Buggins' Turn
James Follett
Much to my dismay, I've just had an editor query my use
of the term "Buggins' turn". He had never heard it and had
no idea what it meant. The context was "he was landed
with the post of chairman on the Buggins' turn principle."
I checked with my wife -- she had never heard of the
expression either. It was the same with a few friends -- blank
stares. I turned to my Oxford Library of Words and Phrases and
was astonished to discover no mention. It was the same with
several other usually reliable works.
Perhaps I've imagined it and the term doesn't exist. Even if
does, I've changed the sentence because a learned editor and
several friends represent a fair cross-section of the populace.
Has anyone heard of the expression? It needs only one aue
RR to put me out of my misery.
--
James Follett -- novelist http://www.davew.demon.co.uk
Perchprism
>From: ja...@marage.demon.co.uk (James Follett)
>Date: 10/26/00 8:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20001026.1...@marage.demon.co.uk>
Not I, but I know I don't count.
Perhaps you can take some solace in the fact that it's in NODE under "Buggins'
turn":
*****
noun Brit. informal a system by which appointments or awards are made in
rotation rather than by merit.
—ORIGIN early 20th cent.: from Buggins, used to represent a typical surname.
*****
It's all over google, too.
Is that how Churchill got to be Chancellor of the Exchequer?
--
Perchprism
(southern New Jersey, near Philadelphia)
Jim Lawton
snip
>noun Brit. informal a system by which appointments or awards are made in
>rotation rather than by merit.
.. and that's just how my father used to use it. He was a local
politician, and the chairmanship of some of the committees rotated
through the political parties on the principle of "Buggin's turn" ...
Jim (Yorkshire, England)
Matti Lamprhey
Hello again Jimbo -- search parties were being organized.
Buggins' Turn is very familiar to me, heard about once a year on average. I
just checked in Brewer and 'twas absent. It *is*, however, in NSOED: E20 --
appointment in rotation rather than by merit. It regards "Buggins" simply
as a typical surname used generically.
Did your editor not look in NSOED? Shame on her.
Matti
Peter Moylan
>Much to my dismay, I've just had an editor query my use
>of the term "Buggins' turn". He had never heard it and had
>no idea what it meant. The context was "he was landed
>with the post of chairman on the Buggins' turn principle."
Well, speak of the devil. I was wondering just this afternoon
where you'd gone. Welcome back! Good to see you.
My first reaction to the above paragraph was to think of
Bilbo Baggins. On reflection, though, there's something
right at the edge of my memory about a "somebody's turn"
sort of expression. I'm not sure that it was Buggins, but it
was a name very like that.
Unfortunately I can't bring it to the forefront of my memory.
Sorry, I know that that's not much help. Still, it has to be
at least slightly better than a slap in the face with a wet fish.
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au
Andy Averill
"Peter Moylan" <pe...@PJM2.newcastle.edu.au> wrote in message
news:8t9f8r$lsc$2...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au...
Buggins was the son-in-law of Hobson, IIRC.
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nancy g
> Much to my dismay, I've just had an editor query my use
> of the term "Buggins' turn". He had never heard it and had
> no idea what it meant. The context was "he was landed
> with the post of chairman on the Buggins' turn principle."
>
> I checked with my wife -- she had never heard of the
> expression either. It was the same with a few friends --
> blank stares. I turned to my Oxford Library of Words and
> Phrases and was astonished to discover no mention. It was
> the same with several other usually reliable works.
That notoriously *un*reliable work, the World Wide Web,
does mention it, however. A Google search turns up over
400 uses of the phrase.
> Perhaps I've imagined it and the term doesn't exist. Even if
> does, I've changed the sentence because a learned editor and
> several friends represent a fair cross-section of the populace.
Good idea, I think. I'm fairly well read, and yet I don't
recall ever hearing the term before. I don't believe it's
known at all here in the U.S. Perhaps our U.K. aue-ers have
heard of it?
Bob Cunningham
I had never heard it or seen it, but a Google search finds some
occurrences of it. For example,
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199394/cmhansrd/1994-06-20/Debate-1.html
. After cursorily reading a couple of allusions, I come away with the
feeling that it's probably akin to 'To the victor belong the spoils'.
