Eenie, Meenie, Miney, Moe...Etymology?
Rick Kitchen
In a previous article, ji...@baloo.qualcomm.com (Jill Lundquist) says:
>Someone else mentioned that it should be "catch a niggard" and
>suggested that he would probably teach his children the rhyme
>"catch a miser." Is there more to this verse than I know?
>I know it as:
>
> Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
> Catch a tiger by his toe.
> If he hollers, let him go,
> Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe.
Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
Catch a <whatever> by the toe.
If he hollers make him pay,
Fifty dollars every day.
--
Rick Kitchen ap...@yfn.ysu.edu
"Gods don't like people not doing much work. People who aren't busy all
the time might start to *think*.
--Terry Pratchett, "Small Gods"
Robert Bryan Lipton
: Robert Bryan Lipton (lip...@news.dorsai.org) wrote:
: : According to John & Peter Opie in the DICTIONARY OF NURSERY RHYMES (p.13)
: : 'It is apparent that there is a connexion between these scores [various
: : countings from one to ten in local speech in England and Wales]... and
: : similarly a link may be discerned with the children's rhymes...'
: You're thinking of something different.
How would you know? Apparently you have checked the page of the book and
have been unable to find the discussion which takes up half the page.
Since you cannot read I surmise you cannot think and if you cannot think,
you haven't a clue as to what I am thinking about.
This is the fuckingest stupidest argument since the one on Urban Legends
three years ago about whether Redi Whip had Nitrous Oxide; when I
checked a can at the Supermarket and reported that it had nitrous oxide,
I was told that I was wrong.
Bob
Ken Moore
children's nomenclature but originated no earlier than 1940. The book
by Iona and Peter Opie, `Children's Games in Street and Playground',
Oxford, has 30+ pages of them.
They describe `Eeny, meeny, miney, mo, . .' as 80 years old in 1969.
They also give many variants starting `Eeny, meeny, macca, racca, .';
several from the US in the 19th century, eg:
`Eeny, meeny, tipty, te,
Teena, dinah, domine,
Hocca, proach, domma, noach,
Hi, pon, tus.' (Philadelphia, 1855);
and a Hungarian version from `Zeitschrift fur deutsche Mythologie',
vol. ii, 1855, p218:
`Engete pengete zukate me
Abri fabri domine
Enx penx
Du bist drauss.',
to support their suggestion of a central European origin.
--
Happy * We wish you
Christmas */ \* good health
from *//*\\* peace and
Ken and Patsy Moore I prosperity
Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
Robert L Rosenberg
<snip>
: I learned the second line of the rhyme as "catch a tiger by the
: toe," and never heard the "nigger" version until I was an adult.
Same here (born and raised in Cleveland, Ohio).
: Someone else mentioned that it should be "catch a niggard" and
: suggested that he would probably teach his children the rhyme
: "catch a miser." Is there more to this verse than I know?
: I know it as:
: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
: Catch a tiger by his toe.
: If he hollers, let him go,
: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe.
<snip>
Mine was slightly different. As a counting song in a (co-ed) group of
kids, the last line was (instead of E-M-M-M):
My mother said to choose the one I love!
--
Bob "and hoped I didn't wind up pointing to a boy" Rosenberg
--
Bob Rosenberg at George Mason University \ /~~~\ /
Student of Artificial Intelligence -- ( <~> ) --
Practitioner Dealing with Military Intelligence / \ # / \
Possessor (One Hopes) of Real Intelligence |#|
Rachel Meisel
DM: [The way I ] learned the rhyme was "nigger" and I would guess that
DM: is true for many. The connotation of miserly was never conveyed (or
DM: construed?). That I learned the version I did may reflect my limited
DM: vocabulary at the time, but I think few five year olds know the word
DM: "niggerd".
DM: The "cleaned up" or, if you prefer, pc version of the rhyme
DM: substituted "monkey" for "nigger". I'll probably teach my sons
DM: to say "catch a miser by the toe".
DM: David "One-potato, two potato" Martin
Interesting. I can't speak to the nigger/niggard issue because the
version in our neck of the woods was "catch a tiger by the toe." This
was at a time and place--the South in the Sixties--when political
correctness was not shaping discourse in the schoolyard, and I wouldn't
be surprised to learn that my parents thought the "tiger" version was
the only one. Surely that one's sanitized, but (to repeat JRaglin's
original question) does anyone have information on the source of the rhyme?
Rachel
MrJones
Clay Shirky <cl...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>Our cleaned up version in the Midwest was "catch a tiger by the toe".
And in the South, where the ugly head of racism was admired by many, I
only learned "catch a rabbit by his toe," which now appears both sexist
and leporidist, to say the least.
Steve "speaking of rabbits, can we start the "foo-foo" thread again?" Jones
Steven Joseph Marzuola
: Jill Lundquist (ji...@baloo.qualcomm.com) wrote:
:
: <snip>
:
: : I learned the second line of the rhyme as "catch a tiger by the
: : toe," and never heard the "nigger" version until I was an adult.
:
: Same here (born and raised in Cleveland, Ohio).
My mom said "baby", but friends in the neighborhood said "nigger". When I
pointed out the difference, she said that wasn't a very nice word, or
something.
Steve "politically correct before her time, but Republican now" Marzuola
--
Enough realities, we want promises! -- graffiti seen in Lima, Peru
Philip Morgan
>
> In article <17091A82S...@utcvm.utc.edu> JRA...@utcvm.utc.edu writes:
> >
> >What is the etymology/origins of the counting song "Eenie, Meeny, Miney, Moe"?
>
> No. It simply means "one, two, three, four", in some one of the Celtic
> languages (I want to say Welsh, but I'm not sure; that might be
> hickory dickory dock).
It's not Welsh or 'Cumbrian' which would be 'een/eena dai/deena tri/treena'
respectively (these are my attempts at phonetics - members of Cwmdeithas yr Iaeth Cymraeg
please note)
Out of interest what's the origin of 'hickory dickory dock' ?
Philip
CARDIFF
Clay Shirky
> Bob "and hoped I didn't wind up pointing to a boy" Rosenberg
Your loss.
Clay "will dereference pointers for food" Shirky
Ray Depew
by the toe" was an attempt to sanitize the rhyme and remove any racial
slur. I disagree completely. I think that "tiger" began as merely
a regional variant.
When I was a wee lad more than thirty years ago, in northern Alberta,
we used to sing "catch a tiger by the toe." The racial activism prevalent
in the world today did not exist in northern Alberta back then. If
the rhyme had said "nigger," we would have said "nigger."
Back then and there, Brazil nuts were commonly called "nigger toes,"
so obviously the word was known and in use. (And you should have seen
the looks I got in Delaware in third grade, when I called a Brazil
nut a "nigger toe." I wanted to disappear into the floor.)
As for the source of "catch a tiger by the toe," I would guess that
it started out as "catch a tiger by the tail" but was changed to make
things rhyme better.
Regards
Ray "and it's still 'Little BUNNY Foo-Foo'" Depew
Larry Krakauer
Jill Lundquist <ji...@baloo.qualcomm.com> wrote:
> [...]
>I know it as:
>
> Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
> Catch a tiger by his toe.
> If he hollers, let him go,
> Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe.
>
>often heard "go" used as a synonym for "say," there are two
>possible meanings:
>
> If he hollers, let him go [say], "Eeny, meeny, miney, moe!"
> or
> If he hollers, let him go. (then the last line is just something
> to chant)
>
>I think the second meaning makes more sense, especially
>considering how nonstandard it is to use "go" for "say."
It's not only nonstandard, I thought it was of extremely recent
vintage. I NEVER recall hearing "go" to mean "say" before about
ten years ago, and when I first heard it from some high-school students,
I didn't know what they were saying. Jill must be a LOT younger than
I to have heard this as a child, or perhaps it's been around longer
than I realize.
In any event, I always though the stress used in reciting this
poem pinned down the second meaning. There was always a full stop
after the "go". From the stress, it could NEVER have been interpreted
as "If he hollers, let him go, `Eeny, meeny, ...' ". But then again,
there are often regional differences in how these rhymes are recited.
Is "go" for "say" older than I think?
