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Omicron - a catalogue of errors?
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Paul Wolff
Nov 28, 2021, 8:57:02 AM11/28/21
to
When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that English
likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an example.
What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are they all just
ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
--
Paul
(in a bit of a huff)
'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
thought, and easy to remember.
I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that English
likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those letters.
But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an example.
What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are they all just
ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
--
Paul
(in a bit of a huff)
spains...@gmail.com
Nov 28, 2021, 9:25:56 AM11/28/21
to
only applies to standalone Greek o's?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 28, 2021, 9:53:30 AM11/28/21
to
education. People (other than Roman Catholic priests) know no Latin,
and as for Greek, what's that?
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
charles
Nov 28, 2021, 10:14:12 AM11/28/21
to
In article <j0hjf4...@mid.individual.net>,
when my, now, 53yo daughter was studingb for Religious Diploma at Oxford
some 15 years ago, she learned Greek so she could study the older relevant
documents, Since her fisrt degree was in the sciences, she hadn't met it
before.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
some 15 years ago, she learned Greek so she could study the older relevant
documents, Since her fisrt degree was in the sciences, she hadn't met it
before.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 28, 2021, 10:23:13 AM11/28/21
to
Nor Epsilon, in case that comes up,.
occam
Nov 28, 2021, 11:00:23 AM11/28/21
to
On 28/11/2021 14:53, Paul Wolff wrote:
> When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
> 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
> versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
> thought, and easy to remember.
>
> I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
> vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
> omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
> sensible.
For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first syllable
> When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
> 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
> versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
> thought, and easy to remember.
>
> I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
> vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
> omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
> sensible.
for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for o-me-gah. I
do not think that the sounds are different when they (modern Greeks) are
being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as a different language.
Mack A. Damia
Nov 28, 2021, 11:28:46 AM11/28/21
to
charles
Nov 28, 2021, 11:32:53 AM11/28/21
to
In article <j0hnci...@mid.individual.net>,
than on the mainlanmd.
occam <nob...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
> > 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
> > versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
> > thought, and easy to remember.
> >
> > I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
> > vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
> > omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
> > sensible.
> For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first syllable
> for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for o-me-gah. I
> do not think that the sounds are different when they (modern Greeks) are
> being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as a different language.
How do they say it in Crete? they reckon they're closer to classical greek
> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters for
> > 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o micron'
> > versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively. Logical, I
> > thought, and easy to remember.
> >
> > I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
> > vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress in
> > omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems more
> > sensible.
> For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first syllable
> for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for o-me-gah. I
> do not think that the sounds are different when they (modern Greeks) are
> being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as a different language.
than on the mainlanmd.
occam
Nov 28, 2021, 11:39:09 AM11/28/21
to
different influences.
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 28, 2021, 12:02:54 PM11/28/21
to
among newspeople for the first syllable. It doesn't correlate
with nationality.
Kerr-Mudd, John
Nov 28, 2021, 12:19:45 PM11/28/21
to
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Kerr-Mudd, John
Nov 28, 2021, 12:24:22 PM11/28/21
to
occam
Nov 28, 2021, 12:43:27 PM11/28/21
to
Paul Wolff
Nov 28, 2021, 12:43:39 PM11/28/21
to
On Sun, 28 Nov 2021, at 07:23:10, Peter T. Daniels posted:
Ok, thanks. Both were second-syllable WIWAL in Greek class, but I see
the OED recognises both options for epsilon.
(By "The OED" I mean the Shorter, 6th edn, 2007, with handy sound files,
which is my go-to.)
--
Paul
the OED recognises both options for epsilon.
(By "The OED" I mean the Shorter, 6th edn, 2007, with handy sound files,
which is my go-to.)
--
Paul
Mack A. Damia
Nov 28, 2021, 12:57:59 PM11/28/21
to
Paul Wolff
Nov 28, 2021, 1:03:38 PM11/28/21
to
On Sun, 28 Nov 2021, at 18:43:23, occam posted:
St Paul told Titus that Epimenides was correct (Epistle to Titus,
Chapter 1, verse 13).
--
Paul
Chapter 1, verse 13).
--
Paul
Pamela
Nov 28, 2021, 5:39:12 PM11/28/21
to
On 16:00 28 Nov 2021, occam said:
> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two
>> letters for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and
>> the 'o micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds
>> respectively. Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
>>
>> I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
>> vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress
>> in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems
>> more sensible.
>
> For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first
> syllable for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for
> o-me-gah. I do not think that the sounds are different when they
> (modern Greeks) are being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as a
> different language.
The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
> On 28/11/2021 14:53, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two
>> letters for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and
>> the 'o micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds
>> respectively. Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
>>
>> I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
>> vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress
>> in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems
>> more sensible.
>
> For what it's worth, modern Greek puts the stress on the first
> syllable for o-micron, and the stress is on the second syllable for
> o-me-gah. I do not think that the sounds are different when they
> (modern Greeks) are being taught Ancient Greek, which is taught as a
> different language.
Greek pronunciation may be different.
Garrett Wollman
Nov 28, 2021, 7:00:44 PM11/28/21
to
In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
(j/k)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
>Greek pronunciation may be different.
All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
>Greek pronunciation may be different.
(j/k)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Dingbat
Nov 28, 2021, 9:35:30 PM11/28/21
to
On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 4:00:44 PM UTC-8, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
> >Greek pronunciation may be different.
> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>
Modern Greek has 2 i's with pronunciation spellings Yota and Ita.
> In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
> >Greek pronunciation may be different.
> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>
Greek <oi> is often <oe> in English but <e> in "Economics",
both pronounced /i/ (also /I/?} like in modern Greek.
Greek ypsilon (looks like y) is /u/ in Greek names in the Malayalam
Bible. When did Greeks last pronouce it as a rounded vowel?
The name of the letter is pronounced like Upsilon in English but
Ipsilon in modern Greek. It was rounded when the Cyrillic alphabet
was designed judging by its sound in Russian.
Dingbat
Nov 28, 2021, 9:39:07 PM11/28/21
to
On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 6:35:30 PM UTC-8, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 4:00:44 PM UTC-8, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> > In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
> > Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
> > >Greek pronunciation may be different.
> > All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
> >
> Modern Greek has 2 i's with pronunciation spellings Yota and Ita.
Yota and Eeta, that is.
> On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 4:00:44 PM UTC-8, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> > In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
> > Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
> > >Greek pronunciation may be different.
> > All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
> >
> Modern Greek has 2 i's with pronunciation spellings Yota and Ita.
S K
Nov 28, 2021, 9:57:09 PM11/28/21
to
On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 7:00:44 PM UTC-5, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
> >Greek pronunciation may be different.
> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>
now THAT beats "the tomato is not a vegetable", if true.
> In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
> >Greek pronunciation may be different.
> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>
but is it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iotacism
Peter Moylan
Nov 28, 2021, 10:53:39 PM11/28/21
to
only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks said it. (But
plenty who are fluent in modern Greek.) You'd have trouble finding any
school in the country where Greek is taught.
What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Jerry Friedman
Nov 29, 2021, 12:02:12 AM11/29/21
to
On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 8:53:39 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
...
> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
I suppose there will be a power struggle between the supporters of aleph
and those of alif.
No doubt many people here know that there's no xi variant, since the WHO avoids
giving diseases names that could cause offense, especially to the absolute ruler
of a third of the world's population.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-207834730667
--
Jerry Friedman
...
> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
and those of alif.
No doubt many people here know that there's no xi variant, since the WHO avoids
giving diseases names that could cause offense, especially to the absolute ruler
of a third of the world's population.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-207834730667
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 29, 2021, 2:31:13 AM11/29/21
to
On 2021-11-29 00:00:40 +0000, Garrett Wollman said:
> In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
>> Greek pronunciation may be different.