Padraig Breathnach
>
>Much to my dismay, I've just had an editor query my use
>of the term "Buggins' turn". He had never heard it and had
>no idea what it meant. The context was "he was landed
>with the post of chairman on the Buggins' turn principle."
>
>Has anyone heard of the expression? It needs only one aue
>RR to put me out of my misery.
>
professional editor did not know, or could not find it.
I'm sure that you have been removed from your state of misery; that's what
aue is for. Don't stray so far again.
PB
Laura F Spira
I used the expression myself not an hour since when explaining to a
group of new staff how some of our systems for allocating administrative
responsibilities among often reluctant academics used to work. They all
seemed to understand it. I wonder who poor old Buggins was, though.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
K. Edgcombe
James Follett <ja...@james-follett.com> wrote:
>
>Much to my dismay, I've just had an editor query my use
>of the term "Buggins' turn". He had never heard it and had
>no idea what it meant. The context was "he was landed
>with the post of chairman on the Buggins' turn principle."
>
>Has anyone heard of the expression? It needs only one aue
>RR to put me out of my misery.
Well, I am certainly R if not RR, and I've known the expression ever since I
can remember. I use it quite often - well, as often as a Buggins-type
situation arises.
I don't know who the original Buggins was, though. He is vaguely associated in
my mind with Pooter, but might be much older.
Katy
Stephen Toogood
<an...@at.lisco> writes
>
>"Peter Moylan" <pe...@PJM2.newcastle.edu.au> wrote in message
>news:8t9f8r$lsc$2...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au...
>> James Follett wrote:
>>
>> >Much to my dismay, I've just had an editor query my use
>> >of the term "Buggins' turn". He had never heard it and had
>> >no idea what it meant. The context was "he was landed
>> >with the post of chairman on the Buggins' turn principle."
>>
>> Well, speak of the devil. I was wondering just this afternoon
>> where you'd gone. Welcome back! Good to see you.
>>
>> My first reaction to the above paragraph was to think of
>> Bilbo Baggins. On reflection, though, there's something
>> right at the edge of my memory about a "somebody's turn"
>> sort of expression. I'm not sure that it was Buggins, but it
>> was a name very like that.
>>
>> Unfortunately I can't bring it to the forefront of my memory.
>> Sorry, I know that that's not much help. Still, it has to be
>> at least slightly better than a slap in the face with a wet fish.
>
>Buggins was the son-in-law of Hobson, IIRC.
>
By the way, like all my fellow R-ponds who've posted so far, yes I know
Mr. Buggins all too well.
--
Stephen Toogood
Bob Cunningham
>In article <20001026.1...@marage.demon.co.uk>,
>James Follett <ja...@james-follett.com> wrote:
[ . . . ]
>>It needs only one aue RR to put me out of my misery.
>Well, I am certainly R if not RR,
It's not like you, Katie, to be so ambiguous. Do you mean that you're
certainly a regular, if not respected; or that you'e certainly
respected, if not a regular?
Brian J Goggin
<ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>By the way, like all my fellow R-ponds who've posted so far, yes I know
>Mr. Buggins all too well.
Me too.
I was asked recently whether it shouldn't be "muggins's turn". Is
muggins known elsewhere?
Not, by the way, Muglins, so nothing for Charles.
bjg
N.Mitchum
------
> right at the edge of my memory about a "somebody's turn"
> sort of expression. I'm not sure that it was Buggins, but it
> was a name very like that.
Hobson, by any chance?
----NM
Alan J. Flavell
> Much to my dismay, I've just had an editor query my use
> of the term "Buggins' turn". He had never heard it and had
> no idea what it meant. The context was "he was landed
> with the post of chairman on the Buggins' turn principle."
The phrase is entirely familiar to me, a speaker of British English.
> I checked with my wife -- she had never heard of the
> expression either. It was the same with a few friends -- blank
> stares. I turned to my Oxford Library of Words and Phrases and
> was astonished to discover no mention. It was the same with
> several other usually reliable works.
