And again; nouns ending in vowel + y

[Django Cat]

This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:

day - way - delay - essay - money

(that last one won't work as talking about its plural would only
confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be countable nouns)

Same terms and conditions apply:

http://www.theoakwood.net/


Cheers,

DC

--

[Harrison Hill]

On Feb 21, 11:57 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> wrote:
> This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:
>
> day - way - delay - essay - money
>
> (that last one won't work as talking about its plural would only
> confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be countable nouns)

I seem to be an EFL learner because this is Greek to me. You want
prefixes that create "vowel + y"-ending nouns that are synonyms of
your list?

[Django Cat]

No, I just need nouns that end with a vowel (probably one of the letter
vowels AEIOU rather than a vowel *sound* spelt without one of them [1])
and then the letter y. This is so I can write a teaching unit showing
how this class of words work differently as plurals from words that end
consonent + y (day - days but hobby - hobbies).


So my list is just of some I've already got - some more examples would
be

boy - toy - valley - donkey

'Money' doesn't work because it's an uncountable noun - we don't
usually make it into a plural (Yes, I know 'monies' exits, but not on
Planet Intermediate EFL it doesn't need to.)

I don't have any nouns ending 'uy - though I have the verb 'buy'. I'm
also yet to find /any/ words - of whatever part of speech - that end
with -iy.


[1] Though I can't think of an example of a word with a non AEIOU vowel
sound +y

DC

--

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2012-02-21 12:57:58 +0100, "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com> said:

> This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:
>
> day - way - delay - essay - money
>
> (that last one won't work as talking about its plural would only
> confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be countable nouns)

boy - buoy - stay - quay - key


--
athel

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:37:20 GMT, "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com>
wrote:

>I don't have any nouns ending 'uy - though I have the verb 'buy'.

"guy" seems to be the only common one.

"soliloquy" is well out of range, even further out are "colloquy",
"obloquy" and "ventriloquy".

> I'm
>also yet to find /any/ words - of whatever part of speech - that end
>with -iy.

A wildcard search at Onelook.com finds several pages of words of a
Russian appearance (names). Restricting the search to "common words
only" gives only two results: the initialism "DIY" and the Russian
placename "Gorkiy".


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Django Cat]

Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:37:20 GMT, "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I don't have any nouns ending 'uy - though I have the verb 'buy'.
>
> "guy" seems to be the only common one.

Oops - yes, I had found that one NICTTOI.

>
> "soliloquy" is well out of range, even further out are "colloquy",
> "obloquy" and "ventriloquy".
>
> > I'm

> > also yet to find any words - of whatever part of speech - that end

> > with -iy.
>
> A wildcard search at Onelook.com finds several pages of words of a
> Russian appearance (names). Restricting the search to "common words
> only" gives only two results: the initialism "DIY" and the Russian
> placename "Gorkiy".

Hmm, sadly we can't pluralise DIY - thanks anyway, Peter.

DC

--

[Harrison Hill]

On Feb 21, 4:37 pm, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> wrote:
> Harrison Hill wrote:
> > On Feb 21, 11:57 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> wrote:
> > > This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:
>
> > > day - way - delay - essay - money
>
> > > (that last one won't work as talking about its plural would only
> > > confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be countable
> > > nouns)
>
> > I seem to be an EFL learner because this is Greek to me. You want
> > prefixes that create "vowel + y"-ending  nouns that are synonyms of
> > your list?
>
> No, I just need nouns that end with a vowel (probably one of the letter
> vowels AEIOU rather than a vowel *sound* spelt without one of them [1])
> and then the letter y. This is so I can write a teaching unit showing
> how this class of words work differently as plurals from words that end
> consonent + y (day - days but hobby - hobbies).
>
> So my list is just of some I've already got - some more examples would
> be
>
> boy - toy - valley - donkey
>
> 'Money' doesn't work because it's an uncountable noun - we don't
> usually make it into a plural (Yes, I know 'monies' exits, but not on
> Planet Intermediate EFL it doesn't need to.)

That is beautifully put. I don't suppose they will will have much use
for "obloquys" either, but I guess it is probably: "obloquies".

[Django Cat]

Nice one - I can use 'key' for sure.

DC

--

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

Are these suitable?