>
> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
On their way, certainly, but some distinctions remain: α, ε and ο are not [i].
> In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
>> Greek pronunciation may be different.
>
> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>
> (j/k)
>
> -GAWollman
occam
Nov 29, 2021, 4:26:55 AM11/29/21
to
On 29/11/2021 01:00, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
>> Greek pronunciation may be different.
>
> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>
καφενεíοv (café) or when order coffee (καφές) in Greece.
Janet
Nov 29, 2021, 5:16:18 AM11/29/21
to
In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...
We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Janet.
says...
is, do we start with female names or male names.
(I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Janet.
Richard Heathfield
Nov 29, 2021, 5:28:35 AM11/29/21
to
On 29/11/2021 10:16, Janet wrote:
> In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> says...
<snip>
> In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> says...
>> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
>> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
>
>
> We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
> is, do we start with female names or male names.
> (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Kerr-Mudd, John
Nov 29, 2021, 5:52:29 AM11/29/21
to
On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:28:31 +0000
Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 10:16, Janet wrote:
> > In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> > says...
>
>
> <snip>
>
> >> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> >> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get
> >> to omega?
> >
> >
> > We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big
> > question is, do we start with female names or male names.
> > (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
>
> Alice (cf Cooper)?
>
I thought we'd done this elsewhere;
Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 10:16, Janet wrote:
> > In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> > says...
>
>
> <snip>
>
> >> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> >> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get
> >> to omega?
> >
> >
> > We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big
> > question is, do we start with female names or male names.
> > (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
>
> Alice (cf Cooper)?
>
Andrea
(OK it's more gender ambivalent, depending on country)
Paul Wolff
Nov 29, 2021, 6:15:08 AM11/29/21
to
On Mon, 29 Nov 2021, at 14:53:34, Peter Moylan posted:
--
Paul
>
>What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
>passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
>
O-mega? That's surely reserved for the last and greatest of them all.
>What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
>passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
>
--
Paul
Paul Wolff
Nov 29, 2021, 6:15:10 AM11/29/21
to
On Mon, 29 Nov 2021, at 10:52:25, Kerr-Mudd, John posted:
Anon.
--
Paul
--
Paul
occam
Nov 29, 2021, 7:23:02 AM11/29/21
to
Adam Funk
Nov 29, 2021, 7:30:07 AM11/29/21
to
On 2021-11-29, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2021-11-29 00:00:40 +0000, Garrett Wollman said:
>
>> In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
>> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
>>> Greek pronunciation may be different.
>>
>> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>
> On their way, certainly, but some distinctions remain: α, ε and ο are not [i].
>>
>> (j/k)
>>
>> -GAWollman
I think "(j/k)" means "just kidding".
> On 2021-11-29 00:00:40 +0000, Garrett Wollman said:
>
>> In article <XnsADF0E66...@144.76.35.252>,
>> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
>>> Greek pronunciation may be different.
>>
>> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>
> On their way, certainly, but some distinctions remain: α, ε and ο are not [i].
>>
>> (j/k)
>>
>> -GAWollman
--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. ---David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995
Adam Funk
Nov 29, 2021, 7:30:08 AM11/29/21
to
On 2021-11-29, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 10:16, Janet wrote:
>> In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>> says...
>
>
><snip>
>
>>> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
>>> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
>>
>>
>> We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
>> is, do we start with female names or male names.
>> (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
>
> Alice (cf Cooper)?
Marilyn (cf Manson) although I prefer AC.
> On 29/11/2021 10:16, Janet wrote:
>> In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>> says...
>
>
><snip>
>
>>> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
>>> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
>>
>>
>> We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
>> is, do we start with female names or male names.
>> (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
>
> Alice (cf Cooper)?
--
Let me tell you what I think of bicycling. I think it has done more to
emancipate women than anything else in the world. I stand and rejoice
every time I see a woman ride by on a wheel. ---Susan B. Anthony
occam
Nov 29, 2021, 7:33:48 AM11/29/21
to
On 29/11/2021 04:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 29/11/21 00:53, Paul Wolff wrote:
>
>> When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters
>> for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o
>> micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively.
>> Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
>>
>> I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
>> vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress
>> in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems
>> more sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that
>> English likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those
>> letters.
>>
>> But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
>> their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
>> pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an
>> example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are
>> they all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
>
> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who cares,
> On 29/11/21 00:53, Paul Wolff wrote:
>
>> When I learned Greek, I liked the neat way that they had two letters
>> for 'O' while we used only one. They had the 'o mega' and the 'o
>> micron' versions, for the long and the short sounds respectively.
>> Logical, I thought, and easy to remember.
>>
>> I never thought about the stress patterns we learned for these two
>> vowels, which were not mutually consistent - second syllable stress
>> in omicron, but first syllable stress in omega, where second seems
>> more sensible. I checked the OED, and those scholars confirm that
>> English likes the ways I was taught to pronounce the names of those
>> letters.
>>
>> But Auntie Beeb has been deeply offending my ears this weekend with
>> their "omicron variant" where 'omicron' is all short vowels and has a
>> pretty even stress pattern, like 'catalogue' in BrE, to take an
>> example. What has happened? Are they in any sense correct, or are
>> they all just ignorant and too lazy to look it up?
>
> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis on the
first syllable)
I've
> only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks said it.
ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
(But
> plenty who are fluent in modern Greek.) You'd have trouble finding any
> school in the country where Greek is taught.
<https://study.unimelb.edu.au/discover/inside-melbourne/languages/ancient-greek>
>
> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to
> omega?
>
ξ ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 29, 2021, 7:38:53 AM11/29/21
to
you're in the UK.
Pamela
Nov 29, 2021, 8:04:05 AM11/29/21
to
CDB
Nov 29, 2021, 8:11:13 AM11/29/21
to
On 11/28/2021 7:00 PM, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because
>> modern Greek pronunciation may be different.
> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
> (j/k)
Practically. Some here may recall an incursion of modern Greeks who
> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because
>> modern Greek pronunciation may be different.
> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
> (j/k)
insisted that the vowels of the ancient language had been pronounced
just as Greeks had them now. In my youth I went a few rounds with my
father, trying to convince him that Church Latin was different from
Cicero's. I think I convinced him, but the Greeks went away indignant.
CDB
Nov 29, 2021, 8:18:07 AM11/29/21
to
On 11/28/2021 9:57 PM, S K wrote:
>> (j/k)
at dinne>> --
> Garrett Wollman wrote:
>> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
>>> Greek pronunciation may be different.
>> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
> now THAT beats "the tomato is not a vegetable", if true.
> but is it?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iotacism
Its own WParticle. Who knew?
>> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because modern
>>> Greek pronunciation may be different.
>> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
> now THAT beats "the tomato is not a vegetable", if true.
> but is it?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iotacism
>> (j/k)
at dinne>> --
CDB
Nov 29, 2021, 8:20:28 AM11/29/21
to
On 11/29/2021 7:20 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> Garrett Wollman said:
>>> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because
>>>> modern Greek pronunciation may be different.
>
>>> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>> On their way, certainly, but some distinctions remain: α, ε and ο
>> are not [i].
>>> (j/k)
>>> -GAWollman
> I think "(j/k)" means "just kidding".
I was thinking "j[o]k[e]", but now I see you're right.
>>> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because
>>>> modern Greek pronunciation may be different.
>
>>> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>> On their way, certainly, but some distinctions remain: α, ε and ο
>> are not [i].
>>> (j/k)
>>> -GAWollman
> I think "(j/k)" means "just kidding".
