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Pronunciation of debuted?
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James Silverton
May 27, 2012, 9:30:26 AM5/27/12
to
Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
"debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Extraneous "not" in Reply To.
"debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Extraneous "not" in Reply To.
LFS
May 27, 2012, 9:36:58 AM5/27/12
to
On 27/05/2012 14:30, James Silverton wrote:
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
I've only heard it pronounced "debued".
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
bert
May 27, 2012, 9:42:13 AM5/27/12
to not.jim....@verizon.net
On Sunday, May 27, 2012 2:30:26 PM UTC+1, James Silverton wrote:
> I came across the word "debuted" as a past tense use of debut.
> Has anyone firm opinions about pronunciation ... ?
> I came across the word "debuted" as a past tense use of debut.
My instinct would be for day-bew-tayed.
--
Sproz
May 27, 2012, 10:42:30 AM5/27/12
to
I would say /'deIbjud/ ("day-bewed"). I've also heard /deI'bu:d/, I
think. I can't see the justification for pronouncing the "t".
Mark
tony cooper
May 27, 2012, 10:46:02 AM5/27/12
to
On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
<jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>"debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
I have heard it as "day-byud" with "byud" rhyming with "rude".
<jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>"debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
It's not a word I'd ever speak, though.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Don Phillipson
May 27, 2012, 10:53:37 AM5/27/12
to
"James Silverton" <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me...
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
> as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal use, arising
> from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb with an acute
> accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted" from 1830. I find
> myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted" (omitting the accent
> as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about pronunciation since the
> OED does not give one?
"Debut" as a verb is no longer a novelty (e.g. has been used for decades
about actors making their first professional performance.) When new,
it would have been called by many a barbarism (because unfamiliar and
redundant, i.e. duplicating existing current verbs.) This recently tainted
status explains why no authority proffers a standard pronunciation
for a non-standard word.
A second reason may be unconscious uncertainty whether new
verbs ought to be regular (even if they sound bad) or irregular.
This uncertainty may be detected behind old and familiar verbs
such as cast (and broadcast, forecast, etc.) The verb cast has
been recognized as irregular for centuries in that its past forms
are cast, the same as its present forms. But increasingly many
ill-educated speakers make the verb regular, thus say
I casted my fly
They broadcasted 5,000 commercials
and so on.
We cannot yet forecast whether this regularization of the old verb
will displace its historic form. Stephen Pinker suggested in 1994
(in The Language Instinct) that making irregular verbs wrongly
regular is a normal temporary stage in learning English as a
mother tongue. If he were right, the phenomenon in adults adds
strength to critics who believe the culture is infantilizing itself.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
news:jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me...
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
> as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal use, arising
> from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb with an acute
> accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted" from 1830. I find
> myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted" (omitting the accent
> as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about pronunciation since the
> OED does not give one?
about actors making their first professional performance.) When new,
it would have been called by many a barbarism (because unfamiliar and
redundant, i.e. duplicating existing current verbs.) This recently tainted
status explains why no authority proffers a standard pronunciation
for a non-standard word.
A second reason may be unconscious uncertainty whether new
verbs ought to be regular (even if they sound bad) or irregular.
This uncertainty may be detected behind old and familiar verbs
such as cast (and broadcast, forecast, etc.) The verb cast has
been recognized as irregular for centuries in that its past forms
are cast, the same as its present forms. But increasingly many
ill-educated speakers make the verb regular, thus say
I casted my fly
They broadcasted 5,000 commercials
and so on.
We cannot yet forecast whether this regularization of the old verb
will displace its historic form. Stephen Pinker suggested in 1994
(in The Language Instinct) that making irregular verbs wrongly
regular is a normal temporary stage in learning English as a
mother tongue. If he were right, the phenomenon in adults adds
strength to critics who believe the culture is infantilizing itself.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
May 27, 2012, 11:57:16 AM5/27/12
to
I'd be inclined to pronounce the t. I'm not sure it's relevant, but the
t in French début is silent (unless followed by a word beginning with a
vowel), but in derived forms like débuté, and, of course, débutante, it
is pronounced.
James asked for "firm opinions" -- a bit optimistic, I would think.
--
athel
Steve Hayes
May 27, 2012, 1:52:11 PM5/27/12
to
>Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>"debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
I've never had occasion to pronounce it, but if I did I would probably
>"debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
pronounce it "dee butted".
Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Lanarcam
May 27, 2012, 1:54:35 PM5/27/12
to
Le 27/05/2012 19:52, Steve Hayes a écrit :
> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
> <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>>from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
> I've never had occasion to pronounce it, but if I did I would probably
> pronounce it "dee butted".
>
> Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
>
>
It looks like a painful operation, innit?
> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
> <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>>from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
> I've never had occasion to pronounce it, but if I did I would probably
> pronounce it "dee butted".
>
> Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
>
>
David Dyer-Bennet
May 27, 2012, 2:09:46 PM5/27/12
to
James Silverton <jim.si...@verizon.net> writes:
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun
> and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using
> "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of
> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
It's not too uncommon a word in my bubble. Tends to be pronounced
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun
> and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using
> "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of
> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
roughly "day-biewed" (second part rhymes with "viewed"). The first
vowel gets suppressed some towards a schwa sometimes here in the
midwest.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
Garrett Wollman
May 27, 2012, 2:14:53 PM5/27/12
to
In article <jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me>,
say it /'dEb jud/. Never heard anyone pronounce the <t>.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
James Silverton <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote:
>from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
I would say /deI'bju:d/. My memory says I've heard SEEngE speakers
>from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
say it /'dEb jud/. Never heard anyone pronounce the <t>.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
David Dyer-Bennet
May 27, 2012, 2:15:13 PM5/27/12
to
"Don Phillipson" <e9...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> writes:
> "James Silverton" <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
>> as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal use, arising
>> from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb with an acute
>> accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted" from 1830. I find
>> myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted" (omitting the accent
>> as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about pronunciation since the
>> OED does not give one?
>
> "Debut" as a verb is no longer a novelty (e.g. has been used for decades
> about actors making their first professional performance.) When new,
> it would have been called by many a barbarism (because unfamiliar and
> redundant, i.e. duplicating existing current verbs.) This recently tainted
> status explains why no authority proffers a standard pronunciation
> for a non-standard word.
Does the related nound "debutante" predate or post-date the use for
> "James Silverton" <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
>> as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal use, arising
>> from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb with an acute
>> accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted" from 1830. I find
>> myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted" (omitting the accent
>> as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about pronunciation since the
>> OED does not give one?
>
> "Debut" as a verb is no longer a novelty (e.g. has been used for decades
> about actors making their first professional performance.) When new,
> it would have been called by many a barbarism (because unfamiliar and
> redundant, i.e. duplicating existing current verbs.) This recently tainted
> status explains why no authority proffers a standard pronunciation
> for a non-standard word.
actors? Oh, that's amusing; the first OED citation (to 1801) appears to
be referring to an actress called back to the stage after a play. But
the next citation, to 1817, refers to "the ten thousand debutantes of
London Society".
OED says "debut" means "Entry into society; first appearance in public
of an actor...", with citations back to 1751 and describes it as "French
vbl. n."
Christian Weisgerber
May 27, 2012, 2:05:31 PM5/27/12
to
James Silverton <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote:
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
Merriam-Webster:
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
debut (noun, verb): /'deI,bju/ or /,deI'bju/
Thus "debuted" is /'deI,bjud/ or /,deI'bjud/. Yes, that sounds
right.
The lack of a /t/ suggests that the English verb is more of a
backformation from the noun than a borrowing of French "débuter".
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Adrian Bailey
May 27, 2012, 4:31:42 PM5/27/12
to
people who are suggesting that one might pronounce the t are either daft or
are winding you up.
Adrian
James Silverton
May 27, 2012, 5:06:18 PM5/27/12
to
Fortunately, I can't see myself using the word very much or speaking it
at all.