"play", "ray", "jockey", "kidney", "trolley", "valley", "toy".

"joy" is usable as a countable noun but is probably too advanced.

[Django Cat]

Harrison Hill wrote:

> On Feb 21, 4:37 pm, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> wrote:
> > Harrison Hill wrote:
> > > On Feb 21, 11:57 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> wrote:
> > > > This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:
> >
> > > > day - way - delay - essay - money
> >
> > > > (that last one won't work as talking about its plural would only
> > > > confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be countable
> > > > nouns)
> >
> > > I seem to be an EFL learner because this is Greek to me. You want
> > > prefixes that create "vowel + y"-ending  nouns that are synonyms
> > > of your list?
> >
> > No, I just need nouns that end with a vowel (probably one of the

> > letter vowels AEIOU rather than a vowel sound spelt without one of

> > them [1]) and then the letter y. This is so I can write a teaching
> > unit showing how this class of words work differently as plurals
> > from words that end consonent + y (day - days but hobby - hobbies).
> >
> > So my list is just of some I've already got - some more examples
> > would be
> >
> > boy - toy - valley - donkey
> >
> > 'Money' doesn't work because it's an uncountable noun - we don't
> > usually make it into a plural (Yes, I know 'monies' exits, but not
> > on Planet Intermediate EFL it doesn't need to.)
>
> That is beautifully put.

Ta very much!

>I don't suppose they will will have much use
> for "obloquys" either, but I guess it is probably: "obloquies".

I think obloquy is uncountable, but if it wasn't the rule would say the
plural should be obloguys - that gets 52,100 Google UK hits against
49,200 for obloquies.

DC


--

[Leslie Danks]

yippee-iy-ay!

--
Les
(BrE)

[the Omrud]

bogey, convoy, drey, donkey, jockey (for the donkey), kidney, osprey,
surrey (with a fringe on top), whiskey, trolley, turnkey, volley.

--
David

[Jerry Friedman]

On Feb 21, 9:37 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> wrote:
> Harrison Hill wrote:
> > On Feb 21, 11:57 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> wrote:
> > > This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:
>
> > > day - way - delay - essay - money
>
> > > (that last one won't work as talking about its plural would only
> > > confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be countable
> > > nouns)
>
> > I seem to be an EFL learner because this is Greek to me. You want
> > prefixes that create "vowel + y"-ending  nouns that are synonyms of
> > your list?
>
> No, I just need nouns that end with a vowel (probably one of the letter
> vowels AEIOU rather than a vowel *sound* spelt without one of them [1])
> and then the letter y. This is so I can write a teaching unit showing
> how this class of words work differently as plurals from words that end
> consonent + y (day - days but hobby - hobbies).

Next: the Three Marys and the Dead Kennedys.

> So my list is just of some I've already got - some more examples would
> be
>
> boy - toy - valley - donkey

tray, monkey, ploy

> 'Money' doesn't work because it's an uncountable noun - we don't
> usually make it into a plural (Yes, I know 'monies' exits, but not on
> Planet Intermediate EFL it doesn't need to.)
>
> I don't have any nouns ending 'uy - though I have the verb 'buy'. I'm
> also yet to find /any/ words - of whatever part of speech - that end
> with -iy.

Just as well.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Django Cat]

Jerry Friedman wrote:

> > No, I just need nouns that end with a vowel (probably one of the

> > letter vowels AEIOU rather than a vowel sound spelt without one of

> > them [1]) and then the letter y. This is so I can write a teaching
> > unit showing how this class of words work differently as plurals
> > from words that end consonent + y (day - days but hobby - hobbies).
>
> Next: the Three Marys and the Dead Kennedys.

Just a minute there, *I* do the punk rock references around here...

DC

--

[Django Cat]

Yup, the yippee-iy-ays have it...

DC

--

[Django Cat]

There's also the cockney up a chimney in a jersey talking baloney about
hockey.

DC is this how rap started?

--

[Django Cat]

All usable except (on this occasion) 'play' as it's already in as a
verb.

DC

--

[Andrew B]

On 21/02/2012 17:21, Django Cat wrote:

> Harrison Hill wrote:
>
>> I don't suppose they will will have much use
>> for "obloquys" either, but I guess it is probably: "obloquies".
>
> I think obloquy is uncountable, but if it wasn't the rule would say the
> plural should be obloguys - that gets 52,100 Google UK hits against
> 49,200 for obloquies.