Ken Blake
Nov 29, 2021, 10:25:11 AM11/29/21
to
lar3ryca
Nov 29, 2021, 10:43:00 AM11/29/21
to
spains...@gmail.com
Nov 29, 2021, 11:14:10 AM11/29/21
to
Jerry Friedman
Nov 29, 2021, 11:28:13 AM11/29/21
to
On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 9:14:10 AM UTC-7, spains...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 3:43:00 PM UTC, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 4:16:18 AM UTC-6, Janet wrote:
> > > In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> > > says...
...
> On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 3:43:00 PM UTC, lar3...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 4:16:18 AM UTC-6, Janet wrote:
> > > In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> > > says...
> > > > What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> > > > passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
> > > We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
> > > is, do we start with female names or male names.
> > > (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
> > >
> > > Janet.
> > Andre
> "Alex" for Alexandra and Alexander.
Alexis peaked around 2000 in the U.S. for both boys and girls, but much higher for
girls.
https://www.behindthename.com/name/alexis/top/united-states
"Ashley" was at 0.005% for boys and 0.009% for girls in 1964 in the U.S. It increased
slowly for boys and much faster for girls, then fell for both, starting to fall earlier for
boys.
https://www.behindthename.com/name/ashley/top
In England&Wales it's always been more popular for boys.
https://www.behindthename.com/name/ashley/top/england-wales
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 29, 2021, 11:49:14 AM11/29/21
to
On Sunday, November 28, 2021 at 10:53:39 PM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:
> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
They'll alternate girl names and boy names.
> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 29, 2021, 11:50:34 AM11/29/21
to
On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 5:16:18 AM UTC-5, Janet wrote:
> In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> says...
> In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
> says...
> > What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> > passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
>
> We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
> is, do we start with female names or male names.
> (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Were you absent the week we were kicking Alex around?
> > passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
>
> We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
> is, do we start with female names or male names.
> (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 29, 2021, 11:52:53 AM11/29/21
to
On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 7:33:48 AM UTC-5, occam wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 04:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > I've
> > only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks said it.
>
> And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
> ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
See W. S. Allen, *Vox Graeca* (Cambridge; used to be quite inexpensive,
> On 29/11/2021 04:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > I've
> > only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks said it.
>
> And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
> ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
now quite dear).
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 29, 2021, 11:58:03 AM11/29/21
to
On Monday, November 29, 2021 at 11:28:13 AM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> "Ashley" was at 0.005% for boys and 0.009% for girls in 1964 in the U.S. It increased
> slowly for boys and much faster for girls, then fell for both, starting to fall earlier for
> boys.
>
> https://www.behindthename.com/name/ashley/top
>
> In England&Wales it's always been more popular for boys.
>
> https://www.behindthename.com/name/ashley/top/england-wales
Shirley, there was a surge in 1939, because Ashley Wilkes?
> "Ashley" was at 0.005% for boys and 0.009% for girls in 1964 in the U.S. It increased
> slowly for boys and much faster for girls, then fell for both, starting to fall earlier for
> boys.
>
> https://www.behindthename.com/name/ashley/top
>
> In England&Wales it's always been more popular for boys.
>
> https://www.behindthename.com/name/ashley/top/england-wales
And a concomitant ebbing of Rhett.
Or even '36, with the book.
And then Leslie Howard perished romantically and heroically in the RAF.
Sam Plusnet
Nov 29, 2021, 2:02:09 PM11/29/21
to
--
Sam Plusnet
Snidely
Nov 29, 2021, 7:31:36 PM11/29/21
to
Jerry Friedman pounded on thar keyboard to tell us
Not bad graph there, but I remember an IBM demonstration page based on
dot-gov information. By default it graphed the top N, but IIRC you
could also get a specific name to be in the graph. It was a beautiful
display, but I've long since lost the URL to it, if it is still
running.
/dps
--
We’ve learned way more than we wanted to know about the early history
of American professional basketball, like that you could have once
watched a game between teams named the Indianapolis Kautskys and the
Akron Firestone Non-Skids. -- fivethirtyeight.com
dot-gov information. By default it graphed the top N, but IIRC you
could also get a specific name to be in the graph. It was a beautiful
display, but I've long since lost the URL to it, if it is still
running.
/dps
--
We’ve learned way more than we wanted to know about the early history
of American professional basketball, like that you could have once
watched a game between teams named the Indianapolis Kautskys and the
Akron Firestone Non-Skids. -- fivethirtyeight.com
Peter Moylan
Nov 29, 2021, 8:42:24 PM11/29/21
to
On 30/11/21 02:25, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 11/29/2021 3:16 AM, Janet wrote:
>> In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>> says...
> On 11/29/2021 3:16 AM, Janet wrote:
>> In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>> says...
>>> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
>>> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to
>>> omega?
>>
>> We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
>> is, do we start with female names or male names.
>> (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
>
> Andy?
That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".
>>> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to
>>> omega?
>>
>> We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
>> is, do we start with female names or male names.
>> (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
>
> Andy?
Andy sang as he watched
Andy waited till his billy boiled.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Peter Moylan
Nov 29, 2021, 8:54:10 PM11/29/21
to
On 29/11/21 23:33, occam wrote:
> On 29/11/2021 04:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
>
> Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
> cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
> on the first syllable)
True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
> On 29/11/2021 04:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
>
> Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
> cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
> on the first syllable)
I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
used in somebody's language.
>> I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
>> said it.
>
> And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
> ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
Rome.
> And whatever happened to covid variants: ε, ζ, η, θ, Ι , κ, λ, μ,
> ν, ξ ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
English word "new", and ξ appears to have been skipped for political
reasons. (Offensive to the Chinese leader? Nobody is saying.)
I think the others were observed and named, but were not of sufficient
concern to hit the news.
Adam Funk
Nov 30, 2021, 4:30:08 AM11/30/21
to
On 2021-11-30, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 29/11/21 23:33, occam wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 04:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>>> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
>>
>> Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
>> cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
>> on the first syllable)
>
> True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
>
> I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
> symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
> used in somebody's language.
>
>>> I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
>>> said it.
>>
>> And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
>> ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
>
> There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
> became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
> pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
> Rome.
>
>> And whatever happened to covid variants: ε, ζ, η, θ, Ι , κ, λ, μ,
>> ν, ξ ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
>
> ν was skipped because somebody thought it would be confused with the
> English word "new", and ξ appears to have been skipped for political
> reasons. (Offensive to the Chinese leader? Nobody is saying.)
Officially because "Xi" (pronounced differently from any of the
> On 29/11/21 23:33, occam wrote:
>> On 29/11/2021 04:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>>> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
>>
>> Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
>> cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
>> on the first syllable)
>
> True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
>
> I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
> symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
> used in somebody's language.
>
>>> I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
>>> said it.
>>
>> And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
>> ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
>
> There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
> became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
> pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
> Rome.
>
>> And whatever happened to covid variants: ε, ζ, η, θ, Ι , κ, λ, μ,
>> ν, ξ ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
>
> ν was skipped because somebody thought it would be confused with the
> English word "new", and ξ appears to have been skipped for political
> reasons. (Offensive to the Chinese leader? Nobody is saying.)
variations of the Greek letter) is a common surname. Naturally there's
a fracas about it.
<https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52831>
> I think the others were observed and named, but were not of sufficient
> concern to hit the news.
>
--
I will return again
Athel Cornish-Bowden
Nov 30, 2021, 5:16:26 AM11/30/21
to
-- we had a neighbour called Py.
> Naturally there's
> a fracas about it.
>
> <https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52831>
>
>
>
>> I think the others were observed and named, but were not of sufficient
>> concern to hit the news.
