what does "a la" mean?

[bosod...@gmail.com]

as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use, thanks.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <81116a9c-10ce-41c3...@googlegroups.com>,

<bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use, thanks.

It's French, and means "in the style of". Unless you are referring
to one of the many foods that use it in their name - chicken a la
king for example - there is really no reason to use it.

(The first "a" can have a grave accent on it if you want to make it
more authentically French.)

-- Richard

[Horace LaBadie]

In article <81116a9c-10ce-41c3...@googlegroups.com>,
bosod...@gmail.com wrote:

> as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use,
> thanks.

Usually found with the adopted French phrases "mode" (in fashion, or the
specialized pie a la mode, or even more specialized a la king) or
"carte" (on the menu).

[Ross]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 9:54:11 AM UTC+12, bosod...@gmail.com wrote:
> as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use, thanks.

Originally a shortened form of French phrases like "à la manière (de)"
or "à la mode (de)" meaning "in the manner/style (of)". Now no more than
a fancy alternative to "like". Best to avoid if you don't want to risk
sounding like a poseur.

[Pablo]

Or Spanish.

Barbecued belly pork = "panceta a la barbacoa/brasa"

A woman wearing flamenco gear is dressed "a la española"

--

Pablo

http://www.ipernity.com/home/313627
https://paulc.es/
https://paulc.es/piso
https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Peter Moylan]

On 05/05/15 07:54, bosod...@gmail.com wrote:

> as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use, thanks.

He was a regular contributor to this group, long ago.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2015-05-05 07:40:15 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 05/05/15 07:54, bosod...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use, thanks.
>
> He was a regular contributor to this group, long ago.

Or in other words, don't assume people know what the heck your query is
about if you don't say in the post itself.


--
athel

[Peter Moylan]

Generally, as I'm sure I've said before, I read the post and don't
notice the header, but in this case the Subject line struck me and I
thought "We haven't seen a1a here for a long time".

The most confusing postings, of course, are those when half the sentence
is in the header and the other half is in the body.

[Derek Turner]

On Mon, 04 May 2015 14:54:08 -0700, bosodeniro wrote:

> as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use,
> thanks.

For some obscure reason in the USA 'a la mode' simply means 'with ice
cream'. I had to ask when I saw it on a menu. Go figure, as they might
say :)

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <cqrqst...@mid.individual.net>,

Whoever initiated that particular style or fashion has long since been
forgotten.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 1:31:41 AM UTC-6, Pablo wrote:
> Ross wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 9:54:11 AM UTC+12, bosod...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use,
> >> thanks.
> >
> > Originally a shortened form of French phrases like "à la manière (de)"
> > or "à la mode (de)" meaning "in the manner/style (of)". Now no more than
> > a fancy alternative to "like". Best to avoid if you don't want to risk
> > sounding like a poseur.
>
> Or Spanish.
>
> Barbecued belly pork = "panceta a la barbacoa/brasa"
>
> A woman wearing flamenco gear is dressed "a la española"

In New Mexican Spanish "¡A la!" (accent on the "la") means something like
"Holy cow!" It's short for "¡A la verga!" which literally means "to the
dick" (I'm not making this up, folks) but I'd translate as "Holy shit!"

--
Jerry Friedman

[Pablo]

Got this from the DRAE:

verga.

1. interj. vulg. El Salv. y Ven. U. para expresar sorpresa, protesta,
disgusto o rechazo.

[R H Draney]

r...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote in news:a-la-mode-20150505174836
@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de:

> wol...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) writes:
>>Whoever initiated that particular style or fashion has long since been
>>forgotten.
>

> It probably comes from »Pie a la Mode«, and there's an
> extensive discussion about who invented Pie a la Mode.
> Putting a scoop of ice cream on pie or tart was "modern"
> at when Pie a la Mode was invented.

And then there's the magic phrase favored by Muppet magician The Amazing
Mumford: "A la peanut butter sandwiches!"...r

[bosod...@gmail.com]

a cappella?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 5:11:59 PM UTC-4, bosod...@gmail.com wrote:

> a cappella?

It's Italian for 'chapel style'. In contemporary musical practice, it means
vocal music without instrumental accompaniment.

[Guy Barry]

bosod...@gmail.com wrote in message
news:01d39083-034b-4b52...@googlegroups.com...
>
>a cappella?

Well, what about it? (And yes, I did read the subject line.)

--
Guy Barry

[Peter Moylan]

You're supposed to sing the subject line, unaccompanied.

[bosod...@gmail.com]

well since you asked where's the la?

[Guy Barry]

bosod...@gmail.com wrote in message
news:c4ff8f73-78c9-4d4e...@googlegroups.com...

>
>On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 1:18:05 AM UTC-7, Guy Barry wrote:
>> bosod...@gmail.com wrote in message
>> news:01d39083-034b-4b52...@googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> >a cappella?
>>
>> Well, what about it? (And yes, I did read the subject line.)

>well since you asked where's the la?

Oh, you're referring to *that* thread, are you? It's customary to post
one's responses in the same thread as the original post.

But since you asked, "a cappella" comes from Italian and has no bearing on
the matter.

--
Guy Barry

[Peter Moylan]

On 06/05/15 20:15, Guy Barry wrote:
> bosod...@gmail.com wrote in message
> news:c4ff8f73-78c9-4d4e...@googlegroups.com...
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 1:18:05 AM UTC-7, Guy Barry wrote:
>>> bosod...@gmail.com wrote in message
>>> news:01d39083-034b-4b52...@googlegroups.com...
>>> >
>>> >a cappella?
>>>
>>> Well, what about it? (And yes, I did read the subject line.)
>
>> well since you asked where's the la?
>
> Oh, you're referring to *that* thread, are you? It's customary to post
> one's responses in the same thread as the original post.

In fact it is the same thread. Of course it's confusing when a sentence
is split between the header and the message body, but since Bozo has a
history of doing that I assume he's deliberately baiting us.

> But since you asked, "a cappella" comes from Italian and has no bearing
> on the matter.

If you really want a "la", "alla cappella" means "in the manner of the
chapel". I was surprised to discover that "alla cappella" is the
original form, and that it was later shortened to "a cappella".

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/6/15 5:22 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 06/05/15 20:15, Guy Barry wrote:
>> bosod...@gmail.com wrote in message
>> news:c4ff8f73-78c9-4d4e...@googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 1:18:05 AM UTC-7, Guy Barry wrote:
>>>> bosod...@gmail.com wrote in message
>>>> news:01d39083-034b-4b52...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> a cappella?
>>>>
>>>> Well, what about it? (And yes, I did read the subject line.)
>>
>>> well since you asked where's the la?
>>
>> Oh, you're referring to *that* thread, are you? It's customary to post
>> one's responses in the same thread as the original post.
>
> In fact it is the same thread. Of course it's confusing when a sentence
> is split between the header and the message body, but since Bozo has a
> history of doing that I assume he's deliberately baiting us.

...

I take Bozo's posts as humorous and respond in the same way if I think
of something.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Joe Fineman]

It's also English, listed without any indication of foreignness in all
English dictionaries that I have seen. In the US, at any rate, the
spelling with the grave accent is standard, probably because the bare
"a" is an English word; but to italicize the phrase as if it were
unassimilated French would be pretentious.