-- Larry Krakauer (lar...@kronos.com)
K. Edgcombe
Steven Joseph Marzuola <marz...@owlnet.rice.edu> wrote:
>In article <3d7lld$a...@portal.gmu.edu> rros...@osf1.gmu.edu (Robert L Rosenberg) writes:
> : Jill Lundquist (ji...@baloo.qualcomm.com) wrote:
> :
> : <snip>
> :
> : : I learned the second line of the rhyme as "catch a tiger by the
> : : toe," and never heard the "nigger" version until I was an adult.
> :
> : Same here (born and raised in Cleveland, Ohio).
>
>My mom said "baby", but friends in the neighborhood said "nigger". When I
>pointed out the difference, she said that wasn't a very nice word, or
>something.
>
if people gave approximate dates. In England around 1950 it was certainly
"nigger". Do any of the "alternative" versions go back before the mid-sixties
(which I think is roughly when the word "nigger" became thoroughly
unacceptable)?
It seems very likely that the "niggard" version is simply an attempt to
clean up the original; however, "tiger" might be older - or just a better
clean-up attempt, since it is not such an obscure word.
Charlie Mitchell
ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe) writes:
>>
>It would shed a bit more light on this question (do we really want to?)
>if people gave approximate dates. In England around 1950 it was certainly
>"nigger". Do any of the "alternative" versions go back before the mid-sixties
>(which I think is roughly when the word "nigger" became thoroughly
>unacceptable)?
>
>It seems very likely that the "niggard" version is simply an attempt to
>clean up the original; however, "tiger" might be older - or just a better
>clean-up attempt, since it is not such an obscure word.
>
it to mean "African American child" (since we were children at the
time; maybe I was the only one who imagined the person in question
as about my own age). If it was ever "niggard", it had definitely
lost any hint of that meaning before it reached us.
Charlie
Cindy Kandolf
>> Thank you for misquoting the rhyme in the manner I alluded to.
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>It seems to me that "misquoting" is the wrong term here. The way I
>learned the rhyme was "nigger" and I would guess that is true for
>many. The connotation of miserly was never conveyed (or construed?).
>That I learned the version I did may reflect my limited vocabulary at
>the time, but I think few five year olds know the word "niggerd".
Exactly. Children's rhymes change, it's as simple as that. If no one
is saying "niggard" any more - and i've certainly never heard anyone
say that - then it's silly to say that everyone who isn't is
"misquoting" the rhyme! These rhymes are oral tradition, which by its
nature changes as it gets passed on from one person or one generation
to another.
For the record, i learned "piggy". My guess is someone who had
learned "nigger" at some time changed it to "piggy", which sounded
similar, possibly because the word "nigger" had become less
acceptable. I had a book of nursery rhymes which said "tiger"
instead.
>The "cleaned up" or, if you prefer, pc version of the rhyme
>substituted "monkey" for "nigger". I'll probably teach my sons
>to say "catch a miser by the toe".
I hope the world isn't coming to the point where simple politeness is
called "PC".
I will probably teach my son "catch a piggy by its toe", the way i
learned it. At least i can be pretty sure he'll only learn one
version!
-Cindy Kandolf, certified language mechanic, mamma flodnak
ci...@nvg.unit.no
Trondheim, Norway
Oportet Ministros Manus Lavare Antequam Latrinam Relinquent!
Elaine Clark
: Someone else mentioned that it should be "catch a niggard" and
: suggested that he would probably teach his children the rhyme
: "catch a miser." Is there more to this verse than I know?
: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
: Catch a tiger by his toe.
: If he hollers, let him go,
: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe.
VARIANTS INCLUDE :)
Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
Catch a [insert any term discussed here] by his toe
If he hollers, make him pay,
Fifty dollars every day.
: Where is the miser? Does one have to know the "niggard" version
: (which appears to be more standard than the version I learned)
: to know that there is a miser at all? None of the rest of the
: verse seems to require that character be miserly.
The reluctance to pay the 50 bucks is probably a trait I would
exhibit, but then again, children don't have to put themselves through
grad school.
Elaine Clark University of Utah -- Middle East Center
Life may have no meaning -- or even worse, it may have
a meaning of which I disapprove!
Gretchen Adams Bond
>In <3da91t$n...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>, ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe) writes:
>[ deleted quotes ]
>>It would shed a bit more light on this question (do we really want to?)
>>if people gave approximate dates. In England around 1950 it was certainly
>>"nigger". Do any of the "alternative" versions go back before the mid-sixties
>>(which I think is roughly when the word "nigger" became thoroughly
>>unacceptable)?
>>
>>It seems very likely that the "niggard" version is simply an attempt to
>>clean up the original; however, "tiger" might be older - or just a better
>>clean-up attempt, since it is not such an obscure word.
>>
>>
>
>mutation. Probably more clear than how it got to tiger (maybe "tiger"
>evolved via "tigger"?).
>
>I grew up on Long Island, NY. This would be around the early 70's.
>
>Perry
I remembered it as "catch a nickel by the toe." And yes, my sister also
remembers it that way...semantic fading? clean-up attempt? Why were we too
dense to question the presence of toes on a nickel? "Sis" says: "The whole
thing sounded like nonsense. I just thought it was more of the same."
This would be in the linguistic mutation capital of America: Rhode Island circa
early 1960's.
Gretchen "eh, you gotta problem with that or what?" Bond
>
Toby Barrett
Cindy Kandolf <ci...@nvg.unit.no> wrote:
>For the record, i learned "piggy". My guess is someone who had
>learned "nigger" at some time changed it to "piggy", which sounded
>similar, possibly because the word "nigger" had become less
>acceptable. I had a book of nursery rhymes which said "tiger"
>instead.
As a child I remember being bemused because the version my grand-
mother taught me said "nigger" but at school we used "piggy".
Of course in these PC times, we may find the "piggy" word being
objected to because of the offence it will give to muslims.
Toby "I'm not joking" Barrett
_________________________________________________
Toby Barrett toby...@bnr.co.uk +44 279 402934
BNR Europe Ltd, London Road, Harlow, CM17 9NA, UK
Perry Friedman
>if people gave approximate dates. In England around 1950 it was certainly
>"nigger". Do any of the "alternative" versions go back before the mid-sixties
>(which I think is roughly when the word "nigger" became thoroughly
>unacceptable)?
>
>It seems very likely that the "niggard" version is simply an attempt to
>clean up the original; however, "tiger" might be older - or just a better
>clean-up attempt, since it is not such an obscure word.
>
>
I remember the song as "catch a piggy by the toe." I suppose this is a clear
YuNoHoo
: I will probably teach my son "catch a piggy by its toe", the way i
: learned it. At least i can be pretty sure he'll only learn one
: version!
Wrong. I'll do my best to tell him it's "catch a 'nisse' by the toe"
before somebody else is bound to go "catch Sir Edgar Allan Poe" or
translate the whole thing into `Troengelsk'...
---
YuNoHoo "it's hard to be a nissemann"
- The Julekalender
Bernhard Muenzer
In article <3d7bt1$2...@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>, don...@srd.bt.co.uk (Donald Fisk) writes:
| Robert Bryan Lipton (lip...@news.dorsai.org) wrote:
| : Tony Sweeney (swe...@ingres.com) wrote:
| : : In article <17091A82S...@utcvm.utc.edu> JRA...@utcvm.utc.edu writes:
| : : >What is the etymology/origins of the counting song "Eenie, Meeny, Miney, Moe"?
| : : >Are there concealed racial slurs, history lessons, or other oddities to be
| : : >found in this innocuous piece of dogerrel?
| : : No. It simply means "one, two, three, four", in some one of the Celtic
| : : languages (I want to say Welsh, but I'm not sure; that might be
| : : hickory dickory dock).
| It doesn't mean 1, 2, 3, 4 in any of the Celtic languages: Gaelic is
| aon, da\, tri\, ceithir, and Welsh is something like un, dau, tri, pedwar.
| The other Celtic languages are very similar to either the Gaelic or
| Welsh.
Just adding more confusion to this thread:
The most popular pseudo random number generator with German kids goes:
Eene, mene, mu, Eenie, meenie, moe,
und raus bist du. and you are out.
raus bist du noch lange nicht; NOT !
sag mir erst, wie alt Du bist ! read("%d") your_age;
1, 2, 3, ... for (i=1; i<=your_age; i++);
[..] read("%s") your_name; ...
