Eulipions?

[Marc]

Rahsaan Roland Kirk has a song called "Theme for the Eulipions".
A google search turns up lots of examples in the context of theaters. But I
can't find a definition.
can anyone help me with the meaning of "Eulipions"?

[Skitt]

"Marc" <marc...@obongo.com> wrote in message
news:9il4id$u0r$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...

I believe it is a word coined by the poet Betty Neals. I quote from
http://www.wcbe.org/SBYTES/0012-13rahsaanrolandkirk.htm :
===============
But, ultimately, Kirk’s artistry and expression resolved everything through
his music. Poet Betty Neals, who immortalized the spirit of Rahsaan Roland
Kirk in her poem Theme For The Eulipions, recited the introduction to Kirk’s
composition of the same name on his 1975 Warner Brothers recording The
Return Of The 5,000 Lb. Man. Kirk inspired her to pen Eulipions after she
first encountered during an airport layover playing his harmonica softly
like the music was a "...Duty-Free Gift for the traveller." She christened
him as a "Journey Agent, a Eulipion. Says his friends, the poets, the
artists; the musicians are journey agents too. Listen! Listen to his tune."
===============
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel of "Fawlty Towers" (he's from Barcelona).

[Marc]

"Skitt" <sk...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9il5pe$jlm10$1...@ID-61580.news.dfncis.de...

>
>
> I believe it is a word coined by the poet Betty Neals. I quote from
> http://www.wcbe.org/SBYTES/0012-13rahsaanrolandkirk.htm :

I don't think so. A Google search picks up several articles referring to
"Eulipion Societies" and "Eulipion Cultural Center".

[Skitt]

"Marc" <marc...@obongo.com> wrote in message

news:9il9bo$12l9$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...

Yes, but did you check what those references really said? There seems to be
a black society in Denver, named "Eulipions", operating a cultural center.
The center appears to have been founded around 1996; Betty Neals used the
word in 1975. I take back the assertion that she coined it -- she took it
from Kirk's composition of the same name, so maybe HE coined it.

[felix]

> She christened
> him as a "Journey Agent, a Eulipion. Says his friends, the poets, the
> artists; the musicians are journey agents too. Listen! Listen to his tune."

Like that idea...there should definitely be more Eulipions at the
airports I travel through...sure ain't none at the information
desk....

felix

[Zeberdee]

Difficult to reconcile I know but :

In Aristophanes' play Birds, there are two characters Peisetairos and
Euelpides who leave Athens to establish a "trouble-free" colony in the sky
between heaven and earth, but like all utopias the become what they once
hated. They persuade the birds to surrender their freedom in the name of
increasing their power and riches, and so what started out as a quest for a
peacefully independent life for two Athenians ends up with an extension of
their empire, a triumph which is to be celebrated by eating a couple of
birds, the very creatures to whom they came at the start for advice about
how to live.

My guess is that Eulipions are people like Euelipides (but shouldn't that
be -iAns rather then -iOns or even Eulipidians :discuss). It might tie in
with journeyman, certainly airports, duty free is tenuous at best as I'm not
sure of Greek trade laws at the time and apart from it being a play I don't
know it theatre connection.

But aside from all that it fits perfectly, with a little hammering.

--
The best lack all conviction,
while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.
-- W.B. Yeats

"Marc" <marc...@obongo.com> wrote in message

news:9il4id$u0r$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...

[urbang...@hotmail.com]

I believe it describes a visceral sensation, usually related to music which stirs the soul.

[Guy Barry]

urbangorillaz wrote in message
news:edb0ac9f-535d-45ea...@googlegroups.com...

Well that's very useful, replying to an 11-year-old post.

How did you manage it? Google Groups doesn't normally let me reply to posts
that are more than a couple of months old.

--
Guy Barry

[Nick Spalding]

Guy Barry wrote, in <B%7rs.628340$Ol2.1...@fx25.am4>
on Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:16:25 -0000:

Using the Advanced Search and getting the Marc message by Message-Id it
allows me to create a reply. I didn't actually send it. Can you get
that far?
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

[Iain Archer]

Nick Spalding wrote on Wed, 21 Nov 2012

If you ever make it back to September 1999, there are some Argentinian
tango classes starting at the Eulipions Ballroom, 1770 Sherman Street,
Denver.
--
Iain Archer

[Mike L]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:00:50 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>In message <Iip41KJy...@virginmedia.com>
> Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
(In a thread called "Eulipions".)
[...]

>
>> If you ever make it back to September 1999, there are some Argentinian
>> tango classes starting at the Eulipions Ballroom, 1770 Sherman Street,
>> Denver.
>

>Hmm. I'm pretty sure I've been in the Sherman St Events Center a few
>times, but I've never seen any tangos. Or any Argentinians.

I still prefer "Argentine": "Argentinian" feels contrived.

--
Mike.

[Steve Hayes]

To me "Argentine" can only be used by the diminishing number of people who use
RP.




--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[Eric Walker]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:08:49 +0000, Mike L wrote:

[...]

> I still prefer "Argentine": "Argentinian" feels contrived.

Once upon a time, "Argentine" was the only accepted form (I saw it on a
test for would-be proofreaders for a major publishing house). Nowadays,
the English-language version of the official web site of the government
of Argentina uses both forms indiscriminately. Me, I would stick to
"Argentine" for a while yet, as a lot of people will still think using
"Argentinian" a marker of ignorance.

"Argentine" is one of those few--I think--national adjective forms that
can be a place name, as in "The Argentine", analogous to "The
Dominican". I'm sure there are others like that, but I suspect not many.


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 04:20:46 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com>
wrote:

>"Argentine" is one of those few--I think--national adjective forms that
>can be a place name, as in "The Argentine", analogous to "The
>Dominican". I'm sure there are others like that, but I suspect not many.

"The Ukraine", "The Transvaal" and "The Transkei".

[Guy Barry]

"Mike L" wrote in message
news:j1rqa8t87ro5f3v78...@4ax.com...

The trouble with "Argentine" is that it's still occasionally used as the
name of the country (as "the Argentine").

There wasn't much debate about the correct term for the inhabitants in this
country until the Falklands War. Then, of course, they became "Argies".

I think I prefer "Argentinians" myself.

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

"Eric Walker" wrote in message news:k8k96s$hs8$1...@dont-email.me...

> "Argentine" is one of those few--I think--national adjective forms that
> can be a place name, as in "The Argentine", analogous to "The
> Dominican". I'm sure there are others like that, but I suspect not many.

Isn't it "the Dominican Republic"?

--
Guy Barry

[Guy Barry]

"Steve Hayes" wrote in message
news:61bra852h7fovu322...@4ax.com...

> On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 04:20:46 +0000 (UTC), Eric Walker <em...@owlcroft.com>
> wrote:

> >"Argentine" is one of those few--I think--national adjective forms that
> >can be a place name, as in "The Argentine", analogous to "The
> >Dominican". I'm sure there are others like that, but I suspect not many.

> "The Ukraine", "The Transvaal" and "The Transkei".

As recently mentioned, "The Ukraine" is now known as "Ukraine". In any case
"Ukraine" isn't an adjective - we never called the country "the Ukrainian".
Are "Transvaal" and "Transkei" adjectives?

--
Guy Barry

[R H Draney]

Guy Barry filted:

Adverbials, I think....r


--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

[Eric Walker]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 07:46:38 +0000, Guy Barry wrote:

[...]

> Isn't it "the Dominican Republic"?

In full, yes, definitely. But there remains a lively informal form, "the
Dominican", which can often, for example, be heard in baseball coverage
(so-and-so is from the Dominican, or played winter ball in the Dominican,
&c &c). Similarly, Argentina is Argentina, but is still often referred
to as "the Argentine".