Its origin as a shortening of "à la mode de" should be recalled,
however, by a few people with gender on the brain who think that it
should be changed to "au" to agree with masculine objects. That shows
ignorance of two languages at once. (I once even saw "à le", in print,
in the heading of a recipe.)
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: Sometimes I think I am happier than I think I am. :||

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Yes, but I don't think "a la mode" meaning "with ice cream" has
anything to do with French, so I think writing it with à would look
silly rather than authentic.


--
athel

[Adam Funk]

Ooh ooh! I think that "ice cream" thing has been done here before,
but I can't rememember what the conclusion was. Maybe there wasn't
one?


--
I only regret that I have but one shirt to give for my country.
--- Abbie Hoffman

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/5/15 12:15 PM, Pablo wrote:
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 1:31:41 AM UTC-6, Pablo wrote:
>>> Ross wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 9:54:11 AM UTC+12, bosod...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to
>>>>> use, thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Originally a shortened form of French phrases like "à la manière (de)"
>>>> or "à la mode (de)" meaning "in the manner/style (of)". Now no more
>>>> than a fancy alternative to "like". Best to avoid if you don't want to
>>>> risk sounding like a poseur.
>>>
>>> Or Spanish.
>>>
>>> Barbecued belly pork = "panceta a la barbacoa/brasa"
>>>
>>> A woman wearing flamenco gear is dressed "a la española"
>>
>> In New Mexican Spanish "¡A la!" (accent on the "la") means something like
>> "Holy cow!" It's short for "¡A la verga!" which literally means "to the
>> dick" (I'm not making this up, folks) but I'd translate as "Holy shit!"
>>
>
> Got this from the DRAE:
>
> verga.
>
> 1. interj. vulg. El Salv. y Ven. U. para expresar sorpresa, protesta,
> disgusto o rechazo.

Thanks. I'll bet it's used in some places in between, too.

--
Jerry Friedman

[bosod...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 8:00:04 AM UTC-7, Joe Fineman wrote:
> ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes:
>
> > In article <81116a9c-10ce-41c3...@googlegroups.com>,
> > <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to
> >>use, thanks.
> >
> > It's French, and means "in the style of". Unless you are referring
> > to one of the many foods that use it in their name - chicken a la
> > king for example - there is really no reason to use it.
> >
> > (The first "a" can have a grave accent on it if you want to make it
> > more authentically French.)
>
> It's also English, listed without any indication of foreignness in all
> English dictionaries that I have seen. In the US, at any rate, the
> spelling with the grave accent is standard, probably because the bare
> "a" is an English word; but to italicize the phrase as if it were
> unassimilated French would be pretentious.
>
>

mastering pretentious is the only good reason to be here

[Guy Barry]

"Peter Moylan" wrote in message news:mictgc$ap7$1...@dont-email.me...

>
>On 06/05/15 20:15, Guy Barry wrote:
>> bosod...@gmail.com wrote in message
>> news:c4ff8f73-78c9-4d4e...@googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 1:18:05 AM UTC-7, Guy Barry wrote:
>>>> bosod...@gmail.com wrote in message
>>>> news:01d39083-034b-4b52...@googlegroups.com...
>>>> >
>>>> >a cappella?
>>>>
>>>> Well, what about it? (And yes, I did read the subject line.)
>>
>>> well since you asked where's the la?
>>
>> Oh, you're referring to *that* thread, are you? It's customary to post
>> one's responses in the same thread as the original post.
>
>In fact it is the same thread.

My newsreader displays it as a separate thread. I assume it creates a new
thread when the subject line changes.

--
Guy Barry

[Peter Moylan]

You might find that that's an option in your newsreader; some
newsreaders do have that option. Personally, I prefer to keep track of
threads as defined by the message headers. It can be annoying to
discover that a thread has been broken because someone changed the
Subject header.

[Robert Bannister]

Aren't the cooking terms meant to mean "the way the [tradename]'s wife
cooks it?
à la meunière - the way the miller's wife does it;
à la jardinière - the way the gardener's wife does it.

It's tempting, but I presume it's really à la manière/mode/façon de la
jardinière which means it's always going to be "la".

--
Robert Bannister - 1940-71 SE England
1972-now W Australia

[Robert Bannister]

"pretentiousness?" he asked loftily.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Robert Bannister skrev:

> Aren't the cooking terms meant to mean "the way the [tradename]'s wife
> cooks it?
> à la meunière - the way the miller's wife does it;
> à la jardinière - the way the gardener's wife does it.

Ris a la mande - rice the way almonds make them?

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[CDB]

On 06/05/2015 12:38 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> Pablo wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:

>>> Pablo wrote:

>>>> Ross wrote:
>>>>> bosod...@gmail.com wrote:

>>>>>> as in making reference to something, and when is it
>>>>>> appropriate to use, thanks.

>>>>> Originally a shortened form of French phrases like "à la
>>>>> manière (de)" or "à la mode (de)" meaning "in the
>>>>> manner/style (of)". Now no more than a fancy alternative to
>>>>> "like". Best to avoid if you don't want to risk sounding like
>>>>> a poseur.

>>>> Or Spanish.

>>>> Barbecued belly pork = "panceta a la barbacoa/brasa"

>>>> A woman wearing flamenco gear is dressed "a la española"

>>> In New Mexican Spanish "¡A la!" (accent on the "la") means
>>> something like

>>> "Holy cow!" It's short for "¡A la verga!" which literally means
>>> "to the dick" (I'm not making this up, folks) but I'd translate
>>> as "Holy shit!"

>> Got this from the DRAE:

>> verga.

>> 1. interj. vulg. El Salv. y Ven. U. para expresar sorpresa,
>> protesta, disgusto o rechazo.

> Thanks. I'll bet it's used in some places in between, too.

I have long thought that "verga" at one point must have meant or implied
"Cross" (rod-rood); the shift to the anatomical meaning may have been a
kind of mincing (assuming blasphemy gets worse whippings than
vulgarity). Maybe, though, the literal meaning of "rod" may be a
factor: "a la verga" as in "al paredon".

I don't recall hearing any sexual or religious use of "verge" (or
"varge") in Canadian French*, but "varger", for example, is "to beat".

*(not conclusive)

[Ross]

My small Spanish-English dictionary translates "verga" as "yard" -- interestingly, a term which has been used in English for "penis".

The source must surely be Latin virga "rod, staff, walking-stick".
We are dealing with fairly well-trodden paths of semantic change here.
Whether "virga/verga" might have taken a side-track through religious
territory as you suggest, I have no idea.

[Jerry Friedman]

<smile>

(Only rice is "it", not "them".)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 9:00:04 AM UTC-6, Joe Fineman wrote:
> ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes:
>
> > In article <81116a9c-10ce-41c3...@googlegroups.com>,
> > <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to
> >>use, thanks.
> >
> > It's French, and means "in the style of". Unless you are referring
> > to one of the many foods that use it in their name - chicken a la
> > king for example - there is really no reason to use it.
> >
> > (The first "a" can have a grave accent on it if you want to make it
> > more authentically French.)
>
> It's also English, listed without any indication of foreignness in all
> English dictionaries that I have seen. In the US, at any rate, the
> spelling with the grave accent is standard, probably because the bare
> "a" is an English word; but to italicize the phrase as if it were
> unassimilated French would be pretentious.
>
> Its origin as a shortening of "à la mode de" should be recalled,
> however, by a few people with gender on the brain who think that it
> should be changed to "au" to agree with masculine objects. That shows
> ignorance of two languages at once.