The simple purity of this rhyme clearly shows that this is the archetypical
counting rhyme, while the English version has been corrupted by insertion
of the apocryphal "Miney" in order to make it scan with a more or less
disguised ethnic joke.
The "Miney" bug in the first line of the English version is the reason
for the previous failure of entomologic analysis. The other reason is
that the previous posters have tried to find one language to fit the
first line of the poem.
The truth, however, is more universal and more profound: the simple
rhyme reflects the implications and limitations of the concept of
counting and numbers.
The first word, "eene", can clearly be traced to the word "one" in
old Germanic languages. This refers to the concept of using numbers
for counting purposes; a theme which will reappear in several
variations throughout the poem.
The use of the female gender is an indication that it may be an old
incantation from ancient, matriarchic ages.
The second word, "mene", uses the hebrew word for weighing to indicate
the concept of real numbers, in which the integers are embedded.
This allusion to biblical references is not to be taken lightly.
It forebodes the ultimate failure of trying to get over the problems
intrinsic to the numbering concept by extending it to real numbers.
The key to the interpretation of the whole poem is the third word, "mu".
This zen word clearly refutes the assumption that all questions are
to be decidable.
The rest of the rhyme elaborates on the counting motif presented in
the first line. It is crucial to note that both name and age of the
kids involved in the game are used for counting, with the result
being the pointer to yet another kid. These nested self-references
are the definite proof what the poem is all about:
This little children's counting rhyme is nothing less than an archaic
version of Goedel's theorem.
b "but does it have Buddha nature ?" m
--
int m,u,e=0;float l,_,I;main(){for(;e<1863;putchar((++e>923&&952>
e?60-m:u)["\n)ed.fsg@eum(rezneuM drahnreB"]))for(u=_=l=0;(m=e%81)
<80&&I*l+_*_<6&&20>++u;_=2*l*_+e/81*.09-1,l=I)I=l*l-_*_-2+m/27.;}
Randall C. Poe
was easy to pick the starting point so that you could eliminate
(or choose) anyone you wanted? We had a few variants, and clever
people would start inserting the variants on the spot (e.g., add
the "My mother said to pick..." or spell out words, etc.) to make
the results come out how they wanted.
Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
Harry Smith
Poe) writes:
This reminds me of the Flavius Josephus problem. See Knuth, "The Art of
Computer Programming", Vol. 1.
--
| Harry J. Smith
| 19628 Via Monte Dr., Saratoga, CA 95070-4522, USA
| Home Phone: 408 741-0406, Work Phone: 408 235-5088 (Voice Mail)
| EMail: HJS...@ix.netcom.com on the Internet via Netcom NetCruiser
--
John Wilkinson
There are lots, I'm sure. (I wouldn't call these "pseudo-random", by the way).
I would suggest consulting the Opeys' "The Lore and Language of Schoolchildren."
I know two:
One two three four five six seven.
All good chiidren go to heaven.
Penny on the water, penny on the sea,
Penny on the ocean, out goes he. [or she, as the case may be]
And one in French:
Omme Stromme Gomme
Piqui piqui colle' gromme.
Bourree' bourree' rat-a-tomme.
Omme Stromme Gomme.
(I can't swear to the spelling!) (nor to the spelling of "Opey")
Bruce Tindall
>This reminds me of the Flavius Josephus problem. See Knuth, "The Art of
>Computer Programming", Vol. 1.
Or, for the more jurassic among us, Kasner and Newman, _Mathematics
and the Imagination_ (1940), which describes related counting-games
and -chants in several cultures.
--
P. O. Box 447, Morrisville NC 27560 USA.
David DeLaney
Hundreds, if not thousands. For example:
"Intery mintery cuttery corn
Apple peach and apple thorn
Wire, briar, limberlock
There were three geese in a flock
One flew East, one flew West,
and one flew over the cuckoo's nest;
out, goes, you!"
Dave "Almost any jumprope rhyme will do for another example" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO; VRbeableWIKTHLC
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / CanterSiegelKibozeBait!!
Joseph C Fineman
the toe". We were aware of the "nigger" version, but it was taboo --
not that there were any Negroes in my school to be offended, but it
was a rude word. The quatrain was uniformly followed up with "My
mother told me to choose this very best one." I never heard anyone
try to insert extra syllables; I think it would have been considered
cheating.
--
Joe Fineman j...@world.std.com
239 Clinton Road (617) 731-9190
Brookline, MA 02146
Harlan Messinger
: Did anyone else notice as a kid that it wasn't random, and that it
Sure:
One potato, two potato, three potato, four.
Five potato, six potato, seven potato, more.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
There is no such thing as bad data, only data from bad homes.
Mark Desilets
> Randall C. Poe (ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu) wrote:
> : Did anyone else notice as a kid that it wasn't random, and that it
> : was easy to pick the starting point so that you could eliminate
> : (or choose) anyone you wanted? We had a few variants, and clever
> : people would start inserting the variants on the spot (e.g., add
> : the "My mother said to pick..." or spell out words, etc.) to make
> : the results come out how they wanted.
>
> : Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
>
> Sure:
>
> One potato, two potato, three potato, four.
> Five potato, six potato, seven potato, more.
>
>
I'm rubber and you're glue.
Whatever you say bounces off of me
and sticks to you.
I could always arrange this one so that the *other* kid was the glue.
Harlan Messinger
: This is a `dipping' rhyme or `dip', a word which is now standard UK
: children's nomenclature but originated no earlier than 1940. The book
: by Iona and Peter Opie, `Children's Games in Street and Playground',
: Oxford, has 30+ pages of them.
: They describe `Eeny, meeny, miney, mo, . .' as 80 years old in 1969.
: They also give many variants starting `Eeny, meeny, macca, racca, .';
: several from the US in the 19th century, eg:
: `Eeny, meeny, tipty, te,
: Teena, dinah, domine,
: Hocca, proach, domma, noach,
: Hi, pon, tus.' (Philadelphia, 1855);
Fascinating. Some cartoon when I was a kid ('60s) (I think it was Dodo,
The Kid from Outer Space) had a magically powered character whose
incantation went "Hokie, Pokie, Dominokie!" Obviously meant to come from
Hocus Pocus, but also appears to resemble the third line of the above
Eeny Meeny rendition.
: and a Hungarian version from `Zeitschrift fur deutsche Mythologie',
: vol. ii, 1855, p218:
: `Engete pengete zukate me
: Abri fabri domine
: Enx penx
: Du bist drauss.',
Though the language shifts intriguingly from (Hungarian? I know at some
point the "pengo" was the unit of currency there. One pengo? Is a zukate
a ducat?) to pseudo-Latin to Magyar-Latin repetition of the Engete
Pengete motiv, to pure German.
As long as we're doing other languages, we learned the following in
elementary school Spanish class:
Pin mari'n de don Pingue,
Cu'cara, ma'cara, titi rifue'.
Randall C. Poe
|> : Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
|>
|> Sure:
|>
|> One potato, two potato, three potato, four.
|> Five potato, six potato, seven potato, more.
|>
I should clarify. Are there any counting rhymes which are a little more
pseudo-random or less predictable in their outcome?
Robert Bryan Lipton
Eeny Meenie Miny Mo
Catch a tiger by the toe.
If he hollers, let him go.
My mother told me to pick this one.
Out goes Y O U.
Red, White and Blue.
Bob
chab...@vms1.bham.ac.uk
Eenie meenie miny mo
Catch a nigger by the toe
When he's done
Wipe his bum
Eenie meenie miny mo
Other dipping rhymes that I remember:
Eenie meenie macaracka
Rah Rah dumaracka
Chick-a-pop
A lollipop
A rah rah push
(used by the `grown-up' kids at school - those who were 10 or 11)
Dip dip dip
My blue ship
Sailing on the water
Like a cup and saucer
Out goes Y O U
(used by the classes in the infants part of the school - 5-7)
Isn't it amazing that these things stick in my mind after so long, yet
apparently more important things, like where I left my car in the
airport carpark when I went on holiday, my age and name, take *real*
effort to recall.
Tony Chabot
Paul Tholfsen
And the version I learned, as a little kid during WW2 was:
Eeny Meenie Miny Mo
Catch a Hitler by the toe
If he hollers, make him say
I give up to the USA.