I am unsure whether Mr Hayes's suggestions fit the same pattern; "the
Ukraine", especially, seems muddied water these days.


--
Cordially,
Eric Walker

[Iain Archer]

Lewis wrote on Thu, 22 Nov 2012
>In message <rv7ra89v6lko3pbj4...@4ax.com>

> Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:08:49 +0000, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:00:50 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
>>><g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <Iip41KJy...@virginmedia.com>
>>>> Iain Archer <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>(In a thread called "Eulipions".)
>>>[...]
>>>>
>>>>> If you ever make it back to September 1999, there are some Argentinian
>>>>> tango classes starting at the Eulipions Ballroom, 1770 Sherman Street,
>>>>> Denver.
>>>>
>>>>Hmm. I'm pretty sure I've been in the Sherman St Events Center a few
>>>>times, but I've never seen any tangos. Or any Argentinians.
>>>
>>>I still prefer "Argentine": "Argentinian" feels contrived.
>
>>To me "Argentine" can only be used by the diminishing number of people
>>who use RP.
>

>For me, a person is Argentinian, a Tango is Argentine (or not).
>
OK, I was wrong. It was Argentine all the time. I am rueful.
<http://groups.google.com/group/ba.dance/browse_thread/thread/f046c3a3754
3f2e5/20d2ee7463946db0>
--
Iain Archer

[Cheryl]

Officially, probably. When used by people planning a winter holiday it's
"The Dominican" as in, "We decided to go to The Dominican this year
instead of Cuba."

--
Cheryl

[Steve Hayes]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 07:48:47 -0000, "Guy Barry" <guy....@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:

I'm not sure. Is Cicalpine Gail an adjective? The Transkei used to be called
"The Transkeian Territories", meaning the territories on the other side of the
Kei.

Like the tourists wandering around in Northern Namibia in the 19th century,
and they pointed to a river and asked a local what it was, and the locak
replied "Kunene", which means "Left Bank". And ever since then the river has
appeared labelled in maps as "Kunene".

[Mike L]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 07:34:31 -0000, "Guy Barry"
<guy....@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>
>
>"Mike L" wrote in message
>news:j1rqa8t87ro5f3v78...@4ax.com...
>
>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:00:50 +0000 (UTC), Lewis
>> <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>> >Hmm. I'm pretty sure I've been in the Sherman St Events Center a few
>> >times, but I've never seen any tangos. Or any Argentinians.
>
>> I still prefer "Argentine": "Argentinian" feels contrived.
>
>The trouble with "Argentine" is that it's still occasionally used as the
>name of the country (as "the Argentine").

I think that's what I was taught, back in the Pre-Cambrian, but I'd
only use it for fun now. I'm told, however, that Anglo-Argentines do
still use the term.

>
>There wasn't much debate about the correct term for the inhabitants in this
>country until the Falklands War. Then, of course, they became "Argies".

Poor misled sods. There was a quip going round pretending that _The
Sun_ had set up a competition, "Kill an Argie and win a Mini Metro".

>
>I think I prefer "Argentinians" myself.

--

Mike.

[gggpa...@gmail.com]

This thread meanders into a discussion about the word "Argentine." Oh well. Rahsaan's tune is wonderful. I had never made the connection between the song and the local (Denver) African-American theater!

The Eulipions Theater had had a couple of homes in Denver, but no more. I saw the first of August Wilson's ten-play series ("Ma Rainey's Black Bottom") at its Five Points location. It moved to a much larger location (too large) before closing. Now it's a foundation.

I love Rahsaan Roland Kirk, the most underrated musician in jazz, and saw him perform many times.

[quia...@yahoo.com]

Sounds like particles of good cholesterol.

--
John

[Snidely]

on 9/16/2017, gggpa...@gmail.com supposed :

Ah, a thread revival where the poster clearly has a sense of there
being a thread with a variety of previous responses!

(I don't remember this thread, but that is probably because 2001 was
before I started following this group.)

/dps

--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15

[Gregg Painter]

[Gregg Painter]

To add another comment, because this song was going through my head when I woke up and I just saw the RRK film a few days ago (The Case of the Three Sided Film, 2014, viewable for free at Tubi)
here is the story of the original poet, Betty Rhea:

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/name/betty-rhea-obituary?id=31980678

Keep the Dream Alive!

Gregg, Denver, MLK Day

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Mon, 17 Jan 2022 08:47:56 -0800 (PST)
Gregg Painter <wordsmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, 17 September 2017 at 14:28:41 UTC-6, Snidely wrote:
> > on 9/16/2017, gggpa...@gmail.com supposed :
> > > On Thursday, July 12, 2001 at 3:29:16 PM UTC-6, Marc wrote:
> > >> Rahsaan Roland Kirk has a song called "Theme for the Eulipions".

Ah GG users.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Are you ever going to get it through your thick skull that gmail and
GG are two completely different things?

You didn't even quote what you responded to, so it looks like
it was you who trawled 21 or five years into the past.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

What about GG users?

bill

[Peter T. Daniels]

It's an old trope. Some usenet snobs think GG is infra dig --
maybe because it's more reliable than all the fancy ones
they use -- and a while back we had a rash of "drive-by postings"
from gmail users who apparently were directed by a faulty
search engine to the first message in a thread, some of them
40 or 50 years old. They had no idea they were posting to a
Google Group rather than responding to a new message
somewhere, so they never appeared in order to read the abuse
that was heaped on them by the usual suspects.

A while ago, someone did a check and found that GG was the
platform used by the most AUE participants --about 25%.

[Sam Plusnet]

No.
"Gregg Painter" responded to a post from five years ago.
Kerr-Mudd responded to his post - and the date of that post is quite
clear in a suitable Usenet client.

Evidently Gregg Painter didn't understand the age of the post he replied
to, prompted no doubt by the same limitations in G. Groups which caused
you to fail to understand Kerr-Mudd's post.

--
Sam Plusnet

[bil...@shaw.ca]

If you're saying that a limitation of Google Groups is that the date of a post
is unclear, that is not the case. I use GG for my own reasons, and the date
on each post I read and/or reply to is perfectly clear, both when I first read it
and when I set up a reply.

bill

[Sam Plusnet]

You are well used to G. Groups.

It does seem that quite a few people stumble across GG and respond to a
post without realising they are interacting with an historical artefact.
The date information may be there, but there is a steady flow of people
who make that mistake.

Why do I say these are responding via G. Groups?

Because if someone sets up a Usenet client from scratch, they will not
see these ancient posts - unless they make a special effort to dig them
out, and then they will know exactly what they are dealing with.


--
Sam Plusnet

[bil...@shaw.ca]

Yes, I've noticed that phenomenon. I think the stumblers in question are familiar
with neither Usenet nor Google Groups. They don't notice the dates and they
have no idea where those posts come from, where their replies to those posts
are going, or how to access any replies to their replies.

bill

[Tony Cooper]

Having used only Forte Agent, I don't know how others access Usenet.
When a newsgroup is added to Agent, the user can download extant
posts, but there is a limitation of number. One could, for example,
download and read 1,000 posts. Why, I don't know, but they could.

1,000 posts would not take you very far back in time in an active
newsgroup. Certainly not five years of posts.

When I open aue, I download the unread messages that have been posted
in the last seven days. That means, maybe, 100 in the morning. The
UK posters have been up and at it by the time I log in.