"Soliloquies" gets over twice as many hits as "soliloquys", and is what
I was taught.

[Django Cat]

Looks more convincing, doesn't it? Anyone out there with good
dictionary access? Peter?


DC, teacher: what you were taught isn't always definitive

--

[Skitt]

Django Cat wrote:

I have not paid attention to who it is, but someone here is often
forming wrong plurals of some words that in the singular end with y.

--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 22:24:20 GMT, "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com>
wrote:

The OED doesn't specify the plural for the word; however, the quotations
all use "soliloquies".

[Django Cat]

It's probably me. It usually is.

DC

--

[Django Cat]

I wonder if there's any other multi syllable words where -ies is
preferred...

--

[Robert Bannister]

guy

>
> [1] Though I can't think of an example of a word with a non AEIOU vowel
> sound +y
>
> DC
>


--

Robert Bannister

[Peter Moylan]

Django Cat wrote:
> Harrison Hill wrote:
>
>> On Feb 21, 11:57 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> wrote:
>>> This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:
>>>
>>> day - way - delay - essay - money
>>>
>>> (that last one won't work as talking about its plural would only
>>> confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be countable
>>> nouns)
>> I seem to be an EFL learner because this is Greek to me. You want
>> prefixes that create "vowel + y"-ending nouns that are synonyms of
>> your list?
>
> No, I just need nouns that end with a vowel (probably one of the letter
> vowels AEIOU rather than a vowel *sound* spelt without one of them [1])
> and then the letter y. This is so I can write a teaching unit showing
> how this class of words work differently as plurals from words that end
> consonent + y (day - days but hobby - hobbies).

[...]

> [1] Though I can't think of an example of a word with a non AEIOU vowel
> sound +y

It's not entirely clear to me what you mean by a "non AEIOU vowel
sound". Obviously you don't want a vowel that's not a vowel, so
presumably you want something outside the group of the five most obvious
vowels in English (whatever they are).

Anyway, I'll offer "joey".

--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

[Jack Campin]

>>>> "Soliloquies" gets over twice as many hits as "soliloquys",
>>>> and is what I was taught.

>> The OED doesn't specify the plural for the word; however, the
>> quotations all use "soliloquies".
> I wonder if there's any other multi syllable words where -ies is
> preferred...

Colloquy

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Snidely]

Peter Moylan brought next idea :

> Django Cat wrote:
>> Harrison Hill wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 21, 11:57 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> wrote:
>>>> This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:
>>>>
>>>> day - way - delay - essay - money
>>>>
>>>> (that last one won't work as talking about its plural would only
>>>> confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be countable
>>>> nouns)
>>> I seem to be an EFL learner because this is Greek to me. You want
>>> prefixes that create "vowel + y"-ending nouns that are synonyms of
>>> your list?
>>
>> No, I just need nouns that end with a vowel (probably one of the letter
>> vowels AEIOU rather than a vowel *sound* spelt without one of them [1])
>> and then the letter y. This is so I can write a teaching unit showing
>> how this class of words work differently as plurals from words that end
>> consonent + y (day - days but hobby - hobbies).
>
> [...]
>
>> [1] Though I can't think of an example of a word with a non AEIOU vowel
>> sound +y
>
> It's not entirely clear to me what you mean by a "non AEIOU vowel
> sound". Obviously you don't want a vowel that's not a vowel, so
> presumably you want something outside the group of the five most obvious
> vowels in English (whatever they are).

I think he wants something where the vowel sound is written with the
letters in the set {a,e,i,o,u}. There's a slew of possibilities that
lead you to the slough of despond because of some grumpy use of
would-be consonants.

> Anyway, I'll offer "joey".

Hop to it.

/dps

[James Hogg]

COD still has "soliloquies", and I think it's not alone in saying that.

--
James

[Django Cat]

Jack Campin wrote:

> >>>> "Soliloquies" gets over twice as many hits as "soliloquys",
> >>>> and is what I was taught.
> >> The OED doesn't specify the plural for the word; however, the
> >> quotations all use "soliloquies".
> > I wonder if there's any other multi syllable words where -ies is
> > preferred...
>
> Colloquy

... and which doesn't end with -quy.