--
occam
Nov 30, 2021, 6:49:14 AM11/30/21
to
distinctive logo comprising the three letters inside a circle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pye_(electronics_company)
Quinn C
Nov 30, 2021, 9:15:27 AM11/30/21
to
* Adam Funk:
In German, the name will often be pronounced like the Greek letter chi.
Should we skip that one, too? Well, German is not an official language
at the WHO.
How did this happen:
| Xi (pronounced 'Chi', or 'Ki' with long 'i'/'aye' in Brit English)
I'm not sure what sound the 'ch' is supposed to represent here, but
whichever way, none of the pronunciations indicated seem to be
reasonable. According to more reliable sources, the x in xi is
pronounced /z/, /s/ or /ks/.
--
Behold, honored adversaries,
We are the instruments of your joyful death.
Consu war chant -- J. Scalzi, Old Man's War
Should we skip that one, too? Well, German is not an official language
at the WHO.
How did this happen:
| Xi (pronounced 'Chi', or 'Ki' with long 'i'/'aye' in Brit English)
I'm not sure what sound the 'ch' is supposed to represent here, but
whichever way, none of the pronunciations indicated seem to be
reasonable. According to more reliable sources, the x in xi is
pronounced /z/, /s/ or /ks/.
--
Behold, honored adversaries,
We are the instruments of your joyful death.
Consu war chant -- J. Scalzi, Old Man's War
Paul Wolff
Nov 30, 2021, 10:52:51 AM11/30/21
to
On Tue, 30 Nov 2021, at 09:15:29, Quinn C posted:
second syllable stress - the same pattern as in omicron, and with the
same 'i' in each word.
when speaking of Cicero or Caesar even today.
>>>
>>>> And whatever happened to covid variants: ?, ?, ?, ?, ? , ?, ?,
>>>>
>>>> ?, ? ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
>>>
>>> ? was skipped because somebody thought it would be confused with the
>>> English word "new", and ? appears to have been skipped for political
means the letter name was pronounced /ksaI/ in my classical Greek class.
(That's supposed to use the 'aye' of two paragraphs up, or the 'eye'
near the top of this post.)
--
Paul
>* Adam Funk:
>> On 2021-11-30, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 29/11/21 23:33, occam wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 04:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>>>> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
>>>>
>>>> Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
>>>> cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
>>>> on the first syllable)
>>>
>>> True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
Eye-ota, more or less, is my usage, as taught at school, with slight
>> On 2021-11-30, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 29/11/21 23:33, occam wrote:
>>>> On 29/11/2021 04:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>>>> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
>>>>
>>>> Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
>>>> cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
>>>> on the first syllable)
>>>
>>> True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
second syllable stress - the same pattern as in omicron, and with the
same 'i' in each word.
>>>
>>> I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
>>> symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
>>> used in somebody's language.
>>>
>>>>> I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
>>>>> said it.
>>>>
>>>> And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
>>>> ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
>>>
>>> There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
>>> became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
>>> pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
>>> Rome.
Fashions come, fashions go. Very few English speakers use a hard 'C'
>>> I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
>>> symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
>>> used in somebody's language.
>>>
>>>>> I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
>>>>> said it.
>>>>
>>>> And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
>>>> ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
>>>
>>> There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
>>> became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
>>> pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
>>> Rome.
when speaking of Cicero or Caesar even today.
>>>
>>>> And whatever happened to covid variants: ?, ?, ?, ?, ? , ?, ?,
>>>>
>>>> ?, ? ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
>>>
>>> ? was skipped because somebody thought it would be confused with the
>>> English word "new", and ? appears to have been skipped for political
>>> reasons. (Offensive to the Chinese leader? Nobody is saying.)
>>
>> Officially because "Xi" (pronounced differently from any of the
>> variations of the Greek letter) is a common surname.
>
>In German, the name will often be pronounced like the Greek letter chi.
>Should we skip that one, too? Well, German is not an official language
>at the WHO.
>
>> Naturally there's
>> a fracas about it.
>>
>> <https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52831>
>
>How did this happen:
>
>| Xi (pronounced 'Chi', or 'Ki' with long 'i'/'aye' in Brit English)
>
>I'm not sure what sound the 'ch' is supposed to represent here, but
>whichever way, none of the pronunciations indicated seem to be
>reasonable. According to more reliable sources, the x in xi is
>pronounced /z/, /s/ or /ks/.
>
/ks/ back in the schoolroom - so if I have my ascii IPA right, that
>>
>> Officially because "Xi" (pronounced differently from any of the
>> variations of the Greek letter) is a common surname.
>
>In German, the name will often be pronounced like the Greek letter chi.
>Should we skip that one, too? Well, German is not an official language
>at the WHO.
>
>> Naturally there's
>> a fracas about it.
>>
>> <https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52831>
>
>How did this happen:
>
>| Xi (pronounced 'Chi', or 'Ki' with long 'i'/'aye' in Brit English)
>
>I'm not sure what sound the 'ch' is supposed to represent here, but
>whichever way, none of the pronunciations indicated seem to be
>reasonable. According to more reliable sources, the x in xi is
>pronounced /z/, /s/ or /ks/.
>
means the letter name was pronounced /ksaI/ in my classical Greek class.
(That's supposed to use the 'aye' of two paragraphs up, or the 'eye'
near the top of this post.)
--
Paul
Ken Blake
Nov 30, 2021, 11:20:13 AM11/30/21
to
Latin pronounces it CH.
Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
years ago?
Ken Blake
Nov 30, 2021, 11:21:59 AM11/30/21
to
Andy sang as he sat
and waited till his billy boiled.
Adam Funk
Nov 30, 2021, 12:00:08 PM11/30/21
to
inference we have writings by classical Romans (e.g., Cicero, I think)
pronunciation (as well as syntax, morphology, &c.).
--
A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read.
---Mark Twain
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 30, 2021, 12:07:19 PM11/30/21
to
On Tuesday, November 30, 2021 at 11:20:13 AM UTC-5, Ken Blake wrote:
> > Fashions come, fashions go. Very few English speakers use a hard 'C'
> > when speaking of Cicero or Caesar even today.
> When I studied Latin in high school, it was a hard C. Ecclesiastical
> Latin pronounces it CH.
>
> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
> years ago?
W. S. Allen, *Vox Latina* (uniform with *Vox Graeca*, recommended just
> > Fashions come, fashions go. Very few English speakers use a hard 'C'
> > when speaking of Cicero or Caesar even today.
> When I studied Latin in high school, it was a hard C. Ecclesiastical
> Latin pronounces it CH.
>
> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
> years ago?
yesterday).
He had already done one on Sanskrit but from a different point of view
and that was never reissued as *Vox Indica*.
Ken Blake
Nov 30, 2021, 12:14:22 PM11/30/21
to
On 11/30/2021 10:03 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>
> Vox Latina
> by Sidney Allen
>
> because, IIRC, there, not only the pronunciation is described,
> but often also explained why one thinks to know it.
Thanks. I assume the book presnts his opinions, not certain facts.
I'd read it if our library had a copy (it doesn't), and it's too
expensive for me to want to buy it.
> Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com> writes:
>> How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
>>years ago?
>
> I suggest:
>> How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
>>years ago?
>
>
> Vox Latina
> by Sidney Allen
>
> because, IIRC, there, not only the pronunciation is described,
> but often also explained why one thinks to know it.
Thanks. I assume the book presnts his opinions, not certain facts.
I'd read it if our library had a copy (it doesn't), and it's too
expensive for me to want to buy it.
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 30, 2021, 12:24:44 PM11/30/21
to
On Tuesday, November 30, 2021 at 12:14:22 PM UTC-5, Ken Blake wrote:
> On 11/30/2021 10:03 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com> writes:
> >> How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
> >>years ago?
> >
> > I suggest:
> >
> > Vox Latina
> > by Sidney Allen
> >
> > because, IIRC, there, not only the pronunciation is described,
> > but often also explained why one thinks to know it.