The only way for me to find a years-old post is use Google to search
for something specific. I just searched for "bob cunningham
alt.usage.english" and found an 18 year-old thread.

https://alt.usage.english.narkive.com/nUdJDHkA/mr-cunningham-s-subject-lines#post2

I can't help but notice that I am the only one with posts in that
thread that is still active here.




--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Snidely]

bil...@shaw.ca noted that:

And Gregg's second post seems to indicate that he is more aware of what
he's responding to than KMJ or Sam give him credit for. (Given the
comment I made 5 years ago, I'm smiling a bit.)

He is indeed a GG user (in these 2 posts, at least) which you can tell
by the headers. And apparently appreciates Betty Rhea.

/dps

--
Yes, I have had a cucumber soda. Why do you ask?

[Madhu]

At least two other posters didn't respond to the new messages but went
back to old thread and followed up on the years-old messages.

if it was from 2017 e-s should have it according to some claims of
retention i've heard but it didn't fetch it

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

.. doncha just love 'em?

> What about GG users?

Bunch of flyby posters, in general. PCE.

Present Company Excepted.

[Quinn C]

* bil...@shaw.ca:

If you care to look, I assume. The fact that an old posting is not
available to read in the first place in regular Usenet systems is much
better at preventing answers to it. It's the difference between a car
that shows you the speed, so you should know when you're going too fast
and one that limits the speed mechanically, regardless of what you do.

There are other ways of achieving that goal, if it was one for Google.
Some forum systems I've used display a warning when you try to answer to
an old post: "This post is more than x years old!"

--
The lack of any sense of play between them worried Miles. You
had to have a keen sense of humor to do sex and stay sane.
-- L. McMaster Bujold, Memory

[Peter T. Daniels]

Who is "Gregg Painter"? Perhaps some denizen of AEU?

My point stands. What does GG have to do with violations of protocol?

Is it simply that whatever systems the other 75% of you use prevent
you from looking more than a few months or maybe a few years back?

[Peter T. Daniels]

It is obvious that that is NOT what they did, since they respond not to the
newest but to the oldest post in a thread, and they never return to check
out responses.

As is quite clear and has been pointed out many times, the problem
was caused by a bug in gmail that had some sort of search device
that was set to check the starts of threads, with no indication that
that was what was happening.

This problem has not been seen in months, if not longer, and did
not happen here, since "Gregg Painter" responded to a five-year-
old post from Snidely, who seems to have responded to a post
from "Gregg Painter" (or, someone whose address happened to
begin gggpa...).

> and respond to a
> post without realising they are interacting with an historical artefact.
> The date information may be there, but there is a steady flow of people
> who make that mistake.

Not for months.

> Why do I say these are responding via G. Groups?
>
> Because if someone sets up a Usenet client from scratch, they will not
> see these ancient posts - unless they make a special effort to dig them
> out, and then they will know exactly what they are dealing with.

That makes no sense. When I was forced to switch from Mac to PC
(by an employer), I asked the tech people at Verizon, my ISP, how to
access newsgroups (I had had Mozilla) and several had never heard
of "newsgroups," and eventually they found someone who thought
maybe I meant "Google groups." It was the ONLY option those presumably
knowledgeable techies knew about in 2006 or so.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 8:47:03 AM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> * bil...@shaw.ca:
> > On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 3:34:43 PM UTC-8, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> >> Evidently Gregg Painter didn't understand the age of the post he replied
> >> to, prompted no doubt by the same limitations in G. Groups which caused
> >> you to fail to understand Kerr-Mudd's post.
> > If you're saying that a limitation of Google Groups is that the date of a post
> > is unclear, that is not the case. I use GG for my own reasons, and the date
> > on each post I read and/or reply to is perfectly clear, both when I first read it
> > and when I set up a reply.
>
> If you care to look, I assume. The fact that an old posting is not
> available to read in the first place in regular Usenet systems is much
> better at preventing answers to it. It's the difference between a car
> that shows you the speed, so you should know when you're going too fast
> and one that limits the speed mechanically, regardless of what you do.

Are you saying you prefer the latter?

It's a good thing you're not involved in the development of self-driving cars.

(Soon there will be a retronym for what we drive now.)

> There are other ways of achieving that goal, if it was one for Google.
> Some forum systems I've used display a warning when you try to answer to
> an old post: "This post is more than x years old!"

Museum labels used to include a lot of information that you could
choose to read or not. Nowadays you're lucky to find a label identifying
the object. Which do you prefer?

This was brought home to me in 1992. One day I visited the Ashmolean
-- type I. The next day I visited the Fitzwilliam -- Type II. Sure enough,
I came across a case displaying the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, with
not a hint of why it was important.

(As of 2018, the Ashmolean seemed to have switched to Type II, but
I didn't have time to explore the galleries.)

I saw the same thing during my time at the Oriental Institute (Chicago),
when the Museum galleries were beginning to be reinstalled ca. 1982.

[Tony Cooper]

It's well-known, and acknowledged, that many readers of this newsgroup
open posts and read them without noticing the date the message was
posted.

Posters who use newsreaders that show only recent posts don't respond
to many-years-old posts because they don't see them.

A source that shows those many-years-old posts presents the
opportunity for the unobservant of date reader to respond.

Personally, I would pay more attention to the poster name than to the
date if I could see those many-years-old posts. I would look closely
at a post from an unrecognizable name, so I wouldn't be sucked into
responding.

I'm not in agreement that these years-old posts are necessarily a
significent problem. If the subject is also of current interest, then
why not follow up? The fact that the follow-up will not be seen by
the OP can be disregarded. It can be of interest to current readers.

It's rather interesting that all of the follow-ups have been about
Google Gropers vs Real Newsreaders. Nothing more about Eulipions.

I guess, since it's a term Rahssan Kirk invented and used for one
composition, that nothing more that can be added.

[CDB]

On 1/18/2022 12:59 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

[the iniquities of GooGoo]

> That makes no sense. When I was forced to switch from Mac to PC (by
> an employer), I asked the tech people at Verizon, my ISP, how to
> access newsgroups (I had had Mozilla) and several had never heard of
> "newsgroups," and eventually they found someone who thought maybe I
> meant "Google groups." It was the ONLY option those presumably
> knowledgeable techies knew about in 2006 or so.

"Presumably knowlegdeable techies". <emoji with tears running down cheeks>

[CDB]

On 1/18/2022 1:12 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Quinn C wrote:
>> * bil...@shaw.ca:

>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:

>>>> Evidently Gregg Painter didn't understand the age of the post
>>>> he replied to, prompted no doubt by the same limitations in G.
>>>> Groups which caused you to fail to understand Kerr-Mudd's
>>>> post.
>>> If you're saying that a limitation of Google Groups is that the
>>> date of a post is unclear, that is not the case. I use GG for my
>>> own reasons, and the date on each post I read and/or reply to is
>>> perfectly clear, both when I first read it and when I set up a
>>> reply.
>>
>> If you care to look, I assume. The fact that an old posting is not
>> available to read in the first place in regular Usenet systems is
>> much better at preventing answers to it. It's the difference
>> between a car that shows you the speed, so you should know when
>> you're going too fast and one that limits the speed mechanically,
>> regardless of what you do.
>
> Are you saying you prefer the latter?
>
> It's a good thing you're not involved in the development of
> self-driving cars.
>
> (Soon there will be a retronym for what we drive now.)

[Come away with me, Lucille, In my merry Stoogemobile]

[charles]

In article <abaa586c-0627-468f...@googlegroups.com>, Peter

They probably wanted you to buy the guide.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

Heh! Skitt slaw strikes agane!