DC


--

[Django Cat]

So there's at the very least a class of words in -quy that don't follow
the spelling rule...

Years ago I did a small piece of research that indicated teaching EFL
students so-called spelling rules was a waste of time verging on self
defeating. Hmm...

DC

--

[Django Cat]

Robert Bannister wrote:

> > I don't have any nouns ending 'uy - though I have the verb 'buy'.

> > I'm also yet to find any words - of whatever part of speech - that
> > end with -iy.
> >
>
> guy

Thanks - I think that may be the only one???

DC

--

[Django Cat]

Peter Moylan wrote:

> Django Cat wrote:
> > Harrison Hill wrote:
> >
> >> On Feb 21, 11:57 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> wrote:
> >>> This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:
> > > >
> >>> day - way - delay - essay - money
> > > >
> >>> (that last one won't work as talking about its plural would only
> >>> confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be countable
> >>> nouns)
> >> I seem to be an EFL learner because this is Greek to me. You want
> >> prefixes that create "vowel + y"-ending nouns that are synonyms of
> >> your list?
> >
> > No, I just need nouns that end with a vowel (probably one of the

> > letter vowels AEIOU rather than a vowel sound spelt without one of

> > them [1]) and then the letter y. This is so I can write a teaching
> > unit showing how this class of words work differently as plurals

> > from words that end consonant + y (day - days but hobby - hobbies).

>
> [...]
>
> > [1] Though I can't think of an example of a word with a non AEIOU
> > vowel sound +y
>
> It's not entirely clear to me what you mean by a "non AEIOU vowel
> sound".

Well, we teach kids that there are five vowels represented by those
letters. In fact, spoken English has many more than five vowels
/sounds/ . Most of these can be represented in spelling by one or a
combination of the five letters AEIOU, but this isn't always the case.
Consider the word 'Egypt' - two vowels, but with the second represented
by 'y'.

I'm trying to write a teaching unit that explains how words which end
with a vowel and then y behave differently from words which end
consonant + y when you add a suffix to make a simple past or plural
form.

Sometimes in grammar/syntax/whatever, what's important is the sound
rather than the letters involved. So while we might teach kids to write
'an' in front of a vowel, the vowel letters AEIOU don't always
represent vowel sounds, and sometimes other letters do. So we get

An FBI agent and
A utility belt.

It's conceivable that something similar happens with the vowel + y
ending thing. However, I'd probably need to find a word that ends -yy
to prove it, so we can probably let it go.

> Obviously you don't want a vowel that's not a vowel, so
> presumably you want something outside the group of the five most
> obvious vowels in English (whatever they are).
>
> Anyway, I'll offer "joey".

Excellent Aussie example.

DC

--

[Django Cat]

Snidely wrote:

> Peter Moylan brought next idea :
> > Django Cat wrote:
> > > Harrison Hill wrote:
> > >
> >>>On Feb 21, 11:57 am, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com> wrote:
> > > > > This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:
> > > > >
> > > > > day - way - delay - essay - money
> > > > >
> > > > > (that last one won't work as talking about its plural would
> > > > > only confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be
> > > > > countable nouns)
> > > > I seem to be an EFL learner because this is Greek to me. You
> > > > want prefixes that create "vowel + y"-ending nouns that are
> > > > synonyms of your list?
> > >
> > > No, I just need nouns that end with a vowel (probably one of the

> > > letter vowels AEIOU rather than a vowel sound spelt without one

> > > of them [1]) and then the letter y. This is so I can write a
> > > teaching unit showing how this class of words work differently as
> > > plurals from words that end consonent + y (day - days but hobby -
> > > hobbies).
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > [1] Though I can't think of an example of a word with a non AEIOU
> > > vowel sound +y
> >
> > It's not entirely clear to me what you mean by a "non AEIOU vowel
> > sound". Obviously you don't want a vowel that's not a vowel, so
> > presumably you want something outside the group of the five most
> > obvious vowels in English (whatever they are).
>
> I think he wants something where the vowel sound is written with the
> letters in the set {a,e,i,o,u}.