I've never been able to parse "coq au vin" or "tarte aux pommes".

> (I once even saw "à le", in print,
> in the heading of a recipe.)

One of the useful phrases my middle-school French teacher had on the
board was "Quelle horreur!"

--
Jerry Friedman

[Robert Bannister]

Makes sense to me, although I think of the Allemanni around Stuttgart.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <ce7e6b06-9c55-4848...@googlegroups.com>,

Today, on NPR one of the articles was on Tacos Al Pastor (Tacos in the
style of the shepard)

Part of the history traced them back to lamb roasted on a spit, carved
off and put in pita bread. People who ate that migrated to Mexico in
late 17th, early 18th C and lamb was replaced by pork and the taco
resulted.

--
charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <cr08b4...@mid.individual.net>,

Pretentious, moi?

--
sharl

[Peter Moylan]

Ą l'oubliette, gentille oubliette.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 5/7/15 6:06 PM, Stefan Ram wrote:

> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> I've never been able to parse "coq au vin" or "tarte aux pommes".
>

> « au »=« à le »
>
> « le »=« déterminant marquant un nom masculin singulier »
>
> « Je mange du flan au chocolat. »
>
> « aux »=« à les »
>
> « les »=« pluriel de le ou la »
>
> Dans le cas de « à la mode », ce qui suit est applicable:
>
> « à »=« préposition, introduit une locution adverbiale
> comme synonyme de "selon", "suivant". »

Tout ça je savait déjà

> Mais dans le cas de« à le vin »ou« à les pommes », ce qui
> suit est peut-être pertinent:
>
> « à »=« indiquant l'accompagnement, et peut se
> remplacer par "avec" »

But not that. It's appealingly simple. Sometimes "à" means "with".

Merci (or do I mean "Danke"?).

--
Jerry Friedman

[Snidely]

Robert Bannister noted that:

> On 7/05/2015 4:32 pm, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Robert Bannister skrev:

>>> Aren't the cooking terms meant to mean "the way the [tradename]'s wife
>>> cooks it?
>>> à la meunière - the way the miller's wife does it;
>>> à la jardinière - the way the gardener's wife does it.
>>
>> Ris a la mande - rice the way almonds make them?
>>
> Makes sense to me, although I think of the Allemanni around Stuttgart.

Do they have a Dean?

/dps

--
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"

" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
-njm

[Mark Brader]

>> For some obscure reason in the USA 'a la mode' simply means 'with ice
>> cream'. I had to ask when I saw it on a menu. Go figure, as they might
>> say :)
>
> Whoever initiated that particular style or fashion has long since been
> forgotten.

Could it be that it's not a truncation of "a la mode de (something)",
but means "in fashion" in the generic sense? Pie served in the way
that's in fashion? (Or was in fashion, that is, in whatever year the
term was invented.)
--
Mark Brader | "How, you may ask, did the mind of man ever excogitate
Toronto | anything so false and foolish? The answer is that the
m...@vex.net | mind of man had nothing to do with it..." --A.E. Housman

My text in this article is in the public domain.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <34mdnZplJf9CxdPI...@vex.net>,

Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:

>Could it be that it's not a truncation of "a la mode de (something)",
>but means "in fashion" in the generic sense? Pie served in the way
>that's in fashion? (Or was in fashion, that is, in whatever year the
>term was invented.)

The OED has this to say:

Development in French.

In French, phrases with a la sometimes have a feminine noun showing
essentially its usual meaning, as e.g. a la carte, lit. 'according
to the menu', a la mode, lit. 'according to (the) fashion', a la
debandade, lit. 'at a stampede', a la fourchette, lit. 'with the
fork'. From such expressions appear to have developed a group of
constructions where a la appears to have become a lexical unit in
its own right, with the sense 'in the style of (a specified person
or thing)', and a grammatically feminine form (to agree with la) is
either selected or created to follow it. Compare the group of
expressions where a la is followed by a use as noun of the feminine
form of an adjective designating a country of origin, e.g. a la
francaise, a l'anglaise, a la russe, etc., which have the meaning
'in the French style', etc. (rather than 'in the style of a
Frenchwoman'); these may perhaps result originally from shortening
of phrases where the feminine adjective modified the noun mode
style, manner, fashion, e.g. a la mode francaise. Compare also
examples where a feminine form is created from a masculine noun, as
e.g. a la garconne (of dress) in the style of a boy, a la hussarde
(of dress, of a dance) in the style of a hussar, and uses with the
name of a masculine individual, as e.g. a la Napoleon. Compare
Italian alla.

-- Richard

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On 5 May 2015 12:20:45 GMT, Derek Turner <frd...@suremail.je> wrote:

>On Mon, 04 May 2015 14:54:08 -0700, bosodeniro wrote:
>
>> as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use,
>> thanks.
>

>For some obscure reason in the USA 'a la mode' simply means 'with ice
>cream'. I had to ask when I saw it on a menu. Go figure, as they might
>say :)

Not in all contexts. 'Beef a la Mode' does not involve ice cream.

Recipe in the New York Times:
http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/4403-beef-a-la-mode

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Mark Brader]

Mark Brader:

>> Could it be that it's not a truncation of "a la mode de (something)",
>> but means "in fashion" in the generic sense? Pie served in the way
>> that's in fashion? (Or was in fashion, that is, in whatever year the
>> term was invented.)

Richard Tobin:
> The OED has this to say...

But that passage does not mention ice cream, which is the aspect of
"a la mode" that I was talking about.
--
Mark Brader I'm not pompous; I'm pedantic.
Toronto Let me explain it to you.
m...@vex.net --Mary Kay Kare

[J. J. Lodder]

Horace LaBadie <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:

> In article <81116a9c-10ce-41c3...@googlegroups.com>,

> bosod...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use,
> > thanks.
>

> Usually found with the adopted French phrases "mode" (in fashion, or the
> specialized pie a la mode, or even more specialized a la king) or
> "carte" (on the menu).

The menu is not a la carte,

Jan

[Mike Barnes]

I don't understand.

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

[Robert Bannister]

In German, I think French and perhaps Dutch, the word that is like
"menu" means set meal. This, as we know, is quite different in English.

[Peter Moylan]

In English it is. The English translation of "la carte" in "the menu",
and the translation of "le menu" is something like "today's specials".
This can confuse travellers, who discover that "menu" has a different
meaning in different countries.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Robert Bannister skrev:

> In German, I think French and perhaps Dutch, the word that is
> like "menu" means set meal. This, as we know, is quite
> different in English.

According to my Danish-German dictionary "Menü" means the same in
German as the Danish word "menu". It's either a set meal or a
list of dishes to be served or to choose from. It is also used
for the menu of a website or a computer program.

I don't know about French or Dutch.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[J. J. Lodder]

In France, the restaurant has a 'carte'.
(which is the list of all they can offer)
You can order a la carte, that is, items from the carte.