A somewhat related rhyme, to the tune of Whistle while you work was:
Whistle while you work
Hitler is a jerk
Mussolini is a meanie
And the Japs are worse.
Jill Lundquist
Larry Krakauer <lar...@kronos.com> wrote:
>In article <3d7ifs$m...@qualcomm.com>,
>Jill Lundquist <ji...@baloo.qualcomm.com> wrote:
>>I think the second meaning makes more sense, especially
>>considering how nonstandard it is to use "go" for "say."
>
>It's not only nonstandard, I thought it was of extremely recent
>vintage. I NEVER recall hearing "go" to mean "say" before about
>ten years ago, and when I first heard it from some high-school students,
>I didn't know what they were saying. Jill must be a LOT younger than
>I to have heard this as a child, or perhaps it's been around longer
>than I realize.
I don't know how old you think I am :-), but maybe it's a regional
usage. I was born in 1969 in the upper peninsula of Michigan; my
family moved to Colorado in 1976. I think I picked up "go" for
"say" in Michigan, but it's widely used in Colorado as well.
I read a Peanuts cartoon many years ago in which Lucy was telling a
long story that included a lot of "and so he goes, '...'"
constructions. Charlie Brown, in the last frame, lamented,
"Whatever happened to the word 'said'?" I wish I knew the date on
that cartoon. I think I read it in a book, which means it was
already old when I read it.
Setting followups only to alt.usage.english; I don't think this is
relevant to alt.folklore.urban any more.
--
--------------
Jill Lundquist ji...@qualcomm.com DoD #882
When hell freezes over, grab the ice skates.
Margaret A. Megann
Eenie meenie
ekka bekka
Ar ay
domineka
chika pahka
lala pahka
oom
boom
PUSH
At which point, you either pick the child you're pointing to on
_PUSH_ <or> _push_ off and pick another. I guess that's what meant by
psuedo-random.
Adele
Ken Moore
ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu "Randall C. Poe" writes:
>I should clarify. Are there any counting rhymes which are a little more
>pseudo-random or less predictable in their outcome?
The problem (very important to some children) of fairness is treated on
pages 57 to 61 of the Opies' book. The usual method is for the child
in charge of the dip to ask one of the others for a word or number
which controls, in some complicated manner, the conclusion of the
round. Because this gives the responder the opportunity to do some
quick arithmatic and manipulate the outcome in his or her favour, the
most sophisticated method asks a question to which the responder can
give only one answer, which is nevertheless presumed to be unknown to
the questioner beforehand.
Dipper (pointing to Eachie, peachie, pear, plum,
others in succession): When does your birthday come?
Child pointed at: Fourteenth of December
Dipper (pointing on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13,
each number or letter): 14, D-E-C-E-M-B-E-R. You are out.
Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
Derek Tearne
T. Bruce Tober <Octob...@crecon.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <1994Dec22.1...@ultb.isc.rit.edu>
> vjr...@ultb.isc.rit.edu "V.J. Robinson " writes:
>
>> friends said "tiger," and a few used "nigger" quite unselfconsciously.
>> This was on the south side of Chicago in the 50's and 60's.
>
I learned the rhyme with the word nigger too. And used it quite
unselfconsciously as neither I, nor any of my friends, had the
faintest idea what a 'nigger' was. I think we assumed that it was
some sort of furry mythical beast a bit like a large ferret.
>As soon as my mother heard me use the word nigger she had a fit. "You
>should never use that word. All people are the same, jews, blacks,
>chinese, whatever. You should never use bad names for them," or words
>to that effect.
Just recently I heard my mother say that rhyme again. It seems to
have changed slightly in the intervening years since my youth as
she said:
"Eanie Meanie Miny Moe,
Catch a nigger by the toe,
Ooops I can't say that these days can I?".
Must be progress or something.
Derek "Funny, it doesn't seem to rhyme as well as it used to" Tearne
--
Derek Tearne. de...@fujitsu.co.nz
Some of the more environmentally aware dinosaurs were worried about the
consequences of an accident with the new Iridium enriched fusion reactor.
"If it goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive..." they said.
T. Bruce Tober
SI...@cuvmc.ais.columbia.edu "Charlie Mitchell" writes:
> In article <3da91t$n...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
> ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk (K. Edgcombe) writes:
>
> >>
> >It would shed a bit more light on this question (do we really want to?)
Agreed.
> >if people gave approximate dates. In England around 1950 it was certainly
> >"nigger". Do any of the "alternative" versions go back before the mid-sixties
As it was in the States.
> >(which I think is roughly when the word "nigger" became thoroughly
> >unacceptable)?
Yes, relating back to the annecdote I told a couple of days ago in
this thread, that incident took place sometime between 1950 and 1952.
> >It seems very likely that the "niggard" version is simply an attempt to
> >clean up the original; however, "tiger" might be older - or just a better
Agreed. I've never heard it till this thread, but then, I've never
heard any of the alternatives other than "tiger"
> >clean-up attempt, since it is not such an obscure word.
tbt
Tony Sweeney
>
>What is the etymology/origins of the counting song "Eenie, Meeny, Miney, Moe"?
>Are there concealed racial slurs, history lessons, or other oddities to be
>found in this innocuous piece of dogerrel?
No. It simply means "one, two, three, four", in some one of the Celtic
languages (I want to say Welsh, but I'm not sure; that might be
hickory dickory dock). The "catch a nigger by the toe" part of the
rhyme is hardly concealed or innocuous though.
>
>Also, is there a linguistics/etymology newsgroup out there, or is this it?
Try alt.usage.english (note the cross-post)
>
>(I've checked some of those threads here, and nobody seems to be crossposting
>to one...)
Tony.
--
Tony Sweeney, Network Hack |"Valuing the vengeance which you treasure,
Anchor House, 15-19 Britten St, | I've redefined the meaning of vendetta"
Chelsea, London SW3 3TY | "I should have known better."
swe...@ingres.com | "154" -- Wire.
Mike Czaplinski
>And the version I learned, as a little kid during WW2 was:
>
>Eeny Meenie Miny Mo
>Catch a Hitler by the toe
>If he hollers, make him say
>I give up to the USA.
>
>A somewhat related rhyme, to the tune of Whistle while you work was:
>
>Whistle while you work
>Hitler is a jerk
>Mussolini is a meanie
>And the Japs are worse.
My dad (who was ages 5-11 during WWII) taught the last two lines to me as:
"Mussolini is a weenie"
"And Tojo is much worse".
Which makes the leitmotif of ad homenim (sp?) attacks against the Axis leaders
more clear. Regional difference, perhaps (Dad is from Northern NJ, USA)?
Mike "Counterpoint the Underlying metaphor...death's too good for 'im"
Czaplinski
m...@nsscmail.att.com
Jesse T Sheidlower
Lundquist) wrote:
> >>I think the second meaning makes more sense, especially
> >>considering how nonstandard it is to use "go" for "say."
> >
> >It's not only nonstandard, I thought it was of extremely recent
> >vintage. I NEVER recall hearing "go" to mean "say" before about
> >ten years ago, and when I first heard it from some high-school students,
> >I didn't know what they were saying. Jill must be a LOT younger than
> >I to have heard this as a child, or perhaps it's been around longer
> >than I realize.
>
> I don't know how old you think I am :-), but maybe it's a regional
> usage. I was born in 1969 in the upper peninsula of Michigan; my
> family moved to Colorado in 1976. I think I picked up "go" for
> "say" in Michigan, but it's widely used in Colorado as well.
>
In the specific sense 'to say', the earliest example known to
lexicographers is from 1942, quoted in the _Random House Historical
Dictionary of American Slang,_ s.v. go, v., 9.
There is an additional sense 'to utter (an inarticulate sound)', as in "I
took one look at him and went 'arrgh!'", often confused or conflated with
the 'to say' sense. This sense is cited in, for instance, the OED
Additions Series vol. 2, which quotes Dickens among others, but again this
sense is only used with sounds; it should not imply that its use
introducing reported speech is very old.