What would be interesting would be to find an example where it isn't -
but I don't think that's going to happen.

>There's a slew of possibilities
> that lead you to the slough of despond because of some grumpy use of
> would-be consonants.

Coolarama.

DC

--

[R H Draney]

Django Cat filted:

>
>Well, we teach kids that there are five vowels represented by those
>letters. In fact, spoken English has many more than five vowels
>/sounds/ . Most of these can be represented in spelling by one or a
>combination of the five letters AEIOU, but this isn't always the case.
>Consider the word 'Egypt' - two vowels, but with the second represented
>by 'y'.

What do you do when they ask you why the word "rhythm" has two syllables but no
vowels, or once they've learned about 'y', one at best....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[John Holmes]

Skitt wrote:
>
> I have not paid attention to who it is, but someone here is often
> forming wrong plurals of some words that in the singular end with y.

Is this a clue?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9udjcujYrMM

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

[Django Cat]

Dunno. I think a lot of teachers would just be impressed that the
student asked the question.

I suppose the answer is that the second syllable is a consonant
cluster; is there any reason a syllable has to include a vowel? I'm
sure there are other examples (though I bet some of them are originally
Polish...)

DC

--

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 08:21:05 GMT, "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com>
wrote:

According to the OED the earliest spelling of the singular was
"soliloquie".

1613 R. Cawdrey Table Alphabet. (ed. 3) , Soliloquie, priuate
talke.
1629 F. Quarles Argalus & Parthenia i. 48 Her pining thoughts;
and her projecting feares; Her soliloquies, and her secret teares.

and then:

1699 S. Garth Dispensary v. 53 He finds no respite from his
anxious Grief, Then seeks from this Soliloquy relief.


Similarly the earliest spelling of colloquy uses "ie":

1570 J. Foxe Actes & Monumentes (rev. ed.) I. f. 368v/1,
Cluniake, where was..appointed a secret meetyng or colloquie
betwene the Pope and Lewes the French kyng.

All the plural versions in the quotations are "colloquies".

[Jack Campin]

>> I think he wants something where the vowel sound is written
>> with the letters in the set {a,e,i,o,u}.
> What would be interesting would be to find an example where
> it isn't - but I don't think that's going to happen.

There might be an example using the Welsh -wy suffix but I can't
think of one.

[Django Cat]

Jack Campin wrote:

> >> I think he wants something where the vowel sound is written
> >> with the letters in the set {a,e,i,o,u}.
> > What would be interesting would be to find an example where
> > it isn't - but I don't think that's going to happen.
>
> There might be an example using the Welsh -wy suffix but I can't
> think of one.
>

Yes, I wondered about Welsh... Nwy for Gas, maybe... but it would have
to be usable in English...

DC


--

[Peter Moylan]

Django Cat wrote:

>> There's a slew of possibilities
>> that lead you to the slough of despond because of some grumpy use of
>> would-be consonants.
>
> Coolarama.

That's a town so small that it doesn't make it onto the maps. I don't
know whether that gives in more or less despond than Slough.

[Peter Moylan]

Someone from Ireland might well ask a similar question about "film".

[Peter Moylan]

Django Cat wrote:
> Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> Django Cat wrote:

>>> [1] Though I can't think of an example of a word with a non AEIOU
>>> vowel sound +y
>> It's not entirely clear to me what you mean by a "non AEIOU vowel
>> sound".
>
> Well, we teach kids that there are five vowels represented by those
> letters. In fact, spoken English has many more than five vowels
> /sounds/ .

I thought that most native English speakers were taught, at the
beginning of primary school, that each of AEIOU has two sounds; so
that's ten vowels just to begin with.

> Most of these can be represented in spelling by one or a
> combination of the five letters AEIOU, but this isn't always the case.
> Consider the word 'Egypt' - two vowels, but with the second represented
> by 'y'.

Ah. That's not the answer I expected. I was thinking of the vowels that
non-rhotic speakers think of as the "ar", "er", and "or" vowels. (I'm
not sure how rhotic speakers represent them.) So, for example, in the
word "story" the "o" doesn't have either of the two "o" sounds mentioned
above.

Of course that doesn't provide you with extra examples, because as soon
as you add a "y" on the end the "or" is pronounced as an "or" vowel
followed by the consonant "r", even for non-rhotic speakers.