>>
> Thanks. I assume the book presnts his opinions, not certain facts.
Does he really have no understanding of scholarship whatsoever?
> On 11/30/2021 10:03 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com> writes:
> >> How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
> >>years ago?
> >
> > I suggest:
> >
> > Vox Latina
> > by Sidney Allen
> >
> > because, IIRC, there, not only the pronunciation is described,
> > but often also explained why one thinks to know it.
>>
> Thanks. I assume the book presnts his opinions, not certain facts.
If anything in the book is "opinion" and not "fact," it is clearly marked
as such. But Blake does not have the slightest idea of how much and
what sort of information is available.
> I'd read it if our library had a copy (it doesn't), and it's too
> expensive for me to want to buy it.
His public library may even have an arrangement with a nearby
university to allow one-day access to its libraryy for holders of a
public library card.
Or, someone could teach him how to use Google, which would lead him to
https://latim.paginas.ufsc.br/files/2012/06/ALLEN-Vox-Latina-A-Guide-to-Pronunciation-of-Classical-Latin-Cambridge-1978.pdf
And then there's (different server; download button at the left)
https://kupdf.net/download/allen-w-sidney-vox-graeca-the-pronunciation-of-classical-greek_59f13ef0e2b6f50178deff2e_pdf
He won't look at my postings, so someone (if there's anyone left
whom he doesn't ignore) should inform him of these.
Paul Wolff
Nov 30, 2021, 12:32:54 PM11/30/21
to
On Tue, 30 Nov 2021, at 09:20:07, Ken Blake posted:
I meant English-in-England, not knowing about other places generally.
evolved with the language of the locals.
Restored Classical Pronunciation. There are clues left behind,
occasionally even statements by Latin authors of the time. Many Latin
and Greek words were cognates, and we know that Greek didn't have a 'C'
but used kappa ('K') or sigma ('S') for the sounds that 'C' doubles up
for in modern English. If the Greeks always used kappa where Latin used
'C', especially when transliterating names like 'Cicero' or 'Caesar',
that would tell us about those names in particular.
--
Paul
>
>When I studied Latin in high school, it was a hard C. Ecclesiastical
>Latin pronounces it CH.
That is based on the Italian model. Roman Catholic Latin presumably
>When I studied Latin in high school, it was a hard C. Ecclesiastical
>Latin pronounces it CH.
evolved with the language of the locals.
>
>Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
>years ago?
This is what I have read, but nothing specifically about 'C' in the
>Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
>years ago?
Restored Classical Pronunciation. There are clues left behind,
occasionally even statements by Latin authors of the time. Many Latin
and Greek words were cognates, and we know that Greek didn't have a 'C'
but used kappa ('K') or sigma ('S') for the sounds that 'C' doubles up
for in modern English. If the Greeks always used kappa where Latin used
'C', especially when transliterating names like 'Cicero' or 'Caesar',
that would tell us about those names in particular.
--
Paul
Lewis
Nov 30, 2021, 12:37:25 PM11/30/21
to
In message <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
Hebrew?
> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
--
Penny: Come with me if you want to live.
Margo: Penny?
Penny: Yeah, sorry, Josh wanted me to say it. It seemed real important to him.
Lewis
Nov 30, 2021, 12:43:41 PM11/30/21
to
In message <6smhwbevveif$.d...@mid.crommatograph.info> Quinn C <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> I'm not sure what sound the 'ch' is supposed to represent here, but
> whichever way, none of the pronunciations indicated seem to be
> reasonable. According to more reliable sources, the x in xi is
> pronounced /z/, /s/ or /ks/.
ODE: xi | ksʌɪ, ɡzʌɪ, sʌɪ, zʌɪ |
> I'm not sure what sound the 'ch' is supposed to represent here, but
> whichever way, none of the pronunciations indicated seem to be
> reasonable. According to more reliable sources, the x in xi is
> pronounced /z/, /s/ or /ks/.
MOAD: xi | zaɪ, ksaɪ |
the fourteenth letter of the Greek alphabet (Ξ, ξ), transliterated as ‘x’.
• (Xi) [followed by Latin genitive ] Astronomy the fourteenth star
in a specified constellation: Xi Cygni.
--
'It's easy to hold everything in common when no one's got anything.'
Lewis
Nov 30, 2021, 12:45:34 PM11/30/21
to
In message <j0n19o...@mid.individual.net> Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com> wrote:
> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
> years ago?
The Romans said "Kaiser".
> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
> years ago?
--
You're so bad at doing acid!
Lewis
Nov 30, 2021, 12:51:12 PM11/30/21
to
one does not have a book they can generally get it from another library.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlibrary_loan>
--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Sure, Brain, but how are we going to find chaps our size?"
Tony Cooper
Nov 30, 2021, 12:58:44 PM11/30/21
to
On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Or, someone could teach him how to use Google, which would lead him to
>
Winner of the "Most Ironic Observation" of the week.
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Or, someone could teach him how to use Google, which would lead him to
>
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Richard Heathfield
Nov 30, 2021, 1:12:18 PM11/30/21
to
On 30/11/2021 16:20, Ken Blake wrote:
> How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000 years ago?
You have been directed to a published work on the subject, but you seem
> How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000 years ago?
still sceptical.
Let me give you a couple of examples.
Common misspellings are one way that the past hints to us on Latin's
pronunciation. To give you an English parallel, the common misspelling
of "supersede" as "supercede" will hint to future scholars that we often
but by no means always pronounce "c" as soft (because if we didn't, we
wouldn't make that particular mistake). Rhyming poetry is another
obvious way in which we can derive useful pronunciation from a textual
source. Scholars have become very, very good at inferring a very great
deal from a very, very little.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter T. Daniels
Nov 30, 2021, 2:13:03 PM11/30/21
to
On Tuesday, November 30, 2021 at 12:58:44 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >Or, someone could teach him how to use Google, which would lead him to
>
> Winner of the "Most Ironic Observation" of the week.
Sorry, moron. Just because I'm rarely or never interested in looking up
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >Or, someone could teach him how to use Google, which would lead him to
>
> Winner of the "Most Ironic Observation" of the week.
the things that you throw up doesn't mean I don't look up things worth
looking up.
If you were a decent person, you would have reproduced the links for
Blake's benefit.
Ken Blake
Nov 30, 2021, 2:40:22 PM11/30/21
to
On 11/30/2021 10:37 AM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
>> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
>
> Hebrew?
You're not supposed to use those gender-specific terms here. That's
> In message <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
>> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
>
> Hebrew?
Theybrew.
Ken Blake
Nov 30, 2021, 2:42:05 PM11/30/21
to
On 11/30/2021 10:51 AM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <j0n4f9...@mid.individual.net> Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com> wrote:
>> On 11/30/2021 10:03 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com> writes:
>>>> How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
>>>>years ago?
>>>
>>> I suggest:
>>>
>>> Vox Latina
>>> by Sidney Allen
>>>
>>> because, IIRC, there, not only the pronunciation is described,
>>> but often also explained why one thinks to know it.
>
>
>> Thanks. I assume the book presnts his opinions, not certain facts.
>
>> I'd read it if our library had a copy (it doesn't), and it's too
>> expensive for me to want to buy it.
>
> Almost all libraries are part of the Interlibrary Loan program and if
> one does not have a book they can generally get it from another library.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlibrary_loan>
Yes, I know that ours is too. However a book taken out that way has to
> In message <j0n4f9...@mid.individual.net> Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com> wrote:
>> On 11/30/2021 10:03 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>> Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com> writes:
>>>> How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
>>>>years ago?