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Stan Brown
May 27, 2012, 6:04:49 PM5/27/12
to
On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton wrote:
>
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain."
>
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
Present: day-byoo, day-byoos
Past: day-byood
--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com
Steve Hayes
May 27, 2012, 6:20:12 PM5/27/12
to
The first time I encountered it, I read it as "dee-butted", and puzzled over
it for a while, then realised that it was a verbing of "debut" and changed it
to "made his debut".
Peter Moylan
May 27, 2012, 6:50:33 PM5/27/12
to
(Although our TV critics generally say that a series has premiered. It's
the actors who debut. The critics have never taken the logical next step
of saying that a programme is "derniering this evening".)
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter Moylan
May 27, 2012, 6:57:36 PM5/27/12
to
David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> James Silverton <jim.si...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
>> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun
>> and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using
>> "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of
>> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
>> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
> It's not too uncommon a word in my bubble. Tends to be pronounced
> roughly "day-biewed" (second part rhymes with "viewed"). The first
> vowel gets suppressed some towards a schwa sometimes here in the
> midwest.
I've noticed an interesting irregularity in AusE in the use of the /j/
> James Silverton <jim.si...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
>> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun
>> and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using
>> "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of
>> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
>> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
> It's not too uncommon a word in my bubble. Tends to be pronounced
> roughly "day-biewed" (second part rhymes with "viewed"). The first
> vowel gets suppressed some towards a schwa sometimes here in the
> midwest.
in such words. "Debutante" /dEbjutOnt/ always has the /j/, but "debuted"
/debud/ almost never does. (Except possibly in South Australia.) While
writing this I also noticed that the two words have different first
vowels, even for those of us who are aware that they have the same vowel
in French.
R H Draney
May 27, 2012, 7:14:54 PM5/27/12
to
Adrian Bailey filted:
glide in the second syllable...your assignment is to find any clip posted to the
web before this date in which the word is pronounced like that, because I don't
think it can be done....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
>
>"James Silverton" <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>news:jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
>> as a past tense use of debut.
>
>"James Silverton" <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>news:jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
>> as a past tense use of debut.
>
>It's pronounced dayb-yood. (US: daybood) I've heard it often enough. Those
>people who are suggesting that one might pronounce the t are either daft or
>are winding you up.
Both you and Sproz claim that there's a pronunciation afoot without the vowel
>people who are suggesting that one might pronounce the t are either daft or
>are winding you up.
glide in the second syllable...your assignment is to find any clip posted to the
web before this date in which the word is pronounced like that, because I don't
think it can be done....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
JOF
May 27, 2012, 8:17:30 PM5/27/12
to
On Sun, 27 May 2012 19:52:11 +0200, Steve Hayes
<haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
><jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>"debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>>use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>>with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>>from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>>(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>>pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
>I've never had occasion to pronounce it, but if I did I would probably
>pronounce it "dee butted".
>
>Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
Disaster, hell! Killed 'er.
<haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
><jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>"debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>>use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>>with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>>from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>>(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>>pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
>I've never had occasion to pronounce it, but if I did I would probably
>pronounce it "dee butted".
>
>Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
--
John
Jared
May 27, 2012, 8:36:32 PM5/27/12
to
--
Jared
Robert Bannister
May 27, 2012, 9:34:16 PM5/27/12
to
On 27/05/12 9:30 PM, James Silverton wrote:
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
"day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other hand,
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
--
Robert Bannister
Jerry Friedman
May 27, 2012, 10:13:38 PM5/27/12
to
On May 27, 2:31 pm, "Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "James Silverton" <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote in message
"yoo" only after the dental consonants (the consonants in "dentals"),
and not all the time, and not all of us do that.
> I've heard it often enough. Those
> people who are suggesting that one might pronounce the t are either daft or
> are winding you up.
Or have never heard it.
--
Jerry Friedman pronounces "due" and "dew" the same as "do".
> "James Silverton" <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> > Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
> > as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal use, arising
> > from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb with an acute
> > accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted" from 1830. I find
> > myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted" (omitting the accent
> > as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about pronunciation since the
> > OED does not give one?
> > --
> > Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
>
> It's pronounced dayb-yood. (US: daybood)
It's day-BYOOD /deI'bjud/ in the U.S. We have "oo" where you have
> news:jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> > Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
> > as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal use, arising
> > from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb with an acute
> > accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted" from 1830. I find
> > myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted" (omitting the accent
> > as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about pronunciation since the
> > OED does not give one?
> > --
> > Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
>
> It's pronounced dayb-yood. (US: daybood)
"yoo" only after the dental consonants (the consonants in "dentals"),
and not all the time, and not all of us do that.
> I've heard it often enough. Those
> people who are suggesting that one might pronounce the t are either daft or
> are winding you up.
--
Jerry Friedman pronounces "due" and "dew" the same as "do".
Jerry Friedman
May 27, 2012, 10:36:21 PM5/27/12
to
> >"James Silverton" <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote in message
--
Jerry Friedman
> >news:jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me...
> >> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
> >> as a past tense use of debut.
>
> >It's pronounced dayb-yood. (US: daybood) I've heard it often enough. Those
> >people who are suggesting that one might pronounce the t are either daft or
> >are winding you up.
>
> Both you and Sproz claim that there's a pronunciation afoot without the vowel
> glide in the second syllable...your assignment is to find any clip posted to the
> web before this date in which the word is pronounced like that, because I don't
> think it can be done....r
Maybe from an Australian, judging by what Peter Moylan said.
> >> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
> >> as a past tense use of debut.
>
> >It's pronounced dayb-yood. (US: daybood) I've heard it often enough. Those
> >people who are suggesting that one might pronounce the t are either daft or
> >are winding you up.
>
> Both you and Sproz claim that there's a pronunciation afoot without the vowel
> glide in the second syllable...your assignment is to find any clip posted to the
> web before this date in which the word is pronounced like that, because I don't
> think it can be done....r
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
May 27, 2012, 10:34:29 PM5/27/12
to
On May 27, 8:13 pm, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 27, 2:31 pm, "Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "James Silverton" <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> > > Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
> > > as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal use, arising
> > > from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb with an acute
> > > accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted" from 1830. I find
> > > myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted" (omitting the accent
> > > as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about pronunciation since the
> > > OED does not give one?
> > > --
> > > Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
>
> > It's pronounced dayb-yood. (US: daybood)
>
> It's day-BYOOD /deI'bjud/ in the U.S. We have "oo" where you have
> "yoo" only after the dental consonants (the consonants in "dentals"),
And "z" as in "Zeus" and "zeugma", I guess. Oh, well.
> On May 27, 2:31 pm, "Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "James Silverton" <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:jpta9j$35c$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> > > Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word "debuted"
> > > as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal use, arising
> > > from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb with an acute
> > > accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted" from 1830. I find
> > > myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted" (omitting the accent
> > > as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about pronunciation since the
> > > OED does not give one?
> > > --
> > > Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
>
> > It's pronounced dayb-yood. (US: daybood)
>
> It's day-BYOOD /deI'bjud/ in the U.S. We have "oo" where you have
> "yoo" only after the dental consonants (the consonants in "dentals"),
> and not all the time, and not all of us do that.
...
--
Jerry Friedman
Jeffrey Turner
May 27, 2012, 11:02:33 PM5/27/12
to
--Jeff
annily
May 27, 2012, 11:15:52 PM5/27/12
to
On 28.05.12 08:27, Peter Moylan wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>> James Silverton<jim.si...@verizon.net> writes:
>>
>>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
>>> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun
>>> and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using
>>> "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of
>>> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
>>> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>>
>> It's not too uncommon a word in my bubble. Tends to be pronounced
>> roughly "day-biewed" (second part rhymes with "viewed"). The first
>> vowel gets suppressed some towards a schwa sometimes here in the
>> midwest.
>
> I've noticed an interesting irregularity in AusE in the use of the /j/
> in such words. "Debutante" /dEbjutOnt/ always has the /j/, but "debuted"
> /debud/ almost never does. (Except possibly in South Australia.)