Jesse Sheidlower
Random House Reference
<jes...@panix.com>
T. Bruce Tober
gab...@oregon.uoregon.edu "Gretchen Adams Bond" writes:
> I remembered it as "catch a nickel by the toe." And yes, my sister also
> remembers it that way...semantic fading? clean-up attempt? Why were we too
> dense to question the presence of toes on a nickel? "Sis" says: "The whole
Should there have been a smiley after the question or did you never
think perhaps it means to catch a nickel between the toes of your
feet. "-}
> thing sounded like nonsense. I just thought it was more of the same."
>
> This would be in the linguistic mutation capital of America: Rhode Island circa
> early 1960's.
You mean it isn't still? What's replaced it? Surely not NJ????
tbt
Mark Brader
> > family moved to Colorado in 1976. I think I picked up "go" for
> > "say" in Michigan, but it's widely used in Colorado as well.
>
> pervasive "thing" here as well.
Some years ago (maybe around 1980-85), Charles Schulz -- who lives in
California -- wrote a "Peanuts" strip in which one of the characters
recounted a conversation she had heard or been involved in, using the
word "go" throughout, as in "And then she goes, 'No, I won't.'"
Reading the strip here in Ontario, I didn't notice anything marked about
the usage, until the last panel where Charlie Brown turned to the readers
and asked: "What ever happened to the word 'said'?"
--
Mark Brader "To a security officer the ideal world was one where nobody
m...@sq.com talked to anyone else. ...[But] of course ... such a world
SoftQuad Inc. rarely did anything worth securing in the first place."
Toronto -- Tom Clancy, "The Cardinal of the Kremlin"
This article is in the public domain.
Pascal MacProgrammer
>
>What is the etymology/origins of the counting song "Eenie, Meeny, Miney, Moe"?
>Are there concealed racial slurs, history lessons, or other oddities to be
>found in this innocuous piece of dogerrel?
No -- no racial slurs there, but a lot of people mispronounce it to
make it sound like one. The word "niggard" is synonymous with "miser",
"tightwad", etc. Certainly someone who would rather not part with $50
merely for yelling about being caught by the toe.
Not so very long ago, swe...@ingres.com (Tony Sweeney) said...
>
>No. It simply means "one, two, three, four", in some one of the Celtic
>languages (I want to say Welsh, but I'm not sure; that might be
>hickory dickory dock). The "catch a nigger by the toe" part of the
>rhyme is hardly concealed or innocuous though.
Thank you for misquoting the rhyme in the manner I alluded to.
--
==----= Steve MacGregor
([.] [.]) Phoenix, AZ
--------------------------oOOo--(_)--oOOo--------------------------------
Susan C. Mitchell
: >
: >It seems to me that "misquoting" is the wrong term here. The way I
: >learned the rhyme was "nigger" and I would guess that is true for
: >many. The connotation of miserly was never conveyed (or construed?).
: >That I learned the version I did may reflect my limited vocabulary at
: >the time, but I think few five year olds know the word "niggerd".
: >
: >
: >The "cleaned up" or, if you prefer, pc version of the rhyme
: >substituted "monkey" for "nigger". I'll probably teach my sons
: >to say "catch a miser by the toe".
: i learned it as "tiger."
So did I, in the 60s. Years later, I used the words
"eenie-meenie-miney-moe" in front of my mother, and was surprised when
she said "That's racist" -- I had never heard the "Catch a nigger"
version, the one she (born in 1924) had grown up with.
Think globally, act locally.
Susan
--
===========================================================================
"We, the people, are not free. Our democracy is but a name. We vote?
What does that mean? We choose between Tweedledum and Tweedledee."
-- Helen Keller
Susan C. Mitchell
: >
: >: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
: >: Catch a tiger by his toe.
: >: If he hollers, let him go,
: >: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe.
: >
: this is how i learned it, excpet for the last line, which is "out goes y-o-u."
I always thought the last line was (delivered in exactly the same
simplistic rhythm as the rest of the verse, with a beat for each word),
"My-mother-said-to-pick-the-very-best-one-and-you-are-not-IT."
Ann Stewart
Moe, and Jack. I guess it doesn't qualify as urban folklore,
though, because we lived in the country at the time.
Martin Schafer
>>: I know it as:
>>
>>: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
>>: Catch a tiger by his toe.
>>: If he hollers, let him go,
>>: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe.
>>
>this is how i learned it, excpet for the last line, which is "out goes y-o-u."
>
I learned it as
Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
Catch a tiger by the toe.
If he hollers, let him go.
My mother says to pick this one, and out goes he
with a dirty dishrag on his knee.
Martin
Mark A. Stevens MD
: The "Miney" bug in the first line of the English version is the reason
: for the previous failure of entomologic analysis.
Doesn't "entomologic analysis" HAVE to have bugs? :)
--
Mark A. Stevens, M.D. Assistant Professor of Psychiatry
University of Texas Medical Branch | Mail: mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu
Galveston, TX 77555-0428 | Phone: (409) 772-3474
Mark A. Stevens MD
: A somewhat related rhyme, to the tune of Whistle while you work was:
: Whistle while you work
: Hitler is a jerk
: Mussolini is a meanie
: And the Japs are worse.
Growing up near USAF bases in Germany in the 60's we used to taunt the
locals (who would gladly have chimed in, if we'd only know...)
Whistle while you work
Hitler is a jerk
Mussolini bit his weenie
Now it doesn't work.
Mark A. Stevens MD
: Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
You mean, like:
Ink-a-bink,
bottle of ink.
Kissed a girl,
and now you stink!
?
Robert Mahoney
: "Mussolini is a weenie"
: "And Tojo is much worse".
I remember it as
"Mussolini pulled his weenie"
"And now it doesn't work"
Long Island,late 1960's.
Bob
Derek Tearne
Mark A. Stevens MD <mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu> wrote:
>Randall C. Poe (ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu) wrote:
>
>: Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
>
>You mean, like:
>
>Ink-a-bink,
>bottle of ink.
>Kissed a girl,
>and now you stink!
Hmmmm, interesting.
That rhyme really does beg the question ...
.... don't you think.
Derek "Never had a problem with the way girls smell" Tearne
Wayne W. McDougall
> Susan C. Mudgett (s...@harvee.billerica.ma.us) wrote:
> : >: I know it as:
> : >
> : >: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
> : >: Catch a tiger by his toe.
> : >: If he hollers, let him go,
> : >: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe.
> : >
> : this is how i learned it, excpet for the last line, which is "out goes y-o-
>
> I always thought the last line was (delivered in exactly the same
> simplistic rhythm as the rest of the verse, with a beat for each word),
> "My-mother-said-to-pick-the-very-best-one-and-you-are-not-IT."
I first heard it as "nigger" (without knowing what a nigger was. In a
primary school book of music, I read:
Eenmy, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
Catch a tiger by the toe.
If he hollers, make him pay,
Fifty dollars every day.
When my sister (5 years younger) went to primary school, she learnt:
My mother said to pick the very best one
But this one had to go to the dental nurse
So I choose this ONE.
She also learnt:
Eeeny Meeny Mackra Racka Rear Rye Dolly Packa Chicka Poppa Lolly Poppa
Ommm, Pomm, PUSH (and the person pushed is OUT, repeat until one person is
left and that person is IT).
This should be rattled off very quickly. It has the virtue of being FAST.
(although as a process of elimination, rather than selection, it needs to be).
Thinking back, we spent more time deciding who was going to be IT than
playing....
ObUl: Snowflakes have been known to reach 17" (41.479915cm) in diameter.
--
Wayne McDougall, son of dead, white, | Computer, commence imminent collapse
Europeans and keeper of the list of | of the Net, Code 1, 1A 2B 3KIBO
shows better than Star Trek(TM) | Destruct Zero Zero Zero Destruct
Derek Tearne
How did you select the next candidate for Sunday roast?
Derek "Sorry jack, we need all the others for the picking rhyme" Tearne
Grant Callaghan
gra...@crash.cts.com ;-[>>>
KKKatie
mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu "Mark A. Stevens MD" writes:
> Whistle while you work
> Hitler is a jerk
> Mussolini bit his weenie
> Now it doesn't work.
