning of chink is 'slit' only.
> >So, how came 'chink' means 'Chinese'?
>
> Only derogatory if this is used.-
>
> "C____y, C____y, C____man sitting on a bench trying to make a dollar
> out of 15 cents."
>
> Anybody know when, were, and how this derogatory sentence originated
> from in English usage?
I've never heard that doggerel before, and I've never heard
'chink' used in anyway but an extremely derogatory one. I've
always thought of it as equivalently derogatory as 'nigger' and
would never use the word to actually describe someone.
Darrell
M.J.Powell
>I never heard that before, but I can sympathise, having recently returned from
>Britain with a mess of change I didn't spend because I didn't want to waste
>everybody's time while I figured out what I was looking at.
Mess is right. Would you agree that we have the worst set of coinage
that you have ever seen?
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Richard Fontana
>Bun Mui <Bun...@my-Dejanews.com> writes:
[...]
>> Only derogatory if this is used.-
>>
>> "C____y, C____y, C____man sitting on a bench trying to make a dollar
>> out of 15 cents."
>>
>> Anybody know when, were, and how this derogatory sentence originated
>> from in English usage?
>
>I've never heard that doggerel before
I am hesitant to post something serious on a Bun Mui thread, or to
reply to a possibly serious Bun Mui question, but (for the benefit of the
several child folklore scholars on the newsgroup) the rhyme I remember
being used when I was a child (New York, 1970s) was:
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang sittin' on a fence
Tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents.
(There was probably more, but I don't remember it.)
I used to wonder about what this could mean. I and probably most
contemporary children were very familiar with the popular
children's book by Ian Fleming, _Chitty Chitty Bang Bang_, which (IIRC)
was about a sentient and technologically advanced British automobile
and the adventures of the British family that owned it. The car was so
named after the sound that its motor made. I understand that the story
was made into a Disney movie starring Dick Van Dyke, but I've never seen it.
I assumed that the rhyme was just a bit of nonsense verse inspired by the
title of the book.
Until reading Bun Mui's posting, I was unaware of any alternate or
older derogatory version of this rhyme, referring to "Chinaman". I searched
a bit on Google and found sources confirming the existence of derogatory
anti-Chinese rhymes similar to the one reported by Bun Mui. I have found
no reference on the Web to the "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" rhyme that I knew.
RF
Bun Mui
>Darrell Fuhriman writes:
>>Bun Mui <Bun...@my-Dejanews.com> writes:
>[...]
>>> Only derogatory if this is used.-
>>>
>>> "C____y, C____y, C____man sitting on a bench trying to make a dollar
>>> out of 15 cents."
>>>
>>> Anybody know when, were, and how this derogatory sentence originated
>>> from in English usage?
>>
>>I've never heard that doggerel before
>[...]
>
>I am hesitant to post something serious on a Bun Mui thread, or to
>reply to a possibly serious Bun Mui question, but (for the benefit of the
>several child folklore scholars on the newsgroup) the rhyme I remember
>being used when I was a child (New York, 1970s) was:
How old were you then?
>
>Chitty Chitty Bang Bang sittin' on a fence
>Tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents.
Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?
Since when was Dick Van Dyke, Chinese?
It was said to me by my classmates long before that movie was made in
the late 60s or early 70s.
>Until reading Bun Mui's posting, I was unaware of any alternate or
>older derogatory version of this rhyme, referring to "Chinaman". I searched
>a bit on Google and found sources confirming the existence of derogatory
>anti-Chinese rhymes similar to the one reported by Bun Mui. I have found
>no reference on the Web to the "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" rhyme that I knew.
Probably they took the rhyme from white men ridiculing the Chinese men,
to try to make it less derogatory..
Comments?
Bun Mui
Richard Fontana
>> From: re...@columbia.edu (Richard Fontana)
>
>>Darrell Fuhriman writes:
>>>Bun Mui <Bun...@my-Dejanews.com> writes:
>>[...]