Perhaps among the "toffy" SA crowd for the latter, but not for me. I go
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>> James Silverton<jim.si...@verizon.net> writes:
>>
>>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
>>> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun
>>> and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using
>>> "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of
>>> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
>>> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>>
>> It's not too uncommon a word in my bubble. Tends to be pronounced
>> roughly "day-biewed" (second part rhymes with "viewed"). The first
>> vowel gets suppressed some towards a schwa sometimes here in the
>> midwest.
>
> I've noticed an interesting irregularity in AusE in the use of the /j/
> in such words. "Debutante" /dEbjutOnt/ always has the /j/, but "debuted"
> /debud/ almost never does. (Except possibly in South Australia.)
with /debud/.
David Dyer-Bennet
May 27, 2012, 11:23:18 PM5/27/12
to
Peter Moylan
May 28, 2012, 1:44:15 AM5/28/12
to
JOF wrote:
> On Sun, 27 May 2012 19:52:11 +0200, Steve Hayes
> <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
>> <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>>> use, arising from the French "d�buter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> On Sun, 27 May 2012 19:52:11 +0200, Steve Hayes
> <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
>> <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>>> with an acute accent, as in "d�but". There is a quote using "debuted"
>> >from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>>> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>>> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>> I've never had occasion to pronounce it, but if I did I would probably
>> pronounce it "dee butted".
>>
>> Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
>
> Disaster, hell! Killed 'er.
>
She couldn't be rebutted?
>>> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>>> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>> I've never had occasion to pronounce it, but if I did I would probably
>> pronounce it "dee butted".
>>
>> Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
>
> Disaster, hell! Killed 'er.
>
Peter Moylan
May 28, 2012, 1:54:19 AM5/28/12
to
"debuted" [1], although it was used by an older generation and possibly
still survives in some quarters. Nowadays we think of the form with the
glide as an English pronunciation, so it's a surprise seeing it turn up
in the USA.
We still retain the glide in words like "imbued", "due", ... I'm looking
for a pattern here, but haven't yet found it.
[1] Actually, I don't think we ever had it in the case of "debut". We're
still conscious of its being an import from French, and French never has
a glide in an "u" sound.
Ian Noble
May 28, 2012, 3:08:49 AM5/28/12
to
>Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>"debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
day-byood
>(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
(In other words, the acute "e" is pronounced, the "t" is silent, and
there's no real stress on either syllable.)
In my own experience, it's not exactly uncommon to hear it without the
acute. Pronouncing the "t" is plain wrong, though - something only
done by someone who has first met it written rather than spoken.
Cheers - Ian
(BrE: Yorks., Hants.)
Steve Hayes
May 28, 2012, 5:18:12 AM5/28/12
to
On Mon, 28 May 2012 15:44:15 +1000, Peter Moylan
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>JOF wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 May 2012 19:52:11 +0200, Steve Hayes
>> <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
>>> <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>>>> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>JOF wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 May 2012 19:52:11 +0200, Steve Hayes
>> <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
>>> <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>>>> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>>> >from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>>>> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>>>> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>>> I've never had occasion to pronounce it, but if I did I would probably
>>> pronounce it "dee butted".
>>>
>>> Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
>>
>> Disaster, hell! Killed 'er.
>>
>She couldn't be rebutted?
Presumably not.
>>>> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>>>> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>>> I've never had occasion to pronounce it, but if I did I would probably
>>> pronounce it "dee butted".
>>>
>>> Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
>>
>> Disaster, hell! Killed 'er.
>>
>She couldn't be rebutted?
Stan Brown
May 28, 2012, 8:43:45 AM5/28/12
to
On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
>
> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
James Silverton
May 28, 2012, 10:12:45 AM5/28/12
to
On 5/28/2012 8:43 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>
> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>
I'd say that was normal pronunciation for me. Restaurants advertize
> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>
> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>
"valet parking" meaning that someone will take your car away and park it.
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Stan Brown
May 28, 2012, 11:45:22 AM5/28/12
to
On Mon, 28 May 2012 10:12:45 -0400, James Silverton wrote:
>
> On 5/28/2012 8:43 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
> >>
> >> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
> >> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
> >
> > Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
> > pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
> >
> I'd say that was normal pronunciation for me. Restaurants advertize
> "valet parking" meaning that someone will take your car away and park it.
I forgot about that use of "valet", and I agree that val-LAY is the
>
> On 5/28/2012 8:43 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
> >>
> >> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
> >> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
> >
> > Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
> > pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
> >
> I'd say that was normal pronunciation for me. Restaurants advertize
> "valet parking" meaning that someone will take your car away and park it.
normal pronunciation in that case.
LFS
May 28, 2012, 11:58:05 AM5/28/12
to
On 28/05/2012 16:45, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Mon, 28 May 2012 10:12:45 -0400, James Silverton wrote:
>>
>> On 5/28/2012 8:43 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
>>>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>>>
>>> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
>>> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>>>
>> I'd say that was normal pronunciation for me. Restaurants advertize
>> "valet parking" meaning that someone will take your car away and park it.
>
> I forgot about that use of "valet", and I agree that val-LAY is the
> normal pronunciation in that case.
>
I would have thought that was the most usual use of the word these days,
> On Mon, 28 May 2012 10:12:45 -0400, James Silverton wrote:
>>
>> On 5/28/2012 8:43 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
>>>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>>>
>>> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
>>> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>>>
>> I'd say that was normal pronunciation for me. Restaurants advertize
>> "valet parking" meaning that someone will take your car away and park it.
>
> I forgot about that use of "valet", and I agree that val-LAY is the
> normal pronunciation in that case.
>
apart from at the Palace where I guess valets are common.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
the Omrud
May 28, 2012, 12:03:48 PM5/28/12
to
--
David
Mike Barnes
May 28, 2012, 12:44:48 PM5/28/12
to
LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>:
Professional car cleaning is "valeting", with the "t" pronounced.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=car+valeting
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=car+valeting
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Garrett Wollman
May 28, 2012, 1:04:40 PM5/28/12
to
In article <f3l9TfuA...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,
When I moved to Boston, there was a big controversy over "police
details". I was having a great deal of difficulty understanding how
cleaning police cars could be so controversial, but apparently they
involved lots of overtime. Eventually I found out that the police
union contract requires a police officer to be detailed (hence "police
detail") to screw up traffic around construction sites, at time and a
half, rather than allowing the contractors to employ a civilian
flagger, like they do everywhere else. This had become something of a
scandal when police officers skipped court dates to work on (better
paying) construction details. Some senior cops were working 40 hours
a week or more on construction details, to pad their pensions.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>Professional car cleaning is "valeting", with the "t" pronounced.
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=car+valeting
Here that would be "detailing".
>Professional car cleaning is "valeting", with the "t" pronounced.
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=car+valeting
When I moved to Boston, there was a big controversy over "police
details". I was having a great deal of difficulty understanding how
cleaning police cars could be so controversial, but apparently they
involved lots of overtime. Eventually I found out that the police
union contract requires a police officer to be detailed (hence "police
detail") to screw up traffic around construction sites, at time and a
half, rather than allowing the contractors to employ a civilian
flagger, like they do everywhere else. This had become something of a
scandal when police officers skipped court dates to work on (better
paying) construction details. Some senior cops were working 40 hours
a week or more on construction details, to pad their pensions.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wol...@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Jerry Friedman
May 28, 2012, 1:11:34 PM5/28/12
to
On May 28, 1:08 am, Ian Noble <ipno...@killspam.o2.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
>
> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
>
> <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> >"debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> >use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> >with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> >from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> >(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> >pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
> day-byood
>
> (In other words, the acute "e" is pronounced, the "t" is silent, and
> there's no real stress on either syllable.)
...
> >Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> >"debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> >use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> >with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> >from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> >(omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> >pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
> day-byood
>
> (In other words, the acute "e" is pronounced, the "t" is silent, and
> there's no real stress on either syllable.)