The restaurant usually also offers menus,
which is a (often cheaper) combination of items.
The menu items may also be on the carte,
and they may also be a la carte items in smaller portions.
Some menu items may not be available a la carte.
Generally speaking ordering a menu costs less
than the same items ordered a la carte.

Observation from a French friend:
Orders menus -> is with wife.
Orders a la carte -> is with mistress,

Jan

[Mike Barnes]

J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Mike Barnes <mikeba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> Horace LaBadie <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <81116a9c-10ce-41c3...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> bosod...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use,
>>>>> thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Usually found with the adopted French phrases "mode" (in fashion, or the
>>>> specialized pie a la mode, or even more specialized a la king) or
>>>> "carte" (on the menu).
>>>
>>> The menu is not a la carte,
>>
>> I don't understand.
>
> In France, the restaurant has a 'carte'.
> (which is the list of all they can offer)
> You can order a la carte, that is, items from the carte.
>
> The restaurant usually also offers menus,
> which is a (often cheaper) combination of items.
> The menu items may also be on the carte,
> and they may also be a la carte items in smaller portions.
> Some menu items may not be available a la carte.
> Generally speaking ordering a menu costs less
> than the same items ordered a la carte.

Yes, but that's French. English, which is what we were talking about, is
different. You surely know that, so I don't understand your remark.

[snide...@gmail.com]

But we do have a similar split in how things can be ordered;
we just don't call it the same thing.
A menu for the sort of places I go to
usually has both individual items (ordering a la carte)
or package deals (entree, sides, and maybe dessert).
Sometimes those package deals are called "specials",
and I think "blue plate special" is kind of a daily thing at small diners
featuring whatever the chef turned up at the market that day,
and not known 24 hours in advance.
Isn't it usually targeted at the lunch crowd?

"Prie fixe" has been turning up around here,
usually in the context of expensive restaurants,
and often as part of a "Taste of LA" (or "of OC" closer to me) event.
Sometimes described as "a set menu".

/dps

[CDB]

On 13/05/2015 2:27 PM, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> Mike Barnes wrote:
>> J. J. Lodder wrote:

[alla the dim sum are a la cart]

>>> The restaurant usually also offers menus, which is a (often
>>> cheaper) combination of items. The menu items may also be on the
>>> carte, and they may also be a la carte items in smaller
>>> portions. Some menu items may not be available a la carte.
>>> Generally speaking ordering a menu costs less than the same items
>>> ordered a la carte.

>> Yes, but that's French. English, which is what we were talking
>> about, is different. You surely know that, so I don't understand
>> your remark.

> But we do have a similar split in how things can be ordered; we just
> don't call it the same thing. A menu for the sort of places I go to
> usually has both individual items (ordering a la carte) or package
> deals (entree, sides, and maybe dessert). Sometimes those package
> deals are called "specials", and I think "blue plate special" is kind
> of a daily thing at small diners featuring whatever the chef turned
> up at the market that day, and not known 24 hours in advance. Isn't
> it usually targeted at the lunch crowd?

> "Prie fixe" has been turning up around here, usually in the context
> of expensive restaurants, and often as part of a "Taste of LA" (or
> "of OC" closer to me) event. Sometimes described as "a set menu".

I would describe it as your only hope of getting the waiter's attention.
Try, try, try again.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Robert Bannister:

I thought that this is (also) called "set menu" in English. At
least one dictionary knows the term:

| "a set menu or an à la carte choice", "I'll have the set menu."

<http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/set-menu>

--
Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 13 May 2015 16:46:22 -0400, Oliver Cromm
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Robert Bannister:
>
>> On 12/05/2015 11:32 pm, Mike Barnes wrote:
>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>> Horace LaBadie <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <81116a9c-10ce-41c3...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> bosod...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use,
>>>>>> thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Usually found with the adopted French phrases "mode" (in fashion, or the
>>>>> specialized pie a la mode, or even more specialized a la king) or
>>>>> "carte" (on the menu).
>>>>
>>>> The menu is not a la carte,
>>>
>>> I don't understand.
>>>
>> In German, I think French and perhaps Dutch, the word that is like
>> "menu" means set meal. This, as we know, is quite different in English.
>
>I thought that this is (also) called "set menu" in English. At
>least one dictionary knows the term:
>
>| "a set menu or an à la carte choice", "I'll have the set menu."
>

That may be the English term, but that's not what restaurants offer.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando FL

[Mike Barnes]

snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> "Prie fixe" has been turning up around here,
> usually in the context of expensive restaurants,
> and often as part of a "Taste of LA" (or "of OC" closer to me) event.

Not "prix fixe"?

[Peter Moylan]

<grin>

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 13 May 2015 16:46:22 -0400, Oliver Cromm
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

That may be the term in English, but it's not what restaurants offer
in the US. You won't see "set menu" in a US restaurant. What you
will see is a set menu listed by items and a price for the set menu in
some restaurants, but you won't see it identified by that term.

If it's identified by a term at all, the term is Prix Fixe. That term
is used because it's supposed to give the diner an impression that he
or she is in such a classy place that foreign words are used. It's a
status thing. "Set menu" has no class or panache as a term.

The set menu concept is not particularly popular except at holidays.
We just celebrated "Mother's Day" here in the US, and there were all
sorts of set menu offerings advertised. Most of them by the
restaurants in the resort hotels down in the Disney area.

However, prix fixe is the standard in some of the Disney resort
hotels. The Swan and the Dolphin, for example. Orlando has been
trying a "Magical Dining Month" in Septembers where several
restaurants in town offer a prix fixe at $33 per person.

http://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/dining/enjoy-prix-fixe-meals-across-orlando-for-33-during-september/2194527

This ad brings up another term: "table d'hote". I've only seen that
once, it was at a very expensive older hotel in Sea Island, Georgia.
The hotel was "American Plan" (all meals included in the room rate)
for the guests staying there, but non-guests could dine there. Very
pricey place. The only reason I was there was that my company was
exhibiting at a meeting of neurosurgeons.

Now that I've said that you won't see "set menu" in the US, I fully
expect 117 examples of restaurants that use that term brought to my
attention.

[Katy Jennison]

"Table d'hôte" used to be the usual term in the UK, but it seems to
have given way recently to "set lunch". Two restaurants in Oxford (the
first two I checked, and I haven't checked any further) do a "set lunch
and early supper" menu for a fixed price. They don't do a set menu for
dinner.

--
Katy Jennison

[Robert Bannister]

In older times, the two items would have read:
"table d'hôte or à la carte"
I seem to remember seeing this at the Lyons Corner House in Coventry
Street and was very proud of myself each time I saw it, for knowing what
it meant. I'm not sure whether my mother took me there often or whether
it stuck in my mind as being a far posher place than even existed near home.

[Robert Bannister]

Many restaurants do, but they usually have a different term for the set
menu. In this country, it's often "banquet" or some other silly word
that won't come into my head right now. This is usually hidden away
right at the back of the menu (carte) and is rarely available for a
single diner, ie two or more people only.

[Robert Bannister]

On 14/05/2015 6:09 am, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Now that I've said that you won't see "set menu" in the US, I fully
> expect 117 examples of restaurants that use that term brought to my
> attention.