[Peter Moylan]

Django Cat wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> On 2012-02-21 12:57:58 +0100, "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com>

>> said:
>>
>>> This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:
>>>
>>> day - way - delay - essay - money
>>>
>>> (that last one won't work as talking about its plural would only
>>> confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be countable
>>> nouns)
>>

>> boy - buoy - stay - quay - key
>
> Nice one - I can use 'key' for sure.

Once you have "key" you also have "monkey" and "donkey" -- although
perhaps those (and "money") are bad examples, because in terms of
pronunciation the "y" is preceded by a consonant, not a vowel.

(Most of the time, "ey" is the same vowel as "y".)

[James Hogg]

Peter Moylan wrote:
> R H Draney wrote:
>> Django Cat filted:
>>> Well, we teach kids that there are five vowels represented by those
>>> letters. In fact, spoken English has many more than five vowels
>>> /sounds/ . Most of these can be represented in spelling by one or a
>>> combination of the five letters AEIOU, but this isn't always the case.
>>> Consider the word 'Egypt' - two vowels, but with the second represented
>>> by 'y'.
>> What do you do when they ask you why the word "rhythm" has two syllables but no
>> vowels, or once they've learned about 'y', one at best....r
>
> Someone from Ireland might well ask a similar question about "film".

In one printed text of "Romeo and Juliet" that word appears as "philome"
(plenty of vowels).

Happy birthday, by the way.

--
James

[Nick Spalding]

Peter Moylan wrote, in
<jpedneyJRMc1S9vS...@westnet.com.au>
on Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:15:36 +1100:

>R H Draney wrote:
>> Django Cat filted:
>>> Well, we teach kids that there are five vowels represented by those
>>> letters. In fact, spoken English has many more than five vowels
>>> /sounds/ . Most of these can be represented in spelling by one or a
>>> combination of the five letters AEIOU, but this isn't always the case.
>>> Consider the word 'Egypt' - two vowels, but with the second represented
>>> by 'y'.
>>
>> What do you do when they ask you why the word "rhythm" has two syllables but no
>> vowels, or once they've learned about 'y', one at best....r
>
>Someone from Ireland might well ask a similar question about "film".

That follows naturally from the name Colm.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Django Cat]

Peter Moylan wrote:

> I thought that most native English speakers were taught, at the
> beginning of primary school, that each of AEIOU has two sounds; so
> that's ten vowels just to begin with.
>
> > Most of these can be represented in spelling by one or a
> > combination of the five letters AEIOU, but this isn't always the
> > case. Consider the word 'Egypt' - two vowels, but with the second
> > represented by 'y'.
>
> Ah. That's not the answer I expected. I was thinking of the vowels
> that non-rhotic speakers think of as the "ar", "er", and "or" vowels.
> (I'm not sure how rhotic speakers represent them.) So, for example,
> in the word "story" the "o" doesn't have either of the two "o" sounds
> mentioned above.

That sort of answers my conundrum... well for non-rhotic speakers
anyway ... because it's stories not *storys.

DC

--

[Django Cat]

Peter Moylan wrote:

> Django Cat wrote:
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >
> >> On 2012-02-21 12:57:58 +0100, "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com>
> >> said:
> > >
> >>> This time I need simple nouns ending in a vowel + y:
> > > >
> >>> day - way - delay - essay - money
> > > >
> >>> (that last one won't work as talking about its plural would only
> >>> confuse EFL learners... in fact, these all have to be countable
> >>> nouns)
> > >
> >> boy - buoy - stay - quay - key
> >
> > Nice one - I can use 'key' for sure.
>
> Once you have "key" you also have "monkey" and "donkey" -- although
> perhaps those (and "money") are bad examples, because in terms of
> pronunciation the "y" is preceded by a consonant, not a vowel.
>
> (Most of the time, "ey" is the same vowel as "y".)

Hmm... another piece of evidence that suggests what changes the
spelling is the presence of one of the AEIOU letters, not the
pronunciation.

DC

--

[Peter Moylan]

Et tu, James? So far I've heard from a fellow choir member (Marie) and a
former drinking buddy (Kate). Bookface has something to answer for.