We were much more innocent in my young days
Whistle while you work
Hitler is a jerk
He's half balmy, so's his army
Whistle while you work
Or the WW2 classic - to the tune of "Colonel Bogey"
Hitler has only got one ball
Goering has hardly any at all
Himmler, has something similar
But Goebels has no balls at all
BTW years ago I heard a song on the TV in a programme about the clown
Joey Grimaldi which included a song about Napoleon and the allegation
that he only had one "codling". Anyone know any more about this ???
Kate
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine and not my employer's
Just a minute I'm self-employed, who the hell do these opinions
belong to ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davies
(deletions)...
>It's not only nonstandard, I thought it was of extremely recent
>vintage. I NEVER recall hearing "go" to mean "say" before about
>ten years ago, and when I first heard it from some high-school students,
>I didn't know what they were saying. Jill must be a LOT younger than
>I to have heard this as a child, or perhaps it's been around longer
>than I realize.
Yes. It was pretty standard kids' usage in the English midlands in
the late 1940s. (Am I the oldest person posting to this group?)
Mostly used in the historical present tense, which
in the accent of those parts sounds more like "he guz". I'd be
very interested to hear how and when the usage arose, and whether it
has appeared in print before the present decade.
The big Oxford has 15 pages devoted to "go" and its verb phrases, with
nearly 100 definitions. The nearest it comes to this usage is in
"as the story goes" or "as the old song goes". There are late 19th
and early 20th Century citations for gambling phrases, like "Go 6 No
Trumps: or "I'll go 4". Partridge's Dictionary of slang & unconventional
English doesn't give the usage either.
It is clearly common usage in Singapore. A young writer here,
David Fuhrman-Lim, published a novel ("Sniffing the Equator") not
long ago, supposedly narrated by a young Singaporean woman who uses
"go" for "say" throughout.
John Davies Tel: (+65) 473 1111
British Council Fax: (+65) 472 1010
30 Napier Road
Singapore 1024
Wayne W. McDougall
> In article <3ds3lj$g...@atlantis.utmb.edu>,
> Mark A. Stevens MD <mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu> wrote:
> >Randall C. Poe (ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu) wrote:
> >
> >: Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
> >
> >You mean, like:
> >
> >Ink-a-bink,
> >bottle of ink.
> >Kissed a girl,
> >and now you stink!
>
> Derek "Never had a problem with the way girls smell" Tearne
They use their noses, don't they?
Auckland City Council
A C C
Auckland City Council
You're not he!
(Repeat until one person left)
Ken Moore
Ka...@carterce.demon.co.uk "KKKatie" writes:
>Or the WW2 classic - to the tune of "Colonel Bogey"
>
>Hitler has only got one ball
>Goering has hardly any at all
>Himmler, has something similar
>But Goebels has no balls at all
Another version:
Hitler has only got one ball.
Goring has two but very small.
Himmler is very sim'lar,
But poor old Goballs got no balls at all.
(Spelling of names phonetic.)
--
Ken Moore (K...@hpsl.demon.co.uk)
Charles Martin
> Mike Czaplinski (m...@nsscmail.southplainfieldnj.ncr.com) wrote:
>
> : "Mussolini is a weenie"
> : "And Tojo is much worse".
>
> I remember it as
> "Mussolini pulled his weenie"
> "And now it doesn't work"
Mussolini bit his weenie / now it doesn't squirt.
^^^ ^^^^^^
- Sag Harbor, Long Island
Heard at a summer camp
-- A bit more evocative, n'est-ce pas?
o--------=| Charles Martin |=--o
Susan C. Mitchell
: Randall C. Poe (ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu) wrote:
: : Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
: You mean, like:
: Ink-a-bink,
: bottle of ink.
: Kissed a girl,
: and now you stink!
: ?
My mother and your mother were hanging out clothes,
My mother punched your mother right in the nose.
What color was the blood?
{"Red." We weren't very imaginative.}
R-E-D spells red and you are not it!
Manassas, Virginia, c. 1967.
Susan C. Mitchell
: : A somewhat related rhyme, to the tune of Whistle while you work was:
: : Whistle while you work
: : Hitler is a jerk
: : Mussolini is a meanie
: : And the Japs are worse.
: Growing up near USAF bases in Germany in the 60's we used to taunt the
: locals (who would gladly have chimed in, if we'd only know...)
: Whistle while you work
: Hitler is a jerk
: Mussolini bit his weenie
: Now it doesn't work.
Marcia and Jon Pankake {*I* didn't make that name up!), in _The Prairie
Home Companion Songbook_, give the last line as "Just to watch it squirt."
Paul J. Kriha
> Mark A. Stevens MD <mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu> wrote:
> >
> >Ink-a-bink,
^^^^^^^^^
> >bottle of ink.
> >Kissed a girl,
> >and now you stink!
..plus refer to earlier contributions on aue listing
rhymes with pig-latin words like "faber" "domino" etc...
(they have gone down the plug hole on my newsreader;
I can't include them here, sorry).
These enigmatic counting rhymes look very interesting
to me. They exhibit strange similarities across
completely foreign languages.
They often consist of two kind of verses.
They include some in the local lingo, these seem
to get modified often by childern to suit the fashion
of the moment. They also include strange 'gobbledygook'
'magic' words that have survived for centuries.
Perhaps they have done because they lost their original
meaning long time ago and now don't get subjected to
childerns' tinkering.
Here is a Czech rhyme I just copied from the cz newsgroup.
1.Enyky benyky kliky be', ? ? ? ?
a'br fa'br domine', ? ? ? ?
na koho to slovo padne, on whom the word falls,
ten musi' ji't z kola ven! he must drop out from the circle!
2.En ten tyky, ? ? ? ?
dva spaliky etc. etc.
3.Erce pelce do pekelce ? ? ? ?
etc. etc.
Pronounciation:
"e" as e in let or pen
both "i" and "y" as i in lip or tin
"o" as o in clock or box
"'" denotes length, not stress
What are the common roots to all these "eenie, meenie,
miney, moe", "enyky, benyky", "inky-binky", "ink-a-bink",
and "aber, faber, domine"?
Paul JK
Barbara Hamel
Even another go-round of the dreaded songs about masturbation has to be
preferable to this drivel.
My mother and your mother
Were hanging out the clothes.
My mother said your mother
raised an idiot.
Now go away.
Barbara "it's amazing how much less patient you get with the world after
reading a couple of Harlan Ellison stories... bless you, Harlan" Hamel
--
Barbara Hamel | How can one post to prove one's a lurker?
"decried NCFreenet wench" | Kinda like fucking for virginity isn't it?
ag...@freenet.carleton.ca | - Jason Heimbaugh
T. Bruce Tober
mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu "Mark A. Stevens MD" writes:
> Randall C. Poe (ra...@aplcorejhuapl.edu) wrote:
>
> : Are there any more pseudo-random counting rhymes?
>
> You mean, like:
>
> Ink-a-bink,
> bottle of ink.
> Kissed a girl,
> and now you stink!
Omigawd. Haven't heard that in yonks. My mother ocassionallly
mentioned it from when she was a kid. She died three years ago
somewhere in her 60s so we must be talking the 1930-40 period in New
York city. Thanks for the reminder.
tbt
Marek Konski
writes:
And here is a Polish one
Ene, due, rabe One?, two?, ????
Polkna,l bocian z^abe,.. A stork gulped down a frog...
Marek Konski Mar...@ix.netcom.com
Rockville, MD
young a t
Paul J. Kriha <kri...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
...
>These enigmatic counting rhymes look very interesting
>to me. They exhibit strange similarities across
>completely foreign languages.
>They often consist of two kind of verses.
>They include some in the local lingo, these seem
>to get modified often by childern to suit the fashion
>of the moment. They also include strange 'gobbledygook'
>'magic' words that have survived for centuries.
>Perhaps they have done because they lost their original
>meaning long time ago and now don't get subjected to
>childerns' tinkering.
...
>What are the common roots to all these "eenie, meenie,
>miney, moe", "enyky, benyky", "inky-binky", "ink-a-bink",
>and "aber, faber, domine"?
These counting rhymes are discussed on pp. 123 ff. of Karl Menninger's
"Number Words and Number Symbols" (M.I.T., 1969). He traces "eenie,
meenie, miney, moe" to the Norman invasion in 1066. The German version
is "eene deene ..." and is apparently also derived from "une, deux(ne)..."
Basically, the words are corruptions of straight counting, with rhyming
slang embellishments.