I realise now that you were talking about the term "set menu" and not
about whether such a thing was served. I don't think I've seen the term
used in restaurants in the UK or here either, but it is a convenient way
to talk about whatever term they do use, which may vary from restaurant
to restaurant, town to town, state to state.

[snide...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 3:07:52 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 14/05/15 06:41, CDB wrote:
> > On 13/05/2015 2:27 PM, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> "Prie fixe" has been turning up around here, usually in the context
> >> of expensive restaurants, and often as part of a "Taste of LA" (or
> >> "of OC" closer to me) event. Sometimes described as "a set menu".
> >
> > I would describe it as your only hope of getting the waiter's attention.
> > Try, try, try again.
>
> <grin>

Crumpled to my knees trying to figure out how much it will cost me.

/dps "aside from the snickers"

[Dr Nick]

Robert Bannister <rob...@clubtelco.com> writes:

> On 14/05/2015 6:09 am, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> Now that I've said that you won't see "set menu" in the US, I fully
>> expect 117 examples of restaurants that use that term brought to my
>> attention.
>
> I realise now that you were talking about the term "set menu" and not
> about whether such a thing was served. I don't think I've seen the
> term used in restaurants in the UK or here either, but it is a
> convenient way to talk about whatever term they do use, which may vary
> from restaurant to restaurant, town to town, state to state.

"Set Menu" is quite common in Chinese restaurants - there will often be
more than one complete meal listed at the back of the menu and labelled
"Set Menu A for 2" and similar.

A quick web search on >Set Menu B< throws up lots of examples, Chinese
but also Thai and just about everything else in smaller doses and from a
variety of countries (although no US ones on a quick skim of the top
results).

[J. J. Lodder]

You mean we are discussing English usage here, in this group?
You can't be serious.

And anyway, this French usage is culinary,
so I claim immunity,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

Another piece of pseudo-French.
French restaurants have no such thing,
for (as a consequence of having VAT) everything is 'prix fixe'
and you know it before entering.

> However, prix fixe is the standard in some of the Disney resort
> hotels. The Swan and the Dolphin, for example. Orlando has been
> trying a "Magical Dining Month" in Septembers where several
> restaurants in town offer a prix fixe at $33 per person.

A Disney resort hotel is 'a classy place'?

http://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/dining/enjoy-prix-fixe-meals-a

cross-orlando-for-33-during-september/2194527
>
> This ad brings up another term: "table d'hote". I've only seen that
> once, it was at a very expensive older hotel in Sea Island, Georgia.
> The hotel was "American Plan" (all meals included in the room rate)
> for the guests staying there, but non-guests could dine there. Very
> pricey place. The only reason I was there was that my company was
> exhibiting at a meeting of neurosurgeons.

Also completely non-French.
A French 'table d'hote' is by definition not in a restaurant.
It is in a private bed and breakfast where the hôte does dinners too.
Usually it means that you can eat with the hosts at their own table.
(often on reservation only)
This is only permittted for a small number of guests.
If the hôte regularly does it for more guests
he must become a regular restaurant.
(and submit to more regulations)

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 9:32:04 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> Another piece of pseudo-French.
> French restaurants have no such thing,
> for (as a consequence of having VAT) everything is 'prix fixe'
> and you know it before entering.

What does VAT have to do with offering or not offering the customer the
opportunity to make their own selection of dishes from the menu, rather
than taking the specific number and combination determined by the chef?

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 14 May 2015 15:32:01 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:

>
>> However, prix fixe is the standard in some of the Disney resort
>> hotels. The Swan and the Dolphin, for example. Orlando has been
>> trying a "Magical Dining Month" in Septembers where several
>> restaurants in town offer a prix fixe at $33 per person.
>
>A Disney resort hotel is 'a classy place'?

"Classy" is a term that should be considered as a description of
contrast. The Swan and Dolphin resort hotels at Disney World are
indeed classy compared to the other hotels in the general area.

You can book a room there for 6 day/7 night package that includes
admission to one of the Disney parks each day for $3,134 and find out
if you consider it to be a classy place.

They may not be classy in comparison to some of the finer hotels in
place like NYC or San Francisco, or some of the finer hotels in
Europe, but they are surely more classy than the Motel 6 or Economy
Lodge outside of the Disney gates.

They are also classy in a different sort of way than the classy hotels
in other places. They are set in large lakefront grounds away from
traffic and other city noises. You can leave your room at midnight
and walk along the lakefront or in the expansive grounds and not be
faced with a panhandler, rat, or thug in a hoodie.

[Tony Cooper]

Mr Lodder is making an allusion to the American situation where sales
tax is added to the price of the meal when the check is presented.

The person entering a French restaurant on his side of the ocean can
read the menu in the window that says that a particular offering is X
(units of local money) and know that when he leaves he needs only to
open his snap-top leather coin pouch and remove exactly X (units of
local money) to pay the bill if he orders that offering.

A person entering a French restaurant in the US can read the menu in
the window that says that a particular offering is X (units of local
money), but will find Y (the percent of the local sales tax) added to
the bill in the form of sales tax.

This often greatly disturbs visitors to this country. Doing the
mental math of adding Y (the percent of the local sales tax) to
X(units of local money) is as bothersome to them as corked wine.

This, of course, is not the most serious barrier to enjoyment they
will experience in the evening's dining experience. Z (the amount of
tip they be expected to leave) still faces them.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 14 May 2015 15:32:01 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:

I very rarely eat in restaurants so what follows is not based on recent
personal experience.

This is an example of a "Set Menu".
https://www.benedictshotel.co.uk/MenuDetails.aspx?ID=3

There is a choice of 6 dishes "To Start", 7 "Main Courses" and 4
"Desserts". Each customer chooses 1 dish for each course. The price is
fixed; it doesn't change with what is chosen. I think that is what Tony
Cooper would understand by Prix Fixe.

This restaurant in London, named the "Prix Fixe Brasserie", has an "A La
Carte Menu" and a "Prix Fixe Menu" (a set menu):
http://www.prixfixe.net/pdf/Prix%20Fixe%20A%20La%20Carte%20Menu.pdf

>> However, prix fixe is the standard in some of the Disney resort
>> hotels. The Swan and the Dolphin, for example. Orlando has been
>> trying a "Magical Dining Month" in Septembers where several
>> restaurants in town offer a prix fixe at $33 per person.
>
>A Disney resort hotel is 'a classy place'?
>
>http://www.tampabay.com/things-to-do/food/dining/enjoy-prix-fixe-meals-a
>cross-orlando-for-33-during-september/2194527
>>
>> This ad brings up another term: "table d'hote". I've only seen that
>> once, it was at a very expensive older hotel in Sea Island, Georgia.
>> The hotel was "American Plan" (all meals included in the room rate)
>> for the guests staying there, but non-guests could dine there. Very
>> pricey place. The only reason I was there was that my company was
>> exhibiting at a meeting of neurosurgeons.
>
>Also completely non-French.
>A French 'table d'hote' is by definition not in a restaurant.
>It is in a private bed and breakfast where the hôte does dinners too.
>Usually it means that you can eat with the hosts at their own table.
>(often on reservation only)
>This is only permittted for a small number of guests.
>If the hôte regularly does it for more guests
>he must become a regular restaurant.
>(and submit to more regulations)
>