[Sam Plusnet]

On 18-Jan-22 17:59, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 8:23:58 PM UTC-5, Sam Plusnet wrote:

>> Because if someone sets up a Usenet client from scratch, they will not
>> see these ancient posts - unless they make a special effort to dig them
>> out, and then they will know exactly what they are dealing with.
>
> That makes no sense.

You make that claim, and then go on to relate your experience which does
_not_ in any way address what I said. A non sequitur.

> When I was forced to switch from Mac to PC
> (by an employer), I asked the tech people at Verizon, my ISP, how to
> access newsgroups (I had had Mozilla) and several had never heard
> of "newsgroups," and eventually they found someone who thought
> maybe I meant "Google groups." It was the ONLY option those presumably
> knowledgeable techies knew about in 2006 or so.

You talked to people who didn't know about Usenet. Fine.
It says nothing about people who _do_ know about Usenet, and access a
Usenet server via a Usenet client.


--
Sam Plusnet

[Ken Blake]

Not just in this newsgroup. I seldom look at the date of a post in any
newsgroup.

[Quinn C]

* CDB:

Weren't they more likely call-center agents with a rush overview
instruction?

Even my small ISP switched to call-center a few years ago. Before that,
they were doing their name (Teksavvy) justice because you used to get an
actually knowledgeable person on with almost no wait time, one reason
why I stayed with them. Now I continue to support them - even though
they're not particularly cheap any more - mainly because of their
politics. They're actively fighting for more competition in the Canadian
market, and against making ISPs agents of law enforcement.

--
There is a whole cottage industry devoted to people who are
upset by the idea of others being outraged.
-- Washington Post 2019-09-18

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 8:23:58 PM UTC-5, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> > It does seem that quite a few people stumble across GG
>
> It is obvious that that is NOT what they did, since they respond not to the
> newest but to the oldest post in a thread,

So? If they mistake GG for just another web forum, many of those don't
allow answering to others than the root post of a thread.

> and they never return to check out responses.

Is that supposed to prove anything at all?

> As is quite clear and has been pointed out many times,

by a single contributor

> the problem
> was caused by a bug in gmail

This pet theory of yours has never been confirmed by any person with a
Gmail account, which must be many of the readers here.

That those people use Gmail to post doesn't prove anything. First,
that's the standard email account that people have. More importantly,
you need to log into GG to post, and that'll only happen casually if you
already happen to be logged in because you're using a Google account in
your browser, and that means, in 99% of cases, also Gmail.

What has been confirmed is that the habit of these drive-by posters of
posting with no quotes is likely the result of the default setting of GG
on mobile.

--
For spirits when they please
Can either sex assume, or both; so soft
And uncompounded is their essence pure,
-- Milton, Paradise Lost

[Peter Moylan]

I once called my phone company to report a problem with the news server.
Most of the tech support people thought I meant a news feed in my web
browser. Finally, I got on to someone who knew what I meant.

He told me that their news server was being phased out because there was
nobody left who knew how to configure it.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:20:06 PM UTC-5, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 18-Jan-22 17:59, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 8:23:58 PM UTC-5, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> >> Because if someone sets up a Usenet client from scratch, they will not
> >> see these ancient posts - unless they make a special effort to dig them
> >> out, and then they will know exactly what they are dealing with.
> > That makes no sense.
>
> You make that claim, and then go on to relate your experience which does
> _not_ in any way address what I said. A non sequitur.

Then I guess I don't know what you mean by "set up from scratch."
I had none, and I followed the instructions and then I had one, and
if I wanted to I could see the "ancient posts.".

> > When I was forced to switch from Mac to PC
> > (by an employer), I asked the tech people at Verizon, my ISP, how to
> > access newsgroups (I had had Mozilla) and several had never heard
> > of "newsgroups," and eventually they found someone who thought
> > maybe I meant "Google groups." It was the ONLY option those presumably
> > knowledgeable techies knew about in 2006 or so.
>
> You talked to people who didn't know about Usenet. Fine.
> It says nothing about people who _do_ know about Usenet, and access a
> Usenet server via a Usenet client.

No one here has _ever_ explained why that's better, and there are
plenty of accounts here about their failures.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 5:49:25 PM UTC-5, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 8:23:58 PM UTC-5, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> > > It does seem that quite a few people stumble across GG
> >
> > It is obvious that that is NOT what they did, since they respond not to the
> > newest but to the oldest post in a thread,
> So? If they mistake GG for just another web forum, many of those don't
> allow answering to others than the root post of a thread.
> > and they never return to check out responses.
> Is that supposed to prove anything at all?
> > As is quite clear and has been pointed out many times,
> by a single contributor
> > the problem
> > was caused by a bug in gmail
> This pet theory of yours has never been confirmed by any person with a
> Gmail account, which must be many of the readers here.
>
> That those people use Gmail to post doesn't prove anything. First,
> that's the standard email account that people have. More importantly,
> you need to log into GG to post, and that'll only happen casually if you
> already happen to be logged in because you're using a Google account in
> your browser, and that means, in 99% of cases, also Gmail.
>
> What has been confirmed is that the habit of these drive-by posters of
> posting with no quotes is likely the result of the default setting of GG
> on mobile.

I don't know what that means, but how do you account for the fact
that drive-by postings no longer occur, and haven't for who-knows-
how-long? For the second time today, the dog that didn't bark,

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 17:49:14 -0500, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* CDB:
>
>> On 1/18/2022 12:59 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>> [the iniquities of GooGoo]
>>
>>> That makes no sense. When I was forced to switch from Mac to PC (by
>>> an employer), I asked the tech people at Verizon, my ISP, how to
>>> access newsgroups (I had had Mozilla) and several had never heard of
>>> "newsgroups," and eventually they found someone who thought maybe I
>>> meant "Google groups." It was the ONLY option those presumably
>>> knowledgeable techies knew about in 2006 or so.
>>
>> "Presumably knowlegdeable techies". <emoji with tears running down cheeks>
>
>Weren't they more likely call-center agents with a rush overview
>instruction?

In my experience, call-center techies are there to tell you how to do
what you are unable to do with their product. They are not there to
tell you how find something that is not related to their product.

I would not expect my ISP provider's techies to be the source of
information about available photography discussion forums even though
I would access those forums using my ISP.

Search engines were available at the time he was looking for access to
Usenet. That would have been the logical avenue of approach. Because
he knew newsgroups existed, he was presumably in contact with some
user. Asking that user would have been another logical avene of
approach.

[Peter Moylan]

On 19/01/22 11:28, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> I don't know what that means, but how do you account for the fact
> that drive-by postings no longer occur, and haven't for who-knows-
> how-long? For the second time today, the dog that didn't bark,

The drive-by poster who started this thread started it a little over a
day ago.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 10:20:33 +1100, Peter Moylan
<pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>I once called my phone company to report a problem with the news server.
>Most of the tech support people thought I meant a news feed in my web
>browser. Finally, I got on to someone who knew what I meant.
>
>He told me that their news server was being phased out because there was
>nobody left who knew how to configure it.

At one time, I used Earthlink and used their news server. They phased
it out, but it was up to the customer to find a replacement. Their
techies didn't recommend any. That's when I went to the German
News.Individual.Net. I continue to use them.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 7:48:54 PM UTC-5, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/01/22 11:28, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > I don't know what that means, but how do you account for the fact
> > that drive-by postings no longer occur, and haven't for who-knows-
> > how-long? For the second time today, the dog that didn't bark,
> The drive-by poster who started this thread started it a little over a
> day ago.

Not, however, by responding to the first message, but to one that
was addressed to him five years ago.