This might be a good time to mention that, according to Prof. Lawler,
you have to indicate stress in giving English pronunciations, and I
completely agree. It seems particularly helpful for "debut(ed)",
where the stress is different in American and British English.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Barnes
May 28, 2012, 2:12:00 PM5/28/12
to
Garrett Wollman <wol...@bimajority.org>:
>In article <f3l9TfuA...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,
>Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>>Professional car cleaning is "valeting", with the "t" pronounced.
>>
>> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=car+valeting
>
>Here that would be "detailing".
We also have "detailing", but that's the next level up from "valeting".
>Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>>Professional car cleaning is "valeting", with the "t" pronounced.
>>
>> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=car+valeting
>
>Here that would be "detailing".
Mark Brader
May 28, 2012, 3:58:08 PM5/28/12
to
James Silverton:
--
Mark Brader "Hey, I don't want to control people's lives!
Toronto (If they did things right, I wouldn't have to.)"
m...@vex.net -- "Coach"
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut... Has anyone firm opinions
> about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
"day-BYOOD", with long OO as in boot. What else?
--
Mark Brader "Hey, I don't want to control people's lives!
Toronto (If they did things right, I wouldn't have to.)"
m...@vex.net -- "Coach"
Mark Brader
May 28, 2012, 4:01:33 PM5/28/12
to
Christian Weisgerber:
> The lack of a /t/ suggests that the English verb is more of a
> backformation from the noun than a borrowing of French "débuter".
Yes, except for "backformation". It's not a back-formation; it's
an ordinary verbing (more formally "conversion").
--
Mark Brader Twas unix and the C++
Toronto Did compile and load upon the vax:
m...@vex.net All Ritchie was the Kernighan,
And Lisp ran in GNU EMACS.
--Larry Colen (after Lewis Carroll)
> The lack of a /t/ suggests that the English verb is more of a
> backformation from the noun than a borrowing of French "débuter".
Yes, except for "backformation". It's not a back-formation; it's
an ordinary verbing (more formally "conversion").
--
Mark Brader Twas unix and the C++
Toronto Did compile and load upon the vax:
m...@vex.net All Ritchie was the Kernighan,
And Lisp ran in GNU EMACS.
--Larry Colen (after Lewis Carroll)
Mike L
May 28, 2012, 6:39:53 PM5/28/12
to
On Mon, 28 May 2012 08:50:33 +1000, Peter Moylan
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>LFS wrote:
>>
>The same here, and I've heard it spoken many times.
>
>(Although our TV critics generally say that a series has premiered. It's
>the actors who debut. The critics have never taken the logical next step
>of saying that a programme is "derniering this evening".)
It's as horrible as that. I say "...made her debut..." After all,
what's the mad rush?
--
Mike.
<inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>LFS wrote:
>> On 27/05/2012 14:30, James Silverton wrote:
>>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>>> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>>> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>>> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>>> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>>> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>>> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>>> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>>> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>>
>> I've only heard it pronounced "debued".
>>
>>
>The same here, and I've heard it spoken many times.
>
>(Although our TV critics generally say that a series has premiered. It's
>the actors who debut. The critics have never taken the logical next step
>of saying that a programme is "derniering this evening".)
It's as horrible as that. I say "...made her debut..." After all,
what's the mad rush?
--
Mike.
Mike L
May 28, 2012, 6:46:40 PM5/28/12
to
On Sun, 27 May 2012 19:34:29 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On May 27, 8:13 pm, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On May 27, 2:31 pm, "Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On May 27, 8:13 pm, Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On May 27, 2:31 pm, "Adrian Bailey" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > It's pronounced dayb-yood. (US: daybood)
>>
>> It's day-BYOOD /deI'bjud/ in the U.S. We have "oo" where you have
>> "yoo" only after the dental consonants (the consonants in "dentals"),
>
>And "z" as in "Zeus" and "zeugma", I guess. Oh, well.
That's a Greek tragedy.
>> > It's pronounced dayb-yood. (US: daybood)
>>
>> It's day-BYOOD /deI'bjud/ in the U.S. We have "oo" where you have
>> "yoo" only after the dental consonants (the consonants in "dentals"),
>
>And "z" as in "Zeus" and "zeugma", I guess. Oh, well.
>> and not all the time, and not all of us do that.
Mike.
Christian Weisgerber
May 28, 2012, 5:37:26 PM5/28/12
to
Mark Brader <m...@vex.net> wrote:
> > The lack of a /t/ suggests that the English verb is more of a
> > backformation from the noun than a borrowing of French "débuter".
>
> Yes, except for "backformation". It's not a back-formation; it's
> an ordinary verbing (more formally "conversion").
Right. Well, it depends where you draw the line, because in French
> > The lack of a /t/ suggests that the English verb is more of a
> > backformation from the noun than a borrowing of French "débuter".
>
> Yes, except for "backformation". It's not a back-formation; it's
> an ordinary verbing (more formally "conversion").
début is a deverbal noun from débuter...
The sequence is like this:
|------French-------|-------English------|
débuter > début > debut > to debut
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Stan Brown
May 28, 2012, 8:37:55 PM5/28/12
to
later following /Upstairs, Downstairs/ and of course /Downton Abbey/.
Peter Moylan
May 28, 2012, 9:02:21 PM5/28/12
to
Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article <f3l9TfuA...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,
> Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>> Professional car cleaning is "valeting", with the "t" pronounced.
>>
>> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=car+valeting
>
> Here that would be "detailing".
Detailing here is a lot more than cleaning. It means touching up the
> In article <f3l9TfuA...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,
> Mike Barnes <mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>> Professional car cleaning is "valeting", with the "t" pronounced.
>>
>> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=car+valeting
>
> Here that would be "detailing".
paint, fixing the trim, hiding the rust spots, etc. It's what car yards
do while preparing a second-hand car for sale.
Robert Bannister
May 28, 2012, 11:01:03 PM5/28/12
to
verbing a noun and creating a backformation from one? I get the
impression that "backformation" is more trendy.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 28, 2012, 11:06:46 PM5/28/12
to
with the noun as "day-boo" and the verb as "day-byoo". I had not noticed
a majority of Australians saying "nood", but leaving the "y" out is more
common in both England and Australia than with any other "nu" word and
may even be boosted by the jocular "in the nuddy".
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 28, 2012, 11:10:50 PM5/28/12
to
On 28/05/12 8:43 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>
> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>
No, because that simply is not true; I have never heard the noun
> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>
>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>
> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>
pronounced with a t, but perhaps in your country it is. The problem
comes possibly because (almost) nobody has a valet these days, and the
verb is mainly used with reference to primping up cars, a business that
has its own jargon.
--
Robert Bannister
Garrett Wollman
May 28, 2012, 11:11:11 PM5/28/12
to
In article <a2isff...@mid.individual.net>,
reanalyzes it as consisting of some other word Y -- not an etymon of X
-- plus some affix(es). For example, we say that "pea" is a
backformation from "pease": the etymologically attested singular is
"pease", and this was reanalyzed as a new noun "pea" /pi/ plus the
regular plural suffix /-z/. By contrast, when we derive "bean"
v.t. from "bean" n., there is no reanalysis.
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>But Mark raised an interesting point: what is the difference between
>verbing a noun and creating a backformation from one? I get the
>impression that "backformation" is more trendy.
A back-formation from some word X (whatever part of speech it is)
>But Mark raised an interesting point: what is the difference between
>verbing a noun and creating a backformation from one? I get the
>impression that "backformation" is more trendy.
reanalyzes it as consisting of some other word Y -- not an etymon of X
-- plus some affix(es). For example, we say that "pea" is a
backformation from "pease": the etymologically attested singular is
"pease", and this was reanalyzed as a new noun "pea" /pi/ plus the
regular plural suffix /-z/. By contrast, when we derive "bean"
v.t. from "bean" n., there is no reanalysis.
Robert Bannister
May 28, 2012, 11:13:30 PM5/28/12
to
paintwork. In other words, painting over small scratches.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 28, 2012, 11:18:02 PM5/28/12
to
syllables equal stress, perhaps a bit more "byoo" for the stage and more
"day" for other matters for both noun and verb. The use of a full vowel
"day" sort of stops you from giving a lot of stress to the "byoo",
otherwise it starts moving towards "dibyood", and I know I don't say that.