In English, 'table d'hote' is used in a transferred sense:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/table-d%27h%C3%B4te
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/table-d%27h%C3%B4te

table d'hôte

noun
A restaurant meal offered at a fixed price and with few if any
choices

Origin
Early 17th century: French, literally 'host's table'. The term
originally denoted a table in a hotel or restaurant where all guests
ate together, hence a meal served there at a stated time and for a
fixed price.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Adam Funk]

On 2015-05-14, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> That may be the term in English, but it's not what restaurants offer
>> in the US. You won't see "set menu" in a US restaurant. What you
>> will see is a set menu listed by items and a price for the set menu in
>> some restaurants, but you won't see it identified by that term.
>>
>> If it's identified by a term at all, the term is Prix Fixe. That term
>> is used because it's supposed to give the diner an impression that he
>> or she is in such a classy place that foreign words are used. It's a
>> status thing. "Set menu" has no class or panache as a term.
>>
>> The set menu concept is not particularly popular except at holidays.
>> We just celebrated "Mother's Day" here in the US, and there were all
>> sorts of set menu offerings advertised. Most of them by the
>> restaurants in the resort hotels down in the Disney area.
>
> Another piece of pseudo-French.
> French restaurants have no such thing,

"Putting 'French' in front of toast just makes it sound classy, like
fries or sticking your tongue down someone's throat." --- Larry
Finkelstein

> for (as a consequence of having VAT) everything is 'prix fixe'
> and you know it before entering.

I don't think that's the same issue.


--
The internet is quite simply a glorious place. Where else can you find
bootlegged music and films, questionable women, deep seated xenophobia
and amusing cats all together in the same place? [Tom Belshaw]

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 14 May 2015 16:27:40 +0100, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>There is a choice of 6 dishes "To Start", 7 "Main Courses" and 4
>"Desserts". Each customer chooses 1 dish for each course. The price is
>fixed; it doesn't change with what is chosen. I think that is what Tony
>Cooper would understand by Prix Fixe.

Yes, "prix fixe" in the US means that the cost of your meal is a fixed
amount. There may be choices involved like soup or salad or the type
of soup, and choices of which main course, but the essential point is
that the meal's price will not vary because of those choices.

This doesn't mean that the entire cost of the meal is fixed if you
consider that alcoholic beverages are part of the meal. I've never
seen a prix fixe meal that includes wine.

Oh, well, yes I have. Those Mother's Day fixed price luncheons
sometimes include a Mimosa or a flute of champagne. Just the one.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Tony Cooper:

I see. But it seems to be generally understood, and it is an
English term that uses "menu" not in the "list of foods" meaning,
but in the sense that it has in German: a meal, most likely of
more than one course.

This French restaurant offers a "3 course menu" etc.:
<http://www.leyacawilliamsburg.com/lunch-3-course-menu/>

--
Are you sure your sanity chip is fully screwed in?
-- Kryten to Rimmer (Red Dwarf)

[Oliver Cromm]

* Adam Funk:

> On 2015-05-14, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
>> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> That may be the term in English, but it's not what restaurants offer
>>> in the US. You won't see "set menu" in a US restaurant. What you
>>> will see is a set menu listed by items and a price for the set menu in
>>> some restaurants, but you won't see it identified by that term.
>>>
>>> If it's identified by a term at all, the term is Prix Fixe. That term
>>> is used because it's supposed to give the diner an impression that he
>>> or she is in such a classy place that foreign words are used. It's a
>>> status thing. "Set menu" has no class or panache as a term.
>>>
>>> The set menu concept is not particularly popular except at holidays.
>>> We just celebrated "Mother's Day" here in the US, and there were all
>>> sorts of set menu offerings advertised. Most of them by the
>>> restaurants in the resort hotels down in the Disney area.
>>
>> Another piece of pseudo-French.
>> French restaurants have no such thing,
>
> "Putting 'French' in front of toast just makes it sound classy, like
> fries or

... vanilla or ...

> sticking your tongue down someone's throat." --- Larry
> Finkelstein

But that is the other meaning of "French": "immoral/sex-crazed".
Isn't the traditional French translation for this "anglais"?

--
The bee must not pass judgment on the hive. (Voxish proverb)
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.125

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 14 May 2015 12:26:47 -0400, Oliver Cromm

<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Tony Cooper:
>
>> On Wed, 13 May 2015 16:46:22 -0400, Oliver Cromm
>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>* Robert Bannister:
>>>
>>>> On 12/05/2015 11:32 pm, Mike Barnes wrote:
>>>>> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>> Horace LaBadie <hlab...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <81116a9c-10ce-41c3...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>> bosod...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> as in making reference to something, and when is it appropriate to use,
>>>>>>>> thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Usually found with the adopted French phrases "mode" (in fashion, or the
>>>>>>> specialized pie a la mode, or even more specialized a la king) or
>>>>>>> "carte" (on the menu).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The menu is not a la carte,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't understand.
>>>>>
>>>> In German, I think French and perhaps Dutch, the word that is like
>>>> "menu" means set meal. This, as we know, is quite different in English.
>>>
>>>I thought that this is (also) called "set menu" in English. At
>>>least one dictionary knows the term:
>>>
>>>| "a set menu or an à la carte choice", "I'll have the set menu."
>>
>> That may be the English term, but that's not what restaurants offer.
>
>I see. But it seems to be generally understood,

I'm not sure what post you are responding to. I posted the comment
above in one post that was sent prematurely. In a second post, I
explained that some restaurants here do offer set menus, but the term
"set menu" is not one we use. We understand the concept, and see it
in place, but we use different terms.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <nvre2cx...@news.ducksburg.com>,

Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> On 2015-05-14, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> That may be the term in English, but it's not what restaurants offer
> >> in the US. You won't see "set menu" in a US restaurant. What you
> >> will see is a set menu listed by items and a price for the set menu in
> >> some restaurants, but you won't see it identified by that term.
> >>
> >> If it's identified by a term at all, the term is Prix Fixe. That term
> >> is used because it's supposed to give the diner an impression that he
> >> or she is in such a classy place that foreign words are used. It's a
> >> status thing. "Set menu" has no class or panache as a term.
> >>
> >> The set menu concept is not particularly popular except at holidays.
> >> We just celebrated "Mother's Day" here in the US, and there were all
> >> sorts of set menu offerings advertised. Most of them by the
> >> restaurants in the resort hotels down in the Disney area.
> >
> > Another piece of pseudo-French.
> > French restaurants have no such thing,
>
> "Putting 'French' in front of toast just makes it sound classy, like
> fries or sticking your tongue down someone's throat." --- Larry
> Finkelstein
>
> > for (as a consequence of having VAT) everything is 'prix fixe'
> > and you know it before entering.
>
> I don't think that's the same issue.

I don't think so either, but let's not resurrect the argument^W
discussion.

Here, if used, prix fixe would be used for a complete (FCVO) meal at one
price. I've seen it ever so often. There are, as someone mentioned,
"Specials" where it's a complete meal for one set price (excluding tax
and tip)[1].

Of course, there's also buffets where the price is fixed (excluding tax
and tip)[1] and you can eat as much as you like/is possible.