The OED cites its first reference from 1901, and continues through the
intervening period, but does not offer any suggestion as to who
Buggins was.
Google finds this interesting web page referring to a Butler Buggins,
who was Master of Revels in 1672:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/dance/ioc/intro.html
However, I'm sorry to say I see no indication that this has anything
to do with the Buggins of the phrase.
John Dean
James Follett <ja...@marage.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:20001026.1...@marage.demon.co.uk...
I don't know, Jimbo - you don't write, you don't phone, you don't post but
when *you* want something ....<sigh>
Partridge's Dictionary of Slang (8th Ed) has The Buggins Principle (no
apostrophe) cross-ref to 'next in line for admiral'. Suggests it may be
older than Parkinson's law & may have originated in the Civil Service.
Certainly I've heard it as Buggins' Turn.
Welcome Back
--
John Dean -- Oxford
I am anti-spammed -- defrag me to reply
Bill Howard
"Brian J Goggin" <b...@wordwrights.ie> wrote in message
news:oc5hvs86h5ccsfbqj...@4ax.com...
I've met muggins in the game cribbage, and in a Goons script.
Bill
Rudolf Schwarzkopf-Zskai
James Follett said stuff about Buggins' turn:
Is this more common in Right-Pondia do you think?
When I first saw the subject header starting off a new thread I imagined
some deep discourse over some nuance in the term's usage rather than people
saying they'd never heard it.
I used it only the other day with a small group of not particularly
cerebral students in order to explain how during their two years on their
course they would have a go at being Class Rep. Not only did they
understand it, they picked up also the sense of no matter how unwilling an
individual might be, when it Buggins' turn you just have to serve.
I'm surprised your editor questioned you on this; do you think he would
understand the term 'taxi-rank' as applied to barristers?....... (and, is
'taxi-rank' more Right-Pondian I wonder?).
By the way, my trusty Chambers lists 'Buggins's turn', but doubtless this is
just one of those optional matters of taste.
--
Rudolf
Nottingham UK
rud...@ntlworld.com
www.lizardnet.freeserve.co.uk
Chris Norton
> *****
> noun Brit. informal a system by which appointments or awards are made in
> rotation rather than by merit.
>
> —ORIGIN early 20th cent.: from Buggins, used to represent a typical
surname.
> *****
>
> Is that how Churchill got to be Chancellor of the Exchequer?
It used to be the standard method to become mayor in English towns and I
usually heard the term in that context. If you were on the council long
enough you would eventually be mayor. (Nothing as vulgar as actually
voting for a mayor in England - except London these days).
Chris Norton
Mark Barratt
> <ste...@stenches.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >By the way, like all my fellow R-ponds who've posted so far,
yes I know
> >Mr. Buggins all too well.
>
> Me too.
>
> I was asked recently whether it shouldn't be "muggins's turn".
Is
> muggins known elsewhere?
No, "muggins" is something else. I've usually heard it in
expressions like "Muggins had to do it" meaning "I'm the poor
schmuck that got stuck with the job". It's in COED9, which says
that it also means 'simpleton' and 'a person who is easily
outwitted'. They think that it's probably cognate with 'mug' in
this sense.
Regards
Mark Barratt
Andy Averill
"Rudolf Schwarzkopf-Zskai" <ta...@face.value> wrote in message
news:C6aK5.2635$h%4.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> James Follett said stuff about Buggins' turn:
>
> Is this more common in Right-Pondia do you think?
> When I first saw the subject header starting off a new thread I imagined
> some deep discourse over some nuance in the term's usage rather than
people
> saying they'd never heard it.
Here at aue we're very happy to have people post a response just to say they
don't know the answer!
Peter Moylan
No, no, I'm quite sure that Hobson had a choice, not a turn.
Having read others' contributions to this thread, I've decided
that I really have heard about Buggins' turn, but not often
enough to make it stick in my mind.
Richard Fontana
[...]
> I'm surprised your editor questioned you on this; do you think he would
> understand the term 'taxi-rank' as applied to barristers?....... (and, is
> 'taxi-rank' more Right-Pondian I wonder?).