Still, my presence in aue at this time of the morning can be blamed on
the fact that two of my children (plus one spouse) came to dinner this
evening, as a result of which my partner decided to sleep at her own
home. And the packet of chips is half gone, but there's still one
unopened bottle of wine. Life is, as they say, a piece of shiftlessness.

[Peter Moylan]

Agus -- bugger, at this time of night I can't think of an example. But
it runs right through the language.

[Peter Moylan]

To sort out the conundrum you have to make a distinction between vowel
_sounds_ and vowel _letters_.

For a pure "ey" or "y" ending, the plural will almost always (if I'm not
too far confused) end with "ies". Except, of course, for one-syllable
words like "keys". Oh, damn, and now I'm unsure about the "monkeys"
category.

For "ay" or "oy" or "uy" endings, the vowel lies outside the normal
AEIOU category, so the plural ending is "s".

[Jerry Friedman]

On Feb 24, 9:43 am, Peter Moylan <inva...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid>
wrote:

I'd say that if the word ends in a consonant followed by a "y", the
plural will end in "ies". For "ay", "ey", and "oy", the plural just
adds "s", except for the odd word "monies".

For "uy", we have "guy" and the colloquial "buy", whose plurals end in
"s", and "soliloquy" and "colloquy", whose plurals end in "ies". I
can't think of any other examples, so these can be remembered by the
pronunciation.

Finally, personal names ending in "y" form plurals by adding "s": the
Raffertys, the Kaminskys, the Blys, two Billys in the class, etc.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Django Cat]

Peter Moylan wrote:

> Django Cat wrote:
> > Peter Moylan wrote:
> >
> >> I thought that most native English speakers were taught, at the
> >> beginning of primary school, that each of AEIOU has two sounds; so
> >> that's ten vowels just to begin with.
> > >
> >>> Most of these can be represented in spelling by one or a
> >>> combination of the five letters AEIOU, but this isn't always the
> >>> case. Consider the word 'Egypt' - two vowels, but with the second
> >>> represented by 'y'.
> >> Ah. That's not the answer I expected. I was thinking of the vowels
> >> that non-rhotic speakers think of as the "ar", "er", and "or"
> vowels. >> (I'm not sure how rhotic speakers represent them.) So,
> for example, >> in the word "story" the "o" doesn't have either of
> the two "o" sounds >> mentioned above.
> >
> > That sort of answers my conundrum... well for non-rhotic speakers
> > anyway ... because it's stories not *storys.
>
> To sort out the conundrum you have to make a distinction between vowel

> _sounds_ and vowel letters.

>
> For a pure "ey" or "y" ending, the plural will almost always (if I'm
> not too far confused) end with "ies". Except, of course, for
> one-syllable words like "keys". Oh, damn, and now I'm unsure about
> the "monkeys" category.

Sorry, I don't think you're right there...

>
> For "ay" or "oy" or "uy" endings, the vowel lies outside the normal
> AEIOU category, so the plural ending is "s".

But all of those are /spelt/ AEIO or U, + y; so the spelling is based
on previous letters in the word, not on the sound - it's not like the
an FBI agent/a utility belt thing.

DC
--

[Django Cat]

Peter Moylan wrote:

> Django Cat wrote:
> > Peter Moylan wrote:
> >
> >> I thought that most native English speakers were taught, at the
> >> beginning of primary school, that each of AEIOU has two sounds; so
> >> that's ten vowels just to begin with.
> > >
> >>> Most of these can be represented in spelling by one or a
> >>> combination of the five letters AEIOU, but this isn't always the
> >>> case. Consider the word 'Egypt' - two vowels, but with the second
> >>> represented by 'y'.
> >> Ah. That's not the answer I expected. I was thinking of the vowels
> >> that non-rhotic speakers think of as the "ar", "er", and "or"
> vowels. >> (I'm not sure how rhotic speakers represent them.) So,
> for example, >> in the word "story" the "o" doesn't have either of
> the two "o" sounds >> mentioned above.
> >
> > That sort of answers my conundrum... well for non-rhotic speakers
> > anyway ... because it's stories not *storys.
>
> To sort out the conundrum you have to make a distinction between vowel

> _sounds_ and vowel letters.