[1] But really how hard is it, knowing the tax rate (even approx.) and
tip rate you use, to roughly guess how much the who meal will cost?

--
charles

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 10:55:34 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 14 May 2015 07:24:53 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 9:32:04 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> >> Another piece of pseudo-French.
> >> French restaurants have no such thing,
> >> for (as a consequence of having VAT) everything is 'prix fixe'
> >> and you know it before entering.
> >
> >What does VAT have to do with offering or not offering the customer the
> >opportunity to make their own selection of dishes from the menu, rather
> >than taking the specific number and combination determined by the chef?
>
> Mr Lodder is making an allusion to the American situation where sales
> tax is added to the price of the meal when the check is presented.

That would be a double whoosh.

> The person entering a French restaurant on his side of the ocean can
> read the menu in the window that says that a particular offering is X
> (units of local money) and know that when he leaves he needs only to
> open his snap-top leather coin pouch and remove exactly X (units of
> local money) to pay the bill if he orders that offering.

"Euro" is a lot easier to type than "(units of local money)."

> A person entering a French restaurant in the US can read the menu in
> the window that says that a particular offering is X (units of local
> money), but will find Y (the percent of the local sales tax) added to
> the bill in the form of sales tax.

"$X" is a lot easier to type than "X (units of local money)."

> This often greatly disturbs visitors to this country. Doing the
> mental math of adding Y (the percent of the local sales tax) to
> X(units of local money) is as bothersome to them as corked wine.
>
> This, of course, is not the most serious barrier to enjoyment they
> will experience in the evening's dining experience. Z (the amount of
> tip they be expected to leave) still faces them.

The term "prix fixe" does not refer to the fact that you don't haggle over
the prices listed on the menu, which seems to be how you took JJL's remark,
whereas I'm pretty sure he was making a joke (one of his wonted slams at all
things American, but a joke nonetheless).

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <a3ahclsg...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>* Adam Funk:

>> "Putting 'French' in front of toast just makes it sound classy, like
>> fries or
>
>... vanilla or ...

No, "French" doesn't (properly) modify vanilla. "French vanilla ice
cream" is French-style ice cream (i.e., frozen egg custard) that is
vanilla-flavored; there is no "French vanilla" flavor. Traditional
American ice cream is Philadelphia (with no egg) or New York (with
some egg but less than French) style. Italian ice cream (i.e.,
gelato) is yet another style (made from a meringue rather than a
custard, if I recall correctly). Most "super-premium" ice creams are
French-style, whether they say it on the package or not, or else
simulate the texture using cheaper non-egg ingredients like vegetable
gums. You could have "French chocolate/mint/pistachio/hazelnut/coffee
ice cream" but for whatever reason nobody says that -- probably
because the egg-custard-ness is much more pronounced with vanilla than
with more assertive flavors.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <ach9la9j187entl52...@4ax.com>,

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

>This doesn't mean that the entire cost of the meal is fixed if you
>consider that alcoholic beverages are part of the meal. I've never
>seen a prix fixe meal that includes wine.

I have, in multiple establishments, with a different wine for each
course (of three or five, usually). But I don't drink so I never paid
much attention to it -- presumably the restaurant's sommelier chooses
the wines to pair with the chef's selections for the food items.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 2:00:36 PM UTC-4, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <a3ahclsg...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >* Adam Funk:

> >> "Putting 'French' in front of toast just makes it sound classy, like
> >> fries or
> >
> >... vanilla or ...
>
> No, "French" doesn't (properly) modify vanilla. "French vanilla ice
> cream" is French-style ice cream (i.e., frozen egg custard) that is
> vanilla-flavored; there is no "French vanilla" flavor. Traditional
> American ice cream is Philadelphia (with no egg) or New York (with
> some egg but less than French) style.

OMG, could that be the meaning of the "New York" flavor of ice cream that
I found in the freezer case the very first time I went grocery shopping in
Chicago in October 1972?

In New York we had no such thing, so I bought the half-gallon brick -- and
it was awful. I had (and have) no idea what it was flavored with, but it was
nothing I'd ever tasted before. Not vanilla, certainly.

> Italian ice cream (i.e.,
> gelato) is yet another style (made from a meringue rather than a
> custard, if I recall correctly). Most "super-premium" ice creams are
> French-style, whether they say it on the package or not, or else
> simulate the texture using cheaper non-egg ingredients like vegetable
> gums. You could have "French chocolate/mint/pistachio/hazelnut/coffee
> ice cream" but for whatever reason nobody says that -- probably
> because the egg-custard-ness is much more pronounced with vanilla than
> with more assertive flavors.

Since that would seem to be "premium," you'd think the makers would tout
it in their advertising and call attention to it in their ingredient lists,
but they don't.

[Tony Cooper]

I don't think the people who find our system of sales tax and tipping
to be unpalatable are unable to make these computations mentally. They
object on principle, and because it's different from what they're used
to.

Logically, they know that the added sales tax and tip does not
increase their total cost because including the sales tax as it is
done with VAT, or including the cost to the restaurant of providing
service is done there by burying the labor cost in the meal price, is
not an added cost but simply a breaking down of costs into itemized
components.

It's different, though. Objecting to it, though, is just as silly to
me as it would be for me to complain about having to translate C to F
or liters to gallons of gasoline because these units are different to
me.

People like to travel, but they want things to be the same when they
do except for the things they *want* to be different.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Thu, 14 May 2015 12:26:47 -0400, Oliver Cromm

The "Lunch 3 Course Menu" has a list of items that can be chosen for
each of the three courses. The price of the meal is fixed; it doesn't
depend on what is chosen for each course.

By contrast the "Lunch a la Carte Menu" gives a price for each dish.
(The prices are quoted as numbers without a $ sign.) And "Our Luncheon
Plates are served with a complimentary [i.e. free] Soup or Salad".
Presumably if you want a third course you choose from the Dessert Menu.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 14 May 2015 18:00:29 +0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <a3ahclsg...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
>Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>* Adam Funk:
>>> "Putting 'French' in front of toast just makes it sound classy, like
>>> fries or
>>
>>... vanilla or ...
>
>No, "French" doesn't (properly) modify vanilla. "French vanilla ice
>cream" is French-style ice cream (i.e., frozen egg custard) that is
>vanilla-flavored; there is no "French vanilla" flavor. Traditional
>American ice cream is Philadelphia (with no egg) or New York (with
>some egg but less than French) style. Italian ice cream (i.e.,
>gelato) is yet another style (made from a meringue rather than a
>custard, if I recall correctly). Most "super-premium" ice creams are
>French-style, whether they say it on the package or not, or else
>simulate the texture using cheaper non-egg ingredients like vegetable
>gums. You could have "French chocolate/mint/pistachio/hazelnut/coffee
>ice cream" but for whatever reason nobody says that -- probably
>because the egg-custard-ness is much more pronounced with vanilla than
>with more assertive flavors.
>

While you associated "French" and "vanilla" with ice cream, my
association was with the flavored coffee creamer products offered by
Nestle and other companies.

https://www.coffee-mate.com/Products/French-Vanilla.aspx?gclid=CKnGp5r1wcUCFQKs7AoduFUAgQ&gclsrc=ds#cf0aa49f-120c-459a-8081-24bfac27e69a

Doing it my way, we have a tidy little thread-merge with the Nestle
thread.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 14 May 2015 18:06:20 +0000 (UTC), wol...@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

>In article <ach9la9j187entl52...@4ax.com>,
>Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>This doesn't mean that the entire cost of the meal is fixed if you
>>consider that alcoholic beverages are part of the meal. I've never
>>seen a prix fixe meal that includes wine.
>
>I have, in multiple establishments, with a different wine for each
>course (of three or five, usually). But I don't drink so I never paid
>much attention to it -- presumably the restaurant's sommelier chooses
>the wines to pair with the chef's selections for the food items.
>

That's because you live in the sophisticated Boston area and I'm down
here in screw-cap country.