[Quinn C]

* Tony Cooper:

> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 17:49:14 -0500, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* CDB:
>>
>>> On 1/18/2022 12:59 PM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>> [the iniquities of GooGoo]
>>>
>>>> That makes no sense. When I was forced to switch from Mac to PC (by
>>>> an employer), I asked the tech people at Verizon, my ISP, how to
>>>> access newsgroups (I had had Mozilla) and several had never heard of
>>>> "newsgroups," and eventually they found someone who thought maybe I
>>>> meant "Google groups." It was the ONLY option those presumably
>>>> knowledgeable techies knew about in 2006 or so.
>>>
>>> "Presumably knowlegdeable techies". <emoji with tears running down cheeks>
>>
>>Weren't they more likely call-center agents with a rush overview
>>instruction?
>
> In my experience, call-center techies are there to tell you how to do
> what you are unable to do with their product. They are not there to
> tell you how find something that is not related to their product.

Right. It would depend on whether the ISP was running a news server, but
as Peter M. reported, even in that case, they might not know, i.e. they
might not be able to help you with one of their minor products that
doesn't really make them money.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

[Quinn C]

I wouldn't know how many there are, since those drive-by posts are
automatically hidden here.

Since most spammers use GG and a Gmail address, such posts are hidden
until I'm convinced that the poster deserves an exception.

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

You're looking at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye.

--
CW: Historical misogyny
Jbzna vf n cnve bs binevrf jvgu n uhzna orvat nggnpurq, jurernf
zna vf n uhzna orvat sheavfurq jvgu n cnve bs grfgrf.
-- Rudolf Virchow

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 20:25:25 -0500, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>Since most spammers use GG and a Gmail address, such posts are hidden
>until I'm convinced that the poster deserves an exception.

I don't know the statistics, but most of the email I see and receive
is from a Gmail account. Some from .edu sources, but Gmail seems to
be the most-used.


While spammers use Gmail, I don't think a Gmail addy is indicative of
a spammer.

[Sam Plusnet]

My ISP does have its own Usenet server, but when someone contacted
Support about a problem the support agent had no idea such a thing
existed.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

Is that genuine confusion or just muddy water?

A drive-by poster responded to a five year old post[1] - probably
something that google popped up in front of him.
If google chose to show him this particular post, then this is the post
he will respond to.

[1] A post to aue - not something addressed to him.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Snidely]

Madhu is guilty of <m3zgntz...@leonis4.robolove.meer.net> as of
1/18/2022 12:55:01 AM
> At least two other posters didn't respond to the new messages but went
> back to old thread and followed up on the years-old messages.
>
> if it was from 2017 e-s should have it according to some claims of
> retention i've heard but it didn't fetch it

Retention varies by group, with [disk] volume being part of that
computation. When I lost my read list (dot-newsrc equivalent),
sci.space.tech went back to 2014, but that only covers a bit over 2200
posts. My AUE list shows more than 10x that, with only a scattering
from before 2021, and much of that scattering is from the recap from
Germany.

Since my newsreader keeps local copies of posts, I probably have a copy
of the thread off somewhere, but I'm not looking for it.

/dps

--
Who, me? And what lacuna?

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 19:08:15 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

My Forte Agent, if I click "All Messages" shows posts from December,
2018 to today.

In one of those December 2018 posts, someone typed:

"Google GROUPS has nothing to do with it. It is GMAIL you should be
complaining about."

Extra points for guessing who.

[Quinn C]

* Tony Cooper:

> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 20:25:25 -0500, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>Since most spammers use GG and a Gmail address, such posts are hidden
>>until I'm convinced that the poster deserves an exception.
>
> I don't know the statistics, but most of the email I see and receive
> is from a Gmail account. Some from .edu sources, but Gmail seems to
> be the most-used.

And how many of those emails of yours also come from Google Groups?
My "and" above was a real "and", not a sloppy "and" meaning "or".

[Janet]

In article <1df3vvap...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
lispa...@crommatograph.info says...

>
> * Peter T. Daniels:
>
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:20:06 PM UTC-5, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
> >> You talked to people who didn't know about Usenet. Fine.
> >> It says nothing about people who _do_ know about Usenet, and access a
> >> Usenet server via a Usenet client.
> >
> > No one here has _ever_ explained why that's better, and there are
> > plenty of accounts here about their failures.
>
> You're looking at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye.

One of the hazards of frequent goalpost-relocation.

Along with falling into a previously-excavated deep hole.


Janet

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:09:47 -0500, Quinn C

<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Tony Cooper:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 20:25:25 -0500, Quinn C
>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>Since most spammers use GG and a Gmail address, such posts are hidden
>>>until I'm convinced that the poster deserves an exception.
>>
>> I don't know the statistics, but most of the email I see and receive
>> is from a Gmail account. Some from .edu sources, but Gmail seems to
>> be the most-used.
>
>And how many of those emails of yours also come from Google Groups?
>My "and" above was a real "and", not a sloppy "and" meaning "or".

None. As far as I know, you can't originate email from Google Groups.

[CDB]

The Law is the law.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Then how did you find out they existed?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Back when it was doing it, it never showed them anything but
the first message in a thread.

> [1] A post to aue - not something addressed to him.

Yeah, like your message here isn't intended for me. (I didn't say
"addressed" because you would grab onto the technical sense
of "address" and claim I didn't know what I was talking about.)

"Gregg Painter" just _happened_ to respond to a post by Snidely
that was a response to "Gregg Painter"?

This is _not_ the pattern that the "drive-by postings" showed.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Claiming with no justification/explanation that GG is inferior to all
other tools is no different, except in consequences, from claiming
that all Jews or all Negroes or all Scots are inferior to all other persons.

If you have reasons, state them.

[Quinn C]

* Tony Cooper:

Indeed. My remarks were only relevant to Usenet posts.

[Quinn C]

Usually when they're quoted by others.

Occasionally, I also bring up hidden posts in the list, and read some of
them, but not the spam-looking kind. But I may get an impression of
their number. Doing that now, I see that there are no recent spam posts
advertising drugs or fake passports. The German group's still getting
those.

It's been a long time since I created a new exception.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 10:41:05 -0500, Quinn C

<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Tony Cooper:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:09:47 -0500, Quinn C
>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>
>>>* Tony Cooper:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 20:25:25 -0500, Quinn C
>>>> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Since most spammers use GG and a Gmail address, such posts are hidden
>>>>>until I'm convinced that the poster deserves an exception.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know the statistics, but most of the email I see and receive
>>>> is from a Gmail account. Some from .edu sources, but Gmail seems to
>>>> be the most-used.
>>>
>>>And how many of those emails of yours also come from Google Groups?
>>>My "and" above was a real "and", not a sloppy "and" meaning "or".
>>
>> None. As far as I know, you can't originate email from Google Groups.
>
>Indeed. My remarks were only relevant to Usenet posts.

I don't see a connection between Gmail and GoogleGroups other than
both are connected with Google. Gmail is a common - if not the most
common - email app, and GoogleGroups is a commonly used app for access
to Usenet.

I don't think there's a reason to suppose that a Gmail user will
choose GoogleGroups just because that user is a Gmail user.

[Madhu]

[since this is about gg and nothing about eulipions]

* Tony Cooper <ni9fug9gg7krbmmsre82ri6ne29437qp3m @4ax.com> :
Wrote on Wed, 19 Jan 2022 00:55:37 -0500:

> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 19:08:15 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>

>>Madhu is guilty of <m3zgntzamy.fsf @leonis4.robolove.meer.net> as of

>>1/18/2022 12:55:01 AM
>>> At least two other posters didn't respond to the new messages but
>>> went back to old thread and followed up on the years-old messages.
>>>
>>> if it was from 2017 e-s should have it according to some claims of
>>> retention i've heard but it didn't fetch it
>>
>>Retention varies by group, with [disk] volume being part of that
>>computation. When I lost my read list (dot-newsrc equivalent),
>>sci.space.tech went back to 2014, but that only covers a bit over 2200
>>posts. My AUE list shows more than 10x that, with only a scattering
>>from before 2021, and much of that scattering is from the recap from
>>Germany.
>>
>>Since my newsreader keeps local copies of posts, I probably have a copy
>>of the thread off somewhere, but I'm not looking for it.