>>>
>>> I suggest:
>>>
>>> Vox Latina
>>> by Sidney Allen
>>>
>>> because, IIRC, there, not only the pronunciation is described,
>>> but often also explained why one thinks to know it.
>
>
>> Thanks. I assume the book presnts his opinions, not certain facts.
>
>> I'd read it if our library had a copy (it doesn't), and it's too
>> expensive for me to want to buy it.
>
> Almost all libraries are part of the Interlibrary Loan program and if
> one does not have a book they can generally get it from another library.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlibrary_loan>
be returned in one week, I think. I already have too big a stack of
library books to read.
Maybe one of these days.
Ken Blake
Nov 30, 2021, 2:47:24 PM11/30/21
to
On 11/30/2021 10:45 AM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <j0n19o...@mid.individual.net> Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com> wrote:
>> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
>> years ago?
>
> The Romans said "Kaiser".
You're on a roll.
> In message <j0n19o...@mid.individual.net> Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com> wrote:
>> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
>> years ago?
>
> The Romans said "Kaiser".
Kerr-Mudd, John
Nov 30, 2021, 2:51:35 PM11/30/21
to
On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 08:18:01 -0500
CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/28/2021 9:57 PM, S K wrote:
> > Garrett Wollman wrote:
> >> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because
> >>> modern Greek pronunciation may be different.
> >> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>
> > now THAT beats "the tomato is not a vegetable", if true.
>
> > but is it?
>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iotacism
>
> Its own WParticle. Who knew?
>
Iz this one of those cascade threads again, bosun?
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/28/2021 9:57 PM, S K wrote:
> > Garrett Wollman wrote:
> >> Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> The acid test is how the ancient Greeks pronounced them because
> >>> modern Greek pronunciation may be different.
> >> All vowels in modern Greek are collpased to /i/.
>
> > now THAT beats "the tomato is not a vegetable", if true.
>
> > but is it?
>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iotacism
>
> Its own WParticle. Who knew?
>
Iz this one of those cascade threads again, bosun?
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Peter Moylan
Nov 30, 2021, 5:30:34 PM11/30/21
to
version with "sat". It's possible, of course.
Snidely
Nov 30, 2021, 5:32:07 PM11/30/21
to
Lo, on the 11/30/2021, Ken Blake did proclaim ...
It takes a bit krust to say that.
-d
--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain
-d
--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain
Ken Blake
Nov 30, 2021, 5:37:29 PM11/30/21
to
https://kids.niehs.nih.gov/games/songs/childrens/waltzing-matilda/index.htm
Peter Moylan
Nov 30, 2021, 5:38:26 PM11/30/21
to
On 01/12/21 04:37, Lewis wrote:
> In message <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
>> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
>
> Hebrew?
No, just the end of the world. Omega has strong meanings.
> In message <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
>> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
>
> Hebrew?
Mack A. Damia
Nov 30, 2021, 6:08:59 PM11/30/21
to
On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 14:32:00 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>Lo, on the 11/30/2021, Ken Blake did proclaim ...
>> On 11/30/2021 10:45 AM, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <j0n19o...@mid.individual.net> Ken Blake
>>> <K...@invalidinvalid.com> wrote:
>>>> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000 years
>>>> ago?
>>>
>>> The Romans said "Kaiser".
>>
>>
>> You're on a roll.
>
>It takes a bit krust to say that.
Do you always have to get the last word in?
Does it always have to be idiot-speak?
wrote:
>Lo, on the 11/30/2021, Ken Blake did proclaim ...
>> On 11/30/2021 10:45 AM, Lewis wrote:
>>> In message <j0n19o...@mid.individual.net> Ken Blake
>>> <K...@invalidinvalid.com> wrote:
>>>> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000 years
>>>> ago?
>>>
>>> The Romans said "Kaiser".
>>
>>
>> You're on a roll.
>
>It takes a bit krust to say that.
Does it always have to be idiot-speak?
Quinn C
Nov 30, 2021, 6:32:37 PM11/30/21
to
* Peter Moylan:
> On 30/11/21 02:25, Ken Blake wrote:
--
Do they have hot baseball now, after hot yoga?
> On 30/11/21 02:25, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 11/29/2021 3:16 AM, Janet wrote:
>>> In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>>> says...
>
>>> In article <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me>, pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid
>>> says...
>
>>>> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
>>>> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to
>>>> omega?
>>>
>>>> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to
>>>> omega?
>>>
>>> We start giving them person names, like hurricanes. The big question
>>> is, do we start with female names or male names.
>>> (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
>>
>>> is, do we start with female names or male names.
>>> (I can't think of a genderless name beginning with A).
>>
>> Andy?
>
> That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".
>
> Andy sang as he watched
> Andy waited till his billy boiled.
Why would one want to boil a club?
>
> That's the name of the swagman in the song "Waltzing Matilda".
>
> Andy sang as he watched
> Andy waited till his billy boiled.
--
Do they have hot baseball now, after hot yoga?
Snidely
Nov 30, 2021, 7:31:46 PM11/30/21
to
Mack A. Damia is guilty of <lmbdqglhm47spt7hm...@4ax.com>
as of 11/30/2021 3:08:51 PM
Actually, I was trying to set up the next joke. Are you volunteering?
-d
--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl
as of 11/30/2021 3:08:51 PM
-d
--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl
Mack A. Damia
Nov 30, 2021, 7:51:40 PM11/30/21
to
On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 16:31:40 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>Mack A. Damia is guilty of <lmbdqglhm47spt7hm...@4ax.com>
>as of 11/30/2021 3:08:51 PM
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 14:32:00 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Lo, on the 11/30/2021, Ken Blake did proclaim ...
>>>> On 11/30/2021 10:45 AM, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <j0n19o...@mid.individual.net> Ken Blake
>>>>> <K...@invalidinvalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000 years
>>>>>> ago?
>>>>>
>>>>> The Romans said "Kaiser".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're on a roll.
>>>
>>> It takes a bit krust to say that.
>>
>> Do you always have to get the last word in?
>>
>> Does it always have to be idiot-speak?
>
>Actually, I was trying to set up the next joke. Are you volunteering?
What is your mother going to say to you now that she knows you are a
two-faced little prick?
wrote:
>Mack A. Damia is guilty of <lmbdqglhm47spt7hm...@4ax.com>
>as of 11/30/2021 3:08:51 PM
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 14:32:00 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Lo, on the 11/30/2021, Ken Blake did proclaim ...
>>>> On 11/30/2021 10:45 AM, Lewis wrote:
>>>>> In message <j0n19o...@mid.individual.net> Ken Blake
>>>>> <K...@invalidinvalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000 years
>>>>>> ago?
>>>>>
>>>>> The Romans said "Kaiser".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're on a roll.
>>>
>>> It takes a bit krust to say that.
>>
>> Do you always have to get the last word in?
>>
>> Does it always have to be idiot-speak?
>
>Actually, I was trying to set up the next joke. Are you volunteering?
two-faced little prick?
Peter Moylan
Nov 30, 2021, 8:52:58 PM11/30/21
to
it credit it does show the original words further down. Perhaps someone
thought the altered words were more suitable for children.
The audio has a bit of a hillbilly feel to it.
Madhu
Nov 30, 2021, 11:49:47 PM11/30/21
to
* "Peter T. Daniels" <83e14d90-4cc7-4d02-b547-9d95bcefa1d6n @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST):
>
> https://latim.paginas.ufsc.br/files/2012/06/ALLEN-Vox-Latina-A-Guide-to-Pronunciation-of-Classical-Latin-Cambridge-1978.pdf
that works
https://archive.org/search.php?query=vox%20latina
i think at least 8 of 26 results are for vax latina
> And then there's (different server; download button at the left)
>
> https://kupdf.net/download/allen-w-sidney-vox-graeca-the-pronunciation-of-classical-greek_59f13ef0e2b6f50178deff2e_pdf
are ripoffs usually repackaging free content behind surveillance
javascript
lar3ryca
Nov 30, 2021, 11:55:12 PM11/30/21
to
On Tuesday, November 30, 2021 at 4:38:26 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 01/12/21 04:37, Lewis wrote:
> > In message <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> >> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
> >
> > Hebrew?