--
Robert Bannister
Jerry Friedman
May 29, 2012, 1:08:43 AM5/29/12
to
On May 28, 9:18 pm, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> On 29/05/12 1:11 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:>
> > On May 28, 1:08 am, Ian Noble<ipno...@killspam.o2.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
> >> <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> >>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> >>> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> >>> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> >> >from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> >>> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> >>> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
> >> day-byood
>
> >> (In other words, the acute "e" is pronounced, the "t" is silent, and
> >> there's no real stress on either syllable.)
> > ...
>
> > This might be a good time to mention that, according to Prof. Lawler,
> > you have to indicate stress in giving English pronunciations, and I
> > completely agree. It seems particularly helpful for "debut(ed)",
> > where the stress is different in American and British English.
>
> Is it? I'm not at all sure where the stress is - I tend to give both
> syllables equal stress, perhaps a bit more "byoo" for the stage and more
> "day" for other matters for both noun and verb.
That seems to be different. I was thinking that Americans stress the
> On 29/05/12 1:11 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:>
> > On May 28, 1:08 am, Ian Noble<ipno...@killspam.o2.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
> >> <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> >>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
> >>> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
> >>> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
> >> >from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
> >>> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
> >>> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
> >> day-byood
>
> >> (In other words, the acute "e" is pronounced, the "t" is silent, and
> >> there's no real stress on either syllable.)
> > ...
>
> > This might be a good time to mention that, according to Prof. Lawler,
> > you have to indicate stress in giving English pronunciations, and I
> > completely agree. It seems particularly helpful for "debut(ed)",
> > where the stress is different in American and British English.
>
> Is it? I'm not at all sure where the stress is - I tend to give both
> syllables equal stress, perhaps a bit more "byoo" for the stage and more
> "day" for other matters for both noun and verb.
second syllable, whereas Brits stress the first syllable or stress
both about equally. However, M-W gives pronunciations with the accent
on the first and on the second syllable, so I probably should have
said only that the stress is one of the points of difference.
> The use of a full vowel
> "day" sort of stops you from giving a lot of stress to the "byoo",
> otherwise it starts moving towards "dibyood", and I know I don't say that.
hears something like /d@'bjud/ in his part of America.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Barnes
May 29, 2012, 4:15:08 AM5/29/12
to
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com>:
That's "touching up", as you say. Here "detailing" is something else:
going the extra mile or two to produce an impressive shine well beyond
what the normal person would consider "beautifully polished". Can take
days or even weeks.
going the extra mile or two to produce an impressive shine well beyond
what the normal person would consider "beautifully polished". Can take
days or even weeks.
CDB
May 29, 2012, 12:44:16 PM5/29/12
to
On 27/05/2012 9:30 AM, James Silverton wrote:
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun
> and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using
> "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of
> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
It rhymes with "imbued", for me; but I (posting from central Canada) put
> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun
> and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using
> "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of
> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
the stress on the second syllable in both words. I suspect that the BrE
version of the word you're looking at is "DEB you'd".
James Silverton
May 29, 2012, 2:46:15 PM5/29/12
to
doing so recently.
Mike L
May 29, 2012, 4:09:46 PM5/29/12
to
[VALLet]. The Frenchish pronunciation is definitely secondary, though
it must have been used for the full expression "valet de chambre", if
anybody used that in the 20th century. There may have been changes for
when the word's used for car-cleaning services, but that's a pretty
recent Americanism over here: traditionally, that stuff was done by
the chauffeur, not a valet. WIWAL, "valet service" would have
suggested dry-cleaning.
--
Mike.
Mike L
May 29, 2012, 4:15:02 PM5/29/12
to
tricky there's no point in using it. But it's the kind of thing one
sometimes has to read aloud, even if one wouldn't normally say it.
--
Mike.
Andrew B
May 29, 2012, 6:50:03 PM5/29/12
to
On 28/05/2012 02:34, Robert Bannister wrote:
pronounced the s in "rendezvoused".
> On 27/05/12 9:30 PM, James Silverton wrote:
>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the verbal
>> use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun and verb
>> with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using "debuted"
>> from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of "debuted"
>> (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm opinions about
>> pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>
> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other hand,
> we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
Similarly for "ricochet"; on the other hand, I'd be surprised if anyone
> we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
pronounced the s in "rendezvoused".
Robert Bannister
May 29, 2012, 8:59:56 PM5/29/12
to
On 29/05/12 11:11 AM, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> In article<a2isff...@mid.individual.net>,
> Robert Bannister<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> But Mark raised an interesting point: what is the difference between
>> verbing a noun and creating a backformation from one? I get the
>> impression that "backformation" is more trendy.
>
> A back-formation from some word X (whatever part of speech it is)
> reanalyzes it as consisting of some other word Y -- not an etymon of X
> -- plus some affix(es). For example, we say that "pea" is a
> backformation from "pease": the etymologically attested singular is
> "pease", and this was reanalyzed as a new noun "pea" /pi/ plus the
> regular plural suffix /-z/. By contrast, when we derive "bean"
> v.t. from "bean" n., there is no reanalysis.
Which is why I agree with Mark that "to début" is simply verbing the
> In article<a2isff...@mid.individual.net>,
> Robert Bannister<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> But Mark raised an interesting point: what is the difference between
>> verbing a noun and creating a backformation from one? I get the
>> impression that "backformation" is more trendy.
>
> A back-formation from some word X (whatever part of speech it is)
> reanalyzes it as consisting of some other word Y -- not an etymon of X
> -- plus some affix(es). For example, we say that "pea" is a
> backformation from "pease": the etymologically attested singular is
> "pease", and this was reanalyzed as a new noun "pea" /pi/ plus the
> regular plural suffix /-z/. By contrast, when we derive "bean"
> v.t. from "bean" n., there is no reanalysis.
noun "début".
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 29, 2012, 9:04:33 PM5/29/12
to
On 30/05/12 4:09 AM, Mike L wrote:
> On Tue, 29 May 2012 11:10:50 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> On 28/05/12 8:43 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
>>>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>>>
>>> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
>>> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>>>
>>
>> No, because that simply is not true; I have never heard the noun
>> pronounced with a t, but perhaps in your country it is. The problem
>> comes possibly because (almost) nobody has a valet these days, and the
>> verb is mainly used with reference to primping up cars, a business that
>> has its own jargon.
>
> Huh? The correct British pronunciation of "valet", the manservant, is
> [VALLet]. The Frenchish pronunciation is definitely secondary
The Cambridge Dictionary doesn't even admit "valet" with a T. Oxford and
> On Tue, 29 May 2012 11:10:50 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> On 28/05/12 8:43 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
>>>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>>>
>>> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
>>> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>>>
>>
>> No, because that simply is not true; I have never heard the noun
>> pronounced with a t, but perhaps in your country it is. The problem
>> comes possibly because (almost) nobody has a valet these days, and the
>> verb is mainly used with reference to primping up cars, a business that
>> has its own jargon.
>
> Huh? The correct British pronunciation of "valet", the manservant, is
> [VALLet]. The Frenchish pronunciation is definitely secondary
Colon's give both. I have never heard the t pronounced myself ever
except in this new verb for car grooming.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 29, 2012, 9:05:22 PM5/29/12
to
--
Robert Bannister
Mark Brader
May 30, 2012, 1:15:23 AM5/30/12
to
Robert Bannister:
(Well, implied.)
--
Mark Brader "Metal urgy. The urge to use metals.
Toronto That was humans, all right."
m...@vex.net -- Terry Pratchett: Truckers
> Which is why I agree with Mark that "to début" is simply verbing the
> noun "début".
Actually, I said that "to debut" is simply verbing the noun "debut".
> noun "début".
(Well, implied.)
--
Mark Brader "Metal urgy. The urge to use metals.