>>>> Only derogatory if this is used.-
>>>>
>>>> "C____y, C____y, C____man sitting on a bench trying to make a dollar
>>>> out of 15 cents."
>>>>
>>>> Anybody know when, were, and how this derogatory sentence originated
>>>> from in English usage?
>>>
>>>I've never heard that doggerel before
>>[...]
>>
>>I am hesitant to post something serious on a Bun Mui thread, or to
>>reply to a possibly serious Bun Mui question, but (for the benefit of the
>>several child folklore scholars on the newsgroup) the rhyme I remember
>>being used when I was a child (New York, 1970s) was:
>
>How old were you then?
I would guess that I heard the "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" rhyme
fairly regularly from second grade through sixth grade, 1974-1980,
when I was between the ages of 5 and 11. If I had to pin it down
further, I'd say it was particularly popular during second through
fifth grades (1975-1979, ages 6 through 10). I think the rhyme was used
more by girls than by boys. It was used in particular situations
which I can't really remember -- it might have been a counting or
selecting rhyme (like "Eeny, meeny, miny mo", which I only knew in
the "tiger" version). It may have been part of some sort of game. I
remember some of my classmates chanting the rhyme during school trips to
museums, etc., when we had to spend a lot of time on a train or a bus.
It may also have been a jump-rope rhyme.
>>Chitty Chitty Bang Bang sittin' on a fence
>>Tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents.
>
>Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?
>
>Since when was Dick Van Dyke, Chinese?
Never, to the best of my knowledge.
>It was said to me by my classmates long before that movie was made in
>the late 60s or early 70s.
You raise (implicitly) a good point: the book itself was published
in 1964 or so, and presumably before Ian Fleming no one ever heard
of "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang". It seems unlikely that "Chitty
Chitty Bang Bang" -- which, as the representation of a motor sound,
albeit an unusual one, may owe something to the British dialect of its
inventor (I don't know what sort of accent Ian Fleming had, but familiar
RP "chitty" differs from American "chitty" principally in the greater
voicelessness of the /t/ sound) -- would have had two independent origins,
one in the mind of Ian Fleming, and the other in the minds of American
schoolchildren. It would be too bizarre.
>>Until reading Bun Mui's posting, I was unaware of any alternate or
>>older derogatory version of this rhyme, referring to "Chinaman". I searched
>>a bit on Google and found sources confirming the existence of derogatory
>>anti-Chinese rhymes similar to the one reported by Bun Mui. I have found
>>no reference on the Web to the "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" rhyme that I knew.
>
>Probably they took the rhyme from white men ridiculing the Chinese men,
>to try to make it less derogatory..
I think that's quite possible, though I'd like to know if the rhyme
existed in any other older non-derogatory versions, in North America
or elsewhere.
RF
Evan Kirshenbaum
> >Bun Mui <Bun...@my-Dejanews.com> writes:
> [...]
> >> Only derogatory if this is used.-
> >>
> >> "C____y, C____y, C____man sitting on a bench trying to make a dollar
> >> out of 15 cents."
> >>
> >> Anybody know when, were, and how this derogatory sentence
> >> originated from in English usage?
> >
> I am hesitant to post something serious on a Bun Mui thread, or to
> reply to a possibly serious Bun Mui question, but (for the benefit
> of the several child folklore scholars on the newsgroup) the rhyme I
> remember being used when I was a child (New York, 1970s) was:
>
> Chitty Chitty Bang Bang sittin' on a fence
> Tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents.
Some variants found on the web:
"Ching Ching Chinaman sitting on a fence Trying to
make a dollar out of fifteen cents. Along came a
Chinaman and hit him on the head. Ching Ching Chinaman
fell down dead.
"Chicka-chicka China, sitting on a fence,
tried to make a dollar outta fifty-nine cents,"
Ching Chong Chinaman, sitting on a fence,
trying to make a dollar out of fifteen cents.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |First Law of Anthropology:
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U | If they're doing something you
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | don't understand, it's either an
| isolated lunatic, a religious
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | ritual, or art.