Yes. It's "taxi-stand" or "cab-stand" in American.
--
Richard
Karen Zachary
> From: ja...@marage.demon.co.uk (James Follett)
> Organization: Earthsearch
> Reply-To: ja...@james-follett.com
> Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:18:28 +0100 (BST)
> Subject: Buggins' Turn
>
>
> Much to my dismay, I've just had an editor query my use
> of the term "Buggins' turn". He had never heard it and had
> no idea what it meant. The context was "he was landed
> with the post of chairman on the Buggins' turn principle."
> Has anyone heard of the expression?
Well, I have now.
> It needs only one aue RR to put me out of my misery.
>
Hope this helps.
Peter Prictoe
> >Peter Moylan wrote:
> >
> No, no, I'm quite sure that Hobson had a choice, not a turn.
>
PP I thought that neither Hobson nor his clients had a choice?
Peter P
Rudolf Schwarzkopf-Zskai
Rudolf Schwarzkopf-Zskai, that being me, said:
: I used it only the other day with a small group of not particularly
: cerebral students in order to explain how during their two years on their
: course they would have a go at being Class Rep. Not only did they
: understand it, they picked up also the sense of no matter how unwilling an
: individual might be, when it Buggins' turn you just have to serve.
I should like to flagellate myself in front of you all, for the second time
tonight, and tell you I have erred grievously - for, some other poster has
mentioned 'Muggin's turn', and I actually think this might have been what I
said to those students, the implication being that when it's your turn you
just have to put up with it and serve.
Buggins' turn looks a far more sophisticated matter........ again, some
other poster has encapsulated it with the idea that, if the Africans haven't
had a go at the Secretary-Generalship in the last six offices, then it's
their turn now.
Whip-whip!
I am chastised.
Al in Dallas
Katie did not say that she is *a* regular. She said that she *is
regular*. (I have no idea what "RR" stands for in this context.)
--
Al in Dallas
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
N.Mitchum
-----
> > No, no, I'm quite sure that Hobson had a choice, not a turn.
> >
The clients had no choice: they took the next horse in its turn
or they took no horse at all. The liveryman Hobson made these
rules, so Hobson did have a choice of sorts.
Charles Laughton's Hobson had no choice, however.
----NM
CB
have a way of adopting our own!
"Brian J Goggin" <b...@wordwrights.ie> wrote in message
news:oc5hvs86h5ccsfbqj...@4ax.com...
Peter Prictoe
"N.Mitchum" <aj...@lafn.org> wrote
> The clients had no choice: they took the next horse in its turn
> or they took no horse at all. The liveryman Hobson made these
> rules, so Hobson did have a choice of sorts.
>
> Charles Laughton's Hobson had no choice, however.
>
PP I take your point and also agree that Laughton was excellent in the film
I am old enough to recall him on the stage too and he was superb.
Peter P
> ----NM
>
James Follett
Many thanks to all who answered. My sanity has been preserved.
--
James Follett -- novelist http://www.davew.demon.co.uk
Rowan Dingle
>Many thanks to all who answered. My sanity has been preserved.
But how's your roof? Did grannies pilot their zimmers through the racing
clouds, like Flash Gordon on his sky-scooter? Was the cream whipped in a
thousand tea-shops? Were mini-skirts raised along a broad front? Did the
Roller go for an unplanned spin?
Tornadoes in Bognor! Whatever next?
--
Rowan Dingle
K. Edgcombe
Bob Cunningham <malgran...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>>>It needs only one aue RR to put me out of my misery.
>
>>Well, I am certainly R if not RR,
>
>It's not like you, Katie, to be so ambiguous. Do you mean that you're
>certainly a regular, if not respected; or that you'e certainly
>respected, if not a regular?
>
It was deliberate, by the way; not one of my prettier ambiguities, but mine
own...
Katy (just back from a weekend in Switzerland with Stephen)
Brian J Goggin
>Katy (just back from a weekend in Switzerland with Stephen)
Rutting?
bjg