--
A.T.Young a...@mintaka.sdsu.edu
Astronomy Department
San Diego State University
San Diego CA 92182-0540
Drew Senko
>Susan C. Mudgett (s...@harvee.billerica.ma.us) wrote:
>: >: I know it as:
>: >
>: >: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe,
>: >: Catch a tiger by his toe.
>: >: If he hollers, let him go,
>: >: Eeny, Meeny, Miney, Moe.
>: >
>: this is how i learned it, excpet for the last line, which is "out goes y-o-u."
>I always thought the last line was (delivered in exactly the same
>simplistic rhythm as the rest of the verse, with a beat for each word),
>"My-mother-said-to-pick-the-very-best-one-and-you-are-not-IT."
We used all of this, but you tailored the last line in your favor, such
as:
My-mother-said-to-pick-the-very-best-one-and- <add words here until you
choose yourself, or disqualify someone else>
Sure it was cheating, but we had no standard phrase, so you could add
anything you liked, even something like:
My-mother-said-to-pick-one-of-my-cow-orkers-and-you-are-IT.
Drew "Just an example, we don't really use this at ork" Senko
Courtney Bailey
Cinderella
Dressed in yella'
Went upstairs to kiss a fella'
Made a mistake
And kissed a snake
How many doctors did it take?
(Counting commences from here until feet become hopelessly tangled in
jump rope.)
Courtney "If he hollers make him pay, $50 every day" Bailey
Mark Israel
}> Or the WW2 classic - to the tune of "Colonel Bogey"
}>
}> Hitler has only got one ball
}> Goering has hardly any at all
}> Himmler, has something similar
}> But Goebels has no balls at all
}
} Another version:
}
} Hitler has only got one ball.
} Goring has two but very small.
} Himmler is very sim'lar,
} But poor old Goballs got no balls at all.
}
} (Spelling of names phonetic.)
Wasn't there a version that began:
Hitler has only got one ball.
The other is in the Albert Hall.
? I can't remember the rest of it. I was only born in 1961, so my
memory of World War II is a bit hazy.
--
mis...@scripps.edu Mark Israel
Susan C. Mitchell
: Speaking of counting rhymes, I haven't seen this one yet:
: Cinderella
: Dressed in yella'
: Went upstairs to kiss a fella'
: Made a mistake
: And kissed a snake
: How many doctors did it take?
: (Counting commences from here until feet become hopelessly tangled in
: jump rope.)
The version I heard:
Cinderella, dressed in yella,
Went downtown to buy some mustard
On the way her girdle busted
How many people were disgusted?
(How many "here comes the bride" variants are there? I only know two.)
Mark Odegard
writes:
>(How many "here comes the bride" variants are there? I only know two.)
The one I remember from childhood (set to the march from *Lohengrin*)
goes:
Here comes the bride
Big fat and wide
Here comes the groom
Skinny as a broom
There is also the one set to The Battle Hymn of the Republic, the first
two lines of which go
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
We have tortured all the teachers and broken every rule
Another, set to Ta Rah Rah Boom-te-yay (learned when I was in a San
Francisco Bay Area public school, to explain the reference to the Bay):
Ta Rah Rah Boom-te-yay
There's no more school today,
The teachers gone and past away
We tossed her in the Bay.
SJ. Brewster
: Or the WW2 classic - to the tune of "Colonel Bogey"
: Hitler has only got one ball
: Goering has hardly any at all
: Himmler, has something similar
: But Goebels has no balls at all
Or, of course,
Hitler has only got one ball
The other is in the Albert Hall [or the Leeds Town Hall, etc, etc]
His mother
The dirty bugger
Cut off the other when Hitler was small
and so on.
--
Steve.B...@Bristol.ac.uk ! Room 4.9, Department of Mathematics,
-------------------------------! University of Bristol,
ISIHAC: R4 1225Sa, 1830Mo. ! City and County of Bristol, United Kingdom,
Evolution - the 1996 Eastercon ! BS8 1TW. Tel: 0117 928 7990.
Martin Cohen
>In article <1994Dec24.0...@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n742...@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Paul Tholfsen) writes:
>>And the version I learned, as a little kid during WW2 was:
>>
>>Eeny Meenie Miny Mo
>>Catch a Hitler by the toe
>>If he hollers, make him say
>>I give up to the USA.
>>
>>A somewhat related rhyme, to the tune of Whistle while you work was:
>>
>>Whistle while you work
>>Hitler is a jerk
>>Mussolini is a meanie
>>And the Japs are worse.
>
>My dad (who was ages 5-11 during WWII) taught the last two lines to me as:
>
>"Mussolini is a weenie"
>"And Tojo is much worse".
>
>more clear. Regional difference, perhaps (Dad is from Northern NJ, USA)?
>
>Mike "Counterpoint the Underlying metaphor...death's too good for 'im"
>Czaplinski
>m...@nsscmail.att.com
I recall the lines as being
"Mussolini pulled his weenie"
"Now it will not work"
--
Marty Cohen (mco...@nrtc.northrop.com) - Not the guy in Philly
This is my opinion and is probably not Northrop Grumman's!
Use this material of your own free will
Mark Israel
> ObPost: See if you can punctuate the following. I
> can almost hear Mark Israel chiding me for posting
> it here rather than to rec.puzzles.
Apropos of that, I got into a dispute with Mark Brader about the
wording of one of my sample puzzles. His sources, where I had had
(10 "had"s), had had (11 "had"s). (11 "had"s), however, seemed too
many to me, so I left it as is.
> that that is is that that is not is not is that it it is
The full form is:
that that is is that that is not is not that that is not is not that
that is is that it it is
--
mis...@scripps.edu Mark Israel
Ramli
ramli.
(in a frivolous mood, as always)
ObPost: See if you can punctuate the following. I
can almost hear Mark Israel chiding me for posting
it here rather than to rec.puzzles. But Santa didn't
give me any X-mas presents and so I am going to be
naughty.
Kai Henningsen
> meenie, miney, moe" to the Norman invasion in 1066. The German version
> is "eene deene ..." and is apparently also derived from "une, deux(ne)..."
Only it's *really* "Ene mene mu" ... :-)
Kai
--
Internet: k...@ms.maus.de, k...@khms.westfalen.de
Bang: major_backbone!{ms.maus.de!kh,khms.westfalen.de!kai}
## CrossPoint v3.02 ##
Phil Anderson
>That rhyme really does beg the question ...
>
> .... don't you think.
No, it _raises_ the question.
(Sorry, pet peeve time...)
--
----------------------------------------------
Phil Anderson *** ha...@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
----------------------------------------------
"No-one is equal to anyone else!"
Gregory Resch
> collected from a primary-school music teacher in Bellingham, Massachusetts
> about 1986 or so:
> imty mimty diggety fig
> delia, dahlia, dominig
> eye-cha pie-cha domin-eye-cha
> alm, palm, tusk
> alleka balleka boo [vowel like "ah" in 1st syllables]
> out goes Y O U
> said she got it from an Irish grandmother; counted kids (the sweet
> little lambs) with it.
> __Willy
> "yet it wer a voyce I knowit some how it wernt no stranger to me."
Yes, but it was spoken *only* with one of those new,
genetically-engineered tomatoes in hand!
Paul Giaccone
: In <D1qF8...@indirect.com> sus...@indirect.com (Susan C. Mitchell)
: writes:
: >(How many "here comes the bride" variants are there? I only know two.)
: The one I remember from childhood (set to the march from *Lohengrin*)
: goes:
: Here comes the bride
: Big fat and wide
: Here comes the groom
: Skinny as a broom
The one I remember goes:
Here comes the bride
All fat and wide
She jumped in the taxi
And fell out the other side
--
Paul Giaccone
k94...@kingston.ac.uk
WA...@news.delphi.com
Susan C. Mitchell
Distribution: world
Mark Odegard (mlo...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <D1qF8...@indirect.com> sus...@indirect.com (Susan C. Mitchell)
: writes:
: >(How many "here comes the bride" variants are there? I only know two.)