(650)857-7572
Elaine Parrish
> Darrell Fuhriman writes:
> >Bun Mui <Bun...@my-Dejanews.com> writes:
> [...]
> >> Only derogatory if this is used.-
> >>
> >> "C____y, C____y, C____man sitting on a bench trying to make a dollar
> >> out of 15 cents."
> >>
> >> Anybody know when, were, and how this derogatory sentence originated
> >> from in English usage?
> >
> >I've never heard that doggerel before
> [...]
>
> I am hesitant to post something serious on a Bun Mui thread, or to
> reply to a possibly serious Bun Mui question,
tee hee hee. I know how you feel here! But....
My paternal grandfather was a dyed-in-the-wool democrat. I was born in
1954.
Between 1955 and 1958, my grandfather would take me to the neighborhood
general/grocery store where all his democrat cronies hung-out. He would
say to me, "tell them about the Republicans and I'll buy you a
Coca-Cola." I would repeat the words he taught me.
Republican, Republican, sitting on a fence trying to make a dollar out of
15 cents.
I never heard any other versions and I never heard this version from
anyone but my grandfather.
Elaine
Perchprism
>From: "M.J.Powell" mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk
>Date: 3/22/00 11:40 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <nqL7wJAE...@pickmere.demon.co.uk>
I did seem to have more difficulty in Britain than in other places like Austria
and France. I can't say why that is. Probably some accidental similarity or
dis- with American coins that cheats or rewards my expectations. We don't have
a dollar, for one thing (I know, but you never see them). It always takes me a
day or two to stop reaching for a bill every time, and by that time my pants
are down around my knees from the weight. Maybe I should just start carrying a
purse like Garry does.
Richard Fontana
[about having been familiar with the following child-rhyme in
1970s New York:]
>>>Chitty Chitty Bang Bang sittin' on a fence
Bun Mui wrote:
[about a different, offensive and derogatory anti-Chinese version of
this rhyme:]
>>>>> "C____y, C____y, C____man sitting on a bench trying to make a dollar
>>>>> out of 15 cents."
[...]
>>It was said to me by my classmates long before that movie was made in
>>the late 60s or early 70s.
I (RF) then wrote (referring to Ian Fleming's children's book
_Chitty Chitty Bang Bang_, about a magical car):
>You raise (implicitly) a good point: the book itself was published
>in 1964 or so, and presumably before Ian Fleming no one ever heard
>of "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang". It seems unlikely that "Chitty
>Chitty Bang Bang" -- which, as the representation of a motor sound,
>albeit an unusual one, may owe something to the British dialect of its
>inventor (I don't know what sort of accent Ian Fleming had, but familiar
>RP "chitty" differs from American "chitty" principally in the greater
>voicelessness of the /t/ sound) -- would have had two independent origins,
>one in the mind of Ian Fleming, and the other in the minds of American
>schoolchildren. It would be too bizarre.
I asked my mother, who has lived in New York since age 5 (ca. 1940),
whether she was familiar with any of these sorts of rhymes. To
my surprise, she stated that she was most familiar with the
"Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" version from her childhood or
elementary school days in New York (say, 1940-1946). She
seemed to be less familiar with, though not unfamiliar
with, the sorts of anti-Chinese versions reported by Bun Mui.
This is rather astounding, because if my mother is remembering
this correctly it would mean that (1) Ian Fleming invented "Chitty
Chitty Bang Bang" independently and later in time than the original
currency of the Chitty Chitty Bang Bang rhyme in New York, or (2) Fleming
took "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" from American children's rhymes he had
somehow learned about, or (3) Fleming took "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang"
from British children's rhymes which share a common origin
with certain American children's rhymes with the same element
(but which aren't common enough to turn up on Google web
searches).
Bun Mui speculated, about the origin of the "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang"
version of the child rhyme:
>>Probably they took the rhyme from white men ridiculing the Chinese men,
>>to try to make it less derogatory..