Do you have it download all posts? There must be a HUUGE number of
posts. I only started reading in summer 2018, and maybe a year later I
set up gnus to cache the articles I actually fetch. I skip most of the
posts and I still have some 238670 articles in a single directory and my
relatively new laptop takes a few minutes just to produce a director
listing.

telnet news.eternal-september.org 119
GROUP alt.usage.english
211 75218 1 1196107 alt.usage.english

there are 75218 active articles. The lowest article number is 1, the
highest article number is 1196107. There are stray articles in the
entire range from 1-1196107

The earliest block of articles I could get was XOVER 1120890-1120900
Which gave a

"1120894 Re: by the hour Tony Cooper
<tonyco...@gmail.com> Mon, 02 Nov 2020 23:38:11 -0500
<bin1qf9rl99d592lc...@4ax.com> ..."

(- 1196107 1120894) 75213 which matches the number of articles.

So my information on e-s retentivity was wrong.

> My Forte Agent, if I click "All Messages" shows posts from December,
> 2018 to today.
>
> In one of those December 2018 posts, someone typed:
>
> "Google GROUPS has nothing to do with it. It is GMAIL you should be
> complaining about."
>
> Extra points for guessing who.

I really wish PTD would take the trouble to learn to set up a newsreader
and give up google groups. That way he could killfile all his
killfilers and spare himself the trouble of reading the nonsense which
is not worth it in the first place, instead of being obliged to see the
shit and respond to it, because googlegroups taunts him to respond
(because: lack of kill file facility) and then he is doubly obliged to
defend the antichrist googlegroups because he obliged to use it (and see
the shit in the first place)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Yet another way in which GG is (infinitely?) superior. I have no
mass of newsgroup postings clogging up any storage device,
and any touch they may make on my system (do you call that
downloading?) is evanescent.

Oh, dear. You've been researching too much mysticism.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:48:47 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> >>Since my newsreader keeps local copies of posts, I probably have a copy
>> >>of the thread off somewhere, but I'm not looking for it.
>>
>> Do you have it download all posts? There must be a HUUGE number of
>> posts. I only started reading in summer 2018, and maybe a year later I
>> set up gnus to cache the articles I actually fetch. I skip most of the
>> posts and I still have some 238670 articles in a single directory and my
>> relatively new laptop takes a few minutes just to produce a director
>> listing.
>
>Yet another way in which GG is (infinitely?) superior. I have no
>mass of newsgroup postings clogging up any storage device,
>and any touch they may make on my system (do you call that
>downloading?) is evanescent.

No posts clog up the memory of my storage device. No posts are
retained by my compter. I would expect this is true of every other
reader in this group regardless of how they access the newsgroup.

When I "download" posts, they are downloaded in Agent so that I can
read them. Once I close Agent, they are not accessible to me unless I
re-open Agent or open some other newsreader or GoogleGroups.

What is "downloaded" are the posts that have been originated after the
last "download". No more. Agent does not use the term "download".
The icon to do this is labeled "Get new messages".

There is no difference between a newsreader and GoogleGroups in this
aspect.

It is possible to retain posts in the computer's memory, but it would
be a deliberate step taken by someone and would require copy/pasting
those posts into some created file by the user. It's not a function
of a newsreader.

>> I really wish PTD would take the trouble to learn to set up a newsreader
>> and give up google groups. That way he could killfile all his
>> killfilers and spare himself the trouble of reading the nonsense which
>> is not worth it in the first place, instead of being obliged to see the
>> shit and respond to it, because googlegroups taunts him to respond
>> (because: lack of kill file facility) and then he is doubly obliged to
>> defend the antichrist googlegroups because he obliged to use it (and see
>> the shit in the first place)
>
>Oh, dear. You've been researching too much mysticism.

He's suggesting a way for you to reduce your daily agida.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 12:09:48 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:48:47 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >> >>Since my newsreader keeps local copies of posts, I probably have a copy
> >> >>of the thread off somewhere, but I'm not looking for it.
> >> Do you have it download all posts? There must be a HUUGE number of
> >> posts. I only started reading in summer 2018, and maybe a year later I
> >> set up gnus to cache the articles I actually fetch. I skip most of the
> >> posts and I still have some 238670 articles in a single directory and my
> >> relatively new laptop takes a few minutes just to produce a director
> >> listing.
> >Yet another way in which GG is (infinitely?) superior. I have no
> >mass of newsgroup postings clogging up any storage device,
> >and any touch they may make on my system (do you call that
> >downloading?) is evanescent.
>
> No posts clog up the memory of my storage device. No posts are
> retained by my compter. I would expect this is true of every other
> reader in this group regardless of how they access the newsgroup.

So you didn't even read what I was responding to, where Madhu
says "I still have some 238670 articles in a single directory." (See
directly above for the context and the bit you deleted for the name
of his system, eternal-september.) Once again, the way YOU do
something is not the way EVERYONE does something -- despite
your sentence just above beginning "I would."

> When I "download" posts, they are downloaded in Agent so that I can
> read them. Once I close Agent, they are not accessible to me unless I
> re-open Agent or open some other newsreader or GoogleGroups.
>
> What is "downloaded" are the posts that have been originated after the
> last "download". No more. Agent does not use the term "download".
> The icon to do this is labeled "Get new messages".
>
> There is no difference between a newsreader and GoogleGroups in this
> aspect.
>
> It is possible to retain posts in the computer's memory, but it would
> be a deliberate step taken by someone and would require copy/pasting
> those posts into some created file by the user. It's not a function
> of a newsreader.

All of which has nothing to do with those users here who describe
"downloading" messages and reading them off-line. You can sometimes
tell who they are when they post several messages into a thread
all with the same timestamp.

> >> I really wish PTD would take the trouble to learn to set up a newsreader
> >> and give up google groups. That way he could killfile all his
> >> killfilers and spare himself the trouble of reading the nonsense which
> >> is not worth it in the first place, instead of being obliged to see the
> >> shit and respond to it, because googlegroups taunts him to respond
> >> (because: lack of kill file facility) and then he is doubly obliged to
> >> defend the antichrist googlegroups because he obliged to use it (and see
> >> the shit in the first place)
> >Oh, dear. You've been researching too much mysticism.
>
> He's suggesting a way for you to reduce your daily agida.

And deprive you of the only pleasure you can find in life? Call
me altruistic.

[Quinn C]

* CDB:

Obey gravity! It's the law!

--
I try not to dwell on what's right and what's wrong.
It slows my processors.
-- Rommie (Andromeda ship AI)

[Quinn C]

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 8:18:37 AM UTC-5, Janet wrote:
>> In article <1df3vvap...@mid.crommatograph.info>,
>> lispa...@crommatograph.info says...
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 3:20:06 PM UTC-5, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>>> >> You talked to people who didn't know about Usenet. Fine.
>>> >> It says nothing about people who _do_ know about Usenet, and access a
>>> >> Usenet server via a Usenet client.
>>> > No one here has _ever_ explained why that's better, and there are
>>> > plenty of accounts here about their failures.
>>> You're looking at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye.
>> One of the hazards of frequent goalpost-relocation.
>>
>> Along with falling into a previously-excavated deep hole.
>
> Claiming with no justification/explanation that GG is inferior to all
> other tools is no different, except in consequences, from claiming
> that all Jews or all Negroes or all Scots are inferior to all other persons.
>
> If you have reasons, state them.