: The one I remember from childhood (set to the march from *Lohengrin*)
: goes:
: Here comes the bride
: Big fat and wide
: Here comes the groom
: Skinny as a broom
Here comes the bride
All dressed in pink
Open the window
And let out the stink
: There is also the one set to The Battle Hymn of the Republic, the first
: two lines of which go
: Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
: We have tortured all the teachers and broken every rule
Glory, glory, hallelujah
Teacher hit me with a ruler ...
Gregory Resch
If I'm not mistaken, that was the fault with those new genetically-
engineered tomatoes.
--
---------------------
Greg Resch |
re...@cpcug.org |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
David DeLaney
>a...@ucssun1.sdsu.edu wrote on 31.12.94 in <3e32j2$4...@gondor.sdsu.edu>:
>> meenie, miney, moe" to the Norman invasion in 1066. The German version
>> is "eene deene ..." and is apparently also derived from "une, deux(ne)..."
>
I have it on Good Book Authority that this was originally "Eenie meenie
tekel upharsin"...
Dave "Emoticon deleted to prevent large sharp object attacks" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO; VRbeableWIKTHLC
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / CanterSiegelKibozeBait!!
KKKatie
sus...@indirect.com "Susan C. Mitchell" writes:
> Glory, glory, hallelujah
> Teacher hit me with a ruler ...
Mother hit me with a walking stick
And now I'm both black and blue.
Isn't it amazing that these things appear to be transatlantic. I heard
the above in about 1964 long before I had much, if any, contact with
American culture.
Kate - nobly refraining from making the oxymoron comment - Carter
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine and not my employer's
Just a minute I'm self-employed, who the hell do these opinions
belong to ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Wright
I recall this even from elementary school. Two other annoying slang
substitutes for "say" are "like" and "all".
Then she's like, "red is my favorite color".
Then he's all, "Hey you have to see my red car".
Alan Leary
> KKKatie (Ka...@carterce.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : Or the WW2 classic - to the tune of "Colonel Bogey"
>
..... the one I remember is
Hitler has only one brass ball
Goering has two, but very small
Himmler, has something similar
But poor old Goebels, has no balls at all
William E. Newkirk
Susan C. Mitchell <sus...@indirect.com> wrote:
>
>Glory, glory, hallelujah
>Teacher hit me with a ruler ...
Gloooory, glory, hallelujah,
Teacher hit me with a ruler,
I met her at the door
with a loaded .44
and i never seen me teacher no more....
--
Bill Newkirk WB9IVR The Space Coast Amateur Technical Group
Melbourne, FL duty now for the future of amateur radio
Matthew Ward
d...@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Dan Wright) writes:
And then she "axed" him a question.
Ouch.
--
All things dull and ugly, | Matthew Ward
All creatures short and squat, | Ciber, Inc.
All things rude and nasty, | mw...@gtetel.com
The Lord God made the lot. | wa...@ix.netcom.com
Christine Gazak
>: The one I remember from childhood (set to the march from *Lohengrin*)
>: goes:
>: Here comes the bride
>: Big fat and wide
>: Here comes the groom
>: Skinny as a broom
>Here comes the bride
>All dressed in pink
>Open the window
>And let out the stink
Er, I guess the youth of Philadelphia were a little nastier in their songs
because we sang:
Here comes the bride
All fat and wide
Pull down her pants
and see what's inside
Steen "If I worked a little harder, I could make this tie in with several
other threads..."
Cindy Kandolf
>Then she's like, "red is my favorite color".
>Then he's all, "Hey you have to see my red car".
Sofa. He wants her to see his red sofa. If she's over the age of
twenty, chances are she's outgrown the backseat routine.
Just another helpful dating hint from:
-Cindy Kandolf, certified language mechanic, mamma flodnak
ci...@nvg.unit.no
Trondheim, Norway
We're looking for a little, bewildered girl.
00nzwi...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
This sounds like an ellipsis of the early childhood directive "play like," or
as we said it, "p'like."
Nyal Z. Williams
00nzwi...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
Clay Shirky
> > Then she's like, "red is my favorite color".
> > Then he's all, "Hey you have to see my red car".
> This sounds like an ellipsis of the early childhood directive "play like," or
> as we said it, "p'like."
I used to infuriate my math prof and amuse my classmates by begining all of
my chalkboard proofs with "Play like..."
Clay "Play like the sum of the squares of the sides of a right triangle are
equal to the square of the hypotenuse" Shirky
Andrew Welsh
: Dan Wright writes:
: >Then she's like, "red is my favorite color".
: >Then he's all, "Hey you have to see my red car".
:
: Sofa. He wants her to see his red sofa. If she's over the age of
: twenty, chances are she's outgrown the backseat routine.
Damn. I'm all confused now. As tomorrow the plan is to go to a nightclub in
Maidenhead reknowned for it's "youthful" clientele (ie. sixth-formers if you're
lucky), do I go out and buy a red car, or a red sofa in case I manage to fool
someone else who's gone there looking for "young people".
Andrew "No, not a paedophile really - it's the music and drugs I go for" Welsh
--
Andrew Welsh (and...@bnr.ca) - All views in this posting are mine alone
"Today we storm the barricades not to bring down capitalism, but
to get revenge" - Gavin Hills, The Face, Jan 1995
Tim Behrend
>
>In <1995Jan5.2...@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
>d...@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Dan Wright) writes:
>
>>
>>
>>I recall this even from elementary school. Two other annoying slang
>>substitutes for "say" are "like" and "all".
>>
>>Then she's like, "red is my favorite color".
>>Then he's all, "Hey you have to see my red car".
>>
>>
>
>And then she "axed" him a question.
In my dialect that's "assed", as in:
She assed him to take his close off and shut his eyes.
John Davies
Pearlman that may be of interest to others:
>Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 16:18:05 -0500
>From: "Alan M . Perlman" <75471...@CompuServe.COM>
>My guess is that it's an extension of the "go" that's used with
>animal sounds ("Pigs go 'oink'."), by way of an intermediate
>usage with explatives ("He told me and I go 'Wow!'."). Once
>established, it quickly became an in-group age-marker for anyone
>under 30[?].
>Alan
>75471...@compuserve.com
That derivation seems pretty plausible to me. OED cites similar usage
"Go bang, clatter, crack ... patter &c " dating from 1791 onwards
But as I said earlier:
>"Go" for "say" was pretty standard kids' usage in the English midlands
>in the late 1940s. Mostly used in the historical present tense, which
>in the accent of those parts sounds more like "he guz". I'd be
>very interested to hear how and when the usage arose, and whether it
>has appeared in print before the present decade.
>
>It is clearly common usage in Singapore. A young writer here,
>David Fuhrman-Lim, published a novel ("Sniffing the Equator") not
>long ago, supposedly narrated by a young Singaporean woman who uses
>"go" for "say" throughout.
I don't share the view that this is a usage restricted to the under-30s,
because I still hear it from older people when I visit my home town in UK.
Getting back to one of my original questions: has the use of "go" for
"say" appeared in *print* before this decade? Someone I spoke to thought
it might have appeared in the novel "Alfie" by Bill Naughton, but I
haven't been able to get hold of a copy. (There was also a film with
Michael Caine)
John Davies
V.J. Robinson
>
>I used to infuriate my math prof and amuse my classmates by begining all of
>my chalkboard proofs with "Play like..."
>
>Clay "Play like the sum of the squares of the sides of a right triangle are
>equal to the square of the hypotenuse" Shirky
Huh. Never hoid of it. I clearly remember a Chicago locution, though -
"Take and..." as in "Take and open your books to page 25." "Take and
turn off the radio." And, vividly recollected from high school, a
history teacher: "Take and take a piece of paper."
Vicki "So, like I'm 'Take and post a reply,' and he's all like 'hey,
like, take and take it easy!' and I'm like...." Robinson
--
Vicki Robinson "Nobody wants to be told their obvious."
Odd Physics Professor
"Canter & Siegel" _ Jason R. "Jason R. Heimbaugh" Heimbaugh
A.E. Brouwer
: a...@ucssun1.sdsu.edu wrote on 31.12.94 in <3e32j2$4...@gondor.sdsu.edu>:
:: meenie, miney, moe" to the Norman invasion in 1066. The German version
:: is "eene deene ..." and is apparently also derived from "une, deux(ne)..."
: Only it's *really* "Ene mene mu" ... :-)
Dutch: "Iene miene mutte ..."