This still seems possible, even if the Chitty Chitty Bang Bang rhyme
dates from the 1940s or earlier. But another possibility is that
the derogatory rhyme is younger than the non-derogatory one.
Does anyone else have a recollection of the use of the words
"Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" prior to the 1960s?
RF
Charles Riggs
>I never heard that before, but I can sympathise, having recently returned from
>Britain with a mess of change I didn't spend because I didn't want to waste
>everybody's time while I figured out what I was looking at.
The only thing to do with that confusing myriad of coins the British
have is to just lay them on the counter and let the shopkeeper figure
`em out. I only one I recognise for sure is that sexy little pound
coin.
Charles Riggs
Charles Riggs
<dar...@grumblesmurf.net> wrote:
>I've never heard that doggerel before, and I've never heard
>'chink' used in anyway but an extremely derogatory one. I've
>always thought of it as equivalently derogatory as 'nigger' and
>would never use the word to actually describe someone.
The words are not descriptions, just names. Blacks frequently call
each other niggers in a friendly manner; I don't know if the Chinese
are in the habit of calling each other chinks or Chinamen though -- I
rather doubt it.
Charles Riggs
Mike Barnes
>Mike wrote:
>>From: "M.J.Powell" mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk
>>Date: 3/22/00 11:40 AM Eastern Standard Time
>>Message-id: <nqL7wJAE...@pickmere.demon.co.uk>
>>
>>snip
>>
>>from
>>>Britain with a mess of change I didn't spend because I didn't want to waste
>>>everybody's time while I figured out what I was looking at.
>>
>>that you have ever seen?
>
>I did seem to have more difficulty in Britain than in other places like Austria
>and France. I can't say why that is. Probably some accidental similarity or
>dis- with American coins that cheats or rewards my expectations. We don't have
>a dollar, for one thing (I know, but you never see them). It always takes me a
>day or two to stop reaching for a bill every time, and by that time my pants
>are down around my knees from the weight. Maybe I should just start carrying a
>purse like Garry does.
I find that when I have foreign coins the easiest way is simply to offer
them on my open palm to anyone who needs paying for anything. Checkout
operators, etc, are normally grateful for this approach and will take as
many coins as possible, making it clear if more money is required, and
even helping themselves from a proffered sheaf of notes. Cashiers seem
to prefer the self-service approach to watching the foreigner fumble.
Of course I might be robbed, but hey! it's not real money. A few
decades ago I tipped a tourist-camel-renter in Egypt, and he instantly
rejected the note, demanding to know how much money I had. It
transpired that the note was worth 100 times more than I thought, and he
clearly regarded me as a disaster waiting to happen. After lecturing me
on the values of the various notes I had in my pocket, and explaining
their equivalents in English pounds, he selected a note worth about a
quarter of what I was intending to give him, and strode off with his
camel. Somehow he did all this without making me feel anywhere as
insensitive and inadequate as I ought to have done.
--
Mike Barnes
khann
>
> snip
>
> >I never heard that before, but I can sympathise, having recently returned from
> >Britain with a mess of change I didn't spend because I didn't want to waste
> >everybody's time while I figured out what I was looking at.
>
> Mess is right. Would you agree that we have the worst set of coinage
> that you have ever seen?
>
Not at all. How about Spain a few years ago, when they had three
different sets of coins in circulation simultaneously - old Franco
coins, first-run Juan Carlos coins, and Olympic coins, all of them with
markedly different sizes and shapes for the same denomination? Or how
about US coins, which look like they were manufactured from scrap metal,
or the Canadian doubloon, which looks like a carnival token? Since the
switch to decimal currency I've never thought of UK coins as being odd.
KHann
Donna Richoux
> I (Richard Fontana) wrote:
> [about having been familiar with the following child-rhyme in
> 1970s New York:]
> >>>Chitty Chitty Bang Bang sittin' on a fence
> >>>Tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents.