Toronto That was humans, all right."
m...@vex.net -- Terry Pratchett: Truckers
Mike L
May 30, 2012, 5:34:25 PM5/30/12
to
On Wed, 30 May 2012 09:05:22 +0800, Robert Bannister
secondary: perhaps there's an isogloss going through somewhere near
Bletchley. I still remember when I learned the word: "No man," quoted
my prep-school head, "is a hero to his valet."
--
Mike.
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>On 30/05/12 9:04 AM, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 30/05/12 4:09 AM, Mike L wrote:
>>> On Tue, 29 May 2012 11:10:50 +0800, Robert Bannister
>>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 28/05/12 8:43 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
>>>>>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
>>>>> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, because that simply is not true; I have never heard the noun
>>>> pronounced with a t, but perhaps in your country it is. The problem
>>>> comes possibly because (almost) nobody has a valet these days, and the
>>>> verb is mainly used with reference to primping up cars, a business that
>>>> has its own jargon.
>>>
>>> Huh? The correct British pronunciation of "valet", the manservant, is
>>> [VALLet]. The Frenchish pronunciation is definitely secondary
>>
>> The Cambridge Dictionary doesn't even admit "valet" with a T. Oxford and
>> Colon's give both. I have never heard the t pronounced myself ever
>> except in this new verb for car grooming.
>>
>>
>Damned spelling checker: "Collins".
Impasse. COD and OED give the T version first, with the "ay" as
>On 30/05/12 9:04 AM, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 30/05/12 4:09 AM, Mike L wrote:
>>> On Tue, 29 May 2012 11:10:50 +0800, Robert Bannister
>>> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 28/05/12 8:43 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
>>>>>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>>>>>
>>>>> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
>>>>> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, because that simply is not true; I have never heard the noun
>>>> pronounced with a t, but perhaps in your country it is. The problem
>>>> comes possibly because (almost) nobody has a valet these days, and the
>>>> verb is mainly used with reference to primping up cars, a business that
>>>> has its own jargon.
>>>
>>> Huh? The correct British pronunciation of "valet", the manservant, is
>>> [VALLet]. The Frenchish pronunciation is definitely secondary
>>
>> The Cambridge Dictionary doesn't even admit "valet" with a T. Oxford and
>> Colon's give both. I have never heard the t pronounced myself ever
>> except in this new verb for car grooming.
>>
>>
>Damned spelling checker: "Collins".
secondary: perhaps there's an isogloss going through somewhere near
Bletchley. I still remember when I learned the word: "No man," quoted
my prep-school head, "is a hero to his valet."
--
Mike.
Robert Bannister
May 30, 2012, 7:30:38 PM5/30/12
to
On 30/05/12 1:15 PM, Mark Brader wrote:
> Robert Bannister:
>> Which is why I agree with Mark that "to début" is simply verbing the
>> noun "début".
>
> Actually, I said that "to debut" is simply verbing the noun "debut".
> (Well, implied.)
I am acutelu aware of my faux pas.
> Robert Bannister:
>> Which is why I agree with Mark that "to début" is simply verbing the
>> noun "début".
>
> Actually, I said that "to debut" is simply verbing the noun "debut".
> (Well, implied.)
--
Robert Bannister
Peter Moylan
May 30, 2012, 9:07:20 PM5/30/12
to
Mark Brader
May 31, 2012, 12:28:49 AM5/31/12
to
Robert Bannister:
>>>> Which is why I agree with Mark that "to début" is simply verbing the
>>>> noun "début".
Mark Brader:
>>>> Which is why I agree with Mark that "to début" is simply verbing the
>>>> noun "début".
>>> Actually, I said that "to debut" is simply verbing the noun "debut".
>>> (Well, implied.)
Robert Bannister:
>>> (Well, implied.)
>> I am acutelu aware of my faux pas.
Peter Moylan:
> At least you didn't make a grave error.
If he had, it would be something to be circumflext about.
--
Mark Brader "Those who do not know USENET
Toronto are doomed to repeat each other."
m...@vex.net -- Erik Fair (after George Santayana)
Robert Bannister
May 31, 2012, 7:51:44 PM5/31/12
to
On 31/05/12 9:07 AM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 30/05/12 1:15 PM, Mark Brader wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister:
>>>> Which is why I agree with Mark that "to début" is simply verbing the
>>>> noun "début".
>>>
>>> Actually, I said that "to debut" is simply verbing the noun "debut".
>>> (Well, implied.)
>>
>> I am acutelu aware of my faux pas.
>>
> At least you didn't make a grave error.
>
True, but the band aid on my index finger did something horrible to the
> Robert Bannister wrote:
>> On 30/05/12 1:15 PM, Mark Brader wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister:
>>>> Which is why I agree with Mark that "to début" is simply verbing the
>>>> noun "début".
>>>
>>> Actually, I said that "to debut" is simply verbing the noun "debut".
>>> (Well, implied.)
>>
>> I am acutelu aware of my faux pas.
>>
> At least you didn't make a grave error.
>
Y of 'acutely'. I must be more circumflex in future.
--
Robert Bannister
John Holmes
May 31, 2012, 6:14:21 AM5/31/12
to
Lanarcam wrote:
>> probably pronounce it "dee butted".
>>
>> Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
>>
>>
> It looks like a painful operation, innit?
At least it is reversible. Goats can be easily rebutted.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
> Le 27/05/2012 19:52, Steve Hayes a écrit :
>> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
>> On Sun, 27 May 2012 09:30:26 -0400, James Silverton
>> <jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
>>> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both
>>> noun and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote
>>> using "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the
>>> pronunciation of "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post).
>>> Has anyone firm opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not
>>> give one?
>>
>> I've never had occasion to pronounce it, but if I did I would
>>
>>> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
>>> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both
>>> noun and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote
>>> using "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the
>>> pronunciation of "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post).
>>> Has anyone firm opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not
>>> give one?
>>
>> probably pronounce it "dee butted".
>>
>> Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
>>
>>
> It looks like a painful operation, innit?
At least it is reversible. Goats can be easily rebutted.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Katy Jennison
Jun 1, 2012, 3:58:07 PM6/1/12
to
(kids at a few days old have their horn buds cauterised to stop them
developing). But that, I fancy, is exactly how "de-butted" sounds with
an AmE pronunciation.
--
Katy Jennison
John Holmes
Jun 2, 2012, 1:42:20 AM6/2/12
to
Katy Jennison
Jun 2, 2012, 11:36:47 AM6/2/12
to
--
Katy Jennison
Mike L
Jun 2, 2012, 4:35:45 PM6/2/12
to
On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 20:58:07 +0100, Katy Jennison
<ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:
>On 31/05/2012 11:14, John Holmes wrote:
>> Lanarcam wrote:
>>> Le 27/05/2012 19:52, Steve Hayes a écrit :
[...]
<ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:
>On 31/05/2012 11:14, John Holmes wrote:
>> Lanarcam wrote:
>>> Le 27/05/2012 19:52, Steve Hayes a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
>>>>
>>>>
Army mules used to be devocalized for special ops.
>>>> Dogs are debarked, cows are dehorned, and goats must be debutted.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It looks like a painful operation, innit?
>>
>> At least it is reversible. Goats can be easily rebutted.
>>
>
>I've suddenly spotted a Pondiality. IRL, goats are actually "de-budded"
>(kids at a few days old have their horn buds cauterised to stop them
>developing). But that, I fancy, is exactly how "de-butted" sounds with
>an AmE pronunciation.
(Yes, in case anybody's wondering, you do give them a local
anaesthetic first.)
--
Mike.
Katy Jennison
Jun 2, 2012, 5:03:26 PM6/2/12
to
--
Katy Jennison
Mike L
Jun 3, 2012, 1:35:50 PM6/3/12
to
On Sat, 02 Jun 2012 22:03:26 +0100, Katy Jennison
does the stockman's sense of "disbud". I've added it to my
OED-bothering list.
--
Mike.
<ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:
>On 02/06/2012 21:35, Mike L wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 20:58:07 +0100, Katy Jennison
>> <ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:
[...]