The reasons have been stated over and over ad nauseam.

Most Newsreaders have a few bugs or peculiarities, but GG is clearly the
champ of bugginess, standard non-conformance, and user-unfriendliness.

--
Canada's brand is well-intentioned genocide.
-- Hannah McGregor

[Quinn C]

OK, one more time from the start.

On Usenet, most spammers - like the people who advertise drugs or fake
passports - use Google Groups and a Gmail address.

I find that hiding all posts that come from Google Groups *and* use a
Gmail address takes care of 99% of such spam. So that's pretty useful. I
don't hide posts that fulfill only one of the two criteria.

Now it still wrongly hides posts from a few legitimate posters.
Therefore, I need to be ready to make exceptions when I notice - e.g. by
reading quotes - that there is a serious, interesting contributor who
uses GG and Gmail. David Kleinecke is one such exception I have entered
into my scoring file.

The rule also hides a lot of the short-term, not-so-serious posters, but
I find that a small loss. I'll probably notice them in quotes if they
say something interesting.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 19-Jan-22 15:20, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> Claiming with no justification/explanation that GG is inferior to all
> other tools is no different, except in consequences, from claiming
> that all Jews or all Negroes or all Scots are inferior to all other persons.

Is there a variant of Godwin's Law which covers this tactic?

If not, there should be.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Snidely]

Tony Cooper speculated:

> No posts clog up the memory of my storage device. No posts are
> retained by my compter. I would expect this is true of every other
> reader in this group regardless of how they access the newsgroup.

No, it isn't true.

> When I "download" posts, they are downloaded in Agent so that I can
> read them. Once I close Agent, they are not accessible to me unless I
> re-open Agent or open some other newsreader or GoogleGroups.
>
> What is "downloaded" are the posts that have been originated after the
> last "download". No more. Agent does not use the term "download".
> The icon to do this is labeled "Get new messages".

Yes, and those new messages are stored on your computer alongside the
ones previously gotten. That you don't see those messages when you're
not in Forte is an artifact of how you view your computer. Should you
open a Windows Explorer window to the correct directory, you would see
how these messages are stored.

> There is no difference between a newsreader and GoogleGroups in this
> aspect.

Wrong.

This time, Tony, I think it is you playing well-frog.

/dps

--
"That’s where I end with this kind of conversation: Language is
crucial, and yet not the answer."
Jonathan Rosa, sociocultural and linguistic anthropologist,
Stanford.,2020

[Snidely]

CDB asserted that:

So I presumed.

-d

--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15

[Snidely]

Tony Cooper presented the following explanation :

You can, when you "reply to poster".

It doesn't cover the "knowledge rule" Quinn is applying.


(Sorry, that term is a nod towards the old design of expert systems,
but I'm not an expert systems expert. And Quinn is probably more into
stats than ExSys.)

/dps

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:36:16 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Tony Cooper speculated:
>
>> No posts clog up the memory of my storage device. No posts are
>> retained by my compter. I would expect this is true of every other
>> reader in this group regardless of how they access the newsgroup.
>
>No, it isn't true.
>
>> When I "download" posts, they are downloaded in Agent so that I can
>> read them. Once I close Agent, they are not accessible to me unless I
>> re-open Agent or open some other newsreader or GoogleGroups.
>>
>> What is "downloaded" are the posts that have been originated after the
>> last "download". No more. Agent does not use the term "download".
>> The icon to do this is labeled "Get new messages".
>
>Yes, and those new messages are stored on your computer alongside the
>ones previously gotten. That you don't see those messages when you're
>not in Forte is an artifact of how you view your computer. Should you
>open a Windows Explorer window to the correct directory, you would see
>how these messages are stored.

I am quite willing to be corrected, but - in this case - would like
some further information. Just direct me to the directory on my
computer, or how to find that directory, and I will retract anything
I've said if I'm wrong.

>> There is no difference between a newsreader and GoogleGroups in this
>> aspect.
>
>Wrong.
>
>This time, Tony, I think it is you playing well-frog.
>
>/dps
--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:26:13 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Madhu is an exception. To paraphrase you: The way Madhu does
something is not the way everyone does something.

Madhu has taken some deliberate action to do this. He may have
written a program to do this, but that was a deliberate action.

Eternal September's website says: Retention is currently 2 years for
de.*, 160 days for the Big 8, 130 days for alt.* and 90 days for other
hierarchies.

While that is mostly gobbledegook for me, and probably for you, what
can be understood is that the organization, not the user, retains the
posts. The user must take some deliberate action to retain the posts
on their own computer.

>> When I "download" posts, they are downloaded in Agent so that I can
>> read them. Once I close Agent, they are not accessible to me unless I
>> re-open Agent or open some other newsreader or GoogleGroups.
>>
>> What is "downloaded" are the posts that have been originated after the
>> last "download". No more. Agent does not use the term "download".
>> The icon to do this is labeled "Get new messages".
>>
>> There is no difference between a newsreader and GoogleGroups in this
>> aspect.
>>
>> It is possible to retain posts in the computer's memory, but it would
>> be a deliberate step taken by someone and would require copy/pasting
>> those posts into some created file by the user. It's not a function
>> of a newsreader.
>
>All of which has nothing to do with those users here who describe
>"downloading" messages and reading them off-line. You can sometimes
>tell who they are when they post several messages into a thread
>all with the same timestamp.

It's not my impression that they download the posts *to* their
computer. They download the new posts (since they have last done
this) and then go offline to read them.

They are people like Steve Hayes who connect to Internet are charged
for the time they are connected.

They respond to some posts, and then upload those responses when they
go back on-line.

The term "downloading" means refreshing the available posts. They are
not downloading the posts to their computer.

Snidely has posted that I am wrong on this and that the posts are
downloaded *to* the computer. I have questioned his claim.

If it were true, I'd have some bloated file of a few years of Usenet
posts on my computer.

I think the problem is with the choice of words. Some (myself
included) say we "download" the yet-unread posts, and we're using the
same word we use when we actually download something *to* our
computer.

We are really just refreshing the list of unread messages that our
newsreader displays.

If I am wrong, and Snidely comes through with some information that
proves me so, I assure you I will post a retraction of my comments.

[J. J. Lodder]

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:48:47 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> >>Since my newsreader keeps local copies of posts, I probably have a copy
> >> >>of the thread off somewhere, but I'm not looking for it.
> >>
> >> Do you have it download all posts? There must be a HUUGE number of
> >> posts. I only started reading in summer 2018, and maybe a year later I
> >> set up gnus to cache the articles I actually fetch. I skip most of the
> >> posts and I still have some 238670 articles in a single directory and my
> >> relatively new laptop takes a few minutes just to produce a director
> >> listing.
> >
> >Yet another way in which GG is (infinitely?) superior. I have no
> >mass of newsgroup postings clogging up any storage device,
> >and any touch they may make on my system (do you call that
> >downloading?) is evanescent.
>
> No posts clog up the memory of my storage device. No posts are
> retained by my compter. I would expect this is true of every other
> reader in this group regardless of how they access the newsgroup.

You misexpect.