>
1. I have no recollection of the rhyme from my own childhood.
2. Some rhyme about Chinamen, probably this one, was discussed here in
a.u.e two or three years ago, so Deja.com should turn up some additional
cites.
3. None of the four Opie books of children's folklore that I own happen
to discuss it.
4. We used to own a copy of Fleming's "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" but we
appear to have given it away again (no one here liked it much). It might
give some clues as to why that particular name was chosen for the
automobile. It could have both been a standard nonsense phrase and
reminiscent of the sound of the car -- something like "Hickory Dickory
Dock."
--
Best --- Donna Richoux
M.J.Powell
<perch...@aol.com> writes
>Mike wrote:
>>From: "M.J.Powell" mi...@pickmere.demon.co.uk
>>Date: 3/22/00 11:40 AM Eastern Standard Time
>>Message-id: <nqL7wJAE...@pickmere.demon.co.uk>
>>
>>
>>>I never heard that before, but I can sympathise, having recently returned
>>from
>>>Britain with a mess of change I didn't spend because I didn't want to waste
>>>everybody's time while I figured out what I was looking at.
>>
>>Mess is right. Would you agree that we have the worst set of coinage
>>that you have ever seen?
>
>and France. I can't say why that is. Probably some accidental similarity or
>dis- with American coins that cheats or rewards my expectations. We don't have
>a dollar, for one thing (I know, but you never see them). It always takes me a
>day or two to stop reaching for a bill every time, and by that time my pants
>are down around my knees from the weight. Maybe I should just start carrying a
>purse like Garry does.
Hehe! In my back pocket now I have 4 notes and 24 coins of 7 different
denominations.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
M.J.Powell
<chr...@gofree.indigo.ie> writes
>>Britain with a mess of change I didn't spend because I didn't want to waste
>>everybody's time while I figured out what I was looking at.
>
>have is to just lay them on the counter and let the shopkeeper figure
>`em out. I only one I recognise for sure is that sexy little pound
>coin.
You haven't seen our 2 pound coin? The two-tone thing?
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
M.J.Powell
<re...@columbia.edu> writes
>Darrell Fuhriman writes:
>>Bun Mui <Bun...@my-Dejanews.com> writes:
>[...]
>>> Only derogatory if this is used.-
>>>
>>> "C____y, C____y, C____man sitting on a bench trying to make a dollar
>>> out of 15 cents."
>>>
>>> Anybody know when, were, and how this derogatory sentence originated
>>> from in English usage?
>>
>>I've never heard that doggerel before
>[...]
>
>I am hesitant to post something serious on a Bun Mui thread, or to
>several child folklore scholars on the newsgroup) the rhyme I remember
>being used when I was a child (New York, 1970s) was:
>
>Tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents.
>
>
>I used to wonder about what this could mean. I and probably most
>contemporary children were very familiar with the popular
>children's book by Ian Fleming, _Chitty Chitty Bang Bang_, which (IIRC)
>was about a sentient and technologically advanced British automobile
>and the adventures of the British family that owned it. The car was so
>named after the sound that its motor made. I understand that the story
>was made into a Disney movie starring Dick Van Dyke, but I've never seen it.
>I assumed that the rhyme was just a bit of nonsense verse inspired by the
>title of the book.
>
>older derogatory version of this rhyme, referring to "Chinaman". I searched
>a bit on Google and found sources confirming the existence of derogatory
>anti-Chinese rhymes similar to the one reported by Bun Mui. I have found
Policeman in court giving evidence of what he saw from behind a curtain
about Chinese illegal gambling:
Q. 'How did you see what you have described'?
A. 'Through a chink in the curtain, Sir'.
(Uproar in court)
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
James Follett
<slrn8djekl...@localhost.localdomain>
re...@columbia.edu "Richard Fontana" wrote:
>This still seems possible, even if the Chitty Chitty Bang Bang rhyme
>dates from the 1940s or earlier. But another possibility is that
>the derogatory rhyme is younger than the non-derogatory one.
Probably even earlier. The 1930s. Chappie used to race a
such-named beast at Brooklands, Weybridge, Surrey UK.