How is that handled? Does the patron get a glass or a carafe with
each course? Surely not an entire bottle?

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <79s9la1nn0aefsbj7...@4ax.com>,

I assume it's one glass, but that may depend on how many people are
being served.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 14 May 2015 10:14:33 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

What in the world would make you come this conclusion?

It must be some New Jersey thing to even consider that a restaurant's
menu prices can be haggled down.

>whereas I'm pretty sure he was making a joke (one of his wonted slams at all
>things American, but a joke nonetheless).

Ahhh, I see. He's making a joke that you saw, but (units of local
money) is not one that you saw.

I do have a news flash for you: Euros are not the only (unit of local
money) that are used in countries where there are French restaurants.

[Dr Nick]

Well my main complaint on the sales tax is that it makes it difficult
for me - who doesn't know the rates - to work out in advance what amount
of unfamiliar currency to get ready.

An unfamiliar currency that shows taxin prices is a lot less
disconcerting. Restaurants etc aren't the problem, it's simple things
like buying a book. And it's particularly irritating when you are short
on currency and wanting to divest yourself before leaving the country.

I find it awkward and inconvenient in that way. No principle involved.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Dr Nick skrev:

> Well my main complaint on the sales tax is that it makes it
> difficult for me - who doesn't know the rates - to work out in
> advance what amount of unfamiliar currency to get ready.

Why don't you just compute a virtual currency value? If 1 unit
costs 5 of your units, and the tax is 15 %, then pretend that the
price is 6 units (5.75 to be exact).

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Tony Cooper]

Really? You are planning such a fast exit from the restaurant that
you need advance planning time to determine the amount to be tendered?

Normally, the check - or whatever you want to call the slip of paper
that tells you how much you owe - is presented to you at the table.
Normally, you have to signal the waiter to bring the check or the
waiter will place it on your table when he sees that you are about to
finish and says something to the effect of "I'll take that when you're
ready".

Unless you insist on paying immediately because you intend to bolt,
you have ample time to figure out the correct amount. I would be
disconcerted if the waiter hovered over the table waiting for the
mental computation (the tip, in my case) to be made, but it just
doesn't happen.

It might be a little more tricky if you are standing at the register
(the till?) paying for a take-out order, but I wouldn't expect you to
be rushed.

I can't see it being a more complex problem for you than it was for me
to figure out what a string of numbers for pounds, shillings, and
pence required me to hand over. Of course, I never was one to worry
about having to have the proper combination of (units of local money)
available in advance. Push notes at 'em until they stop asking for
more seemed to work.

>An unfamiliar currency that shows taxin prices is a lot less
>disconcerting.

Yes, as I said. Because it's different.

>Restaurants etc aren't the problem, it's simple things
>like buying a book. And it's particularly irritating when you are short
>on currency and wanting to divest yourself before leaving the country.
>

Depending on the locale, the usual amount to be added is usually
something between 6 percent and 10 percent. If you're leaving the
country, you've probably been there for a enough time to know what the
local rate is.

If, leaving the US from Orlando's airport, you purchase a $9.95 book
in the gift shop, and have only a $10 bill with you, you are S.O.L.
The total will be $10.60. But, you knew it would be over $10, so you
should have picked a $8.95 book, and handed the 47 cents change to the
next person you saw wearing a Tottenham Spurs jersey so he could buy a
$9.50 book and pass his change along.

>I find it awkward and inconvenient in that way. No principle involved.

The inconvenience fades quickly compared to your next obstacle of
going through the boarding line and dealing with our TSA people. The
last of it fades away after boarding and finding out that you are
seated between a lady with a squalling infant and a Belgian snacking
on large wedge of cheese, and with a 9 year-old hyperactive terror
kicking the back of your seat for the entire flight.

If the flight attendant accepts US currency, you might wish that you
had kept the $10 bill so you could order something strong from the
drinks cart.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Tony Cooper skrev:

> I can't see it being a more complex problem for you than it was for me
> to figure out what a string of numbers for pounds, shillings, and
> pence required me to hand over. Of course, I never was one to worry
> about having to have the proper combination of (units of local money)
> available in advance. Push notes at 'em until they stop asking for
> more seemed to work.

My mother liked to tell about an aquaintance who travelled a lot
in countries whose language he didn't speak. When he had to pay
for something, he held out his hand with coins and notes and let
the person take himself - until he began to smile too broadly.
Then he took back the last item.

--
Bertel, Kolt, Denmark

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 4:45:23 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> If the flight attendant accepts US currency, you might wish that you
> had kept the $10 bill so you could order something strong from the
> drinks cart.

You're a bit behind the times. They -- or at least Lufthansa, and United operatiing
a Lufthansa flight -- no longer take cash.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Because you felt it necessary to explain, at a length inordinate even for
you, that sales tax and tipping exist.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Garrett Wollman:

> In article <a3ahclsg...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> Oliver Cromm <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>* Adam Funk:
>>> "Putting 'French' in front of toast just makes it sound classy, like
>>> fries or
>>
>>... vanilla or ...
>
> No, "French" doesn't (properly) modify vanilla. "French vanilla ice
> cream" is French-style ice cream (i.e., frozen egg custard) that is
> vanilla-flavored; there is no "French vanilla" flavor.

Interesting, but there is now a lot of other things besides ice
cream that are called "French vanilla" (yoghurt, cake ...), so
even if it wasn't originally, I think it has developed into a
taste designation.

Admittedly, I chose the example because it isn't straightforward.

--
If Helen Keller is alone in the forest and falls down, does she
make a sound?

[Tony Cooper]

I wasn't aware that Dr Nick, returning from the US to the UK, would
choose Lufthansa as a carrier.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 14 May 2015 13:59:19 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Every time I think you've peaked at delivering non sequiturs, you've
managed to top yourself.

Just for clarification, I am not using "top yourself" in the way that
it is used over there in the euthanasia thread. I'm not that eager to
thread-merge.

[Oliver Cromm]

* Peter Duncanson [BrE]:

So you think the "Lunch 3 Course Menu" is the menu (carte) for the
what, the "lunch 3 course"?

Isn't their English a bit off? Btw, this is a branch of a
restaurant in France.

In the case of the "4 Course Brunch Menu" I can accept your
interpretation in that it is the menu (carte) for the 4-course
brunch.

--
'Ah yes, we got that keyboard from Small Gods when they threw out
their organ. Unfortunately for complex theological reasons they
would only give us the white keys, so we can only program in C'.
Colin Fine in sci.lang