> No, just the end of the world. Omega has strong meanings.
https://www.cybersalt.org/funny-pictures/mayan-calendar-break
> On 01/12/21 04:37, Lewis wrote:
> > In message <so1iru$k5r$1...@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >> What bothers me about the omicron variant of covid-19 is that we've
> >> passed the halfway point of the alphabet. What happens when we get to omega?
> >
> > Hebrew?
> No, just the end of the world. Omega has strong meanings.
Madhu
Nov 30, 2021, 11:56:45 PM11/30/21
to
* Peter Moylan <so6khm$65u$1...@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Wed, 1 Dec 2021 12:52:53 +1100:
site (was deartilly) http://matildascully.com/
warning nsfw nudes
Madhu
Dec 1, 2021, 12:09:44 AM12/1/21
to
* Madhu <m335ncn...@leonis4.robolove.meer.net> :
Wrote on Wed, 01 Dec 2021 10:26:41 +0530:
(only one nude, but i guess she has mostly the american version on that
page and not the one listed as "Authentic Australian
Version". nevermind)
Wrote on Wed, 01 Dec 2021 10:26:41 +0530:
page and not the one listed as "Authentic Australian
Version". nevermind)
Tak To
Dec 1, 2021, 1:46:50 AM12/1/21
to
On 11/30/2021 4:27 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2021-11-30, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> On 29/11/21 23:33, occam wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2021 04:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>>>> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
>>>
>>> Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
>>> cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
>>> on the first syllable)
>>
>> True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
>>
> On 2021-11-30, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> On 29/11/21 23:33, occam wrote:
>>> On 29/11/2021 04:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>>>> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter except iota.
>>>
>>> Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the person who
>>> cares, and he will tell you the Greeks pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis
>>> on the first syllable)
>>
>> True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
>>
>> I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were mathematical
>> symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
>> used in somebody's language.
>>
>>>> I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
>>>> said it.
>>>
>>> And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
>>> ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
>>
>> There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
>> became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
>> pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
>> Rome.
>>
>>> And whatever happened to covid variants: ε, ζ, η, θ, Ι , κ, λ, μ,
>> symbols. We didn't give much thought to the fact that they were also
>> used in somebody's language.
>>
>>>> I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient Greeks
>>>> said it.
>>>
>>> And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to how the
>>> ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
>>
>> There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England before he
>> became a professor of Classics, and even I could tell that the way he
>> pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of England rather than the Latin of
>> Rome.
>>
>>> ν, ξ ? (I would have liked to have known the Lambda variant.)
>>
>> ν was skipped because somebody thought it would be confused with the
>> English word "new", and ξ appears to have been skipped for political
>> reasons. (Offensive to the Chinese leader? Nobody is saying.)
>
> Officially because "Xi" (pronounced differently from any of the
> variations of the Greek letter) is a common surname. Naturally there's
> a fracas about it.
>
> <https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52831>
The above Language Log article mentions that the Chinese
President's surname 習/习 <xi2> is absent from a 2013 list of the
400 most common surnames in China[1]. However, it should be
pointed out that it is in a 2007 list of the 500 most common
surnames[1], at the 395th place.
Moreover, in the top 400 list, there are the surnames 席 <xi2>
(213rd) and 奚 <xi1> (278th), with a total of about 710K people.
OTOH, the surnames 牟 <mu4> (183rd), 穆 <mu4> (188th), 母 <mu3>
(344th), and 慕 <mu4> (361st) together accounts for 1.5M people.
Unfair, isn't it?
Further down the list of letters, there is 皮 <pi2> (279th)
with about 229K people.
And 池 <chi2> (251st) and 遲/迟 <chi2> (255th) with about 660K
people.
I should perhaps mention that my own surname 陶 <tao2> is at
the 85th place with 2.7M people. Will the WHO would skip tau
for us?
Similarly, 司 <si1> (190th) and 斯 <si1> (383rd) together
have about 683K people. Close enough to psi?
[1]
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E5%A7%93%E6%B0%8F%E6%8E%92%E5%90%8D#2013%E5%B9%B44%E6%9C%88
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Adam Funk
Dec 1, 2021, 4:15:06 AM12/1/21
to
> Similarly, 司 <si1> (190th) and 斯 <si1> (383rd) together
> have about 683K people. Close enough to psi?
>
> [1]
> https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E5%A7%93%E6%B0%8F%E6%8E%92%E5%90%8D#2013%E5%B9%B44%E6%9C%88
>
--
reins of steel, and it's all right
Adam Funk
Dec 1, 2021, 4:15:07 AM12/1/21
to
--
The history of the world is the history of a privileged few.
---Henry Miller
Adam Funk
Dec 1, 2021, 4:15:08 AM12/1/21
to
--
To live without killing is a thought which could electrify the world,
if men were only capable of staying awake long enough to let the idea
soak in. ---Henry Miller
CDB
Dec 1, 2021, 8:39:30 AM12/1/21
to
On 11/30/2021 11:20 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> Paul Wolff wrote:
>> Quinn C posted:
>>> * Adam Funk:
>>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>> slight second syllable stress - the same pattern as in omicron,
>> and with the same 'i' in each word.
>>>>> I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were
>>>>> mathematical symbols. We didn't give much thought to the
>>>>> fact that they were also used in somebody's language.
>>>>>>> I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient
>>>>>>> Greeks said it.
+ me.
>>>>>> And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to
>>>>>> how the ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
>>>>> There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England
>>>>> before he became a professor of Classics, and even I could
>>>>> tell that the way he pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of
>>>>> England rather than the Latin of Rome.
My practice is to say it like Kikero when quoting classical Latin and
like the Pope when it's religious text. In ordinary English contexts, I
see no reason to change the traditional English pronunciation. "Bonner
fighdee", if you're non-rhotic.
>> Fashions come, fashions go. Very few English speakers use a hard
>> 'C' when speaking of Cicero or Caesar even today.
> When I studied Latin in high school, it was a hard C. Ecclesiastical
> Latin pronounces it CH.
And the traditional English pronunciation makes it [s], as in - uh -
"Cicero" and "Caesar".
> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
> years ago?
I think the clincher was finding Latin words that had "c"s before front
vowels transcribed into Greek with kappas. I think the main concern in
using Latin (or Greek) in English ought to be clarity of meaning, and
perhaps the scholarly reputation of the speaker.
> Paul Wolff wrote:
>> Quinn C posted:
>>> * Adam Funk:
>>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>> occam wrote:
>>>>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter
>>>>>>> except iota.
>>>>>> Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the
>>>>>> person who cares, and he will tell you the Greeks
>>>>>> pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis on the first syllable)
>>>>> True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
>> Eye-ota, more or less, is my usage, as taught at school, with
>>>>>> Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>> AusE has first-syllable stress on every Greek letter
>>>>>>> except iota.
>>>>>> Is that because you pronounce it 'eye-yota'? Ask the
>>>>>> person who cares, and he will tell you the Greeks
>>>>>> pronounce it yo-ta (emphasis on the first syllable)
>>>>> True, but we don't make much effort to sound Greek.
>> slight second syllable stress - the same pattern as in omicron,
>> and with the same 'i' in each word.
>>>>> I grew up in an atmosphere where Greek letters were
>>>>> mathematical symbols. We didn't give much thought to the
>>>>> fact that they were also used in somebody's language.