--
James Follett -- novelist http://www.davew.demon.co.uk
Bun Mui
>You haven't seen our 2 pound coin? The two-tone thing?
You haven't seen our polar bear?
Comments?
Bun Mui
Mosin Nagant
> trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents."
>
> Anybody know when, were, and how this derogatory
> sentence originated from in English usage?
"Chinky, chinky" refers to the sound made by coins jingled in a purse. The
onomatopoeic word "chink" has been around for some time:
Let's be jovial, fill our glasses;
Madness 'tis for us to think
How the world is ruled by asses,
And the wise are swayed by chink.
-- "Charms of Melody", Dublin (1810)
- | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | -
"With my cross-bow
I shot the Albatross"
- | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | -
M.J.Powell
Dejanews.com> writes
She has more dignity.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Evan Kirshenbaum
> > "C____y, C____y, C____man sitting on a bench
> > trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents."
> >
> > Anybody know when, were, and how this derogatory
> > sentence originated from in English usage?
>
> "Chinky, chinky" refers to the sound made by coins jingled in a
> purse. The onomatopoeic word "chink" has been around for some time:
>
> Let's be jovial, fill our glasses;
> Madness 'tis for us to think
> How the world is ruled by asses,
> And the wise are swayed by chink.
> -- "Charms of Melody", Dublin (1810)
According to MWCD10, the word, while described as "imitative",
originally referred to the coins themselves rather than to the sound.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |This case--and I must be careful
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |not to fall into Spooner's trap
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |here--concerns a group of warring
|bankers.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
b
khann <khann....@this.address.ca> wrote in message
news:38DA04...@this.address.ca...
> M.J.Powell wrote:
> >
> > snip
> >
> > >I never heard that before, but I can sympathise, having recently
returned from
> > >Britain with a mess of change I didn't spend because I didn't want to
waste
> > >everybody's time while I figured out what I was looking at.
> >
> > that you have ever seen?
> >
>
> different sets of coins in circulation simultaneously - old Franco
> coins, first-run Juan Carlos coins, and Olympic coins, all of them with
> markedly different sizes and shapes for the same denomination? Or how
> about US coins, which look like they were manufactured from scrap metal,
> or the Canadian doubloon, which looks like a carnival token? Since the
> switch to decimal currency I've never thought of UK coins as being odd.
>
> KHann
I suppose no one thinks of their own native currency as being odd. The
exception being
our new American bills. Everyone thinks that they look like toy money (or
forign money).
By Canadian doubloon, do you mean that $2 coin?
Andre Proulx
b <c_a_p_t...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8be97t$uvf$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
$1 coin (so named because a loon is depicted on it).
André Proulx
khann
>
> khann <khann....@this.address.ca>
>
> [...]
> > Not at all. How about Spain a few years ago, when they had three
> > different sets of coins in circulation simultaneously - old Franco
> > coins, first-run Juan Carlos coins, and Olympic coins, all of them with
> > markedly different sizes and shapes for the same denomination? Or how
> > about US coins, which look like they were manufactured from scrap metal,
> > or the Canadian doubloon, which looks like a carnival token? Since the
> > switch to decimal currency I've never thought of UK coins as being odd.
>
> exception being
> our new American bills. Everyone thinks that they look like toy money (or
> forign money).
But, they _are_ foreign money.
> By Canadian doubloon, do you mean that $2 coin?
I do, it looks terrible! "Doubloon" is one of the several competing
unofficial names, but I fear that it is too logical and historical to
catch on. I can't wait to see what you Yanks come up with as street
names for the Sacajawea dollar. I'll bet that "squawlar" appears at some
point. That would likely kill it faster than a "Carter quarter".
KHann
Evan Kirshenbaum
> I do, it looks terrible! "Doubloon" is one of the several competing
> unofficial names, but I fear that it is too logical and historical
> to catch on. I can't wait to see what you Yanks come up with as
> street names for the Sacajawea dollar.