>
> For a pure "ey" or "y" ending, the plural will almost always (if I'm
> not too far confused) end with "ies". Except, of course, for
> one-syllable words like "keys". Oh, damn, and now I'm unsure about
> the "monkeys" category.
>
> For "ay" or "oy" or "uy" endings, the vowel lies outside the normal
> AEIOU category, so the plural ending is "s".

PS lets not forget those cheeky cockneys up chimneys in jerseys talking
baloney.

DC
--

[Django Cat]

Peter Moylan wrote:

> Django Cat wrote:
> > Peter Moylan wrote:
> >
> >> I thought that most native English speakers were taught, at the
> >> beginning of primary school, that each of AEIOU has two sounds; so
> >> that's ten vowels just to begin with.
> > >
> >>> Most of these can be represented in spelling by one or a
> >>> combination of the five letters AEIOU, but this isn't always the
> >>> case. Consider the word 'Egypt' - two vowels, but with the second
> >>> represented by 'y'.
> >> Ah. That's not the answer I expected. I was thinking of the vowels
> >> that non-rhotic speakers think of as the "ar", "er", and "or"
> vowels. >> (I'm not sure how rhotic speakers represent them.) So,
> for example, >> in the word "story" the "o" doesn't have either of
> the two "o" sounds >> mentioned above.
> >
> > That sort of answers my conundrum... well for non-rhotic speakers
> > anyway ... because it's stories not *storys.
>
> To sort out the conundrum you have to make a distinction between vowel

> _sounds_ and vowel letters.

>
> For a pure "ey" or "y" ending, the plural will almost always (if I'm
> not too far confused) end with "ies". Except, of course, for
> one-syllable words like "keys". Oh, damn, and now I'm unsure about
> the "monkeys" category.
>
> For "ay" or "oy" or "uy" endings, the vowel lies outside the normal
> AEIOU category, so the plural ending is "s".

PPS Happy Birthday if it still is!

DC

--

[R H Draney]

Jerry Friedman filted:

>
>Finally, personal names ending in "y" form plurals by adding "s": the
>Raffertys, the Kaminskys, the Blys, two Billys in the class, etc.

One of my ancestors was named "Esther Wemys"...I wonder what the sign outside
her parent's house said....r

[Leslie Danks]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:54:22 -0800, R H Draney wrote:

> Jerry Friedman filted:
>>
>>Finally, personal names ending in "y" form plurals by adding "s": the
>>Raffertys, the Kaminskys, the Blys, two Billys in the class, etc.
>
> One of my ancestors was named "Esther Wemys"...I wonder what the sign
> outside her parent's house said....r

Any connection with "Wemyss Bay" (pronounced "weemz")?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wemyss_Bay>

--
Les
(BrE)

[Jerry Friedman]

On Feb 24, 1:54 pm, R H Draney <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Jerry Friedman filted:
> >Finally, personal names ending in "y" form plurals by adding "s": the
> >Raffertys, the Kaminskys, the Blys, two Billys in the class, etc.
>
> One of my ancestors was named "Esther Wemys"...I wonder what the sign outside
> her parent's house said....r

"The Wemyses", of course, since that was in the Golden Age before the
present decay of standards.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Django Cat]

Jerry Friedman wrote:

> Finally, personal names ending in "y" form plurals by adding "s": the
> Raffertys, the Kaminskys, the Blys, two Billys in the class, etc.

Good point.

DC

--

[Mike Lyle]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 18:18:05 GMT, "Django Cat" <nota...@address.com>
wrote:

>Peter Moylan wrote:
[...]

>
>PPS Happy Birthday if it still is!

Me too, but if it isn't, allow me to be the first to congratiulate you
on reaching the next one.

Isn't "er" spelt "uh" in Rhoticia?

--
Mike.

[Robert Bannister]

But two billies of tea.


--
Robert Bannister

[Skitt]

Peter Moylan wrote:

> James Hogg wrote:

>> Happy birthday, by the way.
>
> Et tu, James? So far I've heard from a fellow choir member (Marie) and a
> former drinking buddy (Kate). Bookface has something to answer for.

Ah, yes -- Happy Birthday, Peter.
--
Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt

[R H Draney]

Robert Bannister filted:

There were no Teddys in my high school, but there were several Teddies....r