> When I "download" posts, they are downloaded in Agent so that I can
> read them. Once I close Agent, they are not accessible to me unless I
> re-open Agent or open some other newsreader or GoogleGroups.
>
> What is "downloaded" are the posts that have been originated after the
> last "download". No more. Agent does not use the term "download".
> The icon to do this is labeled "Get new messages".
>
> There is no difference between a newsreader and GoogleGroups in this
> aspect.
>
> It is possible to retain posts in the computer's memory, but it would
> be a deliberate step taken by someone and would require copy/pasting
> those posts into some created file by the user. It's not a function
> of a newsreader.

Again, you misexpect.
My newsclient retains all it has downloaded.
Getting rid of it requires action.
This is called 'purging'. It can be automatic,
or you can de it by hand, or not at all.

Purging to save space was perhaps of importance in the stone age.
(when people downloaded usenet by modem to floppies)

Nowadays all of AUE history takes up ten cents worth,

Jan

[J. J. Lodder]

That's a misunderstanding of what Godwin's law is.
Godwin doesn't forbid anything. Godwin stated the empirical fact
that such a mention is bound to occur if a thread lasts long enough.
(Popper would object)

Godwin also stated that it doesn't matter much,
because by the time it happens the thread isn't worth following anyway,

Jan

[Snidely]

With a quizzical look, Tony Cooper observed:

> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:36:16 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Tony Cooper speculated:
>>
>>> No posts clog up the memory of my storage device. No posts are
>>> retained by my compter. I would expect this is true of every other
>>> reader in this group regardless of how they access the newsgroup.
>>
>> No, it isn't true.
>>
>>> When I "download" posts, they are downloaded in Agent so that I can
>>> read them. Once I close Agent, they are not accessible to me unless I
>>> re-open Agent or open some other newsreader or GoogleGroups.
>>>
>>> What is "downloaded" are the posts that have been originated after the
>>> last "download". No more. Agent does not use the term "download".
>>> The icon to do this is labeled "Get new messages".
>>
>> Yes, and those new messages are stored on your computer alongside the
>> ones previously gotten. That you don't see those messages when you're
>> not in Forte is an artifact of how you view your computer. Should you
>> open a Windows Explorer window to the correct directory, you would see
>> how these messages are stored.
>
> I am quite willing to be corrected, but - in this case - would like
> some further information. Just direct me to the directory on my
> computer, or how to find that directory, and I will retract anything
> I've said if I'm wrong.

You've already said you have articles back to 2018.

I don't know Forte well enough to be sure of the exact answer. MesNews
uses [user homedir]\AppDir\Local\MesNews

Your Forte may be old enough not to have follow the AppDir convention;
some older programs use the Program Files directory the program lives
in, others keep things in a subdirectory of C:\.


My MesNews storage is 3.4 GB for a lot of AUE posts, a lot of TONG
posts, a fair number of sci.space.* posts, and bits of others. 1.2 GB
of that is AUE, thanks to you and PTD.

Usenet takes up a lot less space than photographs.

(The directory for one of my less-used cameras is 1.5 GB for 277
files.)

/dps


--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

I'm afraid so.

https://alt.usenet.offline-reader.forte-agent.narkive.com/GVVxQuDN/how-to-move-the-data-folder

says:
By default Win-7 installed the Forte data folder in > User >
Roaming>Agent.

(I don't know if this is different in W10, I'm an XP user and haven't used forte)
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 4:15:29 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:26:13 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 12:09:48 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 08:48:47 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

[no, he did not]

You just had to get in a nasty slap, didn't you. It means it throws away
messages of the stated ages for newsgroups pertaining to Germany,
for the original 8 "domains" that were set up in some long-ago era
(including sci. and rec.), groups that were devised afterward and for some
reason weren't fitted into any of the 8 "domains" (alternate"), and whatever
else there may be that I haven't heard of.

I just know that stuff. I didn't "research" it, as you could have done.

> what
> can be understood is that the organization, not the user, retains the
> posts. The user must take some deliberate action to retain the posts
> on their own computer.

Keep digging. I believe someone has used your idol the dead sociopath's
term that you favor, "wellfrog," of you just now.

> >> When I "download" posts, they are downloaded in Agent so that I can
> >> read them. Once I close Agent, they are not accessible to me unless I
> >> re-open Agent or open some other newsreader or GoogleGroups.
> >> What is "downloaded" are the posts that have been originated after the
> >> last "download". No more. Agent does not use the term "download".
> >> The icon to do this is labeled "Get new messages".
> >> There is no difference between a newsreader and GoogleGroups in this
> >> aspect.
> >> It is possible to retain posts in the computer's memory, but it would
> >> be a deliberate step taken by someone and would require copy/pasting
> >> those posts into some created file by the user. It's not a function
> >> of a newsreader.
> >All of which has nothing to do with those users here who describe
> >"downloading" messages and reading them off-line. You can sometimes
> >tell who they are when they post several messages into a thread
> >all with the same timestamp.
>
> It's not my impression that they download the posts *to* their
> computer. They download the new posts (since they have last done
> this) and then go offline to read them.

What the bloody fuck do you think they download them to, you moron?

> They are people like Steve Hayes who connect to Internet are charged
> for the time they are connected.
>
> They respond to some posts, and then upload those responses when they
> go back on-line.
>
> The term "downloading" means refreshing the available posts. They are
> not downloading the posts to their computer.

No, you _really_ don't get to play Humpty Dumpty.

> Snidely has posted that I am wrong on this and that the posts are
> downloaded *to* the computer. I have questioned his claim.
>
> If it were true, I'd have some bloated file of a few years of Usenet
> posts on my computer.
>
> I think the problem is with the choice of words. Some (myself
> included) say we "download" the yet-unread posts, and we're using the
> same word we use when we actually download something *to* our
> computer.

That's pretty stupid.

> We are really just refreshing the list of unread messages that our
> newsreader displays.

Where is that list kept? Do you think it's a directory housed somewhere
on your computer (and link-urls wouldn't count as downloads)? That
sounds something like a cookie, because it would have to be
instantly accessible and mutable.

But I suspect that if you accessed your account from some other
computer, you'd get the same list of unread messages.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 19/01/2022 20:47, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 12:36:16 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Tony Cooper speculated:
>>
>>> No posts clog up the memory of my storage device. No posts are
>>> retained by my compter. I would expect this is true of every other
>>> reader in this group regardless of how they access the newsgroup.
>>
>> No, it isn't true.
>>
>>> When I "download" posts, they are downloaded in Agent so that I can
>>> read them. Once I close Agent, they are not accessible to me unless I
>>> re-open Agent or open some other newsreader or GoogleGroups.
>>>
>>> What is "downloaded" are the posts that have been originated after the
>>> last "download". No more. Agent does not use the term "download".
>>> The icon to do this is labeled "Get new messages".
>>
>> Yes, and those new messages are stored on your computer alongside the
>> ones previously gotten. That you don't see those messages when you're
>> not in Forte is an artifact of how you view your computer. Should you
>> open a Windows Explorer window to the correct directory, you would see
>> how these messages are stored.
>
> I am quite willing to be corrected, but - in this case - would like
> some further information. Just direct me to the directory on my
> computer, or how to find that directory, and I will retract anything
> I've said if I'm wrong.

Your computer I can't presume to know anything about, but on /my/
computer aue articles are stored in the file
~/.thunderbird/li4epdme.default/News/news.eternal-september.org/alt.usage.english.msf

They are very much stored locally...on *my* computer. But AFAIK there is
nothing in the NNTP protocol to forbid readers from fetching old
articles afresh each time they are invoked. Therefore YMMV.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Quinn C]

* J. J. Lodder:

Well, yeah. Most people focus on the last point: when it happens, it's a
sign that communication has broken down.

I agree that it's an overreach to assign to Godwin that the person who
does the Nazi comparison broke it.