We'd have to see them first. They've been out for what?, a month?,
and I have yet to see one or talked to anybody who's mentioned seeing
one.
> I'll bet that "squawlar" appears at some point. That would likely
> kill it faster than a "Carter quarter".
In any case, we don't seem to be in the habit of using unofficial
names for our currency anymore, even in informal speech. It's pretty
much "penny", "nickel", "dime", "quarter", "one (dollar bill)", "five
(dollar bill)", etc. The old names like "fiver", "tenner", "sawbuck",
"ten spot", "C note" all sound archaic to me. (I've heard that for
some people "two bits" was only twenty-five cents in the form of a
quarter. For me it was the amount, not the coin.) The only one I
hear much is "yuppie food stamps" for twenty dollar bills, and even
that's a conscious joke.
My guess is that if it's here to stay, it will just be "dollar coin"
until they phase out the dollar bill, at which point it will become
simply a "dollar" or maybe a "buck".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel,
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |can we at least make it round this
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time?
peter
>>The only thing to do with that confusing myriad of coins the British
>>have is to just lay them on the counter and let the shopkeeper figure
>>`em out. I only one I recognise for sure is that sexy little pound
>>coin.
PP That coin is identical at first glance to a Spanish coin, (cien ?) worth
only about 38 British pence
that is brought back from holidays in Spain and deposited in church
collection plates.
This practice moved a vicar to say "Render unto Caesar not Carlos"
Peter P
Mark Brader
> In any case, we don't seem to be in the habit of using unofficial
> names for our currency anymore, even in informal speech. It's pretty
You don't? Then I take it you meant to say "cent", "five cents", "dime",
and "quarter dollar"?
> Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
> HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel,
> 1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |can we at least make it round this
> Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time?
If you have to re-invent your dollar coin by copying ours, couldn't you at
least have NOT made it round?
--
Mark Brader | "...most people who borrow over $1,000,000 from a bank
Toronto | would at least remember the name of the bank."
m...@vex.net | -- Judge Donald Bowman, Tax Court of Canada
My text in this article is in the public domain.
khann
>
> khann <khann....@this.address.ca> writes:
>
> > ... I can't wait to see what you Yanks come up with as
> > street names for the Sacajawea dollar.
>
> My guess is that if it's here to stay, it will just be "dollar coin"
> until they phase out the dollar bill, at which point it will become
> simply a "dollar" or maybe a "buck".
>
Wouldn't it be terribly incorrect to refer to Sacajawea as a buck? I
always thought she was an Indian of the other sex.
KHann
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum writes:
> > In any case, we don't seem to be in the habit of using unofficial
> > names for our currency anymore, even in informal speech. It's
> > pretty much "penny", "nickel", "dime", "quarter" ...
>
> You don't? Then I take it you meant to say "cent", "five cents",
> "dime", and "quarter dollar"?
Those are the denominations embossed on the reverse. Looking at the
US Mint web site at
http://www.usmint.gov/circulating/specifications.cfm
I'll have to give you "cent", which is universally "penny" for the
coin (but not the unit), but the others are "nickel", "dime", and
"quarter". "Cent" for "penny" doesn't merely sound "official" to me;
it sounds *wrong*.
According to the mint, the official name of the new coin is the
"golden dollar", to distinguish it from the "dollar". We'll see how
long that lasts.
I guess that I should amend what I said to "we only have one commonly
used name for each coin and bill".
> > HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel,
> > 1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |can we at least make it round this
> > Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time?
>
> If you have to re-invent your dollar coin by copying ours, couldn't
> you at least have NOT made it round?
Your dollar coin has a Native American woman on the obverse and an
American Eagle on the reverse?
Not making it round would have been interesting, but if you made it
anything other than round or some regular, high-numbered polyhedron,
you'd probably have to reengineer a lot of vending machines and
parking meters.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The plural of "anecdote"
1501 Page Mill Road, Building 1U |is not "data"
Palo Alto, CA 94304