>>>>>>> I've only met one person who cared about how the ancient
>>>>>>> Greeks said it.
>>>>>> And did he have any evidence (apart from patriotism) as to
>>>>>> how the ancient Greeks said it? (I don't know of any.)
>>>>> There was some doubt about his caring. He was from England
>>>>> before he became a professor of Classics, and even I could
>>>>> tell that the way he pronounced Latin had to be the Latin of
>>>>> England rather than the Latin of Rome.
like the Pope when it's religious text. In ordinary English contexts, I
see no reason to change the traditional English pronunciation. "Bonner
fighdee", if you're non-rhotic.
>> Fashions come, fashions go. Very few English speakers use a hard
>> 'C' when speaking of Cicero or Caesar even today.
> When I studied Latin in high school, it was a hard C. Ecclesiastical
> Latin pronounces it CH.
And the traditional English pronunciation makes it [s], as in - uh -
"Cicero" and "Caesar".
> Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
> years ago?
vowels transcribed into Greek with kappas. I think the main concern in
using Latin (or Greek) in English ought to be clarity of meaning, and
perhaps the scholarly reputation of the speaker.
CDB
Dec 1, 2021, 8:48:59 AM12/1/21
to
On 11/30/2021 12:24 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[pronunciation of Latin and ancient Greek]
[...]
PeterTD has kindly offered these URLs to help us explore the question:
> https://latim.paginas.ufsc.br/files/2012/06/ALLEN-Vox-Latina-A-Guide-to-Pronunciation-of-Classical-Latin-Cambridge-1978.pdf
>
And then there's (different server; download button at the left)
> https://kupdf.net/download/allen-w-sidney-vox-graeca-the-pronunciation-of-classical-greek_59f13ef0e2b6f50178deff2e_pdf
> He won't look at my postings, so someone (if there's anyone left
> whom he doesn't ignore) should inform him of these.
I don't know whether or not he (KenB) ignores my postings. Maybe we'll
find out.
[pronunciation of Latin and ancient Greek]
[...]
PeterTD has kindly offered these URLs to help us explore the question:
> https://latim.paginas.ufsc.br/files/2012/06/ALLEN-Vox-Latina-A-Guide-to-Pronunciation-of-Classical-Latin-Cambridge-1978.pdf
>
And then there's (different server; download button at the left)
> https://kupdf.net/download/allen-w-sidney-vox-graeca-the-pronunciation-of-classical-greek_59f13ef0e2b6f50178deff2e_pdf
> whom he doesn't ignore) should inform him of these.
I don't know whether or not he (KenB) ignores my postings. Maybe we'll
find out.
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 1, 2021, 10:07:10 AM12/1/21
to
On Tuesday, November 30, 2021 at 11:49:47 PM UTC-5, Madhu wrote:
> * "Peter T. Daniels" <83e14d90-4cc7-4d02-b547-9d95bcefa1d6n @googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST):
> > https://latim.paginas.ufsc.br/files/2012/06/ALLEN-Vox-Latina-A-Guide-to-Pronunciation-of-Classical-Latin-Cambridge-1978.pdf
> that works
>
> https://archive.org/search.php?query=vox%20latina
>
> i think at least 8 of 26 results are for vax latina
That makes sense, since that's what you asked for.
> * "Peter T. Daniels" <83e14d90-4cc7-4d02-b547-9d95bcefa1d6n @googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST):
> > https://latim.paginas.ufsc.br/files/2012/06/ALLEN-Vox-Latina-A-Guide-to-Pronunciation-of-Classical-Latin-Cambridge-1978.pdf
> that works
>
> https://archive.org/search.php?query=vox%20latina
>
> i think at least 8 of 26 results are for vax latina
> > And then there's (different server; download button at the left)
> > https://kupdf.net/download/allen-w-sidney-vox-graeca-the-pronunciation-of-classical-greek_59f13ef0e2b6f50178deff2e_pdf
>
> this one is behind google captcha and doesn't work. those "pdf" sites
> are ripoffs usually repackaging free content behind surveillance
> javascript
since I got both books back when they weren't expensive).
Is it your paranoia that has a problem with captcha?
Jerry Friedman
Dec 1, 2021, 10:38:17 AM12/1/21
to
On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 6:39:30 AM UTC-7, CDB wrote:
> On 11/30/2021 11:20 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
...
> On 11/30/2021 11:20 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> > Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
> > years ago?
> I think the clincher was finding Latin words that had "c"s before front
> vowels transcribed into Greek with kappas. I think the main concern in
> using Latin (or Greek) in English ought to be clarity of meaning, and
> perhaps the scholarly reputation of the speaker.
Ta Kaisaros apodote Kaisari.
The things of Caesar give back to Caesar.
https://biblehub.com/text/mark/12-17.htm
--
Jerry Friedman
Ken Blake
Dec 1, 2021, 11:06:06 AM12/1/21
to
what a "billabong" was. I've long known it was a body of water, but I
never before knew it was what I know as an "oxbow lake."
Ken Blake
Dec 1, 2021, 11:07:16 AM12/1/21
to
J. J. Lodder
Dec 1, 2021, 12:31:01 PM12/1/21
to
Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 6:39:30 AM UTC-7, CDB wrote:
> > On 11/30/2021 11:20 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > > Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
> > > years ago?
>
> > I think the clincher was finding Latin words that had "c"s before front
> > vowels transcribed into Greek with kappas. I think the main concern in
> > using Latin (or Greek) in English ought to be clarity of meaning, and
> > perhaps the scholarly reputation of the speaker.
>
> ?? ???????? ?π????? ???????.
> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 6:39:30 AM UTC-7, CDB wrote:
> > On 11/30/2021 11:20 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > > Which is right? How does anyone know how the Romans said it it 2000
> > > years ago?
>
> > I think the clincher was finding Latin words that had "c"s before front
> > vowels transcribed into Greek with kappas. I think the main concern in
> > using Latin (or Greek) in English ought to be clarity of meaning, and
> > perhaps the scholarly reputation of the speaker.
>
>
> Ta Kaisaros apodote Kaisari.
>
> The things of Caesar give back to Caesar.
Well known to all students of Asterix.
> Ta Kaisaros apodote Kaisari.
>
> The things of Caesar give back to Caesar.
No need to invoke bibles,
Jan
> https://biblehub.com/text/mark/12-17.htm
Sam Plusnet
Dec 1, 2021, 12:38:42 PM12/1/21
to
--
Sam Plusnet
Sam Plusnet
Dec 1, 2021, 12:45:34 PM12/1/21
to
On 30-Nov-21 19:13, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 30, 2021 at 12:58:44 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>> Or, someone could teach him how to use Google, which would lead him to
>>
>> Winner of the "Most Ironic Observation" of the week.
>
> Sorry, moron. Just because I'm rarely or never interested in looking up
> the things that you throw up doesn't mean I don't look up things worth
> looking up.
>
> If you were a decent person, you would have reproduced the links for
> Blake's benefit.
>
Perhaps Ken wasn't interested in looking that up. If that is sufficient
to justify your behaviour, it must be equally valid for him.
Could you explain your use of "decent"?
--
Sam Plusnet
> On Tuesday, November 30, 2021 at 12:58:44 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:24:42 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>> Or, someone could teach him how to use Google, which would lead him to
>>
>> Winner of the "Most Ironic Observation" of the week.
>
> Sorry, moron. Just because I'm rarely or never interested in looking up
> the things that you throw up doesn't mean I don't look up things worth
> looking up.
>
> If you were a decent person, you would have reproduced the links for
> Blake's benefit.
>
Perhaps Ken wasn't interested in looking that up. If that is sufficient
to justify your behaviour, it must be equally valid for him.
Could you explain your use of "decent"?
--
Sam Plusnet
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