>On 02/06/2012 21:35, Mike L wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Jun 2012 20:58:07 +0100, Katy Jennison
>> <ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:
>>> I've suddenly spotted a Pondiality. IRL, goats are actually "de-budded"
>>> (kids at a few days old have their horn buds cauterised to stop them
>>> developing). But that, I fancy, is exactly how "de-butted" sounds with
>>> an AmE pronunciation.
>>
>> Never done it to kids, but when I did it to calves it was "DISbudded".
>> (Yes, in case anybody's wondering, you do give them a local
>> anaesthetic first.)
>>
>
>They seem to be alternative terms for the same thing.
"Debud" doesn't seem to have reached OED yet; interestingly, neither
>>> (kids at a few days old have their horn buds cauterised to stop them
>>> developing). But that, I fancy, is exactly how "de-butted" sounds with
>>> an AmE pronunciation.
>>
>> Never done it to kids, but when I did it to calves it was "DISbudded".
>> (Yes, in case anybody's wondering, you do give them a local
>> anaesthetic first.)
>>
>
>They seem to be alternative terms for the same thing.
does the stockman's sense of "disbud". I've added it to my
OED-bothering list.
--
Mike.
Charles Bishop
Jun 5, 2012, 10:10:21 PM6/5/12
to
In article <a2la15...@mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister
I was watching "Jeeves and Wooster" and Stephen Fry pronounced the t in
valet. I had assumed he was using a correct pronounciation for the 1920s
(more or less).
--
charles
valet. I had assumed he was using a correct pronounciation for the 1920s
(more or less).
--
charles
Charles Bishop
Jun 5, 2012, 10:12:56 PM6/5/12
to
In article <VOHv9XBM...@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>,
Here "detailing a car" is to clean, wash and polish it very well. Cleaning
in all the small cracks and crevices, wiping down all surfaces, inside and
out. Costs much more than a simple car wash and clean.
--
charles
in all the small cracks and crevices, wiping down all surfaces, inside and
out. Costs much more than a simple car wash and clean.
--
charles
Peter Brooks
Jun 6, 2012, 12:25:17 AM6/6/12
to
On Jun 6, 4:10 am, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
> In article <a2la15Fue...@mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister
- nothing to do with the '20s.
> In article <a2la15Fue...@mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >On 30/05/12 4:09 AM, Mike L wrote:
> >> On Tue, 29 May 2012 11:10:50 +0800, Robert Bannister
> >> <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >On 30/05/12 4:09 AM, Mike L wrote:
> >> On Tue, 29 May 2012 11:10:50 +0800, Robert Bannister
>
> >>> On 28/05/12 8:43 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> >>>>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
> >>>>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>
> >>>> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
> >>>> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>
> >>> No, because that simply is not true; I have never heard the noun
> >>> pronounced with a t, but perhaps in your country it is. The problem
> >>> comes possibly because (almost) nobody has a valet these days, and the
> >>> verb is mainly used with reference to primping up cars, a business that
> >>> has its own jargon.
>
> >> Huh? The correct British pronunciation of "valet", the manservant, is
> >> [VALLet]. The Frenchish pronunciation is definitely secondary
>
> >The Cambridge Dictionary doesn't even admit "valet" with a T. Oxford and
> >Colon's give both. I have never heard the t pronounced myself ever
> >except in this new verb for car grooming.
>
> I was watching "Jeeves and Wooster" and Stephen Fry pronounced the t in
> valet. I had assumed he was using a correct pronounciation for the 1920s
> (more or less).
>
No, not at all! He was simply using the correct English pronunciation
> >>> On 28/05/12 8:43 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:34:16 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> >>>>> "day-byoo-d" - it's been around for a long time now. On the other
> >>>>> hand, we have both "va-laid" and "va-lett-ed".
>
> >>>> Isn't that because the noun is "valet", with t pronounced, an
> >>>> pronouncing it "val-lay" is a genteelism?
>
> >>> No, because that simply is not true; I have never heard the noun
> >>> pronounced with a t, but perhaps in your country it is. The problem
> >>> comes possibly because (almost) nobody has a valet these days, and the
> >>> verb is mainly used with reference to primping up cars, a business that
> >>> has its own jargon.
>
> >> Huh? The correct British pronunciation of "valet", the manservant, is
> >> [VALLet]. The Frenchish pronunciation is definitely secondary
>
> >The Cambridge Dictionary doesn't even admit "valet" with a T. Oxford and
> >Colon's give both. I have never heard the t pronounced myself ever
> >except in this new verb for car grooming.
>
> I was watching "Jeeves and Wooster" and Stephen Fry pronounced the t in
> valet. I had assumed he was using a correct pronounciation for the 1920s
> (more or less).
>
- nothing to do with the '20s.
R H Draney
Jun 6, 2012, 12:42:26 AM6/6/12
to
Peter Brooks filted:
hotel in the segregated South refuses to let both The Crickets and Sam Cooke
share the same suite...Cooke insists that his three valets must be close by if
he needs them, and the disbelieving desk clerk asks "you have three *white*
valets?"...r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
>
>On Jun 6, 4:10=A0am, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
>>
>> I was watching "Jeeves and Wooster" and Stephen Fry pronounced the t in
>> valet. I had assumed he was using a correct pronounciation for the 1920s
>> (more or less).
>>
>No, not at all! He was simply using the correct English pronunciation
>- nothing to do with the '20s.
The same pronunciation was used in the movie "The Buddy Holly Story" when a
>On Jun 6, 4:10=A0am, ctbis...@earthlink.net (Charles Bishop) wrote:
>>
>> I was watching "Jeeves and Wooster" and Stephen Fry pronounced the t in
>> valet. I had assumed he was using a correct pronounciation for the 1920s
>> (more or less).
>>
>No, not at all! He was simply using the correct English pronunciation
>- nothing to do with the '20s.
hotel in the segregated South refuses to let both The Crickets and Sam Cooke
share the same suite...Cooke insists that his three valets must be close by if
he needs them, and the disbelieving desk clerk asks "you have three *white*
valets?"...r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Katy Jennison
Jun 6, 2012, 5:30:48 AM6/6/12
to
until I was brought up short by it in "Downton Abbey", and I assumed
that it was done to appeal to the American market.
Maybe I've been wrong this half-century or more, though. It's one of
those things which I must remember to ask my 101-year-old aunt about. I
rather think she probably knew people with valets back in the '20s.
--
Katy Jennison
Nick Spalding
Jun 6, 2012, 6:04:43 AM6/6/12
to
Katy Jennison wrote, in <jqn808$797$1...@news.albasani.net>
on Wed, 06 Jun 2012 10:30:48 +0100:
I never heard it either, nor did I ever hear it verbed other than from
American sources.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
on Wed, 06 Jun 2012 10:30:48 +0100:
American sources.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
James Hogg
Jun 6, 2012, 7:12:35 AM6/6/12
to
indicating that both pronunciations have existed side by side.
There's a rhyme from 1691:
That Gentleman does much himself forget,
Who in his Chamber has not French Vallet.
And a spelling "vallie" from 1719.
--
James
LFS
Jun 6, 2012, 7:13:37 AM6/6/12
to
>
> Maybe I've been wrong this half-century or more, though. It's one of
> those things which I must remember to ask my 101-year-old aunt about. I
> rather think she probably knew people with valets back in the '20s.
>
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
James Hogg
Jun 6, 2012, 7:20:35 AM6/6/12
to
pronunciation first, the "vallay" in square brackets, used for forms
that, "although widely used, are somewhat less common than the
unenclosed form."
--
James
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Jun 6, 2012, 7:29:09 AM6/6/12
to
> It's one of
>those things which I must remember to ask my 101-year-old aunt about. I
>rather think she probably knew people with valets back in the '20s.
--
(in alt.usage.english)
Nick Spalding
Jun 6, 2012, 7:51:04 AM6/6/12
to
LFS wrote, in <a38sb9...@mid.individual.net>
on Wed, 06 Jun 2012 12:13:37 +0100:
I wonder if mine did as a young thing at Cambridge in the late 1930s or
at Bletchley Park during the war. After that she became a nun. She's
only 93 though.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
on Wed, 06 Jun 2012 12:13:37 +0100:
at Bletchley Park during the war. After that she became a nun. She's
only 93 though.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Steve Hayes
Jun 6, 2012, 1:12:05 PM6/6/12
to
On Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:20:35 +0200, James Hogg <Jas....@gOUTmail.com> wrote:
>Daniel Jones, in his English Pronouncing Dictionary, puts the "vallit"
>pronunciation first, the "vallay" in square brackets, used for forms
>that, "although widely used, are somewhat less common than the
>unenclosed form."
I've just been reading "By hook or by crook: a journey bin search of English"
>Daniel Jones, in his English Pronouncing Dictionary, puts the "vallit"
>pronunciation first, the "vallay" in square brackets, used for forms
>that, "although widely used, are somewhat less common than the
>unenclosed form."
by David Crystal.
One bit I read today was this:
"_Believe nothing_ had one of the best pieces of word-play ever. In one
episode Albumen (the valet) is under the weather and looks awful. Cnut asks
Hannah to check up on him, then asks her 'How green is my valet?'"
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
R H Draney
Jun 6, 2012, 8:13:46 PM6/6/12
to
Steve Hayes filted:
>
>One bit I read today was this:
>
>"_Believe nothing_ had one of the best pieces of word-play ever. In one
>episode Albumen (the valet) is under the weather and looks awful. Cnut asks
>Hannah to check up on him, then asks her 'How green is my valet?'"
First Feghoot of summer?...r
>One bit I read today was this:
>
>"_Believe nothing_ had one of the best pieces of word-play ever. In one
>episode Albumen (the valet) is under the weather and looks awful. Cnut asks
>Hannah to check up on him, then asks her 'How green is my valet?'"
Robert Bannister
Jun 6, 2012, 9:43:00 PM6/6/12
to
--
Robert Bannister
Charles Bellemare
Jun 10, 2012, 8:42:51 AM6/10/12
to
On May 29, 2:46 pm, James Silverton <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On 5/29/2012 12:44 PM, CDB wrote:
> > the stress on the second syllable in both words. I suspect that the BrE
> > version of the word you're looking at is "DEB you'd".
>
> I wonder how often you use the word in speech? I can't recall anyone
> doing so recently.
>
> --
> Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
>
> Extraneous "not" in Reply To.
I <blush> subvocalise when I read.
> On 5/29/2012 12:44 PM, CDB wrote:
>
> > On 27/05/2012 9:30 AM, James Silverton wrote:
> >> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> >> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
> >> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun
> >> and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using
> >> "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of
> >> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
> >> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
> > It rhymes with "imbued", for me; but I (posting from central Canada) put
> > On 27/05/2012 9:30 AM, James Silverton wrote:
> >> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
> >> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
> >> verbal use, arising from the French "débuter", tho' it lists both noun
> >> and verb with an acute accent, as in "début". There is a quote using
> >> "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of
> >> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
> >> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
> > the stress on the second syllable in both words. I suspect that the BrE
> > version of the word you're looking at is "DEB you'd".
>
> I wonder how often you use the word in speech? I can't recall anyone
> doing so recently.
>
> --
> Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
>
> Extraneous "not" in Reply To.
I <blush> subvocalise when I read.
Mike L
Jun 10, 2012, 5:49:20 PM6/10/12
to
Caesar, J., was famous among his contemporaries for being able to read
silently - and his works, though stylish, are in prose.
--
Mike.
Evan Kirshenbaum
Jun 10, 2012, 8:32:32 PM6/10/12
to
Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 05:42:51 -0700 (PDT), Charles Bellemare
> <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On May 29, 2:46�pm, James Silverton <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On 5/29/2012 12:44 PM, CDB wrote:
>>>
>>> > On 27/05/2012 9:30 AM, James Silverton wrote:
>>> >> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>> >> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
>>> >> verbal use, arising from the French "d�buter", tho' it lists both noun
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 05:42:51 -0700 (PDT), Charles Bellemare
> <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On May 29, 2:46�pm, James Silverton <jim.silver...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On 5/29/2012 12:44 PM, CDB wrote:
>>>
>>> > On 27/05/2012 9:30 AM, James Silverton wrote:
>>> >> Reading the Washington Post this morning, I came across the word
>>> >> "debuted" as a past tense use of debut. The OED acknowledges the
>>> >> and verb with an acute accent, as in "d�but". There is a quote using
>>> >> "debuted" from 1830. I find myself in doubt as to the pronunciation of
>>> >> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
>>> >> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>>> > It rhymes with "imbued", for me; but I (posting from central Canada) put
>>> > the stress on the second syllable in both words. I suspect that the BrE
>>> > version of the word you're looking at is "DEB you'd".
>>>
>>> I wonder how often you use the word in speech? I can't recall
>>> anyone doing so recently.
>>>
>>> >> "debuted" (omitting the accent as does the Post). Has anyone firm
>>> >> opinions about pronunciation since the OED does not give one?
>>> > It rhymes with "imbued", for me; but I (posting from central Canada) put
>>> > the stress on the second syllable in both words. I suspect that the BrE
>>> > version of the word you're looking at is "DEB you'd".
>>>
>>> I wonder how often you use the word in speech? I can't recall
>>> anyone doing so recently.
>>>
>>I <blush> subvocalise when I read.
As do I.
> No call for rubefaction: it's the mark of a poetic ear. Note that
> Caesar, J., was famous among his contemporaries for being able to read
> silently - and his works, though stylish, are in prose.
silently:
Now, as he read, his eyes glanced over the pages and his heart
searched out the sense, but his voice and tongue were silent.
Often when we came to his room--for no one was forbidden to
enter, nor was it his custom that the arrival of visitors should
be announced to him--we would see him thus reading to
himself. After we had sat for a long time in silence--for who
would dare interrupt one so intent?--we would then depart,
realizing that he was unwilling to be distracted in the little
time he could gain for the recruiting of his mind, free from the
clamor of other men's business. Perhaps he was fearful lest, if
the author he was studying should express himself vaguely, some
doubtful and attentive hearer would ask him to expound it or
discuss some of the more abstruse questions, so that he could not
get over as much material as he wished, if his time was occupied
with others. And even a truer reason for his reading to himself
might have been the care for preserving his voice, which was very
easily weakened. Whatever his motive was in so doing, it was
doubtless, in such a man, a good one. [_Confessions_, Bk. 6,
Ch. 3]
When I looked into this in 1999, I found an assertion that silent
reading, presumably with subvocalization, only became widespread
between the eleventh and early thirteen centuries, and Oxford
University library didn't order it until 1412.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |The purpose of writing is to inflate
SF Bay Area (1982-) |weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning,
Chicago (1964-1982) |and inhibit clarity. With a little
|practice, writing can be an
evan.kir...@gmail.com |intimidating and impenetrable fog!
| Calvin
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Jerry Friedman
Jun 10, 2012, 9:27:06 PM6/10/12
to
> I <blush> subvocalise when I read.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike L
Jun 11, 2012, 4:28:08 PM6/11/12
to
--
Mike.
James Silverton
Jun 11, 2012, 5:34:09 PM6/11/12
to
Haredim of Israel, still go in for it.
Mike L
Jun 11, 2012, 6:00:48 PM6/11/12
to
On Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:34:09 -0400, James Silverton
<jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On 6/11/2012 4:28 PM, Mike L wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:32:32 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
>> <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike L<n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 05:42:51 -0700 (PDT), Charles Bellemare
>>>> <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
<jim.si...@verizon.net> wrote:
>On 6/11/2012 4:28 PM, Mike L wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:32:32 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
>> <evan.kir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike L<n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012 05:42:51 -0700 (PDT), Charles Bellemare
>>>> <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
--
Mike.
LFS
Jun 12, 2012, 12:17:02 PM6/12/12
to
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